Jetbrains founders turn billionaires without VC help(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
Jetbrains founders turn billionaires without VC help
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-18/czech-startup-founders-turn-billionaires-without-vc-help
525 コメント
if JetBrains people are reading this, I want to say THANK YOU! You saved lots of developer time with IDE, then Kotlin language. I use Golang, Python and Database IDEs, and they are really nice and time saving, can't imagine how much time you guys saved to Java developers where everything is reflection based annotations and deep level of abstract class/interface implementations. (last time when I worked with Java in VSCode, it was almost useless for autocomplete, because too many things rely on annotation based code generation)
I just bought a personal IDE licence a few days ago. JetBrains makes one of the best IDEs I've ever used, and I consider that 100€ well spent.
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Agreed - JetBrains is one of those companies where their products speak for themselves, and I happily pay every year.
Absolutely money well spent.
Absolutely money well spent.
And their pricing model is great. All products subscription stars $250 but after 2 years its only $150!
Agreed, and the education pack is so good. Perpetually free as long as you're a student has been a lifesaver—honestly can't live without CLion and PyCharm at this point.
Yes! My JetBrains Ultimate renews every November and I get a little giddy in anticipation of paying them for another year. It’s just such an amazing value. JetBrains is so good it’s like finding money on the sidewalk.
JetBrains has a great product but if you are really serious about "giddy in anticipation of paying them for another year" why not buy another subscription every few months? Plan a party and invite the neighbours.
If you REALLY want to treat yourself, let me give you an address to send some bitcoin to!
At a time I'd purchase both JRebel and IntelliJ. JRebel had a really "aggressive" sales team that would call and email about renewals. Jetbrains has never had to call me, their product sells itself, for me. I no longer use JRebel.
I love Intellij and no longer use JRebel, and yeah I knew better than to pick up the phone when their sales team was calling.
But that's not why I stopped using JRebel, I stopped using JRebel because 10 years ago I worked on monolithic code bases that got deployed to application servers where a build and deploy cycle took 30 minutes, if I did the build with no unit tests. Even though it took constant fiddling to keep JRebel working and a hot deploy worked on maybe half the changes I made, it saved me many hours.
Now I work on microservices with embedded app servers where a build/deploy cycle is 30 seconds, no need for JRebel. Sorry sales guys!
But that's not why I stopped using JRebel, I stopped using JRebel because 10 years ago I worked on monolithic code bases that got deployed to application servers where a build and deploy cycle took 30 minutes, if I did the build with no unit tests. Even though it took constant fiddling to keep JRebel working and a hot deploy worked on maybe half the changes I made, it saved me many hours.
Now I work on microservices with embedded app servers where a build/deploy cycle is 30 seconds, no need for JRebel. Sorry sales guys!
IntelliJ was crashing repeatedly for a few days and I was really sad I would have to use a different IDE until I found out I could change which VM was used. I've had IntelliJ even tho my company would have got my PHPStorm just so I could code during my free time in other languages in comfort.
Yup! Martin Fowler mentioned them because they were one of the first people making automated refactoring tools. That sold me on their IDE, and I've been a happy user ever since 2001. Thee days I have the personal version of their all-you-can-eat license and it has always been worth the money.
I'm delighted that their smarts and dedication in building a high-quality, user-focused product has paid off in a big way for them.
I'm delighted that their smarts and dedication in building a high-quality, user-focused product has paid off in a big way for them.
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Java in VSCode works completely fine even with annotations, its the Eclipse language server. You should really give it another shot.
In fact for all of my use cases it performs better than IntelliJ because it isn't trying to be 200 different tools at one time. With JDK 15 and ZGC my project only uses 250mb of ram for the language server where IntelliJ pushes over 4GB.
In fact for all of my use cases it performs better than IntelliJ because it isn't trying to be 200 different tools at one time. With JDK 15 and ZGC my project only uses 250mb of ram for the language server where IntelliJ pushes over 4GB.
They're also one of the best IT employers in Moscow and St Petersburg, and guys working there create a lot of value for IT community both local, and russian-speaking in general. You don't even have to work there to feel the impact on the whole programming culture here.
Moscow and St Petersberg... that is interesting.
I'm a fan of their tools as well, but it is good to learn the Russian angle and take it into account.
Well, it is a Russian company (although not legally, for obvious reasons). Kotlin is named after an island just of the coast of St Petersburg, for example.
JetBrains is a Czech company because the founders lived in Prague at the time (maybe they are still living there, no idea).
Most of the staff is Russian though which sort of makes it a Russian company I guess?
Most of the staff is Russian though which sort of makes it a Russian company I guess?
The 'Russian angle'? What's this, other Russians have done things you dislike, so you pre judge these other Russians?
Speaking as a russian, I have exactly the same prejudice. Our government has done a lot of completely awful stuff in the last 10-15 years and still has wide popular support, so it's only natural that we are held accountable for it.
Also, any company that has significant presence in Russia is subject to Russian influence. These people have ways to make you do what they want if you or your close ones are inside the borders, so you'd be wise to mistrust any software that comes from here.
Also, any company that has significant presence in Russia is subject to Russian influence. These people have ways to make you do what they want if you or your close ones are inside the borders, so you'd be wise to mistrust any software that comes from here.
Stop projecting american experience with racism towards other nations, please.
what are you insinuating hahaha
Some people get a bit weirded out about the multiple IDE situation (mostly folks whose current day to day is VS Code with extensions).
Usually that goes away when you get them to try some of the IDEs, the experience is second to none (as far as IDEs that work extremely well out of the box go).
The amount of times I've got praised for writing neat C# code that was Resharper doing its magic :P
Usually that goes away when you get them to try some of the IDEs, the experience is second to none (as far as IDEs that work extremely well out of the box go).
The amount of times I've got praised for writing neat C# code that was Resharper doing its magic :P
The comparison to the bad old days when the IDE answer was always "Install Eclipse and this set of poorly maintained language plugins" is night and day.
The dollar-a-day I spend on the Jetbrains all-products subscription more than pays for itself.
The dollar-a-day I spend on the Jetbrains all-products subscription more than pays for itself.
I was one of those people up until around a couple years ago. Now I don't even know what I thought was such a big deal. The Jetbrains Toolbox makes it really simple to launch and update the individual IDEs.
My employer pays for the ultimate license, but I will absolutely pay for it once I move on.
My employer pays for the ultimate license, but I will absolutely pay for it once I move on.
if JetBrains people are reading this, I love your products, but waaaay more code navigation and pane splitting/management features need to have keyboard shortcuts.
VS Code gets this very right. It's generally not as powerful or friendly as JetBrains products, but the far superior keyboard navigation experience gets me to attempt to switch once a month or so.
VS Code gets this very right. It's generally not as powerful or friendly as JetBrains products, but the far superior keyboard navigation experience gets me to attempt to switch once a month or so.
Not a JetBrains employee, but which features are you specifically looking for? I've never found a single option in the IDE that's available through a menu that cannot be assigned a shortcut.
I just want them to make a stand-alone git client - their 3 way merge for merge conflicts is second to none.
Indeed. And it seems that it is quite separate already UI wise. So why not.
I think its a step down from Beyond Compare, I've set that up as the diff tool in Intellij before, I might have to do that again in my current environment.
Absolutely! It's an amazing tool, but in my opinion the tight integration actually makes it harder to use at times.
You can use only the merge functionality - it can be launched from git (via mergetool).
I tried to convert from VS Code to PyCharm a while back - I didn't (too familiar with VSC), but I stuck with the merge view for some time - it's absolutely amazing!
I tried to convert from VS Code to PyCharm a while back - I didn't (too familiar with VSC), but I stuck with the merge view for some time - it's absolutely amazing!
Jetbrains products are amazing if you _need_ and IDE. Otherwise you're much better off using VIM or Emacs as they are open source, have tons of customization and plugins available and also they are simply lighter, faster and are available on all unix platforms.
Intellij Idea Community Edition is also open source, and lots of plugins are too
Since I've been testing both on linux on an older laptop (Core i5-3317U, 10GB RAM, Sata SSD): Emacs + lsp (Omnisharp) is not noticably faster than JetBrains Rider. Both are slow and at times lagging on this hardware. In the end I just use Rider on that laptop since if it's lagging either way, Rider is still a more complete C# ide for me.
My laptop from work is a Dell Precision (Core i7-7820HQ, 32GB RAM, NVMe SSD) and is more powerful: it's a pleasure to use Rider on that machine.
JetBrains is one of my favourite ever companies! A few years back I switched from Visual Studio + ReSharper to Rider, and haven't looked back - it's such a fantastic, fully-featured, stable product. I have a personal license that let's me use ReSharper, Rider, dotCover, dotMemory (love this!), dotTrace. Some of the best money I've ever spent, and I happily renew year on year. I also love the pricing model that reduces the cost after years 1 and 2 as a loyalty bonus.
And in the main, JetBrains actually seem to pay attention to what customers ask for in their online feedback site.
I'm looking to get into either Go or Rust soon, and I'll definitely be using GoLand/CLion.
And in the main, JetBrains actually seem to pay attention to what customers ask for in their online feedback site.
I'm looking to get into either Go or Rust soon, and I'll definitely be using GoLand/CLion.
> it's such a […] stable product
Am I using a different IDE? I'm dealing with bugs in their refactoring engine almost every day (at least in Python and TypeScript); I need to invalidate the cache every other week because something something is not working; it's 2020 and I still can't configure my IDE deterministically through text files (which regularly results in situations where building the project works fine for colleague X but not for me, even though we seem to have the same config, so I end up having to delete the project and create it again). And don't even get me started about CPU usage…
That's not to say that Jetbrains IDEs don't provide incredible value. They do. But I still think they leave a lot to be desired when it comes to stability.
Am I using a different IDE? I'm dealing with bugs in their refactoring engine almost every day (at least in Python and TypeScript); I need to invalidate the cache every other week because something something is not working; it's 2020 and I still can't configure my IDE deterministically through text files (which regularly results in situations where building the project works fine for colleague X but not for me, even though we seem to have the same config, so I end up having to delete the project and create it again). And don't even get me started about CPU usage…
That's not to say that Jetbrains IDEs don't provide incredible value. They do. But I still think they leave a lot to be desired when it comes to stability.
I haven't used PyCharm or WebStorm (you mention Python & Typescript, so I guess you're using them), only Rider and peripheral products like dotMemory and dotTrace. I mainly use Rider on Windows, but occasionally use it on MacOS too.
I've encountered the odd issue with EAP versions of Rider (to be expected of course), but the release versions have been rock solid. Coming from Visual Studio, it's been a godsend!
I've encountered the odd issue with EAP versions of Rider (to be expected of course), but the release versions have been rock solid. Coming from Visual Studio, it's been a godsend!
You may just need to tweak your cache & RAM settings. I had similar issues here, and I just juiced the RAM to 4096 (that's 4 GB, a number I chose arbitrarily). Haven't had an issue since.
You’re working with dynamic languages; it’s a hard problem.
The jetbrains tools do a pretty great job with typescript and when you use annotations in pycharm.... or anything where the types can be rigorously determined; but, obviously, it’s not perfect when the type system says “anything is fine”.
As for building the project; Python just totally sucks at reproducible builds. I don’t think pycharm can fix the entire packaging ecosystem.
So, fair... it’s not perfect; but compared to what? Have you used tools with better support, better stability? Better tooling?
It’s a pretty high bar to clear to say the editor isn’t completely perfect.
Yeah yeah, it uses Java, it eats your ram and the cpu can go crazy, sometimes you need to reset the cache or delete your entire .idea folder.
Eh.
I also wish it was better at some things, but I still love it; what’s the alternative? Visual studio? Hahaha~~~~
The jetbrains tools do a pretty great job with typescript and when you use annotations in pycharm.... or anything where the types can be rigorously determined; but, obviously, it’s not perfect when the type system says “anything is fine”.
As for building the project; Python just totally sucks at reproducible builds. I don’t think pycharm can fix the entire packaging ecosystem.
So, fair... it’s not perfect; but compared to what? Have you used tools with better support, better stability? Better tooling?
It’s a pretty high bar to clear to say the editor isn’t completely perfect.
Yeah yeah, it uses Java, it eats your ram and the cpu can go crazy, sometimes you need to reset the cache or delete your entire .idea folder.
Eh.
I also wish it was better at some things, but I still love it; what’s the alternative? Visual studio? Hahaha~~~~
And I remember how impressed I was many years ago when I first tried their Rubymine. So magical it made Ruby feel almost like a typed language! :)
> You’re working with dynamic languages; it’s a hard problem.
It's not that hard a problem. At least TypeScript is statically typed and in Python we're using type annotations everywhere. Besides, the bugs I was talking about mostly concern imports (I move file.py from A/ to B/ and PyCharm forgets to update `import A.file` to `import B.file`), and renamings (PyCharm suddenly renames some random variable deep inside dependencies like Tensorflow, too, so I end up having to re-setup my entire Python environment afterwards).
The thing is: Those auto-suggestions for imports work totally fine and code navigation via Ctrl+click works fine, too. So PyCharm does interpret the import statements correctly and I'm at a loss as to why the refactoring doesn't work then, too. Maybe auto-completion and refactoring are two completely separate systems?
It's not that hard a problem. At least TypeScript is statically typed and in Python we're using type annotations everywhere. Besides, the bugs I was talking about mostly concern imports (I move file.py from A/ to B/ and PyCharm forgets to update `import A.file` to `import B.file`), and renamings (PyCharm suddenly renames some random variable deep inside dependencies like Tensorflow, too, so I end up having to re-setup my entire Python environment afterwards).
The thing is: Those auto-suggestions for imports work totally fine and code navigation via Ctrl+click works fine, too. So PyCharm does interpret the import statements correctly and I'm at a loss as to why the refactoring doesn't work then, too. Maybe auto-completion and refactoring are two completely separate systems?
I’m not gonna deny it’s frustrating to see quality of life stuff like “don’t refactor stuff from packages!” unaddressed year after year.
...but I think it is a tricky problem.
For example Black[1] is a very carefully crafted project that does an excellent job, but it fails at refactoring files just to apply lints with “inconsistent code generated” on some projects and files; and that’s just apply limiting rules.
...but, I for whatever reason, the JetBrains refactoring for static languages (c#, Java, kotlin) does seem significantly superior.
[1] https://github.com/psf/black
...but I think it is a tricky problem.
For example Black[1] is a very carefully crafted project that does an excellent job, but it fails at refactoring files just to apply lints with “inconsistent code generated” on some projects and files; and that’s just apply limiting rules.
...but, I for whatever reason, the JetBrains refactoring for static languages (c#, Java, kotlin) does seem significantly superior.
[1] https://github.com/psf/black
> can't configure my IDE deterministically through text files
Yes, you can[1]. It will even sync automatically with whatever git repo you store the settings in.
> regularly results in situations where building the project works fine for colleague X but not for me
This is a problem with relying on the IDE host to also be the host of your applications. Your repo should contain build settings, not your IDE.
You should switch to Docker or Pulumi or [insert declarative build tool here] -- something more deterministic and consistent across users.
> I'm dealing with bugs in their refactoring engine
As others have said, this is much more likely to be a problem with dynamic languages. I haven't done much with Python, but I've never had a TypeScript refactoring problem in 3+ years of using it as my primary language and IntelliJ as my primary IDE.
> And don't even get me started about CPU usage…
I have a much bigger issue with memory usage, but it's still not a big problem (and I think it's a memory leak in a single plugin anyway).
Also, JetBrains seems to have (correctly) assumed that dev time is much more expensive than dev hardware.
If I have someone whose slow IDE drains 1 hr of work per week and costs $75/hr, then it's only going to be a few weeks before it was more cost effective for me to upgrade her CPU than to worry about the IDE at all.
1. https://www.jetbrains.com/help/rider/Sharing_Your_IDE_Settin...
Yes, you can[1]. It will even sync automatically with whatever git repo you store the settings in.
> regularly results in situations where building the project works fine for colleague X but not for me
This is a problem with relying on the IDE host to also be the host of your applications. Your repo should contain build settings, not your IDE.
You should switch to Docker or Pulumi or [insert declarative build tool here] -- something more deterministic and consistent across users.
> I'm dealing with bugs in their refactoring engine
As others have said, this is much more likely to be a problem with dynamic languages. I haven't done much with Python, but I've never had a TypeScript refactoring problem in 3+ years of using it as my primary language and IntelliJ as my primary IDE.
> And don't even get me started about CPU usage…
I have a much bigger issue with memory usage, but it's still not a big problem (and I think it's a memory leak in a single plugin anyway).
Also, JetBrains seems to have (correctly) assumed that dev time is much more expensive than dev hardware.
If I have someone whose slow IDE drains 1 hr of work per week and costs $75/hr, then it's only going to be a few weeks before it was more cost effective for me to upgrade her CPU than to worry about the IDE at all.
1. https://www.jetbrains.com/help/rider/Sharing_Your_IDE_Settin...
> Yes, you can[1]. It will even sync automatically with whatever git repo you store the settings in.
No you cannot. Note I was being very precise in my wording. While you can now export your Jetbrains IDE's config as a git repo (or zip file) of text files, you still cannot configure the IDE through text files (like in SublimeText) because 1) the text files' format is not documented anywhere and likely to change in the future without further warning and 2) Jetbrains also writes changes to the git repo automatically. I want to be in control of my config, though. (Sure, I could roll back any changes but I think that's very sub-optimal solution.)
> This is a problem with relying on the IDE host to also be the host of your applications. Your repo should contain build settings, not your IDE.
Well, yes, we do have all our build scripts etc. in our repo but that doesn't keep people (myself included) from running and debugging things from within their IDE because it's a lot more comfortable.
No you cannot. Note I was being very precise in my wording. While you can now export your Jetbrains IDE's config as a git repo (or zip file) of text files, you still cannot configure the IDE through text files (like in SublimeText) because 1) the text files' format is not documented anywhere and likely to change in the future without further warning and 2) Jetbrains also writes changes to the git repo automatically. I want to be in control of my config, though. (Sure, I could roll back any changes but I think that's very sub-optimal solution.)
> This is a problem with relying on the IDE host to also be the host of your applications. Your repo should contain build settings, not your IDE.
Well, yes, we do have all our build scripts etc. in our repo but that doesn't keep people (myself included) from running and debugging things from within their IDE because it's a lot more comfortable.
> Note I was being very precise in my wording
I noted your wording, which was not as narrow as your intention. You just said you wanted deterministic, text-based config, which JetBrains has.
I've used VS Code's text-file config, before there was a GUI for most of the config options, and I actually found it to be pretty frustrating. A good GUI is a lot better than editing text, even with the IDE helping you stay within the schema.
JetBrains IDE's probably fail the worst in that regard, I agree; but once you have a config you like, it's easy to keep it consistent.
> but that doesn't keep people (myself included) from running and debugging things from within their IDE because it's a lot more comfortable
Again, these aren't mutually exclusive. You can run/debug code in a Docker container[1][2]. The IDE experience is exactly the same (click the Debug icon or use the shortcut, set breakpoints, whatever), it's just that the VM is running your code instead of your dev environment.
1. Typescript - https://blog.entrostat.com/debugging-a-typescript-project-in...
2. Python - https://www.jetbrains.com/help/pycharm/using-docker-as-a-rem...
I noted your wording, which was not as narrow as your intention. You just said you wanted deterministic, text-based config, which JetBrains has.
I've used VS Code's text-file config, before there was a GUI for most of the config options, and I actually found it to be pretty frustrating. A good GUI is a lot better than editing text, even with the IDE helping you stay within the schema.
JetBrains IDE's probably fail the worst in that regard, I agree; but once you have a config you like, it's easy to keep it consistent.
> but that doesn't keep people (myself included) from running and debugging things from within their IDE because it's a lot more comfortable
Again, these aren't mutually exclusive. You can run/debug code in a Docker container[1][2]. The IDE experience is exactly the same (click the Debug icon or use the shortcut, set breakpoints, whatever), it's just that the VM is running your code instead of your dev environment.
1. Typescript - https://blog.entrostat.com/debugging-a-typescript-project-in...
2. Python - https://www.jetbrains.com/help/pycharm/using-docker-as-a-rem...
How is the perf / mem usage in Rider vs VS w/ Resharper?
From my experience it eats up more memory. My project i avg around 1.2 gb in VS. vs 2.5 in Rider. But the application is much more responsive.
Rider is way snappier. With VS, I'm very used to slowdowns and even total freezes for several seconds (which people like to attribute to ReSharper, but IME they happen plenty even without ReSharper) - for a big, full-features IDE, once Rider has started, it feels really snappy, and puts to bed the long-held beliefs that Java is slow.
Just opened a big solution in both VS and Rider to confirm:
Just opened a big solution in both VS and Rider to confirm:
- VS was really laggy after opening, pinning all 8 Xeon E3 cores for 2 full minutes!
- VS memory sitting at 1.3GB, plus another 0.9GB for ReSharper
- Rider took 22 seconds to load the solution, then used a bit of CPU for 30s (but was totally responsive in that period)
- Rider memory sitting at 1.1GB
I've used it on a 250-projects solution, and performance is much better than VS+R# or VS alone. Still not recommended, obviously. On smaller projects, I find also it snappier. It uses as much CPU as VS, and eats up more RAM.
I'm gonna give the complex answer:
- Overall, Perf is better in Rider than VS w/Resharper
- Memory usage for a single solution might be higher than VS.
- There are scenarios where Rider may have much higher memory usage but -vastly- better performance. VS is only 32 bit, There's only so much process space it gets (2GB or 3GB, can't recall offhand) at which point it's gotta swap whether it wants to or not. Rider is 64 bit, so it will be less afraid to allocate if it makes sense on the hardware (and the JVM tuning deities.)
- You can load multiple solutions in Rider with much less penalty than you'd expect. Rider normally runs as a single Main process with Resharper/.Net/etc hosts for each open solution. This seems to give me lower memory usage than Visual Studio.
- With Akka.NET (53 projects, C# and F#) and Akka.Persistence.Linq2Db (6 projects) open, Rider sits at 1598MB nominally, goes between 1.2GB and 2GB, the Resharper subprocesses (already included in those totals) sit between 300-800MB and 60-200MB.
- Visual Studio 2019 with Resharper and Intellicode -DISABLED- shows up as 1363MB for Akka.Net, 653MB for Akka.Persistence.Linq2db, for a total of 2016MB.
Side note, Rider has been open for days with me doing all sorts of nasty things like switching between branches without unloading (Oh yeah, come for the lower memory usage, stay for the hot-reloading.) Those VS numbers were right after I opened, by comparison.
- Overall, Perf is better in Rider than VS w/Resharper
- Memory usage for a single solution might be higher than VS.
- There are scenarios where Rider may have much higher memory usage but -vastly- better performance. VS is only 32 bit, There's only so much process space it gets (2GB or 3GB, can't recall offhand) at which point it's gotta swap whether it wants to or not. Rider is 64 bit, so it will be less afraid to allocate if it makes sense on the hardware (and the JVM tuning deities.)
- You can load multiple solutions in Rider with much less penalty than you'd expect. Rider normally runs as a single Main process with Resharper/.Net/etc hosts for each open solution. This seems to give me lower memory usage than Visual Studio.
- With Akka.NET (53 projects, C# and F#) and Akka.Persistence.Linq2Db (6 projects) open, Rider sits at 1598MB nominally, goes between 1.2GB and 2GB, the Resharper subprocesses (already included in those totals) sit between 300-800MB and 60-200MB.
- Visual Studio 2019 with Resharper and Intellicode -DISABLED- shows up as 1363MB for Akka.Net, 653MB for Akka.Persistence.Linq2db, for a total of 2016MB.
Side note, Rider has been open for days with me doing all sorts of nasty things like switching between branches without unloading (Oh yeah, come for the lower memory usage, stay for the hot-reloading.) Those VS numbers were right after I opened, by comparison.
VS is much better today but it's still a 32-bit process that's limited to < 4GB of addressable memory. Jetbrains has been on a multiyear journey (documented with fantastic blog posts) to move Resharper out-of-process but there's still overhead in maintaining separate systems working on the same project space.
Rider bypasses all of the process limitations and syncing overhead by using the Resharper/C# logic exclusively, and is much faster and more responsive as a result.
Also VS has been slowly copying Resharper features but is still far behind. I mostly use VS today for heavy debugging where it still excels.
Rider bypasses all of the process limitations and syncing overhead by using the Resharper/C# logic exclusively, and is much faster and more responsive as a result.
Also VS has been slowly copying Resharper features but is still far behind. I mostly use VS today for heavy debugging where it still excels.
clion is honestly the only product I get excited about new releases.
This last one with partial compile, and specific debug loops, it is an awesome product!
This last one with partial compile, and specific debug loops, it is an awesome product!
PyCharm is a no-nonsense, straightforward IDE, that's a pleasure to use. They somehow manage to avoid annoying feature bloat and crapware. No nagging, no bullshit, they are actually creating features that improve workflows instead of features to tick boxes on corporate purchasing department meeting room flipcharts or buzzword bingo. Remarkable and I really hope they don't get bought-and-killed by one of the giants. Or VCs wanting to "make it more $marketing_buzzword".
I've used NetBeans, Eclipse, Visual Studio, QtCreator etc. over the years and always used to pull my hair out over the mess. JetBrains IDEs are way ahead in UX, usability and working day-to-day, minute-to-minute. Nothing flashy, nothing overly marketed, just rock solid and great value.
Free educational license, no-brainer update management with the JetBrains toolbox, everything fits, doesn't demand attention to itself and lets you concentrate on the work.
I've used NetBeans, Eclipse, Visual Studio, QtCreator etc. over the years and always used to pull my hair out over the mess. JetBrains IDEs are way ahead in UX, usability and working day-to-day, minute-to-minute. Nothing flashy, nothing overly marketed, just rock solid and great value.
Free educational license, no-brainer update management with the JetBrains toolbox, everything fits, doesn't demand attention to itself and lets you concentrate on the work.
I'm a big fan and user of PyCharm for many years, but we all know that when my fan starts going and the laptop wants to take off, we can guarantee that PyCharm is indexing ;)
Sure there are some places to improve.
My only complaint is with the remote features, now with covid. I want to seamlessly work as if I was sitting in the office (I can ssh to the machine).
My current setup is to sshfs mount my remote code, install a conda env on my laptop mirroring the office one, and execute things in a terminal window. PyCharm then becomes an editor, autocompleter, refactoring tool, code navigation tool etc, but I don't do debugging within it.
There is some SSH and remote interpreter options but it's limited and hard to use. You can't directly work on the remote files, it uses a model of publishing your changes to the remote and keeps multiple copies etc. Several of us spent quite some time trying to come up with a good workflows for this but some rather use remote desktops or X forwarding because it's not straightforward.
My only complaint is with the remote features, now with covid. I want to seamlessly work as if I was sitting in the office (I can ssh to the machine).
My current setup is to sshfs mount my remote code, install a conda env on my laptop mirroring the office one, and execute things in a terminal window. PyCharm then becomes an editor, autocompleter, refactoring tool, code navigation tool etc, but I don't do debugging within it.
There is some SSH and remote interpreter options but it's limited and hard to use. You can't directly work on the remote files, it uses a model of publishing your changes to the remote and keeps multiple copies etc. Several of us spent quite some time trying to come up with a good workflows for this but some rather use remote desktops or X forwarding because it's not straightforward.
They seem to releasing Code With Me soon (it's currently in EAP, I understood it should come with 2020.3). I haven't tried it yet, but it seems like it could be used a bit like VS Code's remote development mode. It does have some restrictions, but hopefully those will end up being fixed (e.g. currently you need to accept the sessions via GUI instead of being able to let it do automatically via SSH & some tool windows don't work thru it (like Maven)).
https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/14896-code-with-me
https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/14896-code-with-me
Code with me works really well. i was impressed.
In my team we have actually managed to have it working like I am in the office, but with a VPN.
With the remote interpreter, we use Docker, I can debug code that is running on our servers.
And if you set up deployment any changes on your files are automatically uploaded to the remote files, without multiple copies it just overwrites them.
Its a pleasure to work with, I can debug GPU-cuda issues on my macbook with PyCharm GUI!! It was a little bit convoluted to set up, we followed this guide: https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/PY-33489
With the remote interpreter, we use Docker, I can debug code that is running on our servers.
And if you set up deployment any changes on your files are automatically uploaded to the remote files, without multiple copies it just overwrites them.
Its a pleasure to work with, I can debug GPU-cuda issues on my macbook with PyCharm GUI!! It was a little bit convoluted to set up, we followed this guide: https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/PY-33489
My workflow now involves running syncthing to synchronize repos between local and remote server and then run instances of IntelliJ locally and over VNC. I get the speed of local editing and running unit tests, but can switch over to VNC remote instance to run and debug. VNC has been much more performant and easier to use than X forwarding or remote debugging.
There is stuff like projector that lets you make a remote machine a dev machine that does all the building, indexing, etc. Have a beefy 80 core machine be your dev machine while you work on your lightweight laptop, or have it live in the data center so debugging connections are not so 'remote', etc.
https://github.com/JetBrains/projector-docker
https://github.com/JetBrains/projector-docker
That’s their one thing...
Indexing is required by so much of their software, even listening for XDebug connections with PHPStorm is not available while indexing. Can’t they let us set the indexing on a lower priority and let stuff work without the index too? (Even if we can’t jump to a specific function, XDebug protocol already has the file and line indicated.)
Otherwise I love their software!
Indexing is required by so much of their software, even listening for XDebug connections with PHPStorm is not available while indexing. Can’t they let us set the indexing on a lower priority and let stuff work without the index too? (Even if we can’t jump to a specific function, XDebug protocol already has the file and line indicated.)
Otherwise I love their software!
Agreed a more progressive indexing would be nice. A bit like a progressive jpeg.
PyCharm is fine for me. IntelliJ, on the other hand, will periodically freeze my work Macbook when trying to reindex parts of our monorepo[1]. Makes me wish I wasn't forced to use a laptop... or a monorepo.
[1] Note, just a handful of top-level targets comprising 2%-3% of the whole repo. Indexing the entire monorepo at once is a non-starter.
[1] Note, just a handful of top-level targets comprising 2%-3% of the whole repo. Indexing the entire monorepo at once is a non-starter.
This sounds very debuggable - PyCharm is basically the same product as IntelliJ + Python plugin. There's no difference in how it handles project indexing, so it's probably a specific IntelliJ plugin or functionality causing the freezes.
There's a built-in CPU profiler, but given that you're a paying customer, just contact their support and they'll help you figure it out.
There's a built-in CPU profiler, but given that you're a paying customer, just contact their support and they'll help you figure it out.
The freezes might be caused by IntelliJ's jvm running out of memory.
Go to the help menu and then Memory Settings (it's not in the normal settings)
That and laggy keystrokes are really a productivity killer, but maybe for some people it's a worthwhile tradeoff. Not for me. I'm of the opinion that tools should get out of the way and be almost invisible.
Interestingly thats what intellij is for me. RAM is cheap, give a bit more to the editor and it will not get in the way. Indexing saves me so much time that it payed for the extra GBs the first week of use.
Find the biggest directory in your project which doesn't contain relevant code (usually /build, /docs, /.git or /thirdparty) and right click: mark as excluded. Problem solved.
I've used Jetbrains products for five years. Updates are consistently an improvement. Even performance improvements from time to time, which is fantastic since it is a heavy java application. They were quick on the take with Docker integration, latest Cmake updates, even some Go2 generics support already.
Same with WebStorm editing JavaScript & TypeScript!
I'm so impressed that JetBrains can put a reliable pseudo-type system on top of dynamic languages like Python and JavaScript.
My co-workers wonder why I don't just use VSCode like everybody else. I mean it's not _bad_, but it's not JetBrains. You will have to pry my all-tools JetBrains license out of my cold dead hands.
I'm so impressed that JetBrains can put a reliable pseudo-type system on top of dynamic languages like Python and JavaScript.
My co-workers wonder why I don't just use VSCode like everybody else. I mean it's not _bad_, but it's not JetBrains. You will have to pry my all-tools JetBrains license out of my cold dead hands.
Shoutout for RubyMine, Goland and Pycharm - all excellent and reliable.
If you're going to use more than 3 of their offerings, it starts to get cheaper going with the all products pack or IntelliJ ultimate is cheaper than going with 2 tools. But you should note that IntelliJ doesn't include every other products as plugins such as AppCode.
fantastic application for education as well. The debugger has been a very full featured and useful tool for teaching.
Thank the gods for JetBrains. I love their software.
Excellent business model, I get to keep the software I bought when the license expires. Never forced to continually pay for something you don't see value in updating. I think that's one of the key factors which drives them to continue to improve their products. If future version of their products wasn't vastly improved over the previous then people wouldn't upgrade because their current version serves them perfectly fine. And if you don't like this years update, maybe you'll like next years. No downsides whatsoever.
Never used any of their TeamCity/Spaces stuff but it looks cool. I can definitely say I'm a fan of their IDEs though. Use them every day.
Excellent business model, I get to keep the software I bought when the license expires. Never forced to continually pay for something you don't see value in updating. I think that's one of the key factors which drives them to continue to improve their products. If future version of their products wasn't vastly improved over the previous then people wouldn't upgrade because their current version serves them perfectly fine. And if you don't like this years update, maybe you'll like next years. No downsides whatsoever.
Never used any of their TeamCity/Spaces stuff but it looks cool. I can definitely say I'm a fan of their IDEs though. Use them every day.
> Never used any of their TeamCity/Spaces stuff but it looks cool. I can definitely say I'm a fan of their IDEs though. Use them every day.
I looked into the cloud offerings they have, the CI system is way more powerful than what I am using (bitbucket pipelines) and I'm actually pushing the limits of what I can sanely do there, so I may actually move over soon.
I looked into the cloud offerings they have, the CI system is way more powerful than what I am using (bitbucket pipelines) and I'm actually pushing the limits of what I can sanely do there, so I may actually move over soon.
I'm a big fan of teamcity - might be because it's the first CI system I used professionally, but compared to Jenkins it just works (batteries included) and compared to circleci I find the configuration much less repeatitive and UI richer in terms of reporting / feedback.
Yet to try the cloud hosted version, but it's on my list as the only downside for my personal usage is the minimum ram requirement (I try to keep my hobby projects Infrastructure as close to $0 cost / month as possible)
Yet to try the cloud hosted version, but it's on my list as the only downside for my personal usage is the minimum ram requirement (I try to keep my hobby projects Infrastructure as close to $0 cost / month as possible)
It is interesting that they initially offered subscription model without unexpirable license. But because of community backlash they changed it and people seem to be happy with the outcome.
Listen to your users.
Listen to your users.
> It is interesting that they initially offered subscription model without unexpirable license.
I wasn't even aware they ever did licenses that 'fully expire' but I'm glad they have their current model.
I wasn't even aware they ever did licenses that 'fully expire' but I'm glad they have their current model.
It went Buy_every_version_you_want -> Hard_license -> Outcry -> Current model.
Current model still isn't perfect as you only get the version that existed when your sub starts not when it ends. So if your sub expires you actually have to downgrade the product to an old version.
Before if you bought a major point release you would get all minor point releases as upgrades. Now you don't even get any bug fixes that occurred since your sub started.
I love their products though.
Before if you bought a major point release you would get all minor point releases as upgrades. Now you don't even get any bug fixes that occurred since your sub started.
I love their products though.
You'll get bugfixes (all .Z releases in X.Y.Z scheme).
Well, I think it's fair. If there was no subscription model, this would be the same as buying the version that was available at the time of your purchase. Everything that gets released after that is only a teaser that nags you to continue your subscription. You don't need to update.
Before the licensing change if you purchased a major version such as 5.0 you would get all upgrades for free until 6.0. This was the change that caused the uproar because that was no longer the case.
I feel like you are understating the backlash they faced. I came back from a vacation the day after they announced it and checked here, /r/programming, and a few other developer-focused forums including their own site and it was like the world was on fire. There were very few people who supported the change or were even indifferent. It seemed like the entire community united against it. JetBrains really didn't have a choice but to listen. And thankfully they did; their products are invaluable to us at this point.
Just out of interest, what other development-focused forums are there?
Forums in general have been dying out for a while now, unfortunately. I think this was back in August 2015 and at the time, I was an active member of some now-dead forums on the ProBoards network and I distinctly remember looking at either laravel.io or the Laracasts forums to gauge reaction.
I see. All I have left is this and the programming subreddit. The latter suffers a lot from new programmers and unrelated content (something like „I wrote my first HTML Tag today). Programming language specific subreddits suffer from a low number of subscribers. YC suffers from elite mindsets and arrogance (most notably on topics like modern javascript)
I ran (self-hosted) TeamCity at a division of Disney for years with hundreds of projects across teams with lots of complex dependencies. To this day (though I haven't kept up as much in recent years), it's far and away the most powerful CI system I've ever used. Rock solid stability, to boot. And it's only become better and better over the years.
Does that mean it's right for every job? Not at all. Sometimes you just need simple and accessible. Things like CircleCI or Travis or Heroku's CI. But not Jenkins. I put Jenkins into the same category as TeamCity, and it falls far short.
If you've outgrown some of the other options and need really powerful CI, I can't recommend TeamCity enough.
Does that mean it's right for every job? Not at all. Sometimes you just need simple and accessible. Things like CircleCI or Travis or Heroku's CI. But not Jenkins. I put Jenkins into the same category as TeamCity, and it falls far short.
If you've outgrown some of the other options and need really powerful CI, I can't recommend TeamCity enough.
> Never forced to continually pay for something you don't see value in updating.
I'm glad they dialed back to this reasonable compromise. I am a big fan and was a paying subscriber (personally, in addition to a work license) when they changed licensing terms to brick the software when your yearly subscription was up. There was a predictable outrage, but they fortunately listened and changed to the present arrangement.
I'm glad they dialed back to this reasonable compromise. I am a big fan and was a paying subscriber (personally, in addition to a work license) when they changed licensing terms to brick the software when your yearly subscription was up. There was a predictable outrage, but they fortunately listened and changed to the present arrangement.
> The Prague-based startup, whose programming language last year became Google’s preferred development tool for Android, is worth about $7 billion,
Am I the only one bothered by articles describing companies like Jetbrains as a startup?
The definition that Google gives from Oxford Languages is: "a newly established business." Investopedia says "The term startup refers to a company in the first stages of operations."
This is a well-established company (founded 20 years ago, according to Wikipedia!) that has grown organically for years by offering products their users love (I'm a GoLand user myself!). Why use the "startup" term where it really doesn't belong?
Am I the only one bothered by articles describing companies like Jetbrains as a startup?
The definition that Google gives from Oxford Languages is: "a newly established business." Investopedia says "The term startup refers to a company in the first stages of operations."
This is a well-established company (founded 20 years ago, according to Wikipedia!) that has grown organically for years by offering products their users love (I'm a GoLand user myself!). Why use the "startup" term where it really doesn't belong?
Compared to other startups like AT&T, IBM etc, Jetbrains is a relatively new startup.
According to lord PG, Start up = Growth
http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html
http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html
I've seen this phenomenon elsewhere. To some circles, everything that is not a huge, public, IPO'd tech company is considered a "startup".
Jetbrains is one of the few tool vendors that do not have to aggressively market their way into our tech stacks. That alone is a key indication of how good and useful their products are. Great that this is rewarded. I really hope that they will stay this way and grow organically rather than with force.
(Long-term user/customer here. I am using IntelliJ since like version 2 (with some gaps).)
(Long-term user/customer here. I am using IntelliJ since like version 2 (with some gaps).)
This is a great point. Every time a new tool comes out (Atom, VSCode, etc.) I find myself eventually going back to IntelliJ because 1) it just works 2) the customer service is great 3) reasonably priced and 4) it works _with everything_ and _on everything_.
Agreed, they’re definitely a “stand on the strength of our products” company. IntelliJ IDEA is not just the best IDE I’ve ever used, it’s one of the best software products I’ve used, period.
Also, they’ve got a great open source license program! https://www.jetbrains.com/community/opensource/#support
Also, they’ve got a great open source license program! https://www.jetbrains.com/community/opensource/#support
Hopping on the IntelliJ love train. I've been using it for the last five years. It is the one piece of software I still get excited about. Heck they've even made fonts interesting.
And not to forget that their strongest competitors were Eclipse, backed by IBM, and NetBeans, backed by Sun Microsystems. To stand your ground against two enterprise backed open source alternatives as a startup without outside money is quite impressive.
Yes, it's sad but true; IBM ran eclipse into the ground over the last ten years and they gradually lost the mindshare they had 15-20 years ago when they were best in class and Intellij was a new kid on the block. That's on IBM. They completely mismanaged this project for a decade plus. They failed to keep up with a changing market and instead focused on irrelevant stuff not related to the core use case of, you know, developing stuff on the JVM. I was able to get away with using it doing Java until about 2016. Then I joined a bog standard Spring Boot + gradle project and it just couldn't do anything with it. I had no choice but to switch to Intellij.
Eclipse is still there but I can't use it for the vast majority of projects I work on these days. Kotlin support is a joke. Gradle support never worked properly for me (though in fairness, I stopped trying 3 years ago).
But Eclipse was a great IDE once upon a time. I still miss incremental compilation that actually works consistently and is actually incremental & fast. That's a trick that Intellij never even came close to doing. Intellij fakes it with inconsistent & super flaky caching (hence the top level menu item with the name: "invalidate caches"). And then they still manage being about 2 orders of magnitudes slower (about 100x: 10s vs 50-100ms). Anything over a second would be an order of magnitude already because the Eclipse incremental java compiler really is that fast. I've never seen intellij launch a test faster than 5 seconds; even for a 1 line change in a class that is not depended on by anything (i.e. the work is: compile 1 class), like a test. Incremental in Eclipse used to mean: it's compiled & ready to run by the time your finger reaches the next key on the keyboard: you can't type faster than it compiles incrementally and the test runs in process so there is no jvm startup overhead. Error markers would update in real time and be typically gone within a second or so of fixing the problem.
Even today, Intellij never gets even remotely close to that. But it works and does the job and Eclipse just stopped even being able to make sense of the projects I threw at it a few years ago which makes the whole performance argument irrelevant. My biggest gripe with Intellij is actually just the endless amount of time I seem to wait for it to index, rebuild, and stop lying about the compilation state of my projects. I just can't trust it either way. It says it's fine and it's not or the other way around. Either way, I always have to double and triple check it more or less continuously and it is sucking up non trivial amounts of my day.
Eclipse is still there but I can't use it for the vast majority of projects I work on these days. Kotlin support is a joke. Gradle support never worked properly for me (though in fairness, I stopped trying 3 years ago).
But Eclipse was a great IDE once upon a time. I still miss incremental compilation that actually works consistently and is actually incremental & fast. That's a trick that Intellij never even came close to doing. Intellij fakes it with inconsistent & super flaky caching (hence the top level menu item with the name: "invalidate caches"). And then they still manage being about 2 orders of magnitudes slower (about 100x: 10s vs 50-100ms). Anything over a second would be an order of magnitude already because the Eclipse incremental java compiler really is that fast. I've never seen intellij launch a test faster than 5 seconds; even for a 1 line change in a class that is not depended on by anything (i.e. the work is: compile 1 class), like a test. Incremental in Eclipse used to mean: it's compiled & ready to run by the time your finger reaches the next key on the keyboard: you can't type faster than it compiles incrementally and the test runs in process so there is no jvm startup overhead. Error markers would update in real time and be typically gone within a second or so of fixing the problem.
Even today, Intellij never gets even remotely close to that. But it works and does the job and Eclipse just stopped even being able to make sense of the projects I threw at it a few years ago which makes the whole performance argument irrelevant. My biggest gripe with Intellij is actually just the endless amount of time I seem to wait for it to index, rebuild, and stop lying about the compilation state of my projects. I just can't trust it either way. It says it's fine and it's not or the other way around. Either way, I always have to double and triple check it more or less continuously and it is sucking up non trivial amounts of my day.
I strongly believe their single user license was responsible for a lot of their success.
One of the dynamics that has made open source such a juggernaut is a consequence of the 'give a man a little power': Those with the purse strings making strategic decisions for the company without considering the benefits of buying a piece of software.
"I won't pay for that." could be answered with "That's okay, it's free!"
Jetbrains isn't free, but the license explicitly binds the copy to your person, not your location or computer. I can have my private copy running at work and left open on my personal computer at home.
You won't pay for my IDE? That's okay, I already have a license.
One of the dynamics that has made open source such a juggernaut is a consequence of the 'give a man a little power': Those with the purse strings making strategic decisions for the company without considering the benefits of buying a piece of software.
"I won't pay for that." could be answered with "That's okay, it's free!"
Jetbrains isn't free, but the license explicitly binds the copy to your person, not your location or computer. I can have my private copy running at work and left open on my personal computer at home.
You won't pay for my IDE? That's okay, I already have a license.
Seconded. Love the fact that they don’t get petty about different machines etc.
I started using their free versions for non-commercial projects and have paid for commercial use.
It’s really worth trying JetBrains, even if you’re a vim/emacs devotee... I’d say I’m at least 10x productive in IntelliJ compared to other editors, for example, after coding Java for 20+ years. I’ve watched programmers I consider way above me in ability move so slowly compared to hopping around / refactoring / debugging in JBs.
I started using their free versions for non-commercial projects and have paid for commercial use.
It’s really worth trying JetBrains, even if you’re a vim/emacs devotee... I’d say I’m at least 10x productive in IntelliJ compared to other editors, for example, after coding Java for 20+ years. I’ve watched programmers I consider way above me in ability move so slowly compared to hopping around / refactoring / debugging in JBs.
The thing that most impresses me about JetBrains' products, after the very real "This was made by developers" feel to them, and the excellent community interaction, and the regular and plentiful updates.. is the price. They don't price gouge their users. They could double their prices and still have plenty of sales (but I guess they'd probably lose a lot of personal licenses.)
I'm sure they have actually done the numbers and perhaps even determined they are making more money this way, but from an outside/ignorant perspective it sure feels nice for a company to not have some MBA pushing that profit curve for all its worth and delivering damn good value for money for once.
I'm sure they have actually done the numbers and perhaps even determined they are making more money this way, but from an outside/ignorant perspective it sure feels nice for a company to not have some MBA pushing that profit curve for all its worth and delivering damn good value for money for once.
They worked out that every personal licensee is an advocate, if not an outright evangelist for their product.
Upvote 100x; I completely agree.
As a counter-example look at Sencha, who have long alienated developers using their ExtJS toolkit, and this has deepened since the takeover by Idera.
As a counter-example look at Sencha, who have long alienated developers using their ExtJS toolkit, and this has deepened since the takeover by Idera.
is the EXTjs tookit any good?. I am in a project where I am forced to use EXTJS classic ( coming from React).
Probably want to stick to 4.2.1 GPL [1] (there are GPL versions on 5.x and 6.x but only minor point releases)
I think it's great for enterprise form-fill-in applications. It's a complete widget set for doing in the browser what GUI apps from 20 years ago had in Java (for example)
I have no interest whatsoever in writing web applications by using multiple components from multiple sources. I want to use a single toolkit. ExtJS satisfies my requirements. The tooling is awkward, but I've learned how to use it.
examples
"web desktop" https://docs.sencha.com/extjs/4.2.1/extjs-build/examples/des...
widget library (classic) https://docs.sencha.com/extjs/4.2.1/extjs-build/examples/bui...
Please shout (email in profile) if you need any help. Good luck!
[1] http://cdn.sencha.com/ext/gpl/ext-4.2.1-gpl.zip
I think it's great for enterprise form-fill-in applications. It's a complete widget set for doing in the browser what GUI apps from 20 years ago had in Java (for example)
I have no interest whatsoever in writing web applications by using multiple components from multiple sources. I want to use a single toolkit. ExtJS satisfies my requirements. The tooling is awkward, but I've learned how to use it.
examples
"web desktop" https://docs.sencha.com/extjs/4.2.1/extjs-build/examples/des...
widget library (classic) https://docs.sencha.com/extjs/4.2.1/extjs-build/examples/bui...
Please shout (email in profile) if you need any help. Good luck!
[1] http://cdn.sencha.com/ext/gpl/ext-4.2.1-gpl.zip
My project is a frontend for a CRUD app which a huge database. I will definitely ask for help when I am at my wits end! Thank you !
My biggest gripe is that ExtJS doesn't html encode the replacements in the component templates. This is something that react got right from the start.
Exactly, that's how I started using JetBrains products, I was working in a shop where everyone used Eclipse, and one developer kept telling everyone that if they tried Intellij for 30 days they wouldn't go back. I think there was only one developer that tried it and then went back to Eclipse.
As a counter, I have gotten 3 100+ person dev shops to adopt it.
.. and IntelliJ Ultimate has plugins that brings all the features of all of their IDEs(PHP, GO, Android, RUST, JS...) except CLion.
Does IntelliJ Ultimate include their C# functionality from Rider, as well? I used to use IntelliJ Ultimate, but I don't remember it including C# support.
I guess AppCode and Rider aren't included. As a Linux user I completely forgot they existed :).
No, you have to use Rider for that. That said Rider is fantastic and their Unity support is top notch. Going between Rider for game code and IntelliJ for the backend was a godsend when it happened. Makes my day to day workload manageable.
I wish the owners of Delphi go this route instead of whatever them do.
This could have make Delphi far more popular than its now, I not cause a exodus of talent...
This could have make Delphi far more popular than its now, I not cause a exodus of talent...
It’s rare these to read stories of software billionaires and think it’s well deserved. This is one of those rare cases.
Also, IntelliJ runs on Java, for all the bashing that Java gets on HN, it’s an example of how “what technology you pick is less important than your focus on user experience”. It’s amazing that their products are so performant on Java
Also, IntelliJ runs on Java, for all the bashing that Java gets on HN, it’s an example of how “what technology you pick is less important than your focus on user experience”. It’s amazing that their products are so performant on Java
TBF, Jetbrains IDEs do feel sluggish at least on macOS compared to the alternatives (like Xcode or VSCode) on my mid-2014 13" MBP. I don't know if the JVM has performance problems specific to macOS which would explain why big UI applications feel so laggy, or whether other systems with more recent CPUs simply have more reserves to hide the lower UI performance though (the latter is probably more likely).
Almost always when a JB IDE is being reported as sluggish the problem is you're running out of heap space. Go to Help | Change Memory Settings and give it some more, see if that helps.
As a counterpoint, for a project of decently large size on my 2019 MBP, IntelliJ is snappy and a delight to work with, while Xcode takes up 30 GB of space, takes minutes to boot up, and gives me syntax highlighting and autocompletion about as reliably as a broken clock tells time.
Xcode opens in seconds for me, and my projects are massive. Sure, it can be slow to do certain things, but its startup time is generally ahead of every Java-based IDE I have every used.
JetBrains IDEs always takes ages to start and index my code (especially compared to Sublime), but the jump to def, symbol and other search features are fast after the initial index.
I have a MBP of about the same vintage, but I retired it from hard tasks a couple years ago. It is a 6 year old machine, we can't expect it to perform well.
Performance got worse on Linux, too. A year ago, JavaDoc would be displayed instantly. Now I have to wait 5-8 seconds for the IDE to display information about a class / method.
It may be a kernel related bug from what I have found on the net, but it seems strange that some operations are still fast, while others take several seconds (like opening a menu).
Android Studio (which I understand is a Jetbrains IDE) has always been laggy to be too. I suspect it's because I'm only using it for personal projects on older consumer machines (one Linux, one Windows) with ~16 gigs of RAM (which also has to fit an Android VM); the people who are having no issues are probably running on newer machines with a lot more resources.
Back in the 90s Java was slower and used a load more memory. But the competition was C/C++ apps with native GUIs. Nowadays with the likes of Electron as competition Java apps are fast with low memory usage.
That is actually a misconception. You may have this mental classification of Java as a slow language if you looked at its performance 20 years ago. Now it's actually really fast, it goes neck to neck with C++. Sure, Rust or Go or C (or definitely assembler) might be faster in some workloads, but Java is definitely very very fast nowadays. It uses a lot of memory because of the way Garbage Collection works, but it is fast. It's definitely faster than Python, Ruby, PHP and many other kids on the block...
> it goes neck to neck with C++. Sure, Rust or Go or C
I hate to be that guy but 1) java does not go neck to neck with c++ unless you mean it can be in the same order of magnitude and 2) C++ is not slower than C or Go or Rust
Note: by c++ I mean c++ compiled by a decent compiler e.g. gcc/clang/msvc
I hate to be that guy but 1) java does not go neck to neck with c++ unless you mean it can be in the same order of magnitude and 2) C++ is not slower than C or Go or Rust
Note: by c++ I mean c++ compiled by a decent compiler e.g. gcc/clang/msvc
Yes, out of Rust, C, C++ and Go, the slow one is going to be the one with a GC.
> It's definitely faster than Python, Ruby, PHP and many other kids on the block...
I don't know why, but I got a good laugh from that statement. Those "kids" are all the same age or older than Java; PHP, Ruby, and Java were introduced within a few months of each other in 95 and Python dates back to 91.
I don't know why, but I got a good laugh from that statement. Those "kids" are all the same age or older than Java; PHP, Ruby, and Java were introduced within a few months of each other in 95 and Python dates back to 91.
I know, I didn't say "kids" implying these languages were new, it was just a manner of speaking.
Yeah, I assumed as much. I doubt anyone is calling those languages "kids" at this point, even with PHP's reputation. I just found it funny to word it like that.
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>It's definitely faster than Python, Ruby, PHP and many other kids on the block...
I would seriously contest the speed of Java compared to modern PHP. The JIT puts PHP at near-C performance levels with competently written code. Which shouldn't be surprising if you realize PHP is largely a "wrapper" around C.
I would seriously contest the speed of Java compared to modern PHP. The JIT puts PHP at near-C performance levels with competently written code. Which shouldn't be surprising if you realize PHP is largely a "wrapper" around C.
https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r19&hw=...
Vertx framework which is based on Java is at 8th position and PHP is 18th.
But the larger point is performance is only one aspect while considering which programming lang. or framework to use
Vertx framework which is based on Java is at 8th position and PHP is 18th.
But the larger point is performance is only one aspect while considering which programming lang. or framework to use
I think you've proved your second point by getting your first wrong. The benchmarks posted are for a stack including PHP, not PHP itself (and not the fastest stack with e.g. pgsql).
Also, I don't think thosd benchmarks use php 8, which is the first version with the jit that the post above referred to.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/onilab.com/blog/php-7-vs-php-8/...
From the page above The bottomline: PHP 8 is still slower than PHP 7.
This is a realistic comparison of running Magento on php7 vs php8.
From the page above The bottomline: PHP 8 is still slower than PHP 7.
This is a realistic comparison of running Magento on php7 vs php8.
You may not know that Java has a JIT and a AOT if you want even a bit more perf for cold start. And they are really good.
Java is fast enough for most things, but try working with an array of a million objects in C++ vs Java and you will see the difference.
In Java you will have to deal with an array with a million pointers to a million objects and in C++ you will deal with a sequential segment of memory that is a million times the size of your object - and mostly in your CPUs cache. That alone will be much, much faster.
But you can't do that in Java at all.
In Java you will have to deal with an array with a million pointers to a million objects and in C++ you will deal with a sequential segment of memory that is a million times the size of your object - and mostly in your CPUs cache. That alone will be much, much faster.
But you can't do that in Java at all.
You typically wouldn't use an array with a million objects in Java if you cared about performance though (for exactly that reason), you'd architect it some other way. Using SoA style when appropriate, for example.
Do you mean Structure of Arrays? Can you point to some resource to learn more about Java SoA? Quick google search didn't yield anything useful.
I think in this case you’re holding the tool wrong.
When you want, for example, an array of (float x, float y) “objects” in Java, you just keep them as two arrays (float[] x, float[] y) — and I guarantee it will use the same amount of memory and will have nearly the same speed as C++ (depends on what cache locality you need for a specific task, it might even be faster to have two separate arrays for some tasks).
So yeah, depending on the language, a slightly different implementation is more efficient, so one has to know its tools.
Also, as far as I know, when project Valhalla extension goes live, you will have an option to do packed structs the same way as C++ or C# does.
Edit: Oops, there was another reply about the same in the thread. I should remember to refresh the threads before answering in the morning.
When you want, for example, an array of (float x, float y) “objects” in Java, you just keep them as two arrays (float[] x, float[] y) — and I guarantee it will use the same amount of memory and will have nearly the same speed as C++ (depends on what cache locality you need for a specific task, it might even be faster to have two separate arrays for some tasks).
So yeah, depending on the language, a slightly different implementation is more efficient, so one has to know its tools.
Also, as far as I know, when project Valhalla extension goes live, you will have an option to do packed structs the same way as C++ or C# does.
Edit: Oops, there was another reply about the same in the thread. I should remember to refresh the threads before answering in the morning.
That would be a workaround, but it annoys me when you have to make a workaround for something that is available in the language it set out to replace.
And if you are doing something like nearest cluster mapping, or anything else where you process your data in linear order you are not going to get the optimized cache locality. Plus you can't read the file with mmap if your data is from there.
And if you are doing something like nearest cluster mapping, or anything else where you process your data in linear order you are not going to get the optimized cache locality. Plus you can't read the file with mmap if your data is from there.
I agree that Java is not the best tool for things like analyzing mmap'ed data. Java replaces C++ by being better in some things, not all.
I would go further and say that if your job is analyzing terabytes of memory-mapped binary files, maybe C++ is not optimal either, and investing in specialized languages like Shakti/K would pay off quickly.
I would go further and say that if your job is analyzing terabytes of memory-mapped binary files, maybe C++ is not optimal either, and investing in specialized languages like Shakti/K would pay off quickly.
> Now it's actually really fast, it goes neck to neck with C++.
yet every time I try a Jetbrains IDE every action seems to take 10x the time to be processed than it takes in QtCreator
yet every time I try a Jetbrains IDE every action seems to take 10x the time to be processed than it takes in QtCreator
Once it's finished indexing things it feels darn instant to me. What hardware do you use? Also which programming language? I've used IntelliJ with Java, Scala, Kotlin, Groovy, Markdown, and many file types and it's really snappy.
I have an i7 6900k and 64 GB of ram. Indexing on the project I work on takes something like 3 hours. But I'm not even talking about that - just the basic user interaction, opening a menu, switching tabs... It's notslow but it drags its feet a bit.
Absolutely agree. The amount of value that Jetbrains software provides far exceeds its price. Their existence is a net benefit to the whole software development field.
>It’s amazing that their products are so performant on Java
It's a total memory hog though.
It's a total memory hog though.
Folks who still think that Java is a bad language either from the perspective of developer ergonomics or performance probably haven't programmed in it since the Java 4 days and still think of the language as the language of Enterprise Java Beans, Java Applets and hundreds of lines of XML. It is not that language anymore. Modern Java is blisteringly fast(and has been for a while) and almost the same level as C# in terms of developers ergonomics
I haven't programmed in Java since around 6 - when Spring was just about to cement its dominance. The ergonomics then were bad too. It seems lots of quality-of-life features borrowed from other languages went into subsequent versions
Admittedly, Java suffers from the same issue as C#; those ergonomics come from a bad case of kitchen-sink-itis. In your own code it's fine, but it's a hassle going through 8 different paradigms in one legacy codebase.
These days, though, I feel like Java the language should die in favor of Kotlin (also invented by Jetbrains). I feel like with Kotlin you get all of the goodness of Java (and especially the JVM) without so much of the verbose "cruftiness" that is a result of Java the language being 25 years old (wow now I feel old!)
Modern Java has nowhere near the developer ergonomics of C#, I can tell you that much. You are still manually writing tons of boilerplate, you still cannot express something as simple as List<int> (and the JSR for that is on its, what, 8th iteration? for a problem that existed since before C# existed?), there is no async/await in 2020 when even C++ has figured it out, the new module management system is a joke that solves zero problems and almost seems like it was only invented to modularize the JRE...
It's got a few bells and whistles, although I can't think of a single one that wasn't stolen syntax and all from C# at least two years after the fact, except for the aforementioned modules. But 'var' is the only thing I can think of that's actually improved the Java experience since lambdas. They've committed to a six month rolling release cycle without actually having anything to put in the releases.
That said, Java devs think C# is slow, C# devs think Java is slow, and people who are neither think both are slow. It is no longer 1995 where bytecode is interpreted; the slowdown relative to C++ is 2.5x-3x for both. Any leftover 'slow' opinions are bordering on superstition at this point.
It's got a few bells and whistles, although I can't think of a single one that wasn't stolen syntax and all from C# at least two years after the fact, except for the aforementioned modules. But 'var' is the only thing I can think of that's actually improved the Java experience since lambdas. They've committed to a six month rolling release cycle without actually having anything to put in the releases.
That said, Java devs think C# is slow, C# devs think Java is slow, and people who are neither think both are slow. It is no longer 1995 where bytecode is interpreted; the slowdown relative to C++ is 2.5x-3x for both. Any leftover 'slow' opinions are bordering on superstition at this point.
I’m a huge fan of C# and how Microsoft has been improving .NET recently but as a C# fan I think you’re being a little unfair to Java. It has a slightly different perspective on language evolution than C#, in that they try to keep the language core smaller. I was overwhelmed by syntax when I first started programming C#, from all the different kinds of parameters (optional, named, ref, out, in) to all the different kinds of properties, to the actual difference between properties and fields. To this day I think it’s silly that certain tools and style guides will suggest you replace public fields with public auto-properties, when there is no difference in encapsulation in practice. In this sense C# is closer to the culture of C++, where the bar for adding features is quite low.
Java just moves a lot slower, and has a different philosophy for adding features, and the core team seems averse to introducing new forms. An example I ran into the other day is applying first-class functions in Java: in C#, this looks like
Java just moves a lot slower, and has a different philosophy for adding features, and the core team seems averse to introducing new forms. An example I ran into the other day is applying first-class functions in Java: in C#, this looks like
lambda(arg1, arg2)
lambda.apply(arg1, arg2)
> This is definitely more verbose and arguably uglier, but it hews closer to the object-oriented style because it’s visibly falling a method on an object. Of course this is happening in C# as well, but it’s hidden by syntactic sugar.
It's hard to appreciate how addictive the sugar is if you never had it.
Frankly, language level auto properties -alone- would get rid of 25-33% of the pain I feel writing Java.
Of course, there is always Scala on the JVM Side; which gives you all sorts of sugar, but in some ways -too much-.
It's hard to appreciate how addictive the sugar is if you never had it.
Frankly, language level auto properties -alone- would get rid of 25-33% of the pain I feel writing Java.
Of course, there is always Scala on the JVM Side; which gives you all sorts of sugar, but in some ways -too much-.
I think from an object-oriented design perspective that it's quite easy to overuse public field members and that a lot of getters and setters is generally a code smell. Nonetheless, properties are a very sharp tool and having them in the toolkit is wonderful.
I've never used Scala but it seems to go much further in the syntactic sugar and semantic complexity direction, more akin to F# than C# (though with less elegant syntax, to my eye).
I've never used Scala but it seems to go much further in the syntactic sugar and semantic complexity direction, more akin to F# than C# (though with less elegant syntax, to my eye).
There have been many iterations of 'Java except it doesn't suck', but which all were extremely similar to Java - Xtend, Groovy, etc. So when Scala came onto the scene, even though it was a serious functional language and encouraged a very different style of programming than Java, it was seized on as a 'Java except it doesn't suck' language because it was much more different than previous ones and so felt more like a fresh start. The sentiment hasn't died yet, although Kotlin should at this point be treated as the official 'Java except it doesn't suck' language, since it's designed directly for it, is different enough, and has mainstream adoption.
Lombok fixes most of the getter/setter issues. It is also supported in IntelliJ
However bad the Java situation is, Lombok as a solution is worse. It uses unsupported and undocumented APIs of the compiler, it autogenerates code that is in some cases flat wrong (like the infamous enum @ToString), and it does this through a mechanism of the language specifically designed for pure metadata - code that compiles with annotations should not cease compiling without them. And, because of the way it does what it does, IDEs must have explicit Lombok support built into them. It is, effectively, a different language that's a superset of Java; at that point, you may as well actually use a superset of Java like Groovy, and then you don't have tools prone to breaking.
I’m not a huge fan of libraries that use attributes as a hook for code generation in C# either, though thankfully there’s less need for something like Lombok.
I am not saying Java's model of never adding important things is better or worse. I might now say it is worse, but that wasn't the point I was making - I was simply responding to a comment saying Java has added important things, when it hasn't.
Also, auto-properties are binary compatible with computed properties, whereas public fields aren't, and you can use 'ref' on a public field whereas you can't make a ref to a property.
Also, auto-properties are binary compatible with computed properties, whereas public fields aren't, and you can use 'ref' on a public field whereas you can't make a ref to a property.
I realize there are differences between fields and auto-props when using certain other features, but from a design perspective, these are identical within an assembly:
You might also look at the JDK flight recorder, which is an amazing feature that .NET doesn't have. The Java perspective is adding complexity to the runtime fiest instead of the language.
public int Foo { get; set; }
public int Bar;
You might also look at the JDK flight recorder, which is an amazing feature that .NET doesn't have. The Java perspective is adding complexity to the runtime fiest instead of the language.
Having primitive int as opposed just using Integer in the first place was the original sin of Java. I am perfectly fine with not proliferating that further, List<Integer> with autoboxing pretty much allows you to use primitives when working with List<Integer> and the workflow is seamless. await would definitely be nice, it's a shame Java doesn't have it. It's a bit weird to call the features they have added as "stolen from C#", these features have existed in other languages for decades- ML had type inference in the 70s, lambdas have been there since the 60s. They are not "C# features".
There have been many useful improvements between Java 8 (the lambda release) and Java 11, I haven't looked beyond 11 as I haven't worked in Java in over a year and that was the last version I wrote code with. I don't even consider var to be that useful of an improvement, the biggest pains of lack of type inference were solved in the Java 7 era with the diamond operator which eliminated the need to specify often times deep nested generic arguments on both sides. Now var was basically a bikeshed problem. Between 8 and 11, they improved Strings under the hood to move away from being backed by char arrays. This has huge implications on web services and data processing apps in reducing the memory foot print as most of them wrangle a large amount of json. Also they added an HttpClient to standard library somewhere between 8 and 11 greatly eliminating the need to depend on 3rd parties. They also added the FlightRecorder (although I haven't had a chance to personally use it yet) which improves the the instrumentation story. Not every release is going to have sexy language features but they do contain improvements with direct impact on production software- the String class compaction improvement is the best example, it is not sexy, I doubt it even had a thread on HN but in the real world it measurably improved the performance profile of a large category of applications for free. Release cycles are just numbers, most people in the real world are not keeping up with latest release and instead opting to upgrade to just the LTS releases which are on a much slower cadence of 3-4 year cycles.
There have been many useful improvements between Java 8 (the lambda release) and Java 11, I haven't looked beyond 11 as I haven't worked in Java in over a year and that was the last version I wrote code with. I don't even consider var to be that useful of an improvement, the biggest pains of lack of type inference were solved in the Java 7 era with the diamond operator which eliminated the need to specify often times deep nested generic arguments on both sides. Now var was basically a bikeshed problem. Between 8 and 11, they improved Strings under the hood to move away from being backed by char arrays. This has huge implications on web services and data processing apps in reducing the memory foot print as most of them wrangle a large amount of json. Also they added an HttpClient to standard library somewhere between 8 and 11 greatly eliminating the need to depend on 3rd parties. They also added the FlightRecorder (although I haven't had a chance to personally use it yet) which improves the the instrumentation story. Not every release is going to have sexy language features but they do contain improvements with direct impact on production software- the String class compaction improvement is the best example, it is not sexy, I doubt it even had a thread on HN but in the real world it measurably improved the performance profile of a large category of applications for free. Release cycles are just numbers, most people in the real world are not keeping up with latest release and instead opting to upgrade to just the LTS releases which are on a much slower cadence of 3-4 year cycles.
And for those who weren't happy with Java, JetBrains also gave us Kotlin, which fixes many of Java's problems without overshooting into the FP space.
I used to share the "Java is bad" mindset, but now I realize Java (at least the JVM) is actually really good.
The main issues people assume with Java are that it has slow runtime and it's verbose.
But the JVM is actually rather fast. Especially compared to JavaScript and Python, which aren't even compiled (and which I still agree with the "it's crap" hivemind). Anything that needs real performance you should be outsourcing to C/C++ FFI calls, and as long as you do that your Java app's performance should be OK. And a key cause of Java's big slowdown are checks e.g. for null-pointers and casts, which are much better than C++/Rust's approach of being unsafe-by-default.
Java is verbose, but JetBrain's awesome IDE single-handedly fixes this problem - writing POJOs and using long-named functions and classes is fast, and IntelliJ will hide excess boilerplate so that even reading code is easier. And if verbosity is still too much of an issue, there are JVM alternatives like Kotlin.
The main issues people assume with Java are that it has slow runtime and it's verbose.
But the JVM is actually rather fast. Especially compared to JavaScript and Python, which aren't even compiled (and which I still agree with the "it's crap" hivemind). Anything that needs real performance you should be outsourcing to C/C++ FFI calls, and as long as you do that your Java app's performance should be OK. And a key cause of Java's big slowdown are checks e.g. for null-pointers and casts, which are much better than C++/Rust's approach of being unsafe-by-default.
Java is verbose, but JetBrain's awesome IDE single-handedly fixes this problem - writing POJOs and using long-named functions and classes is fast, and IntelliJ will hide excess boilerplate so that even reading code is easier. And if verbosity is still too much of an issue, there are JVM alternatives like Kotlin.
> which are much better than C++/Rust's approach of being unsafe-by-default.
Nitpick: Rust is safer than Java by default. You can't ever dereference a null pointer (only raw pointers can be null, not references) or make a cast without dipping into unsafe code.
Nitpick: Rust is safer than Java by default. You can't ever dereference a null pointer (only raw pointers can be null, not references) or make a cast without dipping into unsafe code.
Even though the specs says nothing about it, modern JavaScript is almost always JITted, i.e. V8 that powers Node and Chrome, the rest of the browser js engines
Rust's approach of being unsafe-by-default? That's kind of the exact opposite of Rust.
Going a bit off tangent here:
A billion dollars is a ludicrous sum of money. No one on the face of the earth deserves that level wealth.
If you ever seen an actual billion dollar product or even a product hundreds of millions of dollars (in cost, not revenue generation) it is always built by hundreds of people. Your physical two hands, strength and intelligence limits you to a lifetime gdp output of well less than 1 billion. Therefore whenever you see a billionaire, the billionaire achieved his wealth off the backs of others.
A more fair distribution of wealth for jetbrains is one where the wealth is more evenly distributed among everyone who works at the company. There is a term for this... it's called communism/socialism and it has a set of downsides but I don't want to walk to far down that road.
Suffice to say capitalism works, but it works because it's not fair. No billionaire ever deserves to be a billionaire because he simply does not have the physical or mental ability to produce that much wealth. It always must be taken from the hard work of others.
A billion dollars is a ludicrous sum of money. No one on the face of the earth deserves that level wealth.
If you ever seen an actual billion dollar product or even a product hundreds of millions of dollars (in cost, not revenue generation) it is always built by hundreds of people. Your physical two hands, strength and intelligence limits you to a lifetime gdp output of well less than 1 billion. Therefore whenever you see a billionaire, the billionaire achieved his wealth off the backs of others.
A more fair distribution of wealth for jetbrains is one where the wealth is more evenly distributed among everyone who works at the company. There is a term for this... it's called communism/socialism and it has a set of downsides but I don't want to walk to far down that road.
Suffice to say capitalism works, but it works because it's not fair. No billionaire ever deserves to be a billionaire because he simply does not have the physical or mental ability to produce that much wealth. It always must be taken from the hard work of others.
Ever played a video game like X3 where you can set up robot space traders to haul for you? You can only make $x flying between ports, but now you can make $5x or $10x. It's not that you're stealing from the robots, you're just making use of a resource that can be put to profitable use.
People are the same -- just another kind of resource, a black box that lets you make $5x. And the thing is, you deserve the $5x -- you took a system where nothing was being put to its best use, and now it is.
What I'm trying to say is I've worked on many projects that sucked because no one had the vision and hiring skills the IntelliJ people do, and if society could give someone a billion dollars to make every project work that well, it would be a good deal.
People are the same -- just another kind of resource, a black box that lets you make $5x. And the thing is, you deserve the $5x -- you took a system where nothing was being put to its best use, and now it is.
What I'm trying to say is I've worked on many projects that sucked because no one had the vision and hiring skills the IntelliJ people do, and if society could give someone a billion dollars to make every project work that well, it would be a good deal.
Happy for Jetbrains, I have been using their products for years and they did increase my productivity.
Lately most of their producuts are suffering of atrocious performance issues, both on osx and linux [1], I hope that they manage to sort them out, because lots of people are now reverting to older versions.
1. https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/JBR-2732
Lately most of their producuts are suffering of atrocious performance issues, both on osx and linux [1], I hope that they manage to sort them out, because lots of people are now reverting to older versions.
1. https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/JBR-2732
I don't think it's a coincidence that Jetbrains has created a beloved product without the help of VC money.
The longer I work in tech the more I see VC money as poison to good products. Because VC funded startups are forced to grow fast or die a lot of good, profitable, user focused ideas are trashed because they won't lead to rapid enough expansion.
Virtually every VC startup I've worked closely with or learned about in detail is doing something nearly everyone would agree is unethical, and a fairly large amount are doing things that are down right illegal spared only by the fact that they aren't big enough to warrant prosecution or even investigation.
Perpetual lip service is always paid to the notion that "we're a user focused company". While the mental gymnastics performed to convince everyone onboard that this is the case are fun to watch, it tragic to see nearly all good projects slowly devolving into ways of tricking the users... and in most cases still losing money.
All of the private money companies with no plans of acquisition I've worked for are all amazingly sane by contrast, and create genuinely good products. They have to, because they need to make more money then they spend to survive and are fine if the happy place for that to happen is 30 employees.
In some cases, if that product is really amazing, they become companies like Jetbrains.
The longer I work in tech the more I see VC money as poison to good products. Because VC funded startups are forced to grow fast or die a lot of good, profitable, user focused ideas are trashed because they won't lead to rapid enough expansion.
Virtually every VC startup I've worked closely with or learned about in detail is doing something nearly everyone would agree is unethical, and a fairly large amount are doing things that are down right illegal spared only by the fact that they aren't big enough to warrant prosecution or even investigation.
Perpetual lip service is always paid to the notion that "we're a user focused company". While the mental gymnastics performed to convince everyone onboard that this is the case are fun to watch, it tragic to see nearly all good projects slowly devolving into ways of tricking the users... and in most cases still losing money.
All of the private money companies with no plans of acquisition I've worked for are all amazingly sane by contrast, and create genuinely good products. They have to, because they need to make more money then they spend to survive and are fine if the happy place for that to happen is 30 employees.
In some cases, if that product is really amazing, they become companies like Jetbrains.
pg wrote a rebuttal to this in 2008: http://paulgraham.com/prcmc.html
It seems generally correct, i.e. VC works because the alternative sucks.
It seems generally correct, i.e. VC works because the alternative sucks.
Seems jet brains managed so there is an alternative that doesn’t suck?
That's a bit like saying "This person won the lottery, so therefore..."
Sure, it's possible. But having met a few founders, their lifestyle from taking VC money seems far preferable to the bootstrap approach. It's true that you have to grow, but if you have growth, then nothing else matters. And if you don't, then you're one of the most employable people in the entire world.
A shocking number of people, somehow, end up in insane amounts of debt by trying to start their own companies. And you're sort of forced to. An example: one of our family members had a lucrative pole barn business. (Apparently in the midwest, lots of people wanted pole barns built, or something.) But in order to pay his employees to go construct the pole barns, he needed loans, leveraged against the future income from the construction project.
Then 2008 hit. Poof! Contracts all went poof. And he was left holding the bag.
So, if you need employees, and you're bootstrapped, how exactly are you going to pay an engineer roughly $130k per year? (Remember, the fully-loaded cost of an employee is much higher than their salary.) Loans must be so quite tempting.
And sure, LLCs are designed to mitigate personal risk. But that implies you can find someone willing to risk loaning to you.
I'm not saying that VC is great, just that it fills a need.
Sure, it's possible. But having met a few founders, their lifestyle from taking VC money seems far preferable to the bootstrap approach. It's true that you have to grow, but if you have growth, then nothing else matters. And if you don't, then you're one of the most employable people in the entire world.
A shocking number of people, somehow, end up in insane amounts of debt by trying to start their own companies. And you're sort of forced to. An example: one of our family members had a lucrative pole barn business. (Apparently in the midwest, lots of people wanted pole barns built, or something.) But in order to pay his employees to go construct the pole barns, he needed loans, leveraged against the future income from the construction project.
Then 2008 hit. Poof! Contracts all went poof. And he was left holding the bag.
So, if you need employees, and you're bootstrapped, how exactly are you going to pay an engineer roughly $130k per year? (Remember, the fully-loaded cost of an employee is much higher than their salary.) Loans must be so quite tempting.
And sure, LLCs are designed to mitigate personal risk. But that implies you can find someone willing to risk loaning to you.
I'm not saying that VC is great, just that it fills a need.
Yeah but all the successful VC funded startup stories are a form of survivorship bias too. The whole idea of venture capital is to fund many companies that will fail with the hope of finding the one unicorn that will make up for all the losses. A lottery just the same.
It's true that if you're taking out loans to fund your bootstrapped company you could be left holding the bag. But it's also true that you can build an IT startup without taking a lot of big loans for capital expenditures. You only grow when you're making money, so it's a slower path, but for some businesses it may make more sense.
It's true that if you're taking out loans to fund your bootstrapped company you could be left holding the bag. But it's also true that you can build an IT startup without taking a lot of big loans for capital expenditures. You only grow when you're making money, so it's a slower path, but for some businesses it may make more sense.
Or, don't start a business with a loan. If you're gonna bootstrap (the "right" way) then step zero is have 12mo runway of your own capital and step one is start a business
$130k to pay a single employee for one year. I don't know about you, but it's extremely difficult for most people to save up that kind of runway.
> $130k to pay a single employee for one year. I don't know about you, but it's extremely difficult for most people to save up that kind of runway.
I think the idea is that step one isn't hiring a subordinate employee; it's having secure enough finances that you (or you and your co-founders) can work for yourself for a time.
Step two is actually working on the business, and step three is growing is revenues to the point where it can sustain you, four is growing them further to the point where they can support an employee, and five is actually hiring that employee and paying them $130k a year.
I think the idea is that step one isn't hiring a subordinate employee; it's having secure enough finances that you (or you and your co-founders) can work for yourself for a time.
Step two is actually working on the business, and step three is growing is revenues to the point where it can sustain you, four is growing them further to the point where they can support an employee, and five is actually hiring that employee and paying them $130k a year.
Co-founders? Why are they co-founding? Profit sharing?
That's an excellent way to devolve into squabbling about who gets what. VC also protects against that: the money is for the company, and it's illegal to siphon it out of the company.
Unfortunately in practice your suggestion tends to become "You're working for yourself, alone." And sure, I love the idea of a one-person company. Lots of talented devs can sell, if they try. But lots of talented devs are also trying to get rich on the iOS app store; few do.
That's an excellent way to devolve into squabbling about who gets what. VC also protects against that: the money is for the company, and it's illegal to siphon it out of the company.
Unfortunately in practice your suggestion tends to become "You're working for yourself, alone." And sure, I love the idea of a one-person company. Lots of talented devs can sell, if they try. But lots of talented devs are also trying to get rich on the iOS app store; few do.
> Co-founders? Why are they co-founding? Profit sharing?
Because they had an idea with you and want to work together to make it happen? Or all kinds of other things like that?
And yeah, if you're going to do that, you're going to have to be careful make sure you're not the kind of people who will need adult supervision to avoid squabbling.
VC might have its uses, or provide some service, but that shouldn't be misunderstood to mean that it's essential or alternatives aren't worth considering.
The other thing to note is that one of the things VCs do is sell the VC paradigm, so they're going to try their hardest to make it seem like it's essential or at least the best product out there.
Because they had an idea with you and want to work together to make it happen? Or all kinds of other things like that?
And yeah, if you're going to do that, you're going to have to be careful make sure you're not the kind of people who will need adult supervision to avoid squabbling.
VC might have its uses, or provide some service, but that shouldn't be misunderstood to mean that it's essential or alternatives aren't worth considering.
The other thing to note is that one of the things VCs do is sell the VC paradigm, so they're going to try their hardest to make it seem like it's essential or at least the best product out there.
Hmm. You're dodging the question: Why would a cofounder want to start a company with you? No handwaving.
People cofound to get rich. Can your company offer that to your cofounder?
If you focus on that question, the rest falls into place. Unfortunately a lot of people don't want to focus on that question, because it's at the heart of why bootstrapping rarely works.
"Not needing adult supervision" indicates that you probably haven't done what you're saying. It's not a matter of supervision. It's managing expectations. You are legally required to lay out what you offer, in clear terms, and what you expect in return. That's the basis of a business arrangement.
So, we're going into business together. How will your company make me rich? Why should I work as hard as I possibly can to make the company succeed?
People cofound to get rich. Can your company offer that to your cofounder?
If you focus on that question, the rest falls into place. Unfortunately a lot of people don't want to focus on that question, because it's at the heart of why bootstrapping rarely works.
"Not needing adult supervision" indicates that you probably haven't done what you're saying. It's not a matter of supervision. It's managing expectations. You are legally required to lay out what you offer, in clear terms, and what you expect in return. That's the basis of a business arrangement.
So, we're going into business together. How will your company make me rich? Why should I work as hard as I possibly can to make the company succeed?
> Hmm. You're dodging the question: Why would a cofounder want to start a company with you? No handwaving.
> People cofound to get rich. Can your company offer that to your cofounder?
I don't know. Why did Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak start Apple together?
I feel like you're laboring under a very limited model of how and why companies are founded and how people behave.
> People cofound to get rich. Can your company offer that to your cofounder?
I don't know. Why did Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak start Apple together?
I feel like you're laboring under a very limited model of how and why companies are founded and how people behave.
The model happens to be aligned with how and why people actually start companies. It's not my model.
You have to come up with a persuasive answer to "Why should I work as hard as I can on this company, rather than go work for Google?" That question is in fact so hard that it (possibly) almost killed YC in the crib, back in '08. No one wants to work for a startup when they can get paid far more and live an easier life.
What you're proposing, if I understand you correctly, is that someone works extremely hard, for no concrete gain other than perhaps intellectual curiosity. Sure, you can argue that the usual benefits apply: you're free to do as you please, and to self-manage. But that's not a very convincing argument in the face of $RIDICULOUS_SALARY at a bigco.
It's cliche to say "Don't hate the player, hate the game," but I believe it applies here. Neither of us chose to live in a capitalistic society. We were born into one. Why not make the optimal decisions, all else being equal?
You have to come up with a persuasive answer to "Why should I work as hard as I can on this company, rather than go work for Google?" That question is in fact so hard that it (possibly) almost killed YC in the crib, back in '08. No one wants to work for a startup when they can get paid far more and live an easier life.
What you're proposing, if I understand you correctly, is that someone works extremely hard, for no concrete gain other than perhaps intellectual curiosity. Sure, you can argue that the usual benefits apply: you're free to do as you please, and to self-manage. But that's not a very convincing argument in the face of $RIDICULOUS_SALARY at a bigco.
It's cliche to say "Don't hate the player, hate the game," but I believe it applies here. Neither of us chose to live in a capitalistic society. We were born into one. Why not make the optimal decisions, all else being equal?
I am a cofounder of a non-VC backed startup. We work together because (1) we're friends (2) like working together (3) have complimentary skillsets. We split the equity 50/50 and receive the same salary. We've been doing it several years and we've never had even a single conversation on the topic, we just assumed from the beginning it was an even split and that's how we went about it.
They co-found to make money. It's just not as fast paced as the VC option but it's the same thing as any business. The founder thinks that with more than 1 person, each person would make more money than if only the founder worked.
Saving up money to start a business is just one of the many (many!) difficulties you will face when starting/running your own business.
What you’re saying is like “I have never won the lottery, so therefore it must be impossible...”
> But in order to pay his employees to go construct the pole barns, he needed loans, leveraged against the future income from the construction project.
Rather than collateralized loans, a better financial instrument might have been factoring (selling the receivable outright, typically for 90-95¢ on the dollar), plus having a reasonable penalty clause in the contract.
This isn't a criticism. Hardly anyone outside of the fashion industry (that has long waits, like net-90, for payment after eventual delivery) or heavy industry (that has expensive equipment that can be amortized long-term) seems to know about factoring.
Rather than collateralized loans, a better financial instrument might have been factoring (selling the receivable outright, typically for 90-95¢ on the dollar), plus having a reasonable penalty clause in the contract.
This isn't a criticism. Hardly anyone outside of the fashion industry (that has long waits, like net-90, for payment after eventual delivery) or heavy industry (that has expensive equipment that can be amortized long-term) seems to know about factoring.
No one will loan to an LLC without a personal guarantee from the founder. LLCs protect against legal liability, not against financial liability for debt.
> That's a bit like saying "This person won the lottery, so therefore..."
Caveat: I love Jetbrains, and am a happy subscriber.
However, as the parent commenter says, it's important to realise that Jetbrains has been lucky as well. Java dev tools suffered from poor performance and poor UX for the longest time.
Eclipse, despite its early promise (SWT and native widgets) has much 'rougher' UX compared to IDEA. But I remain surprised how much better even simply typing feels on IDEA, and how good the refactoring tools are. (The latest Eclipse has improved a lot in the refactoring dept, though.)
Java's combination of openness and poor dev tools definitely helped Jetbrains a lot and gave them a cachet in the marketplace that helped them as they expanded into other languages. That said, I've also used their Microsoft VS addins and those were very good too, but they likely would have made much less money if they were a Microsoft-only shop.
Caveat: I love Jetbrains, and am a happy subscriber.
However, as the parent commenter says, it's important to realise that Jetbrains has been lucky as well. Java dev tools suffered from poor performance and poor UX for the longest time.
Eclipse, despite its early promise (SWT and native widgets) has much 'rougher' UX compared to IDEA. But I remain surprised how much better even simply typing feels on IDEA, and how good the refactoring tools are. (The latest Eclipse has improved a lot in the refactoring dept, though.)
Java's combination of openness and poor dev tools definitely helped Jetbrains a lot and gave them a cachet in the marketplace that helped them as they expanded into other languages. That said, I've also used their Microsoft VS addins and those were very good too, but they likely would have made much less money if they were a Microsoft-only shop.
Have you entertained the idea that both could suck?
This is probably it. There are some companies that just can't be bootstrapped, the up-front cost is too high. There are some that would suffer from the high-growth demands of VC.
If you've got a plan that starts with high-fixed costs that over time becomes low-fixed cost at scale, then VC is probably the best way to go.
If you've identified low-hanging fruit to solve problems for people, bootstrapping makes the most sense.
Any arguments for or against seem to imply either way is a one-sized fits all solution. It's not.
Any arguments for or against seem to imply either way is a one-sized fits all solution. It's not.
PG is a VC. He isn't a god of entrepreneurship.
Why is it that this argument only seems to apply to software and not to all of the other kinds of businesses out there?
Why is it that this argument only seems to apply to software and not to all of the other kinds of businesses out there?
Also as humans we are myopic and can only understand everything as a relation to us. His tweet (https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1129897694984646657) about how you don't need to be rich to run a startup invariably shows that as humans we are poor at judging almost anything out of our current circle of understanding.
The major major thing that makes a startup successful in almost all cases is money. With enough wind even chickens can fly.
There are millions of brilliant people all over the world whose ideas we never see because they never had their opportunity or funding to bring their ideas to life.
The major major thing that makes a startup successful in almost all cases is money. With enough wind even chickens can fly.
There are millions of brilliant people all over the world whose ideas we never see because they never had their opportunity or funding to bring their ideas to life.
> With enough wind even chickens can fly.
Off topic: I'm not familiar with this turn of phrase, but as anyone who has ever chased after free range chickens as a child knows - chickens fly fine with no wind at all. The can only fly a short distance though.
Off topic: I'm not familiar with this turn of phrase, but as anyone who has ever chased after free range chickens as a child knows - chickens fly fine with no wind at all. The can only fly a short distance though.
> With enough wind even chickens can fly.
This metaphor's impact is as strong as Lei Jun's famous saying, who is the CEO and founder of Xiaomi:
With enough wind even PIG can fly.
This metaphor's impact is as strong as Lei Jun's famous saying, who is the CEO and founder of Xiaomi:
With enough wind even PIG can fly.
> Why is it that this argument only seems to apply to software?
Maybe because software has a unique property: a practically zero marginal ("reproduction") cost. Hence software, and services that depend only on software are suitable for the rocket-fuel injection strategy VCs so heavily rely on.
Make no mistake - good software is damn expensive to create, but once it's ready for delivery, creating and selling additional copies (or serving more clients) costs practically nothing.
Maybe because software has a unique property: a practically zero marginal ("reproduction") cost. Hence software, and services that depend only on software are suitable for the rocket-fuel injection strategy VCs so heavily rely on.
Make no mistake - good software is damn expensive to create, but once it's ready for delivery, creating and selling additional copies (or serving more clients) costs practically nothing.
the distribution costs nothing but six months old software is still six months old software. Pushing half finished products on the entire world is another 'feature' hailed by people like PG. I thought we had all learned how great "move fast and break things" and "when it works you're shipping too late" is for us at this point.
There was a good article on HN recently about 500 year old Japanese family owned businesses. Most hypergrowth software probably doesn't live five. Isn't it interesting that most of the software that actually has lived decades looks more like it's made by people like that rather than VC fuelled companies?
There was a good article on HN recently about 500 year old Japanese family owned businesses. Most hypergrowth software probably doesn't live five. Isn't it interesting that most of the software that actually has lived decades looks more like it's made by people like that rather than VC fuelled companies?
200 years ago, railway was the big thing. Everyone was interested in building railways, steam engines, etc. Companies sprung up, many people got rich. Nowadays, the railways are already built and transport many goods. Building new railways is extremely expensive now because we have lost the know how, workforce, have higher labour standards, bureaucracy etc. Nowadays we are mainly considering how to operate railway tracks instead of building new ones.
Nowadays, software is the new economic frontier and enjoys explosive growth. The land that software embarks into is still virgin, and it's comparatively easy to build a new software company. It's a growth market.
In such an environment, bootstrapped companies are generally at a disadvantage to VC started companies, as bootstrapped ones can focus on capturing the market before becoming profitable, while bootstrapped ones have to keep both in mind. So people turn to VCs.
This situation of explosive growth is kinda unique to software, and VCs aren't the only solution to the problem, but the dot com bubble has shown what happens when companies go public more early on in the process.
Nowadays, software is the new economic frontier and enjoys explosive growth. The land that software embarks into is still virgin, and it's comparatively easy to build a new software company. It's a growth market.
In such an environment, bootstrapped companies are generally at a disadvantage to VC started companies, as bootstrapped ones can focus on capturing the market before becoming profitable, while bootstrapped ones have to keep both in mind. So people turn to VCs.
This situation of explosive growth is kinda unique to software, and VCs aren't the only solution to the problem, but the dot com bubble has shown what happens when companies go public more early on in the process.
I don't see the rebuttal.
The article seems to be only about what the best way of selling your company is (whether or not you technically sell).
There isn't even anything in it about just running your own company indefinitely.
And the article does not mention "user" or "good software" once, staying only within an economical framework ("how to get rich") - which is literally the point of GP.
The article seems to be only about what the best way of selling your company is (whether or not you technically sell).
There isn't even anything in it about just running your own company indefinitely.
And the article does not mention "user" or "good software" once, staying only within an economical framework ("how to get rich") - which is literally the point of GP.
> Because VC funded startups are forced to grow fast or die a lot of good, profitable, user focused ideas are trashed because they won't lead to rapid enough expansion.
I have noticed that, to some people, "VC startup" is almost considered redundant. That is, if your company is not seeking outside investors, not seeking rapid growth, not seeking an "exit", then it isn't a real "startup". So, in addition to what you mention about user focus (or lack thereof), I feel that this hurts ambitious entrepreneurs by making them think the VC/outside investment/grow-or-die treadmill is the only way to get big and escape the "lifestyle business" stigma. Many of them likely could succeed, albeit more slowly, without the treadmill.
I have noticed that, to some people, "VC startup" is almost considered redundant. That is, if your company is not seeking outside investors, not seeking rapid growth, not seeking an "exit", then it isn't a real "startup". So, in addition to what you mention about user focus (or lack thereof), I feel that this hurts ambitious entrepreneurs by making them think the VC/outside investment/grow-or-die treadmill is the only way to get big and escape the "lifestyle business" stigma. Many of them likely could succeed, albeit more slowly, without the treadmill.
Completely agree and I experienced much of that on my own journey. Customers would ask whether I'm interested in taking VC or if I wanted to keep it as a "lifestyle business" - not realizing that we were doing more than fine without requiring outside funding. After a while though it nags at you and makes you wonder whether you should take VC because doing so makes building a business formulaic. Bootstrapping a company can feel like you're in uncharted waters in comparison because a lot of articles assume you've taken or want to take VC. And they assume that you want to exit. I wish there were more publicly shared success stories of bootstrapped companies that didn't take funding because there are more of them out there than people realize. And taking things slower can help you validate use cases, flesh out the product and build the type of company that you want. I'm very happy that we never took VC.
Is this lifestyle business stigma a real thing? Or just something the VC lobby put out there? Personally I think anyone leading a business should deserve respect, as running one is hard.
Yes it's the business-y equivalent of calling one small-minded.
It is, at least in the Valley amongst the get-rich-fast crowd, which is not a small portion of the people working here.
There are a lot of things I don't like about the tech culture in the bay area, and this everything-but-unicorns-is-trash attitude is close to the top of the list.
There are a lot of things I don't like about the tech culture in the bay area, and this everything-but-unicorns-is-trash attitude is close to the top of the list.
It's certainly part of the culture but when you make 6-figures a month as a bootstrapped founder, those arrogant a-holes quickly quiet themselves. Most of the fellow bootstrapped founders I've met are pretty decent people and there are a lot of them. I found the old money east coast elite to be much more annoying and far less interesting.
> if your company is … not seeking rapid growth, … then it isn't a real "startup"
Isn't that the definition of a "startup"? If you're not seeking/expecting rapid growth, isn't it just a "small business". There's nothing wrong with that, not everything has to be a "startup".
(Wiktionary tells me "A new company or organization or business venture designed for rapid growth", but Merriam-Webster Collegiate 11th ed tells me "a fledgling business enterprise". Of course, the Merriam-Webster only recognizes "start-up" not "startup", so how much could they know?)
Isn't that the definition of a "startup"? If you're not seeking/expecting rapid growth, isn't it just a "small business". There's nothing wrong with that, not everything has to be a "startup".
(Wiktionary tells me "A new company or organization or business venture designed for rapid growth", but Merriam-Webster Collegiate 11th ed tells me "a fledgling business enterprise". Of course, the Merriam-Webster only recognizes "start-up" not "startup", so how much could they know?)
I would distinguish between growth-at-all-costs and a scalable business. Both are startups, but VCs only invest in the former. Jetbrains is a good example of the latter.
Just because it's the official definition of a start-up doesn't mean it's a good definition.
There's been a steady stream of bootstrapped companies providing legally and morally uncontroversial, high quality products to satisfied customers, and growing steadily until they become much bigger than "small businesses".
IMO there's something deranged about the need to operate on the basis of explosive growth from day zero. Not only does it create pointless stress and drama, but it isn't even a particularly reliable way to grow a business - never mind an uncontroversial one with satisfied customers.
There's been a steady stream of bootstrapped companies providing legally and morally uncontroversial, high quality products to satisfied customers, and growing steadily until they become much bigger than "small businesses".
IMO there's something deranged about the need to operate on the basis of explosive growth from day zero. Not only does it create pointless stress and drama, but it isn't even a particularly reliable way to grow a business - never mind an uncontroversial one with satisfied customers.
I think there are cases that are clearly "a new small business" vs "a startup". In between there is some fuzziness.
Obviously you don't need to have or be pursuing VC money to be called a startup, but there is probably truth in the idea that startups are inherently unstable. You may not be growing exponentially, but you are spending down money in pursuit or definition of a stable business model that doesn't currently quite work yet, or a different way to exit that unstable phase.
Obviously you don't need to have or be pursuing VC money to be called a startup, but there is probably truth in the idea that startups are inherently unstable. You may not be growing exponentially, but you are spending down money in pursuit or definition of a stable business model that doesn't currently quite work yet, or a different way to exit that unstable phase.
I have seen this firsthand. I was a finance major fifteen years ago and for the last ten years I have run a completely bootstrapped agency.
If you have to live off your own revenues, it means you don't do any premature scaling... You have to focus on the needs of your customers to reach the next level. VC backed companies have to reach the VC exit goals which means they are forced to scale immediately even if things are broken.
Your business idea could work really well if you were given a few extra months or years to work on it, but with the VC fuse burning you can't wait.
VC's generally don't care about your passion, they care about maximizing returns over the shortest time period possible. If you don't do it their way, you will be forced to leave. I have been a member of a tech Vistage group and have seen over half of the VC backed CEO's forced out by their investors. It's really sad.
If you have to live off your own revenues, it means you don't do any premature scaling... You have to focus on the needs of your customers to reach the next level. VC backed companies have to reach the VC exit goals which means they are forced to scale immediately even if things are broken.
Your business idea could work really well if you were given a few extra months or years to work on it, but with the VC fuse burning you can't wait.
VC's generally don't care about your passion, they care about maximizing returns over the shortest time period possible. If you don't do it their way, you will be forced to leave. I have been a member of a tech Vistage group and have seen over half of the VC backed CEO's forced out by their investors. It's really sad.
Care to tell us more about your experience with Vistage?
Very expensive. It's only worth it if you have over 50k a month in profit. At that level it is good for a year or two of training and then it gets repetitive.
From first-hand experience, however, bootstrapped companies often don't have a ton of cash in the bank. They can quickly fail if there's an adverse event (COVID, for example).
You can also get crushed by well-funded competitors who can innovate faster than you due to larger team sizes, salaries, etc.
You can also get crushed by well-funded competitors who can innovate faster than you due to larger team sizes, salaries, etc.
It depends on the type of company. Its hard to out-innovate some companies just by throwing more money.
The best small companies operate in their direct competitor's blindspot.
Stupid example: Tesla. Toyota reverse engineered their car. Can't make a competing product. Not because it is impossible, but because it is not how the entire supply chain / development is set up. It'd take Toyota a major restructuring of the company to be able to compete.
That's the idea. It doesn't matter how much cash the other side throws at you, you're working where they can't go. Time and time again I see our company out-maneuvering our competitors with less money. Not because we got some super geniuses on the team (okay we got some smart people), but because we started from the ground up working in a spot where our competitor could not go. And so we have years of experience more than our competitor in the thing that our competitor needs to get better at.
Stupid example: Tesla. Toyota reverse engineered their car. Can't make a competing product. Not because it is impossible, but because it is not how the entire supply chain / development is set up. It'd take Toyota a major restructuring of the company to be able to compete.
That's the idea. It doesn't matter how much cash the other side throws at you, you're working where they can't go. Time and time again I see our company out-maneuvering our competitors with less money. Not because we got some super geniuses on the team (okay we got some smart people), but because we started from the ground up working in a spot where our competitor could not go. And so we have years of experience more than our competitor in the thing that our competitor needs to get better at.
In real electric car markets, other brands than Tesla run the show. In Norway, one of the biggest western electric car markets, Tesla is way at the bottom of sales. Only 95 Teslas were sold in November, while single models of other manufacturers had multitudes of that number in sales.
https://insideevs.com/news/452441/norway-plugin-car-sales-oc...
I think Tesla's main contribution lies in the past, by being an early pioneer of EVs and pushing them in an environment where nobody considered EVs viable. This definitely deserves an entry in the history books. But competitors have waken up.
https://insideevs.com/news/452441/norway-plugin-car-sales-oc...
I think Tesla's main contribution lies in the past, by being an early pioneer of EVs and pushing them in an environment where nobody considered EVs viable. This definitely deserves an entry in the history books. But competitors have waken up.
One can perhaps think of this as Teslas blind spot. People living with California wages don’t necessarily see the difference in prices mattering that much.
This is not a blind spot, it's explicitly part of their company's long-term strategy; Musk's plan from the beginning was to start with a luxury-tier offering (Roadster), and gradually work their way down the price-points as they achieved greater economies of scale.
Musk wrote about this way back in the day (2006):
https://www.tesla.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-j...
> Almost any new technology initially has high unit cost before it can be optimized and this is no less true for electric cars. The strategy of Tesla is to enter at the high end of the market, where customers are prepared to pay a premium, and then drive down market as fast as possible to higher unit volume and lower prices with each successive model.
You might criticize their execution for failing to reach the mass-market sedan price-point fast enough (though I think that they have done an impressive job of starting a car company from scratch), but I don't think the "blind spot" claim really holds water.
Musk wrote about this way back in the day (2006):
https://www.tesla.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-j...
> Almost any new technology initially has high unit cost before it can be optimized and this is no less true for electric cars. The strategy of Tesla is to enter at the high end of the market, where customers are prepared to pay a premium, and then drive down market as fast as possible to higher unit volume and lower prices with each successive model.
You might criticize their execution for failing to reach the mass-market sedan price-point fast enough (though I think that they have done an impressive job of starting a car company from scratch), but I don't think the "blind spot" claim really holds water.
Good point. So they simply were not able to ramp up faster than it took for the existing manufacturers to start catching up and leveraging their scale better.
They seem to be ramping faster than anyone else.
https://electrek.co/2020/10/30/tesla-tsla-market-share-globa...
However they are not selling more EVs than everyone else in every market, which isn't a bad thing IMO. A smaller piece of a bigger pie is what they seem to be shooting for.
https://electrek.co/2020/10/30/tesla-tsla-market-share-globa...
However they are not selling more EVs than everyone else in every market, which isn't a bad thing IMO. A smaller piece of a bigger pie is what they seem to be shooting for.
Yep, it's a classic "new market entrant is racing to become the incumbent before the incumbent(s) can copy their innovations" situation.
It's a good illustration of why software is such a different paradigm than traditional physical economies; VCs can pour funding into a software company and since the marginal costs are close to zero, the innovator can blitz-scale and take over the market before the incumbent has time to react. However when "scaling" means building global logistics infrastructure, including factories for batteries and factories for cars, it's a lot harder to get the drop on the incumbents.
I think the GP's comment is spot on though, if Tesla fails to win this race, they will still have been the driving force in bringing EV adoption forward by 5-10 years (perhaps more), which is an incredible achievement.
It's a good illustration of why software is such a different paradigm than traditional physical economies; VCs can pour funding into a software company and since the marginal costs are close to zero, the innovator can blitz-scale and take over the market before the incumbent has time to react. However when "scaling" means building global logistics infrastructure, including factories for batteries and factories for cars, it's a lot harder to get the drop on the incumbents.
I think the GP's comment is spot on though, if Tesla fails to win this race, they will still have been the driving force in bringing EV adoption forward by 5-10 years (perhaps more), which is an incredible achievement.
Norways GDP per capita is higher than Californias.
Disposable income seems like the more relevant number here, and in that California is higher ~(48k vs 38k USD, although numbers are a bit stale).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...
It's not more relevant, because disposable income ignores things Norwegians get 'free' (because it is already deducted).
Part of that 'deduction' pays for heavy tax-breaks and subsidies for electric cars in Norway.
But then GDP is also an abhorrent metric to use for basically anything.
If you use either GDP or 'disposable income' as a proxy metric to compare anything between countries, you should seriously re-evaluate what you're doing.
Part of that 'deduction' pays for heavy tax-breaks and subsidies for electric cars in Norway.
But then GDP is also an abhorrent metric to use for basically anything.
If you use either GDP or 'disposable income' as a proxy metric to compare anything between countries, you should seriously re-evaluate what you're doing.
I don't have to re-evaluate anything. I just wanted to tell OP that Norway is a very rich country and not in any way poorer than California.
Teslas cost more (after those tax-breaks and subsidies) in Norway than in California. You're lacing the conversation with a lot of value judgements, but those aren't particularly relevant to the question of whether the people of California or Norway are more able to buy Teslas.
Also Musk's response during this pandemic has changed the tone around Tesla I think. Plus he has moved out of the bay area. I wonder how it will impact sales in the long run given California is their main market.
From the article you cite:
> Surprisingly, disappointing results are seen from the two best-selling BEVs in Europe - Renault ZOE (119) and Tesla Model 3 (74).
I found this article [1] with sales figures for Europe. For H1 2020, it was 37k Renault Zoe, 32k Tesla Model 3, 18k VW e-Golf, then 4 in the 11-13k range, and 3 in the 7-8k range.
[1] https://europe.autonews.com/sales-segment/europes-no-1-selli...
> Surprisingly, disappointing results are seen from the two best-selling BEVs in Europe - Renault ZOE (119) and Tesla Model 3 (74).
I found this article [1] with sales figures for Europe. For H1 2020, it was 37k Renault Zoe, 32k Tesla Model 3, 18k VW e-Golf, then 4 in the 11-13k range, and 3 in the 7-8k range.
[1] https://europe.autonews.com/sales-segment/europes-no-1-selli...
If you look at the greater european statistics it's not a real electric car market any more, as most vehicles sold have ICE components (either hybrid or solely ICE). Norway is special because of their large market share of BEV cars. They make up 56% of new car sales in Norway while only 7.2% in all of the EU.
So all the EU stat is saying is that Teslas are sold well in the niche of the market that's interested in buying EVs over more established brands. The Norway stat is more representative of what happens when 56% of all newly sold EU cars are purely electric.
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/03/norway-in-november-ev-m...
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/09/20200904-acea.html
So all the EU stat is saying is that Teslas are sold well in the niche of the market that's interested in buying EVs over more established brands. The Norway stat is more representative of what happens when 56% of all newly sold EU cars are purely electric.
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/03/norway-in-november-ev-m...
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/09/20200904-acea.html
Maybe, but we went on a cruise to Norway last summer and every single time we were on the streets we saw at least a few Teslas. It was a game to see who could spot the most Teslas first.
Tesla's monthly sales in any specific (non-US) market are completely meaningless, because total demand greatly exceeds supply, and supply is not evenly distributed. That is, there are months where individual European markets get thousands of Model 3's, and there are months where those same markets get a handful, if any. This means that both the "OMG Tesla sales grew 15005% in market X!" and "LOL Tesla only sold 3 cars in market X!" are completely meaningless non-news from which you cannot derive any information.
Just to drive the point home, new registrations of Tesla cars in Norway by month in the past 8 months: April: 44 May: 8 June: 568 July: 348 August: 33 September: 1439 October: 95 November: 326
No, Teslas did not suddenly become hugely more popular during September and then immediately lose a lot of their popularity in the month after. It's just that in September, a lot more cars were allocated to Norway, and so a lot of the people on the waiting list finally got theirs. During the other months, those cars went to other European countries.
Tesla is still ridiculously supply-limited compared to the amount of cars they could sell, if they only had the cars. Whether they succeed or not depends mostly on how fast they can scale their production.
Just to drive the point home, new registrations of Tesla cars in Norway by month in the past 8 months: April: 44 May: 8 June: 568 July: 348 August: 33 September: 1439 October: 95 November: 326
No, Teslas did not suddenly become hugely more popular during September and then immediately lose a lot of their popularity in the month after. It's just that in September, a lot more cars were allocated to Norway, and so a lot of the people on the waiting list finally got theirs. During the other months, those cars went to other European countries.
Tesla is still ridiculously supply-limited compared to the amount of cars they could sell, if they only had the cars. Whether they succeed or not depends mostly on how fast they can scale their production.
Good point about the data being noisy, wasn't aware of that. If we take an entire year the core of my statement still holds, although more weakly. Tesla is a competitor, but not market leader. Other cars sell way better. Check the image at the bottom of this article: https://insideevs.com/news/452441/norway-plugin-car-sales-oc...
3.2k Tesla model 3's sold in 2020, but it's only at #6, with #1 to #5 each selling more than that, like e.g. ID.3 with 4.4k vehicles.
3.2k Tesla model 3's sold in 2020, but it's only at #6, with #1 to #5 each selling more than that, like e.g. ID.3 with 4.4k vehicles.
Year to year changes seem to be significant. By this time last year, Tesla had sold ~14k Model 3s.
That's the magic of first-mover advantage.
Tesla had like 3-5 years head start on any competitor. Just like the iPhone had a few years head start with the iPod. They got into people's mind, built a brand, and by the time the iPhone came out, and by the time the iPhone became a beast everyone else was playing catch up.
Remember how blackberry was so desperate to make an app store, and it was an absolute heap of shit?
Well Apple basically created an ecosystem where engineers were running apple hardware with a decent development environment. By the time anyone else could compete a few years passed, apple was a clear market winner, and all competitors were just trying to not get decimated. Took android a while before it was a real good apple competitor, and still playing catch up in many ways.
Tesla is in the same boat. Eventually there will be better EVs for less money for specific needs. But Tesla will always be synonymous with EVs. First thing you think about. The thing you judge everything against. Not to fanboy Tesla. That company has many many problems.
Tesla had like 3-5 years head start on any competitor. Just like the iPhone had a few years head start with the iPod. They got into people's mind, built a brand, and by the time the iPhone came out, and by the time the iPhone became a beast everyone else was playing catch up.
Remember how blackberry was so desperate to make an app store, and it was an absolute heap of shit?
Well Apple basically created an ecosystem where engineers were running apple hardware with a decent development environment. By the time anyone else could compete a few years passed, apple was a clear market winner, and all competitors were just trying to not get decimated. Took android a while before it was a real good apple competitor, and still playing catch up in many ways.
Tesla is in the same boat. Eventually there will be better EVs for less money for specific needs. But Tesla will always be synonymous with EVs. First thing you think about. The thing you judge everything against. Not to fanboy Tesla. That company has many many problems.
> You can also get crushed by well-funded competitors who can innovate faster than you due to larger team sizes, salaries, etc.
Which is why VCs are evil and need to be crushed. Ironic, I know, posting this here
Which is why VCs are evil and need to be crushed. Ironic, I know, posting this here
VCs are a slightly less evil version of PE IMO. Don't get me wrong, they're still evil. Anyone who makes money from money should really question their place in the world.
That's literally the biblical interpretation on this.
Usury laws in religion have different forms. Limiting doesn't mean no finance, it just prevents some of the crazy abuse we see now.
My personal and vicarious experiences with VC's have been that they are very much a mixed bag, and choosing to work with them in general is a necessary evil depending on the type of company you want to build. For my future startup attempts, if I can help it I will not work with VC's.
And if I have to work with VC's, then I will have a strong preference for working with VC partners who are former operators. The investor having substantial experience in the trenches (such as former founders) makes a massive difference in the productivity of the founder/investor working relationship.
And if I have to work with VC's, then I will have a strong preference for working with VC partners who are former operators. The investor having substantial experience in the trenches (such as former founders) makes a massive difference in the productivity of the founder/investor working relationship.
Profitability isn't necessarily important to the strategy of a VC company. Everything is about the exit, and most exits are either acquisitions or IPOs. Neither type of exit mandates profitability, and both care capable of offloading to a greater fool.
A strong trend I've personally noticed with VC backed companies and something I'm highly wary of for our own company is the way it inevitably turns companies evil. I would highlight Google and Cloudflare as two examples, but the general trend seems to be that VC pressure inevitably forces you to hire 'better' people who invariably steer the company to being more focused on profit and power rather than on some intrinsic mission.
Actual mission focused companies like Mozilla only seem to succeed if they stay private and stay away from VC.
A strong trend I've personally noticed with VC backed companies and something I'm highly wary of for our own company is the way it inevitably turns companies evil. I would highlight Google and Cloudflare as two examples, but the general trend seems to be that VC pressure inevitably forces you to hire 'better' people who invariably steer the company to being more focused on profit and power rather than on some intrinsic mission.
Actual mission focused companies like Mozilla only seem to succeed if they stay private and stay away from VC.
Google went public early and with a share structure that insulated the founders from any pressure from the stock market.
Venture capital has nothing to do with what’s happened since.
Venture capital has nothing to do with what’s happened since.
Google had limited VC investment - a 25m round before IPO. Arguably they turned evil much later so to me the link to “VC corruption” is more specious.
Re cloudflare, can you please help me understand what they’ve been doing that you see as evil?
Given how Mozilla constantly struggles to stay afloat (and effectively depends on the generosity of Google as the single revenue source), I don’t know that’s an example to point to, especially since they’ve had their own share of “user-hostile” steps (albeit fewer since it’s a smaller company).
Re cloudflare, can you please help me understand what they’ve been doing that you see as evil?
Given how Mozilla constantly struggles to stay afloat (and effectively depends on the generosity of Google as the single revenue source), I don’t know that’s an example to point to, especially since they’ve had their own share of “user-hostile” steps (albeit fewer since it’s a smaller company).
I would argue that being a public company has the same pressure as being VC funded only much stronger.
Cloudflare is increasingly pushing their position as the world's biggest man-in-the-middle, and things like their new secure DNS are making the situation worse.
They've started taking opinionated stances and making deplatforming decisions instead of being neutral infrastructure and I think this is going to get a lot worse.
Cloudflare is increasingly pushing their position as the world's biggest man-in-the-middle, and things like their new secure DNS are making the situation worse.
They've started taking opinionated stances and making deplatforming decisions instead of being neutral infrastructure and I think this is going to get a lot worse.
I'm curious, what are the illegal (and the highly unethical) ones doing? Dont need to name the companies, but what sort of activities are you seeing?
I can really relate to the parent comment. I have worked at two VC-funded startups, one which was an "uber of x" and the other is a IoT consumer electronics startup.
The former was unethical in the way it treated the workers (I mean independent contractors). The higher ups treated the app/company as a beautiful product that would save the world (or the yuppies at least), but rarely acknowledged the actual workers who made the cogs spin, and was more focused on Growth and branding than actually treating people well.
Something I always think about is the dark pattern they had in the app which would only ask you to rate/review on Yelp/app stores if you had given a 5 star rating to the job. They also hacked Yelp to show the Yelp option to people they determined were most likely to leave a good Yelp review. If you have a good product/service that you believe in, you shouldn't need to do this type of thing. Oh, and of course the company was not following the labor/insurance laws in the states where it worked and had several cease and desist orders they ignored.
The hardware startup had like 20% RMA rates because of components would fail over and over. They used VC money to subsidize the returns/repairs instead of fixing the problem. They would prefer to ship more crappy products instead of fewer good products. Not so much illegal (hard to be when selling electronics, yay regulations), but unethical in that they would ship so much garbage despite being "customer obsessed." They operated more like a software company than a hardware company. It's easy to remotely fix software, but hardware is a very different beast and that was something they didn't want to admit.
Compared to my current company, a 30 person electronics firm that has already been acquired and never did too much VC nonsense. We are profitable and sell a good product (1% RMA) that customers enjoy. Instead of "moving fast and breaking things" (a slogan I feel the first two companies embody), we work hard to get things just right before shipping the product so that we never get any returned merchandise but get lots of return customers.
The former was unethical in the way it treated the workers (I mean independent contractors). The higher ups treated the app/company as a beautiful product that would save the world (or the yuppies at least), but rarely acknowledged the actual workers who made the cogs spin, and was more focused on Growth and branding than actually treating people well.
Something I always think about is the dark pattern they had in the app which would only ask you to rate/review on Yelp/app stores if you had given a 5 star rating to the job. They also hacked Yelp to show the Yelp option to people they determined were most likely to leave a good Yelp review. If you have a good product/service that you believe in, you shouldn't need to do this type of thing. Oh, and of course the company was not following the labor/insurance laws in the states where it worked and had several cease and desist orders they ignored.
The hardware startup had like 20% RMA rates because of components would fail over and over. They used VC money to subsidize the returns/repairs instead of fixing the problem. They would prefer to ship more crappy products instead of fewer good products. Not so much illegal (hard to be when selling electronics, yay regulations), but unethical in that they would ship so much garbage despite being "customer obsessed." They operated more like a software company than a hardware company. It's easy to remotely fix software, but hardware is a very different beast and that was something they didn't want to admit.
Compared to my current company, a 30 person electronics firm that has already been acquired and never did too much VC nonsense. We are profitable and sell a good product (1% RMA) that customers enjoy. Instead of "moving fast and breaking things" (a slogan I feel the first two companies embody), we work hard to get things just right before shipping the product so that we never get any returned merchandise but get lots of return customers.
I wonder if this shady/unethical behavior is more focused in consumer startups. In enterprise SaaS, for example, unethical behavior is a low-EV move because your customers will have standing to cancel their contracts or pursue you for damages. It's also harder to be shady under the scrutiny of 500 large recurring-revenue customers than 500,000 tiny ones.
> I don't think it's a coincidence that Jetbrains has created a beloved product without the help of VC money
I don't think the surprise is that they made a good product without VC, I think the surprise is that they made ten figures off the back of nothing but a good product
...which should tell us something about the industry
I don't think the surprise is that they made a good product without VC, I think the surprise is that they made ten figures off the back of nothing but a good product
...which should tell us something about the industry
A company that makes it to a few dozen employees without much financing is already extremely successful. You're very unlikely to ever work for a poorly run company without financing - they can't hire.
Some SMB's that I have met over the years are great at pretending they don't have money when hiring but are very profitable. I think that fits the "bad company, no financing" and is worth mentioning.
This thread is interesting because we're talking about success for different people. Success for the founder? The money? The employees? The answers are relative to the stakeholder we're talking about.
This thread is interesting because we're talking about success for different people. Success for the founder? The money? The employees? The answers are relative to the stakeholder we're talking about.
Success as a product company relative to others. I'm talking about simple selection bias.
A no-financing company with a decent head count is probably in the top 1 percentile among peers. Chances are they're delivering real value.
A VC backed startup hiring a bunch of people is perfectly average. The top 1% for startups would probably be post-IPO/exit/very-late-stage.
So it seems perfectly normal to me a VC backed startup in most cases will look like a total trainwreck compared to a bootstrapped company of the same size.
The vast majority of bootstrapped companies die before they even had a chance to hire anybody. Unlikely you'd ever have to deal with them.
A no-financing company with a decent head count is probably in the top 1 percentile among peers. Chances are they're delivering real value.
A VC backed startup hiring a bunch of people is perfectly average. The top 1% for startups would probably be post-IPO/exit/very-late-stage.
So it seems perfectly normal to me a VC backed startup in most cases will look like a total trainwreck compared to a bootstrapped company of the same size.
The vast majority of bootstrapped companies die before they even had a chance to hire anybody. Unlikely you'd ever have to deal with them.
Yea, that's a really insightful take and I didn't take that into account when I was thinking about this earlier. Appreciate your take!
>>>
Virtually every VC startup I've worked closely with or learned about in detail is doing something nearly everyone would agree is unethical, and a fairly large amount are doing things that are down right illegal spared only by the fact that they aren't big enough to warrant prosecution or even investigation.
Perpetual lip service is always paid to the notion that "we're a user focused company". While the mental gymnastics performed to convince everyone onboard that this is the case are fun to watch, it tragic to see nearly all good projects slowly devolving into ways of tricking the users... and in most cases still losing money. <<<
As an anecdotal point of one, I can confirm that literally none of that is true for the startup I am working for, and we are doing quite well.
Of course, it probably helps that our founders have actual industry and startup experience, and are not pushover adult children like you might find on the Silicon Valley hbo show.
Perpetual lip service is always paid to the notion that "we're a user focused company". While the mental gymnastics performed to convince everyone onboard that this is the case are fun to watch, it tragic to see nearly all good projects slowly devolving into ways of tricking the users... and in most cases still losing money. <<<
As an anecdotal point of one, I can confirm that literally none of that is true for the startup I am working for, and we are doing quite well.
Of course, it probably helps that our founders have actual industry and startup experience, and are not pushover adult children like you might find on the Silicon Valley hbo show.
The more I work in VC backed companies, the more I realize:
VC's are not there to add value to a business, they are there to suck all the value out of a business.
VC's are not there to add value to a business, they are there to suck all the value out of a business.
Yes, but at least most VCs try to do it with an exit. Private Equity is far worse IMO
VC is like visiting sports clubs, finding the best candidates, and overdosing them on steroids. VC hopes the ones that survive will become profitable enough to pay for the ones that it killed.
Yep. Most VC, if not all of them, demand quick return, and it's not always good for the products.
I will go further on VC funded companies. The Culture of Success is simple: If you are a founder, you have to be Perfect Fit, you have to design your idea around what VC's want to hear and this is working model.
One of the reasons that I never work with or for startups. Founders are rarely competent to select the right people, in most cases they lack experience in HR or Product Design, etc.
Bootstrapping is a detector for true products, you scale on a merit of real customer base not on some Valuable Idea for VC investment.
Their open source free pack is so great, many many thanks to them!
And they kill two birds with one stone. First, they support open source, which is great. Second, they increase conversion and loyal userbase. At my job I had a choice between Visual Studio + Resharper vs Rider, and I was reluctant to move from VS to IntelliJ IDEA based IDE, thinking R# is good enough and gives the same benefits inside a familiar IDE. I was so wrong, after trying Rider at home occasionally and pair coding at job, I gradually migrated. The IDE itself is much better, faster, nicer is big and very small details. Now there is no way back to VS, but that may not have happenned without the access at home. Other tools from the Toolbox are doing the same for other languages. Very smart of them to be so generous. Now even if my free pack is not renewed, I will pay for myself. And for foreseeable future I will generate at least one license at work for them.
And they kill two birds with one stone. First, they support open source, which is great. Second, they increase conversion and loyal userbase. At my job I had a choice between Visual Studio + Resharper vs Rider, and I was reluctant to move from VS to IntelliJ IDEA based IDE, thinking R# is good enough and gives the same benefits inside a familiar IDE. I was so wrong, after trying Rider at home occasionally and pair coding at job, I gradually migrated. The IDE itself is much better, faster, nicer is big and very small details. Now there is no way back to VS, but that may not have happenned without the access at home. Other tools from the Toolbox are doing the same for other languages. Very smart of them to be so generous. Now even if my free pack is not renewed, I will pay for myself. And for foreseeable future I will generate at least one license at work for them.
What a great story. Profitable company, great product, simple and honest business model and no VC funding.
It's also pretty consumer-friendly. Every year I get an email from them around November reminding me my subscription will renew in February, and then a couple more reminders along the way.
Agreed- they also did discounts for long term users. I can't beer bothered too switch so pay happily because it's always seemed like fair treatment
I think the total discount on the ‘all products’ pack is now 40% after two years of usage, so I’m paying 15/month for literally all my IDE’s
Pretty good deal if you ask me. Now if only I could do remote development like in VSCode.
Pretty good deal if you ask me. Now if only I could do remote development like in VSCode.
> Now if only I could do remote development like in VSCode.
We are working on it, stay tuned :)
We are working on it, stay tuned :)
Game changer for me and has been one of the reasons to switch to VS. I would love to see it in Jetbrains products :)
The “subscription but keep forever on cancel, sans updates" licence model is just so much more honest than pretending that purchases would be one-time investments and so much less of a risk for the buyer than a hard-stop subscription.
I think it's also good for the product, the right balance between the failure modes of being able to milk existing subscribers even without maintenance for the hard subscription and change for the sake of change that you see with classic one-time licencing where reasons for paid updates have to be invented even when there is nothing to improve (edit: how many great products have been ruined by this?).
I think it's also good for the product, the right balance between the failure modes of being able to milk existing subscribers even without maintenance for the hard subscription and change for the sake of change that you see with classic one-time licencing where reasons for paid updates have to be invented even when there is nothing to improve (edit: how many great products have been ruined by this?).
The perpetual license fallback saved me when my license expired. Due to the US holidays it took our purchasing department a week or two to renew my license. In the mean time I was able to fall back to an older version, and upgrade once my new license came through. It was very easy and straightforward to do in both directions.
So I agree, it's a very honest business model.
So I agree, it's a very honest business model.
Congratulations to them and to all Jetbrains employees. They managed to do two really hard things which most developers flirt with at some time or another.
1. Create a new editor/IDE that's actually better not just different. I think everyone has had shower thoughts about making a better IDE and many have tried and failed. Jetbrains succeeded.
2. Creating a useful abstraction. IntelliJ was a great Java IDE but what's truly impressive is how they've been able to repeat the formula for almost any language out there. Everything from Go to JavaScript has a great Jetbrains IDE. They seem to have somewhat solved the general problem, which is normally a folly but in this case the key to a multibillion dollar company.
So again, congratulations!
1. Create a new editor/IDE that's actually better not just different. I think everyone has had shower thoughts about making a better IDE and many have tried and failed. Jetbrains succeeded.
2. Creating a useful abstraction. IntelliJ was a great Java IDE but what's truly impressive is how they've been able to repeat the formula for almost any language out there. Everything from Go to JavaScript has a great Jetbrains IDE. They seem to have somewhat solved the general problem, which is normally a folly but in this case the key to a multibillion dollar company.
So again, congratulations!
On Earth 2 where Jetbrains took VC money there's an ambitious product manager pushing his team to finish a built-in music player (along with 2 gigs of royalty-free lofi beats) as the issue logs backs up with angry customer complaints about poor language server integrations, crashing, and general slowness.
As if VCs would ever invest in something as unsexy as an IDE. Hoe are you going to blitzscale an IDE?
FWIW I once had a VC tell me to use a certain IDE because it “automatically generates unit tests for you” I nodded politely and said “right, always nice to have test stubs laid out..” and was promptly corrected that it does in fact generate the whole test for you
Was it this maybe? https://www.diffblue.com/
Nope, it was Visual Studio, circa 2012.
$7B valuation on only $200M in EBITDA, let alone profits?
If they aren’t thinking of selling now in this silly market for that ridiculous valuation I admire how centered they are on things more important than money, such as building and owning your own ideas.
If they aren’t thinking of selling now in this silly market for that ridiculous valuation I admire how centered they are on things more important than money, such as building and owning your own ideas.
That's not a really high multiple for a software subscription business.
I suppose the obvious answer to that is - and what do you think the second best IDEs for Java, Python, and JavaScript are? Because the longevity of SaaS defines its value and JetBrains has zero rivals and a very big moat (a polished product beyond any other IDE I’ve used).
You’d assume surviving 10 years is guaranteed and a sale is almost certain. Whoever buys JetBrains (ms, Amazon, google, one of the three for certain) will pay through the nose.
You’d assume surviving 10 years is guaranteed and a sale is almost certain. Whoever buys JetBrains (ms, Amazon, google, one of the three for certain) will pay through the nose.
JetBrains is a profitable company. It has been around for 20 years. Can we please stop calling 20 year old companies startups?
Doesn't surprise me. I switched from TextMate to WebStorm 10 years ago. It was like I suddenly had a superpower. I don't code as much nowadays but I still live in DataGrip to do product analytics. I talked to the JetBrains team recently about how I used their to build open source software, and how we use their tools to build America's newest stock exchange at LTSE.
https://blog.jetbrains.com/webstorm/2020/12/interview-with-r...
https://blog.jetbrains.com/webstorm/2020/12/interview-with-r...
It reads that they raised no external funding whatsoever? Is that true? If so, how? Did they just code an app and start immediately selling it, working another jobs until it become enough profitable to support them full-time? It sounds quite implausible that they did not receive any funding, but I guess it could be true. Very impressive achievement nonetheless.
> It reads that they raised no external funding whatsoever?
It sounds strange now but I suspect for most of history this was true of businesses large and small. I wonder when external funding became "the rule" for successful companies rather than the exception?
It sounds strange now but I suspect for most of history this was true of businesses large and small. I wonder when external funding became "the rule" for successful companies rather than the exception?
Bank loans used to be more significant and commonplace though.
And probably historically it would be (even) more likely to be significantly self-funded as opposed to being all but unfunded and 'bootstrapping', that's my impression anyway.
And probably historically it would be (even) more likely to be significantly self-funded as opposed to being all but unfunded and 'bootstrapping', that's my impression anyway.
Bank loans are still used for many more conventional small businesses.
Absolutely; I didn't say 'banks used to give loans', just that they used to be more significant (number and magnitude) lenders to businesses; not just high street butchers and the like, but what we would today call a 'start-up' too.
This is false. How could the common person have possibly had the capital to start their own business without external funding prior to the 20th century? No, they all had to rely on bank loans, which were arbitrary and capricious, as well as required collateral that made it a very risky proposition to start a company. Venture Capital by comparison is a miracle of the modern world, allowing you to start businesses risk-free.
And this is what the modern VC fueled world has brought us to.
Why is it impossible to believe that a company can start small, become profitable and grow without VC funding? This is how the vast majority of businesses become successful.
Why is it impossible to believe that a company can start small, become profitable and grow without VC funding? This is how the vast majority of businesses become successful.
The company I currently work for also started this way to my knowledge, and I think we're better off for it. It may be harder than getting funding right from the start, but I wouldn't say it's implausible.
It looks like they started by selling a Java tool called IntelliJ Renamer. Likely just bootstrapped that and then reinvested the profits.
They only switched over to the SaaS model maybe five or six years ago, before that you'd buy one copy the application and then buy a newer version when you felt like it. Now you're basically buying a new copy every year no matter what, just like everything else.
They only switched over to the SaaS model maybe five or six years ago, before that you'd buy one copy the application and then buy a newer version when you felt like it. Now you're basically buying a new copy every year no matter what, just like everything else.
No, their current licensing thing becomes the other one after a year. For instance if I stopped paying I'd have IntelliJ IDEA 2019 forever.
There was a huge controversy when they switched and the backlash made them re-evaluate to this which I think is a fair license.
There was a huge controversy when they switched and the backlash made them re-evaluate to this which I think is a fair license.
I've been paying for it for a while and I didn't actually know that. I thought after I stopped paying it would be unlicensed and bricked. Either way though I think the upgrades are probably worth paying for.
If you login and look, they'll say "Perpetual Fallback License for X". That X is what you'll be able to use for life.
And I agree with you on the upgrades.
And I agree with you on the upgrades.
I wouldn't say it is SaaS model. You own a licensed copy pinned at version forever without extra pay and also for offline use. I would rather call it annual upgrade subscription software.
I'm surprised that I don't see more of the HN typical anti-Java stance where the wisdom on here is that you can't build UI applications in Java. Here is a $7B company built entirely with Java Swing providing (IMHO) the best developer tools across almost all languages. Recently, JetBrains gave me an unlimited lifetime license for all their software because I have been a loyal customer for 17 years - very generous. And yes, I would have loved to invest in them anytime along the way but their low burn rate being headquartered in eastern europe makes that pretty unnecessary. They have probably been profitable from the beginning.
Another thing missing from the discussion is whether they are sharing equity (or profits) with their employees. That is also a hallmark of VC funded businesses and one that is often not present in bootstrapped companies. Generally all the economics are consumed by the owners.
Another thing missing from the discussion is whether they are sharing equity (or profits) with their employees. That is also a hallmark of VC funded businesses and one that is often not present in bootstrapped companies. Generally all the economics are consumed by the owners.
I did not realize that it was Swing, since they're not using the Metal L&F. I always wanted to like Swing, but the look and feel were never very good. IntelliJ feels great.
as a PHP developer, PhpStorm is fantastic, and knowing that JetBrains hired one of the most active and prominent PHP Core developers to let him continue working on the language is fantastic. Happy to pay for these apps because of that.
I second this. I've become insanely more productive with PhpStorm. Well worth the money.
It's not exactly clear to me why they hired Nikita Popov, but I'm glad he gets such free rein. I was involved with PHP runtime development in the beginning of the 2010s and saw as he, as a teenager in high-school, progressed so quickly from fixing some bugs to being arguably the person most advancing the language and the implementation (the other being Zeev, who's been around forever, but he's more focused on the implementation).
Wish I could figure out how to set up Xdebug properly on MacOs. Most PHPStorm and Xdebug tutorials are geared for Vagrant set ups but not straight forward localhost on main machine.
Huge fan, couldn't be happier for their success based on delivering untold dev productivity & joy. Great example of a customer focused Co's achieving success through relentless product focus.
All their products are amazing, I'm on the all products pack subscription which is insane value - by far the best value commercial software I've ever used that's always ahead of the competition and gets smarter with every release.
All their products are amazing, I'm on the all products pack subscription which is insane value - by far the best value commercial software I've ever used that's always ahead of the competition and gets smarter with every release.
Isn't JetBrains a Russian company that moved their HQ to Prague due to fear of Russian government?
Based on Wikipedia it was founded in the Czech Republic by three Russians in 2000 which makes it a Czech company just as much as Tesla is an American company (rather than South African).
edit: Fixed founding date, coffee hasn't kicked in yet
edit: Fixed founding date, coffee hasn't kicked in yet
As I understood it Tesla was founded by Americans and later Musk bought in.
> Tesla was founded (as Tesla Motors) on July 1, 2003 by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning in San Carlos, California ... A lawsuit settlement agreed to by Eberhard and Tesla in September 2009 allows all five (Eberhard, Tarpenning, Wright, Musk and Straubel) to call themselves co-founders
Well, SpaceX isn't exactly considered "Africa's Space Programme" either. (But Jetbrains is surely far more Russian than SpaceX is South African)
>"...Tesla is an American company (rather than South African)"
Difference being that Tesla does not keep their core team in South Africa.
Difference being that Tesla does not keep their core team in South Africa.
No, not due to fear. It's just somewhat easier to sell their products using a EU based legal entity. Another example would be Yandex, registered in the Nethelands.
JetBrains main dev offices are in St Petersburg, Moscow, Novosibirsk.
JetBrains main dev offices are in St Petersburg, Moscow, Novosibirsk.
The Czech Republic wasn’t part of the EU in 2000.
Well, it was "a bit" closer to EU than Russia :)
I've never met JetBrains dev who wasn't Russian, and I've met a few (all really smart).
It's just marketing & taxes (I assume).
Everything else is in St.Petersburg. Not too long ago they even bought[1] hotel complex for their office.
Now they are building another business center[2] near by.
[1] https://vc.ru/office/83175-ofis-jetbrains-v-sankt-peterburge [2] https://nsp.ru/5683-mozgi-sobirayutsya-u-gazproma
Everything else is in St.Petersburg. Not too long ago they even bought[1] hotel complex for their office.
Now they are building another business center[2] near by.
[1] https://vc.ru/office/83175-ofis-jetbrains-v-sankt-peterburge [2] https://nsp.ru/5683-mozgi-sobirayutsya-u-gazproma
I really like this quote from the CEO (Maxim Shafirov):
“Basically, we wrote all this so that making software would be a pleasant and creative process.”
“Basically, we wrote all this so that making software would be a pleasant and creative process.”
It is so well deserved. I have switched a few different languages in the last few years and everytime I start working on a new project in a new language, the first thing I do is lookup the IDE that JetBrains is vending for that language and get my manager to expense it. An amazing product.
Well deserved. Their products are just genius, and they help everyone get 5x more productive.
With the Community Edition range of IDEs that they have, I already feel they're doing charity.
I was using Intellij (usually referred to as IDEA back then) after Visual Cafe, JBuilder had died and Netbeans was shit (and/or still to arrive). Was worried they would be killed by mega-corp sponsored Eclipse. Didn't happen. They really succeeded with a straight-forward pay model (and now subscription model). Congrats to them.
Yes! I have been using Jetbrains since college in 99 and have sold hundreds of copies by converting dev teams to it over the years. Its simply, hands down, the best IDE! Stay pure guys!
Could we get a title change? This is a private company and it is not actively being marketed for sale. The founders are not billionaires.
IntelliJ (and the rest of the JetBrains editors) is the only editor I've found with legitimately good emacs keybindings. They're not perfect but they're so much better than the VSCode or Sublime ones. They feel like bindings written by someone who actually uses and likes emacs.
JetBrains genuinely feels like a company run by people who love programming languages and love tooling. How many companies would actively fund a homotopy type theory group^[1]?
[1]: https://research.jetbrains.org/groups/group-for-dependent-ty...
JetBrains genuinely feels like a company run by people who love programming languages and love tooling. How many companies would actively fund a homotopy type theory group^[1]?
[1]: https://research.jetbrains.org/groups/group-for-dependent-ty...
Some people are calling Jetbrains a startup. Hell no, this is just a normal company which builds great products. Making me realize that the shortest definition of startup is VC-backed-product or even worse, VC-backed-potential-product.
IntelliJ is great, PyCharm is good. But RubyMine is the one I’ve used daily for years and it’s a bit of a dog’s dinner and I think getting progressively worse over the years.
I’ve been summarising issues lately:
- https://andyroberts-uk.medium.com/rubymine-code-insights-or-...
- https://medium.com/swlh/rubymine-more-distractions-part-2-24...
I’ve been summarising issues lately:
- https://andyroberts-uk.medium.com/rubymine-code-insights-or-...
- https://medium.com/swlh/rubymine-more-distractions-part-2-24...
I recently stumbled upon the Jetbrains TV youtube channel specifically this one about Go [1]. I don't have Goland specifically but it's really nice that if you have a licensed Ultimate edition of the IDE, you get all that. I have been using IntelliJ for many years now (on a personal license)but pleasantly surprised how many nice/useful features are a key stroke away. Would recommend a quick watch.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0jvAea46YM
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0jvAea46YM
I had my own personal license for Resharper across three jobs because it was much easier just to pay for it myself than try to justify my company to expense it.
I would hate going to another developer’s computer trying to show them something and then realize the feature I was using was part of R# instead of Visual Studio. It was painful.
Now that I have left the C# world for Node, Python and AWS, VSCode with plug-ins are more than adequate.
JetBrains and Hashicorp are definitely two of my favorite companies in the Dev/Devops space.
I would hate going to another developer’s computer trying to show them something and then realize the feature I was using was part of R# instead of Visual Studio. It was painful.
Now that I have left the C# world for Node, Python and AWS, VSCode with plug-ins are more than adequate.
JetBrains and Hashicorp are definitely two of my favorite companies in the Dev/Devops space.
I haven't seen anyone here mention DataGrip, so here goes:
If you work with a database you should try DataGrip. It is the best client I've ever used, for every single database I've tried it with (mostly Postgres, some SQLite and Redshift as well). Autocomplete just works, it will create schema diagrams for you that are accurate and useful, it's data export tools are obvious and fast. I pay for a license personally for use on side projects, and use it at work on a daily basis.
If you work with a database you should try DataGrip. It is the best client I've ever used, for every single database I've tried it with (mostly Postgres, some SQLite and Redshift as well). Autocomplete just works, it will create schema diagrams for you that are accurate and useful, it's data export tools are obvious and fast. I pay for a license personally for use on side projects, and use it at work on a daily basis.
Happy customer for 10years. I cannot imagine how would I do refactor my code without Jetbrains tools
their java IDE was making the competition look really bad 15+ years ago. and never stopped. they deserve every penny
Love what Jetbrains is doing and their success.
But I did come here to note that Jetbrains are as much billionaires (on paper) as the Theranos founders were when the press was fawning over Elizabeth Holmes as the youngest "self-made" billionaire. I'm not comparing the companies. Just there's a big difference between paper billionaire and hard asset billionaire.
But I did come here to note that Jetbrains are as much billionaires (on paper) as the Theranos founders were when the press was fawning over Elizabeth Holmes as the youngest "self-made" billionaire. I'm not comparing the companies. Just there's a big difference between paper billionaire and hard asset billionaire.
My company’s codebase is rapidly becoming too much to compile or even index locally. The official solution is to develop in cloud VMs. I expect I will be on of the last holdouts using my MacBook Pro as a space heater: you will pry the Jetbrains IDEs out of my cold dead hands.
I just hope they get strong client/server support at some point.
I just hope they get strong client/server support at some point.
Started using jetbrains ide around 7-8 years back. Couldn't leave. Tried vscode, netbeans, Atom, eclipse(2nd chance), online ide's, just nothing comes even distant close to jetbrains ide. Can't even think of coding in java without this. This thing just works. Very well deserved valuations.
I remember the time I noticed the UK price was significantly more expensive than the $ price for a piece of their software. I contacted their sales and they let me pay in dollars.
That, plus the fact their tools are really good and really help me mean that I'm very happy about this news.
That, plus the fact their tools are really good and really help me mean that I'm very happy about this news.
>I noticed the UK price was significantly more expensive than the $ price for a piece of their software.
VAT?
VAT?
Love the idea, but could never get into their software. It always felt very alien, especially on OS X. I figured it was due to whatever Java UI framework they were using.
Has that changed it recent years? Does it feel more native? I just set up a new machine, maybe I'll give it a whirl.
Has that changed it recent years? Does it feel more native? I just set up a new machine, maybe I'll give it a whirl.
>Does it feel more native?
No, it feels like a good app. Doesn't have to feel native, same way Photoshop or Vim doesn't have too, they just have to be good pro tools.
Of course native is better, but only if all other things are equal.
No, it feels like a good app. Doesn't have to feel native, same way Photoshop or Vim doesn't have too, they just have to be good pro tools.
Of course native is better, but only if all other things are equal.
I love these guys. My team adopted IntelliJ when it was still 1.0... 2000, 2001 maybe? Far and away the best Java IDE. I even got to talk them at their Booth at JavaOne in 2008... wonderful people. Very happy to see they have stuck it out and made it on their own.
Before JetBrains, I considered IDE to be a bloated, slow and hard to use tool and preferred a more lightweight text editors.
JetBrains has changed that idea and shows what an IDE is supposed to be. Featureful but they're actually helpful form the developer's point of view.
JetBrains has changed that idea and shows what an IDE is supposed to be. Featureful but they're actually helpful form the developer's point of view.
Very, very well deserved! Great software at very reasonable prices. I had the ultimate collection (or whatever the package including all IDEs is called) for 3 or 4 years and it even encourages me to try out new languages once in a while. Its an excellent offering!
Sometimes I used to think that the rich used to lobby governments to create more regulation, so that creating any new business in a space they have their own players would be extremely expensive and thus warrant the need of VC capital to even start. On the other hand when I see how companies abuse their position I can see that the regulation is very much needed. Now there seems to be a disconnect between how smaller businesses are regulated and how big business is essentially left to do as they please as they become too big to fail. How or what is at fault? Is it possible to have a level playing field so that smaller businesses can compete on the same level as big guys and gals?
Fair play to them. Their products have made my life easier for years without spending a cent.
Honestly I've found it to over-promise in terms of its capabilities. When working on code with a complex type hierarchy, features like click-through definitions show the wrong thing, which has resulted in lost productivity for me.
I'm very happy for the team at Jetbrains, they make a solid product.
Back in college in 2002, I was taking a java for programmers class in college, and the teacher was using BlueJ. I had taken programming classes in C++, and had to use Visual Studio for that. I declined to use BlueJ, and decided to find something like Visual Studio. I looked at Netbeans and the predecessor of Eclipse, and eventually found out about Intellij IDEA. I was very happy and used it on a trial basis.
Whenever I've had to use program Java, I've always gravitated towards using Intellij IDEA. If I were programming Java full-time, I'd definitely buy a license for it.
Back in college in 2002, I was taking a java for programmers class in college, and the teacher was using BlueJ. I had taken programming classes in C++, and had to use Visual Studio for that. I declined to use BlueJ, and decided to find something like Visual Studio. I looked at Netbeans and the predecessor of Eclipse, and eventually found out about Intellij IDEA. I was very happy and used it on a trial basis.
Whenever I've had to use program Java, I've always gravitated towards using Intellij IDEA. If I were programming Java full-time, I'd definitely buy a license for it.
I love JetBrains IDE's...
Huge fan, have the all products subscription for years and use multiple of their IDE's simultanously and try to convince anyone who will listen why these are just better IDEs, which is why they should pay for it.
However, please please, bring back the old "local changes" view. It is a huge part of the workflow when coding. I don't know of a single person who thought it needed to be changed, but everyone i've discussed it with wishes it was returned to the previous style.
For the record, you can revert it (for now) by going to: Settings > Version Control > Commit > "Use non-modal commit interface"
Huge fan, have the all products subscription for years and use multiple of their IDE's simultanously and try to convince anyone who will listen why these are just better IDEs, which is why they should pay for it.
However, please please, bring back the old "local changes" view. It is a huge part of the workflow when coding. I don't know of a single person who thought it needed to be changed, but everyone i've discussed it with wishes it was returned to the previous style.
For the record, you can revert it (for now) by going to: Settings > Version Control > Commit > "Use non-modal commit interface"
I'm really glad for these guys, they made a phenomenal product that made life easier for me to develop on. I'm glad Google picked them for Android, it's a dream come true for a hacker.
Heh, their app was the only IDE I went in and added support for when it came to porting macOS keybinds over to Windows and Linux lol. I had no idea they have grown to be so popular and are fully owned still by the original founders.
I have support for VSCode and Sublime Text 3 as well of course, but they're not IDEs.
https://github.com/rbreaves/kinto/blob/master/windows/kinto....
I have support for VSCode and Sublime Text 3 as well of course, but they're not IDEs.
https://github.com/rbreaves/kinto/blob/master/windows/kinto....
Ok so everyone knows and loves JetBrains.
What's their worst product so far?
What's their worst product so far?
I'd say Android Studio and the whole gradle mess
Agreed, but I think that's not entirely on them, but rather the wider JVM & mobile dev ecosystems.
Still better than XCode which regularly looses syntax highlighting for no reason in 2020.
Still better than XCode which regularly looses syntax highlighting for no reason in 2020.
Android Studio is a Google product built on top of IntelliJ.
Gradle isn't their product though. They just have to interop with it.
Gradle with kotlin script is elegant and order of magnitude more powerful than npm & ci
Compared to the previous Eclipse environment, it's ton so much better...
TeamCity, known as TeamShitty in my previous company.
Saying that TeamCity is their worst product sounds like a back-handed compliment to me. It's certainly not a perfect product, but I've been in multiple jobs where they migrated the CI system (including one that did ~25k builds/day) to TeamCity and it was a significant improvement in scalability and manageability over Jenkins, Travis, and some other Windows-only CI system.
To be fair anything is a significant improvement over manageability of Jenkins.
Oh how I have wasted days configuring build and deployment pipelines in TeamCity. Brings back some arguably bad memories!
I haven't been convinced by WebStorm (for Angular and Gatsby/React projects EDIT: with TypeScript). It doesn't feel as magical as IntelliJ or Rider/R#.
I cannot be as magical due to Javascript's dynamic typing. In Java/Kotlin, the IDE can know all about your classes, types, etc., but with Javascript is has to make some guesses.
I am using Webstorm for my side project and have to use Visual Studio Code for company work. Webstorm is so much better IMO. Everything feels to well integrated, while Visual Studio Code always feels like a toy to me.
I am using Webstorm for my side project and have to use Visual Studio Code for company work. Webstorm is so much better IMO. Everything feels to well integrated, while Visual Studio Code always feels like a toy to me.
I've used it with TypeScript exclusively. My qualms are more about debugging (VS Code creates a temporary Firefox profile in seconds and that's it; in WebStorm you need to configure Firefox to launch a certain way and then setup the debugger), the absence of refactoring options, framework support, etc.
Try using Typescript? It feels like magic to me anyway :)
Maybe not as great as Intellij, but definitely much better than VSCode
I'm always impressed by how strong the WebStorm intellisense is on pure javascript projects. Somehow it mostly gets jump-to-definition right, even in AngularJS tarpits that are full of ngInject magic.
Datagrip.
I honestly still cannot understand why their database product does not show the encoding/collation for fields in mysql (and has no way to do it either).
I honestly still cannot understand why their database product does not show the encoding/collation for fields in mysql (and has no way to do it either).
I disagree. I use it daily as my tool to manage data in MySQL, Postgress, Sql server and Db2 databases, and it's probably one of my favorite JetBrains tools. As a Linux user there aren't that many good options available, and I am very grateful that they added this product to their line.
Why/when use datagrip instead of just the database view from intellij idea?
The Database plugin from IntelliJ and Datagrip is essentially the same. My guess is people like to have separate tools based on their purpose and Datagrip serves that need.
For a standalone app, DataGrip is just too bloated and slow.
Native apps like TablePlus is so much faster to work with.
Native apps like TablePlus is so much faster to work with.
YouTrack... I've never used a more confusing and feature lacking bug tracking system. And I've used both JIRA and BugZilla in professional capacity :)
Interesting, what are some of the best features/designs from those systems that you find lacking in github/gitlab?
Agreed. Never felt that their own bug tracker is impressive compared to other online services.
It's just messy and not easy on the eyes. Maybe a different team is working on it?
I tend to run into performance regressions maybe once year after upgrading one of their non-Intellij products. I suppose this is because they mostly use Intellij internally so less dog fooding for other products.
AppCode
I always disliked the name IntelliJ IDEA by JetBrains. It has a product name, a comany name, and something else that until today (15 years after I used it for the first time) is still unclear to me. I mean wouldn't IntelliJ not have been enough? Or IntelliJ IDEA by IntelliJ? It is a fantastic product, but the name?
Interesting. Most people I know actually call the product either just IDEA or IntelliJ. :)
[deleted]
Upsource (the code review/analytics thingy) probably?
I'd like to understand how these guys make money, I've used the free version of IntelliJ for years and never required anymore than this! Does people actually buy licenses ?
Yeah, they are cheap (for US professionals, at least). I've subscribed to their products for over half a decade now and have it on auto-renew without thinking.
If you take the personal license, from 3rd year, you only pay $15/mo for everything they got.
Thank god they don't do Adobe and make a single app cost $50/mo or some such stupid pricing.
Thank god they don't do Adobe and make a single app cost $50/mo or some such stupid pricing.
Some of the language specific IDEs do not have a free (community) version like CLion for C/C++ or Rider for C#/.NET/Unity (and Unreal Engine in the near future) and bring a lot to the table for those languages.
I am a heavy user of CLion and enjoyed my education license while I was in engineering school, I will happily buy a personal license when it expires !
I am a heavy user of CLion and enjoyed my education license while I was in engineering school, I will happily buy a personal license when it expires !
I've had a personal all tool license since they switched to the licensing model. 150 / yr is reasonable for me to be able to use their tools on my personal projects, and also not having to pester my bosses about getting a license whenever I change jobs.
I do Java, Ruby, Go, Clojure, Python, k8s gigs or side projects. For 150EUR/yr I get solid always current workbench with many specialized flavours (IDEA, RubyMine, GoLand, PyCharm) and consistent UX. Moreover there are quality 3rd party plugins available for K8s yamls or Clojure (Cursive).
A year using IntelliJ for React/Node and still trying to find my way around the IDE (IntelliJ).
It seems powerful as is, but I feel like I'm not using it to the full extent
Any tips?
Any tips?
My personal way of learning about any IDE/etc is when i see something interesting in the options/settings/shortcuts or if i accidentally do something odd i think "huh, what is that?" - i try it, and if i like what it does, i try to remember it for next time.
one at a time you build up an insane amount of muscle memory. you can't memorize all the things. it's also one of the reasons i use eclipse shortcuts in pycharms (don't want to rewire muscle memory)
edit: this is ~5 years in to pycharms and i still occasionally learn new things.
one at a time you build up an insane amount of muscle memory. you can't memorize all the things. it's also one of the reasons i use eclipse shortcuts in pycharms (don't want to rewire muscle memory)
edit: this is ~5 years in to pycharms and i still occasionally learn new things.
I feel this way about just about every IDE and editor I've ever used.
I'd say, don't disable the tips that show at startup and try to incorporate them into your workflow. Maybe make some notes of the ones that seem most useful and try to refer back to them, before long you'll find your fingers remember the shortcuts.
Try some of the refactoring options. It’s the only IDE I know that automatically takes care of all the references if I move files, but especially functions and classes around.
We had a huge file with tons of functions inside, and using Intellij it was a simple matter to move them all to their own files (and not have to update any imports anywhere).
We had a huge file with tons of functions inside, and using Intellij it was a simple matter to move them all to their own files (and not have to update any imports anywhere).
One thing that helped me in the beginning was the plugin "Key Promoter X" which suggests keyboard shortcuts on every action.
Try opening the included "learn webstorm" interactive project.
I can't find it right now, but there's a video from a conference where one of the IntelliJ developers show how to work with it productively... it really changed how I use it and made me much better at it.
One of the things that struck me the most was that you shouldn't use tabs... They are very inefficient at navigating between files... Use the file switcher (Cmd+E on Mac) to switch between recent files, or type search (Cmd+O on Mac, followed by initial letters of the words, e.g. to find FooBarClass type 'fbc') for anything else... and disable tabs in preferences.
Another good one is to use `Cmd+Shift+A` to search by action (e.g. Cmd+shift+A > "show bytecode")... with time you either start remembering the shortcut which is shown when you select the action, or you just get used to searching it this way which takes just a second anyway. One more hint: navigate between implementation/definition using Cmd+B on Mac (don't remember the Windows/Linux shortcut) which alternates between the two things, so you can go back and forward using just that! Talking about moving back/forwards, on Mac, use Cmd+[ to go back to previous lines you were editing, and Cmd+] to go forwards again (very handy to look back at what you had been doing before then moving back where you stopped).... oh, there's so much more... just watch some videos on YouTube and practice the hints you like the most.
One of the things that struck me the most was that you shouldn't use tabs... They are very inefficient at navigating between files... Use the file switcher (Cmd+E on Mac) to switch between recent files, or type search (Cmd+O on Mac, followed by initial letters of the words, e.g. to find FooBarClass type 'fbc') for anything else... and disable tabs in preferences.
Another good one is to use `Cmd+Shift+A` to search by action (e.g. Cmd+shift+A > "show bytecode")... with time you either start remembering the shortcut which is shown when you select the action, or you just get used to searching it this way which takes just a second anyway. One more hint: navigate between implementation/definition using Cmd+B on Mac (don't remember the Windows/Linux shortcut) which alternates between the two things, so you can go back and forward using just that! Talking about moving back/forwards, on Mac, use Cmd+[ to go back to previous lines you were editing, and Cmd+] to go forwards again (very handy to look back at what you had been doing before then moving back where you stopped).... oh, there's so much more... just watch some videos on YouTube and practice the hints you like the most.
That sounds really interesting. If anybody finds it, i would happy to learn better how to use their products.
oh, found it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8wRC7Qkcb8
It's old , but it should still help a lot.
It's old , but it should still help a lot.
I don't want to seem like a complainer, but AppCode is still not working as good as I'd like (indexing is really slow, misses out of a lot features that other Jetbrains products have, and also extra bugs). But it's still 5x better than XCode. And thats the point, they're making a better iOS development environment than Apple
They miss out on some features where you have to XCode, but this is Apple's fault.
They miss out on some features where you have to XCode, but this is Apple's fault.
Agreed. I just quit using it and thrown in Vim key binding to xcode instead.
JetBrains subscription has been my most satisfying subscription to date. More than my Netflix and Disney plus and I like baby Yoda :)
This is a huge achievement because "without VC help" literally means "All VCs and all their corporate friends actively working to destroy you".
Maybe they succeeded because they got things going a long time ago. I doubt they would succeed if they started only a couple of years ago. They would have been crushed by the VC-corporate complex.
Maybe they succeeded because they got things going a long time ago. I doubt they would succeed if they started only a couple of years ago. They would have been crushed by the VC-corporate complex.
Who's trying to destroy JetBrains? Who's even competing with them?
I tried to use their CLion IDE for C++ development but had numerous problem preventing me from working. The company was responsive and tried to help me, no complaints in this department, but I lost my patience pretty fast as I was not willing to invest significant time into making things work that should've worked right out of the box.
Do you mind sharing your experience? My experience with Clion has been great so far, but I understand that Clion is somewhat opinionated on the project structure (for example, only CMake support), so it might not work well with existing projects.
Problems with crashing while debugging, inability to debug, etc. Do not remember details as it was more than a year ago and as I've said I was not willing to spend much time on that.
Well deserved. I love PyCharm Professional Edition. I remember I got their "startup discount" which is 50% for one year, even though I was just starting a limited company to freelance.
https://www.jetbrains.com/store/startups/
https://www.jetbrains.com/store/startups/
They make the best IDE, they actually invented many of the features that we take for granted.
I remember the first time I used IDEA (I think it was version 2.5), it was a truly magical experience. The little idea lamp popping up and almost reading your mind.
I was hooked, learned the refactors and most shortcuts and I could fly. They earned every cent.
I remember the first time I used IDEA (I think it was version 2.5), it was a truly magical experience. The little idea lamp popping up and almost reading your mind.
I was hooked, learned the refactors and most shortcuts and I could fly. They earned every cent.
What do Jetbrains customers mostly use?
From my understanding, it's mostly Intellij and GoLand, and some PyCharm. At least two of the three are languages that are every difficult to be productive in with Sublime or Vim alone.
I guess PyCharm allows you to stop thinking about whitespace? In seriousness, not trying to start another holy war.
From my understanding, it's mostly Intellij and GoLand, and some PyCharm. At least two of the three are languages that are every difficult to be productive in with Sublime or Vim alone.
I guess PyCharm allows you to stop thinking about whitespace? In seriousness, not trying to start another holy war.
RubyMine & WebStorm are both great products.
sure, i'm wondering how many people pay for them though
Everyone I know who pays for them just buys the "All Products" pack. The loyalty discount just makes it a no-brainer.
Rider is great. You do have VsCode competing in that space, but I still like Rider better as an actual IDE. Though VsCode with vim mode is my default lightweight editor now.
What language can you even be much proficient with Vim compared to JetBrains?
Vim is only good for editing config files.
Vim is only good for editing config files.
Java w/o IntelliJ would be miserable.
That said, I hate their nonsensical keybindings for (my) most common uses (looking at you function keys). I also wish their plugin API was more stable. A lot of great plugins seem to require a lot of maintenance work release to release.
That said, I hate their nonsensical keybindings for (my) most common uses (looking at you function keys). I also wish their plugin API was more stable. A lot of great plugins seem to require a lot of maintenance work release to release.
If you're on macOS, since 2020.3 you can try the macOS System Shortcuts keymap. It should feel much more native, no function keys included.
>The Prague-based startup
This is Czech company as much as Luxsoft is Swiss or Telegram is from UAE.
Using JetBrains tools you potentially give Russia/FSB access to your source code and open yourself to a possibility of getting backdoor inserted into binaries during compilation.
This is Czech company as much as Luxsoft is Swiss or Telegram is from UAE.
Using JetBrains tools you potentially give Russia/FSB access to your source code and open yourself to a possibility of getting backdoor inserted into binaries during compilation.
This is even more doubtful than with Kaspersky. But then again, Russia has the same concerns about Microsoft software, and so on down the line.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_Linux
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_Linux
That’s the first time I am reading these allegations. Do you have sources backing up your claim or is it just expected to be “common knowledge”?
In Russia anyone rich enough is either part of FSB or gets an offer one can't refuse (for example, see Sysoev/NGINX).
Owners of the company are not dead.
Owners of the company are not dead.
Do you have any evidence to back these allegations?
Right and that's reason why all these companies not based in Russia.
The sanctions for (Crimea, MH17, chemical weapons attack in Britain ans so on) are the reason these companies are not based in Russia.
but what if I generate my binaries on a CI-CD server?
I wish Jetbrains would lower the personal license price. I use my compnay license all the time but still pay Jetbrains $89 every year (don't know why I've been doing that for a few years already, should give it a second thought).
I didn't even apply for a license from my company because I use it on my personal laptop too. Jetbrains is so good that I actually feel happy paying for it. Its quite ironical that I started my career as an Eclipse RCP developer and up until 2016 I considered it the best IDE in the world.
IntelliJ is 15€ a month, hardly expensive. A rack of good Augustiner beer is more expensive.
Personal license is already low...
You'd be paying in the range of $10/mo.
I'd rather complain to companies like Adobe to ask for $50/mo with their domination because of their proprietary file format.
I will develop on any OS you force me to as long as you pay for my IntelliJ license. But seriously, I consider IntelliJ more important than the underlying OS to be productive as a developer.
JetBrains products are blacklisted by the DoD (and a growing list of defense contractors) because they have offices in Moscow and St. Petersburg.
I’m guessing it’s over concerns about Russian backdoors.
I’m guessing it’s over concerns about Russian backdoors.
Love them. I would pay for them myself, if I had to even though pricing would translate to a considerable amount in my country, its worth it. Hope their new venture, Spaces, take off.
Happy to see this, it’s well earned. I’ve used their products since IDEA v3 back in 2003 and it’s consistently been excellent.
Hard to believe IDEA is 20 years old next month!
Jetbrains deserves all the good things people say about them.
It's the only software I continue to pay as a subscription because they bring awesome software and they keep it coming.
It's the only software I continue to pay as a subscription because they bring awesome software and they keep it coming.
One of the best products from Russia these days, another one is Telegram.
I have an annual license for all its products, I actually use vim daily, but still keep Jetbrains, just in case.
I have an annual license for all its products, I actually use vim daily, but still keep Jetbrains, just in case.
Has anybody tried to make Vim act as close as a JetBrains IDE?
Some people code in Vim and think they're ace but that's just so far behind no matter how you tweak it.
Some people code in Vim and think they're ace but that's just so far behind no matter how you tweak it.
Vim is a way of editing. I use IdeaVim inside jetbrains IDEs and it is awesome. Many popular vim plugins are also supported.
I still try to keep vim as close as possible as an open source alternative. Thankfully, a lot of editor features have been abstracted enough that the same software runs in vscode and terminal vim. e.g. ternjs for intelligent autocomplete in JavaScript, and the vim keybindings itself. Still, open source code intelligence isn't as good as the proprietary intelligence of jetbrains, so I bring vim inside jetbrains.
I still try to keep vim as close as possible as an open source alternative. Thankfully, a lot of editor features have been abstracted enough that the same software runs in vscode and terminal vim. e.g. ternjs for intelligent autocomplete in JavaScript, and the vim keybindings itself. Still, open source code intelligence isn't as good as the proprietary intelligence of jetbrains, so I bring vim inside jetbrains.
I am glad my personal site license enables such awesome. Jetbrains is a wonderful company and I hope they continue to retain agency over their customer focus.
I'll pile on -- thank you, JetBrains, for great tools that have helped my productivity immensely! I use RubyMine and GoLand constantly.
Their version control integration is the best git UX imo. Especially love change lists for organizing individual lines of code into commits.
Being a Dev, I get the company paying for my tools but otherwise they will be money well spent. I use everything, from dB to Goland to Idea.
So when is kotlinc going to be rewritten in kotlin native/multiplatform?
To be a serious competitor to rust/C++ compilation speeds matter.
To be a serious competitor to rust/C++ compilation speeds matter.
Actually I doubt that they aren't getting something out of Android Studio and Kotlin usage as Java replacement on Android.
i keep going back to emacs/vim for coding, but jetbrains in one of the few bigger vendors about whom i’ve got nothing bad to say, ever. i love their tools, just prefer the terminal. one of my teammates did get me to convert from psql to datagrip for most of my data work. that alone is a testament to the quality of the tools!
Well, my life was changed by ReSharper. Seriously.
Now I'm using Rider to work with Unreal and thus far, I'm not disappointed.
Now I'm using Rider to work with Unreal and thus far, I'm not disappointed.
As a non programmer, I always secretly admire Jetbrains's software icons. So unique :)
Good! Not all companies need the grow-at-all-costs mentality that comes with VC funding.
IntelliJ and the rest rock. I switched from Eclipse 8+ years ago and never looked back.
I wonder what they are paid by Google to help in maintaining Android Studio.
Using an IDE is a superpower that separates the 1 vs 20. Love the product!
Hope they will increase even more human resources dedicated to Kotlinc :)
To quote a scene from Sunless Skies, a game in an eldtrich steampunk setting with a sometimes Discworld'ish wit:
> For safety reasons, all claimants must hire a hour-harker to escort them on the mountain. The hour-harkers all agree on the importance of this.
> For safety reasons, all claimants must hire a hour-harker to escort them on the mountain. The hour-harkers all agree on the importance of this.
Congratulations! You absolutely deserve it :)
How does Webstorm compare to VS Code?
Where would I be without RubyMine?
Two more policy failures!
They deserve it！
Well deserved.
well deserved
Fair play to them. They are in a bit of a bubble here in Prague as noone from my Czech/EU network has worked for them, but still the product is great, their treatment of community - excellent and I wish them best of luck in the future as well.
P.S. I am currently shilling for Jetbrains Spaces to the leadership :D
P.S. I am currently shilling for Jetbrains Spaces to the leadership :D
One of the best purchases I ever made was JetBrain's all products package about 6 or 7 years ago. The prices for their products keep going up, but I was grandfathered in at about $150.
Since their HQ is in Russia is no one else concerned that their IDE may be subject to Russian spying?
I mean, I'm currently reading the book Sandworm. And it is known in the cybersecurity world that Russia coerces or intimidates companies and devs to work for them as spies.
I mean, I'm currently reading the book Sandworm. And it is known in the cybersecurity world that Russia coerces or intimidates companies and devs to work for them as spies.
Their headquarter is in Prague, Czechia and that's part of the European Union.
It says on jetbrains.com that their HQ is in Prague, Czech Republic.
On wikipedia it says they're a Czech company with headquarters in Prague, Czech Republic.
edit: Looks like they're maybe not entirely transparent about that.
edit: Looks like they're maybe not entirely transparent about that.
You can find all locations at the website [1], there are Russian cities among them. I believe it's pretty much transparent.
[1] https://www.jetbrains.com/company/
[1] https://www.jetbrains.com/company/
I mean transparent about what is really their HQ.
What do you mean by "really?" HQ is and always was in Prague, that's it. https://www.jetbrains.com/company/contacts/#headquarters-int...
Which is, undoubtedly, so much worse than the spying by US companies?
Somehow McCarthyism is acceptable in woke America.
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I don’t get it though, why not just go public now and get tons of money? The IPO may never fetch as high of a price as it would now, even if the company gets more valuable in the future.
It's not easy for a Czech company to do IPO in the USA. It's not worth it here.
They could find an investor willing to buy them out. Doesn't have to be an IPO.
Still, if you are happy with the amount of money you have and you have a business you enjoy running, why sell? This is probably their view of it.
Still, if you are happy with the amount of money you have and you have a business you enjoy running, why sell? This is probably their view of it.
Avast did their IPO in London. Most companies I have heard of were considering doing it in Singapore.
Yep, buyouts happen here more often than IPOs, just recently Socialbakers got acquired by Astute, and Integromat got acquired Celonis.
Also this is where Sun acquired NetBeans way back in 99.
Also this is where Sun acquired NetBeans way back in 99.
Why does it have to be in the USA? You can IPO at other stock exchanges. For example, CD Projekt Red, the game studio that developed the Witcher series and Cyberpunk 2077, is listed on the Warsaw Stock Exchange (Poland) and valued at ~$10bln (although the stock price has been really volatile recently).
Sometimes it's not all about money. Having shareholders can make the company head in a direction different to the direction that the current founders want it to go.
I don’t see why they need to. They are incredibly successful already plus pretty sure enjoying what they do. An IPO would probably put much of that at risk so why bother? I’ve always understood them to be driven more by the desire to help make software development more pleasant.
Because an IPO would have the founders lose a lot of control over the company, and they're more motivated by that than by money.
Well, there's values that differ by countries. I've seen a few old family run businesses being sold off to US VCs and things didnt turn out well often:
- customers got screwed over
- same with employees
- quality "optimizations"
- financial engineering
- founder's longterm values abondoned for quarterly gains
Not taking VC cash is a more traditional take on things elsewhere.
- customers got screwed over
- same with employees
- quality "optimizations"
- financial engineering
- founder's longterm values abondoned for quarterly gains
Not taking VC cash is a more traditional take on things elsewhere.
Not taking VC cash is a more traditional take on things here in the US, too. The VC cash/investment money chase is really only a thing in tech circles, and a few other niche areas. The vast majority of businesses simply build "organically" (and most die doing it).
Why would they? It seems that they have enough resources for the things they want to do, so why risk it?
Why would anybody need tons of money? They have a working company, happy customers and perhaps happy enough employees too. And I'm sure they have salary big enough to pay the rent... and drive a Porsche if they want to.
The cool part is, they don't need to. The founders are in control, not the VCs or other investors, so the company isn't obliged to put generating money over all other concerns. And being billionaires, the founders are probably doing fine. They'd apparently prefer to keep the good thing they've got going than to ruin it by selling it off.
There's more in life than getting even more money.
There's more in life than getting even more money.
Long term that should net them a lot more money. Having and keeping a true mission will allow them to leave all competitors behind. Because even if competitors can seem strong from time to time (VS Code and Atom recently) they will end up dying because of de-prioritization and leadership without vision (Atom).
I think they aren't technically billionaires. Rather, JetBrains is valued at over a billion dollars. So if they sold their entire stake, then they'd be billionaires.
I'm sure they pay themselves well but I don't think they will be sitting on a billion dollars in either cash or shares.
I'm sure they pay themselves well but I don't think they will be sitting on a billion dollars in either cash or shares.
Did you read the headline? They are BILLIONAIRES. For some people that is enough money and they focus on different values.
But only in the sense of having a company that "is worth about $7 billion" according to some estimates. The point of the discussion is that they could convert that to real money that could be used to buy other assets (but no-one is forcing them to do so, so they really have the choice).
"Obtain as much money as possible" isn't the goal of everyone at every time, especially when one already has all the money and resources they need.
Not everyone believes life is a game where the goal is to die with the highest score, above all else. Some do, but not everyone.
You're able to control pretty much every aspect within a private company with no shareholders to answer to and no public disclosures. You're free to use the assets of your company to implement your personal values.
Not everyone believes life is a game where the goal is to die with the highest score, above all else. Some do, but not everyone.
You're able to control pretty much every aspect within a private company with no shareholders to answer to and no public disclosures. You're free to use the assets of your company to implement your personal values.
So that must mean they feel their values are worth more than billions of dollars? Really? Give up all that over some feelings about developer tools?
If they lose control and starts putting profit up front as their primary objective than developer spirits, I'm sure many will move to vs code and vs code may speed up its development with more eyes and hands.
I canceled all my personal jetbrains products a few years ago after meeting some of their team at GopherCon.
I vote with my money and I was a 5+ year subscriber up until that point. I visited their booth with same enthusiasm as other posters here and lavished praise on their tooling and talked about how excited I was for their Go IDE and they just stared at me and said “Ok, thanks”.
Something so empty and almost a pretentious kind of tone when it was said was a massive turnoff. Why even come to a conference if you don’t want to engage with your users?
I don’t expect my story to change any hearts or minds and I still use their tools when a company provides them for Java work but I’ve replaced my usage of their other tools with VS Code and plug-ins for my personal projects.
I vote with my money and I was a 5+ year subscriber up until that point. I visited their booth with same enthusiasm as other posters here and lavished praise on their tooling and talked about how excited I was for their Go IDE and they just stared at me and said “Ok, thanks”.
Something so empty and almost a pretentious kind of tone when it was said was a massive turnoff. Why even come to a conference if you don’t want to engage with your users?
I don’t expect my story to change any hearts or minds and I still use their tools when a company provides them for Java work but I’ve replaced my usage of their other tools with VS Code and plug-ins for my personal projects.
Cutting off the nose to spite the face
Is it possible the booth was ran by marketing and not developers? Either way thats pretty awful.
I was asking a genuine question, I've seen some sassy marketing people, but when I talk to developers at booth is a whole different attitude (positive) when they see other developers.
Perhaps it was run by some introverted developer-types? Or there were some cultural differences at play?
The reaction seems a bit excessive and I'm not sure if it characterizes the company as a whole.
Could be possibly because they were Czech? The culture is very different from what Americans are used to. Very reserved, very matter-of-fact, no smalltalk.
Jetbrains is mostly Russian. Their main development center is in St. Petersburg (Kotlin is actually a name of the island in St. Petersburg archipelago).
Not to invalidate the way you feel about that interaction, but putting myself in their shoes- I’m not sure my response would be much better.
Running a booth at a conference is EXHAUSTING. Also, that was your first interaction with them and you were at peak excitement. That might’ve been the thousandth time they had heard similar and their spark may have faded by the time you got there.
I get it though, we feel the way we feel. It sucks when your enthusiasm goes un-matched. I’ve written off companies for interactions a more objective bystander might charitably forgive.
BTW- I’ve got no relation to the company or product. I’m just a happy customer who’s run a booth or two in my day and also felt the same way as you about other companies too.
Running a booth at a conference is EXHAUSTING. Also, that was your first interaction with them and you were at peak excitement. That might’ve been the thousandth time they had heard similar and their spark may have faded by the time you got there.
I get it though, we feel the way we feel. It sucks when your enthusiasm goes un-matched. I’ve written off companies for interactions a more objective bystander might charitably forgive.
BTW- I’ve got no relation to the company or product. I’m just a happy customer who’s run a booth or two in my day and also felt the same way as you about other companies too.
Maybe is a culture/language thing. Because I am not a native English speaker and I almost never have to speak (only read and write) when we have a video conference I always express myself with few words because I am aware how terrible I sound so I will use a lot of OK,Yes, Sure ...
Yes, those Russians can be quite blunt. I once found a great library maintained by a Russian guy that had zero issues on Github. I created an issue for a feature request and was brushed off with unexpected rudeness. Later I looked at this again and found that he was absolutely correct with his argument and his communication was just very efficient and I am sure he did not mean to be rude.
I'm sorry to hear that. We really strive to talk to everyone we can, and we are happy to hear all the stories from subscribers, or otherwise. Feedback, and more importantly, meeting with people is why we go to conferences.
Can you please remember at which GopherCon / year this happened?
I'm usually part of all the conferences teams and I can say that at conferences such as GopherCon US 2019, I speak daily with 200-300 people easily at the booth.
All of our booth staff is developers + myself (Developer Advocate) and from time to time we are joined by our Product Marketing Manager.
It's not an excuse for this type of reply, and I believe that nobody should be treated like this.
Can you please remember at which GopherCon / year this happened?
I'm usually part of all the conferences teams and I can say that at conferences such as GopherCon US 2019, I speak daily with 200-300 people easily at the booth.
All of our booth staff is developers + myself (Developer Advocate) and from time to time we are joined by our Product Marketing Manager.
It's not an excuse for this type of reply, and I believe that nobody should be treated like this.
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