Infant microbes and metabolites point to childhood neurodevelopmental disorders(medicalxpress.com)
medicalxpress.com
Infant microbes and metabolites point to childhood neurodevelopmental disorders
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2024-04-autism-adhd-linked-disturbed-gut.html
83 comments
> and other environmental toxins (PFAS and other endocrine disruptors [1]) matter – but they can be detoxified over time via some fairly safe and non-invasive techniques.
What techniques are you referring to?
What techniques are you referring to?
The safest I know of are infrared saunas (red bulb/near infrared is best), and breathing exercises, as well as overall good nutrition and emotional healing to support the body's natural detox pathways.
Clinical practices like intravenous chelation (ETDA etc) or supplements like spirulina, ALA, NAC, vitamin C, cilantro etc are popular and seem appealing from the promises made in their marketing, but they are often ineffective at removing the most deeply-stored toxins, and can do more harm than good by moving some toxins around the body to places where they can do more damage.
Clinical practices like intravenous chelation (ETDA etc) or supplements like spirulina, ALA, NAC, vitamin C, cilantro etc are popular and seem appealing from the promises made in their marketing, but they are often ineffective at removing the most deeply-stored toxins, and can do more harm than good by moving some toxins around the body to places where they can do more damage.
Not sure if it counts as non invasive, but I've read research suggesting donating blood lowers pfas levels reliably (not too mention other potential benefits that are not particularly well validated).
is that really a solution? you're just giving someone else the PFAS. fixes you temporarily, fucks up someone else
If someone needs blood transfusions they have larger concerns than PFAS (that's likely at a similar baseline anyway).
> nothing has made a bigger difference (...) than regularly practicing techniques that identify and release deeply-held emotional complexes
Are you talking about meditation? And if so, on your own or with a teacher?
Are you talking about meditation? And if so, on your own or with a teacher?
Meditation has only been a very small part of my practice. I've worked with a whole lot of different practitioners since about 2012. I can't really distil a decade plus of healing work into a comment that skeptical readers will find persuasive, but for those wanting to look into it for themselves, books by Gabor Maté and Bruce Lipton are a good start, and practices like Internal Family Systems, Family Constellations, EFT tapping, biofeedback/neurofeedback and Neuro-Emotional Technique are a worth trying.
In principle, emotional healing techniques are effective if they involve "letting go" of the physiological reaction (i.e., "trigger") that is activated when experiencing (or remembering) a traumatic event. Once the physiological reaction ceases to occur, the emotion is "processed", and is just a benign memory like any other. But that can take a huge amount of work over a long time for some complexes, if they are very, erm, complex, and deeply ingrained.
In principle, emotional healing techniques are effective if they involve "letting go" of the physiological reaction (i.e., "trigger") that is activated when experiencing (or remembering) a traumatic event. Once the physiological reaction ceases to occur, the emotion is "processed", and is just a benign memory like any other. But that can take a huge amount of work over a long time for some complexes, if they are very, erm, complex, and deeply ingrained.
A further thought:
Whilhelm Reich’s concept of “armoring” is relevant and worth exploring for those interested.
Here’s the first article I could find about it (no idea if it’s the best):
https://www.somatopia.com/blog/the-art-of-letting-go-why-rei...
One of my practitioners, who I see every 2-3 months, specializes in releasing “armor” from the body with a specific massage technique.
I can easily believe that in many cases where someone is considered to be moderately-ASD, that it’s a case of this kind of armoring.
This is not to say there is no physiological or genetic component, but that the trauma and armoring is a significant factor in the expression of the condition.
Whilhelm Reich’s concept of “armoring” is relevant and worth exploring for those interested.
Here’s the first article I could find about it (no idea if it’s the best):
https://www.somatopia.com/blog/the-art-of-letting-go-why-rei...
One of my practitioners, who I see every 2-3 months, specializes in releasing “armor” from the body with a specific massage technique.
I can easily believe that in many cases where someone is considered to be moderately-ASD, that it’s a case of this kind of armoring.
This is not to say there is no physiological or genetic component, but that the trauma and armoring is a significant factor in the expression of the condition.
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Thanks for sharing your journey and insightful thought procs on the matter. Refreshing to find comments like these in the noise that is HN.
My experience is quite similar, except my issue was recurring severe unexplained pain with scarring of the joints. I've come to believe the same conclusion that chronic fight or flight is the biggest factor and have healed myself within a year.
The difference is that I've come at it from a different approach, where this fight or flight is a neural pathway or habit of the unconscious mind that you can train yourself out of. Although trauma can probably be a significant factor on how people get to this state, "the way out" (title of the book by Alan Gordon that explained these ideas) is probable the same and I believe not all people with these issues have significant trauma, although in some it may be necessary to address as an underlying cause.
As for how you can train yourself, it's explained in the book mentioned above as well as the free podcast "Tell me about your pain". Since the podcast is free so the techniques are public knowledge, I believe I'm allowed to summarize my take:
1. Constant "problem solving" and overthinking about your health can put you in a state of stress that heightens your perception of your own body which in turn convinces you that something is seriously wrong (eg: you may hear your own heart beating very loudly even though it's beating normally, or you may feel pain even though the nerves are transmitting normal signals to your brain). If you've been to many doctors and they can't find an explanation, there's a chance they all missed a serious problem, but there's probably a bigger chance that there's nothing physically wrong with your body but your nervous system is causing the altered perception and over reaction. It can be freeing to realize you don't need to try a new diet, or spend all your free time on pubmed, or go see an expensive doctor that prescribes expensive supplements. If you have a "neuroplastic" issue these things will not only not help, but actually hinder your recovery.
2. Catching the "what if" thoughts. You can't stop yourself from going to a worst case scenario, but you can stop yourself from buying into it. Every time you think something like "what if I actually have an injury that the MRI and X-Ray missed"? You can reply to yourself how unlikely that is. The nervous system is part of the subconscious so making yourself feel calm will probably, over time, calm it down.
3. Somatic tracking, which is the action of paying attention to a painful, strange or otherwise uncomfortable sensation in your body through a lens of safety. Eg: wow, it's incredible that my brain can usually filter the sound of my heartbeat but now I'm able to hear it at full volume. If you understand that the sensation is safe and you have nothing to fear, paying attention to that sensation will slowly make it go away over time (not necessarily in one session, which although it can happen is not the goal). Your nervous system highlights pain or sensations because it believes they're dangerous and wants you to feel them to avoid further injury. When you pay attention to them in a lens of safety it understands that there's no danger so they get deactivated.
4.Paying attention to things that feel good and being mindful in the moment about them. Whether it's feeling your breath in mindfulness meditation or taking a walk in the park and consciously being present and enjoying the experience.
5. Filtering what you consume. Media and content nowadays tries to appeal to our most basic instincts, especially fear. Reading news can put you in a state of alert. Watching shorts or tiktok can overstimulate you. Try to be comfortable with stillness and doing nothing. You don't need to fill every free moment of time with your phone.
6. Have you ever though: if I was better I would do X, or when I get better I'll do Y? Being sick can bring apathy that can stop you from doing things you enjoy even after being physically capable. Actually doing them and learning to enjoy them again isn't just a possibility, it's a necessary part of recovery.
I'm sure there's more, but this is what worked for me to go from bed-bound with full body pain (with 3 surgeries to remove internal joint scarring without any injury) to being 98% recovered in less than one year. If any of this resonates with someone reading this I'd recommend listening to the podcast, it's free and got me 70% of the way there even without the book.
The difference is that I've come at it from a different approach, where this fight or flight is a neural pathway or habit of the unconscious mind that you can train yourself out of. Although trauma can probably be a significant factor on how people get to this state, "the way out" (title of the book by Alan Gordon that explained these ideas) is probable the same and I believe not all people with these issues have significant trauma, although in some it may be necessary to address as an underlying cause.
As for how you can train yourself, it's explained in the book mentioned above as well as the free podcast "Tell me about your pain". Since the podcast is free so the techniques are public knowledge, I believe I'm allowed to summarize my take:
1. Constant "problem solving" and overthinking about your health can put you in a state of stress that heightens your perception of your own body which in turn convinces you that something is seriously wrong (eg: you may hear your own heart beating very loudly even though it's beating normally, or you may feel pain even though the nerves are transmitting normal signals to your brain). If you've been to many doctors and they can't find an explanation, there's a chance they all missed a serious problem, but there's probably a bigger chance that there's nothing physically wrong with your body but your nervous system is causing the altered perception and over reaction. It can be freeing to realize you don't need to try a new diet, or spend all your free time on pubmed, or go see an expensive doctor that prescribes expensive supplements. If you have a "neuroplastic" issue these things will not only not help, but actually hinder your recovery.
2. Catching the "what if" thoughts. You can't stop yourself from going to a worst case scenario, but you can stop yourself from buying into it. Every time you think something like "what if I actually have an injury that the MRI and X-Ray missed"? You can reply to yourself how unlikely that is. The nervous system is part of the subconscious so making yourself feel calm will probably, over time, calm it down.
3. Somatic tracking, which is the action of paying attention to a painful, strange or otherwise uncomfortable sensation in your body through a lens of safety. Eg: wow, it's incredible that my brain can usually filter the sound of my heartbeat but now I'm able to hear it at full volume. If you understand that the sensation is safe and you have nothing to fear, paying attention to that sensation will slowly make it go away over time (not necessarily in one session, which although it can happen is not the goal). Your nervous system highlights pain or sensations because it believes they're dangerous and wants you to feel them to avoid further injury. When you pay attention to them in a lens of safety it understands that there's no danger so they get deactivated.
4.Paying attention to things that feel good and being mindful in the moment about them. Whether it's feeling your breath in mindfulness meditation or taking a walk in the park and consciously being present and enjoying the experience.
5. Filtering what you consume. Media and content nowadays tries to appeal to our most basic instincts, especially fear. Reading news can put you in a state of alert. Watching shorts or tiktok can overstimulate you. Try to be comfortable with stillness and doing nothing. You don't need to fill every free moment of time with your phone.
6. Have you ever though: if I was better I would do X, or when I get better I'll do Y? Being sick can bring apathy that can stop you from doing things you enjoy even after being physically capable. Actually doing them and learning to enjoy them again isn't just a possibility, it's a necessary part of recovery.
I'm sure there's more, but this is what worked for me to go from bed-bound with full body pain (with 3 surgeries to remove internal joint scarring without any injury) to being 98% recovered in less than one year. If any of this resonates with someone reading this I'd recommend listening to the podcast, it's free and got me 70% of the way there even without the book.
The antibiotic link is really alarming. Growing up in a country where antibiotics are basically prescribed for any illness, my mom refused to administer it to us unless there was an emergency. Clearly she had some foresight.
I find it a tough choice for my own kids. For example, if they have an ear infection, you could try waiting it out, and sometimes they can get better on their own, but it's riskier and might be longer and cause more discomfort. Or you can give the antibiotic, but then you get the unknown side effects.
I find it a tough choice for my own kids. For example, if they have an ear infection, you could try waiting it out, and sometimes they can get better on their own, but it's riskier and might be longer and cause more discomfort. Or you can give the antibiotic, but then you get the unknown side effects.
I'm having a hard time believing in the antibiotic link.
I've spent quite a bit of time in various parts of South America where antibiotics are available without prescription and from what I've seen, used for every fever and sniffle for 40 years+ now. I'm not seeing generations of Autistic and ADHD people there. If the antibiotic link was true, wouldn't it be worse there?
I've spent quite a bit of time in various parts of South America where antibiotics are available without prescription and from what I've seen, used for every fever and sniffle for 40 years+ now. I'm not seeing generations of Autistic and ADHD people there. If the antibiotic link was true, wouldn't it be worse there?
My guess is food isn't so sterile (lack of probiotic and other micro-life) food in South America, Asia, etc [yet]. Same for water, environment in general. Plus more human to human contact. So effects of antibiotics are constantly being reversed. Plus lactobacillus tablets are literally taken with the antibiotics (tho probably it should be taken a week after a round of antibiotics?).
Whereas some Western countries might have a sterile-ness + formula + meds + other environmental factors that form the perfect storm. Edit: I'm not saying it causes x or y. Just that it is not ideal for a young kid.
Whereas some Western countries might have a sterile-ness + formula + meds + other environmental factors that form the perfect storm. Edit: I'm not saying it causes x or y. Just that it is not ideal for a young kid.
I dont have any proof either way, but you're assuming it's the only factor. It could be a mix of antibiotic and diet, or antibiotic and lack of exposure to other germs.
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Could also be that all bacteria evolved to resist the OTC antibiotics in that environment.
Thanks, really great anecdote for US centric folks.
You should also keep in mind that the "diagnosis" of an ear infection is often half assed / made up, mostly because it's much easier to prescribe an antibiotic (which satisfies most frustrated parents) than stop your busy clinic / urgent care / ED to explain why antibiotics aren't indicated (and then deal with the fallout of a complaint or negative review).
In contrast, it's pretty difficult to prove that an ear infection was not present at the time of evaluation. The assessment is highly subjective, can be really difficult to thoroughly assess in young kids, and generally doesn't leave any hard evidence to review or critique.
Nearly all of the bad incentives align to pressure providers to just diagnose an ear infection and prescribe the antibiotic and move on with their busy shift.
In contrast, it's pretty difficult to prove that an ear infection was not present at the time of evaluation. The assessment is highly subjective, can be really difficult to thoroughly assess in young kids, and generally doesn't leave any hard evidence to review or critique.
Nearly all of the bad incentives align to pressure providers to just diagnose an ear infection and prescribe the antibiotic and move on with their busy shift.
There's no such thing as reviews in the place I've been growing up, where you'd get antibiotics for basically a sneeze, and can even buy them yourself in the pharmacy (weekends, because your doctor won't be around). But reactions or not, bugs will definitely build a resistance over time, which won't be a problem if you stay lucky.
I've found this difficult as well, my mother always jumped right to antibiotics and it had some pretty clear long term consequences.
My approach with my kids has been to use antibiotics only if there's no progression (better or worse). I figure as long as it appears the immune system is doing its job, that's enough for most cases.
So far, we've given our 3-year antibiotics on two occasions. Once for an ear infection that wouldn't clear and for when he had pneumonia.
My approach with my kids has been to use antibiotics only if there's no progression (better or worse). I figure as long as it appears the immune system is doing its job, that's enough for most cases.
So far, we've given our 3-year antibiotics on two occasions. Once for an ear infection that wouldn't clear and for when he had pneumonia.
> I've found this difficult as well, my mother always jumped right to antibiotics and it had some pretty clear long term consequences.
How could this possibly be true that there were clear long term consequences? How could you reasonably know if there were long term consequences from antibiotic use?
Which antibiotics cause what and how do you know they are the cause?
How could this possibly be true that there were clear long term consequences? How could you reasonably know if there were long term consequences from antibiotic use?
Which antibiotics cause what and how do you know they are the cause?
The more I come across articles like this (yes: I know it’s talking about early life) the more I start to wonder if the problems I’ve struggled with in the past and to a somewhat lesser extent now (anxiety, with quite severe physical symptoms) are caused by/can at least be alleviated by a change in gut flora. I have this weird feeling (based on some recurring experience) that anxiety and digestion are somehow deeply connected.
Has anyone here tried making a change to their ‘microbiome’ and noticed it had any obvious effect?
Has anyone here tried making a change to their ‘microbiome’ and noticed it had any obvious effect?
The gut-brain connection[1] is very real! I think we're only really starting to understand how much they are related.
[1]https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi...
[1]https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi...
Yo no joke I did a fecal transplant, which is a major change in gut flora. I have not noticed much of a difference tbh.
May I ask what it was to treat?
Yes, I'm autistic and I regularly take lactobacillus reuteri which has helped my gut quite a bit. I wouldn't say it was a massive shift, but it certainly has been really nice. There's at least some evidence that this bacteria is deficient in autistic individuals and supplementation can help with that.[1]
[1] https://scholarship.claremont.edu/scripps_theses/1343/
[1] https://scholarship.claremont.edu/scripps_theses/1343/
When I was struggling with severe anxiety during covid lockdowns and struggling with a bad job, I read about a link between depression and gut health, so started taking kefir daily. Over time things definitely improved, but I was doing so much stuff to try and improve the situation (increased exercise, therapy, meditation etc) I can’t say it was the key to recovery, but it certainly didn’t hurt.
It feels way too complex to draw clear conclusions, but perhaps we can try a more transitive approach:
- It's well established now that physical exercice has an effect on clinical depression and specific mental issues
- Gut flora directly affects your physical state, in particular the amount of energy you'll have to consume that day (both in what nutrients it can extract, and how effectively it does so)
Gut flora impacting your physical state, impacting your mental health would look like a decent link to me.
- It's well established now that physical exercice has an effect on clinical depression and specific mental issues
- Gut flora directly affects your physical state, in particular the amount of energy you'll have to consume that day (both in what nutrients it can extract, and how effectively it does so)
Gut flora impacting your physical state, impacting your mental health would look like a decent link to me.
I don’t know how much is microbiome or micronutrients or general diet or what, but yes, as guided by my doctors, I’ve made a few adjustments to supplements and foods that made a huge difference in anxiety and depression.
Some of the adjustments I was told affect microbiome but I don’t know why / how.
All of that said, for an anxiety attack there’s nothing like meds, in my experience, to put a lid on it real quick.
Some of the adjustments I was told affect microbiome but I don’t know why / how.
All of that said, for an anxiety attack there’s nothing like meds, in my experience, to put a lid on it real quick.
What kinds of changes specifically?
To be honest my read on this is not causal. It’s very hard to diagnose ADHD or the like until the child has some theory of self.
That being said maybe it’s causal? But it might also just be a generalized indicator of developmental issues (if you have issues on one part of the body, makes sense for other parts to have issues as well IMO. Especially given the comorbidity stuff on ADHD diagnoses)
That being said maybe it’s causal? But it might also just be a generalized indicator of developmental issues (if you have issues on one part of the body, makes sense for other parts to have issues as well IMO. Especially given the comorbidity stuff on ADHD diagnoses)
ketogenic diet solved my depression, but not the anxiety. I'm still adhd, but not as scatterbrained. You're looking at a time-window of about a week. When u switch the diet you'll know within a few days wether it works or not.
carnivore diet solved my anxiety, but I'm stuck now, I'm able to work a job, but when something traumatic happens I'm still anxious, not as much though.
been collecting for a while, hope it helps. https://github.com/cutestuff/FoodDepressionConundrum
For the gut in general it seems to be helping to take glucosamine, magnesium and something else, I forgot just now.
carnivore diet solved my anxiety, but I'm stuck now, I'm able to work a job, but when something traumatic happens I'm still anxious, not as much though.
been collecting for a while, hope it helps. https://github.com/cutestuff/FoodDepressionConundrum
For the gut in general it seems to be helping to take glucosamine, magnesium and something else, I forgot just now.
Worked out more to speed digestion, ate more fiber and veggies to smooth digestion. Varied my diet.
Anxiety got totally under control.
It quickly reverts when I stop this.
Anxiety got totally under control.
It quickly reverts when I stop this.
All sorts of hints that this might be something that happens.
Histamine intolerance is an interesting one.
Histamine intolerance is an interesting one.
When I overeat carbs and too little veggies, my anxiety rises and I have bad moods.
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Remember the study that said autism and ADHD are linked to acetaminophen use during pregnancy?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9385573/
Well it turns out that "Acetaminophen during bacterial colonization of the naïve gut is associated with lasting alterations in childhood microbiome composition": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9367926/
Well it turns out that "Acetaminophen during bacterial colonization of the naïve gut is associated with lasting alterations in childhood microbiome composition": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9367926/
...except that my mother never used Tylenol during her pregnancy with me and I'm absolutely ASD.
I'm not saying these things don't have an influence on severity or presentation of ASD. But they are certainly not the root cause(s).
I'm not saying these things don't have an influence on severity or presentation of ASD. But they are certainly not the root cause(s).
ASD is most certainly multiple things with multiple causes.
I don't think anyone is saying that a mother needs to take acetaminophen for their child to have ASD, just that there is an association between a mother taking acetaminophen and their child having ASD.
It seems that the cause of the connection is/was not known, but there is evidence that acetaminophen during pregnancy has an impact on the child's microbiome, and now the study this post is on points to a connection between an altered microbiome and ASD.
There are no doubt many other things done during pregnancy that can also affect the child's microbiome, but this connection is no less interesting given how freely acetaminophen is taken.
It seems that the cause of the connection is/was not known, but there is evidence that acetaminophen during pregnancy has an impact on the child's microbiome, and now the study this post is on points to a connection between an altered microbiome and ASD.
There are no doubt many other things done during pregnancy that can also affect the child's microbiome, but this connection is no less interesting given how freely acetaminophen is taken.
What people here are missing is ASD is a natural part of humanity and has always been with us. Loose correlations treating it as a "disease" are wrong. One day our thinking will change from the ableist "what is causing this and how can we fix it" to modern ideas of accepting autistic people as just regular people and giving accommodations as needed. We are not going away, ever. There's no "Fix" to this the same way there's and should not be a fix to being LGBTQ.
"Exercise appears to be effective in modifying the gut microbiota in both clinical and healthy populations." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10054511/
Anecdotal: my persistent digestion issues completely disappeared when I started walking (not running, not jogging - walking) 2-3 miles a day.
Anecdotal: my persistent digestion issues completely disappeared when I started walking (not running, not jogging - walking) 2-3 miles a day.
I was involved in this field some years ago now, in one of the first randomized trials that assessed gut microbiome changes as response to aerobic exercise (with a very small effect size). Back then i felt all the evidence for exercise changing the microbiome was quite weak.
At the time most of the evidence was observational or mice running on treadmills with very little actual randomised human evidence. The ones that were high-quality intervention studies with control groups showed very small effects. Additionally, they were always done for another primary outcome, so they never controlled for stuff like people who bike more every day will also eat more.
I think it is plausible that exercise will change the microbiome, from personal experience high-intensity running for instance will increase the transit time of feces, a major determinant of the microbiome. But i believe most of the studies are low-quality and overhyped, and a glance at this review seems to indicate that the field has not changed much.
At the time most of the evidence was observational or mice running on treadmills with very little actual randomised human evidence. The ones that were high-quality intervention studies with control groups showed very small effects. Additionally, they were always done for another primary outcome, so they never controlled for stuff like people who bike more every day will also eat more.
I think it is plausible that exercise will change the microbiome, from personal experience high-intensity running for instance will increase the transit time of feces, a major determinant of the microbiome. But i believe most of the studies are low-quality and overhyped, and a glance at this review seems to indicate that the field has not changed much.
I'll defer to your expertise on studies. And I acknowledge that may be possible.
That said, anecdotally the difference is night and day. So whether it's actually altering the microbiome or altering some other mechanism, I try to recommend it as much as possible.
That said, anecdotally the difference is night and day. So whether it's actually altering the microbiome or altering some other mechanism, I try to recommend it as much as possible.
Walking and zone 2 running are both amazing!
I'd like to add a little bit of water to this particular fire. I'm autistic and I've read numerous studies along this vein. In short, yes there's a strong link between gut flora and brain development however autism (and presumably ADHD) is a heterogeneous condition with a variety of interrelated causes.
Personally, I can say that this likely is a proximate cause for me as I got a bad staph infection at just a few months old and naturally I was treated by antibiotics. However, I also have quite a few genes that are associated with autism as well. So while there's an increasingly clear picture, I'd hesitate to say what exactly is and isn't a cause of being autistic.
Personally, I can say that this likely is a proximate cause for me as I got a bad staph infection at just a few months old and naturally I was treated by antibiotics. However, I also have quite a few genes that are associated with autism as well. So while there's an increasingly clear picture, I'd hesitate to say what exactly is and isn't a cause of being autistic.
> Personally, I can say that this likely is a proximate cause for me as I got a bad staph infection at just a few months old and naturally I was treated by antibiotics.
Being treated with antibiotics in infancy is extremely common.
It’s especially problematic right now in some countries where antibiotics are available over the counter, as it’s common practice in some groups to treat every childhood illness with antibiotics. The amount of antibiotic abuse happening in some countries right now is absolutely astounding.
Even in countries like the United States some parents will present to doctors and demand antibiotics for nearly every illness. The medical system here is, in general, better at withholding them from demanding parents when children show no cause for antibiotic use. It’s actually one of the bigger problems that pediatricians face with feedback and bad reviews, though that’s another story.
That said, I wouldn’t ascribe anything in particular to antibiotic use as a child. It’s rare to go through all of childhood without any exposure to antibiotics.
Being treated with antibiotics in infancy is extremely common.
It’s especially problematic right now in some countries where antibiotics are available over the counter, as it’s common practice in some groups to treat every childhood illness with antibiotics. The amount of antibiotic abuse happening in some countries right now is absolutely astounding.
Even in countries like the United States some parents will present to doctors and demand antibiotics for nearly every illness. The medical system here is, in general, better at withholding them from demanding parents when children show no cause for antibiotic use. It’s actually one of the bigger problems that pediatricians face with feedback and bad reviews, though that’s another story.
That said, I wouldn’t ascribe anything in particular to antibiotic use as a child. It’s rare to go through all of childhood without any exposure to antibiotics.
I have a child diagnosed with ASD level 2 (in Australia), he was born premature by a few weeks and immediately put on a course of antibiotics. I am curious about the connection here but am a total layman with the science.
Paper in Cell:
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(24)00238-1?_re...
There is a lot there to establish association but seems to me causality might run either way.
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(24)00238-1?_re...
There is a lot there to establish association but seems to me causality might run either way.
The gut flora-brain link is always tenuous and indirect.
But I think there are many ways one would affect the other. Stress affects the sympathetic neural system, limiting vasodilation in the gut, reducing the immune system’s cell access to the gut, and so on. While chronic gut inflammation will affect vascular health in the brain through the humoral response. These are just two pathways.
It seems like inter-cellar signalling to hormonal signalling will always be ridiculously opaque and complex in a macro scale. Everything has an impact on most other things in the body. Scrape a knee today, feel more anxiety stepping on a skateboard tomorrow, and worse digestion later in the day.
It might take non-human intelligence to make sense of it all. Until then, everything is correlated.
Maybe many mental health issues have contributing factors that involve feedback loops between the brain and other somatic tissues and organs. Probably. To what extent do what specific somatic issues cause mental health problems is the more pertinent question.
But I think there are many ways one would affect the other. Stress affects the sympathetic neural system, limiting vasodilation in the gut, reducing the immune system’s cell access to the gut, and so on. While chronic gut inflammation will affect vascular health in the brain through the humoral response. These are just two pathways.
It seems like inter-cellar signalling to hormonal signalling will always be ridiculously opaque and complex in a macro scale. Everything has an impact on most other things in the body. Scrape a knee today, feel more anxiety stepping on a skateboard tomorrow, and worse digestion later in the day.
It might take non-human intelligence to make sense of it all. Until then, everything is correlated.
Maybe many mental health issues have contributing factors that involve feedback loops between the brain and other somatic tissues and organs. Probably. To what extent do what specific somatic issues cause mental health problems is the more pertinent question.
I’m immediately skeptical of the methods. When I was a kid, doctors would shove antibiotics on you if you even coughed. The families where that wasn’t the case had a definite vibe, so this is screaming confounded variables to me. Who knows, maybe they did it right, but I’m skeptical.
As someone from an autistic family, at least in our case it's definitely genetic.
Heritability doesn't imply that it's only caused by genetics. For example, schizophrenia is thought to arise from genetic and environmental interaction. So it's still worth trying to understand what environmental factors influence occurrence or severity of ASD.
I don't know, you inherit your gut flora from your mother...
[deleted]
gertop(2)
My layman's intuition points towards inflammation for at least ASD, less so the ADHD.
...except that inflammatory bowel problems are common in people with connective tissue disorders and that venn diagram significantly overlaps with ASD
hella confounding factors, do concur.
what would be most productive for me is to know what a model diet during pregnancy and first couple years for the child looks like
Any civilizations with lower incidence of autism and adhd? Thats actually been tested?
Any civilizations with lower incidence of autism and adhd? Thats actually been tested?
I haven't read the whole paper yet, but so far it looks like there's no causal analysis, only associative, so anyone speculating about causality based on these results is putting the cart before the horse. By far the more likely explanation for any association of this type is a common cause. For example, take this sentence from the results:
> Infections during early childhood (birth to 5 years) significantly correlated with heightened risks of ADHD or ASD [...]
One plausible cause of such an association is pleiotropy: a genetic variant that influences one's risk for both infection and neurodevelopmental disorders.
Sadly, it is standard practice in the sciences to report "A is associated with B" using phrasings that the general public (and even many scientists) interpret to mean "A causes B". For example, this sentence from the abstract:
> The findings suggest links to immunodysregulation and metabolism, compounded by stress, early-life infection, and antibiotics.
Or this sentence from the results:
> Penicillin use between 1 and 2.5 years resulted in a 1.6-fold (1.2–2.1, 95% CI) higher likelihood of future ASD (p = 0.0030).
None of these are causal statements, but many people would read them as statements that one thing causes another. As much as I complain, though, I honestly don't know how much I can blame the scientific community for accepting "misleading" statements like this. Because it's also possible that regardless of what wording scientists settled on for expressing an association with no implication of causality, the general public would latch on to that phrase and read causality into it.
Edit: I also want to mention that there's absolutely nothing wrong with associative analyses, as long as you don't try to draw conclusions about causality from them.
Edit 2: Reading further into the results, they report a LOT of p-values and CIs with no adjustment for multiple testing, and many of those p-values are barely less than 0.05 and would definitely not be significant with proper multiple testing adjustment (i.e. many of them have a high likelihood of being false positives).
> Infections during early childhood (birth to 5 years) significantly correlated with heightened risks of ADHD or ASD [...]
One plausible cause of such an association is pleiotropy: a genetic variant that influences one's risk for both infection and neurodevelopmental disorders.
Sadly, it is standard practice in the sciences to report "A is associated with B" using phrasings that the general public (and even many scientists) interpret to mean "A causes B". For example, this sentence from the abstract:
> The findings suggest links to immunodysregulation and metabolism, compounded by stress, early-life infection, and antibiotics.
Or this sentence from the results:
> Penicillin use between 1 and 2.5 years resulted in a 1.6-fold (1.2–2.1, 95% CI) higher likelihood of future ASD (p = 0.0030).
None of these are causal statements, but many people would read them as statements that one thing causes another. As much as I complain, though, I honestly don't know how much I can blame the scientific community for accepting "misleading" statements like this. Because it's also possible that regardless of what wording scientists settled on for expressing an association with no implication of causality, the general public would latch on to that phrase and read causality into it.
Edit: I also want to mention that there's absolutely nothing wrong with associative analyses, as long as you don't try to draw conclusions about causality from them.
Edit 2: Reading further into the results, they report a LOT of p-values and CIs with no adjustment for multiple testing, and many of those p-values are barely less than 0.05 and would definitely not be significant with proper multiple testing adjustment (i.e. many of them have a high likelihood of being false positives).
I wonder how two identical twins with the same DNA might not both have autism. If it is environmental, having different gut flora seems more like an effect rather than a root cause since twin babies are usually given identical foods.
I think it would be really ironic if the cure for autism was a vaccine though.
I think it would be really ironic if the cure for autism was a vaccine though.
My partner and I, from two different continents and two vastly different ecosystems, both come from generationally autistic families. So excuse my skepticism.
Yes, gut flora is definitely disrupted in people with ASD. But it's a real long stretch to suggest it's the cause.
Yes, gut flora is definitely disrupted in people with ASD. But it's a real long stretch to suggest it's the cause.
I also think there is probably not a single cause for either ASD or ADHD -- there is probably both a genetic component and an environmental component involved. At the same time, it's very hard to tease these things apart, especially with whether the microbiome plays a role because that too is significantly hereditary.
The study implies antibiotics but I don't see that data. Am I missing it? There is discussion of data connecting future diagnosis with early antibiotics, but nothing that clearly shows that is causal.
I think there is a discussion to be had about the possibility that ADHD and autism increase the risk of other conditions that may then require more antibiotics. I'd like to see a more detailed study trying to tease correlation/causation out before making a statement like `The findings suggest links to immunodysregulation and metabolism, compounded by ... antibiotics`
Unless I'm missing something, there is no causal analysis in this study.
I am a parent of a kid on ASD. We did this 10 years ago. There was a Dr Boch who was popular for this and there have been parents and doctors talking about this for a long time (and were dismissed as kooks).
If there weren’t for the big pharma industrial complex and modern liberals’ unconditional support for big pharma, we would also be talking and studying more about vaccine induced autism.
If there weren’t for the big pharma industrial complex and modern liberals’ unconditional support for big pharma, we would also be talking and studying more about vaccine induced autism.
There is no group other than "big pharma" that has been successfully finding cures to serious medical conditions.
There is no group other than "big pharma" that has massively extended average life expectancy over the past 100+ years.
It is insane that there is such a large group of people trying to drag us back to the past where snakeoil salesmen sold fake medicine and basically every aspect of our collective health was worse.
There is no group other than "big pharma" that has massively extended average life expectancy over the past 100+ years.
It is insane that there is such a large group of people trying to drag us back to the past where snakeoil salesmen sold fake medicine and basically every aspect of our collective health was worse.
There is also no group other than big pharma that have paid as much criminal fines in the history of commerce. So instead of cultivating a religious faith in whatever they are pushing, be skeptical and do some due diligence.
I doubt that. I think banks have probably paid more, and I don't think it is even close.
https://www.enzuzo.com/blog/biggest-compliance-fines
Pharma is a massive sector of the economy though, partially because it has delivered so many miracles. Of course there are bad actors in such a large part of the economy, but the idea that there is some better alternative we should turn to is not supported by any evidence at all.
https://www.enzuzo.com/blog/biggest-compliance-fines
Pharma is a massive sector of the economy though, partially because it has delivered so many miracles. Of course there are bad actors in such a large part of the economy, but the idea that there is some better alternative we should turn to is not supported by any evidence at all.
> American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. and its subsidiary Pharmacia & Upjohn Company Inc. (hereinafter together "Pfizer") have agreed to pay $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the Department of Justice, to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from the illegal promotion of certain pharmaceutical products, the Justice Department announced today.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-...
Most people here would not download third party libraries without a thorough audit, even if the application purpose is essentially frivolous. I would not buy anything from a company with this kind of criminal record without a full due diligence of what they selling, including conflicts of interests of the FDA reviewers involved.
Financial products sold by the banks must be treated that way too.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-...
Most people here would not download third party libraries without a thorough audit, even if the application purpose is essentially frivolous. I would not buy anything from a company with this kind of criminal record without a full due diligence of what they selling, including conflicts of interests of the FDA reviewers involved.
Financial products sold by the banks must be treated that way too.
You could find similar judgements in any large area of the economy. You, me and everyone else buys from companies without a full due diligence of what they selling on a nearly daily basis.
We all buy gas, food, paper products and basically everything from conglomerate companies that have done horrible, criminal things. That is just how the world works.
We all buy gas, food, paper products and basically everything from conglomerate companies that have done horrible, criminal things. That is just how the world works.
I've been as willing as anybody to believe theories (long commonplace among alt-med communities) like "it's antibiotics", "it's candida yeast" (or insert any other bacterial/fungus/parasite/virus species you can point to), "it's the effect of vaccines on the microbiome", "it's due to microbial dysbiosis in utero".
And after nearly 20 years of researching/contemplating/experimenting, I just find myself thinking "there's no singular, simple explanation or solution". And really, nor should there be; the body is a highly complex system.
Microbiome matters – but there's plenty of stuff you can do to improve it. Metals (mercury, lead, etc) and other environmental toxins (PFAS and other endocrine disruptors [1]) matter – but they can be detoxified over time via some fairly safe and non-invasive techniques. Inflammation matters a lot – and all kinds of things to do with diet, allergens, microbiome influence that. Genetics matter – but probably less than we presume, once all the other factors are considered and addressed (and it's probably more a case of genetic expression in response to stressors, rather than anything hard-coded/deterministic).
A big perspective-shift for me was finding that emotions and trauma matter a huge amount. This is the least-researched and discussed, both in mainstream and the alt-med circles, but in my own experience, nothing has made a bigger difference to my life outcomes (including physiological symptoms like inflammation) than regularly practicing techniques that identify and release deeply-held emotional complexes.
It can seem like an implausible, fringe theory until you think about it this way: if a person is perpetually traumatised, they can be in a "fight/flight/freeze" state, which takes up much of the body's energy and resources, instead of that being directed to healthy immunity (dealing with harmful microbes and allergens), digestion, metabolism, detoxification, tissue repair/growth etc.
And just to confound things even further, having to deal with an unhealthy microbiome in utero or early life can be a cause of trauma (just as it can be in later life when an infection like Epstein Barr can lead to CFS/ME).
I know this all seems very nebulous and speculative; it's taken me a long time to get my head around, but my takeaway after all this time is that to correct these kinds of conditions, these factors all need to be addressed in parallel: emotions, microbiome, toxicity, diet/nutrition.
I'm quite sure there will be no complete understanding and remedy for conditions like ASD and ADHD that doesn't incorporate all these factors.
[1] https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2022/07/what-are-endo...