Massachusetts Right to Repair Initiative(en.wikipedia.org)
en.wikipedia.org
Massachusetts Right to Repair Initiative
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Right_to_Repair_Initiative
129 コメント
Spot on.
Many manufacturers use extended OBD (UDS protocol) commands to handle specific tasks. Sometimes the DIDs (requestable variables) get "discovered" by reverse engineering the dealership's software (or other third party vehicle specific diagnostic software).
Most cars after 2008 use CANbus for the OBD port, so you can perform tasks and observe the messages using a cheap microcontroller+CANbus controller.
Also, I don't know if you work on BMWs often, but I just wanted to add that you can clear/reset the battery subsystem on a modern BMW/Mini using a $20 K/D-CAN cable from eBay and illegally obtained BMW INPA software.
You can use INPA to perform many tasks. Rain sensor recalibration, battery recalibration, ABS bleed procedure, transmission adaptation reset, etc...
Either way, this is well beyond the ability of the average mechanic, which is why this issue is important.
My father runs a body shop and he constantly has to call the "computer guy" to reset airbag lights. Some cars even require a reset procedure when headlights are changed...it's crazy.
The only good thing is that since so many cars use CANbus everywhere, it's pretty hackable if you want to spend the time to figure out the message IDs and encoding.
Many manufacturers use extended OBD (UDS protocol) commands to handle specific tasks. Sometimes the DIDs (requestable variables) get "discovered" by reverse engineering the dealership's software (or other third party vehicle specific diagnostic software).
Most cars after 2008 use CANbus for the OBD port, so you can perform tasks and observe the messages using a cheap microcontroller+CANbus controller.
Also, I don't know if you work on BMWs often, but I just wanted to add that you can clear/reset the battery subsystem on a modern BMW/Mini using a $20 K/D-CAN cable from eBay and illegally obtained BMW INPA software.
You can use INPA to perform many tasks. Rain sensor recalibration, battery recalibration, ABS bleed procedure, transmission adaptation reset, etc...
Either way, this is well beyond the ability of the average mechanic, which is why this issue is important.
My father runs a body shop and he constantly has to call the "computer guy" to reset airbag lights. Some cars even require a reset procedure when headlights are changed...it's crazy.
The only good thing is that since so many cars use CANbus everywhere, it's pretty hackable if you want to spend the time to figure out the message IDs and encoding.
Agree with Unklejoe but disagree with oppositelock that CANbus make modern cars MORE HACKABLE [0] rather than "more difficult" to work on. I am not even sure if it's true for the mechanical part but definitely not the electronics and computerized components, ECU included.
Charlie Miller, a famous InfoSec expert who previous known for hacking iPhone was able to take complete control of a JEEP remotely [1]. I doubt that's possible for the older JEEPs without ECUs and cellular connectivity. And this is just a start, not only for JEEP but a lot of other cars too[3]. With EVs are gradually coming into mainstream, soon average consumers might be able to "fix" their EVs whereas they can't for the previous internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles without even getting their hands dirty[4].
[0]: http://www.instructables.com/id/Hack-your-vehicle-CAN-BUS-wi...
[1]: http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-high...
[2]: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-02/24/nissan-car-ha...
[3]: http://www.canbushack.com/blog/index.php
[4]: http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/10/11/coding-tutorial-bmw-i3-ele...
Charlie Miller, a famous InfoSec expert who previous known for hacking iPhone was able to take complete control of a JEEP remotely [1]. I doubt that's possible for the older JEEPs without ECUs and cellular connectivity. And this is just a start, not only for JEEP but a lot of other cars too[3]. With EVs are gradually coming into mainstream, soon average consumers might be able to "fix" their EVs whereas they can't for the previous internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles without even getting their hands dirty[4].
[0]: http://www.instructables.com/id/Hack-your-vehicle-CAN-BUS-wi...
[1]: http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-high...
[2]: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-02/24/nissan-car-ha...
[3]: http://www.canbushack.com/blog/index.php
[4]: http://www.bmwblog.com/2014/10/11/coding-tutorial-bmw-i3-ele...
I think both statements are true, the cars are more difficult to work on for the garage mechanic, and the additional computerized systems make the cars more hackable as well.
I'm appalled at the lack of security in modern cars. Cars have a single CANbus and abuse it to intermingle important control protocols with silly things like trip odometers you can see on your stereo. The internet connected systems aren't in the least bit secure - look at what happened with the Nissan LEAF, which had an API without any sort of authentication where the VIN number was sufficient to access private data - jeez, nobody could ever guess the VIN for a car could they, it's not like it's printed on the windshield...oh wait. I hope that companies like Automatic have taken precautions against people using their dongles as an attack vector for cars.
Anyhow, I'm one of the people who does hack into my cars, mostly to learn how the systems work, but I don't represent the average case, since 20 years of building hardware and software gives me a background that most mechanics don't have. This stuff takes a lot of time to do, both to research then to make sure you've not screwed something up. It's not hard to brick an ECU, I've done it once, and replacing it is annoying too, due to regulations, the embedded VIN in the ECU and such, especially in CA where I live.
On the upside, there are passionate hobbyists who do reverse engineer these cars, and there is a treasure trove of information on the web on how to hack your cars if you have the knowhow.
I'm appalled at the lack of security in modern cars. Cars have a single CANbus and abuse it to intermingle important control protocols with silly things like trip odometers you can see on your stereo. The internet connected systems aren't in the least bit secure - look at what happened with the Nissan LEAF, which had an API without any sort of authentication where the VIN number was sufficient to access private data - jeez, nobody could ever guess the VIN for a car could they, it's not like it's printed on the windshield...oh wait. I hope that companies like Automatic have taken precautions against people using their dongles as an attack vector for cars.
Anyhow, I'm one of the people who does hack into my cars, mostly to learn how the systems work, but I don't represent the average case, since 20 years of building hardware and software gives me a background that most mechanics don't have. This stuff takes a lot of time to do, both to research then to make sure you've not screwed something up. It's not hard to brick an ECU, I've done it once, and replacing it is annoying too, due to regulations, the embedded VIN in the ECU and such, especially in CA where I live.
On the upside, there are passionate hobbyists who do reverse engineer these cars, and there is a treasure trove of information on the web on how to hack your cars if you have the knowhow.
What can ordinary people do (besides call their favorite politician, LOL)? "Only buy cars built before the 80s" is going to be less and less a viable option over time. Is there even a single auto manufacturer building repairable cars anymore?
This is the same question I ask every time I'm shopping for a new computer, where is my open firmware mainboard / CPU / no proprietary microcode / open source hard drive firmware / etc computer so I can actually inspect, improve, and trust the pieces I rely on every day for my work.
The Raptor Talos Workstation is the closest thing we have to a enthusiast car without wholly proprietary internals, which is just incredibly bad.
The Raptor Talos Workstation is the closest thing we have to a enthusiast car without wholly proprietary internals, which is just incredibly bad.
Note, the Massachusetts Right to Repair came from a ballot measure, so it didn't require calling a politician and passed with huge support from the general public (86% Yes).
If your state has this option[1], you can bring ballots forward on this topic and it should be possible to get signatures and they are extremely likely to pass. (I originally said easy to get signatures, but getting 365,880 signatures, as is currently required in California, would not be easy, but should be possible if you are a good organizer.)
[1] https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_Measures_overview
If your state has this option[1], you can bring ballots forward on this topic and it should be possible to get signatures and they are extremely likely to pass. (I originally said easy to get signatures, but getting 365,880 signatures, as is currently required in California, would not be easy, but should be possible if you are a good organizer.)
[1] https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_Measures_overview
This was actually passed using a common Massachusetts strategy to force the hands of the members of the Great and General Court (the legislature).
You run a petition campaign to get a good, but draconian, measure on the ballot. You do this carefully, and gather a solid margin of extra signatures. When you're about 50% there, you schedule a demonstration at the State House. If you can turn out 200-300 people at the State House, it's good. You do a little "What do we want? Open Systems. When do we want them? Now!" chanting, and you talk to the press. You then get people to talk to their reps and state senators, and ask for THEIR signatures (as voters) on the initiative. If they oppose it, they have to look a constituent in the eye and say "no."
Then you finish the signature drive, in plenty of time to get the signatures certified by the town clerks.
Then, the legislature should be primed to pass good legislation to head off the good ballot bill. In this case (right to repair) the ballot bill passed anyway, because the legislature was distracted (the Speaker was being prosecuted for corruption).
That's how we got the law commonly and wrongly known as Romneycare passed. In that case, the legislature did their jobs when forced.
It's NEVER a bad thing to have your state senator know who you are.
You run a petition campaign to get a good, but draconian, measure on the ballot. You do this carefully, and gather a solid margin of extra signatures. When you're about 50% there, you schedule a demonstration at the State House. If you can turn out 200-300 people at the State House, it's good. You do a little "What do we want? Open Systems. When do we want them? Now!" chanting, and you talk to the press. You then get people to talk to their reps and state senators, and ask for THEIR signatures (as voters) on the initiative. If they oppose it, they have to look a constituent in the eye and say "no."
Then you finish the signature drive, in plenty of time to get the signatures certified by the town clerks.
Then, the legislature should be primed to pass good legislation to head off the good ballot bill. In this case (right to repair) the ballot bill passed anyway, because the legislature was distracted (the Speaker was being prosecuted for corruption).
That's how we got the law commonly and wrongly known as Romneycare passed. In that case, the legislature did their jobs when forced.
It's NEVER a bad thing to have your state senator know who you are.
The US OBD/OBD-II standards came about in 1990s, when fuel injection was already a several decades old technology. Although, truthfully, it first became common around the 1980s.
Still, I am happy my 1974 Citroën DS 23 has fuel injection. Even if it means some extra difficulty getting to the cylinders and to the engine itself. But you are right, I am usually advised not to tinker with the fuel injection itself. Then again, on this model, people's experience is that there is usually no problem with the fuel injection anyway. And I have had no problems with it so far.
Still, I am happy my 1974 Citroën DS 23 has fuel injection. Even if it means some extra difficulty getting to the cylinders and to the engine itself. But you are right, I am usually advised not to tinker with the fuel injection itself. Then again, on this model, people's experience is that there is usually no problem with the fuel injection anyway. And I have had no problems with it so far.
I have a 1985 VW Westfalia (Digijet - pre-computer, pre-ODB, direct port injection), and it's a Donald Drumpf PITA to tune. The '86 Digifant is even worse, having a full, new ECU and mixed parts of the '85 control system.
Everything else though is really simple with the service manual. One neat feature though is that many VW/Audi engines have a hall effect sensor built into the engine block for precise timing using a Grundig VAG 1367 which the dealer used... but it's also easy enough these days to just make your own timing system with a BeagleBoard or Arduino because the 3 pin port is a very simple circuit documented in the service manual.
The only engine mod I'm planning on doing is bypass the useless auxilliary air valve, which does not advance timing or fast idle when cold.. and do that with the engine and additional ambient air sensor to vary the fast-idle vacuum passage... it stalls when cold and no VW "expert" shop can be trusted to fix it without ruining something else. Fixing it yourself when you know exactly what is wrong is better than relying on someone else motivated to go as slow and as expensive as possible with an unknown outcome.
Everything else though is really simple with the service manual. One neat feature though is that many VW/Audi engines have a hall effect sensor built into the engine block for precise timing using a Grundig VAG 1367 which the dealer used... but it's also easy enough these days to just make your own timing system with a BeagleBoard or Arduino because the 3 pin port is a very simple circuit documented in the service manual.
The only engine mod I'm planning on doing is bypass the useless auxilliary air valve, which does not advance timing or fast idle when cold.. and do that with the engine and additional ambient air sensor to vary the fast-idle vacuum passage... it stalls when cold and no VW "expert" shop can be trusted to fix it without ruining something else. Fixing it yourself when you know exactly what is wrong is better than relying on someone else motivated to go as slow and as expensive as possible with an unknown outcome.
> Still, I am happy my 1974 Citroën DS 23 has fuel injection.
The most beautiful car ever made. I had the pleasure of driving two of these for years, still miss them 20 years later.
Enjoy your ride!
The most beautiful car ever made. I had the pleasure of driving two of these for years, still miss them 20 years later.
Enjoy your ride!
Tell me about it - VW wants me to bring my car to the dealership in order to receive a software update for the infotainment system (media player, bluetooth- and iOS-connectivity, radio and so on). Apparently it's a simple flash via SD card and I can't see why I couldn't do this myself.
My Mazda is the same way (except it's flashed from a USB stick). I didn't bother; there's people posting these firmware files on the internet, so you can download it and do it yourself. Why should I take a few hours out of my day to drive to a dealership to do this when I can do it myself in 15 minutes in my garage?
Not long ago I had to take a friend's ferrari 599 to get the ecu reset and adjusted for the tune of $16k. I had changed the both MAF sensors and adjusted the clutch on the transmission. Fucking nuts.
> The gov't mandated the OBD and OBD-II standards into cars to allow independent servicing of the car
So, seems like these work, and the way to solve it is to force standard compliance through them.
So, seems like these work, and the way to solve it is to force standard compliance through them.
and this is why certain 4x4 enthusiasts enjoy driving 25 year old diesel vehicles.
Only the hipsters and the luddites seek those out. They're too overprices for something you'll intentionally drive into a tree at some point. Most 4x4 enthusiasts are using pre-OBD2 and 1st gen OBD2 vehicles since they're cheap and plentiful.
I like my old 12 valve Cummins because it has power, and gets 24 MPG on the highway.
24mpg at what speed in what conditions? Low speed in the plains states, the kind of speed that nobody actually drives at, I can believe that. We all know how aerodynamics work (I'm betting you drive a 2nd gen)...
We both know a stock 12v is grossly under-powered by early-mid 2000s standards.
And if you've got a close to stock (nobody gets 24mpg with 35s and a lift) 12v powered vehicle that isn't a completely clapped out POS or very, very rusty you're probably not wheeling it much if at all...
Was I close?
We both know a stock 12v is grossly under-powered by early-mid 2000s standards.
And if you've got a close to stock (nobody gets 24mpg with 35s and a lift) 12v powered vehicle that isn't a completely clapped out POS or very, very rusty you're probably not wheeling it much if at all...
Was I close?
Driving the speed limit, on the highway. If you ever hear the turbo, back out of it. IP timing was tweaked just a bit, but other than that it is a bone stock 1996 Dodge 3500. And, yeah, it's a clapped out just rolled 300,000 mile truck.
I'm not into 4x4s at all but I like pure mechanical diesels for their simplicity and overall robustness (and distinctive sound, especially the 2-stroke variety) - no electrics or electronics at all, so completely immune to EMP, and doesn't generate any electrical noise on its own either. On the other hand, the emissions aren't great but I suppose they could be tuned to minimise that; it's just that most diesel enthusiasts are tuning for power (and smoke) instead.
I'm looking for a pre 98 dodge exactly for these reasons.
Which make/model of new car(s) would you say is the least locked down, or easiest to repair?
This is a very old, very long running battle. Henry Ford said he would give the cars away if he could get all the repair and parts money later. Mr. Ford obviously understood the Gillette business plan.
The OBD2 connector in your car is one result of this battle from 1996. Every brand of car before that had a different plug, nothing was standardized before that. OBD2 fixed that, caused other minor issues like plug was the same, but some wires were different.
I use to sell automotive repair information and equipment. 15 years ago I was selling 5 years of info for $10,000 . It was 200 ish per month on financing. Yes, they financed future software releases, five years ahead of time........ think about that for a sec.
Now its all online, you pay a monthly fee to access. https://www.shopkeypro.com/ now only $169 and it DOES NOT include everything, only what the manufacturers will share.
The current offerings by the way are no better than 15 years ago. The drawings look like a child did them with crayon. The software is crap, but there is basically no competition, so who cares?
My friends that own auto shops tell me that they are not renewing, many of them say they get better info from Youtube, and it has video that the repair manuals don't.
If anyone wants to disrupt auto repair information, there are 300,000 businesses out there that need it. Snap-on/Mitchell sucks, and the product is severely dated. Last time I looked at their shop management software it was running a MS Access database. Plain text data, you could hijack their customer records into a SaaS and include repair info from Youtube. Shops pay $169-hundreds more per month now for a crappy product.
PM me if you want to discuss further.
I hope the MA repair info law goes nationwide. We have only been waiting 100 years.
The OBD2 connector in your car is one result of this battle from 1996. Every brand of car before that had a different plug, nothing was standardized before that. OBD2 fixed that, caused other minor issues like plug was the same, but some wires were different.
I use to sell automotive repair information and equipment. 15 years ago I was selling 5 years of info for $10,000 . It was 200 ish per month on financing. Yes, they financed future software releases, five years ahead of time........ think about that for a sec.
Now its all online, you pay a monthly fee to access. https://www.shopkeypro.com/ now only $169 and it DOES NOT include everything, only what the manufacturers will share.
The current offerings by the way are no better than 15 years ago. The drawings look like a child did them with crayon. The software is crap, but there is basically no competition, so who cares?
My friends that own auto shops tell me that they are not renewing, many of them say they get better info from Youtube, and it has video that the repair manuals don't.
If anyone wants to disrupt auto repair information, there are 300,000 businesses out there that need it. Snap-on/Mitchell sucks, and the product is severely dated. Last time I looked at their shop management software it was running a MS Access database. Plain text data, you could hijack their customer records into a SaaS and include repair info from Youtube. Shops pay $169-hundreds more per month now for a crappy product.
PM me if you want to discuss further.
I hope the MA repair info law goes nationwide. We have only been waiting 100 years.
> I hope the MA repair info law goes nationwide.
Worldwide.
Worldwide.
We need more than the MA law. We need to have the law change to permit completely replacing engine control systems while maintaining a street legal car. There are open ECU's available which you can retrofit into any car, but they're illegal for street use because of the way emissions laws are structured.
The US law is very proscriptive - you musth have the factory ECU with the factory tune with the factory catalyst, etc. Instead, we need results based laws for this stuff, something like a limit on engine emissions on a particular duty cycle, and leave it to the aftermarket companies to figure that out.
Right now, most engine mods you do are not technically legal, especially in CA and the handful of other states which have adopted its emissions laws, so you try to hide what you've done and not get caught, even though you have perfectly clean emissions. Unfortunately, lots of people turn their cars into gross polluters because they like the loudness of straight pipes or want the extra few HP from an open exhaust, and in an attempt to stop these, the laws are making it more difficult for the rest of us.
The US law is very proscriptive - you musth have the factory ECU with the factory tune with the factory catalyst, etc. Instead, we need results based laws for this stuff, something like a limit on engine emissions on a particular duty cycle, and leave it to the aftermarket companies to figure that out.
Right now, most engine mods you do are not technically legal, especially in CA and the handful of other states which have adopted its emissions laws, so you try to hide what you've done and not get caught, even though you have perfectly clean emissions. Unfortunately, lots of people turn their cars into gross polluters because they like the loudness of straight pipes or want the extra few HP from an open exhaust, and in an attempt to stop these, the laws are making it more difficult for the rest of us.
And also that similar initiatives force manufacturers of other equipment to openly document servicing interfaces.
Yes, worldwide. I agree.
I believe this is a big deal in regards to Tesla. Tesla locks down their cars to a insane degree- To a point where if you fuck around too much, apparently they call you up telling you to knock it off. With this law, I would imagine tesla would have little to no leverage with those folk
Good reading here : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11233898
Good reading here : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11233898
Who did they call?
Tesla currently makes service manuals and tools available (for a hefty fee) to third parties, but only to accredited body shops, or residents of Massachusetts. I'm sure that last part is not a coincidence.
Tesla currently makes service manuals and tools available (for a hefty fee) to third parties, but only to accredited body shops, or residents of Massachusetts. I'm sure that last part is not a coincidence.
The primary example that he might be referring to is this one [1]. It's someone reporting on their experience connecting to an ethernet port in his tesla and getting a call from Tesla to please stop.
http://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-is-basically-a-good-lo...
http://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-is-basically-a-good-lo...
More like "getting a call from Tesla to stop and then getting the port disabled".
Fun! At least it sounds like they were nice about it.
Nice about telling you how you could use the car you purchased from them in what universe is this reasonable.
I don't see that they told him anything, they just asked.
They remotely disabled the port, that isn't asking.
They remotely disabled the port? I can't see anything in the article to suggest that…where did you read this?
To clarify, they disabled it for everyone in a software update[1]. Some comments made it appear they just disabled it for this guy due to his hacking, but it was for everyone.
[1] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/691884/
[1] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/691884/
They shouldn't even know that he plugged anything into the ethernet port, let alone have a problem with that and ask him to stop... It's his car!
How long until somebody in MA screen captures the entire Model S service manual and puts it up for public consumption as a torrent?
Start a crowdfunding effort. There are enough Tesla owners in MA that at least one of them will be willing to do this.
Even if they did, just going off of experience with other software projects, my gut says the docs are obsolete before you're* even able to download them.
*someone from the commonwealth
*someone from the commonwealth
Tesla would go out of business if they changed hardware that often.
With advanced autopilot tech I think this is reasonable - if a third-party vision sensor or something similar were to screw up and cause an autopilot collision that could be potentially disastrous.
> With advanced autopilot tech I think this is reasonable
No, it isn't. We've allowed people to mess with the brakes of a car for over a century and the world hasn't come to an end.
No, it isn't. We've allowed people to mess with the brakes of a car for over a century and the world hasn't come to an end.
In fact, checking the brake pads should be part of everyone's pre-drive walkaround (does anyone do this regularly? I do, at least.) Replacing them yourself isn't so hard either.
On the other hand, I'm not so sure about how hard it is to check and maintain an autopilot system...
On the other hand, I'm not so sure about how hard it is to check and maintain an autopilot system...
Can you explain what you mean by checking your brake pads?
Making sure they aren't too worn. Brake pads have "wear indicators" in them for just that reason and have for decades. You know that squeal/squeaking sound worn brakes make? That's wear indicators doing their job.
Yeah, but how does he check that on a walkaround?
It's not possible on all models but if your wheels are "open" enough that you can see the pads through them, it's pretty easy to see how much material is left with just a quick glance.
What about the likelihood of electrocution? A friend who is an auto mechanic told me previously that hybrid cars are by nature, more dangerous to work on.
If you can self service the battery, then you can obviously remove it, and with no source of power there should be no real risk of electrocution
Wouldn't really even need to "service" the battery. It would be pretty easy to add a "master disconnect switch" or some other type of service switch, close to the battery, that cuts off power to the rest of the car.
I would be surprised if the manufacturers don't build something like that in already, just because it makes the car safer to assemble. (Wiring up a high-current battery pack to a bunch of electronics can be... fun... if there's not a cutoff close to the battery. You end up with a pretty good-sized arc in some cases even with the other electronics 'off'.)
The Prius has an emergency disconnect under the hood that can be accessed by emergency personnel / firefighters, although I believe it's destructive to operate. (It's a "cut here in emergency" sort of thing, at least on the older ones.)
I could see having a standardized service disconnect switch, or at least standardized signage or switch appearance, on electric/hybrid cars as a safety thing, not just for roadside emergencies but also for maintenance.
I would be surprised if the manufacturers don't build something like that in already, just because it makes the car safer to assemble. (Wiring up a high-current battery pack to a bunch of electronics can be... fun... if there's not a cutoff close to the battery. You end up with a pretty good-sized arc in some cases even with the other electronics 'off'.)
The Prius has an emergency disconnect under the hood that can be accessed by emergency personnel / firefighters, although I believe it's destructive to operate. (It's a "cut here in emergency" sort of thing, at least on the older ones.)
I could see having a standardized service disconnect switch, or at least standardized signage or switch appearance, on electric/hybrid cars as a safety thing, not just for roadside emergencies but also for maintenance.
Can you self-service the battery on an electric or hybrid car? I'd be mildly surprised if you could. (Of course, I never actually thought about the question before...)
It's not supported but is possible. Someone on here replaced a single damaged cell on a Prius, whereas the dealer would only offer to replace the whole bank (which costs $5000).
A few months ago, my father and I replaced the fans inside the battery on my '05 Ford Escape hybrid. Ended up saving me about $1k in labor costs.
for scoping purposes, I own a volt
There are two batteries: 1) normal 12V battery (in the trunk under the floor I believe) 2) the large 'main' battery which
The 12V is absolutely user replaceable. Wonderfully, they even provide jump lugs under the hood in normal locations. The main battery is under the rear seat and the center console between the passenger and drive sides seats. I haven't messed with that one...not going to bother until the warranty is gone.
There are two batteries: 1) normal 12V battery (in the trunk under the floor I believe) 2) the large 'main' battery which
The 12V is absolutely user replaceable. Wonderfully, they even provide jump lugs under the hood in normal locations. The main battery is under the rear seat and the center console between the passenger and drive sides seats. I haven't messed with that one...not going to bother until the warranty is gone.
The main battery in most hybrids is on the order of 400VDC which isn't nearly enough to electrocute you in anything but ideal conditions. The real risk is accidentally shorting the battery which would cause it to explode.
400V DC is pretty dangerous. I wouldn't mess with it without taking serious precautions. (But I would mess with it...)
Its not the volts that will kill you, its the amps
What about capacitors?
Next we'll allow people to access the high voltage wires inside their houses... where does it end?
In some countries (Australia for one) it is illegal to do electrical work on your house if you're not a licenced electrician. I don't agree with that, but it is a position some people take clearly.
Canada does this too. I've had an 'inspector' tell me that I could not ground my windmill tower, had to bring the ground in through a wire into the house and tie it to the ground in the electrical panel because I was allowed only on ground point in my installation.
Totally nuts. I get why they want only one ground from a safety perspective but to bring a potential source of a lightning strike into your electrical panel when it can be safely deflected outside the house is insanity to a degree that I'm not convinced it shouldn't be criminal.
Anyway, I refused, they kept on harassing me and eventually (after a year or so) left me alone. I told the guy I'd do it if he would inform my insurance company of the change he requested in black and white, but that of course he would not do. I suspect he became an electrical inspector by following some course, not because he actually understood the first thing about physics.
Highly annoying.
Totally nuts. I get why they want only one ground from a safety perspective but to bring a potential source of a lightning strike into your electrical panel when it can be safely deflected outside the house is insanity to a degree that I'm not convinced it shouldn't be criminal.
Anyway, I refused, they kept on harassing me and eventually (after a year or so) left me alone. I told the guy I'd do it if he would inform my insurance company of the change he requested in black and white, but that of course he would not do. I suspect he became an electrical inspector by following some course, not because he actually understood the first thing about physics.
Highly annoying.
That's very strange. Could you not just sink a copper pole into the ground the requisite distance? Do inspectors not have a method for inspecting the actual "ground" that grounds are connected to? Many questions...
That is not for safety, that is for making money. Think about. Make an activity illegal and now only your "certified" and lobbied for employees can do that (now expensive) work.
That's interesting. The viral Australian "Dumb Ways to Die" video [1] from a couple of years back by Metro Trains Melbourne included a snippet about "doing your own electrical work" which seemed rather incongruous to me as a fairly typical American with a house who doesn't think twice about swapping light switches and such. (Especially given the popular image of self-reliant Australians and all that--however atypical sheep and cattle stations may be of the average resident.) I guess that's the reason.
[1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2012/nov/28/dumb-ways...
[1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2012/nov/28/dumb-ways...
The counterpoint to the "self-reliant Australian" image is the fact that historically the Australian government has been very protectionist about local markets and trades. There are strong trade unions that have lobbied to keep non-trade-qualified people from doing basic maintenance - hell, it's technically illegal to do your own plumbing: http://www.licensedtrades.com.au/licensed/plumbers
(Edit: As in, it's not just illegal to plumb your entire house. It's illegal to replace a tap.)
(Edit: As in, it's not just illegal to plumb your entire house. It's illegal to replace a tap.)
It's also illegal to wire in your own ethernet jacks. Crazy.
I imagine that even in Australia high voltage lines are exposed to laypeople via electrical sockets, with naught to protect the novice but being inset in some plastic.
In any case the idea of finding (or even sympathizing with) reasons to prevent owners from accessing their cars' inner functionality rubs me exactly the wrong way.
In any case the idea of finding (or even sympathizing with) reasons to prevent owners from accessing their cars' inner functionality rubs me exactly the wrong way.
Another car nut here...
I think it is worth noting that Click and Clack from Car Talk on NPR where big proponents of the MA bill.
As with all things, everything is hackable. I previously owned a Subaru BRZ...the tuner community had several options of people who had reverse engineered the entire ECU and made new programming and maps available. They even built new functionality that allowed the cruise control stalk and other secondary controls to change engine settings on the fly.
No one from Subaru/Toyota offered this, although when the car was launched they had promised that they would. But with an Arduino and a CAN shield, and a little patience you can begin to sniff things, they don't bother to secure them.
Now I have a Chevy volt. I wish there was a bigger mod community, but mine is still under warranty. Electric motorcycles like those made by Zero tend to have different 'modes' that allow some customization of things like acceleration profiles and (especially) regenerative braking. I wish I could retune when the volt uses the engine and how...the car is a comprise on many variables. I wish the volt had that, but it will never happen for real mainline consumer products. After the warranty is up...mine may find itself with a bigger battery.
I think it is worth noting that Click and Clack from Car Talk on NPR where big proponents of the MA bill.
As with all things, everything is hackable. I previously owned a Subaru BRZ...the tuner community had several options of people who had reverse engineered the entire ECU and made new programming and maps available. They even built new functionality that allowed the cruise control stalk and other secondary controls to change engine settings on the fly.
No one from Subaru/Toyota offered this, although when the car was launched they had promised that they would. But with an Arduino and a CAN shield, and a little patience you can begin to sniff things, they don't bother to secure them.
Now I have a Chevy volt. I wish there was a bigger mod community, but mine is still under warranty. Electric motorcycles like those made by Zero tend to have different 'modes' that allow some customization of things like acceleration profiles and (especially) regenerative braking. I wish I could retune when the volt uses the engine and how...the car is a comprise on many variables. I wish the volt had that, but it will never happen for real mainline consumer products. After the warranty is up...mine may find itself with a bigger battery.
I own a vehicle (2014 BMW R1200GS motorcycle) in Massachusetts where I reside. I purchased it here, and it's registered/titled/taxed/etc in-state.
Am I to understand that I should be able to get access to all the same information, documents, code, software tools, protocols about my vehicle as a dealer? For free?
BMW hasn't released their computer interface information publicly about my vehicle AFAIK, and I really want to build some logging/diagnostic tools on my own, but lacking documentation I have to reverse-engineer from square one.
How (if possible) can I take advantage of this?
Am I to understand that I should be able to get access to all the same information, documents, code, software tools, protocols about my vehicle as a dealer? For free?
BMW hasn't released their computer interface information publicly about my vehicle AFAIK, and I really want to build some logging/diagnostic tools on my own, but lacking documentation I have to reverse-engineer from square one.
How (if possible) can I take advantage of this?
For reference on how the law can be interpreted...
Tesla provides access to the service manuals by law. But they won't let you purchase them. You must rent them at $30/hr, $100/day, $350/mo, or $3000/yr.
http://syonyk.blogspot.com/2016/03/is-tesla-building-throwaw...
Tesla provides access to the service manuals by law. But they won't let you purchase them. You must rent them at $30/hr, $100/day, $350/mo, or $3000/yr.
http://syonyk.blogspot.com/2016/03/is-tesla-building-throwaw...
It's not ideal at all, but if I were in that position I'd pay the $350 and spend a month downloading and saving everything (good thing DRM is still breakable)... how much did the Tesla cost? An extra $350 doesn't seem all that much more to get a set of comprehensive docs.
Not for free, but you are provided the right to have access to the service information. I'm not as sure about the software tools angle (which is another giant loophole, if unaddressed). It seems that those need to be available on fair and equitable terms (but decidedly not free).
The language of the law is here: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/SessionLaws/Acts/2013/Chapter...
That strongly suggests that you would need to sign a confidentiality agreement as a tools vendor to gain access to the protocol information.
The language of the law is here: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/SessionLaws/Acts/2013/Chapter...
That strongly suggests that you would need to sign a confidentiality agreement as a tools vendor to gain access to the protocol information.
I wonder if parallel construction could be used then to "reverse engineer" and share the information. Works for LEOs...
this is a big deal to me as I work in this industry. the idea that car manufacturers can lock you out of the physical and computerized aspect of your car is disturbing as you have bought the vehicle. Independent shops came about as people wanted alternatives, either for better pricing, service, location, or availability. There are many governing bodies concerned with providing customers with the means to know a persons level of expertise.
black box items, whether its cars, phones, or computers, are things you never truly can own nor trust.
black box items, whether its cars, phones, or computers, are things you never truly can own nor trust.
The Internet of Things You Can't Own
This whole debate about car repairability makes me want to buy my long term dream vehicle now and not later. I currently have a hyundai with a GSM chip somewhere inside, doing heaven knows what. I don't want my car talking to a cell phone tower!
I would likely agree but curious, why exactly do you not want the GSM chip in the car and what would lost by not having it?
These chips broadcast cards location back to Hyundai as part of a paid program to see where your car is on your phone. What is Hyundai's data retention policy? Their data security? If it's anywhere near as poorly thought out as their in-car UX, that's pretty scary. I'm sure they'd bend over backwards to law enforcement request of data.
You could simply remove it? Or does it fail to start when the car can't reach the cell network?
Likely depends of the source of the GSM; some cars are sold with OnStar, LoJack, etc. - and have anti-tamper feature and/or remote kill switch. It's my understanding that OnStar can even kill the car while it's in motion, which seems a bit over the top if you ask me.
oh yeah, marketed as "anti theft" but scared to know exactly how hard this would be for some bad actor to crack :/
It's possible that the GSM chip working is a part of the immobilizer system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immobiliser
Making autos easy to maintain, modular, etc. would likely be more useful law than requiring access to what is likely very expensive equipment and overly complex documentation.
How could you legislate that without restricting novel developments in car technology? Requiring the electronic control and diagnostic systems to speak an owner-accessible protocol should give a lot of the benefits while still allowing legitimate complexity.
True in the general case, but in a few specific cases like swappable battery form factors and interface protcols for EVs, government-mandated standards could catapult the market ahead by decades.
If those standards were well-thought-out. I know, I know, good luck with that...
If those standards were well-thought-out. I know, I know, good luck with that...
Great point. It's facile to dismiss regulation as a whole when in fact well-crafted regulations can be quite beneficial.
Sorry, but this would be an innovation, not a subversion of it. I not have the answer, but know it's possible; also know it goes against the interests of the auto industry.
We have a similar initiative here in Minnesota:
https://minnesota.repair.org/
I really like this idea and would like to see it come to fruition. It's a nice check on consumerism and planned obsolescence.
https://minnesota.repair.org/
I really like this idea and would like to see it come to fruition. It's a nice check on consumerism and planned obsolescence.
The link referred to a bill that does not include the right to repair.
Anyone know what's up with Salisbury and Groveland? Every other county > 70% pro. They were > 70% against
And then what happened? Has this made a difference in practice?
Well, I believe this is the only state where you can even 'rent' the Tesla service manual. Solely because it's legally required in this state.
Yes, but they charge you like $10,000 [edit: hyperbole, see justinlardinois' comment below for the exact figures] or something. So the initiative ultimately had a bit of a glaring loophole.
Well, not that much, but still very expensive.
https://service.teslamotors.com/
$30/hour, and various other pricings up to $3000/year. The latter is probably feasible for an independent service shop, but none of this would ever work for an individual.
https://service.teslamotors.com/
$30/hour, and various other pricings up to $3000/year. The latter is probably feasible for an independent service shop, but none of this would ever work for an individual.
Thanks for doing the research! (The $10,000 figure was intentional hyperbole, but I knew it was very high).
It's probably infeasible for anyone, even a business. To be able to invest $3,000/year for a Tesla service manual you need to have the know-how to repair Teslas, and to have the know-how you need to have the service manual. Chicken-and-egg problem.
So, in practice, a "right to repair" Teslas for individuals or businesses will have to wait for if and when the manual hits torrent sites. Not that I blame them for not wanting amateurs attempting to repair their bleeding-edge high-tech gizmos with explosive batteries.
It's probably infeasible for anyone, even a business. To be able to invest $3,000/year for a Tesla service manual you need to have the know-how to repair Teslas, and to have the know-how you need to have the service manual. Chicken-and-egg problem.
So, in practice, a "right to repair" Teslas for individuals or businesses will have to wait for if and when the manual hits torrent sites. Not that I blame them for not wanting amateurs attempting to repair their bleeding-edge high-tech gizmos with explosive batteries.
As time goes on, current repair technicians at Tesla will leave the company, and some of them may be interested in servicing Tesla vehicles. They'll have all the baseline knowledge and training that they need; this provides them with the ongoing access they'd need to perform their jobs.
Now, Massachusetts has relatively employer-biased noncompete laws, but that may change over time, and certainly people from other states could move to Massachusetts.
Now, Massachusetts has relatively employer-biased noncompete laws, but that may change over time, and certainly people from other states could move to Massachusetts.
Fair enough. :)
I think you might draw a distinction, however: A former BMW (same price space as Tesla) repair tech probably has the know-how to repair future BMW models (or cars in general), because internal-combustion cars are a very mature technology (at least where there are moving parts).
On the other hand a former Apple repair tech would probably have a lot less confidence in their ability to repair future iPhones and iPads, which are relatively new and rapidly-changing technologies.
I think that it's very possible Teslas are more like iPhones than they are like ordinary cars. You could even make the case that electric cars are a less mature, faster-changing technology even compared to smartphones.
I think you might draw a distinction, however: A former BMW (same price space as Tesla) repair tech probably has the know-how to repair future BMW models (or cars in general), because internal-combustion cars are a very mature technology (at least where there are moving parts).
On the other hand a former Apple repair tech would probably have a lot less confidence in their ability to repair future iPhones and iPads, which are relatively new and rapidly-changing technologies.
I think that it's very possible Teslas are more like iPhones than they are like ordinary cars. You could even make the case that electric cars are a less mature, faster-changing technology even compared to smartphones.
$3000 is a new set of wrenches. Definitely not nothing, but very much achievable for even a small car shop.
I use wrenches on every car. To invest in Tesla-specific tools, I have to believe I will have enough Tesla traffic to justify it. Which at present doesn't happen. So an owner wanting to tinker quite simply can't.
An owner wanting to tinker presumably doesn't care about market demand for their tinkering, so why can't they? It's not like $250/mo is prohibitive to somebody who wants to tinker with their $100,000 luxury car.
Based on what I think car repair costs, just a couple of Teslas a year seems like it would be enough to justify the expense.
I don't see where you believe there is a "checken-and-egg problem." You do not need to know how to repair Teslas in order to invest $3000 a year in a Tesla service manual. All you need is $3000 and the expectation that you'll be able to put the things you learn from the manual into practice.
Well, you don't know that Teslas are even repairable. Perhaps they only sell/provide certain replacement parts or software keys to Tesla stores.
There's no way they can make a car in which the normal wear item's aren't used elsewhere. A Tesla would cost double if all the parts were built specifically for them.
You might have a problem finding control arms and body panels if you're not a shop but I'm betting tie rod ends, wiper motor/arms, wheel bearings and brake parts are all common parts or very close to existing, common parts. The CVs and steering rack are probably hybrids made from existing components in the supplier's inventory but specifically assembled in that way for Tesla's application. SpaceX makes a point of using off the shelf parts where possible to reduce cost. I would be downright surprised if Tesla didn't do the same. It's in the best interest of any low volume manufacturer to use off the shelf parts wherever possible. The lower the volume the more this is true.
For example, one of the higher end Toyotas (I forget if it's the Avalon or Solara) uses the same Bose sound system as a handful of Maseratis. Some Rolls-Royces use a smallblock Chevy starter motor. The Dana 44 rear axle as been in everything from pickup to luxury sedans to Zambonis to forklifts. A part is a part, an assembly is an assembly. If exactly what you want isn't out there already then you work with the manufacturer to have it made. You don't reinvent the wheel unless you have a very good reason.
You might have a problem finding control arms and body panels if you're not a shop but I'm betting tie rod ends, wiper motor/arms, wheel bearings and brake parts are all common parts or very close to existing, common parts. The CVs and steering rack are probably hybrids made from existing components in the supplier's inventory but specifically assembled in that way for Tesla's application. SpaceX makes a point of using off the shelf parts where possible to reduce cost. I would be downright surprised if Tesla didn't do the same. It's in the best interest of any low volume manufacturer to use off the shelf parts wherever possible. The lower the volume the more this is true.
For example, one of the higher end Toyotas (I forget if it's the Avalon or Solara) uses the same Bose sound system as a handful of Maseratis. Some Rolls-Royces use a smallblock Chevy starter motor. The Dana 44 rear axle as been in everything from pickup to luxury sedans to Zambonis to forklifts. A part is a part, an assembly is an assembly. If exactly what you want isn't out there already then you work with the manufacturer to have it made. You don't reinvent the wheel unless you have a very good reason.
There's also a robust aftermarket of 1st party Telsa parts that have been scavenged from totaled vehicles. If you are willing to pay for a part, you can get it.
And what, the $30/hour manual is just a one page list of phone numbers and email addresses to contact?
Nah, just that the materials or tools necessary to perform the services or repairs it describes might not be available to the public.
But even with the manual, you won't get access to the software for a Tesla, so you're still locked out. Or am I missing something obvious here?
I hope this can spread to other areas as well. In the age of global warming, throw and buy instead of repairing your broken items seems not to be a waste.
70% of a mobile phone can be recycled the rest is non recoverable waste.
70% of a mobile phone can be recycled the rest is non recoverable waste.
I connected an OBD-II bluetooth dongle to a Hyundai i30. Unbeknownst to me it started draining the battery reasonably quickly. I forgot it was plugged in and then the car wasn't "starting well" (taking longer than normal to turn over). The mechanic accused me of flashing the ECU and only checked the diagnostic port after reflashing it and changing the battery. I don't know enough to know if I was at fault or not.
Change your mechanic. The cheap (elm327) dongles can't write firmware onto ecus in any setup I am aware of -- elm327 is its own protocol and only supports the obd 2 standard operations (and those poorly). Of course a bad dongle could do something electrical to your ecu, but a reflash would never be necessary. Usually, when your car doesn't start well after a discharge, just remove the source of the drain ( i.e. Don't leave the Doyle plugged in) and go for a nice 30 minute drive -- most likely the battery will be fully recharged.
Why can't they reflash firmware tho? If it give you access to the CAN bus, you should be able to output whatever the heck you want. No?
I recently got a dongle with a power switch; lets me keep it tucked away in the connector without draining power.
Where do tools like the Automatic adapter [1] fit in to this? I don't own one but it connects to OBD-II and my understanding is can be used to do things such as clear warnings etc.
[1] https://www.automatic.com/home/
[1] https://www.automatic.com/home/
They have less and less access to vehicle systems. The current top comment talks about it:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11427018
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11427018
Could this apply to software like iOS as well?
I hope this can go into other areas as well.
California Right to Repair Initiative--next!
This Initiative is what I've been waiting for. I will happily accept information from automotive manufactures, but in the future I want it all;I want any repair information on any product brought into this state.
That will include: vechicles, electronics, appliances, etc., and yes, even mechanical watches.
Being able to buy parts(if parts are still available) should be a right too?
This Initiative is what I've been waiting for. I will happily accept information from automotive manufactures, but in the future I want it all;I want any repair information on any product brought into this state.
That will include: vechicles, electronics, appliances, etc., and yes, even mechanical watches.
Being able to buy parts(if parts are still available) should be a right too?
Ah, but you see, parts aren't still available. Our dealers have some, but those are actually independent businesses from us...
Cars are getting increasingly more difficult to work on yourself, regardless of manufacturer.
Early, purely mechanical cars were easy to work with, there was no magic, everything which made the car work was removable, tweakable.
Then came fuel injection. It was a mish-mash of incompatible technologies and everyone doing their own proprietary thing. The gov't mandated the OBD and OBD-II standards into cars to allow independent servicing of the car, primarily for emissions reasons. For a while, things were simple again, since you could do basic interfacing with the cars yourself, clear codes, etc. The actual ECU maps weren't readily available, but easy enough to reverse engineer since you could memory dump the ECU through an exposed connector or even through the OBD-II port.
Then came air bags and auxiliary safety systems. These were locked down and not subject to OBD rules. To reset the air bag light after fixing a bad connection requires dealer-specific tools, an independent can't do it without acquiring these tools, which are usually prohibitively expensive, or simply not available.
Today, ECU's are encrypted, impenetrable, and export the legally required minimum OBD-II spec, and that's it. You usually have to take it to the dealer for any proprietary codes. As for tuning A/F maps, forget about it.
Some cars have huge enthusiast communities, so some ECU's get cracked, or you replace the ECU with a completely open one, but then sacrifice lots of the vehicle's features.
It's getting more difficult to be a weekend garage mechanic. Brakes and suspensions are still easy, but the engine is becoming impenetrable. A recent BMW, in which all I did was replace a dead battery, required a trip to the dealer to "accept" this new battery. The battery monitoring system threw a code which an independent can't clear.