Why can't we remember our lives as babies or toddlers?(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Why can't we remember our lives as babies or toddlers?
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2025/feb/16/why-cant-we-remember-our-lives-as-babies-or-toddlers
269 comments
It seemed obvious to me that part was tongue-in-cheek and not to be taken literally. It’s quite common to get readers to be ‘hooked’.
Perhaps. I've seen enough selfish parents voice this sentiment unironically to no longer give people that benefit of doubt.
Not perhaps. It's 100% tongue-in-cheek.
The word "perhaps" was an attempt to de-escalate a verbal confrontation that is unproductive because neither assertion is falsifiable.
Assume the readers are dumb and in the meantime Huberman is in top 10 of most popular podcasts of all time.
Journalists and their great education is the more likely culprit.
Journalists and their great education is the more likely culprit.
> They lack language so have no other way of communicating than screaming
This is one of those good reasons to teach babies basic sign language (https://www.parents.com/what-is-baby-sign-language-5115901).
This is one of those good reasons to teach babies basic sign language (https://www.parents.com/what-is-baby-sign-language-5115901).
Teaching my kids sign language was such an eye-opener. Prior to that I was totally oblivious to how smart babies are. I guess I assumed that they developed speech somewhat in time with their understanding of language. This couldn't be further from the truth though. There's a huge gap. Maybe I was especially clueless; I didn't grow up around babies, so this stuff might be obvious to people who did.
Also be sure to start at age 0, don’t wait until 6 months.
Signing and talking to your baby from day 0 about what you are doing and why brings them so much comfort. And gives them the opportunity to develop so much more quickly and confidently.
While we're sharing tips: it turns out that babies are born with a basic sense of hygiene and unlearn it because we leave them lying in their dirty diapers for too long, so they desensitize as a way to cope. If you put them on the pot from the start they will try to hold it in, and will try signal to you when they need to pee or poop because they know their needs will be met. So again it is about communication and paying attention.
We did this and while our child still needed diapers, we only went through half the number we would have otherwise. Potty training was also a lot easier compared to the experiences of our friends.
We did this and while our child still needed diapers, we only went through half the number we would have otherwise. Potty training was also a lot easier compared to the experiences of our friends.
>Babies are also almost completely unable to move around by themselves and are constantly frustrated by their lack of agency. They are extremely vulnerable and utterly dependent on the kindness of their parents and other older humans in their environment. They lack language so have no other way of communicating than screaming, which is often also a cause of great distress because of an inability to communicate a basic need
Funny, the same things happen when you become elderly, minus the screaming mostly.
Funny, the same things happen when you become elderly, minus the screaming mostly.
Having been to nursing homes and assisted living facilities I think that's mainly due to drugs.
Yep, you'd be surprised by how many turn downright violent when unmedicated. Sometimes the violence is a big part of the reason why the family ended up having to send them to a nursing home.
Man, the nursing homes in the 90s germany, where dement SS-soldiers goto attack polish nurses and victims of the russian liberation ran from any nurse with the accent. Sometimes drugs are the only thing keeping a institution working.
> Funny, the same things happen when you become elderly, minus the screaming mostly.
You just unlocked a memory of me reading "The Praise of Folly" in my teens for literature class and having my mind blown by the passage talking about that:
> Yet abating from this, let us examine the case more narrowly. Who knows not that the first scene of infancy is far the most pleasant and delightsome? What then is it in children that makes us so kiss, hug, and play with them, and that the bloodiest enemy can scarce have the heart to hurt them; but their ingredients of innocence and Folly, of which nature out of providence did purposely compound and blend their tender infancy, that by a frank return of pleasure they might make some sort of amends for their parents' trouble, and give in caution as it were for the discharge of a future education; the next advance from childhood is youth, and how favourably is this dealt with; how kind, courteous, and respectful are all to it? and how ready to become serviceable upon all occasions? And whence reaps it this happiness? Whence indeed, but from me only, by whose procurement it is furnished with little of wisdom, and so with the less of disquiet?
> And when once lads begin to grow up, and attempt to write man, their prettiness does then soon decay, their briskness flags, their humours stagnate, their jollity ceases, and their blood grows cold; and the farther they proceed in years, the more they grow backward in the enjoyment of themselves, till waspish old age comes on, a burden to itself as well as others, and that so heavy and oppressive, as none would bear the weight of, unless out of pity to their sufferings.
> I again intervene, and lend a helping-hand, assisting them at a dead lift, in the same method the poets feign their gods to succour dying men, by transforming them into new creatures, which I do by bringing them back, after they have one foot in the grave, to their infancy again; so as there is a great deal of truth couched in that old proverb, Once an old man, and twice a child.
> Now if any one be curious to understand what course I take to effect this alteration, my method is this: I bring them to my well of forgetfulness, (the fountain whereof is in the Fortunate Islands, and the river Lethe in hell but a small stream of it), and when they have there filled their bellies full, and washed down care, by the virtue and operation whereof they become young again.
> Ay, but (say you) they merely dote, and play the fool: why yes, this is what I mean by growing young again: for what else is it to be a child than to be a fool and an idiot? It is the being such that makes that age so acceptable: for who does not esteem it somewhat ominous to see a boy endowed with the discretion of a man, and therefore for the curbing of too forward parts we have a disparaging proverb, Soon ripe, soon rotten?
> And farther, who would keep company or have any thing to do with such an old blade, as, after the wear and harrowing of so many years should yet continue of as clear a head and sound a judgment as he had at any time been in his middle-age; and therefore it is great kindness of me that old men grow fools, since it is hereby only that they are freed from such vexations as would torment them if they were more wise: they can drink briskly, bear up stoutly, and lightly pass over such infirmities, as a far stronger constitution could scarce master. Sometime, with the old fellow in Plautus, they are brought back to their horn-book again, to learn to spell their fortune in love.
(I obviously had to look it up, it's not like I had this memorized after a quarter century)
I don't think Erasmus was right about the elderly growing blissfully happy with losing themselves to dementia, but then again: the book was satire, so we shouldn't expect Folly to be sincere in their arguments.
[0] https://www.gutenberg.org/files/30201/30201-h/30201-h.htm
You just unlocked a memory of me reading "The Praise of Folly" in my teens for literature class and having my mind blown by the passage talking about that:
> Yet abating from this, let us examine the case more narrowly. Who knows not that the first scene of infancy is far the most pleasant and delightsome? What then is it in children that makes us so kiss, hug, and play with them, and that the bloodiest enemy can scarce have the heart to hurt them; but their ingredients of innocence and Folly, of which nature out of providence did purposely compound and blend their tender infancy, that by a frank return of pleasure they might make some sort of amends for their parents' trouble, and give in caution as it were for the discharge of a future education; the next advance from childhood is youth, and how favourably is this dealt with; how kind, courteous, and respectful are all to it? and how ready to become serviceable upon all occasions? And whence reaps it this happiness? Whence indeed, but from me only, by whose procurement it is furnished with little of wisdom, and so with the less of disquiet?
> And when once lads begin to grow up, and attempt to write man, their prettiness does then soon decay, their briskness flags, their humours stagnate, their jollity ceases, and their blood grows cold; and the farther they proceed in years, the more they grow backward in the enjoyment of themselves, till waspish old age comes on, a burden to itself as well as others, and that so heavy and oppressive, as none would bear the weight of, unless out of pity to their sufferings.
> I again intervene, and lend a helping-hand, assisting them at a dead lift, in the same method the poets feign their gods to succour dying men, by transforming them into new creatures, which I do by bringing them back, after they have one foot in the grave, to their infancy again; so as there is a great deal of truth couched in that old proverb, Once an old man, and twice a child.
> Now if any one be curious to understand what course I take to effect this alteration, my method is this: I bring them to my well of forgetfulness, (the fountain whereof is in the Fortunate Islands, and the river Lethe in hell but a small stream of it), and when they have there filled their bellies full, and washed down care, by the virtue and operation whereof they become young again.
> Ay, but (say you) they merely dote, and play the fool: why yes, this is what I mean by growing young again: for what else is it to be a child than to be a fool and an idiot? It is the being such that makes that age so acceptable: for who does not esteem it somewhat ominous to see a boy endowed with the discretion of a man, and therefore for the curbing of too forward parts we have a disparaging proverb, Soon ripe, soon rotten?
> And farther, who would keep company or have any thing to do with such an old blade, as, after the wear and harrowing of so many years should yet continue of as clear a head and sound a judgment as he had at any time been in his middle-age; and therefore it is great kindness of me that old men grow fools, since it is hereby only that they are freed from such vexations as would torment them if they were more wise: they can drink briskly, bear up stoutly, and lightly pass over such infirmities, as a far stronger constitution could scarce master. Sometime, with the old fellow in Plautus, they are brought back to their horn-book again, to learn to spell their fortune in love.
(I obviously had to look it up, it's not like I had this memorized after a quarter century)
I don't think Erasmus was right about the elderly growing blissfully happy with losing themselves to dementia, but then again: the book was satire, so we shouldn't expect Folly to be sincere in their arguments.
[0] https://www.gutenberg.org/files/30201/30201-h/30201-h.htm
My guess is that the author was looking for a reason to use the term "temerity" and built the statement around this desire.
Indeed, my father's earliest memory is when he was a baby & couldn't talk. His two aunts, quite young at the time, were joking around with him, having taken him out of the stroller & moving him around recklessly. He identified at that point he was a toy to them
Well, trauma-memories are supposedly the strongest ones, and that sounds like it would have been pretty traumatic at the time.
That's some very good insight, often difficult to remember, but constantly having all of this in mind should definitely help a bit with managing the day to day of parenting.
All of what you describe is probably a big part of why we don’t remember. Not only has the though encoding/decoding process not been developed sufficiently to remember things in the way we do when older but even if we did those memories would probably be horrific for the most part.
i think encoding and decoding has a lot to do with it. we can watch a Disney movie and I'll ask my 4yo what it was about and she can name the main character but without prompting can't tell you where they went or why. Those phony sounding assignments of "what i did over summer vacation" don't seem so useless now. Right now we're getting lots of imaginative story fragments but missing a coherent narrative linking one sentence to the next. It's interesting watching them play with language and learn how stories work in real time
Yeah I always think being a baby or toddler must be endlessly frustrating. Imagine having absolutely no words to communicate your need and no idea how to do anything. I've said this before to parents of babies when I was a curious teenager and they thought I'm being silly but I'm sure it actually is stressful. At the end of the day we all go through it and nobody remembers it though, so it's not worth worrying about, it's just interesting to think about.
You can actually watch the progression as the baby realizes "Wait, that's a thing you can do" through "I wonder if I can do that" to "darn it, it's not working" and finally to "wow I did it".
I remember listening to some NPR segment where a doctor/researcher said the first couple years is like a long acid trip. He was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it resonated with me.
I'm pretty sure it was an attempt to be humorous.
>constantly frustrated by their lack of agency.
Count me in.
Count me in.
[deleted]
> frustrated by their lack of agency
uh.. how do you know this? doubt they even know what agency is or lack of it means.
uh.. how do you know this? doubt they even know what agency is or lack of it means.
I can tell you 100% my toddler gets extremely frustrated when he can't do something by himself. And it wasn't a brusque development, babies get frustrated when they want to turn on the side and can't. Also, they're extremely joyful when they finally manage to do it on their own, and they'll do it constantly.
> doubt they even know what agency is
I doubt some people know what epicaricacy is, but they do it anyway.
> doubt they even know what agency is
I doubt some people know what epicaricacy is, but they do it anyway.
Observed behavior. It's not hard to recognize feelings in one's child if one pays close enough attention.
If we go a bit old-school on AI and reason in the "connectionist" framing:
Let's say neural memories are encoded in some high-dimensional vector space.
And so memory recall is an associative process that entails constructing a query vector and issuing it across the neural memory space.
And the brain is constantly learning, and that learning entails some changes in the structure of the high-dimensional memory space.
And let's say that re-encoding of a neural memory happens upon recall, and only upon recall.
Then it could be that all experience is in fact stored, but because of changes due to learning, those memories become inaccessible. The machinery constructing query vectors has updated its structure enough that its encoding of those query vectors is sufficiently dissimilar from the encoding of the stored memory vectors (which use the encoding from the last recall).
Let's say neural memories are encoded in some high-dimensional vector space.
And so memory recall is an associative process that entails constructing a query vector and issuing it across the neural memory space.
And the brain is constantly learning, and that learning entails some changes in the structure of the high-dimensional memory space.
And let's say that re-encoding of a neural memory happens upon recall, and only upon recall.
Then it could be that all experience is in fact stored, but because of changes due to learning, those memories become inaccessible. The machinery constructing query vectors has updated its structure enough that its encoding of those query vectors is sufficiently dissimilar from the encoding of the stored memory vectors (which use the encoding from the last recall).
Also known as "catastrophic interference" or "catastrophic forgetting" ... No all that catastrophic unless it balloons, but it's a name that stuck.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophic_interference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catastrophic_interference
We know there is massive prunning and "dropout" of brain connections during young age.
> The machinery constructing query vectors has updated its structure enough that its encoding of those query vectors is sufficiently dissimilar from the encoding of the stored memory vectors (which use the encoding from the last recall).
Wouldn't that result in very bizarre memories instead of no memories?
Wouldn't that result in very bizarre memories instead of no memories?
Not unless the brain does filtering (something we know for sure it does - psychedelics mess with this filter). I may be completely off the mark though
The brain is sufficiently complex that I'd expect gross distortions will get swept under the rug. You'd get either lightly distorted memories (dad is 18ft tall, mom's face is wrong, favorite toy lived in this spot instead of that one) or nothing at all. If a memory is totally corrupted, your brain won't give it to you because it doesn't pass your perceptive filters.
Children believe a lot of silly things that they "grow out" of thinking.
How sure are you that your childhood memories are accurate? How sure are you that you aren't simply conditioned to ignore distorted childhood memories?
Children believe a lot of silly things that they "grow out" of thinking.
How sure are you that your childhood memories are accurate? How sure are you that you aren't simply conditioned to ignore distorted childhood memories?
this appears to be more or less what happens. (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.ade6530)
On re-encoding memories as well:
https://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/35/12144
Oops, someone else posted this further down too. Great minds think alike!
https://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/35/12144
Oops, someone else posted this further down too. Great minds think alike!
I like this while including the brain regularly does “cleanup” of connections that it deems unnecessary and removes them.
I like this one
Cool
Doesn't really explain why it happens universally and why this doesn't happen after other major changes in lifestyle (people who move to a radically different country don't lose all memories of their life beforehand).
From the brain’s POV even a radically different country is like 99.9% the same as anywhere else on earth.
Sure, but is the difference between being 2 and 4 really that profound? It's not like the memories that are lost are just of the womb.
Have you spent a lot of time with children?
My 2 year old went on a mental breakdown of a temper tantrum last night because she saw an apple on the tv, decided it meant she wanted an apple, and couldn't understand why she could not have an apple despite seeing one on the tv just then! A toddler is still trying to understand how reality itself works.
A 4 year old knows that jumping off of the stairs onto tile is going to hurt. A 4 year old understands the apple on the tv is an apple on the tv and is not a physical apple in the house.
They are so far apart.
My 2 year old went on a mental breakdown of a temper tantrum last night because she saw an apple on the tv, decided it meant she wanted an apple, and couldn't understand why she could not have an apple despite seeing one on the tv just then! A toddler is still trying to understand how reality itself works.
A 4 year old knows that jumping off of the stairs onto tile is going to hurt. A 4 year old understands the apple on the tv is an apple on the tv and is not a physical apple in the house.
They are so far apart.
Obviously a 4 year old is much more together than a 2 year old. But we're talking about a fundamental difference so great that no memories can be preserved. That's a high bar.
Uhhh yes.
Age 2: Can point to their own body parts; hold something in one hand while doing something with the other hand
Age 4: Changes behavior based on where you are; can draw a person with more than 3 distinct body parts
There's a huuuge amount of learning that happens through this period. Your brain is learning things like 3-dimensional space, temperatures exist and I don't like some of them, I-have-two-arms, things fall when dropped, I must engage my big toe to stay upright while walking, other people appear to have feelings, other people appear to believe that I appear to have feelings.
And in any case, the difference between 2 and 4 is only relevant to the question of whether a 4 year old can remember being 2, not what this article is about, which is adults not remembering being <4.
Age 2: Can point to their own body parts; hold something in one hand while doing something with the other hand
Age 4: Changes behavior based on where you are; can draw a person with more than 3 distinct body parts
There's a huuuge amount of learning that happens through this period. Your brain is learning things like 3-dimensional space, temperatures exist and I don't like some of them, I-have-two-arms, things fall when dropped, I must engage my big toe to stay upright while walking, other people appear to have feelings, other people appear to believe that I appear to have feelings.
And in any case, the difference between 2 and 4 is only relevant to the question of whether a 4 year old can remember being 2, not what this article is about, which is adults not remembering being <4.
>There's a huuuge amount of learning that happens through this period. Your brain is learning things like 3-dimensional space, temperatures exist and I don't like some of them, I-have-two-arms, things fall when dropped, I must engage my big toe to stay upright while walking, other people appear to have feelings, other people appear to believe that I appear to have feelings.
Many of those things are completely innate. Walking for example, while people use the word "learn" in casual speech, is something that is innate. I just don't think the original comment is well-grounded in what we know about infant's cognition. And in any case, a 2 year old definitely understands 3D space.
Many of those things are completely innate. Walking for example, while people use the word "learn" in casual speech, is something that is innate. I just don't think the original comment is well-grounded in what we know about infant's cognition. And in any case, a 2 year old definitely understands 3D space.
... walking absolutely must be learned... They will automatically learn it without explicit teaching but indeed it must be learned. A child prevented from standing or walking for 5 years and then stood on their feet for the first time will not be able to walk.
That is simply not true. There are many cultures which greatly restrict infants' ability to move (e.g. traditional rural communities in Northern China or the Ache in Paraguay) and the children in these communities still learn how to walk. Not only that, but the basic neural mechanisms that are used in walking are innately specified (central pattern generators), not learnt (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09594...). Now, there is a degree of "fine-tuning" that is learnt that makes the walking more fluent and precise, but the basic principles of walking are innate.
One only needs to see a foal walking less than an hour after birth to be convinced of this.
Part of the problem is that humans are born so premature that people confuse natural maturation with learning. Just as we don't learn puberty, we don't learn how to walk.
One only needs to see a foal walking less than an hour after birth to be convinced of this.
Part of the problem is that humans are born so premature that people confuse natural maturation with learning. Just as we don't learn puberty, we don't learn how to walk.
Which cultures completely restrict their infants from attempting to walk?
Did you read the paper you linked? It describes all the immense amount of learning that actually happens: https://art.torvergata.it/retrieve/e291c0d4-b584-cddb-e053-3...
> One only needs to see a foal walking less than an hour after birth to be convinced of this.
Have you actually seen a foal walking? They are very visibly learning how to do it!
Did you read the paper you linked? It describes all the immense amount of learning that actually happens: https://art.torvergata.it/retrieve/e291c0d4-b584-cddb-e053-3...
> One only needs to see a foal walking less than an hour after birth to be convinced of this.
Have you actually seen a foal walking? They are very visibly learning how to do it!
>Which cultures completely restrict their infants from attempting to walk?
The ones I mentioned in my comment.
>Did you read the paper you linked? It describes all the immense amount of learning that actually happens.
Again, as I said, there is a degree of fine-tuning but the core mechanisms are innate.
Some examples:
> In particular, the core premotor components of locomotor circuitry mainly derive from a set of embryonic interneurons that are remarkably conserved across different species
>Detailed EMG recordings in chick embryos during the final week of incubation showed that the profiles of EMG activity during repetitive limb movements resemble those of locomotion at hatching
> In addition, human fetuses exhibit a rich repertoire of leg movements that includes single leg kicks, symmetrical double legs kicks, and symmetrical inter-limb alternation with variable phase.
I don't think you read the article, or else you think that "development" means learning.
>Have you actually seen a foal walking? They are very visibly learning how to do it!
They can walk right away, but they get better at it. It's innate, but you can fine-tune it. Like I said.
Another (impressive) example of an animal innately walking, this time to avoid predators immediately after hatching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3OjfK0t1XM
The ones I mentioned in my comment.
>Did you read the paper you linked? It describes all the immense amount of learning that actually happens.
Again, as I said, there is a degree of fine-tuning but the core mechanisms are innate.
Some examples:
> In particular, the core premotor components of locomotor circuitry mainly derive from a set of embryonic interneurons that are remarkably conserved across different species
>Detailed EMG recordings in chick embryos during the final week of incubation showed that the profiles of EMG activity during repetitive limb movements resemble those of locomotion at hatching
> In addition, human fetuses exhibit a rich repertoire of leg movements that includes single leg kicks, symmetrical double legs kicks, and symmetrical inter-limb alternation with variable phase.
I don't think you read the article, or else you think that "development" means learning.
>Have you actually seen a foal walking? They are very visibly learning how to do it!
They can walk right away, but they get better at it. It's innate, but you can fine-tune it. Like I said.
Another (impressive) example of an animal innately walking, this time to avoid predators immediately after hatching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3OjfK0t1XM
I think your definition of innate is counter to the common definition of innate. The common definition of innate is that there is no thought behind full understanding and capacity to perform- for example, snakes do not generally need to learn how to move without legs or how to open the mouth large enough to consume big food. There isn’t a try/fail cycle while they understand the capacities of their body. I fed my pet snake a baby quail for the first time in its life and it clearly had to learn how to eat it (tried and spat out the leg, wing, etc) even though the core mechanism of big mouth big swallow is there was clearly innate in it. Just because there is a core mechanism to walk existing in babies doesn’t mean the baby doesn’t still need to learn how to perform the behavior voluntarily, on command, consciously according to their own will.
What you just described for the baby applies equally to the snake. It's obviously difficult to neatly segment things into innate and non-innate, but the idea that walking is a matter of maturation rather than "learning" is the mainstream view among scientists and has been for a century.
Again, I conceded that you have to "fine-tune" to get good at walking. But the contrast that with say, playing golf. That's something that categorically has to be learnt, we don't see fetus practicing their drive in utero.
Again, I conceded that you have to "fine-tune" to get good at walking. But the contrast that with say, playing golf. That's something that categorically has to be learnt, we don't see fetus practicing their drive in utero.
They do not keep them tied till they are 5 years old.
That's just being pedantic. They also don't "learn" to walk if their legs are cut off.
No, that is actually exactly what I was describing. If it was innate, they wouldn't need to trial and error their way (i.e. learn) to proficiency. But indeed they do.
Your analogy was puberty, which in fact happens with development regardless of trial and error (i.e. learning).
The two developmental processes are clearly distinct. The distinction is that one is a process of learning and the other is not.
Your analogy was puberty, which in fact happens with development regardless of trial and error (i.e. learning).
The two developmental processes are clearly distinct. The distinction is that one is a process of learning and the other is not.
I'm talking about being able to walk, you're talking about being proficient. I've said repeatedly that fine-tuning to get better is not incompatible with innateness.
I wonder if it has to do with the snapshot timing resolution being asymptotically high when you have not yet experienced enough passage of time.
As you know we generally experience timescales logarithmically with age, i.e. your incremental experience of time is always compared in reference to dividing by the total passage of time experienced, which is why children tend to get bored much more quickly than adults, because waiting for ten minutes constitutes a much larger percentage of their current experienced life compared to that of an adult's proportion.
Since a baby/toddler has only experienced a tiny amount of time passage thus far, their tiny reference "yardstick" would result in their memory being snapshotted at an untenable timining resolution thanks to division-by-almost-zero. So perhaps the brain does some form of filtering to prevent the entirety of experienced memory being dominated by the super-early ages, or perhaps there is some equivalent of an overflow in their internal counter.
Keep in mind that the above are purely metaphorical as a functional description, and not to be treated as a literal hypothesis on the mechanistic operation of memory.
As you know we generally experience timescales logarithmically with age, i.e. your incremental experience of time is always compared in reference to dividing by the total passage of time experienced, which is why children tend to get bored much more quickly than adults, because waiting for ten minutes constitutes a much larger percentage of their current experienced life compared to that of an adult's proportion.
Since a baby/toddler has only experienced a tiny amount of time passage thus far, their tiny reference "yardstick" would result in their memory being snapshotted at an untenable timining resolution thanks to division-by-almost-zero. So perhaps the brain does some form of filtering to prevent the entirety of experienced memory being dominated by the super-early ages, or perhaps there is some equivalent of an overflow in their internal counter.
Keep in mind that the above are purely metaphorical as a functional description, and not to be treated as a literal hypothesis on the mechanistic operation of memory.
An interesting idea; although I think somewhat unlikely. This is one of those instances where I would assume the brain is doing something carefully calibrated. But it'd be easiest to just not record as many experiences for the first few years rather than do a complete flush.
My guess has always been there is some optimal approach to learning that works by developing a really basic schema (what does a person look like, which ones are mine, roughly how does this body thing work, etc) then flushing all the training data and starting again. I vaguely expect the machine learning people develop some sort of similar process where they get a lot of value lightly conditioning a model before sinking compute into doing a full train.
Basically, my wild guess is there is a lot to learn in a baby's first few experiences but the risk of mis-encoding the lessons is so high that the brain uses the data to bootstrap but then throws it out as too unreliable and starts again once it orients.
My guess has always been there is some optimal approach to learning that works by developing a really basic schema (what does a person look like, which ones are mine, roughly how does this body thing work, etc) then flushing all the training data and starting again. I vaguely expect the machine learning people develop some sort of similar process where they get a lot of value lightly conditioning a model before sinking compute into doing a full train.
Basically, my wild guess is there is a lot to learn in a baby's first few experiences but the risk of mis-encoding the lessons is so high that the brain uses the data to bootstrap but then throws it out as too unreliable and starts again once it orients.
> which is why children tend to get bored much more quickly than adults, because waiting for ten minutes constitutes a much larger percentage of their current experienced life compared to that of an adult's proportion
I think boredom is the brain's hunger more than its watch. It's about the needs of a developing brain, rather than plain time.
Right after the bulk of neurogenesis the brain goes into synaptic pruning where it strengthens some synapses and eliminates others. Developmental pruning is experience dependent and the scale of the process in childhood needs a lot of experiences to fuel it.
Those experiences are literal "food for thought". Building the body takes more food, building the brain takes more experiences.
I think boredom is the brain's hunger more than its watch. It's about the needs of a developing brain, rather than plain time.
Right after the bulk of neurogenesis the brain goes into synaptic pruning where it strengthens some synapses and eliminates others. Developmental pruning is experience dependent and the scale of the process in childhood needs a lot of experiences to fuel it.
Those experiences are literal "food for thought". Building the body takes more food, building the brain takes more experiences.
I disagree.
I think the brain compresses experiences.
If you had a routine of k activities every day you won't remember every instance of that routine but you may remember what the routine was.
I think the brain compresses experiences.
If you had a routine of k activities every day you won't remember every instance of that routine but you may remember what the routine was.
N of 1, but my experience doesn't fit with this common explanation. Big life changes, travel, having kids... none of it has done a thing to disrupt a steady progression to a point where (around age 40) a year feels about subjectively as long as maybe three months did in high school. Started being noticeable around age 25 IIRC, and time's done nothing but keep getting faster. This doesn't revert, at all, when things get shaken up, not even temporarily. It's still "you know that place we went the other day... oh, shit, that was six weeks ago".
Exactly what I was going to say. Go travel through strange lands for 3 months and compare the feeling of the passage of time to 3 months doing your normal routine.
I've always found two things interesting about memory. First, it often seems many more memories can be stored than recalled. This becomes apparent when you can't remember something to the point of being certain you've forgotten, only to later recall what you were trying to remember. (My definition of a good trivia question is one you can't answer until you're told the answer and you realize you knew all along.) And of course people who have the ability to apparently remember everything indicate memory capacity can be enormous.
Second, I've often thought I can correctly remember a scene from a movie or TV show I saw decades ago, but when I see it again I realize I got a tremendous number of details wrong, indicating that particular stored memory is very general in nature and not accurate at all.
Second, I've often thought I can correctly remember a scene from a movie or TV show I saw decades ago, but when I see it again I realize I got a tremendous number of details wrong, indicating that particular stored memory is very general in nature and not accurate at all.
Since LLMs/AI are all the rage these days - I also found a similar behavior with LLMs.
If I ask a difficult recall question (usually some very niche medical knowledge) it will get it wrong or just hallucinate. But if I ask it in the form of a multiple choice question, it often gets it right. If memory works better when prompted with the information this way - I wonder how similar LLMs and humans actually encode memory?
If I ask a difficult recall question (usually some very niche medical knowledge) it will get it wrong or just hallucinate. But if I ask it in the form of a multiple choice question, it often gets it right. If memory works better when prompted with the information this way - I wonder how similar LLMs and humans actually encode memory?
Re trivia, I often find myself thinking "I would have definitely gotten that if it was multiple choice".
I agree with your second paragraph too. I often think of a certain tone of voice or pacing with which a line was delivered, and it ends up being completely different when I rewatch it. And yet there are still Mandela Effect people out there insisting their memories are 100% infallible and it's more likely there's a global time travel conspiracy to change a dot on a KitKat package than that they misremembered something small.
I agree with your second paragraph too. I often think of a certain tone of voice or pacing with which a line was delivered, and it ends up being completely different when I rewatch it. And yet there are still Mandela Effect people out there insisting their memories are 100% infallible and it's more likely there's a global time travel conspiracy to change a dot on a KitKat package than that they misremembered something small.
I remember a few things from when I was a baby/toddler. The strongest memory is the confusion around why I was "me", since I was experiencing reality from my totally-subjective experience and I didn't understand why I wasn't someone else. Did all the other people around me have this similar sense of being themselves? Why am "I" trapped in myself? These concepts were scary to me and really distressing, and I didn't know how to talk yet, nor could I really understand anything yet, so it was extra scary and just super difficult to make sense of. To give a sense of what my age would have been, I remember experiencing this while being in a crib.
Later in life these same sensations evolved into pretty much nightly existential dread, and it's taken me decades of "I'm not thinking about this" to not have panic attacks about inexistence and the extreme temporariness of my self.
Due to my early life experiences I never really dismiss a baby crying as something inconsequential like "awww he's [hungry/tired/whatever]!" because for me I was often experiencing some really primal variation of existential terror before I could even speak.
Later in life these same sensations evolved into pretty much nightly existential dread, and it's taken me decades of "I'm not thinking about this" to not have panic attacks about inexistence and the extreme temporariness of my self.
Due to my early life experiences I never really dismiss a baby crying as something inconsequential like "awww he's [hungry/tired/whatever]!" because for me I was often experiencing some really primal variation of existential terror before I could even speak.
I have a few memories prior to being able to talk, they are visual memories that I confirmed with an older sibling (7 years older). He couldn't believe I could remember those things.
I also was thinking, perhaps all memories aren't visual or auditory, and I then I read your post. It's quite possible we all have memories of that time in our lives, but they are emotional in composition rather than comprised of physical senses.
Is the ability to recall something specifically a 'memory,' or could emotional feelings with seemingly no connection to the present also be considered memory? Like a lifetime of emotional deja vu.
When you recall something stressful, and you feel stress in the present, is that stress you are experiencing from the present as your brain processes a stressful scenario in your mind, or is that stress part of the memory, and your brain is re-experiencing that stress in the same way you can visualize a memory?
I also was thinking, perhaps all memories aren't visual or auditory, and I then I read your post. It's quite possible we all have memories of that time in our lives, but they are emotional in composition rather than comprised of physical senses.
Is the ability to recall something specifically a 'memory,' or could emotional feelings with seemingly no connection to the present also be considered memory? Like a lifetime of emotional deja vu.
When you recall something stressful, and you feel stress in the present, is that stress you are experiencing from the present as your brain processes a stressful scenario in your mind, or is that stress part of the memory, and your brain is re-experiencing that stress in the same way you can visualize a memory?
I don't think I've ever heard anybody put my exact feelings into words before. Although I don't feel distressed by the subjectivity of the experience as much as a feeling I can only describe as "odd". Why am I me? Not in a bad way, just, why am I seeing things from this specific point of view?
We’re all a different POV for the same experience/entity
I have snapshot memories from before the age of 1 that I can certifiably say aren't false (no photographic evidence, no external testimony, being able to recollect them regularly since infancy) and that can be pinpointed to that time due to specific details.
They become a continuous stream around age 2 and everything around age 3 starts being as clear as anything else.
In any case I've always found it interesting to have such a big delta with the people around me but not particularly significant until I seriously structured my introspection and got into cognitive behavioural therapy.
With the aid of psychedelics I've managed to re-experience with extreme clarity events that I remembered but didn't register as meaningful and gleaned a new understanding about that period. For example I've come to realize that as a toddler I was very aware of my surroundings, of myself, I had an overwhelming feeling of boredom and probably needed far more stimulation than kids that age ; hence behavioural patterns during adulthood that I previously couldn't explain.
In any case I've always found it interesting to have such a big delta with the people around me but not particularly significant until I seriously structured my introspection and got into cognitive behavioural therapy.
With the aid of psychedelics I've managed to re-experience with extreme clarity events that I remembered but didn't register as meaningful and gleaned a new understanding about that period. For example I've come to realize that as a toddler I was very aware of my surroundings, of myself, I had an overwhelming feeling of boredom and probably needed far more stimulation than kids that age ; hence behavioural patterns during adulthood that I previously couldn't explain.
have you ever had the experience of discovering evidence of your past activities, and remembering what you forgot you remembered?
example , peeling away a chip or two of a bad paint job on the closet wall, to discover, its covering a big scribble,.,. memories then smash the floodgates, and you vividly recall , marker in hand, self in awe, at the ^majic^ marker how it makes lines so readily.
example , peeling away a chip or two of a bad paint job on the closet wall, to discover, its covering a big scribble,.,. memories then smash the floodgates, and you vividly recall , marker in hand, self in awe, at the ^majic^ marker how it makes lines so readily.
Your experience is more or less my experience. I even know a person that remembers from well before being 1 year old. That person started speaking very early, maybe that's related to having early memories. Different people develop at different times. The ages in the articles are averages of their respective populations so these data points are offset, for example, by the daughters of a friend of mine that told me that they don't remember anything before being 5 or 6 years old.
Before 1 is kinda absent, but from 2 I can remember factual stuff pretty clearly (dramatic events, fun and less).
I have little patches being a little bit more than a feeling starting around 3, having reliable ones from 5 upwards. Having memories starting 1 sounds both amazing but also scary.
Yeah I'm always shocked that there's a general assumption that people don't remember things before the age of 5. I remember some things from 2 years old and everything is pretty clear from 3 onwards. I do assume this is a sign of advanced development.
Memories are notoriously unreliable, pliable, subject to induction etc. You may absolutely have retained memories from that age, but it's just as likely that someone told you and your turned it into a memory.
> You may absolutely have retained memories from that age, but it's just as likely that someone told you and your turned it into a memory.
I suppose this is possible, but I personally have many extremely detailed visual memories of places and events that happened well before I was five years old -- including memories that didn't involve anyone who could have reminded me of anything subsequently -- all of which are consistent directly with each other.
If I had any painting skills, I could paint you a picture of interior of the house I moved out of when I was 4, including furniture, appliances, artwork on the walls, even things like a green and yellow cardboard storage box that we had on a shelf in the living room.
When I encounter small bits of information from the same time and place, they always seem to corroborate my memories, e.g. finding notes my dad wrote, which I'd never read before, or finding a photo focusing on one object in a larger room.
This seems to indicate that on the whole, my memories are mostly accurate. Perhaps they were reinforced by conversations with family and varying other reminders, but I'm fairly certain that what was being reinforced were real memories in the first place.
I suppose this is possible, but I personally have many extremely detailed visual memories of places and events that happened well before I was five years old -- including memories that didn't involve anyone who could have reminded me of anything subsequently -- all of which are consistent directly with each other.
If I had any painting skills, I could paint you a picture of interior of the house I moved out of when I was 4, including furniture, appliances, artwork on the walls, even things like a green and yellow cardboard storage box that we had on a shelf in the living room.
When I encounter small bits of information from the same time and place, they always seem to corroborate my memories, e.g. finding notes my dad wrote, which I'd never read before, or finding a photo focusing on one object in a larger room.
This seems to indicate that on the whole, my memories are mostly accurate. Perhaps they were reinforced by conversations with family and varying other reminders, but I'm fairly certain that what was being reinforced were real memories in the first place.
No these are not things people told me about. I know that. I mean from 3 onwards there is a steady stream of them that I remember clearly in exactly the same way I remember other things. My memories from 2 are very few and far between but they're still not things anyone told me about. They're not things that are significant enough for people to relay to me. I remember things like, my dad pointing out a crane to me out the car window, being confused about someone's name. Someone telling me the word "plumber" has a b in it, which I just found totally wild. Waiting for the toilet at nursery. One time they brought cardboard boxes to nursery and getting to crawl around in them like a cat but being really pissed off with this girl who was terrorising me. Hiding in the attic conversion with my cousin because I was terrified of the hoover. Some kid bullying me for having a temporary tattoo in nursery. My mum took me to the turn of the millenium celebrations when I was 2 and wants me to remember that. She's tried to remind me a lot, I don't remember shit about it. I don't remember anything notable that people would talk about like my first day at school. I remember my 3rds birthday I guess that counts.
I'm very aware of this and tend to examine my own memory critically while trying to avoid reinforcing some preconception I might have about them. I can clearly remember, for example :
- The exact look and shape of my feeding bottle.
- Starting baby food and good it was. I still remember the taste of the carrot and apple stuff.
- Being in my crib before being able to walk, by myself, just looking around, waiting for time to pass.
- Sticking poop on the bars of said crib. Dunno why I did that. It seemed fun.
- Our first cat (died when I was a year and a half).
- Receiving my first and second Christmas presents.
- Being brought to work by my grandma when she was keeping me (she retired when I was 1).
- The layout of my grandmother's kitchen that was redone when I was two.
- The day we spent at an attraction park when I was two and puking all over my aunt.
- The cotton cloth my mother used to wrap my butt with (I hated synthetic diapers), with the blue motifs drawn on it.
- Being laid on my back and having my ass cleaned. I really enjoyed that.
- The exact flour plan of my house, my school, my nanny's house, all the faces of the kids there, some of their names. The layout of the village. I left this place a few months after turning 3 and never went back.
All that stuff is stuff that's not documented at all and stuff I've told my relatives about, not the other way around.
It brings back another memory, from when I was 7 or 8, but that only makes sense now : we were doing a trip with kids from another school, incidentally kids I had been to school with when I was 4. I remembered them pretty well and I was quite happy to meet again two kids that had been my best friends at that time. They didn't seem to remember me at all.
- The exact look and shape of my feeding bottle.
- Starting baby food and good it was. I still remember the taste of the carrot and apple stuff.
- Being in my crib before being able to walk, by myself, just looking around, waiting for time to pass.
- Sticking poop on the bars of said crib. Dunno why I did that. It seemed fun.
- Our first cat (died when I was a year and a half).
- Receiving my first and second Christmas presents.
- Being brought to work by my grandma when she was keeping me (she retired when I was 1).
- The layout of my grandmother's kitchen that was redone when I was two.
- The day we spent at an attraction park when I was two and puking all over my aunt.
- The cotton cloth my mother used to wrap my butt with (I hated synthetic diapers), with the blue motifs drawn on it.
- Being laid on my back and having my ass cleaned. I really enjoyed that.
- The exact flour plan of my house, my school, my nanny's house, all the faces of the kids there, some of their names. The layout of the village. I left this place a few months after turning 3 and never went back.
All that stuff is stuff that's not documented at all and stuff I've told my relatives about, not the other way around.
It brings back another memory, from when I was 7 or 8, but that only makes sense now : we were doing a trip with kids from another school, incidentally kids I had been to school with when I was 4. I remembered them pretty well and I was quite happy to meet again two kids that had been my best friends at that time. They didn't seem to remember me at all.
That's impressive, sadly I don't recall any such moments when I was less than 5 years old. Just curious do you recall if you kept visualizing these memories over the years and hence maybe you still remember them so far?
Yeah man, when people say "your brain just made that up", it's like, no, this is stuff that wasn't suggested or "generated" and is verifiable (I love how many examples you have!) .. I especially relate to the "being in the crib" one. It took me getting a bit older to realize just how little other people remembered from their earliest years. Even today I have an uncanny memory for people and their names. My memory isn't so great in other areas, but still. Interesting stuff.
Same here. We moved when I was four, so I know I have a lot of memories from before then, because they're set in locations I never went back to after the age of 4.
> They become a continuous stream around age 2 and everything around age 3 starts being as clear as anything else.
I'm pretty much exactly the same, with the same age thresholds. I remember every detail of the house my family moved out of a couple of months after my fourth birthday, including detailed memories of events that took place there during the two years prior.
I think a big factor might have been learning to read at around the age of two, possibly creating deep and regularly reinforced mnemonic links to my audiovisual recall.
> With the aid of psychedelics I've managed to re-experience with extreme clarity events that I remembered but didn't register as meaningful and gleaned a new understanding about that period.
Out of curiosity, what did you specifically do to trigger these "re-experiences"? Do you think doing this might have altered the sensory memories of your early experiences themselves?
I'm pretty much exactly the same, with the same age thresholds. I remember every detail of the house my family moved out of a couple of months after my fourth birthday, including detailed memories of events that took place there during the two years prior.
I think a big factor might have been learning to read at around the age of two, possibly creating deep and regularly reinforced mnemonic links to my audiovisual recall.
> With the aid of psychedelics I've managed to re-experience with extreme clarity events that I remembered but didn't register as meaningful and gleaned a new understanding about that period.
Out of curiosity, what did you specifically do to trigger these "re-experiences"? Do you think doing this might have altered the sensory memories of your early experiences themselves?
> I think a big factor might have been learning to read at around the age of two, possibly creating deep and regularly reinforced mnemonic links to my audiovisual recall.
That's very possible. Although it wouldn't explain much regarding me. I don't come from an educated family, my parents had me very young, they didn't know how to take care of children and for the most part left me to my own devices. I didn't learn any reading besides the letters of my own name before the age of 5.
> Out of curiosity, what did you specifically do to trigger these "re-experiences"? Do you think doing this might have altered the sensory memories of your early experiences themselves?
To be clear I wasn't specifically looking for this. At that time I had the general feeling that there was something that existed in my life, something I could feel the shape of, large but hidden behind a veil. Something that was in front of my eyes but that my conscious mind avoided. And I knew it was strongly linked with stuff I was trying to unravel in therapy. I was intent on getting to the bottom of it but kept bumping into an invisible wall.
So, one day, I just had the impulse to go on a deep and long DMT trip while being obsessed with that stuff in the background. Trying to follow the thread of what bothered me it brought me back to that moment in my life where my identity was still being formed. What's interesting, from what I can tell, is that the sensory content of the memory is unchanged. But what I got access to is the emotional and intellectual state I was in at the time which, in conjunction with my fully developed brain, made me able to understand a self that wasn't then able to understand itself. The way I see it, psychedelics are basically WD40 for the brain.
That's very possible. Although it wouldn't explain much regarding me. I don't come from an educated family, my parents had me very young, they didn't know how to take care of children and for the most part left me to my own devices. I didn't learn any reading besides the letters of my own name before the age of 5.
> Out of curiosity, what did you specifically do to trigger these "re-experiences"? Do you think doing this might have altered the sensory memories of your early experiences themselves?
To be clear I wasn't specifically looking for this. At that time I had the general feeling that there was something that existed in my life, something I could feel the shape of, large but hidden behind a veil. Something that was in front of my eyes but that my conscious mind avoided. And I knew it was strongly linked with stuff I was trying to unravel in therapy. I was intent on getting to the bottom of it but kept bumping into an invisible wall.
So, one day, I just had the impulse to go on a deep and long DMT trip while being obsessed with that stuff in the background. Trying to follow the thread of what bothered me it brought me back to that moment in my life where my identity was still being formed. What's interesting, from what I can tell, is that the sensory content of the memory is unchanged. But what I got access to is the emotional and intellectual state I was in at the time which, in conjunction with my fully developed brain, made me able to understand a self that wasn't then able to understand itself. The way I see it, psychedelics are basically WD40 for the brain.
I once hear the story of a colleague who when going to college met with someone who he felt that he knew although they were unable to establish were they knew each other from as they came from different cities. When he returned home and told the story to his mother, she smiled and told him that they as toddlers had met.
I have had this experience firsthand - I met someone at a party, and he was intensely familiar, despite me being on the far side of the planet from my usual haunts. We chatted, and it transpired quite rapidly that we had been neighbours and frequent playmates as toddlers in Hong Kong.
Having had a child of my own in the last few years, I would like to think I understand the phenomenon. When we lack comprehensive language, we do not store memories as narrative experiences as we do as adults, rather just as semantic connections and correlations. There have been more than a few occasions where I have been doing something like changing a diaper, rocking her to sleep, playing with her in the bath, and I have had the intense sensation of “I remember what this felt like” - not necessarily a specific instance, but rather a remembrance of sensation.
My earliest memories are from between one and two years of age, and I know that they are memories as they are things that my parents do not recall, and I have been able to verify, and I know when they are from as we left Hong Kong weeks after my second birthday.
I remember the father of the guy I reconnected with parading around his garden on stilts - my parents denied this ever happened, yet he confirmed his father was indeed into that at the time - and I remember the pigs and chickens under the houses in the squatter’s village near us - again, my parents insisted they had never taken me there - and they had not, but my au pair, who forty years on I reconnected with and asked, had.
There are other bits and bobs, glimpses, that I recall, but can’t say for sure aren’t implants.
Having had a child of my own in the last few years, I would like to think I understand the phenomenon. When we lack comprehensive language, we do not store memories as narrative experiences as we do as adults, rather just as semantic connections and correlations. There have been more than a few occasions where I have been doing something like changing a diaper, rocking her to sleep, playing with her in the bath, and I have had the intense sensation of “I remember what this felt like” - not necessarily a specific instance, but rather a remembrance of sensation.
My earliest memories are from between one and two years of age, and I know that they are memories as they are things that my parents do not recall, and I have been able to verify, and I know when they are from as we left Hong Kong weeks after my second birthday.
I remember the father of the guy I reconnected with parading around his garden on stilts - my parents denied this ever happened, yet he confirmed his father was indeed into that at the time - and I remember the pigs and chickens under the houses in the squatter’s village near us - again, my parents insisted they had never taken me there - and they had not, but my au pair, who forty years on I reconnected with and asked, had.
There are other bits and bobs, glimpses, that I recall, but can’t say for sure aren’t implants.
Once in college I had a girl stare at me for a while on a long distance bus (we were almost the only passengers in there). When I got home my mom told me her mom called her to ask if I was also on that bus - apparently we have spent a lot of time together as toddlers.
I had a psych professor with a similar story that she liked to share. Her prevailing hypothesis on why we don't remember our infancy was that there's typically little to no reason to recall it, so the memories either fade or morph into general feelings and emotions that often help form the bases of our early personalities.
I may be getting some of that wrong, too. I was not particularly engaged with that class since I was still a rather immature student, back then. I'm not saying I subscribe to her idea, but it's certainly interesting to think about.
I may be getting some of that wrong, too. I was not particularly engaged with that class since I was still a rather immature student, back then. I'm not saying I subscribe to her idea, but it's certainly interesting to think about.
In other words, you’ve forgotten the class for the same reasons you’ve forgotten being an infant.
I've read a hypothesis that it's because when you learn to speak, you remember things in a new way. You don't know how to access the memories you stored before you knew how to speak.
Absolutely - "Tree" is so much easier to file than the magic thing standing there before you.
I once was at a party where a friend brought a friend from another city, and I for some reason had this strong feeling that I knew her despite also knowing for certain that I'd never seen her before (I'm very good with remembering faces). Halfway through the evening, without us really talking before she suddenly asks me if we know each other somehow, because she feels like we've met before even though she's pretty confident that she hasn't. You can probably imagine how intriguing it was that both of us had the same experience! So obviously we have to know each other, right? But then as we try to figure out from where we might know each other, all we end up doing is firmly establishing that no, we really don't have any mutual friends or contacts or hobbies or anything that could connect us.
But after reading this comment and the responses to it I'm now realizing the city that she came from did happen to be the one where me and my parents lived for half a year when I was four, so maybe we went to the same kindergarten and were close friends at the time?
But after reading this comment and the responses to it I'm now realizing the city that she came from did happen to be the one where me and my parents lived for half a year when I was four, so maybe we went to the same kindergarten and were close friends at the time?
Your comment reminded me of the documentary "Three Identical
Strangers" [1], about identical triplets adopted by different families
during their first months of life who try to re-establish their
connection when they meet later by chance. It's a gripping story with
a shock ending. Somewhat relevant to this thread and I hope not too
much of a spoiler, it's suggested in the film that they may have been
affected by separation anxiety.
[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7664504/
[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7664504/
My mother was shocked when I recalled the bathroom tiles, layout and song she sang to me when I was a baby. There's no photos of the bathroom, it wasnt discussed as its refit was banal. The song she sang, she never mentioned to me past being a baby.
As an adult I have very good visual and audio memory, as well as perfect pitch. They're not as useful as they sound.
Make of that what you will.
As an adult I have very good visual and audio memory, as well as perfect pitch. They're not as useful as they sound.
Make of that what you will.
I absolutely have memories before 3, and I've always been frustrated when told I've recreated them from stories and/or pictures.
Heh. I've got memories from ages two and three that are pretty solid, and there were not photos or other records to prompt them. Some people really can do this. Some of my early memories were "filled in" by later experiences when I learned something that "explained" the earlier memory, and it was then reinforced, but the early memories are independent from the later ones.
My earliest memory was President Kennedy's assassination, but of course I had no idea of what a president was, life, death, etc. I was 16 months old. What I do remember was a bunch of strange people in and out of the house with the TV on and everyone very concerned, but what I remember most of that day was that it was the day I learned how to shake my crib and move it around the room while I was inside. I remember my parents not liking the fact that I was able to do that. I've never discussed that memory with them, and they're both gone now, so I never will.
I've got memories from when I barely knew how to talk, and didn't understand what the people around me were saying. My memory isn't good enough to decode what was said after I learned the language. I can clearly remember sitting in my high chair eating Alphabet cereal, and trying to make words with the letters I had not yet learned. I get sad when I think about how my parents would brush me off, probably thinking that I was too young to learn much. (My parents were both school teachers!)
My earliest memory was President Kennedy's assassination, but of course I had no idea of what a president was, life, death, etc. I was 16 months old. What I do remember was a bunch of strange people in and out of the house with the TV on and everyone very concerned, but what I remember most of that day was that it was the day I learned how to shake my crib and move it around the room while I was inside. I remember my parents not liking the fact that I was able to do that. I've never discussed that memory with them, and they're both gone now, so I never will.
I've got memories from when I barely knew how to talk, and didn't understand what the people around me were saying. My memory isn't good enough to decode what was said after I learned the language. I can clearly remember sitting in my high chair eating Alphabet cereal, and trying to make words with the letters I had not yet learned. I get sad when I think about how my parents would brush me off, probably thinking that I was too young to learn much. (My parents were both school teachers!)
Same. I'm always kind of shocked when people don't. My wife hardly remembers anything before she was 8.
We moved a couple months before I turned three and I have a bunch of memories that predate that. I remember being potty trained and lying to my parents about it so I could get a treat. I remember my dad coming home from the family farm and having injured his hand on some machinery. I remember stealing a pack of orange gum from the grocery store and chewing it all up underneath the piano in our basement. I could keep going and going.
My earliest memory was before I was two. Somewhere around 19-20 months. I know this because I had an ear infection and that's when it occurred. I'm sitting in my crib, crying due to the pain in my ear, and screaming "mom" at the door in the room. The room is mostly dark, but the door has been left open a crack to let in a little bit of light. From my vantage, looking through the slats in the crib, the door is open on the left. My mom comes in once, finally, and then leaves.
I also feel like I have an earlier one, being carried in a room which may have been my nursery, looking down on a changing table. I'm pretty sure I'm being held by my father, but I can't say for certain that this is real.
We moved a couple months before I turned three and I have a bunch of memories that predate that. I remember being potty trained and lying to my parents about it so I could get a treat. I remember my dad coming home from the family farm and having injured his hand on some machinery. I remember stealing a pack of orange gum from the grocery store and chewing it all up underneath the piano in our basement. I could keep going and going.
My earliest memory was before I was two. Somewhere around 19-20 months. I know this because I had an ear infection and that's when it occurred. I'm sitting in my crib, crying due to the pain in my ear, and screaming "mom" at the door in the room. The room is mostly dark, but the door has been left open a crack to let in a little bit of light. From my vantage, looking through the slats in the crib, the door is open on the left. My mom comes in once, finally, and then leaves.
I also feel like I have an earlier one, being carried in a room which may have been my nursery, looking down on a changing table. I'm pretty sure I'm being held by my father, but I can't say for certain that this is real.
Around 2 tends to be the earliest limits that have been confirmed.
Memory scientists don't claim that no memory persists from infancy, its just that it hasn't been confirmed, and there's lots of evidence of infants failing to remember events from months back in infant memory experimental paradigms, and highly plausible scenarios of memory reconstructions, from pictures, or from stories.
Absolutely no way to study this.
Let a 6 month old play with a green or red ball.
5 year later show the same two balls and say you will give the kid an ice cream if it picks the same color. Obviously give the ice cream no matter the pick ...
Look for correlation.
5 year later show the same two balls and say you will give the kid an ice cream if it picks the same color. Obviously give the ice cream no matter the pick ...
Look for correlation.
You do realise you've just recrated those memories from stories or pictures?
This being HN it was only a matter of time before someone found a way to shift the conversation to Rust.
Well played, sir, well played! :)
Well played, sir, well played! :)
I think it's time to rewrite the brain in Rust, making use of its memory safety features to prevent memory leaks
Rust does not prevent memory leaks.
No? Really? So what is the point? Why are people so crazy about Rust?
Yes.
> So what is the point?
What Rust helps with is memory safety, which is stuff like dangling pointers and use-after-free. Memory leaks are not a safety issue, they're an efficiency issue.
> Why are people so crazy about Rust?
The whole memory safety thing isn't actually the reason so many people love Rust. In the Rust 2024 community survey, 82% of users agreed that "Rust allows us to build relatively correct and bug free software." Memory safety is part of that, but there's a lot more to it.
So, for example, while Rust does not guarantee the lack of memory leaks, it does make them relatively hard to produce by accident in the first place. This is due to the intersection of a few different parts of Rust's overall design.
> So what is the point?
What Rust helps with is memory safety, which is stuff like dangling pointers and use-after-free. Memory leaks are not a safety issue, they're an efficiency issue.
> Why are people so crazy about Rust?
The whole memory safety thing isn't actually the reason so many people love Rust. In the Rust 2024 community survey, 82% of users agreed that "Rust allows us to build relatively correct and bug free software." Memory safety is part of that, but there's a lot more to it.
So, for example, while Rust does not guarantee the lack of memory leaks, it does make them relatively hard to produce by accident in the first place. This is due to the intersection of a few different parts of Rust's overall design.
I have heard that rust can cause tetanus, which is not good for the brain.
Rust itself cannot cause tetanus but it can include unsafe blocks which can activate tetanus spores by FFI.
You wouldn't know the difference.
I also sometimes have memories before 3, but mostly I am sleeping.
However, on rare occasion, people send me pictures where I am awake at 3, but I have no memories.
Sorry folks, I see myself out, that was inappropriate, I hope nobody will remember.
However, on rare occasion, people send me pictures where I am awake at 3, but I have no memories.
Sorry folks, I see myself out, that was inappropriate, I hope nobody will remember.
I'm with you. My earliest memory is from my second birthday. Not many, if any, other memories from that early though
How do you know that is where you got the memory? Early birthdays can be tricky because it is common for families to record them on video and if you saw such a video a few years later that could create a memory that you would think was from the birthday itself.
Personally I don't trust most memories I have from before around 4 because my parents had around 20 reels of home movies from that time and I know that I saw several of those movies a few years later.
Personally I don't trust most memories I have from before around 4 because my parents had around 20 reels of home movies from that time and I know that I saw several of those movies a few years later.
We didnt have anything to film with & there are no pictures from that day.
I remember only a specific moment: we went to pick up my grandpa and i recall the shirt he was wearing very precisely.
I can’t guarantee that the memory is genuine, but it is very specific and I had to reconstruct my age from discussing the memory with my mom.
I can’t guarantee that the memory is genuine, but it is very specific and I had to reconstruct my age from discussing the memory with my mom.
I fell off a countertop and got a concussion when I was 2.5, it's a very vivid and painful memory. I also moved to a different state when I was 5.
I have a very clear delineation of before and after the age of 5, and I have hundreds of memories from before the move. Most are rather intense events, but I even remember the layout of my house, construction sites, my daycare, neighbors, friends houses, holidays, first bike ride, first lizard I caught, my pets, even some dreams I had, etc...
I didn't have a good idea of time yet, but I can retroactively tell when things occurred based on facts I later learned, like when certain neighbors moved, even my sister was born, etc...
I have a very clear delineation of before and after the age of 5, and I have hundreds of memories from before the move. Most are rather intense events, but I even remember the layout of my house, construction sites, my daycare, neighbors, friends houses, holidays, first bike ride, first lizard I caught, my pets, even some dreams I had, etc...
I didn't have a good idea of time yet, but I can retroactively tell when things occurred based on facts I later learned, like when certain neighbors moved, even my sister was born, etc...
When was the last time you updated your brain OS? My rememberory format changes every couple of years.
Because — and this is true — you absolutely don’t.
You can be continue to be frustrated being incorrect, or you can accept that you’re lying to yourself and move on.
It’s that easy. Human memory just doesn’t work like that.
You can be continue to be frustrated being incorrect, or you can accept that you’re lying to yourself and move on.
It’s that easy. Human memory just doesn’t work like that.
You can't know that.
I had memories as a toddler that I confirmed after meeting my mother for the first time in decades a couple of years ago. Specific things about where I lived, events that had happened and how someone else in our family had died. I had another conversation with an aunt that confirmed other things, including a word from another language that I knew from when I was little but didn't realize wasn't a made up word.
Memory is fallible and we have an imperfect understanding of it, but I know for a fact from personal experience that people can remember events from very early in life if the emotional impact is deep enough.
I had memories as a toddler that I confirmed after meeting my mother for the first time in decades a couple of years ago. Specific things about where I lived, events that had happened and how someone else in our family had died. I had another conversation with an aunt that confirmed other things, including a word from another language that I knew from when I was little but didn't realize wasn't a made up word.
Memory is fallible and we have an imperfect understanding of it, but I know for a fact from personal experience that people can remember events from very early in life if the emotional impact is deep enough.
I have the same experience confirming memories with my parents. A few years ago they finally got garbage pick up service again and mentioned it to me.(Tiny area, roughly 1,000 people, so that service was not feasible until recently.) To which I replied, "Oh yeah, it's been like, 30 years since you last had it." They asked how I knew that. "I remember you carrying me up the driveway to drop the dirty diapers in the bin." They were both surprised that I remembered that and could confirm it.
However, the time that a giant plate glass mirror fall off a wall at a department store and crashed through me when I was about two years old? No idea. My parents had to tell me about that one later in life.
However, the time that a giant plate glass mirror fall off a wall at a department store and crashed through me when I was about two years old? No idea. My parents had to tell me about that one later in life.
Ontologically, you can not say that definitively, you can only say that op's claim is highly unlikely. Only OP knows what OP knows and no amount of theory can disprove it, nor can any theory lay greater claim to ontological accuracy than he can.
> Only OP knows what OP knows and no amount of theory can disprove it,
This isn't true either. Memories themselves are non-falsifiable. So no matter what we either side says we'll literally never know the truth.
This isn't true either. Memories themselves are non-falsifiable. So no matter what we either side says we'll literally never know the truth.
One side says, "I remember this thing from when I was 1 year old".
Another says, "You cannot remember it, you must have reconstructed it from being told or from pictures."
The memory itself can certainly be falsified: if you remember your mom using an iPhone in 1998, then that memory is false. If you remember talking to your uncle but he died before you were born, the memory is false.
How do we know if the origin of the "memory" is the person's actual experience, or their imagination of it based on descriptions or pictures?
Well if it's an event that had pictures taken of it, if it's the kind of event which grown-ups talk about, then the simplest explanation is that it was reconstructed.
But my son, almost 5, is always coming out with random things that happened when he was 1 or 2, which are absolutely of no importance to us, and which we would have forgotten long ago if he didn't keep remembering them. Once, for example, my wife put a pair of his shoes on top of the car while she put him in the car seat, forgot they were there, and drove off -- obviously at some point they fell of and were completely lost. Every six months or so my son talks about that incident completely unprompted -- something of absolutely no significance to us, but obviously something that struck him. And about the time I lost my temper and sprayed him in the face with water -- definitely not a memory I'm eager to revisit and bring up.
Someone dogmatic person may still say, "You must be bringing that up yourself somehow." That is certainly an unfalsifiable assertion -- there's no way, other than my assertion and probability, to prove that I'm haven't talking about those shoes on a regular basis. But I think any person with an open mind is likely to agree that "he's remembering them" is a more likely scenario than "the grownups are talking about those lost shoes all the time".
Probably these "revisitations" are his brain's way of refreshing the memory as his brain grows, which probably means the memory as they exist in his brain will have been shifted over the years. But that's still an original memory -- that's how adult memories work as well.
If at any point he misses a "refresh", they'll probably be gone; but the memories he manages to do this for will probably stay with him into adulthood. If at any point he "misses" a refresh, they'll probably be gone forever.
The flip side of this, of course, is that many of the memories we think we have as adults are heavily edited too. A few years ago someone recounted to me an emotional conversation that they'd had with someone on their deathbed (as an adult, only a few years prior to that). As it happens, I was in the other room when this conversation happened, and my memory of that conversation was significantly different. Obviously at least one of us is "remembering" something untrue. As I had little "skin in the game" about the content of the conversation, and the memory this person has seems to me very consistent with this person's narrative about their life, I'm inclined to think my memory is more accurate. But who can tell.
Another says, "You cannot remember it, you must have reconstructed it from being told or from pictures."
The memory itself can certainly be falsified: if you remember your mom using an iPhone in 1998, then that memory is false. If you remember talking to your uncle but he died before you were born, the memory is false.
How do we know if the origin of the "memory" is the person's actual experience, or their imagination of it based on descriptions or pictures?
Well if it's an event that had pictures taken of it, if it's the kind of event which grown-ups talk about, then the simplest explanation is that it was reconstructed.
But my son, almost 5, is always coming out with random things that happened when he was 1 or 2, which are absolutely of no importance to us, and which we would have forgotten long ago if he didn't keep remembering them. Once, for example, my wife put a pair of his shoes on top of the car while she put him in the car seat, forgot they were there, and drove off -- obviously at some point they fell of and were completely lost. Every six months or so my son talks about that incident completely unprompted -- something of absolutely no significance to us, but obviously something that struck him. And about the time I lost my temper and sprayed him in the face with water -- definitely not a memory I'm eager to revisit and bring up.
Someone dogmatic person may still say, "You must be bringing that up yourself somehow." That is certainly an unfalsifiable assertion -- there's no way, other than my assertion and probability, to prove that I'm haven't talking about those shoes on a regular basis. But I think any person with an open mind is likely to agree that "he's remembering them" is a more likely scenario than "the grownups are talking about those lost shoes all the time".
Probably these "revisitations" are his brain's way of refreshing the memory as his brain grows, which probably means the memory as they exist in his brain will have been shifted over the years. But that's still an original memory -- that's how adult memories work as well.
If at any point he misses a "refresh", they'll probably be gone; but the memories he manages to do this for will probably stay with him into adulthood. If at any point he "misses" a refresh, they'll probably be gone forever.
The flip side of this, of course, is that many of the memories we think we have as adults are heavily edited too. A few years ago someone recounted to me an emotional conversation that they'd had with someone on their deathbed (as an adult, only a few years prior to that). As it happens, I was in the other room when this conversation happened, and my memory of that conversation was significantly different. Obviously at least one of us is "remembering" something untrue. As I had little "skin in the game" about the content of the conversation, and the memory this person has seems to me very consistent with this person's narrative about their life, I'm inclined to think my memory is more accurate. But who can tell.
This matches my experience also. Kids can "juggle" some of these extremely early memories into more permanent memories but the vast majority are dropped. It's only because of the early and possible frequent recall that the memories end up winning their mythic permanence.
OP only knows it if OP can verify having memories from that age. People can be wrong about their memories. Memory fabrication does happen.
I'd go as far as saying, memory fabrication happens all the time - we recompute our memories when we reference them, and that result is affected by all the other experiences and memories we accumulated between subsequent recalls. Or, in other words, humans always confabulate (in the exact same sense as LLMs "always hallucinate", and I'm invoking this comparison on purpose) - the difference between "correct" and "false" memory is a matter of degree.
This.
I genuinely do have at least one memory from the age of two, because it was a completely banal event that no one told stories about (my grandmother moved to a new office, lol), nor certainly photographed, that I (because I remembered it) assumed had taken place when I was three. Turns out (crowd-sourced family chronology agreed, and documentary proof later corroborated) took place either 5 or 6 months after I turned two. (Memories differed as to the exact month, and the earliest letter we had was from the corroboratory year, but from a couple of months after when she would have moved.)
The matter came up because some time when I was in my twenties I said, apro pos of something or other, "[grandma] moved to [office] in year X", and they said "No, it was year X-1", and I said "well how come I remember [mundane sense-memory detail], if I was only two?" And they said, "yeah, [detail] is correct, but it was definitely year X-1", rinse-repeat, until they set out to prove me wrong about the year, which it turned out I was, which was a win for them, but then both I and my aunt with PhD in child-development were forced to conclude that I had a memory from when I was two.
Yeah. It blew my mind, too. I didn't think human memory worked like that, either.
Something-something only a Sith deals in absolutes. Alternatively, don't be such a jerk to that other guy. It's not really within the HN ethos.
The matter came up because some time when I was in my twenties I said, apro pos of something or other, "[grandma] moved to [office] in year X", and they said "No, it was year X-1", and I said "well how come I remember [mundane sense-memory detail], if I was only two?" And they said, "yeah, [detail] is correct, but it was definitely year X-1", rinse-repeat, until they set out to prove me wrong about the year, which it turned out I was, which was a win for them, but then both I and my aunt with PhD in child-development were forced to conclude that I had a memory from when I was two.
Yeah. It blew my mind, too. I didn't think human memory worked like that, either.
Something-something only a Sith deals in absolutes. Alternatively, don't be such a jerk to that other guy. It's not really within the HN ethos.
You are way over confident. I definitely have memories from 2 onwards and I know I remember them because I remember relaying them to people at age 4 onwards, by which point my memory was very well formed.
I am mid-40s and have several distinct memories from 2.
I have a rather traumatic memory of crying endlessly while I was getting a professional photo taken, I was less than 2 years old.
I believe you. I have a few memories around my second birthday. People are often impressed with my recall of people and places. I have reasons to believe because of corroborations later in life that my memories were true.
One of the most ridiculous comments I've ever seen on HN, and that's saying something.
I absolutely have memories of when my father's dog attacked me at the age of 11 months old.
And the scars.
And the scars.
I have lots of memories from 1yo on.
I will say that my strong early memories are of things that were either very positive or very negative.
Any scientist studying memory who doesn't have early memories just has a bad memory.
I will say that my strong early memories are of things that were either very positive or very negative.
Any scientist studying memory who doesn't have early memories just has a bad memory.
Why do you think you know that? How would you know if you were wrong?
The earliest memory I have, that I actually consider a memory and not just a weird dream, is a sensation of feeling very warm and comfortable and then suddenly feeling very cold and upset and wanting to go back to the warm place. I'd like to say this was a memory from when I was born, but I honestly have no clue when this happened as I couldn't see anything. I think the reason this memory stuck with me was just the stark contrast between "this is nice" to "this sucks, put me back".
I have a 10 days old baby, and this comment resonates a lot with the experience of bathing him.
He is very calm and seems to appreciate the experience, until it's time to get out of it.
We do our best to keep him warm and heat the room, but it does not seem to ever be enough to ease the ending.
He is very calm and seems to appreciate the experience, until it's time to get out of it.
We do our best to keep him warm and heat the room, but it does not seem to ever be enough to ease the ending.
I'm curious - could you describe one of the weird dreams your had from earlier then this? It'd be interesting to know.
Same here! My wife did some research recently and it seems like some people really have a memory of this sensation
My earliest memory is about awareness of conscience and memory.
I remember laying in bed, my diapers being changed, I don't know who was doing it or what the room looked like at the time, but I remember that there was nothing before that, and that on following days I thought back to that moment with the conviction that it was important for me to remember that specific moment, since it was the first for me.
I remember laying in bed, my diapers being changed, I don't know who was doing it or what the room looked like at the time, but I remember that there was nothing before that, and that on following days I thought back to that moment with the conviction that it was important for me to remember that specific moment, since it was the first for me.
I have a similar experience. "A conviction to remember". I was a bit older though and playing with my toys.
Same awakening moment happened to me. I was in the edge of a big bed and I was not able to move. And there were (our) wardrops on the other side of the room (later they were moved out). I remember that there was notning much to remember before that and I realized that I was small and new in this world.
you prbly just made an educated guess
Maybe the issue is that at that age we haven’t yet learned compressions for our memories. Maybe at that age our best option would be storing something closer to raw experience because we don’t know enough about the world. Eg we might remember a chair as “brown, lots of orthogonal lines, about my size” rather than using our experience of other chairs.
Yeah, I think the first chair we observe is the template for recognizing other chairs later. Surely that 'seed' chair will undergo substantial revision in time as we become aware that it wasn't the ideal basis on which to base our modeling of all chairs to come, and we unconsciously 'normalize' the model for chair in our head (and adjust that memory too).
It stands to reason that this happens to all of the baseline models for the referents we learn (nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc) that subsequent learning surely reshapes.
This is likely comparable to the revision of 'concept' clusters that goes on in all unsupervised learning NN models, especially in humans, those that arise pre-linguistically (since words surely provide landmarks to memories enabling future retrieval). Perhaps we rewrite our early word2vec tables, making early memories less retrievable.
It stands to reason that this happens to all of the baseline models for the referents we learn (nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc) that subsequent learning surely reshapes.
This is likely comparable to the revision of 'concept' clusters that goes on in all unsupervised learning NN models, especially in humans, those that arise pre-linguistically (since words surely provide landmarks to memories enabling future retrieval). Perhaps we rewrite our early word2vec tables, making early memories less retrievable.
One of my earliest memories is not of an actual event/place but of a nightmare I had. Given the tendency to forget dreams very quickly I've always wondered how common retaining memories of dreams from early childhood is - eg I've never heard anyone else mention this when talking about early memories.
I have memories of my first dream or an early dream. Everything was white and bright, and I was just there, naked, with my younger sister. I’m guessing I was 2 or 3 yrs old.
I woke up and was very scared by what I had experienced.
I woke up and was very scared by what I had experienced.
I do have memories of a nightmare from age 4-5, but it was a recurring nightmare.
For something incredible, read about the methods developed by some Hungarian child psychologists to strengthen the bond to children even before they are born: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/mono/10.4324/97810033318...
I can't remember the vast majority of stuff before I was 2-3 but I remember seeing my younger sibling when they were bought home, there's less than a year between us. And I can remember a few other things earlier, they they are definitely fuzzier.
I had an illness as a child which meant I was in and out of hospital for a while. I have a few very fuzzy memories from this time. The earliest, I think, was when my grandparents had come to the hospital. All I can remember is the feeling of the situation. They were all worried. I'm not even sure if I could talk at the time. I'm certain this memory is real because nobody has ever talked about this; it's not really a notable event for anyone else involved.
I also remember getting transported to Great Ormond Street in the night. I remember going in the back of a strange car (taxi? Hospital transport?) with a tartan blanket. I also remember being given a suppository, something that I didn't believe was actually real until about 20 years later (people don't really talk about them).
But I can't remember at all whether my siblings were there or not. I'm 2-3 years older than my brothers but in my memory they were just always there.
I also remember getting transported to Great Ormond Street in the night. I remember going in the back of a strange car (taxi? Hospital transport?) with a tartan blanket. I also remember being given a suppository, something that I didn't believe was actually real until about 20 years later (people don't really talk about them).
But I can't remember at all whether my siblings were there or not. I'm 2-3 years older than my brothers but in my memory they were just always there.
> it's not really a notable event for anyone else involved.
I’m sorry but, what? You think your extended family visiting a child in a hospital due to illness was not a notable event for them?
> They were all worried.
As a parent I can assure you it was a notable event, or no one would have been there, and they would not have been worried.
I’m sorry but, what? You think your extended family visiting a child in a hospital due to illness was not a notable event for them?
> They were all worried.
As a parent I can assure you it was a notable event, or no one would have been there, and they would not have been worried.
Erm... OK, but I've actually, you know, talked to my parents about this during the decades since. Nobody remembers this particular event because it was one night out of weeks of things getting bad, then worse, before finally getting better. This was almost certainly not the only time the grandparents visited, but it's the only one I remember.
Adults' memories don't just play out like a recording either. They remember many other details that wouldn't have been shared with me even if I could have understood it.
Adults' memories don't just play out like a recording either. They remember many other details that wouldn't have been shared with me even if I could have understood it.
I also believe I have several distinct memories from around 1 or 2, but it's not clear that they are real and not just confabulations. I probably have bigger gaps in primary school, things faded away.
Frustratingly, a lot of what we think are memories are in fact: us remembering remembering.
Human memory is increasingly fallible with time because of this.
It's like playing chinese whispers with our own recollection, everything is a copy of a copy of a copy.
It makes sense that you would remember distinct events, but the trouble here is that nearly all memory as you so eloquently described, is "just confabulations"- which feels wrong instinctively, until it's challenged scientifically.
Human memory is increasingly fallible with time because of this.
It's like playing chinese whispers with our own recollection, everything is a copy of a copy of a copy.
It makes sense that you would remember distinct events, but the trouble here is that nearly all memory as you so eloquently described, is "just confabulations"- which feels wrong instinctively, until it's challenged scientifically.
I have some pretty intense trauma in my life that I can recall extremely vividly even though i have little memory of the weeks surrounding the event. Often when I don't even want to. Certain memories are true memories.
Some fact or visual memory is as that, but our memories are also made up of sensory sensations and emotional states, and combinations abound. In fact, a big part of what makes PTSD is a split off different aspects of a remembered event because it’s so difficult to process the whole experience. This takes place after a traumatic event, during attempts at memory consolidation.
Also traumatic memory seems to be stored differently than day to day memory, which helps explain that triggers and flashbacks are valid and real (for traumatized ppl), while the confabulation effect can also exist. Though I’d note that confabulation can happen but that doesn’t mean it “overwrites” the old memory, or that confabulation is in any way more common than just remembering a part or a whole event.
Also traumatic memory seems to be stored differently than day to day memory, which helps explain that triggers and flashbacks are valid and real (for traumatized ppl), while the confabulation effect can also exist. Though I’d note that confabulation can happen but that doesn’t mean it “overwrites” the old memory, or that confabulation is in any way more common than just remembering a part or a whole event.
I remember a handful of insanely specific things from this age that I've since verified with my parents - I generally don't seem to misremember or fabricate memories. That being said there are a _lot_ of things that I require prompting via photo or video to remember and probably 90% of my life from that time is unrecoverable. I vividly recall random moments from family functions and some intense nightmares but the family dog, for instance, is a complete black hole. Weird stuff.
Primary school is still knocking around but I think I (and many others) suppress it to retain their sanity in adulthood :-P
Primary school is still knocking around but I think I (and many others) suppress it to retain their sanity in adulthood :-P
I have some from "shorter than a table" age (I can no longer rember even which year), which later turned out to have been dreams from before I knew the difference between them and reality.
im fascinated by the idea that good memory is a sign of low intelligence. it started when i saw that video of apes being made to play memory games in a lab. they have insane, super-human photographic memory. when they are exposed to a pattern on a screen for a fraction of a second they are able to recreate the pattern… large complicated patterns that look like noise to a human. so i think of forgetfulness as a feature not a bug. the more intellect you have, the more your brain tries to focus your mental resources onto a smaller and smaller area.
i could never remember a lot far back until an incident caused some more recent years to disapear from memory. now i have some memories of when i was a baby but not from my teenagw years. i think its all in there, paging it in is just practically impossible to do on demand. maybe some people can do it though..
What you’re describing is dissociation, if you’re looking for a word! Its effects are not as well known and it’s under-appreciated how common it is. Plus having 3 different societal definitions really makes the concept difficult to talk about.
I’ve done a lot of work on this myself and one can connect with one’s parts, if that model seems accurate to you.
I’ve done a lot of work on this myself and one can connect with one’s parts, if that model seems accurate to you.
I had a similar experience when deeply intoxicated, I saw a shadow that reminded me of the texture of the wallpaper in the first home I grew up in -- it unlocked a cascade of memories from my early childhood (I must have been 2) that I never would have been able to recall otherwise. But I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday.
Another fun one on this example is somebody after coming out of a coma being effectively fluent in a foreign language. Obviously the person had to have at least some familiarity with it before, but there are countless cases where somebody goes from knowing a few words of a language (presumably having forgotten everything they learned in school or whatever) to suddenly speaking it, more or less, fluently. Similar incidents can also completely change a person's accent and have other such interesting effects.
There's almost certainly some way to tap into this without (what is usually/always) brain damage, which has interesting implications for the long-term future of education.
There's almost certainly some way to tap into this without (what is usually/always) brain damage, which has interesting implications for the long-term future of education.
Your page-swap analogy is apt and razor sharp. Well done.
Do remember some from when we were in
Florida; since we moved to Tennessee when
I was 5, those memories were from <= 5!
Memories:
(1) In a few seconds older brother taught me to ride a bicycle: He put me on his bicycle and held me up as I turned the pedals. He kept saying he was holding me up as I kept pedaling and he was > 10 feet back of me!
(2) Mom made eggnog! Last I ever had!
(3) Brother and I got 'twin' beds, with headboards, foot boards, and posts!
(4) Dad took a lantern, some dough balls, a net, and a big wash tub to the coast and returned with the tub full of shrimp!
(5) One baby sitter was really nice -- still remember her smile!
(6) Shela next door was my age, and we played. When her family moved to Milwaukee, I said "When I grow up I'm going to 'Wilwaukee' and marry Shela!"
Memories:
(1) In a few seconds older brother taught me to ride a bicycle: He put me on his bicycle and held me up as I turned the pedals. He kept saying he was holding me up as I kept pedaling and he was > 10 feet back of me!
(2) Mom made eggnog! Last I ever had!
(3) Brother and I got 'twin' beds, with headboards, foot boards, and posts!
(4) Dad took a lantern, some dough balls, a net, and a big wash tub to the coast and returned with the tub full of shrimp!
(5) One baby sitter was really nice -- still remember her smile!
(6) Shela next door was my age, and we played. When her family moved to Milwaukee, I said "When I grow up I'm going to 'Wilwaukee' and marry Shela!"
We attach our early memories to our concept of the world as it was then. Afterwards, our concept of the world changes. As a result, those old memories sort of become dangling pointers. They refer to a world model that no longer exists in our minds.
Yes, it's like not being able to remember your dreams, or things when you're too drunk.
> it's like not being able to remember your dreams
That's just aggressive garbage collection happening when you wake up, arguably so you don't risk confusing dreams and reality :-)
But you can somewhat partially work around it by taking notes right after waking up, before doing anything else.
That's just aggressive garbage collection happening when you wake up, arguably so you don't risk confusing dreams and reality :-)
But you can somewhat partially work around it by taking notes right after waking up, before doing anything else.
And as an infant our world was incredibly smaller than our world is now. Surely the 'principal components' of that day were reshaped or subsumed by other pointers later, thereby shifting the landmarks used to retrieve memories.
I would hazard a guess that the original pointers aren't revised to point nowhere, but are, if possible, moved to point into the revised reference model. (Presumably we do this now when we learn a new domain like music, and as the model for harmony becomes more concrete, our original pointers to elements within it are adjusted rather than lost.)
I would hazard a guess that the original pointers aren't revised to point nowhere, but are, if possible, moved to point into the revised reference model. (Presumably we do this now when we learn a new domain like music, and as the model for harmony becomes more concrete, our original pointers to elements within it are adjusted rather than lost.)
I think it happens to a certain extent, if we do as the article says, and revisit our memories. We then probably reinterpret our memories in the context of our new and updated understanding of the world.
In other cases I believe it’s quite possible that our understanding of the world, say at age two, is so radically different from our adult understanding, that the old memories don’t even make any sense in the new context. They can’t be remapped in any meaningful manner.
In other cases I believe it’s quite possible that our understanding of the world, say at age two, is so radically different from our adult understanding, that the old memories don’t even make any sense in the new context. They can’t be remapped in any meaningful manner.
> Babies are also almost completely unable to move around by themselves and are constantly frustrated by their lack of agency. They are extremely vulnerable and utterly dependent on the kindness of their parents and other older humans in their environment. They lack language so have no other way of communicating than screaming, which is often also a cause of great distress because of an inability to communicate a basic need (and on that note, even knowing what those needs are half of the time, given that the ability to make sense of ones own senses is still being developed).
While mine did certainly scream when they were hungry (or annoyed, or bored, or I picked the wrong red crayon, etc.), they also had non-screaming verbal communication.
Both my kids started "talking" very early (I wanna say within the first or, at most, second month of being born, but "and we'll remember this when we are old and ancient though the specifics might be vague". In any case, definitely while babies), it's just that we (obviously?) didn't understand them. But they had a very definite "language" of different sounds, which was also different between them if we compare it.
Screaming is a good way for babies to get attention, but it's certainly not the only one!
While mine did certainly scream when they were hungry (or annoyed, or bored, or I picked the wrong red crayon, etc.), they also had non-screaming verbal communication.
Both my kids started "talking" very early (I wanna say within the first or, at most, second month of being born, but "and we'll remember this when we are old and ancient though the specifics might be vague". In any case, definitely while babies), it's just that we (obviously?) didn't understand them. But they had a very definite "language" of different sounds, which was also different between them if we compare it.
Screaming is a good way for babies to get attention, but it's certainly not the only one!
I have a 10 days-old baby and I've learned a lot about their communication lately.
It is true that there are many other cues, like opening their mouth, trying to suck or lick anything around. My son gets agitated in his sleep quite some time before he actually starts to scream.
Interestingly, in many languages it is very common (or even normal) to say that a baby is "crying". But babies are not actually crying. There is no tear or sadness involved. It's a primitive form of communication, aimed at signaling a need and creating a sense of urgency to caregivers, but it's different from crying.
I'm still very new to this, but there are also different nuances and pitches within their communication. "I am hungry" and "I am too cold and that makes me feel in danger" are notably different and achieves to communicate a very different sense of urgency.
It is true that there are many other cues, like opening their mouth, trying to suck or lick anything around. My son gets agitated in his sleep quite some time before he actually starts to scream.
Interestingly, in many languages it is very common (or even normal) to say that a baby is "crying". But babies are not actually crying. There is no tear or sadness involved. It's a primitive form of communication, aimed at signaling a need and creating a sense of urgency to caregivers, but it's different from crying.
I'm still very new to this, but there are also different nuances and pitches within their communication. "I am hungry" and "I am too cold and that makes me feel in danger" are notably different and achieves to communicate a very different sense of urgency.
Sounds like you’re doing great and picking up a lot from your little one already. Congratulations to you all. It’s extremely rewarding.
The technical term is babbling! It's a step on the road to acquiring language and it occurs in different phases at different ages for different infants.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbling
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbling
> Both my kids started "talking" very early (I wanna say within the first or, at most, second month of being born...
Well sure if you just redefine what talking is...
Well sure if you just redefine what talking is...
That's why it's quoted, but you knew that already :)
Sorry about that. Was in a rotten mood. No excuse though.
I have been able to recall memories from the time I was one years old. I even recalled a dream I had at the age of 3. These memories were long forgotten and probably the last time I recalled them was at the age of 7. I am now 40.
Recently, I unlocked a memory at the age of 2 months. It is difficult to believe except to me. After unlocking it, the memory felt like it was yesterday. And I have recalled this memory multiple times in my childhood phase. I guess I am now recalling my childhood in greater detail which is causing me to remember what memories I was recalling at the time.
So why can't we remember our baby memories? Because of shock. The present day gives us so much stress. So we focus on now. We focus on what helps us now. We recall memories that help us in the NOW. If you want to recall a memory from before, imagine a stress that likely would have also occurred from before. Like being hungry and being unable to communicate. And reaching for a bottle of milk. Being unable to walk or crawl. Lying on your back. For me, hunger does not evoke too much stress. Other things do like headaches.
Recently, I unlocked a memory at the age of 2 months. It is difficult to believe except to me. After unlocking it, the memory felt like it was yesterday. And I have recalled this memory multiple times in my childhood phase. I guess I am now recalling my childhood in greater detail which is causing me to remember what memories I was recalling at the time.
So why can't we remember our baby memories? Because of shock. The present day gives us so much stress. So we focus on now. We focus on what helps us now. We recall memories that help us in the NOW. If you want to recall a memory from before, imagine a stress that likely would have also occurred from before. Like being hungry and being unable to communicate. And reaching for a bottle of milk. Being unable to walk or crawl. Lying on your back. For me, hunger does not evoke too much stress. Other things do like headaches.
My earliest memory is age 2, which was a traumatic one. Being wheeled through the double doors into the surgery areas, while my mom had to wait outside and was assuring me we would get Taco Bell after.
Age 3. My father assembling a solid plastic child riding horse with springs.
Age 4. A residential home converted to child day care, where I first encountered Cosmic Encounter on a table (probably left out from the night before). I had no idea what that was until my teens.
Age 4-6, a rather large number of memories like beginning to formally write with my left hand, almost choking on a sea shell I had been sucking on, Jimmy Carter was president, my first memorable Halloween, etc. All at a Kindercare facility, which is a national pre-school chain.
Age 3. My father assembling a solid plastic child riding horse with springs.
Age 4. A residential home converted to child day care, where I first encountered Cosmic Encounter on a table (probably left out from the night before). I had no idea what that was until my teens.
Age 4-6, a rather large number of memories like beginning to formally write with my left hand, almost choking on a sea shell I had been sucking on, Jimmy Carter was president, my first memorable Halloween, etc. All at a Kindercare facility, which is a national pre-school chain.
So it's like a built-in protection to prevent us from recalling traumatic experiences ? Could make sense. But then why also block the overwhelmingly good memories like getting xmas presents ?
I don’t think you can put logic on what you do and don’t remember from an event. Biology would have to mate that with some contextual reasoning somehow which seems a bit to complex for something so inherently subconscious. For example when I think of some family vacations from childhood I can remember deep details about staring out the car window at some place, but as for the fun things we actually did there I am at a loss and have to be reminded by family.
I guess all that is to say you can’t seem to be in control of when the tape player starts recording and you can’t reliably find your old tapes.
I guess all that is to say you can’t seem to be in control of when the tape player starts recording and you can’t reliably find your old tapes.
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This is my educated guess on the topic having spent time investigating the intersection of poor memory, human growth patterns etc where this topic intersects:
Norepinephrine is a key regulatory of memory. Before a certain age the body is much more in parasympathetic activation v.s. sympathetic activation, very low Norepinephrine, lower cortisol response needs, etc. Once growth slows down and this can flip over then mammals will start to form memories. Human curves for the curious: https://obgynkey.com/growth-and-puberty-3/
Some fun notable mentions such as many earliest memories are "super scary" and those with poor ability to produce Norepinephrine and slower growth velocity will have later "first memories" than everyone else.
Norepinephrine is a key regulatory of memory. Before a certain age the body is much more in parasympathetic activation v.s. sympathetic activation, very low Norepinephrine, lower cortisol response needs, etc. Once growth slows down and this can flip over then mammals will start to form memories. Human curves for the curious: https://obgynkey.com/growth-and-puberty-3/
Some fun notable mentions such as many earliest memories are "super scary" and those with poor ability to produce Norepinephrine and slower growth velocity will have later "first memories" than everyone else.
I have memories dating back to the day I was born. I was incredibly bored as an infant, so I played a game I invented where I would replay all of my memories on a regular basis. It turned out that my game was essentially a spaced repetition method. The result is that I did not forget, while others did.
If you can remember all the way back to the day of your birth, those memories are surely not real memories. Newborn babies are essentially not fully conscious - not in a way that would create any long-term memory of lived events anyway.
It sounds to me that this memory-recall game likely started when you were a toddler or preschooler rather than an infant, and that while this may give you additional reach back into your earliest memories, it was likely more a game of creativity than genuine memory recall. Into adulthood the real memories and the invented ones can end up feeling roughly the same.
Unfortunately there's really no way to test the accuracy of your memory aside from comparing your memories to a previously unobserved but concrete record. For most of us, our childhood was documented by our parents, and the stories shared with us over the course of our lives, so there's no way to prove that even the accurate recollections weren't simply our memories of the stories rather than the events themselves.
Humans have poor memory anyway. We misremember things that happened recently, so it is probably unwise to trust your memory of things that distant as being accurate, especially when they reach back to an age where most established science suggests that you wouldn't have even possessed self-awareness.
It sounds to me that this memory-recall game likely started when you were a toddler or preschooler rather than an infant, and that while this may give you additional reach back into your earliest memories, it was likely more a game of creativity than genuine memory recall. Into adulthood the real memories and the invented ones can end up feeling roughly the same.
Unfortunately there's really no way to test the accuracy of your memory aside from comparing your memories to a previously unobserved but concrete record. For most of us, our childhood was documented by our parents, and the stories shared with us over the course of our lives, so there's no way to prove that even the accurate recollections weren't simply our memories of the stories rather than the events themselves.
Humans have poor memory anyway. We misremember things that happened recently, so it is probably unwise to trust your memory of things that distant as being accurate, especially when they reach back to an age where most established science suggests that you wouldn't have even possessed self-awareness.
It started at some point after my birth when I still remembered my time in the hospital and given that I later successfully recounted events from that day, that my grandparents witnessed, to my parents, it is safe to say that my memories are accurate. Your assumption that I was not conscious is absurd. Maybe you were not conscious, but I was. I was a very precocious child.
A newborn's eyes are not focussed.
That would explain why everything was white except really close things like the nurses’ hands. The nurses’ hands were the only color other than white that I recall seeing that day. I had some awareness of the crib’s walls (or whatever that thing was), but beyond that, I saw nothing but bright white light.
If that study is correct https://www.jneurosci.org/content/32/35/12144.abstract, considering the number of times you must have recalled them, what you remember must be significantly different than what happened, especially since you were probably missing a lot of understanding as an infant.
It is not that significantly different, although my poor understanding certainly left people with that impression. I thought the nurse in the hospital on the day I was born was an aunt. As a young child, I would later describe my baptism at 9 months of age as being dunked. It was not that I meant that I was literally dunked into the water. I simply thought the sensation of water dripping to the back of my head was being dunked. I also had been terrified during my baptism since I thought the deacon was trying to drown me. My parents were so thrilled that I was not crying like the other children while in reality, the reason I was silent was because I terrified about actually being immersed into water and drowned. That said, at the time, I did not really understand how to disambiguate what I had regarded to be dunking from immersion, even though I had the faint concept that the air supply could be severed by being immersed in water, which is why I had been terrified.
I recall one time when I was around 2 years old and my parents took me to Pizza Hut. When asked about toppings and hearing that we could have three, I said I wanted extra extra extra cheese. They thought I was being cute. However, I had no concept of cuteness or how to be it. I simply wanted all 3 toppings to be extra cheese and to my disappointment, 2 of the toppings were not. At the time, I had not known how to say 3 toppings of extra cheese and I thought repeating extra three times would communicate what I wanted.
That said, I stopped playing my memory recall game around age 5 when I began to be bullied and did not want to remember the past anymore. That left me with far fewer memories from early grade school than I had from prior years. It also let many of my early memories fade, although not enough for me to forget them entirely.
I recall one time when I was around 2 years old and my parents took me to Pizza Hut. When asked about toppings and hearing that we could have three, I said I wanted extra extra extra cheese. They thought I was being cute. However, I had no concept of cuteness or how to be it. I simply wanted all 3 toppings to be extra cheese and to my disappointment, 2 of the toppings were not. At the time, I had not known how to say 3 toppings of extra cheese and I thought repeating extra three times would communicate what I wanted.
That said, I stopped playing my memory recall game around age 5 when I began to be bullied and did not want to remember the past anymore. That left me with far fewer memories from early grade school than I had from prior years. It also let many of my early memories fade, although not enough for me to forget them entirely.
> However, I had no concept of cuteness or how to be it.
My memory isn't as good as yours, but you just reminded me of this fairly distinct feeling. As a child you're being earnest; only as an adult do you see that as being cute.
My memory isn't as good as yours, but you just reminded me of this fairly distinct feeling. As a child you're being earnest; only as an adult do you see that as being cute.
To the day you were born sounds extreme? Does a baby even 'see'? Your game as a kid makes the concept kinda believable in some sense though. But I have a hard time believing that early?
I have quite a lot of early memories. More than usual. And I remember that I remembered more early stuff when I was a child but I have no recollection of my first year now and only really vague and maybe indirect memories of my second year.
I have quite a lot of early memories. More than usual. And I remember that I remembered more early stuff when I was a child but I have no recollection of my first year now and only really vague and maybe indirect memories of my second year.
Everything except things up close was white. If I had to guess, I could not see further than a foot if that (although when I first was able to talk, I had thought the distance had been 3 feet or less). I did try looking around once after making great effort to push my torso upward, but everything was white and it was exhausting. I wanted to make another attempt but did not muster the will to exert myself again. The only color I could see aside from white was the nurse’s hand when she annoyingly reached into the crib (or whatever it was called) to put some uncomfortably warm thing onto my head. My hands did not work very well so I had to nudge it off my head each time using them as blunt instruments. To my relief, she gave up after a few times.
Interestingly, my grandparents had witnessed all of this. Later, when I could speak and asked my mother why my aunt kept putting something on my head one day when I was younger, she recalled what my grandparents had told her and told me it was the nurse on the day I was born. I had not realized it had been the day I was born until she told me. At the time I could speak to ask about it, I simply had regarded it to be when I was very young.
Interestingly, my grandparents had witnessed all of this. Later, when I could speak and asked my mother why my aunt kept putting something on my head one day when I was younger, she recalled what my grandparents had told her and told me it was the nurse on the day I was born. I had not realized it had been the day I was born until she told me. At the time I could speak to ask about it, I simply had regarded it to be when I was very young.
To be clear, I had no idea that various early memories were from my first year until I talked to my parents about them. The memories that have been dated to my first year are:
* The time in the room where newborn children are placed. The events here were witnessed by my grandparents and told to my parents.
* The remnant of my umbilical cord falling off my belly button at my aunt’s house. That really hurt.
* My baptism. I had misunderstood the water as a prelude to being drowned and was terrified that the deacon wanted to kill me.
I assume that there are more memories from my first year, but since they do not correspond to something others witnessed and remember, there is no way of dating them to that year.
In the case of the first two, I had asked my parents about them when I could talk and they realized that I was recalling very early memories. In the case of my baptism, my mother had decided to recount my baptism talking about happy she was that I had been the only well behaved child there (the Catholic Church often baptizes children in batches). Upon hearing that, I remembered the event and responded complaining that I had only been quiet because I thought if I had opened my mouth to cry, I would have been drowned to death soon afterward. What was a fond memory for her was a horrific memory for me.
* The time in the room where newborn children are placed. The events here were witnessed by my grandparents and told to my parents.
* The remnant of my umbilical cord falling off my belly button at my aunt’s house. That really hurt.
* My baptism. I had misunderstood the water as a prelude to being drowned and was terrified that the deacon wanted to kill me.
I assume that there are more memories from my first year, but since they do not correspond to something others witnessed and remember, there is no way of dating them to that year.
In the case of the first two, I had asked my parents about them when I could talk and they realized that I was recalling very early memories. In the case of my baptism, my mother had decided to recount my baptism talking about happy she was that I had been the only well behaved child there (the Catholic Church often baptizes children in batches). Upon hearing that, I remembered the event and responded complaining that I had only been quiet because I thought if I had opened my mouth to cry, I would have been drowned to death soon afterward. What was a fond memory for her was a horrific memory for me.
The concept is interesting. I think the awareness of babies might be underestimated.
> I had misunderstood the water as a prelude to being drowned and was terrified that the deacon wanted to kill me.
Sounds like a rationalisation way later though? I don't think you could be aware of either concept at the time. Like, the fear of the priest as a stranger, or fear of the other babies screams from pouring water on their heads. Not the concept of drowning or killing.
> I had misunderstood the water as a prelude to being drowned and was terrified that the deacon wanted to kill me.
Sounds like a rationalisation way later though? I don't think you could be aware of either concept at the time. Like, the fear of the priest as a stranger, or fear of the other babies screams from pouring water on their heads. Not the concept of drowning or killing.
It was a deacon and I was not afraid of him. I was afraid of being drowned. I probably had some prior notion of drowning from being bathed by my mother. She was a very results oriented person that did not have any idea that the details of how you do things are important. It is almost certain that she accidentally got water in my nose at some point (possibly multiple times), which made me acutely aware of the notion of drowning. It is a memory that I likely elected to forget, although traces likely remained, which likely caused my fear during my baptism.
Coincidentally, I have had a lifelong aversion to putting my head below water. It made learning to swim impossible.
Coincidentally, I have had a lifelong aversion to putting my head below water. It made learning to swim impossible.
Isn't drowning one of the few things that babies instinctually fear?
My goodness, this is fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
[deleted]
I have a few memories that my parents have placed at around me being 2. I would say they have also remained through repetition, but in my case not active or voluntary. Those memories, although very vivid and specific (I can pinpoint them as specific events), are mostly attached to senses (something I saw, something I smelled). And because I continued to have those inputs during several years later, I guess the memories were thus persisted.
What do you remember of the day you were born? How did you validate your memories?
My parents and I later discussed them. Anyway, I remember the room where they put children after they were born. Everything was white except for what was really close. A nurse that I had assumed at some point to be a relative kept putting this annoyingly warm cap on my head that I struggled to remove. I even tried pushing myself up once to look around, but I saw nothing and the effort was exhausting, so I did not try it again even though I contemplated doing it. It turns out that my grandparents were watching through the window from the hospital hallway and witnessed that, which I later heard after I recounted the story.
Wow, that's really quite something!
I have memories way back. Not quite infant, but somewhere between 1 and 2 years old, I started to string it together.
One trigger was fear of sleep. How do I know I wake up the same person? Seems silly right? Well, past me without a whole lot of experience was really concerned. I can remember a ton after that time.
What I find really interesting is both of us made some active choice to remember. Like we ended up with self awareness really early.
For me, it was mostly about unanswered questions. I have memories that are strongest from that time:
One was flicking the spring in my crib. Swoosh doing, doing, da,da,doing! That is me earliest one.
Why does it bounce like that? And the noise! If I flick one today, on one of those
Another was a trip to the neighbors. Their kid was named Cash. That is what we call money! WTF is with that?
Cash took me to play down stairs and they had a ton of nice stuff down there. Fencing for a ring of thieves. I recalled enough to nail them many years later to which my mom confessed they moved to get away from those people. Lol.
Another was this big bee. I looked at it and bet I was faster and stomped! Ouweeeee! The need died, but also totally stung me. Was not faster. Ugh. Boy, I can recall our porch, welcome mat, bright clear summer day, that bee and my foot going down. . I have more. Turning on the TV was vivid. Old tube one made noises as it came up. And smells. I recall it like it was yesterday.
Anything intriguing and I go into record mode. Everything about that time gets saved. Where I was who I was with, happenings...
I was afraid I might forget and never learn the thing one learns on one of those.
I still do it. Not as often now due to experience, but if it is really new to me, I will feel that switch and off it goes.
One trigger was fear of sleep. How do I know I wake up the same person? Seems silly right? Well, past me without a whole lot of experience was really concerned. I can remember a ton after that time.
What I find really interesting is both of us made some active choice to remember. Like we ended up with self awareness really early.
For me, it was mostly about unanswered questions. I have memories that are strongest from that time:
One was flicking the spring in my crib. Swoosh doing, doing, da,da,doing! That is me earliest one.
Why does it bounce like that? And the noise! If I flick one today, on one of those
Another was a trip to the neighbors. Their kid was named Cash. That is what we call money! WTF is with that?
Cash took me to play down stairs and they had a ton of nice stuff down there. Fencing for a ring of thieves. I recalled enough to nail them many years later to which my mom confessed they moved to get away from those people. Lol.
Another was this big bee. I looked at it and bet I was faster and stomped! Ouweeeee! The need died, but also totally stung me. Was not faster. Ugh. Boy, I can recall our porch, welcome mat, bright clear summer day, that bee and my foot going down. . I have more. Turning on the TV was vivid. Old tube one made noises as it came up. And smells. I recall it like it was yesterday.
Anything intriguing and I go into record mode. Everything about that time gets saved. Where I was who I was with, happenings...
I was afraid I might forget and never learn the thing one learns on one of those.
I still do it. Not as often now due to experience, but if it is really new to me, I will feel that switch and off it goes.
Much of human evolution is about the tension between our big brains making us smarter, but also killing our mothers more often during birth.
The hack evolution landed on is that we're born 1-2 years premature compared to most mammals.
From that perspective, this isn't especially weird.
The hack evolution landed on is that we're born 1-2 years premature compared to most mammals.
From that perspective, this isn't especially weird.
Could be that we don't really replay memories as toddlers and memory sticks by spaced repetition. When I have weeks where a ton of stuff is happening I don't remember a lot of the details even now at 30 because there's too much for me to repeat
So many of my early memories feel almost 3rd person because I mostly remember them as the stories told. Mostly around injuries I had as a kid though I know the memories are at least a little warped because the way I "remember" laying while I was getting stitches in my hand would mean it was on my left hand but I have the scar on my right hand. (Most likely I wasn't looking at the doctor/surgeon like I remember but facing the other way or something.)
I figured the reason why we cannot remember such a part of our lives is because our brains grew enough that the 'memory' neuron groups wound up converted to 'network connections', the connection and this is pretty much a result of a geometric constraints. Theoretically we could have a process of the brain relocate the memories before conversion, but it was probably selected against because it would increase calorie consumption by 5%.
I had a friend who swore she had memories from before she could speak, like remembering specific events with extreme frustration about not being able to express herself.
Same here: she wanted to say to her mother "give me that cup back for a minute, I only wanted to look at the interesting pattern that's on it".
Memories aren’t an objective tape recording. Memories are the brain’s model of the world. You spend your life refining your model of the world. Your earliest memories were initial rough approximations (misinterpretations, if you will) that are later superseded by better (more predictive) approximations. So you forget (they don’t activate as predictions) the old inaccurate (less predictive) memories in favor of the newer (more predictive) memories.
It's crazy that people here have memories from when they were toddlers while I'm 29 and have a hard time remembering stuff from my early teens.
I am with you. That said, I feel like looking at a photo when I was very young say around 4 or 5 does seem to invoke memories about the house I grew up in. I wonder if the brain is just making up the memory or the photo is actually helping the brain access some dormant region in the brain.
Further, I have also noticed that when I meditate sometimes my mind wanders and brings me some memories from the childhood - totally random, unrelated to current events memories.
Further, I have also noticed that when I meditate sometimes my mind wanders and brings me some memories from the childhood - totally random, unrelated to current events memories.
I drank heavily from my early teens to my late-twenties. Like full-blown alcoholism.
I can't remember many things from that decade+, but more significantly my sense of when things happened that I do remember is usually off by years.
I can't remember many things from that decade+, but more significantly my sense of when things happened that I do remember is usually off by years.
I have memories from my whole life but only smatterings of them. When I say I have memories from being as toddler it's like a few here and there.
I have a decent memory for places, so-so for people, very little for events. I could draw a reasonable floor plan of my childhood home and tell you about friends and family who were there. But I could only tell you about a handful of things that happened in that place.
It's not much better in more recent times. I could say much the same about everywhere I've lived as an adult.
It's not much better in more recent times. I could say much the same about everywhere I've lived as an adult.
Are they remembering a memory or a memory of a memory? And in the end is there any difference?
I took lots of pictures of my kids. Those pictures trigger memories, but it's unclear if they would have remembered those things without the pictures. And there's no real way to tell if those memories are real, or just narratives attached to the trigger.
It's interesting to think about.
I took lots of pictures of my kids. Those pictures trigger memories, but it's unclear if they would have remembered those things without the pictures. And there's no real way to tell if those memories are real, or just narratives attached to the trigger.
It's interesting to think about.
All memories after the first recall is a memory of a memory. And after second recall, it's a memory of a memory of a memory. And so on. That's how the hippocampus works.
As others have said, I remember "snapshots" too, but I also remember "feelings": the scent of my favorite family members, my aunts and uncles, their voices, how they used to behave, their common catchphrases, the feeling of happiness when meeting them or fear when they got angry, and so on.
Why can't HNers remember to read the article?
There's actually some quite suprising stuff in that article, e.g. some cultures have earlier childhood memories than others, and there's some interesting suggestions as to why that is. Also considerations about how early events can apparently be stored but not consciously remembered.
There's actually some quite suprising stuff in that article, e.g. some cultures have earlier childhood memories than others, and there's some interesting suggestions as to why that is. Also considerations about how early events can apparently be stored but not consciously remembered.
> Why can't HNers remember to read the article?
To quote:
"""NEW YORK, NY – A recent study showed that 70% of people actually never read more than the headline of a science article before commenting and sharing. Most simply see a headline they like and click share and make a comment. A recent study showed that 70% of people actually never read more than the headline of a science article before commenting and sharing. Most simply see a headline they like and click share and make a comment.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet…"""
- https://thesciencepost.com/study-70-of-facebook-commenters-o...
To quote:
"""NEW YORK, NY – A recent study showed that 70% of people actually never read more than the headline of a science article before commenting and sharing. Most simply see a headline they like and click share and make a comment. A recent study showed that 70% of people actually never read more than the headline of a science article before commenting and sharing. Most simply see a headline they like and click share and make a comment.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet…"""
- https://thesciencepost.com/study-70-of-facebook-commenters-o...
The most frustrating iteration of this is when someone uses an article to make a point in an argument...and they didn't read it! A clickbait headline seems to support their claim, but the substance refutes it.
could it be that memory must require language as a predicate? Without language, how does one "record" the memory?
From experience, I am skeptical of this hypothesis. Little kids will absolutely recall memories from before they knew how to speak.
Just last week, my two-year-old spied the freezer pops in storage. She pointed out back and said, "Eat on deck!" Clearly, she remembered eating freezer pops on the deck, but the last time she did that was last summer (northern hemisphere) when she didn't know how to talk at all, let alone say "deck".
Just last week, my two-year-old spied the freezer pops in storage. She pointed out back and said, "Eat on deck!" Clearly, she remembered eating freezer pops on the deck, but the last time she did that was last summer (northern hemisphere) when she didn't know how to talk at all, let alone say "deck".
There are people without internal monologues, and most people can also visualize something and remember scenery without words. There are also animals that (likely) don't have language that apparently have memories.
That's interesting, because my earliest memory was wordplay related. Though I doubt I could have strung a sentence together at the time, there were definitely words involved. I have a few relatively early memories, but none that are totally pre-language.
Animals have no meaningful language but clearly have memory. Also the separation between thinking and language becomes quite clear as you learn another language and realize that asking what language you think in is not such an easy question to answer.
In her autobiography, Helen Keller describes memories from her childhood, before she was taught to communicate, so it would seem language isn't necessarily a prerequisite for memory formation.
I can't counterexample the first half, but my only vivid memory from being a 2-year-old is primarily visual (though it does involve surprise at the reality contrasting with a prior description in words).
My dog sometimes buries a bone when we give him one. Later he digs it up and chews on it some more. He forms a memory of where he buried it without the use of language (I'm pretty sure).
> Without language, how does one "record" the memory?
The same way one rides a bicycle without telling themselves to balance and operate the brakes.
The same way one rides a bicycle without telling themselves to balance and operate the brakes.
No, you can also remember physical activity.
My brain/memory turned on full lucid at age 2ish. I remember dreams in vivid detail, can draw you pictures of houses ive been in, all sorts of conversations my parents had.
I'm writing a memoir right now, since I dont know what else to do to shed this since it's pretty horrible stuff I remember.
I'm writing a memoir right now, since I dont know what else to do to shed this since it's pretty horrible stuff I remember.
Our culture is predicated on the inability of infants to remember. The overwhelming majority of newborn infant boys have their genitals mutilated and the medical community claims that they will have no knowledge. When stakes are this high, we don't want them to remember.
Your brain is constantly changing, and much moreso when you're young. Imagine that you're trying to load files from a previous version of a piece of software into the current version - when the format is just a binary dump and nobody has been working on backwards compatibility.
But you can? You just reproduce the situation and a strange sort of deja vu returns? Take a ball- really badly, then grasp it with ever better technique and more precision, until you arrive at your grasping skills of today.
Same goes with chewing on things - and the first taste of anything.
Same goes with chewing on things - and the first taste of anything.
This looks like they listened to the BBC Crowd Science Podcast (recommended FYI) a week earlier and re-wrote it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct5rjf
I remember a lot of my toddler years. I also remember coming out of what, looking back, feels like a dream-like state that was much simpler emotionally and cognitively but had almost a hallucinogenic feel before "waking up" as a toddler.
I believe I remember trying to say a word and being frustrated that parents wouldn't wait and gave up just as I was about to utter the sounds, or something along those lines, it's really a vague memory of having a memory at this point.
It is interesting that many people do not remember events when they were two years old. But much more interesting that some people do not believe that there are people who can remember events from age two.
I remember everything. Eidetic memory. Things before vision developed are obviously blurry or fully dark from before birth. What do you want to know?
I don't remember everything, but I definitely have a handful of memories from when I was a toddler (2-3yo). Such as when my sister was born.
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Odd. My first memory turned out to be when I described in later years to my mother from when I was just over a year old.
I think it's because babies and toddlers aren't conscious. Sentient, yes, but like a dog.
> Life must be great as a baby: to be fed and clothed and carried places in soft pouches
Not really. Genital mutilation is very barbaric and traumatising procedure. Most victims suppress it, and develop all sorts of mental issues. Victims have very high suicide rate!
One of the reasons we can not remember our early lives. It was a horror!
Not really. Genital mutilation is very barbaric and traumatising procedure. Most victims suppress it, and develop all sorts of mental issues. Victims have very high suicide rate!
One of the reasons we can not remember our early lives. It was a horror!
Can you support the claims starting from "Most victims"?
>There is debate between memory experts as to the role of language in infantile amnesia. Human researchers suggest memories may be limited by an inability to give language to early experiences. “But there must be something more fundamental that also plays a role because we see this same [infantile amnesia] effect in non-linguistic animals like rats,” says Prof Rick Richardson of the University of New South Wales.
That opposition doesn't quite make sense to me. If you are examining the linguistic view of it, then what we're talking about is that memory requires symbolic understanding. Not just language (a fairly sophisticated symbolic tool), but also just the ability to schematize your various sensory impressions into conceptualized objects. My earliest memory is sitting in a high chair playing with Duplos (large Legos for young children) being frustrated that I couldn't connect two pieces. That requires a few concepts such as a high chair, the tray sitting in front of me, the pieces I was playing with, and emotions like anger. Symbolic understanding isn't necessary for any of that to happen, but it does seem necessary to store it for recall decades later.
The problem with comparing this to rat memory is that I'm not convinced that rats have anywhere near the same kind of symbolic understanding, so how can they be compared to humans in this capacity? Rats can remember things, but babies can also be taught sign language starting at around 6 months, which seems much closer to rat memory (the direct linking of a perception with an emotion, unmediated by a symbolic transformation).
That opposition doesn't quite make sense to me. If you are examining the linguistic view of it, then what we're talking about is that memory requires symbolic understanding. Not just language (a fairly sophisticated symbolic tool), but also just the ability to schematize your various sensory impressions into conceptualized objects. My earliest memory is sitting in a high chair playing with Duplos (large Legos for young children) being frustrated that I couldn't connect two pieces. That requires a few concepts such as a high chair, the tray sitting in front of me, the pieces I was playing with, and emotions like anger. Symbolic understanding isn't necessary for any of that to happen, but it does seem necessary to store it for recall decades later.
The problem with comparing this to rat memory is that I'm not convinced that rats have anywhere near the same kind of symbolic understanding, so how can they be compared to humans in this capacity? Rats can remember things, but babies can also be taught sign language starting at around 6 months, which seems much closer to rat memory (the direct linking of a perception with an emotion, unmediated by a symbolic transformation).
Because the apparatus for remembering is emergent, derived from accumulated training data. Only when the person's brain has gpt-2 level training data is what we call memory available. Of course actual memory as in persistent storage, is there from before birth.
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I remember back to age 2, fwiw.
Because the transceiver(brain) hasn't been ready to connect with the real you in another dimension.
i remember i was crawling as a child
> Life must be great as a baby: to be fed and clothed and carried places in soft pouches, to be waved and smiled at by adoring strangers, to have the temerity to scream because food hasn’t arrived quickly enough, and then to throw it on the ground when it is displeasing. It’s a shame none of us recalls exactly how good we once had it.
Babies are also almost completely unable to move around by themselves and are constantly frustrated by their lack of agency. They are extremely vulnerable and utterly dependent on the kindness of their parents and other older humans in their environment. They lack language so have no other way of communicating than screaming, which is often also a cause of great distress because of an inability to communicate a basic need (and on that note, even knowing what those needs are half of the time, given that the ability to make sense of ones own senses is still being developed).
All of this while life is a nonstop series of first experiences, meaning that even the most mundane thing can (and often is) surprising, confusing and overwhelming, leading to a high need for reassurance, because being scared and wanting to make sure that you're really safe is honestly a very sensible reaction to have when you add all of those things up.
I'm not saying life sucks for babies and toddlers, but as a parent of a two-year old myself it's pretty obvious to me that it's no walk in the park for them either.