Tesla sales plummet in the UK, France, and Germany(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
Tesla sales plummet in the UK, France, and Germany
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2025/02/tesla-sales-plummet-in-the-uk-france-and-germany/
228 comments
> I worry Elon's going a bit bonkers with drugs or whatever.
This is most of the reason I don't have a Tesla. The entire company will fold if Musk takes a bit too much ketamine and has a Roseanne Barr moment.
At that point I won't be able to get parts as the vehicles were built from the ground up to be hostile to third party repairs.
I don't want to be left holding the bag because Elon wanted to smoke a bag.
This is most of the reason I don't have a Tesla. The entire company will fold if Musk takes a bit too much ketamine and has a Roseanne Barr moment.
At that point I won't be able to get parts as the vehicles were built from the ground up to be hostile to third party repairs.
I don't want to be left holding the bag because Elon wanted to smoke a bag.
I own several Teslas, and based on first hand service experience, your concerns are warranted. Stay out of the ecosystem, lots of other good EVs to pick from (Hyundai Ioniq 6, for example). If nothing goes wrong during your ownership, you're fine. If anything goes wrong and you need service or support, it is a terrible experience.
Maybe this changes if Tesla fires Musk and puts someone competent and accountable at the helm (bring JB Straubel back as CEO, imho). I wouldn’t buy another Tesla until then.
Maybe this changes if Tesla fires Musk and puts someone competent and accountable at the helm (bring JB Straubel back as CEO, imho). I wouldn’t buy another Tesla until then.
> Stay out of the [Tesla] ecosystem, lots of other good EVs to pick from (Hyundai Ioniq 6, for example)
I'd also step back and ask if a PHEV would be sufficient. I don't think that there is any time in the last 3 years that I've driven more in one day than the EV mode range of a Prius Prime or RAV4 Prime which means it would essentially be an EV for me, and they have great reliability reputations.
Maybe I'll drive more longer trips when I retire (hopefully within the next year or so) and then would have to use the ICE engine. A Prius Prime gets over 50 mpg when using the ICE so although the energy cost for such a trip would be higher than for a pure EV it would't be a lot higher (100 miles in ICE mode would be about $5 more than 100 miles in an EV at my typical gas and electricity costs).
I'd also step back and ask if a PHEV would be sufficient. I don't think that there is any time in the last 3 years that I've driven more in one day than the EV mode range of a Prius Prime or RAV4 Prime which means it would essentially be an EV for me, and they have great reliability reputations.
Maybe I'll drive more longer trips when I retire (hopefully within the next year or so) and then would have to use the ICE engine. A Prius Prime gets over 50 mpg when using the ICE so although the energy cost for such a trip would be higher than for a pure EV it would't be a lot higher (100 miles in ICE mode would be about $5 more than 100 miles in an EV at my typical gas and electricity costs).
the problem with a non-tesla is charging… and it is a BIG problem. I own both Tesla and a non-tesla EV which I literally never take anywhere if I need to charge it … the first time you wait 7 hours to charge the car you get it :!
At least in the US, almost every automaker has contracted with Tesla for access to the Supercharger network. I am aware this is still a chokepoint that Musk could exercise control over while having a controlling interest in Tesla.
I bought my Tesla in 2014 and have 100k miles of free super charging behind. total number of non-Tesla’s I have seen in 11 years charging - exactly two
Which would make sense, considering how recent the network access agreements were.
not sure what agreements and with which companies, I have audi etron and am not able to charge at tesla charging stations
The subset of Tesla Superchargers with a MagicDock are usable by any CCS EV. You can find them on the Tesla charger map by filtering by "Open to other EVs"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT2SlIikNRo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT2SlIikNRo
Musk takes a bit too much ketamine and has a Roseanne Barr moment
Rosanne Barr, for her flaws, has never done anything as bad as Elon Musk has done in the past two weeks. He already had his Rosanne moment and then some with the Nazi salute, and soared past her into uncharted territory since then. He has lost his mind.
Rosanne Barr, for her flaws, has never done anything as bad as Elon Musk has done in the past two weeks. He already had his Rosanne moment and then some with the Nazi salute, and soared past her into uncharted territory since then. He has lost his mind.
Looking at all those tech people going nuts I really wonder if it might be finasteride or minoxidil having side effects we don't know yet.
Sure, people got the brain eating bug in the past, too, but it seems nowadays it is much more common.
Sure, people got the brain eating bug in the past, too, but it seems nowadays it is much more common.
For Musk, it's reportedly pretty well-known drugs: Ketamine, LSD, magic mushrooms.
Spiegel (~German equivalent of Time magazine) article about it https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/elon-musk-soll...
Spiegel (~German equivalent of Time magazine) article about it https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/elon-musk-soll...
Just an anecdote but i'll put it here:
A friend of mine insisted that her ex was slowly driven somewhat mad by finasteride, not in the typical crazy ex way, but obsessive somewhat delusional thoughts and moods, like he was getting stuck in a loop over some idea.
She later dated another guy who was taking it for a very long time, and said he had the same type of delusional quirks.
She later dated another guy who was taking it for a very long time, and said he had the same type of delusional quirks.
On that note, I've always wondered whether a lot of this is because of his Apartheid-era South African upbringing.
Unlike a lot of White South Africans he's English, and they were viewed as outsiders by a number of Afrikaners. Same with with David Sacks being Jewish South African and Peter Thiel being the kid of German expats in ZA.
On the other hand, Roelof Botha tends to remain outside the political limelight despite being from Afrikaner political royalty (his granddad was the Foreign Minister towards the end of Apartheid).
Maybe Musk, Sacks', and Thiel's anger and political weirdness is because they felt like the perpetual outsider no matter where they were.
Musk, Sacks, Thiel, and Botha all must have been 2nd or 3rd degree connects well before the PayPal mafia even started because their parents were all at the top of the social and economic strata among White South Africans (same handful of private schools, country clubs, etc)
Unlike a lot of White South Africans he's English, and they were viewed as outsiders by a number of Afrikaners. Same with with David Sacks being Jewish South African and Peter Thiel being the kid of German expats in ZA.
On the other hand, Roelof Botha tends to remain outside the political limelight despite being from Afrikaner political royalty (his granddad was the Foreign Minister towards the end of Apartheid).
Maybe Musk, Sacks', and Thiel's anger and political weirdness is because they felt like the perpetual outsider no matter where they were.
Musk, Sacks, Thiel, and Botha all must have been 2nd or 3rd degree connects well before the PayPal mafia even started because their parents were all at the top of the social and economic strata among White South Africans (same handful of private schools, country clubs, etc)
There is a missing link that shows the post-Apartheid behaviour - Paul Calder Le Roux.
https://coinmarketcap.com/academy/article/satoshi-files-paul...
It is all their when you include him: the unstable personal identity. The contempt for average South African (British or Afrikaaner) while being a minority white. The Sovereign Individualism. The use of the Internet to pioneer new firlds of commerce (telemedicine). The contempt for women. The attempts breed Ubermenschen. And of course, the utter contempt for Rule of Law.
We can also explain much of their behaviour when we look at his life story.
https://coinmarketcap.com/academy/article/satoshi-files-paul...
It is all their when you include him: the unstable personal identity. The contempt for average South African (British or Afrikaaner) while being a minority white. The Sovereign Individualism. The use of the Internet to pioneer new firlds of commerce (telemedicine). The contempt for women. The attempts breed Ubermenschen. And of course, the utter contempt for Rule of Law.
We can also explain much of their behaviour when we look at his life story.
The Guardian just did a story along these lines: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/26/elon-musk...
I know Must talks about being bullied at school. I'm sure that contributes.
The story about being bullied, the way Musk tell is, is very incomplete.
Contributes to what? Tesla's failing sales?
contributes to the fact that richest man in the world is 100% the most miserable man in the world
> contributes to the fact that richest man in the world is 100% the most miserable man in the world
You know, he should be able to afford a lot of therapy by very skilled and talented therapists.
You know, he should be able to afford a lot of therapy by very skilled and talented therapists.
That would require him to admit he has a problem that need to be worked on, i doubt he will ever do that..
He likely do the exact opposite, pay people to tell him everyone else but him is the problem..
He likely do the exact opposite, pay people to tell him everyone else but him is the problem..
To the odd behavior such as in "Musk, Sacks', and Thiel's anger and political weirdness."
An inferiority complex, for one.
Astute observation.
Arguably better UI to the same thing: https://xCANCEL.com/elonmusk/status/1879785727468163505
Which I've found to be hilarious btw. :-)
Which I've found to be hilarious btw. :-)
Wow, it makes a lot of sense because the UI is not focused on algorithmic mind tricks, ragegagement and advertising.
Wow, that thread is something else.
So genuine question: is Musk actually addicted to drugs? Or a frequent user? I keep seeing that around, but I don't know if it's more a joke/meme or serious?
My theory is that after he bought Twitter he no longer had to abide by the rules (since he owns the thing), and combined with his wealth basically no one ever says "no Elon, you can't do that" or "you idiot, that's fucking mental". Also he has tons of people cheering him on (also in that thread). This is not helping keeping him grounded.
So genuine question: is Musk actually addicted to drugs? Or a frequent user? I keep seeing that around, but I don't know if it's more a joke/meme or serious?
My theory is that after he bought Twitter he no longer had to abide by the rules (since he owns the thing), and combined with his wealth basically no one ever says "no Elon, you can't do that" or "you idiot, that's fucking mental". Also he has tons of people cheering him on (also in that thread). This is not helping keeping him grounded.
He has a prescription for Ketamine and is probably an occasional other stuff. Of course you don't quite know. The best source is probably the wsj article https://archive.ph/zcAdE . Says "LSD, cocaine, ecstasy and psychedelic mushrooms, often at private parties".
My sisters first boyfriend went permanently nuts from mostly that list. I think it was a toxic mushroom that flipped him.
My sisters first boyfriend went permanently nuts from mostly that list. I think it was a toxic mushroom that flipped him.
Musk had lost it long before Twitter, his K problems were obvious at Tesla, which is one of the reasons I never purchased one.
If you didn't see all the instability when he was calling folks paedos because they were saving lives, while he was snorting whatever he could find, then I'm not sure what else to say. It was never going to end well, yet techbros pumped up his bad ideas and feeding the ego.
How well is the Boring Company coming along?
If you didn't see all the instability when he was calling folks paedos because they were saving lives, while he was snorting whatever he could find, then I'm not sure what else to say. It was never going to end well, yet techbros pumped up his bad ideas and feeding the ego.
How well is the Boring Company coming along?
Boring Company so so and the cars and rockets did quite well. He may have mucked up the cars just recently though.
Muskrat is losing it. Full on manic persecution complex.
Again not Tony Stark but Justin Hammer.
Again not Tony Stark but Justin Hammer.
Teslas are good cars, but I can understand not wanting to drive around in anything associated with the current CEO.
I think about data privacy too. Every automaker sells identifiable location data. I'd normally think of Tesla as being contrarian and possibly better on privacy, but they have a history of passing around photos/videos/audio from inside the cars(!).
I really wish that Apple hadn't killed their car effort. Even without self-driving, it could've been better in many other areas.
I think about data privacy too. Every automaker sells identifiable location data. I'd normally think of Tesla as being contrarian and possibly better on privacy, but they have a history of passing around photos/videos/audio from inside the cars(!).
I really wish that Apple hadn't killed their car effort. Even without self-driving, it could've been better in many other areas.
> Teslas are good cars, but I can understand not wanting to drive around in anything associated with the current CEO.
It has, unfortunately, nothing to do with it. The prices have risen and people do not have money to spend on cars.
It has, unfortunately, nothing to do with it. The prices have risen and people do not have money to spend on cars.
> people do not have money to spend on car
Definitely depends on what segment you're looking at, but US car sales seem to be right back at pre-pandemic levels: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TOTALSA
Definitely depends on what segment you're looking at, but US car sales seem to be right back at pre-pandemic levels: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TOTALSA
It's such a shame. My wife has an early Model 3 from 2019 that's now over 100,000 miles. It's been a great car, no major issues and no maintenance for 6 years. 100,000 miles with nothing but new tires and windshield washer fluid is amazing to me. We're not in a position to unload our Tesla for something else right now, but without major changes at the head of the company it will likely be the last Tesla we own.
Same boat. Model Y, 2022. Will keep it as long as it lives, but wouldn't be caught dead buying another.
I have a ‘21 Y and a ‘24 CT but we’re done buying Teslas for at least another few years. As long as I can talk my wife out of upgrading the Y to an X.
Chinese have far better and cheaper EV cars. Getting spare parts for Tesla in Europe is a nightmare!
Most European EV sales that aren't Tesla are European brands like Volkswagen Group (VW, Audi, Skoda), BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Stellantis (Pueguot, Fiat, Opel), Renault-Nissan (Renault, Dacia, Nissan), or Korea's Hyundai.
The only Chinese challenger brand that has some traction is Geely via Volvo.
You can see this in EU EV industry data as well from JATO (the EU's auto industry trade group) - https://www.jato.com/resources/media-and-press-releases/euro...
The only Chinese challenger brand that has some traction is Geely via Volvo.
You can see this in EU EV industry data as well from JATO (the EU's auto industry trade group) - https://www.jato.com/resources/media-and-press-releases/euro...
> The only Chinese challenger brand that has some traction is Geely via Volvo.
Probably depends on the country? I see a ton of BYDs on the road here (Austria).
Probably depends on the country? I see a ton of BYDs on the road here (Austria).
I'm not sure about Austria, but these are the cross-EU stats [0].
And in the largest EU markets (Germany, France, Italy, Spain), it's overwhelmingly local players.
Chinese players have started gaining some traction, but that's overwhelmingly Geely via Volvo. And Geely began their expansion abroad largely due to domestic competition within China, with most consumers preferring either a BYD or a Tesla.
[0] - https://www.jato.com/resources/media-and-press-releases/euro...
And in the largest EU markets (Germany, France, Italy, Spain), it's overwhelmingly local players.
Chinese players have started gaining some traction, but that's overwhelmingly Geely via Volvo. And Geely began their expansion abroad largely due to domestic competition within China, with most consumers preferring either a BYD or a Tesla.
[0] - https://www.jato.com/resources/media-and-press-releases/euro...
That link talks about H1 2024 and says this about BYD:
> BYD registered 17,000 electric cars - 14,000 more compared to H1 2023. In fact, BYD’s rapid growth allowed it to outsell Nissan, Smart, Toyota, Polestar, Citroen, Dacia, Ford, Mini, Porsche, and Mazda. As a result, BYD is now Europe’s 16th best-selling BEV brand - the second Chinese brand following MG, which held 8th place in the BEV ranking.
Would be interesting to know how H2 did.
> BYD registered 17,000 electric cars - 14,000 more compared to H1 2023. In fact, BYD’s rapid growth allowed it to outsell Nissan, Smart, Toyota, Polestar, Citroen, Dacia, Ford, Mini, Porsche, and Mazda. As a result, BYD is now Europe’s 16th best-selling BEV brand - the second Chinese brand following MG, which held 8th place in the BEV ranking.
Would be interesting to know how H2 did.
> Would be interesting to know how H2 did
We'll see in a couple months, but probably not well, because EU EV sales shrank overall in 2024 [0]
> That link talks about H1 2024 and says this about BYD:
Yea, but primarily this - "BYD is now Europe’s 16th best-selling BEV brand".
It's total sales are still dwarfed by existing giants in the EU market, as the H1 24 sales data has shown. The brands it outsold are those that didn't really target EU BEV sales (eg. Ford, Renault) or are conservative in their EV approach (eg. Nissan, Toyota)
The only Chinese firm that has kind of cracked the European market is Geely, and that's because they were able to leverage Volvo to sell a rebadged Geely as the XC30.
[0] - https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-new...
We'll see in a couple months, but probably not well, because EU EV sales shrank overall in 2024 [0]
> That link talks about H1 2024 and says this about BYD:
Yea, but primarily this - "BYD is now Europe’s 16th best-selling BEV brand".
It's total sales are still dwarfed by existing giants in the EU market, as the H1 24 sales data has shown. The brands it outsold are those that didn't really target EU BEV sales (eg. Ford, Renault) or are conservative in their EV approach (eg. Nissan, Toyota)
The only Chinese firm that has kind of cracked the European market is Geely, and that's because they were able to leverage Volvo to sell a rebadged Geely as the XC30.
[0] - https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-new...
yeah, seems „a ton“ is relative:
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/993281/umfrag...
might be because other brand‘s cars aren’t always recognizable as EVs…
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/993281/umfrag...
might be because other brand‘s cars aren’t always recognizable as EVs…
Well the Seal is the third most sold electric car model in Austria. Does not surprise me I see it.
There are significant numbers of MG cars (SAIC Motor) on the roads in the UK. I see more of them than Polestars (Geely/Volvo).
Even then, the overwhelming majority of sales are either Tesla, VW Group (Audi, Skoda, VW), BMW, or Hyundai [0].
European automotive groups like VW will own multiple badges/brands so it won't be as prominent but they continue to retain dominance
[0] - https://www.electrifying.com/blog/article/official-figures-s...
European automotive groups like VW will own multiple badges/brands so it won't be as prominent but they continue to retain dominance
[0] - https://www.electrifying.com/blog/article/official-figures-s...
BYD is currently hampered by 45% EU tariffs. BYD vehicles should be much more cost competitive once they have a factory in the EU.
BYD is planning on a second factory after the first in Hungary is operational (2H 2025, ~1-2 years ahead of schedule).
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/new-by...
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/byd-wi...
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinas...
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/new-by...
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/byd-wi...
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinas...
Source: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chines...
It's 27% for BYD and it was introduced end of October 2024, I guess it had no big effect on sales.
It's 27% for BYD and it was introduced end of October 2024, I guess it had no big effect on sales.
There’s BYD garages popping up all over the place though. Not seen many on the road yet…
I see tons of electric bikes from China.
Electric Bikes maybe. But Electric Bikes ain't competing for the same market share as a car.
End of the day, the biggest EV sellers in Europe remain either Tesla or European conglomerates.
And this is the same story for just about every large economy. No country wants an outsider player selling products that disadvantage local players.
End of the day, the biggest EV sellers in Europe remain either Tesla or European conglomerates.
And this is the same story for just about every large economy. No country wants an outsider player selling products that disadvantage local players.
> Most European EV sales that aren't Tesla are European brands like
Bikes are still "vehicles". Problem is that stuff like Tesla are luxuries, we simply can not afford that! Bikes are an alternative on the same market.
An alternative that is heavily advertised by our governments! If there is a significant difference between car and bike, you should tell our government!
Not everyone has resources to treat their car as an IPhone!
Bikes are still "vehicles". Problem is that stuff like Tesla are luxuries, we simply can not afford that! Bikes are an alternative on the same market.
An alternative that is heavily advertised by our governments! If there is a significant difference between car and bike, you should tell our government!
Not everyone has resources to treat their car as an IPhone!
Absolutely, yet at the end of the day Electric Bikes are not treated as EVs in colloquial conversation and are not a direct substitute for a Car in most cases. And I'm sure yk this too.
It is direct substitute! You can absolutely carry family of 5 and furniture on bike! See Denmark and India!
> You can absolutely carry family of 5 and furniture on bike! See Denmark and India!
I can't speak to Denmark, but in India people resort to buying electric bikes because of income. The moment they earn enough to pay for a car loan, they go for it, as people in my ancestral town have done.
That said, even in India, most 2 wheeler/electric bike sales are largely being driven by Ola - India's Uber/Tesla/AWS - because they are subsidizing Ola drivers to buy Ola Electric bikes. And that is what is driving most E-Bike sales in India.
That, even in India the sale of electric bikes has fallen significantly [0]
At the end of the day, in a market like India, if you can afford a car, you buy a car. And if you're buying a car in a market like India, you'd tend to prefer an SUV due to the negative stigma against sedans ("sedans are for p*ssies" mindset is the norm, and drives the popularity of vehicles is HC as the Mahindra Thar) [1][2]
The same mentality exists in the Indian 2-Wheeler/Bike community, with the KTM being treated as the gold standard.
The same "macho" style mentality that makes Pickup trucks popular in North America and Thailand is the same one that exists in India for SUVs (ICE or Electric) or Two Wheelers.
IMO, EVs and especially EV Sedans have done well in the Chinese market because the status symbol ICE car in China has historically been the Audi A6/A8, but in India the equivalent ICE car status symbol wise has been the Jaguar Land Rover [3]
[0] - https://www.cnbctv18.com/auto/electric-two-wheeler-sales-dro...
[1] - https://motoroctane.com/news/267798-why-is-everyone-buying-s...
[2] - https://www.hindustantimes.com/business/why-the-mahindra-tha...
[3] - https://www.cartoq.com/indian-politicians-and-their-land-rov...
I can't speak to Denmark, but in India people resort to buying electric bikes because of income. The moment they earn enough to pay for a car loan, they go for it, as people in my ancestral town have done.
That said, even in India, most 2 wheeler/electric bike sales are largely being driven by Ola - India's Uber/Tesla/AWS - because they are subsidizing Ola drivers to buy Ola Electric bikes. And that is what is driving most E-Bike sales in India.
That, even in India the sale of electric bikes has fallen significantly [0]
At the end of the day, in a market like India, if you can afford a car, you buy a car. And if you're buying a car in a market like India, you'd tend to prefer an SUV due to the negative stigma against sedans ("sedans are for p*ssies" mindset is the norm, and drives the popularity of vehicles is HC as the Mahindra Thar) [1][2]
The same mentality exists in the Indian 2-Wheeler/Bike community, with the KTM being treated as the gold standard.
The same "macho" style mentality that makes Pickup trucks popular in North America and Thailand is the same one that exists in India for SUVs (ICE or Electric) or Two Wheelers.
IMO, EVs and especially EV Sedans have done well in the Chinese market because the status symbol ICE car in China has historically been the Audi A6/A8, but in India the equivalent ICE car status symbol wise has been the Jaguar Land Rover [3]
[0] - https://www.cnbctv18.com/auto/electric-two-wheeler-sales-dro...
[1] - https://motoroctane.com/news/267798-why-is-everyone-buying-s...
[2] - https://www.hindustantimes.com/business/why-the-mahindra-tha...
[3] - https://www.cartoq.com/indian-politicians-and-their-land-rov...
BYD
Getting service for a Tesla in the US can be pretty unpleasant. They’ve gone from truly excellent service to not wanting to interact with their owners and managing parts availability quite poorly.
Absolutely terrible. I had to wait 2 months to get my Model S in for routine service. The day after, the battery pack heater failed and the vehicle would no longer fast DC charge. I was told it would be another 2 months until the vehicle could be looked at. I bought the part myself (1038901-00-K) and replaced it for ~$200 (requiring me to learn and perform the HV pack isolation procedure). Do not recommend.
Don't worry, everybody else is following suit and not selling parts for new cars either. My friend just bought a new GM vehicle, and it sat in the bodyshop for 9 months after someone hit the bumper at 5mph.
There's also the recent story about a guy running a limo business who couldn't get a bumper for his Cadillac, and had to keep making commercial insurance payments, and of course the car payment, while the car sat and could not be used. https://www.carscoops.com/2025/01/gm-keeps-86k-cadillac-lyri...
There's also the recent story about a guy running a limo business who couldn't get a bumper for his Cadillac, and had to keep making commercial insurance payments, and of course the car payment, while the car sat and could not be used. https://www.carscoops.com/2025/01/gm-keeps-86k-cadillac-lyri...
With a legacy car maker, the service centers are independent (sort of). They have phone numbers, they answer the phone, and they want your business. If your car is drivable but needs a part, you can ask them to order it, and they will do so. Tesla service centers do not answer the phone, do not answer email, and generally could not care less about you unless you have an appointment made on the app. And they do not reliably answer messages sent via app. And, while their people might notice that they don’t have a part a day or two before your appointment and tell you this (by in-app message) and advise you not to bother bringing your car in, the automated workflow part of their app does not understand this, and there is a chance that you will get stuck and your car will never get fixed.
You can bypass this process to some extent by walking into the service center without an appointment, hopefully getting a friendly person, and having them ask you to make a service appointment while you stand there (using the app on your phone) so they can then log in, find your service appointment, and attempt to get the system to let them order parts while you stand there (a process that may or may not require a tiny amount of actual technician time because, while Tesla has all kinds of telemetry, this telemetry does not integrate at all with the system by which service centers decide what parts are needed).
You can bypass this process to some extent by walking into the service center without an appointment, hopefully getting a friendly person, and having them ask you to make a service appointment while you stand there (using the app on your phone) so they can then log in, find your service appointment, and attempt to get the system to let them order parts while you stand there (a process that may or may not require a tiny amount of actual technician time because, while Tesla has all kinds of telemetry, this telemetry does not integrate at all with the system by which service centers decide what parts are needed).
Other than BYD, I would be very worried about getting spare parts for Chinese cars as well. Most of those car companies are in a very bad financial situation, in a country where the rest of the country is saddled with a crazy amount of shadow debt as well.
Europe has instituted tariffs for Chinese vehicles up to 35%. Given the low cost of Chinese vehicles, this may not be a big barrier (like in the US where it's 100% tariff).
Other than that, I completely agree - and hope that Europe manufacturing can catch up to China on EVs.
Other than that, I completely agree - and hope that Europe manufacturing can catch up to China on EVs.
Completely uninformed statement. Its impressive what they achieved in such a short time but neither the xiaomi nor the BYD Seal is anywhere close to what it is mimicking.
Most people don't need or want FSD. They want an actual steering wheel and an actual stalk in order to activate turn signals. They want reliable well-made electric vehicles that don't take long to repair.
Musk has spent many billions of dollars building something his target market doesn't require. Tesla does not currently have product-market fit.
Musk should resign his board and CEO positions and stop interfering with internal decision-making. And refrain from rumored ketamine use.
Musk has spent many billions of dollars building something his target market doesn't require. Tesla does not currently have product-market fit.
Musk should resign his board and CEO positions and stop interfering with internal decision-making. And refrain from rumored ketamine use.
> They want a steering wheel and stalk in order to activate turn signals.
They just brought that back in the Juniper refresh.
They just brought that back in the Juniper refresh.
>Tesla does not currently have product-market fit.
Yet, it sells the best selling car on Earth.
Yet, it sells the best selling car on Earth.
That’s largely as a result of its branding strategy (single brand, only two mass-market models). There are 19 production vehicles based on VW’s MEB platform, say, most of them very similar. This is fairly typical; all of the big car manufacturers have at least a couple of brands, and many models, and some (notably VW, Stellantis, GM) have _dozens_ of brands, largely with shared platforms.
> Yet, it sells the best selling car on Earth.
A lot of that is selling just 2 mass-market models. And it only barely beats out the Toyota Corolla, except that Toyota also sells the third highest volume model (the RAV-4) and the 8th (the Camry).
A lot of that is selling just 2 mass-market models. And it only barely beats out the Toyota Corolla, except that Toyota also sells the third highest volume model (the RAV-4) and the 8th (the Camry).
>It only barely beats out the Toyota Corolla
"Only" does a lot here.
The Corolla is the #1 product of a century-old conglomerate. Tesla started mass-producing cars less than 17 years ago.
"Only" does a lot here.
The Corolla is the #1 product of a century-old conglomerate. Tesla started mass-producing cars less than 17 years ago.
But when you add up sales for all models from each company, there are 12 companies that sell more cars each year. Market share is 11.07% Toyota, 6.41% VW, 4.87% Honda, 4.82% Ford, 4.56% Hyundai, 3.84% Nissan, 3.77% Suzuki, 3.53% Kia, 3.48% Chevrolet, 3.47% BYD, 2.67% Mercedes-Benz, then 2.77% for Audi and Tesla, and bringing up the rear of the top 15 is 1.85% for Renault
Yet, Tesla makes more profit than most. It's like saying Apple has no market-fit vs Android because it's far less popular… until you realize it's a strategic choice to sell fewer vehicles but at higher margins.
Tesla hasn't started going down market with cheaper cars. But they've said new, cheaper models will be released by June 2025. We'll see what happens for the cheaper and higher-volume segment of the auto market.
But for now, Tesla has the most popular model with the highest margins.
Tesla hasn't started going down market with cheaper cars. But they've said new, cheaper models will be released by June 2025. We'll see what happens for the cheaper and higher-volume segment of the auto market.
But for now, Tesla has the most popular model with the highest margins.
It just shows how uninformed you are! BYD Seal is 2000kg car, we do not want that! Europeans want EVs that are maybe 600kg to do shopping and drive around town. 80kms on single charge and 50kmph are quite acceptable parameters.
If I can remove car battery, put it on a cart, and take it to my apartment on 10th floor via elevator, even better! I need to charge it over night!
If I could spare $50k on new car, I would buy ICE before they are banned!
If I can remove car battery, put it on a cart, and take it to my apartment on 10th floor via elevator, even better! I need to charge it over night!
If I could spare $50k on new car, I would buy ICE before they are banned!
Who is we here? Europe is a big place with a lot of countries which are very different from other European countries. Here in Sweden that 600 kg 80 km/charge 50 kmph car would not do so well since it would run out of juice on the way back from the supermarket for a substantial part of the population, it would get stuck in the snow in winter and does not have enough power to keep the interior are a reasonable temperature when outside it is anything but reasonable. It might sell in Stockholm but then only to affluent citizens who'd use it next to their other two or three vehicles.
I'm all in on thinking modern cars are too fat but "maybe 600kg" is an absurd suggestion. That's less than a Smart Fortwo. There'll be a market for that but it's not what "Europeans want".
But most cars we had in the 80s were less than 1000kg, and that was fine.
Context differ from country to country, and from cities to countryside within countries, but in places where most of the population is concentrated in high-density cities, small cars or alternatives to cars are much, much more desirable than 2000+kg SUVs. Case in point, in France: more and more city centers just drastically reduce cars lanes and accessibility.
Context differ from country to country, and from cities to countryside within countries, but in places where most of the population is concentrated in high-density cities, small cars or alternatives to cars are much, much more desirable than 2000+kg SUVs. Case in point, in France: more and more city centers just drastically reduce cars lanes and accessibility.
Ah yes, buy cars from an actual brutal dictatorship.
Is that a sarcastic remark about the USA?
No, are doing whataboutism and ignoring how horrible China is?
Even if this were true, I'd be willing to pay more to avoid financially supporting the CCP.
There are a lot of people in Europe that prefer CCP over what the republican party has become.
That's what they think, at least.
When push comes to shove, it'll be less clear.
When push comes to shove, it'll be less clear.
China ATM seems to be a smaller threat to Europe than US.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was some level of EU-China rapprochement as a result.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was some level of EU-China rapprochement as a result.
I live in San Mateo County, CA and in my street 3 neighbors have sold their Teslas within the last 8 weeks and switched to other brands.
There does appear to be a social cost to driving a Tesla in blue-leaning areas these days. Nothing overt, but I've heard people who bought them without knowing who Musk is (and don't agree with him) now openly saying "never-again".
If the used Tesla market gets flooded, will there be consumer demand for those used Teslas? I suspect that most will be in suburban red-leaning areas in areas that aren't openly EV-technology hostile (something like the Dallas or Atlanta suburbs).
The problem for Tesla is that unlike the prestige effect of used luxury car sales driving new luxury car sales (i.e. BMW, Benz, etc), these cars are being disposed of because they are becoming less desirable. The target market for new Teslas seems to be shrinking among the primary populations who both want and can afford EVs.
If the used Tesla market gets flooded, will there be consumer demand for those used Teslas? I suspect that most will be in suburban red-leaning areas in areas that aren't openly EV-technology hostile (something like the Dallas or Atlanta suburbs).
The problem for Tesla is that unlike the prestige effect of used luxury car sales driving new luxury car sales (i.e. BMW, Benz, etc), these cars are being disposed of because they are becoming less desirable. The target market for new Teslas seems to be shrinking among the primary populations who both want and can afford EVs.
[deleted]
> I live in San Mateo County, CA
Jackson Hole, Wyoming. One sold (Model X), one scrapped (Cybertruck). Oddly, opposite ends of the political spectrum. Both because of Musk’s new brand.
Jackson Hole, Wyoming. One sold (Model X), one scrapped (Cybertruck). Oddly, opposite ends of the political spectrum. Both because of Musk’s new brand.
"Republicans buy sneakers, too."
I wonder how long it will take the Tesla board to fully internalise the meaning of that quote.
I wonder how long it will take the Tesla board to fully internalise the meaning of that quote.
https://www.pewresearch.org/?attachment_id=179415 (draw your attention to the center of the graphic, Republican vs Democrat, as it relates to who would consider purchasing an EV)
About 3 in 10 Americans would seriously consider buying an electric vehicle - https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/06/27/about-3-i... - June 27, 2024
About 3 in 10 Americans would seriously consider buying an electric vehicle - https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/06/27/about-3-i... - June 27, 2024
The graphic shows that 85% of the addressable market favour party A and 15% party B. My point is that once you strongly align your brand with either party, you alienate a decent chunk of your customers.
If you have to choose, then in this situation choosing A is much better than B, but why alienate any of your customers like this?
If you have to choose, then in this situation choosing A is much better than B, but why alienate any of your customers like this?
Because Musk cannot help himself emotionally. He cannot quell the desire for more; more power, more control, more status seeking.
https://insideevs.com/news/749741/tesla-ev-buyers-favorabili...
https://insideevs.com/news/749741/tesla-ev-buyers-favorabili...
Where do I buy one of these cheap Teslas people are selling for political reasons?
> Where do I buy one of these cheap Teslas people are selling for political reasons?
Wherever your locale buys and sells used cars. The price of used Teslas has been dropping at a ~24% annualised rate over the last 30 to 90 days [1].
[1] https://www.cargurus.com/research/price-trends/Tesla-m112
Wherever your locale buys and sells used cars. The price of used Teslas has been dropping at a ~24% annualised rate over the last 30 to 90 days [1].
[1] https://www.cargurus.com/research/price-trends/Tesla-m112
Pretty much anywhere you would buy any other used car. Model 3/y used prices are down 20% yoy (compared to ~4% all cars).
There have been cheap used Teslas for years. Just was searching Cragslist a few months ago, and found Model Ss for $15-20k.
I live in the south bay and my apartment complex parking is still just as full of Teslas. so take of that what you will.
I’ll be selling our Tesla as soon as other brands have NACS. Specifically Rivian is what I’m looking for and have a preorder on an R2
The 2025 model of the Hyundai Ioniq 5 has NACS and is my favorite alternative in terms of looks, features, and price. Rivian has been in a different price category so I have a hard time believing the $45k starting price.
Yup, We are waiting for the rivian to have NACS as well. I was considering the idea of buying a used Tesla and just ripping the emblems off and putting a wrap on it. I don't like car models and brands on cars anyways.
But yeah, probably will definitely get a rivian, especially the new R3!
I still don't know if the heat pump will be as good as Tesla's but it doesn't matter. I don't respect Elon anymore. I still do definitely admire some of his technical talents and ability to ship products. I don't think just cuz a person does a bad thing means they're a bad person.
But yeah, probably will definitely get a rivian, especially the new R3!
I still don't know if the heat pump will be as good as Tesla's but it doesn't matter. I don't respect Elon anymore. I still do definitely admire some of his technical talents and ability to ship products. I don't think just cuz a person does a bad thing means they're a bad person.
Rivian already supports NACS dongles.
Realistically, you’ll want CCS and NACS for the foreseeable future.
Realistically, you’ll want CCS and NACS for the foreseeable future.
I see no reason for this to get flagged. Not every heated comment section deserves a flag, and no one is insulting each other. If it’s done by the mods, I think we deserve an explanation.
Probably the baity title was part of it. We've replaced that with the more neutral URL slug now.
Edit: oh and yes, users flagged it. That's nearly always the case with submissions marked [flagged]. This is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html.
Edit: oh and yes, users flagged it. That's nearly always the case with submissions marked [flagged]. This is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html.
Fair enough, thanks for the reply
Most stories critical of Musk are flagged regardless of the topic. It's not done by dang - he regularly unflags them.
That's true. But uncritical ones are flagged just as much as critical ones (if not more), so I think we can guess at the common variable.
[flagged]
He most likely cares about Tesla as much as the upper stage of a Space X rocket cares about the first stage booster after separation. It served it's purpose and can now burn up or explode. Zero fucks given once he's in orbit.
I wouldn't buy a Tesla today if it alchemically transmuted atmospheric carbon dioxide into an ounce of gold that pooped out of the front console every 1000 miles. Most of Tesla's target market does not tolerate Nazism, which Elon Musk is clearly and obviously signaling.
That doesn't even touch on his enthusiastic role in an administration threatening EU members states, some of our historically closest allies in the past century, with military action. There are great Chinese EVs, even if Musk weren't behaving this way. Of course demand in the EU is cratering.
Teslas valuation is ridiculous, their reported earnings quality is lousy, and their sales comps are deteriorating.
edit: sorry, I'm blocked from further replies and will not be engaging further. The Nazi salute was more than enough, but his Afd speech and Gray/Abramson's comments about his subsequent Auschwitz visit added to the evidence.
That doesn't even touch on his enthusiastic role in an administration threatening EU members states, some of our historically closest allies in the past century, with military action. There are great Chinese EVs, even if Musk weren't behaving this way. Of course demand in the EU is cratering.
Teslas valuation is ridiculous, their reported earnings quality is lousy, and their sales comps are deteriorating.
edit: sorry, I'm blocked from further replies and will not be engaging further. The Nazi salute was more than enough, but his Afd speech and Gray/Abramson's comments about his subsequent Auschwitz visit added to the evidence.
Replacing a Tesla with a Chinese EV is like replacing a person who wants to commit genocide with a person who actually commits genocide.
Chinese EV's do not have any moral superiority over Tesla and I would not be caught driving either.
Chinese EV's do not have any moral superiority over Tesla and I would not be caught driving either.
[deleted]
If hippies no longer buy Tesla, then maybe all of the MAGA will, or maybe Trump will require the USPS or the federal government or any company wanting to do business with the federal government to buy Tesla.
Anything you can imagine is possible.
Anything you can imagine is possible.
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I think that even (most) conservatives don't want their car to be a political statement.
If cars were not statements of the owner's ego or personality or brand, everyone would be driving either an unwashed Toyota Corolla or (if 3+ kids) a minivan.
But they're not.
But they're not.
That’s ridiculous.
Can you name examples where he is signaling Nazism (except the Salut). Have you watched any long form podcasts of him?
Besides this? [0]
[0]https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/16/elon-musk...
[0]https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/nov/16/elon-musk...
I mean, you label ADL as a Nazi party. Then you label Musk as Nazi by association. But if you actually look at ADL they are not Nazis. Here's an interesting things I saw just today: https://x.com/derJamesJackson/status/1887425955494268997
So gays are supporting a Nazi party?
So gays are supporting a Nazi party?
I'm well aware that the Anti-Defamation League is not the Nazi party and does not hold far-right tendencies. I'm not getting your point.
Promoting far-right German populist party is a signal surely?
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/25/elon-musk...
Similarly, funding far-right fascists such as Tommy Robinson https://www.politico.eu/article/elon-musk-fund-uk-far-right-... in the UK another.
I know less about the AfD but anyone supporting Robinson is definitely in the fascist leaning camp.
Similarly, funding far-right fascists such as Tommy Robinson https://www.politico.eu/article/elon-musk-fund-uk-far-right-... in the UK another.
I know less about the AfD but anyone supporting Robinson is definitely in the fascist leaning camp.
"Elon Musk straight-arm gesture controversy" is... a lemma to describe that occurrence, for sure.
That is such a wonderful quote from you asking if you can name examples of him signalling Nazism, apart from the Nazi salute he gave three times to the entire crowd of the inauguration and on national tv.
Dude literally had to go tour death camps to do a PR rehab after endorsing antisemitic conspiracies.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-68055368
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-68055368
And the wife of an elderly holocaust survivor being honoured during that visit called him sociopathic as he seemed unmoved by the experience and more interested in a photo op.
Supporting Afd neo-Nazi party shouldn't count right. For clarity, leader of the AfD party has twice been fined by a German court for using banned Nazi slogan. Musk thinks, keep on giving these guys comfort and support.. no one is gonna notice.
Getting fined by the speech police isn't the gotcha you think it is
"When did he do Nazi things? Oh by the way, that time he did a Nazi salute on live TV doesn't count for some reason."
It was an open secret for a while, that new model Y is coming. So why buy an old one when few months in the future you can get current model and not the outdated one. Everyone is just waiting to buy new model Y. I took the risk, got old one year ago and now I am very happy, that the new one is rather facelift with couple percent better range and not a revolutionary upgrade. This would be pity. I am just wondering about price strategy, because new one is expensive at the beginning.
Yea that's not the main reason, Musk is toxic for the brand. A recent poll in Sweden saw 68% has a negative view of Musk today, up 20% in the past weeks alone.
And it's likely to get more negative as Musk retweets disinformation about the national tragedy this week: https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/sverige/elon-musk-sprider-l...
If that were the actual reason then why did the sales drop so much in the last month? Surely the new model Y has been coming for a while now, it is difficult to imagine that it would cause a >40% drop across the board from month to month.
Rather it seems very likely that Musk is extremely toxic to the brand at the moment. He is very closely aligned to a president who is actively threatening a trade war against the EU, after all. It would be weird if EU citizens just pretended that wasn't a thing.
Rather it seems very likely that Musk is extremely toxic to the brand at the moment. He is very closely aligned to a president who is actively threatening a trade war against the EU, after all. It would be weird if EU citizens just pretended that wasn't a thing.
I doubt it is the trade war. I think it is his attempts to interfere in European politics. Musk has done this in both the UK and Germany, and is signalling doing this in other places.
In the UK trying to help an extremist most people loathe (Tommy Robinson) is not going to make you popular. I am guessing that in Germany a lot of people loathe AfD so there is a similar, probably stronger, effect.
From a UK point of view, even if Trump imposes tariffs on our imports, that might be a problem, but it is not repulsive in the way backing an extremist is.
In the UK trying to help an extremist most people loathe (Tommy Robinson) is not going to make you popular. I am guessing that in Germany a lot of people loathe AfD so there is a similar, probably stronger, effect.
From a UK point of view, even if Trump imposes tariffs on our imports, that might be a problem, but it is not repulsive in the way backing an extremist is.
>If that were the actual reason then why did the sales drop so much in the last month?
Because why buy a Model Y in December at full price, when you can order the new version for the same price?
The Juniper is the last update of a 5 year old model. The reviews says it was well worth the wait.
Because why buy a Model Y in December at full price, when you can order the new version for the same price?
The Juniper is the last update of a 5 year old model. The reviews says it was well worth the wait.
> why buy a Model Y in December at full price, when you can order the new version for the same price?
This take is not supported by the data. Used Tesla prices are crashing across the board. Sales are crashing across the board. Polls show clear negative sentiment towards the brand.
The old lineup isn’t helping. And yes, there will be a blip when the Y comes out. Tesla builds good cars and plenty of people buy on price and quality. But there is a reason most cars come in black, grey and white—consumers are conservative about cars as a statement about themselves. Owning a Tesla, today, is a political statement. Even among those who agree with Musk, most don’t want to signal that day to day.
This take is not supported by the data. Used Tesla prices are crashing across the board. Sales are crashing across the board. Polls show clear negative sentiment towards the brand.
The old lineup isn’t helping. And yes, there will be a blip when the Y comes out. Tesla builds good cars and plenty of people buy on price and quality. But there is a reason most cars come in black, grey and white—consumers are conservative about cars as a statement about themselves. Owning a Tesla, today, is a political statement. Even among those who agree with Musk, most don’t want to signal that day to day.
> Because why buy a Model Y in December at full price, when you can order the new version for the same price?
You want to buy before Trump gets rid of the $7500 EV tax credit?
You want to buy before Trump gets rid of the $7500 EV tax credit?
Worth noting that this is not a new phenomenon. Pretty much every model gets a full redesign every 6 years or so, and a “mid-generation refresh” every 3 years or so.
Previously:
Tesla Sales Are Tanking in Europe
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42698077
Tesla Sales Are Tanking in Europe
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42698077
Well, Model Y was best selling car in the world for 2 years running. Seems a likely candidate to be again. This is probably due to flipping over inventory for the new Model Y to launch
> Model Y was best selling car in the world for 2 years running
Teslas were cool for two years running. Look, the MAGA market is a big one. But it’s silly to think something as personal as a car won’t be affected by Musk’s politics. (We aren’t even in the phase where Tesla gets hit with targeted counter-tariffs.)
Teslas were cool for two years running. Look, the MAGA market is a big one. But it’s silly to think something as personal as a car won’t be affected by Musk’s politics. (We aren’t even in the phase where Tesla gets hit with targeted counter-tariffs.)
> something as personal as a car
This is such a weird-but-probably-true take. I know it happens, but it's such a shame. Most people can't even name the CEO of their carmaker, much less that person's political positions. Most people just want to get to work and the store, and have very little other choice than some kind of car. Self expression through highly regulated corporations' focus groups: how sad.
This is such a weird-but-probably-true take. I know it happens, but it's such a shame. Most people can't even name the CEO of their carmaker, much less that person's political positions. Most people just want to get to work and the store, and have very little other choice than some kind of car. Self expression through highly regulated corporations' focus groups: how sad.
CEOs of other carmakers take great pains for you to not know their political views as they are a private matter and may harm brand image. Musk has done a hard 180 degree turn in this regard. To make matters worse, Musk has become almost universally despised. Combine this with the flop that is the CyberTruck, and Tesla can expect their sales to plunge in the upcoming quarter.
He’s not universally despised. Even among democrats, half admire his talent and success. And in EVs, Teslas are still the best. I know you’re trying to manufacture a case for Tesla’s failure due to your political bias against Musk, but the reality is other car manufacturers are doing worse and have serious large scale problems, without any real strategy. Tesla, despite controversy, seems like it has more going for it than being just another car manufacturer.
> I know you’re trying to manufacture a case for Tesla’s failure
The CyberTruck launch has faced significant challenges, to say the least, and Tesla's sales have dropped by 50% in key European markets. In California, the largest US EV market, Tesla sales have also declined significantly. Meanwhile, Hyundai and Kia have seen significant sales increases and market share growth in 2024. These are the facts as they stand.
The CyberTruck launch has faced significant challenges, to say the least, and Tesla's sales have dropped by 50% in key European markets. In California, the largest US EV market, Tesla sales have also declined significantly. Meanwhile, Hyundai and Kia have seen significant sales increases and market share growth in 2024. These are the facts as they stand.
BYD will most likely sell more battery only EVs than Tesla this year and appear to have no problem scaling, they also sell cars that fit the majority of market segments.
Maybe Tesla's strategy of only 3 models and betting on robotaxis is the right one, but they have a serious risk of falling behind.
Maybe Tesla's strategy of only 3 models and betting on robotaxis is the right one, but they have a serious risk of falling behind.
There's no real reason to think the "MAGA market" won't make up for the lost sales of the leftist market, or that it's particularly big swing either way ( most people don't care about politics and just want the best product )
>There's no real reason to think the "MAGA market" won't make up for the lost sales of the leftist market
Well, yes there is - right-wing people are happy burning fossil fuels.
Well, yes there is - right-wing people are happy burning fossil fuels.
Can you go rollin’ coal in a Tesla?
I know a guy. Pretty sure he could build you an aftermarket add-on where, yes, you could. It would be hilarious. (Also obnoxious, but still hilarious.)
I see this drop across Europe and Canada but the US is still alright. For some reason though, any negative news about Tesla doesn't reflect in the stock price. Wonder if the US market is propping it up, xAI nebulous or may be just musk's incessant tweeting.
tsla has been detached from fundamentals for a while now
TSLA is a meme stock.
No company with US President on its asset list is going to tank on stock market.
A morbidly obese 78 year old with signs of early onset dementia. What are the GAAP depreciation rules on such an asset?
I would not be surprised at all if they broke up within a couple of months.
Meta: This has been up for 7 hours now and it's encouraging to see that it hasn't automatically been flagged.
Edit: looks like I'm late to the party -- it was (predictably) flagged, and (thankfully) unflagged after protests.
Edit: looks like I'm late to the party -- it was (predictably) flagged, and (thankfully) unflagged after protests.
expecting tesla stock to jump 10% tomorrow after elon announces flying robotaxis by thanksgiving
Surely this can't be because the Model Y (literally the best selling car in the world) just had a refresh announced that won't be available until March?
Essentially duplicate of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42922298
Gee I wonder what could have caused this? I’m glad I was early to the party when we cancelled ours when Elon insinuated in a tweet there might be a valid reason for Nancy Pelosi’s husband to have been hit in the head with a hammer in his home.
Every Tesla I see now all I see is a FascistMobile.
Every Tesla I see now all I see is a FascistMobile.
[deleted]
This may get flagged as it's similar to previous articles that were flagged, but I'd just like to point out that ideological arguments pro or con about Tesla stories rarely seem to be the true reason. That is, whenever there is an article about Tesla sales slipping you see lots of "That's because all the liberal EV buyers hate Elon now!" comments. And as much as I may personally want that to be true, if you dig a teeny bit you nearly always find that economic reasons are much more plausible - e.g. as some other comments have pointed out, the rise of competition especially BYD, people holding off for the new model Y, difficulty in finding repairs, etc.
Lots of consumers like to talk a good political game but pocketbook issues always seem to take precedence when push comes to shove.
Lots of consumers like to talk a good political game but pocketbook issues always seem to take precedence when push comes to shove.
I think there are more viable alternatives now than there were a few years ago, which makes it a lot easier to choose an alternative even if the negative brand association with Elon is only a small effect.
Of course, when the viable alternatives were few or none, that negative brand association would have to be much stronger to affect buying decisions.
Of course, when the viable alternatives were few or none, that negative brand association would have to be much stronger to affect buying decisions.
Maybe, but I do know that in my part of the US, I'd regular see a dozen or so Teslas on the road during my commute. Over the last few weeks, though, I've spotted a total of two. There appear to be a lot of people who have stopped driving them so much.
Yep, I think the availability of other options helps a lot, and it's important we don't lose this competition now that the head of Tesla has somehow finagled a position in government (it will continue to be insane to me every time I think about that).
I bought a Tesla in 2019 - back when it was the Eco conscious car nerd choice, and before he started skewing right.
I liked it so much I got solar for my house from Tesla, along with multiple powerwalls.
Frankly, the car has been an embarrassment to take out into the world for the last three or four years.
With him outing himself as an outright nazi, yesterday I spent fifteen minutes with a heat gun, dental floss, and Goo Gone debadging my car.
I’m profoundly not ok with giving the impression that I am ok with Musk’s abhorrent behavior.
I liked it so much I got solar for my house from Tesla, along with multiple powerwalls.
Frankly, the car has been an embarrassment to take out into the world for the last three or four years.
With him outing himself as an outright nazi, yesterday I spent fifteen minutes with a heat gun, dental floss, and Goo Gone debadging my car.
I’m profoundly not ok with giving the impression that I am ok with Musk’s abhorrent behavior.
I hope you either:
(A) design your own replacement logo (perhaps something subversive), or
(B) stick on a logo from another brand... Maybe an old British/Euro brand? Or a brand associated with gas-guzzlers. Or an old-school rainbow Apple logo.
(A) design your own replacement logo (perhaps something subversive), or
(B) stick on a logo from another brand... Maybe an old British/Euro brand? Or a brand associated with gas-guzzlers. Or an old-school rainbow Apple logo.
Funny you should say this– I'm working on that right now. :-)
I've had a complete Mazda 3 badge set from Fleabay in a drawer in my garage that I ordered when he first started skewing right. I picked those because, if you squint right, it kind of resembles a Mazda 3 (and nobody is going to give it a second thought once they see Mazda badges).
Just downloaded from Thingiverse files for blank wheel center caps for the car and, separately, the Mazda logo. Caps are printing now.
Aiming for stealth rather than activism with the de- and re-badging. Activism is for other venues.
I've had a complete Mazda 3 badge set from Fleabay in a drawer in my garage that I ordered when he first started skewing right. I picked those because, if you squint right, it kind of resembles a Mazda 3 (and nobody is going to give it a second thought once they see Mazda badges).
Just downloaded from Thingiverse files for blank wheel center caps for the car and, separately, the Mazda logo. Caps are printing now.
Aiming for stealth rather than activism with the de- and re-badging. Activism is for other venues.
Cool. I occasionally use cryptic branding/marking to cloak valuables as something undesirable to steal.
Why don't you just sell the car? seems silly imho
I think you’re correct. Ideology rarely affects brand penetration this much.
Whenever I talk to people in Europe , they always talk about the other options. Tesla is just not competitive there as a brand.
I do hope that one outcome of this stupid tariff war here is that Canada drops the tariffs on Chinese EVs. They exist to protect US brands but we’re losing out on so many great options.
Whenever I talk to people in Europe , they always talk about the other options. Tesla is just not competitive there as a brand.
I do hope that one outcome of this stupid tariff war here is that Canada drops the tariffs on Chinese EVs. They exist to protect US brands but we’re losing out on so many great options.
>Ideology rarely affects brand penetration this much.
CEO's rarely open their mouths this much.
CEO's rarely open their mouths this much.
[deleted]
I said it before and I'll say it again. If you bought a Tesla because of Elon Musk (when he was cool), or sold a Tesla because of Elon Musk (because now he's not cool), then you're not really buying a car but social capital.
I simply buy the best car I can afford that has the ride/styling/features/quality I want. In my opinion, those that don't are out of their minds.
Not sure how associating major consumer purchases with people became a status of being cool or not. I don't really care why people like this buy and sell cars. I guess it's like Apple, everyone wanted to ride the Steve Jobs bandwagon back in the day.
This is the stuff that gets people upset?
I simply buy the best car I can afford that has the ride/styling/features/quality I want. In my opinion, those that don't are out of their minds.
Not sure how associating major consumer purchases with people became a status of being cool or not. I don't really care why people like this buy and sell cars. I guess it's like Apple, everyone wanted to ride the Steve Jobs bandwagon back in the day.
This is the stuff that gets people upset?
Boiling this argument into "being cool or not" is disingenuous when we're talking about a person directly threatening your current way of life. Just two cents coming from a citizen of a European country where he's attempting to meddle with the politics. Probably getting a Korean car next, despite them being objectively worse and more expensive for my needs.
Like it or not, if you buy a Tesla today you are signaling that you're okay with being associated with Nazism.
Regardless if you care or not, if you buy a Tesla you're also giving Elon more power, again aiding a Nazi.
You may think that's unfair but that's just how it is.
But it seems you just don't care if people are Nazis or not. Maybe the lack of empathy is why you think it's absolutely crazy to nor just consider the car itself?
Regardless if you care or not, if you buy a Tesla you're also giving Elon more power, again aiding a Nazi.
You may think that's unfair but that's just how it is.
But it seems you just don't care if people are Nazis or not. Maybe the lack of empathy is why you think it's absolutely crazy to nor just consider the car itself?
> if you buy a Tesla today you are signaling that you're okay with being associated with Nazism.
Sounds like social capital to me, which is the point I was making. My purchases don't relate to social signaling on my part, not sure how we got here.
I mean, people don't have a problem with the iPhones being built by essentially slave labor. Technically if you buy an iPhone, I guess by your logic you're okay being associated with slavery.
Utter nonsense.
Sounds like social capital to me, which is the point I was making. My purchases don't relate to social signaling on my part, not sure how we got here.
I mean, people don't have a problem with the iPhones being built by essentially slave labor. Technically if you buy an iPhone, I guess by your logic you're okay being associated with slavery.
Utter nonsense.
> My purchases don't relate to social signaling on my part, not sure how we got here.
You're signaling regardless.
> Technically if you buy an iPhone, I guess by your logic you're okay being associated with slavery.
Yes, to an extent that's correct.
We must remember though that things are never black and white and nobody is perfect.
You're signaling regardless.
> Technically if you buy an iPhone, I guess by your logic you're okay being associated with slavery.
Yes, to an extent that's correct.
We must remember though that things are never black and white and nobody is perfect.
Most brand values exist because purchases are social capital, and this has been the case for a long time.
I mean, people don't have a problem with the iPhones being built by essentially slave labor.
If you can walk out the door under your own power, then you're not a slave. Check your privilege (and while you're at it, your history.)
If you gleefully throw Nazi salutes while addressing a friendly far-right audience, then you're a Nazi, mentally ill, or both. Either way, I'm not buying a car from you.
If you can walk out the door under your own power, then you're not a slave. Check your privilege (and while you're at it, your history.)
If you gleefully throw Nazi salutes while addressing a friendly far-right audience, then you're a Nazi, mentally ill, or both. Either way, I'm not buying a car from you.
The fact that you try to make this about “being cool” is absurd.
Missing from this exquisite take is any evidence you present that this describes anyone else besides the guy that got a picture of Robert Mueller tattoed on his body during Russiagate and a couple of more likeminded hapless stringers.
Democrats were into being green before any of the post-Roadster cars came out. It's like saying that a ton of people bought iphones did so because they thought Jobs was a genius beforehand. No, they became insufferable Jobs fanboys because they thought the iphone was amazing.
Democrats were into being green before any of the post-Roadster cars came out. It's like saying that a ton of people bought iphones did so because they thought Jobs was a genius beforehand. No, they became insufferable Jobs fanboys because they thought the iphone was amazing.
They might have plummeted but it’s worth mentioning that in the UK vehicle taxes have changed this year for electric vehicles. Most EVs are still leased through employer linked things that incur an income tax saving, but that got less generous since a ‘benefit in kind’ charge now applies to EVs, and the road tax is no longer free for EVs from this year. Those things together make people much more price sensitive than they were a year ago.
The thing with cars is that this is one of few things where Europe can do a MEGA. We can buy our own and the reasons to do so seem to grow by the day.
I honestly have found it always very lame to virtue signal by means of buying a car or to cancel by not buying one. Common people generally don't think that way. Real life is not Twitter. At least not where I live.
But that's changing. 3 years ago Musk was just edgy and annoying but everybody still wanted a Tesla. Now when I talk to people in the market for a car they openly dismiss the "Nazi car".
Lucky for Musk that his stock is a fan stock, not a business stock.
I honestly have found it always very lame to virtue signal by means of buying a car or to cancel by not buying one. Common people generally don't think that way. Real life is not Twitter. At least not where I live.
But that's changing. 3 years ago Musk was just edgy and annoying but everybody still wanted a Tesla. Now when I talk to people in the market for a car they openly dismiss the "Nazi car".
Lucky for Musk that his stock is a fan stock, not a business stock.
Musk has turned Teslas into swasticars. That brand damage is going to be hard to undo.
BOYCOTT TESLA, TWITTER and SPACEX.
TESLA SALES PLUMMETED in the UK, France, and Germany.
TESLA SALES PLUMMETED 60% in January in Germany compared to the same period last year.
The world is watching. You guys in America better fix this shit. And fast.
The world is watching. You guys in America better fix this shit. And fast.
My neighbor -- a very earnest, smart, progressive 27 year old working in alternative energy -- bought one just before the election. His deposit went in sometime in the spring.
He was super excited about it at first, but the spring in his step is much reduced now. I feel bad for him.
I mean, true life, I think most people have pretty good experiences with Teslas. The brand was pretty resilient vs. Elon's shenanigans until fairly recently, but now, man, whatever goodwill he had he's busily taken a flame thrower to. We'll probably go EV or hybrid for our next car, and there's no way in hell we'd consider a Tesla AT ALL.
He was super excited about it at first, but the spring in his step is much reduced now. I feel bad for him.
I mean, true life, I think most people have pretty good experiences with Teslas. The brand was pretty resilient vs. Elon's shenanigans until fairly recently, but now, man, whatever goodwill he had he's busily taken a flame thrower to. We'll probably go EV or hybrid for our next car, and there's no way in hell we'd consider a Tesla AT ALL.
> the spring in his step is much reduced now
Musk hasn't suddenly changed in the past few months. His deranged/racist behaviour has been going on for years. What has prompted your neighbour to regret his purchase?
Musk hasn't suddenly changed in the past few months. His deranged/racist behaviour has been going on for years. What has prompted your neighbour to regret his purchase?
The salute definitely upped things a level.
Somehow I don't think this question is being asked in good faith.
Remember, not everyone watches Musk like HN apparently does. I knew who he was, and wouldn't have bought one of his cars 5 years ago. But a 27 year old working outside tech and not invested in social media could easily miss the magnitude of his assholery.
Remember, not everyone watches Musk like HN apparently does. I knew who he was, and wouldn't have bought one of his cars 5 years ago. But a 27 year old working outside tech and not invested in social media could easily miss the magnitude of his assholery.
I mean, I think it has become more _visible_. A few years back, you’d only really know about it if you were Very Online. It is now utterly impossible to ignore.
>Musk hasn't suddenly changed in the past few months.
Respectfully, that is a minority view.
Respectfully, that is a minority view.
Thank you for respectfully disagreeing. Will you elaborate so that I can hear a different perspective?
Are you actually serious?
Did you not happen to see him perform multiple nazi salutes on live TV, during the inauguration of the president of the world's largest economy?
That was Jan 21st. Before then, I was only aware that he was a bit of a dick online.
Now he's radioactive, and with very good reason. He's an evil person who I will do everything I can to not enable.
Did you not happen to see him perform multiple nazi salutes on live TV, during the inauguration of the president of the world's largest economy?
That was Jan 21st. Before then, I was only aware that he was a bit of a dick online.
Now he's radioactive, and with very good reason. He's an evil person who I will do everything I can to not enable.
Yes, it was a serious question, because even before his public Nazi salutes, he already had a history of anti-Semitic tweets online, which were later widely reported in many media outlets, such as the BBC. (I don't use Twitter, and never have, and yet I was aware of his racist viewpoints.) Tesla factories in the USA were also known for poor treatment of black employees. Thus I didn't see his Nazi salutes as surprising behaviour. Shocking, yes, and very repehensible, but unfortunately not surprising.
I agree he's probably always been a piece of shit, but Nazi salutes on live TV at the inauguration is absolutely next level.
Anyone remotely interested in buying the most popular Tesla model (Y) have been waiting for the 2025 update, code-named Juniper. It's been rumored for months and finally launched in Europe on January 24, 2025.
Just like everyone knew about the Highland revamp of the Model 3, same time last year.
The Model Y is the most popular car globally, all mainstream and social media covered the Juniper launch.
Just like everyone knew about the Highland revamp of the Model 3, same time last year.
The Model Y is the most popular car globally, all mainstream and social media covered the Juniper launch.
And I'd buy one too if the interiors weren't worse than an entry-level Toyota. And if the internals weren't locked down like an iPhone going through puberty.
I think the AfD is going to find that tying themselves with Elon Musk might bring around the hardcore folk who would have gone with fringe political groups it's going to drive away the centre-right. Linking yourself with a guy who did what is considered within Germany to be a Hitler salute is probably not going to go too well for them.
Depends. Do they have the policies the voting public want?
Humans will routinely overlook bad window dressing like prejudice and authoritarianism if they get some policies they like out of the deal. This has shown itself to be true over and over.
If Dieter, 63, from some economically-disadvantaged part of Germany gets a promise to do something about "those people" coming and enjoying the German welfare state and to focus on issues faced by "real Germans", and he thinks he can get something out of it, he might very well forget that the guy the AfD invited to speak did a Nazi salute.
Same happened in the Midwest with Trump and north of England for Brexit.
Humans will routinely overlook bad window dressing like prejudice and authoritarianism if they get some policies they like out of the deal. This has shown itself to be true over and over.
If Dieter, 63, from some economically-disadvantaged part of Germany gets a promise to do something about "those people" coming and enjoying the German welfare state and to focus on issues faced by "real Germans", and he thinks he can get something out of it, he might very well forget that the guy the AfD invited to speak did a Nazi salute.
Same happened in the Midwest with Trump and north of England for Brexit.
This is a matter so serious to Germans that most Germans won't overlook it.
It's interesting that you say that, because the former GDR is where AfD is having the most success. Y'know, the part of the country that was run as a puppet of the Soviet Union and was more stridently "anti-fascist" for the majority of the postwar period? [0]
As recently as 2023 they were the second-strongest party in Germany according to the polls. [1]
Most Germans today only know of the horrors of Nazism from the history books. They have no real experience with it. There is nothing special about any particular nationality that makes them immune to the scourge of reanimated fascism. The Soviet Union bore horrible losses to the Nazis in WWII and the largest former SSR, Russia, is more-or-less a fascist state today. A salute isn't as alienating as "being left behind" by the world.
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_European_Parliament_elect...
[1]https://www.dw.com/en/far-right-afd-emerges-as-germanys-seco...
As recently as 2023 they were the second-strongest party in Germany according to the polls. [1]
Most Germans today only know of the horrors of Nazism from the history books. They have no real experience with it. There is nothing special about any particular nationality that makes them immune to the scourge of reanimated fascism. The Soviet Union bore horrible losses to the Nazis in WWII and the largest former SSR, Russia, is more-or-less a fascist state today. A salute isn't as alienating as "being left behind" by the world.
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_European_Parliament_elect...
[1]https://www.dw.com/en/far-right-afd-emerges-as-germanys-seco...
> It's interesting that you say that, because the former GDR is where AfD is having the most success. Y'know, the part of the country that was run as a puppet of the Soviet Union and was more stridently "anti-fascist" for the majority of the postwar period? [0]
It's running strong in the racist part of the country. The area of Germany where they were literally tying up people at the side of the road and the police did nothing. Or where a bunch of racists stood and chanted racist chants at a bus and the police made the people on the bus get off. That's the area where they have the racist marches. Aka the poor part of Germany. Where there are poor people there are people blaming someone for them being poor.
But not in all of the former GDR.
> Most Germans today only know of the horrors of Nazism from the history books. They have no real experience with it. There is nothing special about any particular nationality that makes them immune to the scourge of reanimated fascism. The Soviet Union bore horrible losses to the Nazis in WWII and the largest former SSR, Russia, is more-or-less a fascist state today. A salute isn't as alienating as "being left behind" by the world.
You seem to think I'm saying they're immune. I'm saying that a large majority of the country is very anti the far-right. So much so that the CDU had to walk back a vote where they voted with the AfD, this was a vote for a permanent border control. It passed the first vote, the second vote it did not after Germany had massive protests over the fact the CDU broke the unwritten rule that mainstream parties don't cooperate with the far-right parties.
> A salute isn't as alienating as "being left behind" by the world.
I think you think this is profound but it's just showing a lack of overall insight. Being left behind is basically what facists want.
It's running strong in the racist part of the country. The area of Germany where they were literally tying up people at the side of the road and the police did nothing. Or where a bunch of racists stood and chanted racist chants at a bus and the police made the people on the bus get off. That's the area where they have the racist marches. Aka the poor part of Germany. Where there are poor people there are people blaming someone for them being poor.
But not in all of the former GDR.
> Most Germans today only know of the horrors of Nazism from the history books. They have no real experience with it. There is nothing special about any particular nationality that makes them immune to the scourge of reanimated fascism. The Soviet Union bore horrible losses to the Nazis in WWII and the largest former SSR, Russia, is more-or-less a fascist state today. A salute isn't as alienating as "being left behind" by the world.
You seem to think I'm saying they're immune. I'm saying that a large majority of the country is very anti the far-right. So much so that the CDU had to walk back a vote where they voted with the AfD, this was a vote for a permanent border control. It passed the first vote, the second vote it did not after Germany had massive protests over the fact the CDU broke the unwritten rule that mainstream parties don't cooperate with the far-right parties.
> A salute isn't as alienating as "being left behind" by the world.
I think you think this is profound but it's just showing a lack of overall insight. Being left behind is basically what facists want.
> You seem to think I'm saying they're immune. I'm saying that a large majority of the country is very anti the far-right. So much so that the CDU had to walk back a vote where they voted with the AfD, this was a vote for a permanent border control. It passed the first vote, the second vote it did not after Germany had massive protests over the fact the CDU broke the unwritten rule that mainstream parties don't cooperate with the far-right parties.
And?
There were people who hated the NSDAP back in the 1920s. Hitler was seen as an egomaniacal leech with no aristocratic roots and a band of street toughs to back him up. No one wanted to cooperate with them in the Weimar Republic.
But the Nazis said the right things to the right people, and developed a voter bloc. After a while, it does not matter if you hate working on legislation with the far-right. They have the votes, and if you want government to "work", you have to cater to their whims.
As there are more and more migrants moving into Germany, and more and more international competition in the manufacturing sector worldwide, you can generally count on more and more people getting interested in at least part of AfD's message.
The fact that Björn Höcke was kept in AfD after decrying the presence of Holocaust memorials on German soil, and was given a token punishment for using far-right propaganda in campaigning, reminds me a lot of Trump's trajectory.
And?
There were people who hated the NSDAP back in the 1920s. Hitler was seen as an egomaniacal leech with no aristocratic roots and a band of street toughs to back him up. No one wanted to cooperate with them in the Weimar Republic.
But the Nazis said the right things to the right people, and developed a voter bloc. After a while, it does not matter if you hate working on legislation with the far-right. They have the votes, and if you want government to "work", you have to cater to their whims.
As there are more and more migrants moving into Germany, and more and more international competition in the manufacturing sector worldwide, you can generally count on more and more people getting interested in at least part of AfD's message.
The fact that Björn Höcke was kept in AfD after decrying the presence of Holocaust memorials on German soil, and was given a token punishment for using far-right propaganda in campaigning, reminds me a lot of Trump's trajectory.
At least in the US, as long as the charging infrastructure is no better than it is, if you're planning on taking any long trips and you want to do it in an EV, I don't see any alternative to Tesla. And, yes, I know that other brands can now use designated Superchargers and maybe that's enough, but given how few those designations are I doubt it.
> if you're planning on taking any long trips and you want to do it in an EV, I don't see any alternative to Tesla.
I've taken several long trips in a non-Tesla EV in the United States over the last few years. Never had a problem. Almost every interaction with a public DCFC has been plug and go. Only recently got a NACS->CCS adapter, still haven't needed to use it in about a year since I got it.
I've taken several long trips in a non-Tesla EV in the United States over the last few years. Never had a problem. Almost every interaction with a public DCFC has been plug and go. Only recently got a NACS->CCS adapter, still haven't needed to use it in about a year since I got it.
Will be making a cross country trip next month and explicitly avoiding any Tesla chargers. Planning to share my anecdotal experience. My car has an API so I can get trip and charging details to make for a nice HN data driven post
FSD makes Tesla superior to any car out there. No other car comes even close.
Although I heard that FSD was already crippled in eu so maybe they aren't missing out as much.
Although I heard that FSD was already crippled in eu so maybe they aren't missing out as much.
https://x.com/zfescht/status/1886375804839313717
This is the best Tesla offers in Europe for now
This is the best Tesla offers in Europe for now
I live in the US and I bought a Tesla in early 2020, it's easily the worst purchase I've ever made.
The build quality is crap, the interior cheap feeling, and yes I got FSD and that is the worst part. FSD is only adequate in bumper to bumper traffic.
Any other scenario it's not good enough to drive itself without you babysitting it. So if you have to babysit it, what's the point? It's actually worse to babysit it than just to drive normally, because you get frustrated with FSD's shortcomings (wide turns, inability to merge, sudden freak outs when the painted road lines are obscured).
The build quality is crap, the interior cheap feeling, and yes I got FSD and that is the worst part. FSD is only adequate in bumper to bumper traffic.
Any other scenario it's not good enough to drive itself without you babysitting it. So if you have to babysit it, what's the point? It's actually worse to babysit it than just to drive normally, because you get frustrated with FSD's shortcomings (wide turns, inability to merge, sudden freak outs when the painted road lines are obscured).
> and yes I got FSD
Make sure you demand new hardware for your car:
https://electrek.co/2025/01/29/elon-musk-finally-admits-that...
Tesla's claim that they had solved the hardware problem eight years ago was a lie:
https://electrek.co/2024/08/24/tesla-deletes-its-blog-post-s...
Make sure you demand new hardware for your car:
https://electrek.co/2025/01/29/elon-musk-finally-admits-that...
Tesla's claim that they had solved the hardware problem eight years ago was a lie:
https://electrek.co/2024/08/24/tesla-deletes-its-blog-post-s...
I bought mine in 2019 and another in 2024, they're the best cars I've ever driven.
Yeah, good luck with that. FSD has been a year away for over a decade. I predict states will outlaw it/require the driver to be fully in control of the vehicle if people actually start using it. Right now the error rate is so much higher than human drivers that it's ridiculous.
Why is this downvoted?
You can disagree without downvoting this, it's a reasonable take
You can disagree without downvoting this, it's a reasonable take
Conversation here: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1879785727468163505