Breathwork supports emergence of altered states of consciousness(researchsquare.com)
researchsquare.com
Breathwork supports emergence of altered states of consciousness
https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-3976380/v1
124 comments
It also leaves you in a very suggestive state. I did several sessions with a “rebirther” years ago, basically holotropic breath work. I decided I didn’t really need it, and I went in my last few sessions determined to quit, but at the end of the session, the practitioner always managed to convince me I needed another session. I eventually broke it off with him over the phone.
It sounds like you experienced oxygen deprivation.
how do you suppose he got oxygen deprivation by breathing deeply?
You don't get more oxygen by breathing more. When you breath more the CO2 is expelled from your blood and hemoglobin cannot efficiently collect and transmit O2 in the absence of some specific amount of CO2. In fact most people overbreathe, and they should be breathing less to be optimally oxygenized.
See https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30252284/
The book Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art details the journey of James Nestor as he goes over all these different methods and exercises, it's the #1 book I recommend to everyone. The number one certain conclusion to take home from the book that'll literally extend your lifespan significantly: Don't mouthbreathe, never ever.
See https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30252284/
The book Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art details the journey of James Nestor as he goes over all these different methods and exercises, it's the #1 book I recommend to everyone. The number one certain conclusion to take home from the book that'll literally extend your lifespan significantly: Don't mouthbreathe, never ever.
Huh. I always associated hyper ventilating as a mechanism to increase O2 in the body allowing for longer free dives, etc.
Looks like those benefits mostly come from lower initial CO2.
https://www.deeperblue.com/why-do-so-many-freedivers-hyperve...
Looks like those benefits mostly come from lower initial CO2.
https://www.deeperblue.com/why-do-so-many-freedivers-hyperve...
While Bohr effect is a real thing obviously, your description doesn't seem to be fully correct (though it's not my field of expertise). Haemoglobin will link with O₂ just fine when level of CO₂ is decreased, only release of it in tissues will be negatively affected. But it's not like it stops at all, and to me it's not clear if it can really lead to a full-scale oxygen deprivation. Blood low acidity resulting from low CO₂ can explain symptoms like involuntary muscle contractions described by that poster above on its own
How long before this become a TIL on Reddit? I'm guessing it's already in the que. Then it will slowly make it's way to different sites with titles like 'This one thing is ruining you energy level'...'5 quick hacks to increase your oxygen levels, you will never guess what number 5 is'...
Aerbil313 putting in the hard work to keep the content wheels of society turning!
But I do love seeing these 'echos' bounce from discussions like this off into public consciousness then into the randomest places.
Aerbil313 putting in the hard work to keep the content wheels of society turning!
But I do love seeing these 'echos' bounce from discussions like this off into public consciousness then into the randomest places.
The hypoxia/suffocation instinct, the irresistible urge to breathe, is caused by carbon dioxide levels in the blood. The nervous system has no means of directly detecting oxygen, or its absence. If you walk into a room of pure nitrogen there is almost no warning. The CO2 levels remain low, everything is fine while all your oxygen is rapidly dumped to the oxygen-free air - two deep breaths gets rid of most of it. Another 15 seconds after that you are dizzy, another 15 to 45 after that you are unconscious. Terrible design, IMHO, but presumably not a common situation in the ancient environment.
If you hyperventilate, it drives out the carbonic acid and CO2 in the body. But the blood is normally already near saturation for oxygen. This unusually low level of CO2 allows you to hold your breath much longer by suppressing the suffocation response, sometimes to the point of unconsciousness. You don't realize you should breathe. You feel fine, just a little lighthea... This is why you should never hyperventilate before diving under water.
If you hyperventilate, it drives out the carbonic acid and CO2 in the body. But the blood is normally already near saturation for oxygen. This unusually low level of CO2 allows you to hold your breath much longer by suppressing the suffocation response, sometimes to the point of unconsciousness. You don't realize you should breathe. You feel fine, just a little lighthea... This is why you should never hyperventilate before diving under water.
oxygen deprivation is not euphoric. shouldn't be so flippantly reductive
I thought it was common knowledge that it is in fact euphoric. Happy to be told I’m wrong though.
(Think of nitrous oxide and .. the thing with asphyxiation and a certain pleasurable activity)
(Think of nitrous oxide and .. the thing with asphyxiation and a certain pleasurable activity)
Definitely mildly euphoric and relaxing. Source: have been choked out in BJJ training a few times. Woke up happy and relaxed every time.
It is common knowledge. Kids play the choking game, people die from autoerotic asphyxiation, and folks who fly or dive are trained to recognize the symptoms as well.
The burning feeling that you get when your hold your breath is a build up of CO2, not a lack of O2.
PDF warning: https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media...
The burning feeling that you get when your hold your breath is a build up of CO2, not a lack of O2.
PDF warning: https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media...
I've heard about people awakening their kundalini with that. It fucked them for years since they had no clue what was happening, and no preparation or support.
What changes with oneself when they awaken their kundalini?
Extraordinary sensitivity, internally and externally. It's considered a very advanced practice because without a trained mind it is extremely jarring, will induce anxiety and maybe make you start thinking that you have psychic abilities (or schizophrenia).
You mean someone awakened their kundalini, wasn't aware of it, and it took years for them to figure it out? Can you describe the symptoms?
No, they were very aware of it. Huge energy surges, hallucinations, emotions go haywire, etc. It can take years to stabilise if you don't know what you're doing, and apparently you can easily question your sanity (even if you know what to expect - if you have no guide you might really struggle with understanding the process).
One guy would nearly pass out every time he got an erection, some people have a phase of not being able to eat anything but yoghurt or milk, etc. Huge changes, like a second puberty.
One guy would nearly pass out every time he got an erection, some people have a phase of not being able to eat anything but yoghurt or milk, etc. Huge changes, like a second puberty.
Yes! Holotropic is crazy strong. I remember having to sign a waiver that was akin to a skydiving waiver before doing holotropic breathwork session online. Highly recommended if you feel inclined to try it.
It can be deeply emotional for some.
This sounds great but I just can't get by the oxygen deprivation and potential harm to your brain. Not to mention the hypercapnia induced tetany is very uncomfortable and seems a clear signal from the body that "this isn't good!".
[As part of a psychedelic retreat we did breathwork the day before the trip to "open the mind". I faked it because I was worried about the above unanswered questions I had. I still had a great trip and feel no need for another one or similar (ie. via breathwork) to this day. :) ]
[As part of a psychedelic retreat we did breathwork the day before the trip to "open the mind". I faked it because I was worried about the above unanswered questions I had. I still had a great trip and feel no need for another one or similar (ie. via breathwork) to this day. :) ]
Oxygen deprivation? As noted in the study, circular breathwork has been shown to increase blood oxygenation
In response to this there is vasoconstriction of the cerebral vasculature. No one knows if mild damage is being done to the brain from this.
Somewhat related (not exact same mechanism, but similar), there is evidence elite free-divers are harming their brains [1]. It is easy enough to find literature about the appearance of SB100 protein with too long apnea training (eg. [2]).
However, breath-holding/apnea is not the same as breathwork. The fact of the matter is, there will be no definitive proof one way or the other until someone directly probes cerebral O2 levels for an acute and chronic intervention of breathwork. Again, as someone who has indeed done psychedelics and meditates, I am open to alternative modalities, but I will personally wait for the science over anecdotes.
[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29053942 [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19574501/
Somewhat related (not exact same mechanism, but similar), there is evidence elite free-divers are harming their brains [1]. It is easy enough to find literature about the appearance of SB100 protein with too long apnea training (eg. [2]).
However, breath-holding/apnea is not the same as breathwork. The fact of the matter is, there will be no definitive proof one way or the other until someone directly probes cerebral O2 levels for an acute and chronic intervention of breathwork. Again, as someone who has indeed done psychedelics and meditates, I am open to alternative modalities, but I will personally wait for the science over anecdotes.
[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29053942 [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19574501/
At least I appreciate they have the decency to not call it "higher states of consciousness". Altered is what they are, altered almost to the point of losing it, but definitely not higher - at least for my understanding where "higher" would mean some added capabilities not attained otherwise.
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I feel the same. I did it once and had a big experience, but I just can my talk myself into believing it’s safe.
Free divers experience the same hypoxia and hypercapnia effects. Doesn't seem to be a problem.
I think I recall reading a paper a while back on free divers that showed there was damage being done to the brain even though it wasn't immediately apparent. Similar to how lots of small brain impacts add up in football players.
> Doesn't seem to be a problem
I'm almost certain any amount of oxygen deprivation is damaging to the brain. If there were studies that showed conclusions to the contrary, I'd be very curious to read them.
I'm almost certain any amount of oxygen deprivation is damaging to the brain. If there were studies that showed conclusions to the contrary, I'd be very curious to read them.
They die all the time. It's a problem. :P
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As wim would say, get high on your own supply.
But in seriousness hyperoxia is mildly psychedelic, especially when you are in a state (athletic, euphoric, love etc) which naturally produces high levels of serotonin, oxytocin, dopamine, etc.
When I was backpacking for 7 months with my wife, I would climb mountains as fast as I could and wait for her at the tops. I started doing wim hof while waiting and it was deeply rewarding
But in seriousness hyperoxia is mildly psychedelic, especially when you are in a state (athletic, euphoric, love etc) which naturally produces high levels of serotonin, oxytocin, dopamine, etc.
When I was backpacking for 7 months with my wife, I would climb mountains as fast as I could and wait for her at the tops. I started doing wim hof while waiting and it was deeply rewarding
To add to this - if you get buried in an avalanche you likely go hypoxic. Many people pulled out sometimes in the moment react negatively to be saved as they are pulled out of a euphoric state even though they are literally getting saved from death.
Just don't do Wim Hof type breathing while driving, near water or risk of fall is high. You can pass out or faint easily if you do it a little wrong.
Thank you for introducing me to this. Having done just one round, the effects are reminiscent of nitrous oxide. Very interesting indeed! As you suggest, I think I'll try this again after a bout of vigorous exercise.
What specifically did you try? The wim hof breathing method after strenuous exercise?
Wim hof, no exercise. (but will do so later, after my normal workout routine)
As others in the thread have said, this may not be any better for my health than N2O, but it's still interesting nonetheless. Probably not something for every day.
As others in the thread have said, this may not be any better for my health than N2O, but it's still interesting nonetheless. Probably not something for every day.
Did you feel like it was “good” for you in any way? I’ve experienced the euphoria and I definitely compare it to nitrous oxide, in that it is pleasurable, fleeting and unfulfilling. Plus I sometimes ended up with a persistent headache.
It made me feel better temporarily in a time of distress, but like any drug, it only numbed me and did nothing to improve my outlook.
It made me feel better temporarily in a time of distress, but like any drug, it only numbed me and did nothing to improve my outlook.
Wim hof feels great, but I always kinda feel like I’m doing something mildly unhealthy when I do it
How exactly do you ‘do’ wim hof and for how long?
The Wim Hof method is explained here:
https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises
https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises
Here’s a guided video by Wim Hof, you can just listen to it while you lay down and follow along:
https://youtu.be/0BNejY1e9ik?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/0BNejY1e9ik?feature=shared
If you’re open to it, I can teach you. My email is in my profile
Sounds counter intuitive but breathwork reduces o2 to brain. Basically due to reduced co2, blood vessels in the brain constrict.
Having said that, I worked with a breathwork teacher for a while, creating narrative for the session, for mental imagery and guidance. It also had music as a backdrop. Fun times. And it was definitely altered state for a lot of people.
Having said that, I worked with a breathwork teacher for a while, creating narrative for the session, for mental imagery and guidance. It also had music as a backdrop. Fun times. And it was definitely altered state for a lot of people.
EXACTLY! That's why you breathe into a paper-bag (or smoke) to increase CO2 so that the filters open and you get to a point where you feel O2 tingles all over your brain. This is extremely powerful; I practiced that and underwater held-breath swimming and hanging out underwater for a long time to obtain permanent changes that have made me far more effective. Based on work first published by W.Wenger out of a Maryland Think-tank some 50? years ago.
So wim hof method, by breathing a lot, deprives you of oxygen, reducing brain functionality and therefore giving you a drug-like pleasure, whereas recycling air in a bag ends up giving you more oxygen and increasing brain efficiency? May sound like sarcasm, but honestly, do I need a diving gear to test it on myself or is a paper bag enough?
What kind of changes?
I think they are referring to this:
https://winwenger.com/books/books-online/two-guaranteed-ways...
"For accumulating 20 hours of held-breath underwater swimming within 3 weeks from start to finish– 10 or more points I.Q. gain; better span of attention; better span of awareness; better awareness of the interrelatedness of things and of ideas and/or perceptions; finding yourself way better at winning arguments or disputes!"
It should go without saying this is nonsense.
"For accumulating 20 hours of held-breath underwater swimming within 3 weeks from start to finish– 10 or more points I.Q. gain; better span of attention; better span of awareness; better awareness of the interrelatedness of things and of ideas and/or perceptions; finding yourself way better at winning arguments or disputes!"
It should go without saying this is nonsense.
This is probably nonsense for a healthy person but for someone who doesn’t get enough o2 it probably has the same benefits of a person who does.
That's the kind of inference that allows these claims to proliferate.
This article makes a lot of claims about I.Q. scores before and after holding breath (specifically underwater, for some reason), but there are no links to studies, no mention of who or how many people participated, etc.
This is the definition of a baseless claim.
This article makes a lot of claims about I.Q. scores before and after holding breath (specifically underwater, for some reason), but there are no links to studies, no mention of who or how many people participated, etc.
This is the definition of a baseless claim.
Perhaps being under water makes it harder to “cheat”.
Any pointers to read more ?
My GP friends only pointed me to respiratory alcalosis, which doesn’t appear to be about O2 levels at all - it’s the pH being out of the narrow “acceptable” band (too low in the case of hyperventilation) appeared to cause a lot of effect.
My GP friends only pointed me to respiratory alcalosis, which doesn’t appear to be about O2 levels at all - it’s the pH being out of the narrow “acceptable” band (too low in the case of hyperventilation) appeared to cause a lot of effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation - This leads to hypocapnia, a reduced concentration of carbon dioxide dissolved in the blood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocapnia - Acute hypocapnia causes hypocapnic alkalosis, which causes cerebral vasoconstriction leading to cerebral hypoxia
Though not acute, you can see the effects very easily. Within couple of minutes of deep breathing we could create peripheral numbing and tingling effect. (yoga folk say you are feeling energy moving though body and that kind of stuff haha)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocapnia - Acute hypocapnia causes hypocapnic alkalosis, which causes cerebral vasoconstriction leading to cerebral hypoxia
Though not acute, you can see the effects very easily. Within couple of minutes of deep breathing we could create peripheral numbing and tingling effect. (yoga folk say you are feeling energy moving though body and that kind of stuff haha)
Thank you! The second link was the missing one for me ;-)
I did a breath work session once out of curiosity, but it was so much voodoo talk and so much obvious exploitative power dynamics from the “guru” after the session, I could barely hold my disgust. (But yeah, I got both tingling and cramps on top of that)
Deliberately reducing the oxygen to the brain sounds like a not so good plan to me, regardless of what it is caused by…
I recently acquired the pulse oximeter that can be worn during sleep, and the correlation of oxygen levels during the night with how I feel in the morning is seemingly pretty strong.
I did a breath work session once out of curiosity, but it was so much voodoo talk and so much obvious exploitative power dynamics from the “guru” after the session, I could barely hold my disgust. (But yeah, I got both tingling and cramps on top of that)
Deliberately reducing the oxygen to the brain sounds like a not so good plan to me, regardless of what it is caused by…
I recently acquired the pulse oximeter that can be worn during sleep, and the correlation of oxygen levels during the night with how I feel in the morning is seemingly pretty strong.
Was the narrative something like, "you're on a mountaintop. You look around and see..." Or was it more abstract than that?
So the narrative was emotional/trauma release. When people get into altered state, the narrative said that their unresolved emotions would come to surface and be felt into their body and then they accept those things from the past and then the emotions would dissolve and there will be a 'release'. Its a common narrative, I wrote and organized the content so that a first timer would get impressed to expect a release. It worked for several people.
Holotropics has been around for quite a while and some yoga pranayamas also can lead to altered states. I have to admit I find mushrooms easier to deal with.
An ascetic will tell you that a purer experience of spiritual connection is something you can control and remember afterwards.
You remember mushrooms after.
An ascetic will tell you that there was never any experience, nor any experiencer to have had one.
Remember what, the tingling mess and neuronal misfires of endogenous DMT release experience?
There is a always a purer version of any experience. This sounds a little elitist.
Ahhh yes, the bespoke, organic, pesticide free high of the true people. Why struggle when 10-20€ worth of ketamine will make you glide through impossible (un)existence for an hour or so.
Elitism and snobbism in spirituality and meditation circles is real!
Elitism and snobbism in spirituality and meditation circles is real!
Spiritual Elitism Aside.
One method is adjusting CO2/O2 levels. And if Yoga, you are moving and there are body/mind connections, even weight lifters can experience this. Even just stretching.
Versus laying on the couch on drugs.
Psychedelic's do "something", but not the "same thing".
One method is adjusting CO2/O2 levels. And if Yoga, you are moving and there are body/mind connections, even weight lifters can experience this. Even just stretching.
Versus laying on the couch on drugs.
Psychedelic's do "something", but not the "same thing".
I wonder what other effects this has on the body. The signaling around CO2 levels does a lot to cellular respiration everywhere, not just the brain (think krebs cycle, etc).
There's a product out, Freespira, that does breath work training monitored by a nasal cannula, to help people who experience panic attacks. The theory is that such people are chronic hyperventilators, so their blood CO2 is too low for the parasympathetic nervous system to operate correctly.
It didn't end up being a good fit for me, but if a person's PTSD comes from discrete events rather than a continually unsafe environment in early childhood, I think they'd have a better experience. (My parasympathetic nervous system never learned how to operate correctly, but if someone else's did and its function got interrupted later, I think their experience would be different.)
It didn't end up being a good fit for me, but if a person's PTSD comes from discrete events rather than a continually unsafe environment in early childhood, I think they'd have a better experience. (My parasympathetic nervous system never learned how to operate correctly, but if someone else's did and its function got interrupted later, I think their experience would be different.)
Strange side note. I've tried n-acetylcysteine as a supplement/medication, the weirdest thing about it is that I felt like I needed to breathe less often. And like I was breathing manually - which you are also doing now, ha.
I wonder if it helps with panic attacks.
I wonder if it helps with panic attacks.
This makes immediate sense to me after having stumbled upon some of the academic literature on N-acetylcysteine.
There are results on it being anti-anxiety, yes.
Tons and tons of results; Wide scope. Pulmonary and neurobiological.
The wildest paper imo: “N-acetyl cysteine reverses bio-behavioural changes induced by prenatal inflammation, adolescent methamphetamine exposure and combined challenges” – https://doi.org/10.1007/s00213-017-4776-5
It’s just an… :exploding-head: paper.
There are also studies that check if humans fall into or out of various psychiatric disorder diagnostic criteria. Yes, NAC is anti-anxiety.
And! NAC is clearly and obviously mucolytic. Slime-dissolving. Its use as prescription and OTC medicine in my country is—I think, so far—exclusively as a lung-slime dissolver to help people breathe better.
There are results on it being anti-anxiety, yes.
Tons and tons of results; Wide scope. Pulmonary and neurobiological.
The wildest paper imo: “N-acetyl cysteine reverses bio-behavioural changes induced by prenatal inflammation, adolescent methamphetamine exposure and combined challenges” – https://doi.org/10.1007/s00213-017-4776-5
It’s just an… :exploding-head: paper.
There are also studies that check if humans fall into or out of various psychiatric disorder diagnostic criteria. Yes, NAC is anti-anxiety.
And! NAC is clearly and obviously mucolytic. Slime-dissolving. Its use as prescription and OTC medicine in my country is—I think, so far—exclusively as a lung-slime dissolver to help people breathe better.
It's a very interesting paper. However, it's in rats, so among other things the timescale is very compressed compared to humans: we are taking about three NAC reversing changes 1-2 months later
Ah, indeed, I would like to add that I’d never expect anything fully “the same” to happen in us. Nonetheless, it does work!, tons of more studies out there.
It’s wild to me that this substance—sold OTC as a mucolytic!—can have an impact like that in an animal model, and the molecular biology mechanisms of how it happens that the study shows are… well, yes, :exploding-head:
It’s wild to me that this substance—sold OTC as a mucolytic!—can have an impact like that in an animal model, and the molecular biology mechanisms of how it happens that the study shows are… well, yes, :exploding-head:
Interesting! Thanks for the pointer.
I’ve read of a credible person who says they use breathwork of some kind to help enter a state of flow. Does anyone here know if this sounds right? If so, how would one learn? Books? Courses? Coaches? Also, knowing nothing about it I’d assumed the breathwork would be like mindfulness or meditative breathing, but is this wrong? It might be something closer to hyperventilating?
The article mentioned Holotropic Breathwork, which is a method Stanislav Grof came up with after no longer being able to use LSD for his research in the 1960s. I haven't taken a course in it, but it does seem similar to Wim Hof's technique, which you can follow along an intro of on his YouTube [1].
All of it is pretty similar to various pranayama techniques that have existed in the yogas for thousands of years though. Iyengar's Light on Pranayama is a good resource for the various practices [2]. While Wim Hof and Holotropic Breathwork are slightly different, the closest to them from the yogas would maybe be bhastrika pranayam (and here's a random guy on YouTube that comes up when googling it -- just skimming it and it looks basically like what I was taught [3]).
Edit: I realized I didn't answer your question regarding how pranayama/breathwork compares to meditation. It's different than meditation (dhyana or jhana), but it's complimentary and there are elements that are similar. For instance, during pranayama practice you'll often have breath holds/retentions and during that time you'll be instructed to bring your awareness to something (a point on your body, on the awareness itself, etc). This is generally what you'd do in formal meditation practice too, but in this case it's for a much shorter period of time (the length of the breath hold). So in a way it gets you used to working with your awareness, to bring it internal for short periods of time many times. Many people will practice pranayama before beginning formal seated meditation practice. I personally use nadi shodhana before meditation practice, and more vigorous pranayamas like kapalbhati and bhastrika before/during/after asana practice. They're also good to do in the middle of the day when you need a bit of a reset.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tybOi4hjZFQ
[2] https://archive.org/details/iyengar-bks-light-on-pranayama-o...
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I578H4VoZiY
All of it is pretty similar to various pranayama techniques that have existed in the yogas for thousands of years though. Iyengar's Light on Pranayama is a good resource for the various practices [2]. While Wim Hof and Holotropic Breathwork are slightly different, the closest to them from the yogas would maybe be bhastrika pranayam (and here's a random guy on YouTube that comes up when googling it -- just skimming it and it looks basically like what I was taught [3]).
Edit: I realized I didn't answer your question regarding how pranayama/breathwork compares to meditation. It's different than meditation (dhyana or jhana), but it's complimentary and there are elements that are similar. For instance, during pranayama practice you'll often have breath holds/retentions and during that time you'll be instructed to bring your awareness to something (a point on your body, on the awareness itself, etc). This is generally what you'd do in formal meditation practice too, but in this case it's for a much shorter period of time (the length of the breath hold). So in a way it gets you used to working with your awareness, to bring it internal for short periods of time many times. Many people will practice pranayama before beginning formal seated meditation practice. I personally use nadi shodhana before meditation practice, and more vigorous pranayamas like kapalbhati and bhastrika before/during/after asana practice. They're also good to do in the middle of the day when you need a bit of a reset.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tybOi4hjZFQ
[2] https://archive.org/details/iyengar-bks-light-on-pranayama-o...
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I578H4VoZiY
How were you introduced to all of this? I’d love to learn to practice original yoga/meditation.
Oh wow, how to answer succinctly -- it's been a long, meandering path! I'll try my best. While I'd say I first learned about meditation from my music practice as a child, my first formal introduction to meditation was through Thanissaro Bhikkhu [1] who a few of my friends practiced with in college (and later ordained as monks with). I later came to Mahayana Buddhism through Suzuki [2] and Thich Nhat Hanh [3], and then settled into a Vajrayana practice -- I'd suggest Mingyur Rinpoche's Joy of Living course for an intro to Vajrayana [4].
For yoga practice I happened to one day wander into the closest yoga studio to my house here in Brooklyn, which coincidentally happened to be one of the best yoga schools in the city at the time. The owner [5] was exceptionally challenging, all his teachers were the best around, and he really pushed everyone to expand their limits, it was a great environment to learn in. I was going at least 5x per week for a few years. It can be hard to find a yoga school, as most these days are just gym classes, and very few are going to teach pranayama, kriyas, meditation, etc. If I'm in a new place and am looking for a shala to practice in I'll typically choose the place that has Ashtanga/Mysore on the schedule, as it's likely that the owners/teachers aren't just interested in yoga as exercise. I'd really suggest finding a master teacher/s to practice with in real life, there's nothing like it. You'll know it when you find it.
I also read pretty obsessively when I started my yoga practice, some of which I'll leave below [6][7][8][9][10][11]. If you start practicing you'll find the sutras and other texts that speak to you as well, just put in the work and stay curious and open! Happy to answer any questions.
[1] https://www.dhammatalks.org/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Mind,_Beginner%27s_Mind
[3] https://plumvillage.shop/products/books/zen/the-other-shore-...
[4] https://joy.tergar.org/
[5] https://www.instagram.com/wearejared/
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_of_Yoga
[7] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/784289
[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_on_Yoga
[9] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/35455963
[10] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/13542603
[11] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/295000.Cutting_Through_S...
For yoga practice I happened to one day wander into the closest yoga studio to my house here in Brooklyn, which coincidentally happened to be one of the best yoga schools in the city at the time. The owner [5] was exceptionally challenging, all his teachers were the best around, and he really pushed everyone to expand their limits, it was a great environment to learn in. I was going at least 5x per week for a few years. It can be hard to find a yoga school, as most these days are just gym classes, and very few are going to teach pranayama, kriyas, meditation, etc. If I'm in a new place and am looking for a shala to practice in I'll typically choose the place that has Ashtanga/Mysore on the schedule, as it's likely that the owners/teachers aren't just interested in yoga as exercise. I'd really suggest finding a master teacher/s to practice with in real life, there's nothing like it. You'll know it when you find it.
I also read pretty obsessively when I started my yoga practice, some of which I'll leave below [6][7][8][9][10][11]. If you start practicing you'll find the sutras and other texts that speak to you as well, just put in the work and stay curious and open! Happy to answer any questions.
[1] https://www.dhammatalks.org/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Mind,_Beginner%27s_Mind
[3] https://plumvillage.shop/products/books/zen/the-other-shore-...
[4] https://joy.tergar.org/
[5] https://www.instagram.com/wearejared/
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots_of_Yoga
[7] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/784289
[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_on_Yoga
[9] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/35455963
[10] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/13542603
[11] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/295000.Cutting_Through_S...
amazingly valuable comment, thanks!
Thank you very much for this.
The best book bar none that I've ever found on pranayama is Pranayama by Gregor Maehle
I think the ancient yoga wizards of yore called that "Pranayama".
Is circular breath work just hyper ventilating?
But hyperventilating sounds scientific and reductive circles are mystical and sell well! And we gotta separate our ancient shamanic yogi breathing school from those damn box breathing gurus!
Yep. Feels good man.
Same as all the psychs.
And altered perspective can make you wiser.
Same as all the psychs.
And altered perspective can make you wiser.
It isn’t new, even for the academic community, that modulating CO2 levels via breathing alters consciousness.
Some of these sound more like advertisements.
Some of these sound more like advertisements.
if this topic interests you, check out this interview with Dr. Jack Feldman: https://hubermanlab.com/dr-jack-feldman-breathing-for-mental... -- i found the section about the effects of periodic hypoxia without retaining CO2 quite fascinating.
Ross and Carrie covered this on their podcast back in 2017, they had out of body experiences I believe. Link: https://ohnopodcast.com/investigations/2017/10/21/ross-and-c...
Breathwork is a really uncomfortable experience. I lay on a floor mat hyperventilating for an hour with a group of people only to feel a little expanded. Breathwork was developed as an alternative to psychedelics becasue those were illegal, and now that psilocybin is readily available in California there's no need for it. Thumbs down.
There are a lot of breathing methods out there, like this, and Wim Hof. Is there any side by side comparisons.
Side by Side Down to exact method. So many breaths, long, short, lengths, times.
I'd really like to know if it all boils down to just O2/CO2 balance, and each method just ends up with a different ratio.
Side by Side Down to exact method. So many breaths, long, short, lengths, times.
I'd really like to know if it all boils down to just O2/CO2 balance, and each method just ends up with a different ratio.
FYI: Not all breath-work is hyperventilating.
The study that has been mentioned talks about Holotropic Breathwork and Consciously-Connected breathwork are. I have worked with CCB.
My buddy goes into schizophrenia episodes every time he goes for a long run. Any ideas?
Your buddy ought to see a healthcare professional, I'm just some guy on the internet.
That said: here's a description of prodromal schizophrenia. Your description reads like category #2 to me.
"Prodrome phase can also be categorized in three different ways:
That said: here's a description of prodromal schizophrenia. Your description reads like category #2 to me.
"Prodrome phase can also be categorized in three different ways:
Category 1 means the patient should have at least one of the following symptoms: False beliefs that random events in the world directly relate to them, odd beliefs, or magical thinking; visual disturbance; odd thinking and speech; paranoid ideation; and odd behavior or appearance.
Category 2 includes patients who have experienced psychotic symptoms that come and go, which have spontaneously resolved within a week.
Category 3 includes a combination of genetic risk (i.e., being the first-degree relative of an individual with a diagnosis of schizophrenia) with substantial changes in personal daily functioning in the previous year. "
Interesting. It is common for marathon runners to experience cognitive impairment, delusions, and hallucinations. Does this occur late in the run? Is heat, altitude, or lack of fueling a factor?
Acute toxicity due to distribution of accumulated toxin (of some kind) by the violent action of running.
Probably this House M.D. -tier answer.
It can't be House M.D. because the diagnostic isn't lupus.
Also, participated in the group differential, instead of waiting until the end of the thread to sullenly come in and tell the patient that, by the way, I figured it out, you're being fucked over by a toxin.
Seemingly more the Dr. Foreman type.
Seemingly more the Dr. Foreman type.
I've done breathwork sessions before.
It felt strange, yes you can midly hallucinate and feel "otherworldly" but I always left thinking "ok, I just hyperventilated for 20 minutes ... this is exatly how I'd expect to feel".
And now we have a scientific study that proves it.
It seemed pretty obvious to me.
It felt strange, yes you can midly hallucinate and feel "otherworldly" but I always left thinking "ok, I just hyperventilated for 20 minutes ... this is exatly how I'd expect to feel".
And now we have a scientific study that proves it.
It seemed pretty obvious to me.
That's a very technologist know it all answer.
As if we fully understand, brain, conciousness, biology, body & spiritual experiences fully. There is so much to learn.
The questions for instance arises how does this connect to emotional & spiritual experiences that derive from those practices.
It's the same with psychedelics, they are chemically induced but often lead to meaningful experiences due a shift in the way we experience reality & conciousness.
Is it a peak into a wider experience of the world that makes us realize the world as we experience it, might not be as real as we think it is? Who knows, so many interesting questions & options.
As if we fully understand, brain, conciousness, biology, body & spiritual experiences fully. There is so much to learn.
The questions for instance arises how does this connect to emotional & spiritual experiences that derive from those practices.
It's the same with psychedelics, they are chemically induced but often lead to meaningful experiences due a shift in the way we experience reality & conciousness.
Is it a peak into a wider experience of the world that makes us realize the world as we experience it, might not be as real as we think it is? Who knows, so many interesting questions & options.
The funny thing is I spend my free time learning as much as I can about consciousness, alterered states of consciousness, the nature of reality, spirtual experiences, all that stuff.
That's how I ended up in a breathwork session.
But I still live in the universe, and the universe follows rules.
In this case, my body's CO2/Oxygen imbalance was out of whack, and I probably should have started breathing into a paper bag.
Consciousness is cool and all, but doing solid breathwork for over 20 minutes will upset the balance of molecules impotrant to a functioning consciousness. So while you may feel yourself soaring toward another dimension, it's your brain screaming for oxygen.
My 2 cents.
That's how I ended up in a breathwork session.
But I still live in the universe, and the universe follows rules.
In this case, my body's CO2/Oxygen imbalance was out of whack, and I probably should have started breathing into a paper bag.
Consciousness is cool and all, but doing solid breathwork for over 20 minutes will upset the balance of molecules impotrant to a functioning consciousness. So while you may feel yourself soaring toward another dimension, it's your brain screaming for oxygen.
My 2 cents.
Kant already explained this in the mind of all “technologist know it all” though
Combination of excess oxygen and rhythmic/yogic type trance?
This is opening callback to birth trauma.
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What about LSD
One should avoid this. It damages the brain. Better is just pure meditation where you can reach bliss states pretty fast once you can get access concentration.
citation needed
Just the word "breathwork" is obnoxious to me. I suppose it's interesting that if you hyperventilate enough you can reduce oxygen in your brain to the point where you hallucinate. And that is probably safer than taking psychedelics.
But the idea that you would do that routinely seems obviously stupid to me. I think if you keep doing it for a number of years then you could damage your brain. My understanding is that your brain needs oxygen.
But the idea that you would do that routinely seems obviously stupid to me. I think if you keep doing it for a number of years then you could damage your brain. My understanding is that your brain needs oxygen.
Got that one backwards:
> Hyperventilation is irregular breathing that occurs when the rate or tidal volume of breathing eliminates more carbon dioxide than the body can produce.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation
> Hyperventilation is irregular breathing that occurs when the rate or tidal volume of breathing eliminates more carbon dioxide than the body can produce.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation
They were correct. Hemoglobin needs CO2 to release oxygen. If you are low on CO2 your tissues become oxygen deprived.
Removing carbon dioxide via your lungs doesn't mean your brain gets more oxygen. The "altered states of consciousness" are symptoms of oxygen deprivation which can be induced in other ways, but maybe hyperventilation is a particularly fun way to do it.
I take it you haven't put a lot of effort into examining the practice? Pranayama is a pretty comprehensive system, and it has survived to this day for good reasons.
„It’sa comprehensive system that survived for hundreds of years“ is true for a lot of woo woo, eg astrology.
True, that by itself is but an indicator.
But that line of reasoning unfortunately leads absolutely nowhere worth going, a lot of supposed woo woo turns out to be something else on closer examination.
Living life by popular opinion is not a very successful strategy if you ask me.
But that line of reasoning unfortunately leads absolutely nowhere worth going, a lot of supposed woo woo turns out to be something else on closer examination.
Living life by popular opinion is not a very successful strategy if you ask me.
It seems obvious to me that the things you find obviously stupid, obviously aren't.
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25 minutes of rapid deepish breathing while listening to music. I was doing it as part of a group session and funnily it was conducted via zoom.
After the first 10, it becomes easy to keep the breathing pace. Moderately deep hallucinations, sweating a _lot_ on the bed. The weirdest part was that my face wanted to screw up in contortions. I felt my lips tight and couldn’t control my facial muscles until they hurt. I lost track of time and the session felt like it ended quickly.
Afterwards there was a positivity mindset like a mild mushroom afterglow. I would probably do it again.