Ask HN: How do you know it's time for you to quit your FAANG job?
80 comments
You might want to edit your post. It seems like you're asking when to go full time on your startup, but you haven't made that context sufficiently clear, and people will have to read between the lines to get that. A lot of people quit FAANG jobs for reasons that have nothing to do with going full time on a startup.
Thanks! I don't know HackerNews even have the editing feature... but will make that more clear next time!
I left a FAANG-like job in 2016 (VP, CTO) to join a startup.
It was a disaster.
I then co-founded a startup.
I left two years later, parted ways with the other two co-founders in a friendly way.
All this time, I funded my life with my savings.
I had enough on the side to do that, and thankfully other things went well in my life, so I don't really regret it, but...
If I could go back, I'd simply tell myself that most of the time, quitting a well-paying job if you are not in a F*ck-you money [0] territory, is a bad idea.
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XamC7-Pt8N0
It was a disaster.
I then co-founded a startup.
I left two years later, parted ways with the other two co-founders in a friendly way.
All this time, I funded my life with my savings.
I had enough on the side to do that, and thankfully other things went well in my life, so I don't really regret it, but...
If I could go back, I'd simply tell myself that most of the time, quitting a well-paying job if you are not in a F*ck-you money [0] territory, is a bad idea.
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XamC7-Pt8N0
As I get older this more and more seems like the way. I have friends with 10+ years at a single job. They work 2-4 hours a day remotely and are so senior they would be very difficult to replace. They will easily be able to retire in their early 40s.
Meanwhile I have done 1-3 years at a bunch of different places, tried to start my own things, and am still grinding out 10 hour days.
100% I am seeing this alot
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> They work 2-4 hours a day remotely and are so senior they would be very difficult to replace.
Everyone is replaceable. I'd argue this is entirely the continuance of zero-rate interest phenomenon and corporations are waking up to it. e.g. Google just announced more layoffs this morning.
Everyone is replaceable. I'd argue this is entirely the continuance of zero-rate interest phenomenon and corporations are waking up to it. e.g. Google just announced more layoffs this morning.
It's truly lame and over-resourced management that allows this practice. I'd argue it signifies a lack of good management practice if the bus factor is high and the actual utilization is low.
I can't fault the engineer for taking advantage if they can.
I can't fault the engineer for taking advantage if they can.
Yep. I did the exact same thing ~10ish years ago - leaving my job at Google to run my own startup for 2.5 years. I burned through most of my savings. In the meantime, I watched as my former colleagues got numerous promotions and made more and more money.
I wouldn't trade the perspective I got from the experience, but it was extremely emotionally painful.
I wouldn't trade the perspective I got from the experience, but it was extremely emotionally painful.
Did you launch the startup because you expected to make money, or because you thought the product was worthwhile and you wanted to build it?
Both at the time. In retrospect, I was extremely naive, and I was building something I thought was "cool" instead of something that people would really want.
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Similar story, but went back to FAANG
> thankfully other things went well in my life
Like what?
Like what?
You should realize that faang swe income, on a risk adjusted basis, is the best you will get. Hold on as long as possible and invest your earnings into the stock market. Ignore the noise. You quit when you have enough to retire
I think you can go higher working in finance, trading etc as a SWE. However, it's more difficult to get through the door.
> However, it's more difficult to get through the door.
Indeed. An expert-level knowledge of C++ helps.
Indeed. An expert-level knowledge of C++ helps.
I think there is something to be said for starting a company when you're younger and more risk-tolerant though. If you wait until you're middle aged and set for life you might never do it.
conversely, money early on in life is worth more than money later on in life. This can be especially true once you get into a house you're happy with.
Your housing expenses are likely to be your single largest (fixed) expense, so if someone can work hard for a few years and buy a place, it's a lot easier to coast on lower paying jobs.
Your housing expenses are likely to be your single largest (fixed) expense, so if someone can work hard for a few years and buy a place, it's a lot easier to coast on lower paying jobs.
Agreed from personal experience. And a huge component of housing is where you live.
I'd argue that the single most financially-beneficial choice you can make as a SWE is finding a remote or hybrid job, then leveraging that to live somewhere you enjoy that allows you to save much more money.
I'd argue that the single most financially-beneficial choice you can make as a SWE is finding a remote or hybrid job, then leveraging that to live somewhere you enjoy that allows you to save much more money.
Remove 'into the stock market'
But otherwise yea concur.
I'm a stickler for diversified asset class allocation
Edit: Normally I am not a fan of explaining myself, but the most fundamental principle of wealth management, diversification, calibrating your risk exposure to various markets, is being downvoted. Thank you for the reminder people
But otherwise yea concur.
I'm a stickler for diversified asset class allocation
Edit: Normally I am not a fan of explaining myself, but the most fundamental principle of wealth management, diversification, calibrating your risk exposure to various markets, is being downvoted. Thank you for the reminder people
(this post sponsored by Masterworks)
What is Masterworks?
A company that lets you "invest" in fine art. They sell shares in famous paintings & such that they buy, hold, and sell (and charge big fees to do so, naturally). I think they predate the NFT craze, but when they saw it happening they started running extremely aggressive astroturf / content marketing campaigns trying to convince people that fine art was an "alternative asset class" worthy of investment. These articles/posts had a bait and switch quality to them: you would start reading something that sounded conservative and reasonable about the importance of diversification and then BAM, they hit you with "alternative asset classes like fine art" and then you would realize you had been reading an ad. That's what I'm parodying here.
Ah -
Well for those tracking this comment chain, other asset classes include: Bonds, Real Estate, Currency, Commodities.
Where else are you supposed to get average ~10% returns?
Or is your last bit just saying like do some other investments besides purely stock?
Or is your last bit just saying like do some other investments besides purely stock?
The latter
I quit amazon as soon as I had enough to live on (very frugally) for 18 months and a team who was willing to go full-time on our app idea. We had made a little prototype but not released and no traction or biz model. A lot of my confidence came from the 2 extremely talented co-founders who were willing to do the same.
We had realized that it would have been basically impossible for us to hit the milestones you mention without going all-in, full-time. That was the carrot.
The stick was that I didn't like my job very much. I loved my co-workers at amazon and the pay for a new grad broke college kid was kind of surreal, but my inflated ego could not stand being such a lowly cog in such a giant machine. I had just spent almost 3 months on a 3 line tax calculation in a checkout flow (had to work on several continents and query a silly amount of internal java services).
It also made me feel pretty safe that I had just done well in a perf review and my manager told me I could come back any time.
Beyond my own story, I'd add that I've now seen many people do this and none of them have expressed any regrets despite most not getting a win with the startup. For a certain type of person there's just nothing like the high of building something you own and the way that stretches you abilities.
We had realized that it would have been basically impossible for us to hit the milestones you mention without going all-in, full-time. That was the carrot.
The stick was that I didn't like my job very much. I loved my co-workers at amazon and the pay for a new grad broke college kid was kind of surreal, but my inflated ego could not stand being such a lowly cog in such a giant machine. I had just spent almost 3 months on a 3 line tax calculation in a checkout flow (had to work on several continents and query a silly amount of internal java services).
It also made me feel pretty safe that I had just done well in a perf review and my manager told me I could come back any time.
Beyond my own story, I'd add that I've now seen many people do this and none of them have expressed any regrets despite most not getting a win with the startup. For a certain type of person there's just nothing like the high of building something you own and the way that stretches you abilities.
By the way, "spent almost 3 months on a 3 line tax calculation in a checkout flow" sounds about right. You say it yourself "had to work on several continents and query a silly amount of internal java services".
A problem in the scale of a giant company like Amazon is a different problem altogether. Getting these 3 lines wrong could have, I suppose, catastrophic impact so spending 3 months on it makes total sense for Amazon.
A problem in the scale of a giant company like Amazon is a different problem altogether. Getting these 3 lines wrong could have, I suppose, catastrophic impact so spending 3 months on it makes total sense for Amazon.
When you find yourself asking this question, the truth is that you probably should have left a few month earlier. Things rarely improve. Take care of your finances and never put yourself in a position where you are dependent on a job if it is avoidable. It really helps with keeping a clear mind in making these decisions and greatly reduces stress around job changes and uncertainties.
> Raise seed round? - Cashflow more than your full-time income? - Huge traction tho no money yet? or anything else?
These sound like the real question is "when should I bail on my FAANG job to try my hand at my startup?", usually antithetical to making the finances more stable (should only do if you are not dependent on a job, which aligns with your advice.)
These sound like the real question is "when should I bail on my FAANG job to try my hand at my startup?", usually antithetical to making the finances more stable (should only do if you are not dependent on a job, which aligns with your advice.)
I completely missed the context. Thanks for pointing this out.
"if you have to ask, then it's probably time to go"
Deciding to live in a van down by the river?
Congrats on the FAANG job and the side gig throwing off so much cash you need to post this.
Congrats on the FAANG job and the side gig throwing off so much cash you need to post this.
Tech recruiter here in Switzerland with ~10 years of experience: People quit their teams/bosses, rarely do they quit for other reasons, like compensation or brand.
I have heard this rule of thumb, but I'm not sure where it comes from, and haven't found it to be true personally.
I think FAANG employees don't quit over compensation or brand. But I think employees of more normal companies do. A lot. And there's a lot more of them.
Hum, our CEO said something along these lines at the last All Hands.
I don't really know where he got that... I always liked my coworkers and I had the chance to have consistently amazing managers, but I still left previous jobs because was bored to death or got a better opportunity career or money-wise.
There are definitely some types that only care about their colleagues and bosses (I talked to one in my team just recently), but that's probably not even the majority. These people probably tend to stay a loooong time so maybe they are more visible to the execs?
There are definitely some types that only care about their colleagues and bosses (I talked to one in my team just recently), but that's probably not even the majority. These people probably tend to stay a loooong time so maybe they are more visible to the execs?
IDK, seems frequent enough from my experience. A good boss doesn't make up for crappy comp
Switzerland operates on an entirely different plane of existence.
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Whenever I have to make a big decision I think about what’s important to me. I give 3-8 things like money, learning, commute time, etc. a score from 1-5. Then I score different alternatives 1-5 based on how well I think they do on those things. Then I multiply and add the numbers together and I have a sense of what I should do. Usually it’s the highest score but sometimes I change a number because I realize something is more/less important than I thought.
Only you know what is important to you, and I bet lots of folks here can help inform how different options might score.
Only you know what is important to you, and I bet lots of folks here can help inform how different options might score.
Since it sounds like you're asking when you should quit to focus on a startup... to avoid potential legal troubles, the answer is before you started working on the startup (or certainly before you launched the startup). Ergo it's when you've got enough saved up to support working until you think you'll make income / get funded.
Otherwise, if you don't care about the legal / ethical risk, I'd say that you need to make a decision about where to focus once the startup is consuming enough effort that it's crowding your life.
Otherwise, if you don't care about the legal / ethical risk, I'd say that you need to make a decision about where to focus once the startup is consuming enough effort that it's crowding your life.
I left my FAANG job recently.
Despite having a seed round when I left, which definitely weighted the decision, I pay a very little salary to myself, basically covering health insurance and a bit more, so I burn my savings.
I made sure to have around 2 years of savings (not counting my little salary), so if in 10 months the picture is too bad, I can simply get a new job.
Now, what really made the difference in my decision is: - You’re the average of the 5 people you hang out the most. My co-founders are great people with a great tracking record and this makes a huge difference - Learnings. You won’t learn nearly as much about building a business if you continue taking it as a side gig - we have already a product already generating some revenue. Not huge, but we believe in a great potential - as I mentioned, the seed round of course changes the perspective - “if I wouldn’t earn as much, would I stay at my job?”, every time I would think about this, the answer was a big NO! I really didn’t want to live this miserable day to day because of a pay check - lastly, which is very personal, every time I’d think of memories of my childhood and the “rich kids” friend of mine, none of them had parents that were employees. Even now, every “rich person” I know are entrepreneurs. Sure… the odds are low, but I rather take the risk and live the life I want
Despite having a seed round when I left, which definitely weighted the decision, I pay a very little salary to myself, basically covering health insurance and a bit more, so I burn my savings.
I made sure to have around 2 years of savings (not counting my little salary), so if in 10 months the picture is too bad, I can simply get a new job.
Now, what really made the difference in my decision is: - You’re the average of the 5 people you hang out the most. My co-founders are great people with a great tracking record and this makes a huge difference - Learnings. You won’t learn nearly as much about building a business if you continue taking it as a side gig - we have already a product already generating some revenue. Not huge, but we believe in a great potential - as I mentioned, the seed round of course changes the perspective - “if I wouldn’t earn as much, would I stay at my job?”, every time I would think about this, the answer was a big NO! I really didn’t want to live this miserable day to day because of a pay check - lastly, which is very personal, every time I’d think of memories of my childhood and the “rich kids” friend of mine, none of them had parents that were employees. Even now, every “rich person” I know are entrepreneurs. Sure… the odds are low, but I rather take the risk and live the life I want
If you have an idea that you honestly think relieves people's pain, and those people have money, and you think you can put a team together to successfully execute on that in all ways (tech, sales, etc). I don't know your circumstances but this is a tall order. The people that do this well have a network already. You can start building the network and have a day job if you don't have kids.
I am in a similar predicament and heavily conflicted. Mid 30s, at FAANG, making ~$1M/yr liquid for the past few years, a net worth of ~$5M liquid in Vanguard ETFs, and have an offer for a very popular AI "startup" you all know, and I am not able to understand if the risk (illiquidity of my offer) and quality of life hit (longer hours, worse commute, higher stress) are worth the tradeoff.
On one hand, I am thinking that I really have no choice other than joining the opportunity presented in front of me, life in tech is either a constant uncomfortable growth and grind or I'll be left behind, there is really no "let's keep my current situation constant in my relatively cushy role".
On the other hand, I am so tempted to not disrupt my life until an external force does it for me (layoff etc) because things are, relatively speaking, going well for me.
Finally, since you mentioned seed etc, I would never, right now, start my own thing, but that's just me and my current circumstances.
On one hand, I am thinking that I really have no choice other than joining the opportunity presented in front of me, life in tech is either a constant uncomfortable growth and grind or I'll be left behind, there is really no "let's keep my current situation constant in my relatively cushy role".
On the other hand, I am so tempted to not disrupt my life until an external force does it for me (layoff etc) because things are, relatively speaking, going well for me.
Finally, since you mentioned seed etc, I would never, right now, start my own thing, but that's just me and my current circumstances.
damn, very impressive. As I was reading your post I think the only thing that could tempt me away from a 1M a year job might be an offer from OpenAI, and sure enough it sounds like you have that option.
>"and quality of life hit (longer hours, worse commute, higher stress) are worth the tradeoff."
Looking back, the hours I put in were never the largest factor in my happiness, it's always been having a cool boss, having interesting problems to solve and having engaged coworkers that mattered most. YMMV.
"there is really no "let's keep my current situation constant in my relatively cushy role".
I don't know if that's true, if you're willing to take a (huge) pay cut. There are probably a ton of small companies that would take for a modest salary and some stock options that may or may not pay off, even if you were going to put in 30 hours a week or something.
>"and quality of life hit (longer hours, worse commute, higher stress) are worth the tradeoff."
Looking back, the hours I put in were never the largest factor in my happiness, it's always been having a cool boss, having interesting problems to solve and having engaged coworkers that mattered most. YMMV.
"there is really no "let's keep my current situation constant in my relatively cushy role".
I don't know if that's true, if you're willing to take a (huge) pay cut. There are probably a ton of small companies that would take for a modest salary and some stock options that may or may not pay off, even if you were going to put in 30 hours a week or something.
Sounds like you're thinking about a startup. It's a terrible idea financially and you'll probably fail. But if you have a burning desire that you can't shake, here's my advice.
Are you looking to for a lifestyle business that allows you to work on interesting problems with interesting people or do you want to transform an industry? Don't raise VC money if you're not sure on the latter.
If you're bootstrapping, most startups take a minimum of 12 - 24 months to find sustainable cashflow. You'll want to have 1 - 2 years of expenses saved (at a very modest salary). If you already have cashflow coming in, you can cut this down.
Are you looking to for a lifestyle business that allows you to work on interesting problems with interesting people or do you want to transform an industry? Don't raise VC money if you're not sure on the latter.
If you're bootstrapping, most startups take a minimum of 12 - 24 months to find sustainable cashflow. You'll want to have 1 - 2 years of expenses saved (at a very modest salary). If you already have cashflow coming in, you can cut this down.
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FAANG is obsolete, the new acronym is MAAMA (change three letters to account for Facebook->Meta, Netflix->Microsoft, and Google->Alphabet).
The goal here is to be able to say "Big MAAMA's outsized influence in the tech sector", of course. Also has some relevant historical antecedents, i.e. "Ma Bell".
The goal here is to be able to say "Big MAAMA's outsized influence in the tech sector", of course. Also has some relevant historical antecedents, i.e. "Ma Bell".
"Stop trying to make 'fetch' happen."
When you have enough saved up to maintain your lifestyle for the expected remaining length of your life.
I quit when I had found a cofounder that I wanted to start a startup with, and enough money in the bank to keep me afloat if I didn't have a regular income for a couple years.
Sooner the better if you are really committed. You can only have one wife these days, the mistresses will remain mistresses until you put a ring on it.
Is Microsoft considered FAANG?
Depends on who you ask. In a literal sense, no. But lots of people use "FAANG" as a shorthand for a wide range of established tech companies with relatively high compensation (and RSUs with actual value). In that sense, yes.
"Options/RSUs with actual value" is a very nice way to put it.
We should have stopped at "GAFA"
The other odd one is Netflix since it's much smaller than the others.
well its historically the highest paying, especially cash, also a lot of tech innovation back when the acronym became a thing.
I think its less about size but more about paying ridiculous salary bands. Netflix does that, but to my knowledge Microsoft is still at "body shop" pay levels.
Isn't Amazon like that, too?
No amazon pays very well with RSUs. Much higher than Microsoft for equivalent titles. However, I don't know if people get 'upleveled' at Microsoft. Could be that a Senior Software Engineer at Amazon would be a Principal Engineer at microsoft or something.
you cannot, you have become addicted to the salary
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When you have enough invested to FIRE.
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Get two FAANG jobs
make it FAAMNG
F=Facebook
A=Apple
A=Amazon
M=Microsoft
N=Netflix
G=Google
I know what the acronym should be, but I don't think I'm allowed to post it.
I'll be your sacrificial lamb. The acronym is FAGMAN. I really wish the word "fag" wasn't a disgusting slur for a marginalized sexual minority, because if anyone deserves the nastiness of that word, it's not gay people, it's fucking FAGMAN.
I was thinking about this, and it should be MAGMAN since Facebook is now Meta.
This would be so much simpler without Microsoft. At least MANGA is a word.
This would be so much simpler without Microsoft. At least MANGA is a word.
We just need a tech giant with an E and we can have MEGAMAN! Hey, if Netflix is allowed, why not EA (to represent the gaming industry too). There we go!
You don’t because there’s a 99% chance it will fail and you will waste money
your too late already...all that time wasted on the office pool table has given an edge to all your competitors, and since your still doubting itll only get worse
- Raise seed round? - Cashflow more than your full-time income? - Huge traction tho no money yet? or anything else?