Huawei's latest flagship smartphone contains no world-shaking silicon surprises(theregister.com)
theregister.com
Huawei's latest flagship smartphone contains no world-shaking silicon surprises
https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/19/huawei_pura_70_soc_advances/
53 comments
> (1) there are only about 3 big browser vendors in the world, and even Firefox and Safari are lagging in features and bug fixes
Are you forgetting WeChat? Because that's all they likely care about.
Are you forgetting WeChat? Because that's all they likely care about.
The X5 browser core in WeChat seems to be based on Chromium (and was vulnerable to Chromium-only vulnerability CVE-2023-4357)
Do they ship their own browser?
WeChat is a 'super app' to the point that you don't need really a browser in China anymore. It's a mobile first based ecosystem (WeChat, XHS, Douban, Taobao, etc)
I know that. But is there no web access at all?
> This needs a lot more context. My understanding is that at this time HarmonyOS is still fully compatible with Android and you can just install apk files like you would do on any other Android device. They are doing their own stuff at low level, and it is reported that "HarmonyOS Next" will be incompatible with Android (no idea what that will look like), but to say HarmonyOS 4.2 is "not-Android" means as much as saying Amazon's Fire tablets are not using Android.
This largely matches my understanding. NEXT is supposed to be 5.x, until then it still has APK compatibility and AOSP compatibility (no Play services of course).
> And I am skeptical about the HarmonyOS Next thing and can't see how its fate could be different from Windows Phone if Android apps are out of the question...
Their approach is a little different than throwing something new at the wall and hoping it sticks and I actually see it working. E.g. HarmonyOS 4.x can and does already run non-APK Harmony apps, it just also runs APKs. This is why the article notes the growth of native Harmony apps prior to Harmony NEXT even launching - the transition already started. This also means Huawei has had time to do things like have the existing nweb (Chromium based browser) port while working on ArkWeb (in house browser) to replace the outside dependency wholesale. The browsers are great examples of the progressive strategy - slowly build more independent options over the years at the same time you slowly replace the backend OS over years and now you've done all of these "impossible" things without ever having the "big moment" replacement people can easily reject.
This largely matches my understanding. NEXT is supposed to be 5.x, until then it still has APK compatibility and AOSP compatibility (no Play services of course).
> And I am skeptical about the HarmonyOS Next thing and can't see how its fate could be different from Windows Phone if Android apps are out of the question...
Their approach is a little different than throwing something new at the wall and hoping it sticks and I actually see it working. E.g. HarmonyOS 4.x can and does already run non-APK Harmony apps, it just also runs APKs. This is why the article notes the growth of native Harmony apps prior to Harmony NEXT even launching - the transition already started. This also means Huawei has had time to do things like have the existing nweb (Chromium based browser) port while working on ArkWeb (in house browser) to replace the outside dependency wholesale. The browsers are great examples of the progressive strategy - slowly build more independent options over the years at the same time you slowly replace the backend OS over years and now you've done all of these "impossible" things without ever having the "big moment" replacement people can easily reject.
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AIUI, HarmonyOS is a microkernel, multiserver OS developed by a team in Europe which includes developers who were or are still involved in HelenOS.
Such a system would be, at a fundamental level, better than Android and IOS.
Such a system would be, at a fundamental level, better than Android and IOS.
Context: Article pointing out the new chip is still on SMIC 7nm. It's still technically impressive SMIC was able to produce 7nm under sanctions conditions and was able to hit this process node within a year or so of Intel 7.
The 'world-shaking silicon surprises' would be if SMIC can hit 5nm at some point with or without EUV (since they are not able to buy ASML's machines).
The 'world-shaking silicon surprises' would be if SMIC can hit 5nm at some point with or without EUV (since they are not able to buy ASML's machines).
You mean it's technically impressive that SMIC was able to produce 7nm within six years of TSMC? Intel has been quite far behind.
https://www.semianalysis.com/p/chinas-smic-is-shipping-7nm-f...
> Initial images suggest it is a close copy of TSMC 7nm process technology. -TechInsights Product Brief
It would have been legally impressive if Intel similarly closely copied TSMC’s 7nm process without getting sued. And copying within six years isn’t technically impressive.
> Initial images suggest it is a close copy of TSMC 7nm process technology. -TechInsights Product Brief
It would have been legally impressive if Intel similarly closely copied TSMC’s 7nm process without getting sued. And copying within six years isn’t technically impressive.
Intel is bound by western intellectual property laws. SMIC can parallel construct a story to discover their stolen tech process.
It’s worth considering that the presumption of intellectual superiority is what led the west to this point
I do not look down upon Chinese society, or their technological achievements. Even making a derivative chip is a achievement in itself.
However by all analysis, the chip is a derivative of TSMC technology. If TSMC and SMIC are not collaborating, then Occam's Razor leads us to the tech/process being stolen.
However by all analysis, the chip is a derivative of TSMC technology. If TSMC and SMIC are not collaborating, then Occam's Razor leads us to the tech/process being stolen.
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Bluntly frankly, it really doesn't matter how or why China has 7nm process nodes. What matters is they do, and that arguably makes them superior to Intel and thusly the USA; remember that Intel 7 is 10nm, for whatever value "nm" still holds.
This fact should fucking terrify all Americans, and indeed the west at large.
This fact should fucking terrify all Americans, and indeed the west at large.
Terrify ? I'm French and live in China: nobody in France is terrified by the US or China being better at chips. We're better at other things and import chips by giving them euros, and the fools take the trade, so we continue.
And in China, frankly, we have so much needs internally, it's more to power our own crap than to send weapons, or overpower foreign markets. We barely speak English and the americans don't take much Yuans, so their stuff is expensive :(
Be less terrified, and maybe contribute more than just patent rents? It's ok to compete, we're not gonna be at war. Or if we are, we are so corrupt that we put water in the fuel tanks of our missiles: you have nothing to fear.
And in China, frankly, we have so much needs internally, it's more to power our own crap than to send weapons, or overpower foreign markets. We barely speak English and the americans don't take much Yuans, so their stuff is expensive :(
Be less terrified, and maybe contribute more than just patent rents? It's ok to compete, we're not gonna be at war. Or if we are, we are so corrupt that we put water in the fuel tanks of our missiles: you have nothing to fear.
It's terrifying because these things are all signs that the era of Pax Americana is coming to a close, likely more swiftly than any of us realize, to be succeeded by the era of Pax Sino.
I for one overall enjoy(ed?) the Pax Americana state of affairs, but Pax Americana exists on the premise of absolute economical and technological superiority against would-be challengers.
We are well on our way to lose our economical superiority this century, and we already lost our technological superiority; our military superiority will also vanish once we lose both of the aforementioned, too.
Pax Sino will be nowhere as comfortable or prosperous an era (for westerners!) to live in. That is why this is terrifying.
I for one overall enjoy(ed?) the Pax Americana state of affairs, but Pax Americana exists on the premise of absolute economical and technological superiority against would-be challengers.
We are well on our way to lose our economical superiority this century, and we already lost our technological superiority; our military superiority will also vanish once we lose both of the aforementioned, too.
Pax Sino will be nowhere as comfortable or prosperous an era (for westerners!) to live in. That is why this is terrifying.
Pax-Sino will not be a thing.
Pax-Americana existed because of two qualities that America has, but China does not.
1) America has a very unique interest in the foreign affairs of others. So much so that America is "hated" for it, and America has built a global navy to enforce its interests. China, both historically and currently, is hands off to the affairs of others if they do not represent a direct Chinese interest.
2) Foreign entities joined in on Pax-Americanan economic system (capitalism) because it made them rich as well, just not as rich as America. China themselves joined in and benefited. However, there is no part of the Chinese economic system that is interested in making others rich. They take an opposing approach, they give others the tools to keep power (through surveillance). (America gives countries the power to keep power as well through military sales, but the major factor is economic, not military).
Pax-Americana existed because of two qualities that America has, but China does not.
1) America has a very unique interest in the foreign affairs of others. So much so that America is "hated" for it, and America has built a global navy to enforce its interests. China, both historically and currently, is hands off to the affairs of others if they do not represent a direct Chinese interest.
2) Foreign entities joined in on Pax-Americanan economic system (capitalism) because it made them rich as well, just not as rich as America. China themselves joined in and benefited. However, there is no part of the Chinese economic system that is interested in making others rich. They take an opposing approach, they give others the tools to keep power (through surveillance). (America gives countries the power to keep power as well through military sales, but the major factor is economic, not military).
They very likely spent 6 years copying another company, and we able to produce a technology 1 year after Intel.
Clearly superior.
Clearly superior.
Well, China's pumping out 7nm silicon by themselves now, en masse, and selling them for top yuans. Another guy here mentioned they're on par performance wise to Qualcomm's Snapdragon 888 line, that's fucking crazy, fucking impressive, and fucking terrifying.
Intel barely has Intel 4 (7nm) stumbling out the door on a wheelchair with square wheels if Meteor Lake has been anything to go by, their foundry business is bleeding out red ink, and they're even dependent on TSMC now: They aren't self sufficient anymore.
You tell me which is superior, because if you ask me it's not the blue guy whose name starts with I, and by extension it's not the guy in red/white/blue whose name starts with U.
Intel barely has Intel 4 (7nm) stumbling out the door on a wheelchair with square wheels if Meteor Lake has been anything to go by, their foundry business is bleeding out red ink, and they're even dependent on TSMC now: They aren't self sufficient anymore.
You tell me which is superior, because if you ask me it's not the blue guy whose name starts with I, and by extension it's not the guy in red/white/blue whose name starts with U.
Agree to disagree then :)
What would "this point" be?
China has a population the size of the US and EU combined, and are every bit as capable intellectually. One would expect them to catch up technologically, all else being equal. I don't think that requires any false presumptions.
Also, ime, the west has only ever presumed political superiority, not intellectual. Not unless you're talking about fringe people, in which case I'd point out that every nation has a minority of rabid ethnocentrists, and the west generally denounces theirs to a greater degree than China itself does.
China has a population the size of the US and EU combined, and are every bit as capable intellectually. One would expect them to catch up technologically, all else being equal. I don't think that requires any false presumptions.
Also, ime, the west has only ever presumed political superiority, not intellectual. Not unless you're talking about fringe people, in which case I'd point out that every nation has a minority of rabid ethnocentrists, and the west generally denounces theirs to a greater degree than China itself does.
I think it’s naive to not see globalisation in the context of assuming the nations doing the ‘lower level work’ wouldn’t move up the ‘value chain’. Perhaps that’s hindsight being applied to historical trade assumptions, and perhaps it’s simply capitalism undervaluing long term investments, but I think the question is still relevant in the context of the post which repeats the trope of they must be copying the west
You're engaging in straw man.
Your original post took umbrage with the "downplaying" of the the intellectual/creative capacity of China compared to the West. You also implied that that has led to the current state of affairs. No one said that China was less than the West. It is however fact China has benefited from the stealing of secrets from the West (nuclear technology, stealth tech from the F-117, stealth tech from Boeing, and in this case, chip designs from TSMC). This is not a trope, it is fact.
Your original post took umbrage with the "downplaying" of the the intellectual/creative capacity of China compared to the West. You also implied that that has led to the current state of affairs. No one said that China was less than the West. It is however fact China has benefited from the stealing of secrets from the West (nuclear technology, stealth tech from the F-117, stealth tech from Boeing, and in this case, chip designs from TSMC). This is not a trope, it is fact.
I’m really not. A straw man is constructing a different argument that is easier to ‘beat’. I’m simply pointing out that the concept of outsourcing ‘lesser than’ jobs to Asia without considering that they will climb the value chain has an implied sense of intellectual superiority in it. I also point out the alternatives to that very point — capitalism tends away from long term investment and it’s possible that hindsight is retrofitting the argument of superiority. If you look at the British Empire though, there is historical precedent of arrogance and that arrogance persists without doubt in European culture. Just check out Musk and his great replacement theory views for a sense of how deeply race is ingrained into the economic psyche of significantly influential people. But, again, this is a point I’m making as a contributing factor — underestimating capabilities is not smart. Citations for your secret stealing points? But tbh it feels like this is a bot/troll engaging in Twitter-esq time sinking
For reference the chip comes half-a-year after the original (9000). It's far more of a refresh than anything (as the name 9010 implies).
Still seriously behind Qualcomm and the likes, roughly the level of an 888. Interestingly 9010's IPC (~25% gen-on-gen) is roughly SNPD 2 (last years QC flagship) but it clocks to a max of 2.3 GHz. Curious what the performance would've been had Huawei still been allowed on TSMC nodes.
Still seriously behind Qualcomm and the likes, roughly the level of an 888. Interestingly 9010's IPC (~25% gen-on-gen) is roughly SNPD 2 (last years QC flagship) but it clocks to a max of 2.3 GHz. Curious what the performance would've been had Huawei still been allowed on TSMC nodes.
maybe I’m getting old but I still have yet to desire anything more than this iPhone 13 mini I picked up when the 14 came out without a mini, still waiting to drop it or find something worth upgrading to… heck if the next big feature for iPhone is AI I may even say nah I’m good, tech feels like a weird plateau right now, or I’m just getting old
does it contain CCP software surprises?
also no, lol
definitely yes, lol
All those lulz got me thinking what if the Havana syndrome generator can be miniaturized and integrated into smartphones, and activated by an ubiquitous process like overloading the energy consumption of the chip with an apparent system bug. They would have created a brain frying grenade taken straight from some GI Joe sunday cartoon.
You're going to like this:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2802144/
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2802144/
Multiple sci-fi plots are that very premise. Just like this chip, no ground braking idea in this thread either
Why would anyone outside china buy this phone?
For the same reasons anyone buys anything: it does what they need/want for cheap enough and good enough.
The phone is quite expensive actually.
Yes, about 1050 €, but I said 'cheap enough' not 'cheap'. iPhone 15 Pro is about 1229 €. People buy those too.
You missed the requirement that it be better than comparably priced options. Hard to find a reason to buy this over other flagship Androids other than wanting to be more integrated with a Chinese software ecosystem.
Because it may be cheap, available, and gasp aligning with China might not be so bad overall compared to alternatives.
Yup. Go to Japan and there are entire sections of electronics stores dedicated to Huawei phones.
What about the Japanese manufacturers, you might ask? Well apparently there's so much Sony Xperia smartphone stock that NTT DOCOMO is selling them for just 10 yen each with the purchase of a new contract.
I'd say the only reason we don't see Huawei in English-West is because we were more preemptive in kicking them out of our markets.
What about the Japanese manufacturers, you might ask? Well apparently there's so much Sony Xperia smartphone stock that NTT DOCOMO is selling them for just 10 yen each with the purchase of a new contract.
I'd say the only reason we don't see Huawei in English-West is because we were more preemptive in kicking them out of our markets.
I've liked Xperia and wanted to buy them in the US for years. My last Android phone was an Xperia ion. The lack of software and carrier support and the fact that they have you send stuff to the same S Texas based service center that does Playstations doesn't bode well.
They enjoy the built-in surveillance of a totalitarian regime.
Stunningly, Carlson tells Rogan that congressmen were "terrified" that intelligence agencies will frame them with "kiddie porn" if they openly opposed the "warrantless spying" bill.
Specifically, he says US lawmakers "told" him that they are "worried" about being punished by intel agencies if they oppose reauthorizing Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).
"People don't say that because they're worried about being punished. They’re worried about someone putting kiddie porn on their computer. Members of Congress are terrified of the intel agencies. I'm not guessing at that. They've told me that — including people on the intel committee, including people who run the intel committee," Carlson said.
https://twitter.com/MJTruthUltra/status/1781726793076019478
Specifically, he says US lawmakers "told" him that they are "worried" about being punished by intel agencies if they oppose reauthorizing Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).
"People don't say that because they're worried about being punished. They’re worried about someone putting kiddie porn on their computer. Members of Congress are terrified of the intel agencies. I'm not guessing at that. They've told me that — including people on the intel committee, including people who run the intel committee," Carlson said.
https://twitter.com/MJTruthUltra/status/1781726793076019478
I would trust a quote from Nixon before I would trust a quote from Carlson
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The claims are entirely plausible and fit the operating model. I suppose everyone forgot how Paddock got CP'd even though it was totally unnecessary except it made people stop asking more questions about him because he could be "written off" just like that. He was a fall guy for a larger clandestine operation that went wrong. Even back then the Internet was so quickly scrubbed of his information is was shocking how well organized the erasure process was across many sites.
Solid is good.
This needs a lot more context. My understanding is that at this time HarmonyOS is still fully compatible with Android and you can just install apk files like you would do on any other Android device. They are doing their own stuff at low level, and it is reported that "HarmonyOS Next" will be incompatible with Android (no idea what that will look like), but to say HarmonyOS 4.2 is "not-Android" means as much as saying Amazon's Fire tablets are not using Android.
And I am skeptical about the HarmonyOS Next thing and can't see how its fate could be different from Windows Phone if Android apps are out of the question. While it is true that China itself is a huge market, and there are enough users and developers to demand an "in-house" OS, there are a few obvious, big hurdles -- app ecosystem, browser etc. Of course Huawei can throw money at the problem and get developers on board, but one needs to be aware that (1) there are only about 3 big browser vendors in the world, and even Firefox and Safari are lagging in features and bug fixes (2) even in China Huawei needs to compete with other phone makers who are using Android, and developers need to support Android, iOS and Harmony OS. I am not optimistic about this.