State of Digital Nomads(nomadlist.com)
nomadlist.com
State of Digital Nomads
https://nomadlist.com/digital-nomad-statistics?ref=83333
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Useless stats from an extremely US-centric website that caters to the typical digital bro-mad
It's run by a Dutch indie-hacker who is probably somewhere in Europe / Bali right now.
Can you share what useful statistics look like for you?
Can you share what useful statistics look like for you?
I've been working while traveling on and off until 2020.
I've visited many coworking spaces. I live in a city that's as international as you can get. I've reported extensively on digital nomadic life for national newspapers.
Not a single place I've been to reflects this poll in any way. The crowd is so much more diverse, there's plenty of women, U.S. people are absolutely not predominant except for some bromadic enclaves like Chiang Mai, and jobs are also way more very diverse (lots of business analytics kind of people, for example). This is reflected by my talks with people that run coworkings and communities.
What this stats show is really the composition of this website's audience. The way the website is built and collects information is skewed towards a typical demographics of English native data/programming oriented nerds.
That's absolutely not an issue until you make stats like these and call the whole thing "State of Digital Nomads".
While I was a digital nomad for many years (including a full year stint with Remote Year), I discovered I mostly couldn't stand being around other digital nomads. This survey helps me to understand why, because while I fit the average in some ways, in most cases I break the mold. It's unfortunate my favorite city has made it into the top 5, it was basically devoid of travelers or visitors when I was there last and was better for it.
I don't intend to continue with nomading post-pandemic, and had pretty much stopped before the pandemic began anyhow. It was a great run though, and I recommend it to anyone who can structure their life to support doing it, although I don't think it's doable as a permanent lifestyle unless you're very much aligned with the average nomad. While everybody I met and traveled with were decent, smart people, at some level I just approach my goals of travel differently than most other people. I think a lot of digital nomads are subtly and unintentionally disrespectful to the places that they travel to, and this is something I really couldn't abide, which is why I ended up greatly preferring solo travel and avoiding coworking spaces or other nomad hotspots.
I don't intend to continue with nomading post-pandemic, and had pretty much stopped before the pandemic began anyhow. It was a great run though, and I recommend it to anyone who can structure their life to support doing it, although I don't think it's doable as a permanent lifestyle unless you're very much aligned with the average nomad. While everybody I met and traveled with were decent, smart people, at some level I just approach my goals of travel differently than most other people. I think a lot of digital nomads are subtly and unintentionally disrespectful to the places that they travel to, and this is something I really couldn't abide, which is why I ended up greatly preferring solo travel and avoiding coworking spaces or other nomad hotspots.
There's places like Chiang Mai where that's the case more often than not. But the nice thing is that you can break out of that pretty easily as a Digital Nomad, and plenty of places don't have that vibe yet. Even in Chiang Mai you just have to avoid some specific places full of wannabe millionaire dropshippers with an Ego the size of the Royal Palace, and you can enjoy your stay anyway.
I agree that if you're solo you can definitely break away from these spaces. But I think it's hard to do that with group travel, because those spaces are attractive to a lot of people who are digital nomads for exactly the reasons I don't like those spaces. Somewhat ironically, if you spend most of your time nomading in more major cities, it makes it easier to escape the typical because the city is large enough you can just avoid it, but when what you coined as "bro-mads" invade smaller spaces it's much harder to escape, just by virtue of being a foreigner you will likely encounter them at some point.
FWIW, I found that the digital nomads I got along the best with were continental European. I pretty much can't stand Americans, the British, and Australians when I'm traveling (even though I'm American myself). For some reason most Americans, British, and Australians go into every experience by comparing it to where they come from and judging it by that standard and expecting so much and in ways I find disrespectful. Also, it's shocking how loud and obnoxious and how obsessed with "partying" those demographics are. I'm not a teetotaler, but if all you do is spend every waking moment getting plastered in a night club, how does one location really differ from another? If you just want to spend your life being shithoused, you can do that at home without invading other spaces with your destructive energy. Part of my experiences might have been because digital nomads from those countries skew young (early 20s), most of the Europeans I met were older (30+).
At any rate, I invested myself into the experience, and I loved solo travel but group experiences really soured me on the "digital nomad lifestyle" and the sort of people who see themselves that way. And for my own ego issue, I think partly I was annoyed by being judged on the basis of how others behave rather than how I behave. Nonetheless, I found the experience rewarding and met lots of amazing people I've kept in touch with and I hope left each place I visited enriched by my presence rather than diminished by it.
FWIW, I found that the digital nomads I got along the best with were continental European. I pretty much can't stand Americans, the British, and Australians when I'm traveling (even though I'm American myself). For some reason most Americans, British, and Australians go into every experience by comparing it to where they come from and judging it by that standard and expecting so much and in ways I find disrespectful. Also, it's shocking how loud and obnoxious and how obsessed with "partying" those demographics are. I'm not a teetotaler, but if all you do is spend every waking moment getting plastered in a night club, how does one location really differ from another? If you just want to spend your life being shithoused, you can do that at home without invading other spaces with your destructive energy. Part of my experiences might have been because digital nomads from those countries skew young (early 20s), most of the Europeans I met were older (30+).
At any rate, I invested myself into the experience, and I loved solo travel but group experiences really soured me on the "digital nomad lifestyle" and the sort of people who see themselves that way. And for my own ego issue, I think partly I was annoyed by being judged on the basis of how others behave rather than how I behave. Nonetheless, I found the experience rewarding and met lots of amazing people I've kept in touch with and I hope left each place I visited enriched by my presence rather than diminished by it.
I'm a digital nomad right now and I check every single box on the "Who is the average nomad?" except Mexico City, but I had it in mind to go there in the new year. I'm leaving my current stay tomorrow, after 72 days. I feel so exposed right now.
CDMX is _great_
What's the deal with unattractive private pilot women? This is such a rare thing, there must be 1-2 super annoying girls that everyone has heard of. Any insights?
It's probably not unattractive per se but the person is usually under unpredictable and busy schedules making dating difficult.
Yeah I saw this. Weird. A woman being a Private pilot is more unattractive than smoking? Uh ok.
Is there any location that likes having nomads living with them? They aren't part of the community, they dont pay taxes, they usually get paid a lot more than the locals but dont spend it locally. Dont get me started on van-life nomads who really are parasites on any community they descend on - adding nothing and enjoying everything.
> They aren't part of the community, they dont pay taxes
So not much different than tourists that are welcome to spend their money in countries?
So not much different than tourists that are welcome to spend their money in countries?
Unlike nomads, tourists aren't earning income while on vacation, so there's no income tax to be paid. Nomads earn income but don't pay local income tax (hopefully they at least pay it in the their "home" jurisdiction).
Tourists tend to stay in highly taxed hotels or short-term rentals. Nomads might do that, but they also couch surf, camp, live in vans, etc.
Tourists dine out more than a typical resident, which in most places is taxed higher than groceries.
And simply based on length of stay, a nomad is more likely to consume expensive services like medical care.
With all that said, there should be a way for people to work wherever they want (and pay appropriate taxes while doing so).
Tourists tend to stay in highly taxed hotels or short-term rentals. Nomads might do that, but they also couch surf, camp, live in vans, etc.
Tourists dine out more than a typical resident, which in most places is taxed higher than groceries.
And simply based on length of stay, a nomad is more likely to consume expensive services like medical care.
With all that said, there should be a way for people to work wherever they want (and pay appropriate taxes while doing so).
Unless they're doing some shady things, it doesn't seem to me like a city/community will lose money on a nomad. They still need to pay for goods and services, housing, travel, etc. Local business makes money, and government taxes it.
Traditional tourists may spend more money, but nomads still likely spend more than locals do.
Traditional tourists may spend more money, but nomads still likely spend more than locals do.
In a lower income area, that's certainly possibly.
But, in a higher income area? I doubt it. A single mid-career developer in the US is going to pay somewhere around 20% in income taxes (combined federal, state/local, FICA, after 401k contributions and taking standard deduction).
A nomad living in my area (DC metro) would have to consume a lot of stuff to make up for that tax shortfall.
But, in a higher income area? I doubt it. A single mid-career developer in the US is going to pay somewhere around 20% in income taxes (combined federal, state/local, FICA, after 401k contributions and taking standard deduction).
A nomad living in my area (DC metro) would have to consume a lot of stuff to make up for that tax shortfall.
This is moreso a failing of states to capitalize on remote workers. Plenty of people would just get a visa if possible. But it's very complex for most countries, and especially the USA.
edit: Estonia is the only one that I know of that explicitly considers the position of being employed by a company located in a foreign country. https://e-resident.gov.ee/nomadvisa/
edit: Estonia is the only one that I know of that explicitly considers the position of being employed by a company located in a foreign country. https://e-resident.gov.ee/nomadvisa/
This is moreso a failing of states to capitalize on remote workers. Plenty of people would just get a visa if possible. But it's very complex for most countries, and especially the USA.
Absolutely agree. I'm not anti-nomad - I'd love to do it myself. But, the hurdles of doing are too high to make the leap. Hell, even doing it within the US isn't easy because of state taxes. And I'd want to visit places for more than the typical 90-day tourist visa - probably more like a year at a time.
Absolutely agree. I'm not anti-nomad - I'd love to do it myself. But, the hurdles of doing are too high to make the leap. Hell, even doing it within the US isn't easy because of state taxes. And I'd want to visit places for more than the typical 90-day tourist visa - probably more like a year at a time.
A nomad that isn't also a criminal tax evader doesn't have an income tax shortfall to make up in most US jurisdictions, since most US jurisdictions with an income tax levy it on all income earned while in the jurisdiction.
There may be a state or local payroll tax shortfall, because those have different standards, but usually directly fund benefit programs for which the nomad worker isn't eligible as a result of the same rules, so its a wash.
There may be a state or local payroll tax shortfall, because those have different standards, but usually directly fund benefit programs for which the nomad worker isn't eligible as a result of the same rules, so its a wash.
Yeah, the above posts don't make any sense. Nomads have to eat and sleep, just like everyone else. When I was in Korea I stayed at various Airbnbs owned by local Koreans and got food at local places owned by Koreans. I paid for the metro system (which I used just about every day) and for KTX bullet train tickets. I fail to see negatives here from a financial perspective.
I would gladly get a visa and pay taxes to enroll in the healthcare system... but it's quite difficult. That's another discussion, though.
I would gladly get a visa and pay taxes to enroll in the healthcare system... but it's quite difficult. That's another discussion, though.
Income taxes in most areas (at least in relatively wealthy countries) far exceed any VAT/sales/consumption taxes.
That's the main complaint I've heard - nomads don't pay local income taxes, but consume services more like a local than a tourist.
That's the main complaint I've heard - nomads don't pay local income taxes, but consume services more like a local than a tourist.
> Income taxes in most areas (at least in relatively wealthy countries) far exceed any VAT/sales/consumption taxes.
Don't be so sure about this. Link?
E.g: Sweden 2020, income taxes 31% vs VAT 22% of total tax revenue.
Nomads are great. They drop by in prime productive age, stay for a bit and generate tax revenue. Only stay as long as they have money, no social security costs. Have medical insurance.
? How do you calculate to get them to be net negative to your society ?
Don't be so sure about this. Link?
E.g: Sweden 2020, income taxes 31% vs VAT 22% of total tax revenue.
Nomads are great. They drop by in prime productive age, stay for a bit and generate tax revenue. Only stay as long as they have money, no social security costs. Have medical insurance.
? How do you calculate to get them to be net negative to your society ?
You're proving my point. 31% of total income is quite a bit more tax than 22% of consumer spending (which is a fraction of total income).
For a resident with $100,000 income... $31,000 in income taxes. Assuming no savings and all consumption taxed at 22%, that's ~$15k in consumption taxes. Total tax burden ~$46k.
For a US-based nomad with $100k income, paying US income taxes (~20% fed/state combined), that's $80k to spend and <$18k in total taxes.
$28,000 delta. That $28k is being spent on something (military, police, whatever). Maybe the nomad isn't using any services that the $28k delta is funding. I don't know. But, just on the rough math, a nomad pays less in tax than a resident.
I guess the real question is does a nomad use services more like a short-term tourist or more like a long-term resident? And does the consumption taxes paid end up as a positive or a negative? How long does a nomad have to reside in an area to consume enough services to need to pay income tax? I don't know the answer - I only know the nomad is absolutely paying less in total tax burden than a resident.
For a resident with $100,000 income... $31,000 in income taxes. Assuming no savings and all consumption taxed at 22%, that's ~$15k in consumption taxes. Total tax burden ~$46k.
For a US-based nomad with $100k income, paying US income taxes (~20% fed/state combined), that's $80k to spend and <$18k in total taxes.
$28,000 delta. That $28k is being spent on something (military, police, whatever). Maybe the nomad isn't using any services that the $28k delta is funding. I don't know. But, just on the rough math, a nomad pays less in tax than a resident.
I guess the real question is does a nomad use services more like a short-term tourist or more like a long-term resident? And does the consumption taxes paid end up as a positive or a negative? How long does a nomad have to reside in an area to consume enough services to need to pay income tax? I don't know the answer - I only know the nomad is absolutely paying less in total tax burden than a resident.
> And simply based on length of stay, a nomad is more likely to consume expensive services like medical care.
Unlikely. Age distribution of tourists is significantly older than nomads. Younger people require significantly less medical expenditure than older. Older people also take longer than average vacations.
Regardless, both nomads and tourists are generally covered by medical insurance.
Unlikely. Age distribution of tourists is significantly older than nomads. Younger people require significantly less medical expenditure than older. Older people also take longer than average vacations.
Regardless, both nomads and tourists are generally covered by medical insurance.
Tourists aren't that welcome anymore.
Tourists do things during the day, they dont sit behind a laptop all the time. They spend a lot of money each day then go home after a week or two.
Tourists do things during the day, they dont sit behind a laptop all the time. They spend a lot of money each day then go home after a week or two.
> They aren't part of the community, they dont pay taxes
If they buy things, they pay consumption taxes.
If they rent accommodations, they pay (indirectly) property taxes, and (depending on the particular accommodations) potentially extra short-term residency taxes.
Unless they are scofflaws, they probably also pay any applicablr income taxes, which most taxing jurisdictions levy on any income earned in the jurisdiction (which nomads are, for the duration of their stay).
If they buy things, they pay consumption taxes.
If they rent accommodations, they pay (indirectly) property taxes, and (depending on the particular accommodations) potentially extra short-term residency taxes.
Unless they are scofflaws, they probably also pay any applicablr income taxes, which most taxing jurisdictions levy on any income earned in the jurisdiction (which nomads are, for the duration of their stay).
They pay VAT at the very least
Everyone who works in the digital economy is avoiding taxes because of its nature. Nomads do it themselves, while big tech corporates do it for their workers.
curious what does and doesn't constitute "nomad". e.g. I was based in Thailand and traveled around a lot for 2 years, which probably constitutes "nomad".
but then I moved to Spain and have been there pretty steady for 2 years. I fit a lot of "nomad" traits, except for the key definition: I haven't moved around.
There's a blurry line between "expat" and "nomad".
but then I moved to Spain and have been there pretty steady for 2 years. I fit a lot of "nomad" traits, except for the key definition: I haven't moved around.
There's a blurry line between "expat" and "nomad".
There has been interview with one of the owner of coworking space in Bali and he mentioned most of the people living digital nomad lifestyle for few years (2-4). Looking at my friends I would agree and either they moved back home after ~2 years or settled somewhere abroad (turned expat).
What visa did you use in Thailand and/or Spain (assuming you don't have freedom of movement through your citizenship)
In this case it appears to constitute "using nomadlist".
On that note, any nomads here on HN willing to share how it's been?
Interestingly people have described me as a digital nomad but I don't consider myself one at all. I ticked most of the boxes in this list of "average" traits, except for the one about 69 days -- I usually stay much longer, couple years maybe, hence why I don't think of myself that way. It can be fun to see the world, but it comes with its own challenges, too.
I love it. Partner and I have been in a different city almost every month this year. Mostly mid west and east coast. We might settle down next year or do the same thing on the west coast.
The biggest issue so far is 90% of airbnbs say they have great wifi which turns out to be pretty shit wifi, or at least shit for two tech workers who are both having video calls at the same time during the day. A backup is pretty much required.
Yeah. I've gotten into the habit of asking hosts to send me their exact up/down. Even then, they often have wifi routers that are just awful, so I have to plug in via ethernet and share it from my laptop.
I'm so glad my unexpected nomad journey is coming to an end. :-)
I'm so glad my unexpected nomad journey is coming to an end. :-)
Do you guys work freelance or any company that is willing to have nomads on there payroll?
Genuine curious how you got into this lifestyle.
Genuine curious how you got into this lifestyle.
Kinda got the okay to move around during covid from past companies. We both have changed jobs since and said, "We've been doing this for over a year with no issue" and new companies were okay with it.
That’s really cool to hear. So just good communication!
Yeah. I think smaller companies and companies where you have some prior relationship or are willing to go contract to hire with are much more likely to allow this as well.
Do you have any specific questions?
> On that note, any nomads here on HN willing to share how it's been?
Preface: it's kind of scary to think you're a trope as this hit the mark for most things. But despite having spent many years in Boulder where I went biking and hiking extensively I still miss having proper gyms open as nothing will replace that feeling and routine for both my physical as well as mental health.
I've been in Croatia since May during the pandemic, and to be honest it really depends on what part you are in and the amount of friction you encounter. It was so much easier handling things in the South (Dalmatia) than it is in the North where I'm told I am the first Digital Nomad and I keep getting sent back for more processes.
It helped that my landlord worked in the tourist ministry in the South when I came in May, but overall this has been the most absurd experience I've had since I've been in this country and I first visited in 2012 before it entered the EU and it's made worse by the fact that they think they are upholding to EU standards somehow.
Things are as normal as they can be given the worries of the Delta variant and in the Southern tourist areas some clubs were trying to re-open but kept getting shutdown or were forced to do so on a curfew by police into late July, the restaurants had indoor and outdoor dining. Public transportation was available for the most part with pretty standard service. It was like 75% pre-covid.
Croatia is a tourist economy and things are starting to wind down so less things are open, but to be honest, other than the gyms I'm not to worried as I'm really not here to party it up like I had in previous years. I'm more interested in taking time to enjoy and absorb the culture that I fell in love with when I first starting traveling extensively when I was in my mid 20s.
FYI: I spent time this summer in Germany visiting a friend on a tourist visa not DN and I couldn't wait to get the hell back and return to Croatia because of the amount of needless bureaucracy that was obviously of no practical use other than forced compliance, however, in N. Croatia it's like they took the worst parts of Italy and made it somehow even worse and expect you to just keep coming back.
I'll spare you (some of) the details of all the bureaucratic things, but if anyone from YC hopes to come to Croatia stay in Dalmatia, or have a lawyer on standby--I met a local who was studying to be one at the police station and it was super useful. Dalamtia is not only favorite part of Croatia for food and cultural reasons but it's come to be my place to regain sanity despite all the chaos in the World. And they're opening a digital nomad village this weekend to prove why I love it there [0].
0: https://www.euronews.com/travel/2021/10/01/want-to-work-remo...
Preface: it's kind of scary to think you're a trope as this hit the mark for most things. But despite having spent many years in Boulder where I went biking and hiking extensively I still miss having proper gyms open as nothing will replace that feeling and routine for both my physical as well as mental health.
I've been in Croatia since May during the pandemic, and to be honest it really depends on what part you are in and the amount of friction you encounter. It was so much easier handling things in the South (Dalmatia) than it is in the North where I'm told I am the first Digital Nomad and I keep getting sent back for more processes.
It helped that my landlord worked in the tourist ministry in the South when I came in May, but overall this has been the most absurd experience I've had since I've been in this country and I first visited in 2012 before it entered the EU and it's made worse by the fact that they think they are upholding to EU standards somehow.
Things are as normal as they can be given the worries of the Delta variant and in the Southern tourist areas some clubs were trying to re-open but kept getting shutdown or were forced to do so on a curfew by police into late July, the restaurants had indoor and outdoor dining. Public transportation was available for the most part with pretty standard service. It was like 75% pre-covid.
Croatia is a tourist economy and things are starting to wind down so less things are open, but to be honest, other than the gyms I'm not to worried as I'm really not here to party it up like I had in previous years. I'm more interested in taking time to enjoy and absorb the culture that I fell in love with when I first starting traveling extensively when I was in my mid 20s.
FYI: I spent time this summer in Germany visiting a friend on a tourist visa not DN and I couldn't wait to get the hell back and return to Croatia because of the amount of needless bureaucracy that was obviously of no practical use other than forced compliance, however, in N. Croatia it's like they took the worst parts of Italy and made it somehow even worse and expect you to just keep coming back.
I'll spare you (some of) the details of all the bureaucratic things, but if anyone from YC hopes to come to Croatia stay in Dalmatia, or have a lawyer on standby--I met a local who was studying to be one at the police station and it was super useful. Dalamtia is not only favorite part of Croatia for food and cultural reasons but it's come to be my place to regain sanity despite all the chaos in the World. And they're opening a digital nomad village this weekend to prove why I love it there [0].
0: https://www.euronews.com/travel/2021/10/01/want-to-work-remo...
It's fascinating about the state of the nomads. I'm quite surprised that the average age of the nomads is 32. Also, isn't the most popular destination of nomads is Chiang Mai?
Curious to see centrists defined as a subset of non-progressives.
Not sure if the website publisher paused to think about the biasness of the dataset. This result and insights are as good as the data and sampling used, which IMHO is not great.
Huh. Surprised do see such low numbers for 40+ nomads. I would have thought the post-family-raising mid-life crisis would be the perfect kick starter for a nomadic career.
It angers me that they call out that most nomads are straight. They should have said that there are MORE LGBT folks who are nomads than the average in the USA.
5% are gay/lesbian, 9% are bi. Compare to these metrics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... -- that's a higher ratio than all but 3 states in the USA.
5% are gay/lesbian, 9% are bi. Compare to these metrics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... -- that's a higher ratio than all but 3 states in the USA.
Most nomads are straight, and the prompt was:
> Who is the average nomad?
While "nomads are disproportionately x, y, and z" would also be a great follow-up, "the average nomad" is separate and it's just as interesting to think about the archetype of 10,000 nomads put together!
I don't see why you would be angry at this.
> Who is the average nomad?
While "nomads are disproportionately x, y, and z" would also be a great follow-up, "the average nomad" is separate and it's just as interesting to think about the archetype of 10,000 nomads put together!
I don't see why you would be angry at this.
This is hardly something to get angry about.
Also, how is being in a relationship an attractive trait? Does that imply that nomads are mostly attracted to people who are in a relationship?