Show HN: Fire UK Calculator and Visualiser(fire.picheta.me)
fire.picheta.me
Show HN: Fire UK Calculator and Visualiser
https://fire.picheta.me/uk
61 comments
Good point. I will look into switching to using # instead.
It’s really good.
I agree with the state pension comment.
Maybe add as an additional income with a few settings set to suitable defaults
- start age (66)
- weekly amount (£203.85)
- yearly increase (3%)
I’m not super optimistic about the triple lock being a thing for much longer. But I feel like there’ll still be something (albeit very late and very small in inflation adjusted terms). Having this in the calculator can let you play with the different scenarios.
I agree with the state pension comment.
Maybe add as an additional income with a few settings set to suitable defaults
- start age (66)
- weekly amount (£203.85)
- yearly increase (3%)
I’m not super optimistic about the triple lock being a thing for much longer. But I feel like there’ll still be something (albeit very late and very small in inflation adjusted terms). Having this in the calculator can let you play with the different scenarios.
The default assumption here that someone has £30,000 per year to put into savings seems a little bit high for most UK salaries?
I think the assumption is that you need a high salary to do FIRE generally.
It's definitely dependent on COL in area where you choose to retire, and what your expected spending is in retirement. Whether you decide to have children also has a pretty big impact. DINKs with a relatively modest income can still FIRE with substantial nest-eggs if their saving % is aggressive.
There's also been a cultural shift around FIRE in the last 10 or so years. The original mindset was focused on pretty extreme thriftiness and a general DIY approach to lowering annual expenses to maximize saving rate. Nowadays, the focus is much more on getting the biggest number possible, and maintaining a fairly affluent and luxurious (by early FIRE standards) lifestyle into retirement. To some extent that shift was fed by the money-printer near zero bound interest rate boom years of '08 to '19, so it will be interesting to see whether it maintains that trajectory.
There's also been a cultural shift around FIRE in the last 10 or so years. The original mindset was focused on pretty extreme thriftiness and a general DIY approach to lowering annual expenses to maximize saving rate. Nowadays, the focus is much more on getting the biggest number possible, and maintaining a fairly affluent and luxurious (by early FIRE standards) lifestyle into retirement. To some extent that shift was fed by the money-printer near zero bound interest rate boom years of '08 to '19, so it will be interesting to see whether it maintains that trajectory.
If that were true then the UK would have a bigger startup scene than the US? No decent SWE works for less than $200k p/a even if that means going solo (contract/entrepreneur) when facing a devalued local market
London has some of the highest dev salaries in Europe. But, you'd be lucky to get close to a US SWE salary here. Not that those jobs don't exist (I have one), but definitely the US SWE salary experience is not representative of the UK.
lol
Typical senior software engineer salaries in the UK are around £60-90k outside of London (and you see adverts for as low as £45k!), a bit more in London / Fintech, up to around £120k.
For a regular SWE, $200k (~£160k) is ludicrous for the UK market, but please feel free to offer me a job for that or point me toward the job postings that offer that.
Going contract may be better, but keep in mind you spend time between jobs and chasing leads, and you're unlikely to get a stable years-long contract, especially post IR35 when HMRC will determine you to be a hidden employee (and rightfully so).
For a regular SWE, $200k (~£160k) is ludicrous for the UK market, but please feel free to offer me a job for that or point me toward the job postings that offer that.
Going contract may be better, but keep in mind you spend time between jobs and chasing leads, and you're unlikely to get a stable years-long contract, especially post IR35 when HMRC will determine you to be a hidden employee (and rightfully so).
Not sure I understand you? UK tech salaries are a good bit less than the US, although still on the higher side compared to the non-US Western eorld. And the UK has the biggest startup scene outside the US or China.
I know a few people on ~£140k which is definitely high, but getting much past that is harder. Most mid-to-senior developers I know (in and around London) are on £65k to £120k.
I know a few people on ~£140k which is definitely high, but getting much past that is harder. Most mid-to-senior developers I know (in and around London) are on £65k to £120k.
This is a depressing website, and I'm on an alright contract (well, now in my 40s).
Anyone want to work out what % of people this applies to ?
I can think of very few people who had 100k savings by the age of 30, this seems insane Vs normality.
Anyone want to work out what % of people this applies to ?
I can think of very few people who had 100k savings by the age of 30, this seems insane Vs normality.
Remember, in the UK you don't get rich by working, you get rich by starting off rich.
Everything is stacked against you if you start off with no funds. Especially if you get into the rent trap and the car trap.
I was still in the negative at 30.
If you were able to buy a property in your early 20s (ie. someone gave you the money) then you could easily be over 100k by 30. You don't mention whether you own your house or not. If you do then a £40k/year lifestyle living in your own home seems ridiculously lavish. Or you could consider your house an investment and I guess put it under ISA as you won't get taxed on liquidating your home.
If you were actually aware of FIRE at 20, made it a goal, didn't buy a car, bought a modest flat or something in a city, then I think this is quite doable. Only the rich can have their cake and eat it too, though.
Everything is stacked against you if you start off with no funds. Especially if you get into the rent trap and the car trap.
I was still in the negative at 30.
If you were able to buy a property in your early 20s (ie. someone gave you the money) then you could easily be over 100k by 30. You don't mention whether you own your house or not. If you do then a £40k/year lifestyle living in your own home seems ridiculously lavish. Or you could consider your house an investment and I guess put it under ISA as you won't get taxed on liquidating your home.
If you were actually aware of FIRE at 20, made it a goal, didn't buy a car, bought a modest flat or something in a city, then I think this is quite doable. Only the rich can have their cake and eat it too, though.
There are still some small amounts of opportunities that can allow you to come from a poor background and become well off. I'm mainly thinking of tech jobs that pay well, but yes even with those there is a lot of luck involved.
I'm in my late 20s now and doing pretty well because of a combination of luck and because I am passionate about programming (and have been from an early age). So there are paths, though I agree they are tough.
And I agree, having rich parents is definitely playing life on easy mode.
I'm in my late 20s now and doing pretty well because of a combination of luck and because I am passionate about programming (and have been from an early age). So there are paths, though I agree they are tough.
And I agree, having rich parents is definitely playing life on easy mode.
You can certainly become well off from a poor background. Whether you can be well off and retire early is a completely different matter.
It also depends massively on your definition of well off. It tends to mean "at least as good as my parents". People don't really even acknowledge lifestyles at a level significantly below that of their parents.
The right combination is probably poor/frugal parents/upbringing and a gift for something like programming: a "new" field that pays well but doesn't require the "gift of the gab" and connections that are found in long-standing well-off families and valued in "traditional" fields.
The worst combination would be ending up in a "traditional" field with parents who are well off from a "new" field but have neither the bullshit nor the connections, and who live their lives to the absolute fullest, leaving nothing behind when they go.
It's not fair. Perhaps the people campaigning for equality will one day realise it's not really about race or sex or much else, it's about inheritance.
But it's not all gloom. You only really need to see positive change in your life to be happy. Absolute standing in society doesn't mean much above a certain level (see the hedonic treadmill).
It also depends massively on your definition of well off. It tends to mean "at least as good as my parents". People don't really even acknowledge lifestyles at a level significantly below that of their parents.
The right combination is probably poor/frugal parents/upbringing and a gift for something like programming: a "new" field that pays well but doesn't require the "gift of the gab" and connections that are found in long-standing well-off families and valued in "traditional" fields.
The worst combination would be ending up in a "traditional" field with parents who are well off from a "new" field but have neither the bullshit nor the connections, and who live their lives to the absolute fullest, leaving nothing behind when they go.
It's not fair. Perhaps the people campaigning for equality will one day realise it's not really about race or sex or much else, it's about inheritance.
But it's not all gloom. You only really need to see positive change in your life to be happy. Absolute standing in society doesn't mean much above a certain level (see the hedonic treadmill).
I’m in the US, but most have way more than that by 30, in software.
By "in software" you are meaning startup/FAANG, not software development in general where the average salary is still sub $100k, and depending on where you live as little as $50k for a starting salary.
As a 22 or 23 year old getting your first job at $50k, your living expenses will take most of your salary. After a few years you might be able to jump to a better paying mid-level developer.
So at 28, you could be making $75k throughout most of the central US. Your life style will likely have changed, and you now have a wife, potentially a kid, so living expenses still take up 70-80% of your take home. Hopefully you are able to put away $10k/yr into your personal retirement, and you've been getting your full company match that maxes at 2% (this is standard at most corporate developer jobs). So your 401k might have around $40k in it now, which is great. Your ROTH has another $15-20k probably.
At 30, you finally hit your big 3-0. Your 401k has been growing nicely, and you now have $75k in it, and your ROTH is sitting pretty at $25k, only 15 years left until retirement! You have hit $100k by 30!
Wait, you were talking about £... Well, you still have a ways to go, you only have £80k.
As a 22 or 23 year old getting your first job at $50k, your living expenses will take most of your salary. After a few years you might be able to jump to a better paying mid-level developer.
So at 28, you could be making $75k throughout most of the central US. Your life style will likely have changed, and you now have a wife, potentially a kid, so living expenses still take up 70-80% of your take home. Hopefully you are able to put away $10k/yr into your personal retirement, and you've been getting your full company match that maxes at 2% (this is standard at most corporate developer jobs). So your 401k might have around $40k in it now, which is great. Your ROTH has another $15-20k probably.
At 30, you finally hit your big 3-0. Your 401k has been growing nicely, and you now have $75k in it, and your ROTH is sitting pretty at $25k, only 15 years left until retirement! You have hit $100k by 30!
Wait, you were talking about £... Well, you still have a ways to go, you only have £80k.
I have never worked in startups or FAANG. I’ve only worked at shitcos, and pay is up!
I’m up to nearly 300k comp at shitco, without the terrible life commitment and uncertainty of startups.
I’m up to nearly 300k comp at shitco, without the terrible life commitment and uncertainty of startups.
What are these shitcos you speak of?
That is not normal in the UK, even for software developers.
People in the UK in software generally make a fraction (under half) of what those in the US do, and will have much, much, much lower savings, on average.
Early retirement is not normal.
Tbh most of the interesting retirement planning problems are in planning for life events along the way.
The advantage of proper modelling solutions like Voyant is that you can see your cash flows across your entire life and see what happens long term if you pay down your mortgage by 10% more or 10% less for the next few year, or if you add a change in 5 years time where you start paying £1500/mo for childcare
I'm currently slamming my pension for example because I know in the near future, if I have kids or remortgage (due in 3 years), I won't be able to afford to do so (on my current salary)
The advantage of proper modelling solutions like Voyant is that you can see your cash flows across your entire life and see what happens long term if you pay down your mortgage by 10% more or 10% less for the next few year, or if you add a change in 5 years time where you start paying £1500/mo for childcare
I'm currently slamming my pension for example because I know in the near future, if I have kids or remortgage (due in 3 years), I won't be able to afford to do so (on my current salary)
True. But I would say there is a place for simpler tools too, and that is what I aim to build with this calculator. Plus you can go a long a way to factoring in big life changes even with the simple inputs currently provided.
Btw did you misspell Voyuent? I can't find it anywhere.
Btw did you misspell Voyuent? I can't find it anywhere.
Voyant
https://www.planwithvoyant.co.uk/content/en_GB/index.html
Unfortunately the cheapest sort of access to this product is around £120/yr via an advisor sponsored subscription, but the insights they provide are nothing short of comprehensive
I pay it, but it is pricey for something you might want to look at just once or twice a year.
A freely accessible alternative is called Timeline (https://www.timeline.co/, sign up as an advisor and add yourself as a client), but it's nowhere near as comprehensive at calculating all your tax burdens and optimizing things etc.
There's a fair amount of tactics in working over the tax system to achieve better outcomes.
https://www.planwithvoyant.co.uk/content/en_GB/index.html
Unfortunately the cheapest sort of access to this product is around £120/yr via an advisor sponsored subscription, but the insights they provide are nothing short of comprehensive
I pay it, but it is pricey for something you might want to look at just once or twice a year.
A freely accessible alternative is called Timeline (https://www.timeline.co/, sign up as an advisor and add yourself as a client), but it's nowhere near as comprehensive at calculating all your tax burdens and optimizing things etc.
There's a fair amount of tactics in working over the tax system to achieve better outcomes.
I tried signing up to timeline, unfortunately have to pay for a trial in order to see the plan for a client
A tool [0] that has a free tier and was quite fun to play around with was posted a little bit ago, projectionlab.
[0]: https://projectionlab.com
[0]: https://projectionlab.com
Check out https://savingtool.co.uk for a similar tool, but it does tax calculations too.
Nice, thanks for the suggestion. Definitely feels a lot more advanced (which can be both a bad and a good thing).
This is slightly confusing - it seems to factor in some magical S&S ISA income regardless of what amounts I put into existing S&S ISA.
I am assuming it thinks that I will always entirely fill a S&S ISA allowance each yaer in addition to pension contributions, mortgage, bills, food etc.
I think that is a bit of a flaw and I guess that means none of the figures can be trusted.
I am assuming it thinks that I will always entirely fill a S&S ISA allowance each yaer in addition to pension contributions, mortgage, bills, food etc.
I think that is a bit of a flaw and I guess that means none of the figures can be trusted.
It assumes that you invest your surplus fully into an S&S ISA up to the annual limit. If that isn't true, you can adjust spending.
Full disclosure though, it doesn't currently support GIAs. That would typically come after you've filled a S&S ISA which doesn't apply to most people.
Full disclosure though, it doesn't currently support GIAs. That would typically come after you've filled a S&S ISA which doesn't apply to most people.
> That would typically come after you've filled a S&S ISA which doesn't apply to most people.
Much more likely to apply to people with a high salary going for FIRE, though.
Much more likely to apply to people with a high salary going for FIRE, though.
This doesn't factor in the state pension, right?
Indeed it doesn't.
What about tax on private pension withdrawals?
It's on my todo to implement this in some form, but not accounted for yet.
But you can reduce the returns percentage on your investments to account for it. Note though that pension tax relief also isn't accounted for in the numbers, so take that into consideration when adjusting.
But you can reduce the returns percentage on your investments to account for it. Note though that pension tax relief also isn't accounted for in the numbers, so take that into consideration when adjusting.
I agree that adding state pension would be useful, though that's another layer of maintenance...
Real slick though and very clear, thanks for putting it together! Would you mind sharing a bit about what you're using underneath, as this doesn't look like the usual Shiny-type interface.
Real slick though and very clear, thanks for putting it together! Would you mind sharing a bit about what you're using underneath, as this doesn't look like the usual Shiny-type interface.
Thanks for the kind words!
I'm using Tailwind + React + recharts. The design itself is pretty custom and doesn't use anything off-the-shelf. I basically use Tailwind like a different syntax for CSS.
I'm using Tailwind + React + recharts. The design itself is pretty custom and doesn't use anything off-the-shelf. I basically use Tailwind like a different syntax for CSS.
Nice. I made something similar a couple of years ago: https://www.colorfulwolf.com/retirement/
Cool! I might add links to these in my tool so folks can find alternatives. For me at least, I've been loving the ability to try many different tools and compare how my visualisation differs between them. So I hope others would like that too.
Really nice piece of work. Very easy to understand.
It would be good if it could tell you a retirement spending number given all the other constraints (assuming you want to draw down most of your funds eventually).
It would be good if it could tell you a retirement spending number given all the other constraints (assuming you want to draw down most of your funds eventually).
Thanks!
Just to make sure I understand your suggestion correctly: you mean you input your earnings and age of retirement and the tool tells you how much you should spend to use up all of your money by the time you are dead?
Might be nice, but I'd say you can figure that out fairly easily by just adjusting the numbers in the tool as it is currently.
Just to make sure I understand your suggestion correctly: you mean you input your earnings and age of retirement and the tool tells you how much you should spend to use up all of your money by the time you are dead?
Might be nice, but I'd say you can figure that out fairly easily by just adjusting the numbers in the tool as it is currently.
Yes, that’s what I mean. And you are right, adjusting the numbers works. I suggested it after upping my monthly savings inputs and then noticed that at end-of-life there was still a huge pension pot. Then I fiddled with the spending figure.
Nice.
Does GIA mean General Investment Account? Maybe some tooltips?
Nice job. I also didn't know what GIA was and would appreciate some tooltips.
yes. GIAs are taxed. ISAs (individual savings account) aren’t, but have a cap at £20k per year.
What is “Safe withdrawal rate”? Also does it take into account capital gains on GIA?
For the purposes of this calculator it is only used to calculate your "FIRE number" (represented as a dashed blue line on the chart).
For more info see https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/safe-withdrawal-rate-sw...
For more info see https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/safe-withdrawal-rate-sw...
I noticed that it doesn't seem to take into account the state pension, which could be a considerable chunk for some people. You can kind of simulate this by reducing your spendings, but the state pension age might be later than your retirement age, so this isn't a perfect work around.
Also the link seems to use standard query parameters, which makes sense, but as it's all running in Javascript, it'd maybe be nice to get the parameters after # instead so that they aren't sent to your server when re-loading from a link. Coupled with an IP address, there's a chance you might be accidentally logging PII information otherwise.