The Third Generation Nest Thermostat(nest.com)
nest.com
The Third Generation Nest Thermostat
https://nest.com/thermostat/meet-nest-thermostat
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Disagree. I still give the Nest away to family members and friends because of how simple it is to use.
Does the Honeywell integrate with your utility to provide you rebates if you use their load shedding program? Does it have AirWave (the nest calculates how long it can keep running a fan over cold coils after shutting the compressor down to keep cooling your home while saving energy)? Does it integrate with Google Now? Does it show you the history of your heating or air conditioning over the last 7 days? Does it have an API you can interface with?
My 86 year old Grandmother loves her Nest. If she can use it, anyone can. Nest second place in the market. Puh-lease!
Does the Honeywell integrate with your utility to provide you rebates if you use their load shedding program? Does it have AirWave (the nest calculates how long it can keep running a fan over cold coils after shutting the compressor down to keep cooling your home while saving energy)? Does it integrate with Google Now? Does it show you the history of your heating or air conditioning over the last 7 days? Does it have an API you can interface with?
My 86 year old Grandmother loves her Nest. If she can use it, anyone can. Nest second place in the market. Puh-lease!
> I still give the Nest away to family members and friends because of how simple it is to use.
The tap through menus are anything but pleasant. Just watch this video:
https://youtu.be/YD3DfoJ3TVw?t=7m24s
To use a phone analogy it is like using a Nokia 3100 to write text messages, tap tap tap A, tap tap tap B, tap tap tap C. You have to do this literally in some cases to set the name.
Contrast that with this:
https://youtu.be/CmvX6YgAqMI?t=1m18s
To use the phone analogy once again, this is like using an iPhone to write text messages.
One is a modern accessible UX not dissimilar from a smartphone, the other is clunky and dated, you're working around limitations of the physical design.
> Does the Honeywell integrate with your utility to provide you rebates if you use their load shedding program?
Neither the Nest or Honeywell do.
> Does it have AirWave, integrate with Google Now, an API
It is a thermostat. It might have some of these, but they're beyond the scope of what I expect or would use from either one.
It does offer history, most smart thermostats do.
> Nest second place in the market. Puh-lease!
That's what people said about Blackberry too. I think touchscreen interfaces are a proven technology that consumers love.
The Nest could come back from this, they can offer additional product lines that address what their competitors are doing.
Some people legitimately do want a minimalist product. There is a real market for that. Others want a straight forward product with an iPad-like UX.
The tap through menus are anything but pleasant. Just watch this video:
https://youtu.be/YD3DfoJ3TVw?t=7m24s
To use a phone analogy it is like using a Nokia 3100 to write text messages, tap tap tap A, tap tap tap B, tap tap tap C. You have to do this literally in some cases to set the name.
Contrast that with this:
https://youtu.be/CmvX6YgAqMI?t=1m18s
To use the phone analogy once again, this is like using an iPhone to write text messages.
One is a modern accessible UX not dissimilar from a smartphone, the other is clunky and dated, you're working around limitations of the physical design.
> Does the Honeywell integrate with your utility to provide you rebates if you use their load shedding program?
Neither the Nest or Honeywell do.
> Does it have AirWave, integrate with Google Now, an API
It is a thermostat. It might have some of these, but they're beyond the scope of what I expect or would use from either one.
It does offer history, most smart thermostats do.
> Nest second place in the market. Puh-lease!
That's what people said about Blackberry too. I think touchscreen interfaces are a proven technology that consumers love.
The Nest could come back from this, they can offer additional product lines that address what their competitors are doing.
Some people legitimately do want a minimalist product. There is a real market for that. Others want a straight forward product with an iPad-like UX.
Frankly, the market will decide. As long as competitors include the right hardware, they can always iterate on software repeatedly.
The Nest sales numbers are terribly high compared to Honeywell, and Nest has Google behind it. I wouldn't want to be Honeywell.
The Nest sales numbers are terribly high compared to Honeywell, and Nest has Google behind it. I wouldn't want to be Honeywell.
In my (recent) experience, Honeywell owns the HVAC contractor market, which is where these decisions are being made on installation, repair, and maintenance.
Limited sample size but between three furnace + air quotes proposed in August 2015, all three contractors recommended the Honeywell and all three contractors dismissed the Nest as a gimmick with lackluster functionality compared to the Honeywell.
Limited sample size but between three furnace + air quotes proposed in August 2015, all three contractors recommended the Honeywell and all three contractors dismissed the Nest as a gimmick with lackluster functionality compared to the Honeywell.
Over a year ago, Nest was selling 100K thermostats a month:
http://www.businessinsider.com/nest-revenue-2014-1
http://www.businessinsider.com/nest-revenue-2014-1
I worked at Nest on their professional distribution channel for some time. The thermostat market is dominated by professional sales (80-90% are sold and installed by professional HVAC contractors) whereas Nest traditionally sold through to a consumer/DIY audience. Nest has a very steep uphill battle against Honeywell the way Apple has had an uphill battle against Windows in large enterprise. Nest just has more mindshare amongst the tech/early adopter community.
I don't disagree its an uphill battle. I'm arguing that Google is a cash machine, and Honeywell is not. Google could continue forever trying to push Nest if they wanted to.
The only thing you really need for a perfect thermostat is a 10GBP PID controller, thermoprobe and SSR.
And your Grandma won't even have to use it because it will maintain perfect 22C all year long due to its dual cooling/heating outputs.
And your Grandma won't even have to use it because it will maintain perfect 22C all year long due to its dual cooling/heating outputs.
That's a silly question. Of course it doesn't have AirWave. AirWave is Nest's trademarked name for the very simple technology of continuing to run the fan a bit after the compressor has switched off.
But even old cheap digital thermostats with chicklet keys know to run the fan after turning off the furnace or AC[1].
[1] http://inspectapedia.com/heat/Thermostat_FAN_Switch.php
But even old cheap digital thermostats with chicklet keys know to run the fan after turning off the furnace or AC[1].
[1] http://inspectapedia.com/heat/Thermostat_FAN_Switch.php
Does the Honeywell integrate with your utility to provide you rebates if you use their load shedding program?
Are you saying the Nest now has direct integration with utility real-time programs, or is this just a rebate check you get from your utility for buying the setback thermostat?
Are you saying the Nest now has direct integration with utility real-time programs, or is this just a rebate check you get from your utility for buying the setback thermostat?
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by utility real-time programs, but yes, this probably is they meant. Nest knows where you live (I don't mean that in a creepy way), and they can help you enroll in what are called "demand response" or "load control" programs in your area. When you enroll, you get an incentive like a bill credit or a free thermostat, and you give the utility permission to turn your AC off for a little while at some point during the summer.
Many of these utility programs actively recruit customers, so chances are (a) you'll get a chance to sign up even if you own a different type of connected (e.g. WiFi) thermostat, and (b) the sign up process won't be hard.
Many of these utility programs actively recruit customers, so chances are (a) you'll get a chance to sign up even if you own a different type of connected (e.g. WiFi) thermostat, and (b) the sign up process won't be hard.
Some utilities (like ComEd in Chicago) have a real-time program where the price of electricity changes every 5 minutes in response to supply and demand.
https://rrtp.comed.com/live-prices/
I was asking if Nest can observe and respond to that data, which it looks like it still cannot.
https://rrtp.comed.com/live-prices/
I was asking if Nest can observe and respond to that data, which it looks like it still cannot.
As ocdtrekkie mentioned, yes. When its cheaper for the utility to shed demand rather than spin up peaking plants, they issue a signal to Google/Nest, who then uses a push notification and temporarily shut down air conditioning compressors at utility customers who've signed up for the program.
Your house gets a couple of degrees warmer but you get a discount, your utility doesn't need additional generating capacity, and Google charges a fee to run the program.
Your house gets a couple of degrees warmer but you get a discount, your utility doesn't need additional generating capacity, and Google charges a fee to run the program.
They actually do. Back when I had a Nest, I got $100 from ComEd for signing up for, and then $40 for keeping signed up all summer, for a program where they could go in and tweak my thermostat up a few degrees during peak load to prevent brownouts.
Yes, Nest partners with the utility directly. I don't know what level of integration is involved. It's more likely that the utility has access to an API that can do things remotely to the thermostats of those enrolled in the program.
Huh, I worked on that thermostat (or a prototype with a similar feature set) at Honeywell in 2003 right after graduating from college. Given how dysfunctional the company seemed to be, I'm not surprised it would take them a decade to ship.
[deleted]
IIRC, Honeywell (I'm pretty sure, but it might have been a different major manufacturer) recently had some pretty serious security vulnerabilities with some of their models.
Can anyone with a Nest tell me if it's possible to turn off all the smart features and turn it into a dumb on/off switch? I really like the design but don't care for any of the complicated smart features and would much rather be able manually control it from my phone. I recall that this was not possible with reviews of the first gen Nest.
Yes, there are individual settings to turn off the 'Sense' features like the learning-schedule, auto-away.
If you literally mean using it as an on/off switch... I don't think you can do that without just cranking the temp between min and max. There is a function to run the furnace fan for X minutes, but you can't directly tell it to run the heating and AC for a period of time.
If you literally mean using it as an on/off switch... I don't think you can do that without just cranking the temp between min and max. There is a function to run the furnace fan for X minutes, but you can't directly tell it to run the heating and AC for a period of time.
Yes you can do that. The app and hardware let you set it to either heat, cool, heat/cool, or off. There are probably cheaper ways to do this (IoT hub + zwave controller?).
Yes, you can, very simply. Just turn off learning and don't put in any schedule.
Still no HomeKit support? Worst part of the Google acquisition, IMO. I've actually considered replacing my Nest with one of their competitors that does support HomeKit.
I set up SiriProxy a couple years ago, mainly for the Nest support. I think that broke with iOS 7 though.
I set up SiriProxy a couple years ago, mainly for the Nest support. I think that broke with iOS 7 though.
I have a nest and like it, but the issue that I hope they have fixed is the inability to calibrate the temperature against a secondary thermometer. This is a major issue as the device is designed to work with a large span of voltages that cause significantly different internal heat dissipation. On a friend's older 35v system, the nest read around 26°C when the room was in fact closer to 22.
What is the failure mode of a Nest these days? i.e. if it crashes or otherwise has a failure what mode does it default to? This isn't a purely theoretical concern as I know someone who had an older Nest fail and they said it defaulted to just being off. I'm sure this is a rare event (and could theoretically happen with any thermostat or the furnace itself of course) but living in the Northeast and traveling a lot I hesitate to introduce anything into my furnace control system that could increase the potential probability of failure.
What failure mode would you want, if not off? Having a failed sensor+controller control temperature in any way isn't what I'd want. One could have a backup thermostat as a fallback, but I doubt their average customer wants anything that complicated.
The problem is that a failure mode of "off", in the winter, in cold climates, means you come home to $30,000 of water damage and pipe replacement which probably won't be covered by home insurance.
The "fail safe" mode here needs to be "maintain moderate temperatures, neither burning nor freezing". Simple mechanical thermostats do this extremely well.
The "fail safe" mode here needs to be "maintain moderate temperatures, neither burning nor freezing". Simple mechanical thermostats do this extremely well.
>Simple mechanical thermostats do this extremely well.
But they don't have api with which to auto post your daily temperature to tumblr. Or security vulnerabilities.
But they don't have api with which to auto post your daily temperature to tumblr. Or security vulnerabilities.
What exactly are the main differences here between this third gen and the previous version?
I'm wondering the same. All I can get from the marketing copy are the following:
* "It’s slimmer and sleeker with a bigger, sharper display"
* "Now the Nest Thermostat does something new. It’s called Farsight and it lights up to show you the temperature you’ve set or the time. You can even choose a digital or analog clock face."
* "It’s slimmer and sleeker with a bigger, sharper display"
* "Now the Nest Thermostat does something new. It’s called Farsight and it lights up to show you the temperature you’ve set or the time. You can even choose a digital or analog clock face."
You can see comparison images of the three here:
https://nest.com/support/article/How-can-I-tell-which-Nest-L...
They appear to have both reduced the brazel size and increased the display's size. Additionally it is a little thinner than the 2nd gen and massively thinner than the 1st gen.
Definitely an improvement at the same price point.
https://nest.com/support/article/How-can-I-tell-which-Nest-L...
They appear to have both reduced the brazel size and increased the display's size. Additionally it is a little thinner than the 2nd gen and massively thinner than the 1st gen.
Definitely an improvement at the same price point.
Definitely an improvement at the same price point.
Sure, but not a big enough difference (for most folks) to consider upgrading from a 2nd-gen.
Sure, but not a big enough difference (for most folks) to consider upgrading from a 2nd-gen.
> Sure, but not a big enough difference (for most folks) to consider upgrading from a 2nd-gen.
Agreed, but thermostats really shouldn't be something we have to replace every 1-2 years anyways.
Hell, I've a v1 (.12) Nest and see nothing compelling to make me upgrade - and that makes me happy.
Agreed, but thermostats really shouldn't be something we have to replace every 1-2 years anyways.
Hell, I've a v1 (.12) Nest and see nothing compelling to make me upgrade - and that makes me happy.
Agreed, but thermostats really shouldn't be something we have to replace every 1-2 years anyways.
Neither are phones and laptops, really. The difference is that those advance at a rate that makes an upgrade compelling. I have a Mid-2009 Macbook Pro. It's fine. I put an SSD in it recently and it's even better than fine. The only time I get the impulse to replace it is when I'm near a newer Macbook. In a vacuum, it's all I'd ever need. Sadly (for my wallet), it doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Neither are phones and laptops, really. The difference is that those advance at a rate that makes an upgrade compelling. I have a Mid-2009 Macbook Pro. It's fine. I put an SSD in it recently and it's even better than fine. The only time I get the impulse to replace it is when I'm near a newer Macbook. In a vacuum, it's all I'd ever need. Sadly (for my wallet), it doesn't exist in a vacuum.
I'd agree with that. Maybe from the 1st gen to the 3rd?
I have 2 of the second gen nests. There is a plate that installs on the wall(with screws and attaches to the wire), then it kind of snaps into place on the mount. It feels pretty substantial, and I don't worry that it will pop off inadvertently. So while the nest itself is nicely built, I feel like the wall plate is kind of chintzy and doesn't really look "professional".
The wall plate is only needed if your drywall is already has a large cutout. When I took my old thermostat off the hole was small enough that I just painted around it and was able to mount the Nest without the mounting plate. I agree, it doesn't look quite as good with the mounting plate.
agreed, and my wall did have an unnecessarily large cut out(house was built in 78 and it had some monstrous analog thermostat on it).
It's definitely better without the plate, but if you have a giant hole in your drywall, or it's not painted there, or what-have-you, it's nice to have the option in the interim.
Still doesn't support OpenTherm, and therefor useless (or at least of limited use) for much of Europe.
Why does anyone need a bigger display on their thermostat? In fact, having a dedicated display at all is only vaguely justifiable, since we all have displays in our pockets, on our walls, etc.
They specifically said they went with a larger display so they can detect when you enter the room and display the temperature in a font size you can see from anywhere in said room.
But why would I want that? I only check my thermostat if I think it's misbehaving. Does the Nest misbehave that much?
I'm not saying I find it a need. (And I can check my phone if I want to know, regardless of what room I'm in.) But that's why they did it.
In the video you seem to stick it to your wall. Is that really how its done?
You wire a plastic Nest bracket up[0], the bracket redirects the inputs, and when you place the Nest into the bracket it makes the correct contacts with the back of the thermostat.
Wiring up a Nest isn't too bad, you just need the precious C wire. Most of these fancy thermostats require the C wire for electrical power, and many homes lack it. They have a work around, but it requires re-wiring and you lose some functionality (do not recommend).
PS - No idea why nobody offers an AC adapter as an alternative to the C wire. All the C does is provide electrical power anyway...
[0] The middle white thing: http://i.imgur.com/kNUPqvF.jpg
Wiring up a Nest isn't too bad, you just need the precious C wire. Most of these fancy thermostats require the C wire for electrical power, and many homes lack it. They have a work around, but it requires re-wiring and you lose some functionality (do not recommend).
PS - No idea why nobody offers an AC adapter as an alternative to the C wire. All the C does is provide electrical power anyway...
[0] The middle white thing: http://i.imgur.com/kNUPqvF.jpg
You don't need a C wire for the Nest, although if you have one it's recommended to use it. The Nest has a small internal battery and can trickle-charge from the R and W wires.
As others have mentioned, there can be issues with running without a C wire. Their "power stealing" technique did not seem to be effective for keeping my first-generation Nest from running out of battery. (Although there may be some variables in my situation that contribute to the problem.) I blogged about it here: http://cafbit.com/entry/nest_learning_thermostat
If you dive into the details there's a ton of disclaimers, limitations, and gotchas running without the C wire. See [0] amongst others. As I said above, I do not recommend.
Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. This is definitely one of those cases. If you want your Nest to be running problem free on most systems (or any other smart thermostat for that matter), just assume you need the C.
[0] https://nest.com/support/article/When-Nest-needs-a-common-C-...
Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. This is definitely one of those cases. If you want your Nest to be running problem free on most systems (or any other smart thermostat for that matter), just assume you need the C.
[0] https://nest.com/support/article/When-Nest-needs-a-common-C-...
They say it's only "recommended", but my furnace was short cycling without it and required me to run a C wire to it. I'd say that it's pretty much mandatory for a modern furnace.
I've been running mine for a few months without the C wire, but I've definitely had the occasional bit of odd behaviour from it (eg, dead battery), that I believe will be resolved when I get around to running it some 18/5.
FWIW, the Lux Geo can run on on 24VAC, AA batteries, or micro-USB. I don't know how long the batteries last though.
There are lots of reasons why most fancy thermostats need a lot of power. For example, a fancy screen is hungry, WiFi is an expensive protocol (e.g. as compared to ZWave), etc.. Compare the Lux screen to the Nest, and you'll see at least one reason why they think they can get away with batteries.
Another option, patented by Honeywell I think, is called "power stealing." Here's an interesting article on the subject: https://www.ecobee.com/2014/01/the-problem-with-power-steali....
There are lots of reasons why most fancy thermostats need a lot of power. For example, a fancy screen is hungry, WiFi is an expensive protocol (e.g. as compared to ZWave), etc.. Compare the Lux screen to the Nest, and you'll see at least one reason why they think they can get away with batteries.
Another option, patented by Honeywell I think, is called "power stealing." Here's an interesting article on the subject: https://www.ecobee.com/2014/01/the-problem-with-power-steali....
> They have a work around, but it requires re-wiring and you lose some functionality (do not recommend).
Are you talking about re-purposing the G wire to become the C wire? I had to do that just recently, and I lost the ability to cycle the fan on by itself (without calling for heat or cooling). Not a big loss in my opinion, but my system is dead simple.
The most infuriating thing about it is that the previous HVAC installer cut the fifth wire off instead of sparing it out.
Are you talking about re-purposing the G wire to become the C wire? I had to do that just recently, and I lost the ability to cycle the fan on by itself (without calling for heat or cooling). Not a big loss in my opinion, but my system is dead simple.
The most infuriating thing about it is that the previous HVAC installer cut the fifth wire off instead of sparing it out.
You're sticking it to the backplate, which holds the wires that run to your furnace. No difference between v2 and v3 in this - the video shows it.
Like Aral Balkan said... "dumb fucks"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8supIUj6c&feature=youtu.be...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8supIUj6c&feature=youtu.be...
I was really hoping to see software upgrades available to existing nest customers.
I don't need a thinner version with a larger screen (it's nice, but it's not a smartphone and I don't think most people will care).
Tesla gives you a better car with ota firmware updates. How come a thermostat startup with Google's resources can't do the same thing or better?
I don't need a thinner version with a larger screen (it's nice, but it's not a smartphone and I don't think most people will care).
Tesla gives you a better car with ota firmware updates. How come a thermostat startup with Google's resources can't do the same thing or better?
Nest largely created this market, and their product is fine. But since the Nest appeared their competitors have upped their game and in my opinion overtaken the Nest. For example the "Honeywell Wi-Fi Smart Thermostat," same price as the Nest, arguably easier to use, and doesn't require a third party app or website to get basic things done.
Nest might win awards for simplicity and design, and it is still better than traditional black & white thermostats with push buttons, but it definitely isn't leading the market at this point, in fact I'd argue Nest is sacrificing the user experience for the sake of that design.
I can teach my grandparents to use the Honeywell Smart Thermostat, I cannot say the same about Nest beyond the basics.