Intentionally Making Close Friends (2021)(neelnanda.io)
neelnanda.io
Intentionally Making Close Friends (2021)
https://www.neelnanda.io/blog/43-making-friends
123 comments
I used to feel insecure or jealous of the number of friends these people have, but years ago I realized that I would find their lives exhausting and terrible. And vice versa, they'd hate the amount of time I spend on my own doing stuff.
For me it’s not that I want to have a ton of friends like they do, it’s more that I worry about how we each perceive the relative importance of the relationship. E.g., they are one of five friends to me; I’m one of 50 friends to them.
The deep Schadenfreude when you see your extroverted friend rage about their phone ringing for the 8th time this hour.
> ...getting insecure or jealous of all the other social connections that your extrovert friends have. There’s an asymmetry there that can feed lots of insecurities.
I wouldn't sweat this too much. Mathematically, most people have fewer friends than their friends have.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox
I wouldn't sweat this too much. Mathematically, most people have fewer friends than their friends have.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship_paradox
I don’t fully understand how this is a paradox. I guess it’s based on the fact that there are „super nodes“ in human social networks, where one person has many friends, while most others don’t? Or is there anything more to it?
It's the more expansive definition of paradox, meaning something like "counterintuitive result". In expectancy, a randomly chosen person has an average number of friends. You might therefore think that a random person and their friends, all of whom seem randomly chosen, would have the same expected number of friends. But you'd be wrong, because the friends weren't random after all: they had at least one friend. Not a logical paradox, but a surprising fact.
I wouldn’t have expected that everyone has as many friends as themselves, hence my confusion. Thanks for taking the time to respond though.
Found the EE!
The counter-intuitiveness is partially to averaging. Averages often deceive our intuitions.
There is a fun but rare kind of humanist that doesn't think they are special but are curious about others, see the value in randos they meet and thinks that _others_ are special and they really _listen_, you know?
Pretty sure its just that they all have superior statistical intuition.
Pretty sure its just that they all have superior statistical intuition.
>I’m sure that there’s something equivalent from the other direction, but I dont know what it is
There's a risk of becoming a people pleaser or letting people down. People expect you to manage the party or the outing or whatever.
There's fear that the many relationships you have are shallow. Even in this post your suggestion is to simply use the extrovert to get to a real friend you actually want.
Direct insecurity of what people "actually" think of you is still there, I'm sure.
That said, people are usually thinking about their own problems and what people think of them a lot more than what they think of you so just relax a bit.
There's a risk of becoming a people pleaser or letting people down. People expect you to manage the party or the outing or whatever.
There's fear that the many relationships you have are shallow. Even in this post your suggestion is to simply use the extrovert to get to a real friend you actually want.
Direct insecurity of what people "actually" think of you is still there, I'm sure.
That said, people are usually thinking about their own problems and what people think of them a lot more than what they think of you so just relax a bit.
Find some nerdy social hobby, become part of a community. Board games, killer queen arcade, and indoor rock climbing have all been a bridge to some close friendships for me.
Int-to-int pairs are more likely to form in nature at specific watering holes.
For example, EA/rationalist is not quite my kind of community (altough I think highly of many of their writings), but an ACX meetup looks like a good place for introverts of a particular kind to come together.
I guess the trick is to find the right kind of place first.
For example, EA/rationalist is not quite my kind of community (altough I think highly of many of their writings), but an ACX meetup looks like a good place for introverts of a particular kind to come together.
I guess the trick is to find the right kind of place first.
For those who are out of the loop:
EA: Effective Altruism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_altruism )
ACX: Astral Codex Ten; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACX https://www.astralcodexten.com/
LW (used at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43663979 ): Less Wrong
EA: Effective Altruism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_altruism )
ACX: Astral Codex Ten; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACX https://www.astralcodexten.com/
LW (used at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43663979 ): Less Wrong
If you like reading HN then you’d probably enjoy an LW meetup!
Ughh, LessWrong is a bit more of a rationalist cult than anything - and I say that as somebody who is in the AIS & EA space. It's a huge problem that fields like AI Safety happen on that forum, as "normies" really get scared off by the stuff that's on there.
These days they are more of racialist scientism meet & greet
Who'd want to miss out on joining the next Zizians!
There's nothing equivalent from the other direction.
- extrovert
(/s ;))
- extrovert
(/s ;))
Ah, you b--tard stealing my hard-earned friends! ;))
But seriously, is this how some insecure introverts also bond around those charismatic sociopaths and then help'em ruin the world while quietly working for the XYZ agencies? /s
But seriously, is this how some insecure introverts also bond around those charismatic sociopaths and then help'em ruin the world while quietly working for the XYZ agencies? /s
I think that’s just insecure people in general, unless extroverts have an ability I don’t know about that makes them immune to charming sociopaths
I have a childhood friend that I went to school with for all of my school days. Ever since school days, we find the same obscure things funny and always end up in splits whenever we talk. To this day, I don't have this with any other friend.
We had a few years' gap of not really being in touch during undergrad but that changed as we had a few months' overlap at post-grad university. It was easier to meet after that and we did keep in touch, but I felt that he was holding back somewhat and not really being free with his thoughts, letting the conversation flag at times.
So at a friend's wedding a couple of years ago, I opened up to him and plainly told him that it's a shame we don't talk as we used to as we both are clearly on the same wavelength when it comes to shared interests and sense of humour. And this worked - our degree of friendship has increased an order of magnitude since before that time. I would have lost a great friend to the vagaries of life had I not taken that step to become vulnerable for an instant then.
We had a few years' gap of not really being in touch during undergrad but that changed as we had a few months' overlap at post-grad university. It was easier to meet after that and we did keep in touch, but I felt that he was holding back somewhat and not really being free with his thoughts, letting the conversation flag at times.
So at a friend's wedding a couple of years ago, I opened up to him and plainly told him that it's a shame we don't talk as we used to as we both are clearly on the same wavelength when it comes to shared interests and sense of humour. And this worked - our degree of friendship has increased an order of magnitude since before that time. I would have lost a great friend to the vagaries of life had I not taken that step to become vulnerable for an instant then.
My first job out of college I was hired to follow around an MSP/IT consultant and learn what he did, specifically to cut the expense of having a MCSA/network engineer coming in weekly for basic desktop support.
I met him in the server closet and asked “hey, I’m new here - do you mind if I look over your shoulder?” He turned around and smiled, “if you are here to help, then you should sit down and I’ll walk you through setting up Exchange mailboxes for these doctors.” Before he left, he walked me through a RAM upgrade and gave me his lucky red screwdriver “ you got this, just call me if you have any issues.”
Later in my career, I continue to learn lessons from this interaction; lately the lesson has been one of “don’t be awesome in a vacuum” - a little bit of encouragement to the new guy can go a long way to adding another person to your on-call rotation that you trust.
20 years later, I still have his screwdriver - and I bring it every time we have lunch every once in a while.
Life is too short to not let the people who make life enjoyable for us know so.
I met him in the server closet and asked “hey, I’m new here - do you mind if I look over your shoulder?” He turned around and smiled, “if you are here to help, then you should sit down and I’ll walk you through setting up Exchange mailboxes for these doctors.” Before he left, he walked me through a RAM upgrade and gave me his lucky red screwdriver “ you got this, just call me if you have any issues.”
Later in my career, I continue to learn lessons from this interaction; lately the lesson has been one of “don’t be awesome in a vacuum” - a little bit of encouragement to the new guy can go a long way to adding another person to your on-call rotation that you trust.
20 years later, I still have his screwdriver - and I bring it every time we have lunch every once in a while.
Life is too short to not let the people who make life enjoyable for us know so.
Mutual sacrifice is the glue that takes time to set.
Mutual interest propels activity, but reliable sacrifice is the basis of trust and reliance.
But if you are perceived as welching on this, you will induce real and lasting anger, justifiably in my mind because you’ve just made it harder for people to trust for the rest of their lives.
And this is not limited to close friends.
A girlfriend’s mom’s advice: trust your man only after he’s crawled over a mile of broken glass, and your boss when he’s done it underwater.
Mutual interest propels activity, but reliable sacrifice is the basis of trust and reliance.
But if you are perceived as welching on this, you will induce real and lasting anger, justifiably in my mind because you’ve just made it harder for people to trust for the rest of their lives.
And this is not limited to close friends.
A girlfriend’s mom’s advice: trust your man only after he’s crawled over a mile of broken glass, and your boss when he’s done it underwater.
Following your girlfriend's mom's advice, you wouldn't trust anyone.
Maybe that's why so few people have friends these days: they set some crazy/impossible conditions that you have to meet before they will trust you. As an autistic person it's impossible for me to guess what kind of crazy requirements I have failed to meet.
Maybe that's why so few people have friends these days: they set some crazy/impossible conditions that you have to meet before they will trust you. As an autistic person it's impossible for me to guess what kind of crazy requirements I have failed to meet.
"Trust you man" implictly means an SO/Life Partner, so crazy requirement maybe, but not applied to most people
Yes, requiring a person to literally crawl over a mile of broken glass is a crazy requirement, and not practicable in real life scenarios. Maybe I am too autistic, but I just can't interpret that statement in a non-literal way.
More meant in a "talk is cheap" way, that given the chance, most people would say that they would act a lot better than they do in reality, so don't believe them until they have proven themselves
I’ve been trying to make friends, it’s hard as an introvert. Tried a few times online to meet a wider group of people but as per other comments here people often “ghost” or don’t return the effort I’ve tried to put in.
I absolutely feel moving around as a child a dozen times meant I never formed any lasting friendships from schools, which then had knock on effects in college, and then university.
I absolutely feel moving around as a child a dozen times meant I never formed any lasting friendships from schools, which then had knock on effects in college, and then university.
For me, as a non-introvert, I had to come to the realization that most people just won’t reciprocate at a level I want. That you just have to make the stuff happen that you want to happen. So, you really can’t wait for people to reach out to you. If you want to spend time with someone or if you want to have a group outing you just have to be the one to do it. It’s kinda like any club Ive been a part in. There’s usually a few people that drive things, organize, etc and most freeload off that. Your friendships will be like that too. You might find another driver and that’s great! But it won’t be the case most of the time. And it won’t be because people don’t want to do things, it’s just how people are. I wouldn’t take offense. Just think they aren’t gonna be the vice president of your friend club and they’ll just be a member and that’s okay too. Y’all still have a good time.
Whats else everyone else doing then though. Ive experienced the same thing, it seems like no one actually organizes anything or initiates. Majority of people just sit at home or something?
Screen time is addictive.
Growing up, it seemed the kids that moved a lot, aka military brats, were often good at finding new friends. More practice I assumed.
I'm in the same boat, friend. Being exposed to so much has its upsides but ability to make lasting relationships is not one of them.
Related (Nov 2022 - 307 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33774353
Any particularly good ones?
I liked this "everyone's invited" one,
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33780725
(start a regular weekly meetup)
I wonder if engineering close connections through structured vulnerability truly leads to meaningful relationships. The best friendships emerge organically through shared struggles and mutual support, rather than scripted conversations.
The idea of forcing deep conversations might neglect the natural dynamics that make friendships work.
Strong friendships aren’t just about emotional sharing—they also require shared responsibility, common interests, and personal development.
Friendship isn’t just a checklist of deep questions—it’s cultivated through shared experiences.
True friendships form through shared hardships, common pursuits, and a natural alignment of values. There’s something profoundly meaningful about forging relationships through mutual struggle, rather than intellectual exercises in vulnerability. If someone wants deeper friendships, they might be better served by pursuing meaningful challenges alongside others, rather than structuring conversations.
The idea of forcing deep conversations might neglect the natural dynamics that make friendships work.
Strong friendships aren’t just about emotional sharing—they also require shared responsibility, common interests, and personal development.
Friendship isn’t just a checklist of deep questions—it’s cultivated through shared experiences.
True friendships form through shared hardships, common pursuits, and a natural alignment of values. There’s something profoundly meaningful about forging relationships through mutual struggle, rather than intellectual exercises in vulnerability. If someone wants deeper friendships, they might be better served by pursuing meaningful challenges alongside others, rather than structuring conversations.
Why waste everyone's time with this? We can generate facile LLM responses ourselves.
> The best friendships emerge organically through shared struggles and mutual support
This is the basis for fraternity hazing and it does work but the popular point of view is that it’s a bad thing.
This is the basis for fraternity hazing and it does work but the popular point of view is that it’s a bad thing.
I used to wait for people to talk to me. But now I try first, and it works!
Hi, what are your hobbies?
Do you come here often? I haven't seen you here before! I LIKE YOUR SHOES!
Okay story time.
A friend in college is sitting at a bus stop. Somebody sits next to him, says "hey I like your shoes", strikes up a conversation. Ends up inviting him to a business/networking seminar.
My friend goes, comes back with a book and is saying all kinds of stuff about passive income and how you gotta take control of your finances.
I google the book name, the second result is a reddit thread about how somebody at a bus stop had their shoes complimented and then got recruited for the same thing. Turns out it was Amway.
So, yeah. 'I like your shoes' works well enough as a conversation starter that it's literally in the pyramid scheme manual.
A friend in college is sitting at a bus stop. Somebody sits next to him, says "hey I like your shoes", strikes up a conversation. Ends up inviting him to a business/networking seminar.
My friend goes, comes back with a book and is saying all kinds of stuff about passive income and how you gotta take control of your finances.
I google the book name, the second result is a reddit thread about how somebody at a bus stop had their shoes complimented and then got recruited for the same thing. Turns out it was Amway.
So, yeah. 'I like your shoes' works well enough as a conversation starter that it's literally in the pyramid scheme manual.
I used to think this kind of conversation mostly worked with girls—since they often appreciate when someone notices and admires the little things about them.
That's boring. How can someone start a conversation like that? It leads to nowhere and the person is now way more disinterested in talking to you. Best way is to talk about books, games, TV shows, etc. It's something you can easily expand upon once you find a common ground
> Best way is to talk about books, games, TV shows, etc. It's something you can easily expand upon once you find a common ground
I can't think of a duller conversation. I'd prefer the one you're complaining about. At least there are feelings invested, if a tad bit one-note. The last thing I want to learn about a person is a laundry list of media they watched and liked. I only enjoy talking culture with someone who is in the industry or otherwise has a deeper relationship with it than just watching / reading one thing after another.
Just go join a discord if you want that.
I can't think of a duller conversation. I'd prefer the one you're complaining about. At least there are feelings invested, if a tad bit one-note. The last thing I want to learn about a person is a laundry list of media they watched and liked. I only enjoy talking culture with someone who is in the industry or otherwise has a deeper relationship with it than just watching / reading one thing after another.
Just go join a discord if you want that.
> Just go join a discord if you want that.
No thanks. I have and never will use a literal spyware for messaging. I happily use matrix tho
No thanks. I have and never will use a literal spyware for messaging. I happily use matrix tho
Thanks for the clarification. Both of your preferred messaging client and your interminable pedantry.
Matrix is not a client, it's a protocol. Synapse is the widely used matrix server and element, which I also use, is the widely used client
Didn't ask, don't care.
You cared enough to say that. I just can't help it when incompetent people post on subjects that they have no clue about. Ignorance is in abundance on HN, I am not surprised
> I just can't help it
Yeah continue on this journey of self-reflection.
Yeah continue on this journey of self-reflection.
When was the last time a movie made you cry?
That scene in Spiderman where they brought the other two back and they were talking about loss. Bawled like a baby.
Not that I watch a lot of movies, but when I do, they do make me emotional from time to time. I'm a sucker for a well-told, interesting good wins over evil tale, especially with a female protagonist. Not like Hollywood can do those anymore. Indies are usually the way. They gotta make Superman into basically a villain. Thankfully they haven't fucked with Spiderman yet. But I bet some dipshit will in the near future.
Anime is better, but you asked for movies.
Not that I watch a lot of movies, but when I do, they do make me emotional from time to time. I'm a sucker for a well-told, interesting good wins over evil tale, especially with a female protagonist. Not like Hollywood can do those anymore. Indies are usually the way. They gotta make Superman into basically a villain. Thankfully they haven't fucked with Spiderman yet. But I bet some dipshit will in the near future.
Anime is better, but you asked for movies.
> That's boring.
How can you continue a conversation like that? It's insulting and the person is now way more disinterested in talking to you. Best way is to be curious about the other person, whatever they're into. Gradually you can find some shared interests and common ground for being friends.
How can you continue a conversation like that? It's insulting and the person is now way more disinterested in talking to you. Best way is to be curious about the other person, whatever they're into. Gradually you can find some shared interests and common ground for being friends.
Should people wear buttons that indicate interests?
Even "read a book in a coffeehouse" doesn't work if the other patrons have to scoot below the table to read the cover.
[deleted]
[deleted]
My name is Dug. I have just met you, and I love you.
SQUIRREL!
SQUIRREL!
[deleted]
That's a good one.
Similar journey in book form: Sorry I'm Late, I Didn't Want to Come. Introvert Jessica Pan spends a year being an extrovert.
https://bookshop.org/p/books/sorry-i-m-late-i-didn-t-want-to...
https://bookshop.org/p/books/sorry-i-m-late-i-didn-t-want-to...
>> up until about 4 years ago, I didn’t have any close friends in my life. I had friends, but struggled to form real emotional connections. Moreover, it didn’t even occur to me that I could try to do this. It wasn’t that I knew how to form close friends but was too anxious to try, rather, ‘try to form close friendships’ was a non-standard action, something that never even crossed my mind
It's the same thing with enemies. If you're an introvert like me, it's really hard to make true enemies, as opposed to people that just vaguely dislike you. You might have to go pretty far out of your comfort zone to do it. For many people, similar to what the author says, it will never even cross their minds. But it can be oddly rewarding.
It's the same thing with enemies. If you're an introvert like me, it's really hard to make true enemies, as opposed to people that just vaguely dislike you. You might have to go pretty far out of your comfort zone to do it. For many people, similar to what the author says, it will never even cross their minds. But it can be oddly rewarding.
I have a small handful of people I would call my friend. Most of them since grade school. Yet, in my life, I have had three people I have really truly opened up to. One of them died suddenly, I miss you Meka. One of them stopped talking to me for reasons I don't understand. One of them cheated on me repeatedly.
I'm just frankly not sure I'll ever truly fully open up to someone again. I have been seeing a therapist for a couple of years now and I still go in with a pretty thick shell I have trouble piercing. I'm so slow to warm up to people, I just really doubt there will be another person in my life I'll ever be around enough to get to that point with. Work from home for the last five years has not helped that at all.
Being an adult just kinda sucks.
I'm just frankly not sure I'll ever truly fully open up to someone again. I have been seeing a therapist for a couple of years now and I still go in with a pretty thick shell I have trouble piercing. I'm so slow to warm up to people, I just really doubt there will be another person in my life I'll ever be around enough to get to that point with. Work from home for the last five years has not helped that at all.
Being an adult just kinda sucks.
> One of them stopped talking to me for reasons I don't understand.
This is relatively common from what I've seen. People who just ghost a friend, or ghost an entire groups of friends. A lot of the times it's because they're unhappy with their life and trying to make a clean break from what they were connected to before.
This is relatively common from what I've seen. People who just ghost a friend, or ghost an entire groups of friends. A lot of the times it's because they're unhappy with their life and trying to make a clean break from what they were connected to before.
I’m sorry for what happened to you.
I don’t know if it can comfort you but personally I’m trying to accept that it’s ok to be "vulnerable" with mostly everyone. Most of the time it creates interesting bonds with people. Sometimes you are being "vulnerable" to authentic jerks and so what ? Most of the time you can just ignore them.
I find that acting like this is actually an effective automatic filter for my social interactions.
The only place I’m more protecting myself (without being totally closed) is at work because, probably due to the environment, people aren’t acting normally at work.
I don’t know if it can comfort you but personally I’m trying to accept that it’s ok to be "vulnerable" with mostly everyone. Most of the time it creates interesting bonds with people. Sometimes you are being "vulnerable" to authentic jerks and so what ? Most of the time you can just ignore them.
I find that acting like this is actually an effective automatic filter for my social interactions.
The only place I’m more protecting myself (without being totally closed) is at work because, probably due to the environment, people aren’t acting normally at work.
One of the things I've noticed is that there is a huge discrepancy between people who can "bounce back" from someone behaving inappropriately to them when they are in a vulnerable position. People who are able to go "yeah fuck you too buddy, anyways onto the next thing" are way more able to handle things. People who end up dwelling on one person who did something bad years ago and are unable to let go of that pain end up closing themselves off for fear of exacerbating it.
Yeah but like I said, I’m just trying to do that. I’ve been like the former people you described.
In my case, I feel it’s just the wisdom of just being older. I also have the luck of having a stable life, a few friends and nice little family. I’ve never been more emotionally stable than today so of course it’s much easier not to care when people randomly betray me.
In my case, I feel it’s just the wisdom of just being older. I also have the luck of having a stable life, a few friends and nice little family. I’ve never been more emotionally stable than today so of course it’s much easier not to care when people randomly betray me.
It’s an awful feeling to have a trusted friend distance themselves with no explanation. It amplifies any insecurities we have.
I hope you find someone you can connect with. I’m rooting for you man.
I hope you find someone you can connect with. I’m rooting for you man.
Sorry about your losses, especially Meka. Showing up for therapy is courageous. That's not small.
Sort of the same. I’ve lost touch with or been sabotaged by the people I used to be close to. Now I have acquaintances, people I know and am fine hanging out with, but I don’t have anyone close that I’d really trust or open up to. And I’m fine with that, the effort it takes and the risks of being very open with someone are not worth it to me. And if someone tries to open up to me, I’m immediately suspicious and will start to distance myself. At this point in my life I’m not interested in taking on someone else’s emotional baggage.
It's not as hard as you think to get close to people, but you have to be intentional about it.
First step would be to widen your "funnel" of new people in your life before then filtering them down. Simply need to go to social events, meetups, etc.
First step would be to widen your "funnel" of new people in your life before then filtering them down. Simply need to go to social events, meetups, etc.
I believe there are lots of people I'd open up to, but it's complicated because I would want to sleep with them
I wonder how much of it is just social upbringing I see a lot of people who are from Asia or outside of America make a lot more closer friends than Americans
Right on the money. After musing on this topic for a while and drawing from a lifetime's worth of experiences I've come to the conclusion that the social environment in America is very hostile and does not encourage developing close relationships. The prevalence of these articles really surprises me and makes me wonder if the people who write them have ever experienced living in a different (warmer) culture where the default mode of interaction isn't transactional.
Sadly I haven't. Travel is expensive, the US is a big wide country, and other nations don't really want me hanging around unless I marry someone or drop a lot of money
As a non-American, I can confirm that I've noticed that Americans tend to develop lots of superficial friendships, but aren't very willing to open up, which keeps the relationship at arm's length. I remember I was really surprised when a coworker was telling me about how she had some condition, and then immediately apologized for telling me. I didn't understand why someone would apologize for opening up, but in the US that's considered oversharing, and is frowned upon.
Insofar as the "intention" is to expose yourself to multiple varied communities where you might find commonalities, sure. Other approaches carry a heavy whiff of manipulative behavior and should be treated with the appropriate amount of skepticism.
The author literally asked if the people were willing to take part in an experiment and clearly stated the goal. Doesn't sound very manipulative to me.
I will second using “the 36 questions that lead to love” to create close connections quickly.
Combine this with MDMA to supercharge the intensity and speed of connection. This can also be done with a group of 3 to create a tight group that instantly has each other’s backs.
Combine this with MDMA to supercharge the intensity and speed of connection. This can also be done with a group of 3 to create a tight group that instantly has each other’s backs.
Or you’ll just find a group of three people that like amphetamines
It's true that the A in MDMA stands for amphetamine as noted below, but saying that people who use MDMA like amphetamines is like saying that people who use table salt like chlorine. It's the best kind of correct, but misleading.
https://thisvsthat.io/amphetamine-vs-mdma
https://thisvsthat.io/amphetamine-vs-mdma
Clean MDMA is increasingly hard to come by. If you have a good plug, consider yourself lucky. But in the year of our lord 2025, almost all crystalline or powder recreational compounds have been stepped on to an absurd degree.
It takes time to develop relationships that have
1. Longevity. The longer you’ve been friends the more likely you’ll be friends in the future.
2. Trust. Trust in a relationship is anti-fragile. The more times trust is partially damaged but restored, the stronger it becomes.
3. Meaning. The story “we met while looking for friends to do MDMA with, and now we are attached” is cute when you’re 23. What those people mean to you is that you are lovable and able to form bonds out in the world. Good! But shallow.
TLDR; it may be an effective way to have intense but shallow and short-lived connections
1. Longevity. The longer you’ve been friends the more likely you’ll be friends in the future.
2. Trust. Trust in a relationship is anti-fragile. The more times trust is partially damaged but restored, the stronger it becomes.
3. Meaning. The story “we met while looking for friends to do MDMA with, and now we are attached” is cute when you’re 23. What those people mean to you is that you are lovable and able to form bonds out in the world. Good! But shallow.
TLDR; it may be an effective way to have intense but shallow and short-lived connections
Before I tried this process I would have agreed with you, however, we focus on longevity when it’s really intimacy that leads to deep lasting connections. It’s just that with the decades long friendships there is more time and opportunity for intimacy, vulnerability, and going through some shit together.
MDMA + the 36 questions is deep intimacy, vulnerability, and often going through some shit together.
We’re also not seeking friends to do MDMA with. On a few occasions, we’ve met interesting people that there is a strong initial spark of connection with and let them know about the practice. These friendships are now very deep and loving even if only a year or 3 old. They are anything but shallow.
As for short lived, only time will tell, but even if they were to end tomorrow I will have deeply cherished the present experience of these connections. I have one 10+ year friendship that is fading and while it breaks my heart from time to time, I still love this person and would do it all over again.
MDMA + the 36 questions is deep intimacy, vulnerability, and often going through some shit together.
We’re also not seeking friends to do MDMA with. On a few occasions, we’ve met interesting people that there is a strong initial spark of connection with and let them know about the practice. These friendships are now very deep and loving even if only a year or 3 old. They are anything but shallow.
As for short lived, only time will tell, but even if they were to end tomorrow I will have deeply cherished the present experience of these connections. I have one 10+ year friendship that is fading and while it breaks my heart from time to time, I still love this person and would do it all over again.
Genuinely curious to hear more about (2.), has trust's anti-fragility been studied and/or where did this view come from?
I am speaking from experience. The first conflict is always a picture of where a new relationship will lead, and each conflict after that determines whether the relationship will deepen or weaken.
I imagine it’s the kind of thing that has been studied!
I imagine it’s the kind of thing that has been studied!
I don't think MDMA is an amphetamine
It is. Actually, it's a methamphetamine (MA)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA
It seems like a really vapid unintentional and artificial way to do this. why not just be high on life and try it?
> It seems like a really vapid unintentional and artificial way to do this.
It's not like that.
Roughly speaking, MDMA doesn't exactly create an artificial closeness, it's more like it breaks down artificial walls. The effects can last far longer than the high - if you're taking it in the right setting, with the right intention, etc.
> why not just be high on life and try it?
There's a lot to be said for living life drug-free. However, MDMA has genuine therapeutic potential. If a doctor prescribed your friend Prozac, would you say, 'Have you tried not being depressed?' - similar thing. (Yes, some doctors prescribe MDMA.)
It's not like that.
Roughly speaking, MDMA doesn't exactly create an artificial closeness, it's more like it breaks down artificial walls. The effects can last far longer than the high - if you're taking it in the right setting, with the right intention, etc.
> why not just be high on life and try it?
There's a lot to be said for living life drug-free. However, MDMA has genuine therapeutic potential. If a doctor prescribed your friend Prozac, would you say, 'Have you tried not being depressed?' - similar thing. (Yes, some doctors prescribe MDMA.)
Agreed to both. Works well in both cases. I suspect there is a strong selection effect, though.
This could be. At this point in my life I doubt I’ll become close with anyone who is incurious about psychedelics as there seems to be a strong dividing line in mindset between pre-psychedelic and post-psychedelic humans.
I doubt any variation of buzz buddies will produce any meaningful or enduring friendships.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
There are 8.2 billion people alive on Earth ;getting drunk, high or otherwise taking psychoactive drugs is universal among human societies and you think no one has ever had a meaningful or enduring friendship result therefrom?
There are 8.2 billion people alive on Earth ;getting drunk, high or otherwise taking psychoactive drugs is universal among human societies and you think no one has ever had a meaningful or enduring friendship result therefrom?
Sure, until... https://youtu.be/8_BFMEQOH2Q?feature=shared
Do it during the day, properly dosed, don’t mix with alcohol, and get plenty of sleep that night and this is not a problem. The MAPS studies have shown this again and again that the Tuesday blues is related to partying and not intrinsic to the medicine.
Too bad the availability of MDMA is so limited.
Not really? If you know how to use TOR you can just order it online. I do this with LSD all the time and it works fine.
In the US at least this seems pretty insane to me while we have a fentanyl epidemic.
I am sure there are ways to test this but I wouldn't trust myself. Not to mention the illegality of it.
At this point, it is simply criminal MDMA is not available for therapy the way ketamine is.
I am sure there are ways to test this but I wouldn't trust myself. Not to mention the illegality of it.
At this point, it is simply criminal MDMA is not available for therapy the way ketamine is.
there are reagents that can be used to test. I've never used one because I trust my vendor. LSD is almost never cut with stuff (the illegitimate listings usually completely replace with something stupid like NBOMe). Usually if you get real LSD it's not also adulterated. If my vendor were illegitimate I would have died by now since I've taken up to 16 doses at once before.
I would never put a drug ordered off the internet into my body. Pure lab grade LSD which has been tested in an NMR — I probably would. I only have one body and I wouldn’t entrust it to random people on the internet.
I think you could estimate the risk in micromorts from taking LSD from darkweb and find it’s not that different from other activities you do regularly (~multiple times a year, if not more)
You cannot estimate the risk of taking internet LSD, that is the problem.
There is also a history of cutting drugs with other substances to give them a unique effect which brings back return customers (i.e. cutting heroin with fentanyl).
And then there is the possibility that whoever produced the LSD screwed up and/or the end product is not pure.
There is also a history of cutting drugs with other substances to give them a unique effect which brings back return customers (i.e. cutting heroin with fentanyl).
And then there is the possibility that whoever produced the LSD screwed up and/or the end product is not pure.
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the way this is stated is troubling in that it proposes an aysimetric idea of "close friend" which is just one more version of hiarchical structure in human society, rather than something
based on seeing things from the same perspective
and the trust and understanding that comes.....after that discovery
ie: "intentionlly making", vs finding
I would suggest that the quality of the people that inhabit the mutual appreciation societys that pass as friendships amongst the "popular" extroverts is the impetus behind this sort of blind quest, the unrecorded and hard to imagine
blank realisation of the inevitable "stalemates" in there social jockeing, no one there, vulnerable, to anything at all....how dry and tedious, that must be
> This definition of a 'close friend' is problematic as it promotes an asymmetric, hierarchical view, overlooking the importance of shared perspectives, trust, and understanding. Genuine friendships are typically found through mutual discovery, not 'intentionally made'. Perhaps this emphasis on 'making' friends is prevalent among popular extroverts, whose relationships often resemble superficial 'mutual appreciation societies'. This constant social jockeying, devoid of real vulnerability, likely results in unspoken stalemates and a sense of emptiness. Such interactions must surely be dry and tedious.
Agree to some extent. Though isn't one more likely to find an actual friend in a 'mutual appreciation society'?
Agree to some extent. Though isn't one more likely to find an actual friend in a 'mutual appreciation society'?
Could you reword and reformat this? I'm interested in what youre saying but am struggling to understand it fully.
This is incoherent.
being open, honest and as a consequence sometimes vulnerable in conversations -1 to 1 or not- without overly filtering myself to stay appropriate or to protect my ego or image has brought me to having a number of close friendship that I would not have thought possible.
Those people that I now consider my family made me a better person and I would even argue made me into an adult.
I would simplify this in 1 don't be afraid to ask random questions 2 be sincerely interested in knowing about the other person's answer
I find this easier to do when the people are evidently interesting, but more often than not people are interesting after I exercise some curiosity about them.
Those people that I now consider my family made me a better person and I would even argue made me into an adult.
I would simplify this in 1 don't be afraid to ask random questions 2 be sincerely interested in knowing about the other person's answer
I find this easier to do when the people are evidently interesting, but more often than not people are interesting after I exercise some curiosity about them.
I got into open source software back in 2023, and by far the best part of it has been the community around the code. From irl to irc, some of my closest friends I've made since then I've met through programming.
'Friends' are overrated, i.e in the sense that most people use the term i.e conversation/beer buddies.
I subscribe to the minority view as put forth by this saying: 'A friend in need is a friend indeed.'
I subscribe to the minority view as put forth by this saying: 'A friend in need is a friend indeed.'
Suffering together for the same cause or with the same goal goes a long way to make close friends.
It is actually how soldiers become close friends in the army.
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What can you offer to the other person? Both financially or emotionally.
Before trying to make friends, answer this questions. Most likely nothing interesting going on in your life, otherwise other people would try to hang out with you.
Before trying to make friends, answer this questions. Most likely nothing interesting going on in your life, otherwise other people would try to hang out with you.
- I’d love to be friends with other introverts to enjoy quiet times together. but… int-to-int pairs will rarely form in nature, however extroverts are great for mediating the connections. Make friends with the talkative outgoing types, because through them you can meet the other quiet people they’ve befriended but you’d never meet in the wild.
- however, there seem to be some common pitfalls to introvert-extrovert friendships. From my (introvert) side, you can often find yourself getting insecure or jealous of all the other social connections that your extrovert friends have. There’s an asymmetry there that can feed lots of insecurities. I’m sure that there’s something equivalent from the other direction, but I dont know what it is