Ask HN: Been in the IT industry for 10 years with nothing to show for it
63 コメント
> When I was in college I really loved working on the console, I built great apps using the console, and I quite enjoyed what I was doing! We were learning C++ at the time, and working on the console made me think about my logic, my code, my idea, instead of sweating about the design, or how a button looks, or how to make text appear good on all screen sizes.
> I want to try out Native mobile development but I am not sure whether it would be the right choice for me or not.
You like writing native code? I am assuming, like most people in your country, you’ve got an Android phone. Become the master of native Android dev, which you’ll love because it allows you to leverage the stuff you used to enjoy. It’s totally free, just takes time. Once you’ve done this, you can build stuff that average people can use on a constant basis. That’s step 1.
Then, pick off ideas that are poorly translated for your local market or ignored, particularly in areas where foreign multinationals would either want to invest/buy what you made to add Iraq to their world domination map, or use the thing you made as an advertising channel into the young and growing population in your country. Consumer goods, financial services... there’s lots of categories. Test your apps and ideas on your dumbest relatives to get a sense for whether you’re building something “normal” people want.
Keep working those dead-end jobs while doing this. Get enough traction within your local area where foreign dollars can see how their added dollars would help you “capture the market in Iraq” for what you’re doing. Use that capital to grow and exit, then help others do the same, then keep doing it. Congratulations, you’ve become the Non-Evil version of the Samwer Brothers[1].
1: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/inside-the-clone-factory
> I want to try out Native mobile development but I am not sure whether it would be the right choice for me or not.
You like writing native code? I am assuming, like most people in your country, you’ve got an Android phone. Become the master of native Android dev, which you’ll love because it allows you to leverage the stuff you used to enjoy. It’s totally free, just takes time. Once you’ve done this, you can build stuff that average people can use on a constant basis. That’s step 1.
Then, pick off ideas that are poorly translated for your local market or ignored, particularly in areas where foreign multinationals would either want to invest/buy what you made to add Iraq to their world domination map, or use the thing you made as an advertising channel into the young and growing population in your country. Consumer goods, financial services... there’s lots of categories. Test your apps and ideas on your dumbest relatives to get a sense for whether you’re building something “normal” people want.
Keep working those dead-end jobs while doing this. Get enough traction within your local area where foreign dollars can see how their added dollars would help you “capture the market in Iraq” for what you’re doing. Use that capital to grow and exit, then help others do the same, then keep doing it. Congratulations, you’ve become the Non-Evil version of the Samwer Brothers[1].
1: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/inside-the-clone-factory
Honestly curious, isn't mobile work mostly about user interfaces? Doesn't seem like what OP is looking for.
Mobile work really isn't about user interfaces, it's about full application design. Both iOS and Android are platforms which allow you to code out most basic UI tasks "for free" in a way that doesn't really exist in web dev.
Complex UIs, of course, can be challenging and unpleasant to write, but one can make a career as a mobile developer spending a very small percentage of their time concerned about UI.
Complex UIs, of course, can be challenging and unpleasant to write, but one can make a career as a mobile developer spending a very small percentage of their time concerned about UI.
Mobile is the default interface through which non-technical people interact with the digital world. It’s the prerequisite for building products and services. If OP can master that and create stuff that fits the character of their local market, they will be able to transcend the life of a third-world salary person and have a chance to own entire markets.
Usually multinationals will establish a local office, often involving sending off some MBA type on a lavish vacation expedition, to get into a country/region. Due to perception reasons alone, I just don’t think the best talent in the world is easily motivated to move to Iraq. Even if Iraq is lumped into some “EMEA” office, it’s probably not a high priority getting tons of resources. OP has rare home court advantage. They should leverage it for maximum benefit, and then help improve the lives of others.
Usually multinationals will establish a local office, often involving sending off some MBA type on a lavish vacation expedition, to get into a country/region. Due to perception reasons alone, I just don’t think the best talent in the world is easily motivated to move to Iraq. Even if Iraq is lumped into some “EMEA” office, it’s probably not a high priority getting tons of resources. OP has rare home court advantage. They should leverage it for maximum benefit, and then help improve the lives of others.
I'd say mobile UI is like working with clay, while CSS is like working with sand. CSS was designed before mobile, so a lot of the hate comes from using a tool that's not for the right purposes.
You have to build different sites for web and mobile, often with the painful responsive frameworks. The results are inconsistent across different browsers. And then there's the flexbox. You have things like this just to fit stuff into a row: https://css-tricks.com/international-box-sizing-awareness-da...
Whereas for native, it's basically one design that works on all screens. Except maybe tablets, but it's not common to do a separate design for tablets.
You have to build different sites for web and mobile, often with the painful responsive frameworks. The results are inconsistent across different browsers. And then there's the flexbox. You have things like this just to fit stuff into a row: https://css-tricks.com/international-box-sizing-awareness-da...
Whereas for native, it's basically one design that works on all screens. Except maybe tablets, but it's not common to do a separate design for tablets.
Just curious what you expected to show for doing something for 10 years? Progress? Improvement? CEO of MAANG?
You repeatedly say "I am stuck". What does that mean to you?
What does "being proud of" something you've worked on, look like to you? I've been in this business for 26+ years and NOTHING I've done in my career, would qualify for being "proud of". What I AM proud of, is the person I've become, the relationships I've fostered, the children I've raised.
I get that this career choice can seem overwhelming at times. I've tried to specialize more than a few times, but it didn't work out. Primarily because I was chasing the money. In other words, doing what paid me and paid me well because I have a family to support.
Honestly what you've posted above, sounds so much larger than your career.
You repeatedly say "I am stuck". What does that mean to you?
What does "being proud of" something you've worked on, look like to you? I've been in this business for 26+ years and NOTHING I've done in my career, would qualify for being "proud of". What I AM proud of, is the person I've become, the relationships I've fostered, the children I've raised.
I get that this career choice can seem overwhelming at times. I've tried to specialize more than a few times, but it didn't work out. Primarily because I was chasing the money. In other words, doing what paid me and paid me well because I have a family to support.
Honestly what you've posted above, sounds so much larger than your career.
I've been working for about the same amount of time. My first job was right after high-school working in an office, where I was hired because I was fluent in a second language and they needed help translating documents. Slowly, during times when I was not busy, I fixed the office computers, redid the LAN setup, and built a Linux firewall to share an internet connection. I also built a CRM database on top of Microsoft Access that became central to everything the company did. About 10 years after I left I ran into an old coworker that was still there and they told me they still use that crazy Access DB.
When I found out, that moment was as close to being proud as I've ever been about something I've done in this IT field. There were other brief moments when my team has won some award, or I've given a talk at a conference and received positive feedback.
But all of this pales in comparison to me being proud of the spouse, parent, and friend that I am to people in my life today.
When I found out, that moment was as close to being proud as I've ever been about something I've done in this IT field. There were other brief moments when my team has won some award, or I've given a talk at a conference and received positive feedback.
But all of this pales in comparison to me being proud of the spouse, parent, and friend that I am to people in my life today.
You only graduated last year, the expectations for having achieved anything aren't that high. Just because you started coding 10 years ago, doesn't mean that you have 10 years of industry experience (or maybe you do and you haven't made that clear).
No great insight from me here, but you make it sound like you would much prefer to work on backend/server stuff.
A gateway to that might be full-stack, if it's not possible to directly transition to back-end developer.
Some people may view full-stack as "holding two jobs instead of one", but it doesn't necessarily have to feel like that.
You are 25, graduated last year and you think you have 10 years of experience since you are coding since 15 ? How much real world experience do you have ? Dabbling in code since 15 is good but that doesn't give you the experience to say "nothing to show for it". If anything, use that as a positive but you need to lower your expectations from yourself. You are inexperienced and have almost 0 real world experience.
Work on projects you want to use? I do that. They're nothing spectacular but I enjoy using them regularly. I use work as a source of income. I'm reasonably proud of the things I've done. But many work-projects are in some kind of buzz-word fever-dream or end up hitting the pan because of politics. I realised it's my own projects that I should be proud of.
There's a startup called Manara (YC W21) that connects engineers in the Middle East and North Africa with global tech companies.
Here's their Launch HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25849054
Here's their website: https://www.manara.tech
I wrote a little Twitter thread that contains tips for people who want to do consulting/freelancing that you might find useful in the meantime: https://twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/131066829330549965...
I am not unfamiliar with the government problems you describe, and I'd stay away from government work (whether that be getting a job in a state run entity or working on projects for government run entities).
What you can do to increase your revenue and get to a better place financially and mentally that affords you more options and the ability to think:
- Re-sell the product you built for one client to other clients in the same sector. Example: you built a static site for a pharmacy, make a bundle and go after pharmacies so the product is already made and you can close sales and generate revenue from the same code base.
- Find more clients: you can generally get a list of operators from the chamber of commerce or governing bodies for certain activities/professions. For example, you can get a list of all registered pharmacies and then sell your already-made product to them. Your pitch will be tuned because of all the conversations you'd have had with them.
- Build additional things for additional problems in their workflow to get a suite (either at the feature level, or in separate products).
- If what you built is for a role that's present in several sectors, target other sectors as well by targeting the roles as opposed to the sector, but it may make sense to focus on one sector at first.
- Charging more for your services: qualify clients, weed-out hagglers, continuously audit for what went well and what didn't and try to reproduce the good interactions/projects/clients.
- Improve your skills and tooling. (note that this is at the bottom of the list, but to be done as you do the above)
I'm available if you have questions along the way about product, people, engineering, hiring, sales, or you want to bounce off ideas or have problems. Contact information in my profile.
From Algeria, with love.
Here's their Launch HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25849054
Here's their website: https://www.manara.tech
I wrote a little Twitter thread that contains tips for people who want to do consulting/freelancing that you might find useful in the meantime: https://twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/131066829330549965...
I am not unfamiliar with the government problems you describe, and I'd stay away from government work (whether that be getting a job in a state run entity or working on projects for government run entities).
What you can do to increase your revenue and get to a better place financially and mentally that affords you more options and the ability to think:
- Re-sell the product you built for one client to other clients in the same sector. Example: you built a static site for a pharmacy, make a bundle and go after pharmacies so the product is already made and you can close sales and generate revenue from the same code base.
- Find more clients: you can generally get a list of operators from the chamber of commerce or governing bodies for certain activities/professions. For example, you can get a list of all registered pharmacies and then sell your already-made product to them. Your pitch will be tuned because of all the conversations you'd have had with them.
- Build additional things for additional problems in their workflow to get a suite (either at the feature level, or in separate products).
- If what you built is for a role that's present in several sectors, target other sectors as well by targeting the roles as opposed to the sector, but it may make sense to focus on one sector at first.
- Charging more for your services: qualify clients, weed-out hagglers, continuously audit for what went well and what didn't and try to reproduce the good interactions/projects/clients.
- Improve your skills and tooling. (note that this is at the bottom of the list, but to be done as you do the above)
I'm available if you have questions along the way about product, people, engineering, hiring, sales, or you want to bounce off ideas or have problems. Contact information in my profile.
From Algeria, with love.
> When I was in college I really loved working on the console, I built great apps using the console, and I quite enjoyed what I was doing!
Having written programs for nearly 40 years, I have found that there is a balance to be found, and continuously re-found, between what you love and what will pay. The happiest and most productive programmers I know don't focus just on what will pay, but also on what keeps them interested. This usually involves compromises.
Admittedly I live in a very different place than Iraq, but perhaps that just means the details of those compromises will be different for you.
Also, I think it's a mistake to specialize too early, unless you find something that you really love and can make money with it. Don't be afraid to try things, put them down for awhile, and try them again a few months or years later. Follow your interests for your personal work, try to meet your clients' needs in your paid work, ignore the BS as much as you can, and it can be a satisfying career.
[edit: fix typo]
Having written programs for nearly 40 years, I have found that there is a balance to be found, and continuously re-found, between what you love and what will pay. The happiest and most productive programmers I know don't focus just on what will pay, but also on what keeps them interested. This usually involves compromises.
Admittedly I live in a very different place than Iraq, but perhaps that just means the details of those compromises will be different for you.
Also, I think it's a mistake to specialize too early, unless you find something that you really love and can make money with it. Don't be afraid to try things, put them down for awhile, and try them again a few months or years later. Follow your interests for your personal work, try to meet your clients' needs in your paid work, ignore the BS as much as you can, and it can be a satisfying career.
[edit: fix typo]
>> making a site responsive really really is something I hate
You're probably frustrated because you think css or mastery in general should take less time. If a person thinks a journey will take 30 minutes and it takes 30 minutes, their mood is unchanged, but if they think a journey will take 10 minutes and it takes 30 minutes, they are enormously irritated.
You're probably frustrated because you think css or mastery in general should take less time. If a person thinks a journey will take 30 minutes and it takes 30 minutes, their mood is unchanged, but if they think a journey will take 10 minutes and it takes 30 minutes, they are enormously irritated.
Have you considered switching to a different path in programming? Improve your skills in a different area, and then find a job in it.
As for jobs, check out Dot Jobs, it's a popular Telegram channel in Iraq where many companies post their job offers
https://t.me/dotjobs
But that isn't enough by itself, you need to get your name known and make connections. There's a hidden group on FB called IQDevs where many employees from the biggest tech companies in Iraq (like Earthlink, Qi, etc) talk, network, and share advice. You'll need to figure out a way to join that, but I'm not sure how since it's hard to get invited there.
Best of luck.
As for jobs, check out Dot Jobs, it's a popular Telegram channel in Iraq where many companies post their job offers
https://t.me/dotjobs
But that isn't enough by itself, you need to get your name known and make connections. There's a hidden group on FB called IQDevs where many employees from the biggest tech companies in Iraq (like Earthlink, Qi, etc) talk, network, and share advice. You'll need to figure out a way to join that, but I'm not sure how since it's hard to get invited there.
Best of luck.
Dear friend.
Perhaps the whole problem is in finding a decent idea for the project. Your own idea, not someone else's. It may be worth studying more about the needs of people in your country.
For example, I am 49 years old and 4 years ago I started learning Python without having any knowledge of computer science. Absolutely none! But I have so many ideas that I just wanted to self-study and implement what I have been wanting for so long.
I wish for you to find yourself in this world of user needs.
You might want to get into Open Source. You can build your backend programming skill set and your portfolio with meaningful patches to projects that are used by companies around the world.
Two things that may seem a bit tangential at first but relate to how you're thinking about your life.
First, having "nothing to be proud of" is not necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps you simply have high expectations for yourself. This is a good thing. You will always be striving to improve your craft and the things you create.
Second, not to sound harsh, but the stuff you did as a kid doesn't really matter to prospective employers beyond "he's pretty passionate about programming". In a few years, your college projects won't matter much either. This is just how it is.
Finally, you're only 25 and 1 year out of university. No one expects that you have accomplished anything! Combine this impression with your past projects to emphasize how you are willing and able to learn the practical aspects of software development on your own. That you are enjoy tackling new problems and exploring the unknown. And finally, that you not only toy around but actually deliver products too!
First, having "nothing to be proud of" is not necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps you simply have high expectations for yourself. This is a good thing. You will always be striving to improve your craft and the things you create.
Second, not to sound harsh, but the stuff you did as a kid doesn't really matter to prospective employers beyond "he's pretty passionate about programming". In a few years, your college projects won't matter much either. This is just how it is.
Finally, you're only 25 and 1 year out of university. No one expects that you have accomplished anything! Combine this impression with your past projects to emphasize how you are willing and able to learn the practical aspects of software development on your own. That you are enjoy tackling new problems and exploring the unknown. And finally, that you not only toy around but actually deliver products too!
I was in a similar space. Feel free to email me if you'd like to talk more.
I'd say stick with it, especially when it seems tough. I thought tech was a dead end job. But the less jobs there are, the less people do it. The less people do it, the more valuable the skill set is when the jobs finally happen.
Tech is inevitable. Spreadsheets replace paper. CRUD replaces spreadsheets. It'll happen, the question is how long it takes. What's happening in SE Asia is a kind of tech "colonialism", where companies try to build local. Iraq has people, it has a market. It has problems that can be solved more efficiently with code, even if it's say, used cars or dating.
Native mobile is good, but basically, you want to be able to do CRUD. That might mean React Native or Flutter work. The native jobs pay a lot better, because they're usually solving bigger problems at scale.
I'd say stick with it, especially when it seems tough. I thought tech was a dead end job. But the less jobs there are, the less people do it. The less people do it, the more valuable the skill set is when the jobs finally happen.
Tech is inevitable. Spreadsheets replace paper. CRUD replaces spreadsheets. It'll happen, the question is how long it takes. What's happening in SE Asia is a kind of tech "colonialism", where companies try to build local. Iraq has people, it has a market. It has problems that can be solved more efficiently with code, even if it's say, used cars or dating.
Native mobile is good, but basically, you want to be able to do CRUD. That might mean React Native or Flutter work. The native jobs pay a lot better, because they're usually solving bigger problems at scale.
Just to give you some perspective, I'm 24, have been coding for 6 years, got my first real job recently and I don't have much to show for it except my current job. That's fine by me. If you can already make a living, sometimes the hard part is to sit back and relax, and enjoy life.
The only thing that I'm really proud of is a small Go application (90 lines of code) that automates some manual work for my mother. Almost anybody could have written it, it's not complex at all. I could have written it when I was 15, and certainly didn't need 5 years (that actually took 8) years of studying for this. But I did write it, and now she spends less time doing tedious manual work. It really makes me proud. Way more than getting a master's degree, way more than getting a job, way more than doing good at my job.
The only thing that I'm really proud of is a small Go application (90 lines of code) that automates some manual work for my mother. Almost anybody could have written it, it's not complex at all. I could have written it when I was 15, and certainly didn't need 5 years (that actually took 8) years of studying for this. But I did write it, and now she spends less time doing tedious manual work. It really makes me proud. Way more than getting a master's degree, way more than getting a job, way more than doing good at my job.
I am 33 with nothing to show for it (yet), keep at it.
Im not sure what people mean with this. Take the original poster: he mentioned he has done some mobile apps and misc stuff. He feels that some of their work doesn't count because he has been "copying and pasting" .
What a lot of those projects show is the ability to get shit done. He has a BSc in CS. If you've got something similar it's a bug plus.
I have lost count of people that fail in parts of my interviews because they are too proud or scared to google for answwrs6 (after I specifically tell them that the problem is designed so that they have to search for some concepts).
I think what happens is that for a lot of us the imposter syndrome is very strong. Particularly if you frequent Hacker News, day after day you will see the 13 year old showing that made a PAXOS implementation in his new Codecademy clone during the weekend.
The reality is that HN is an echo chamber, where people are showing their best. Dont get me wrong it's really cool to see those projects but in real life, a "mediocre" HN coder is actually quite competent.
It's like how people get depressed because they see a stream of their contacts happy life on Facebook. Everyone is on vacation or celebrating some achievement. That's a distorted view of their life. And same happens in LinkedIn and any other network.
What a lot of those projects show is the ability to get shit done. He has a BSc in CS. If you've got something similar it's a bug plus.
I have lost count of people that fail in parts of my interviews because they are too proud or scared to google for answwrs6 (after I specifically tell them that the problem is designed so that they have to search for some concepts).
I think what happens is that for a lot of us the imposter syndrome is very strong. Particularly if you frequent Hacker News, day after day you will see the 13 year old showing that made a PAXOS implementation in his new Codecademy clone during the weekend.
The reality is that HN is an echo chamber, where people are showing their best. Dont get me wrong it's really cool to see those projects but in real life, a "mediocre" HN coder is actually quite competent.
It's like how people get depressed because they see a stream of their contacts happy life on Facebook. Everyone is on vacation or celebrating some achievement. That's a distorted view of their life. And same happens in LinkedIn and any other network.
Truly, many people feel they're stuck in their career, even those I'd consider successful. Other times they feel great.
Like many have already said, set specific goals and work at them.
E.g. * build an app that does what you need. * try a startup that requires minimal investment to setup * start a FOSS application * get a remote job where you can actually do backend work...e.t.c.
The struggle to achieve your goals will keep your life exciting... Of course, there'd be failures and successes but it's all an adventure at the end of the day.
Like many have already said, set specific goals and work at them.
E.g. * build an app that does what you need. * try a startup that requires minimal investment to setup * start a FOSS application * get a remote job where you can actually do backend work...e.t.c.
The struggle to achieve your goals will keep your life exciting... Of course, there'd be failures and successes but it's all an adventure at the end of the day.
If I were you I would do what our working student from Iraq did. Enroll in a German university without tuition fee, do some freelance / working student job on the side until you can turn your student VISA into a normal one.
> I live in a third world country (Iraq to be specific), the city I live in almost has no software-based startups / companies, also goverment work in IT is very very very difficult to get due to the amount of corruption there is
Uh... get out. You'll find infinite opportunities elsewhere.
Uh... get out. You'll find infinite opportunities elsewhere.
It sounds like you just don’t enjoy frontend work. If you are trying to build a product on your own it’s impossible to avoid, but there are plenty of companies in the EU and US hiring for backend developers. Understanding how both sides get work done is important, but there is nothing wrong with focusing on just one area.
>> really really is something I hate
With such attitude you either should switch away from dev completely or suck it up and start setting specific goals and learning to enjoy the process.
One example of a good goal - find a fulltime remote job in a good tech company.
Another — run away from corrupted country and start a new professional life somewhere else.
With such attitude you either should switch away from dev completely or suck it up and start setting specific goals and learning to enjoy the process.
One example of a good goal - find a fulltime remote job in a good tech company.
Another — run away from corrupted country and start a new professional life somewhere else.
> With such attitude you either should switch away from dev completely or suck it up and start setting specific goals and learning to enjoy the process
Why? I hate frontend too after having done 'fullstack' for over 30 years and I wish I never did (could've spent my time optimizing my skills; which I am doing now). I think it is good to recognize this and focus on the things you like; for me: backend and embedded. Enough really well paid work is there anyway without the frontend stuff.
Why? I hate frontend too after having done 'fullstack' for over 30 years and I wish I never did (could've spent my time optimizing my skills; which I am doing now). I think it is good to recognize this and focus on the things you like; for me: backend and embedded. Enough really well paid work is there anyway without the frontend stuff.
I don't like frontend either, but I'm not wining emotionally about it on forums.
So my comment was provocative intentionally, to make OP take a bit wider perspective.
So my comment was provocative intentionally, to make OP take a bit wider perspective.
> I'm not wining emotionally about it on forums
No, instead you're whining on forums about people "wining" on forums.
Which is much less productive than seeking career advice.
No, instead you're whining on forums about people "wining" on forums.
Which is much less productive than seeking career advice.
> With such attitude you either should switch away from dev completely or suck it up
Talk about attitude!
You talk like the front end web quagmire is the only kind of dev there is.
And you talk like it's easy to just up and leave your country.
And you talk like your politicians aren't just as corrupt. As if they weren't responsible for the state Iraq is in.
but...
There is one kernel of good advice there, though: remote work is awesome and there's lots of it out there, particularly if you're skilled. If you're struggling to find local work that you like, maybe try to find something remote?
OP: I think based on what you've said, you should forget front end web dev, it's horrible in every way. Find something you like. Backend and devops is good, IMO. I saw someone else suggest native android, you might enjoy that. The trick is to find something that's in demand that's enjoyable (or at least tolerable) and be awesome at it. If you've got a keyboard and an internet connection you have everything you need to be a dev.
I remember being your age. It felt like I had been working hard and getting nowhere for ages. But the truth is that I had been taking small steps the whole time. Gradually learning stuff and improving my skills (and there's more to a career than just technical skills). Things change constantly, but they just never quite seem to change exactly how we'd like or as fast as we'd like. I think you just have to learn to be chill with that to some extent. And to stick at it.
Talk about attitude!
You talk like the front end web quagmire is the only kind of dev there is.
And you talk like it's easy to just up and leave your country.
And you talk like your politicians aren't just as corrupt. As if they weren't responsible for the state Iraq is in.
but...
There is one kernel of good advice there, though: remote work is awesome and there's lots of it out there, particularly if you're skilled. If you're struggling to find local work that you like, maybe try to find something remote?
OP: I think based on what you've said, you should forget front end web dev, it's horrible in every way. Find something you like. Backend and devops is good, IMO. I saw someone else suggest native android, you might enjoy that. The trick is to find something that's in demand that's enjoyable (or at least tolerable) and be awesome at it. If you've got a keyboard and an internet connection you have everything you need to be a dev.
I remember being your age. It felt like I had been working hard and getting nowhere for ages. But the truth is that I had been taking small steps the whole time. Gradually learning stuff and improving my skills (and there's more to a career than just technical skills). Things change constantly, but they just never quite seem to change exactly how we'd like or as fast as we'd like. I think you just have to learn to be chill with that to some extent. And to stick at it.
My comment was intentionally a bit provocative, but since you replied...
>> And you talk like it's easy to just up and leave your country
When you're programmer and you're 25 it is. Even with a family.
>> And you talk like your politicians aren't just as corrupt. As if they weren't responsible for the state Iraq is in.
No matter what's the answer — this is a reactive victim's position, looking for external excuse to own problems.
This is the last thing that could help OP right now. If he really wants to change something, of course.
>> And you talk like it's easy to just up and leave your country
When you're programmer and you're 25 it is. Even with a family.
>> And you talk like your politicians aren't just as corrupt. As if they weren't responsible for the state Iraq is in.
No matter what's the answer — this is a reactive victim's position, looking for external excuse to own problems.
This is the last thing that could help OP right now. If he really wants to change something, of course.
> When you're programmer and you're 25 it is. Even with a family.
Just out of curiosity, which country are you originally from, and where have you moved to? Because I too live in a third world country, and it's not easy to do at all. The rich "West" has put huge barriers on immigration (which is their right and I respect that), and only the very best (or rich) can move there though education or work visas. The mediocre one among us (like me) have no chance at all.
I can always move to another poor shithole, of course… that's easy, but pointless.
Just out of curiosity, which country are you originally from, and where have you moved to? Because I too live in a third world country, and it's not easy to do at all. The rich "West" has put huge barriers on immigration (which is their right and I respect that), and only the very best (or rich) can move there though education or work visas. The mediocre one among us (like me) have no chance at all.
I can always move to another poor shithole, of course… that's easy, but pointless.
I echo this. I have really good stats but most richer countries are hostile to immigrants. Even if you get past that barrier, many are hostile to Muslims, Muslim lifestyles, or middle eastern people.
I respect people who emigrate. Much of the time you risk being in a worse position, which is why it's usually the hardcore poor who emigrate. A lot of working visas also don't allow the spouse to work or don't allow part time jobs. Many employers expect you to "do the calculations", which is basically they'll pay whatever they do, and you figure out how to live with it.
I respect people who emigrate. Much of the time you risk being in a worse position, which is why it's usually the hardcore poor who emigrate. A lot of working visas also don't allow the spouse to work or don't allow part time jobs. Many employers expect you to "do the calculations", which is basically they'll pay whatever they do, and you figure out how to live with it.
Check Canada, although there're plenty job relocation opportunities for good programmers in many european countries, afaik.
You didn't answer the question. Maybe you forgot.
I'm curious about this too, so I'll just paste the question here again for you:
which country are you originally from, and where have you moved to?
I'm curious about this too, so I'll just paste the question here again for you:
which country are you originally from, and where have you moved to?
>When you're programmer and you're 25 it is. Even with a family.
That's a hell of an assumption. You don't know anything about this person's circumstances. Maybe he has a sick parent who can't travel with him. Perhaps he can't afford to travel because he has to pay for medication because a bomb you paid for injured his brother. Likely he'd encounter the kind of immigration issues mentioned by 5e92cb50239222b. Or perhaps he just feels at home in Iraq and isn't the type who would cope well moving to another place. I could give you fifty possible reasons without breaking a sweat.
> No matter what's the answer — this is a reactive victim's position, looking for external excuse to own problems.
What? This makes no sense. Maybe your english isn't great. It seems that you're trying to victim-blame? After your leaders bombed the shit out of his country? And then your advice was "get out of that shithole"? Is this intentional cynicism, trolling, or what?
I note that you completely failed to address the point I made, which is your complicity in the creation of OP's "corrupt" country. Interesting how you were so quick to judge his country but also so quick to shut down discussion about your own.
> This is the last thing that could help OP right now.
Then why did you bring it up?
> If he really wants to change something, of course.
What would cause you to doubt that he does?
That's a hell of an assumption. You don't know anything about this person's circumstances. Maybe he has a sick parent who can't travel with him. Perhaps he can't afford to travel because he has to pay for medication because a bomb you paid for injured his brother. Likely he'd encounter the kind of immigration issues mentioned by 5e92cb50239222b. Or perhaps he just feels at home in Iraq and isn't the type who would cope well moving to another place. I could give you fifty possible reasons without breaking a sweat.
> No matter what's the answer — this is a reactive victim's position, looking for external excuse to own problems.
What? This makes no sense. Maybe your english isn't great. It seems that you're trying to victim-blame? After your leaders bombed the shit out of his country? And then your advice was "get out of that shithole"? Is this intentional cynicism, trolling, or what?
I note that you completely failed to address the point I made, which is your complicity in the creation of OP's "corrupt" country. Interesting how you were so quick to judge his country but also so quick to shut down discussion about your own.
> This is the last thing that could help OP right now.
Then why did you bring it up?
> If he really wants to change something, of course.
What would cause you to doubt that he does?
Successful dev here, I hate CSS too.
Find a niche that doesn't require CSS or requires it less often. I write tools and cloud automation.
Find a niche that doesn't require CSS or requires it less often. I write tools and cloud automation.
There’s so much more than UI: back ends, database, IO layers and so on. You might even look into physical network and telecom. Those still require a lot of configuration and logic, which is essentially what all CS grads have been trained in.
It is better to work with US/European companies, I have had more success in term of developing my skills and getting real world projects when working with this type of clients, and the pay is better as well.
Front ends also have back ends and not everything has to be developed by a full stack developer. A lot of back end work is going to involve APIs and data management, so consider work in those areas.
I also struggle with CSS, but I enjoyed Java for Android. I need to learn Kotlin next. I'd say give it a try and see how you like it.
This is a good point. I've been playing with android dev for the last month. The UI layout is nice for us "backend" types. Just make sure you stay in the XML view.
My advice: move to the Gulf if you can. You'll have more opportunities.
For native app development you might want to try Flutter.
Don't try to build anything to show it off. Work on things that interest you the most and share these instead.
Don't try to build anything to show it off. Work on things that interest you the most and share these instead.
The IT industry is vast, and there are hundreds of different kinds of programming jobs, not to mention other jobs in IT.
The first thing I'd do if I were you is start mapping out some of what's out there. Start by looking at job boards and look at every single position listed for IT. You may not understand the titles or what is involved. Maybe it doesn't look interesting, or it looks difficult. Just map it all out anyway, and consider how many openings for a given position there are. Then start researching those positions to find out what's involved to get one. Since you're in Iraq, I would focus on positions that can be done remotely. But there may be many positions in your country going unfilled for niche jobs.
There are other jobs that won't show up on job boards, and you can find out about these the more you learn about the IT world. Network with different IT groups, talk to different folks, learn what's out there that isn't on a job board. Networking is the best way to get hired. You can do this on message boards, mailing lists, Discords, IRC, meet-ups, etc.
Even though you've spent a lot of time on programming, it's not too late to switch to something else. Maybe you enjoy working with people more than the kind of coding you'd get paid for. Maybe you're interested in systems. Maybe tech in general is just horrible and you would be happier with something with low hours, not a lot of expertise, and a big paycheck. Maybe you just want to freelance but in a different field of programming. There's a lot more options than you might think.
One way to be exposed to a lot of positions is to get employed by a massive company (remotely, let's say), and slowly work your way into different positions internally. Some don't have much lateral flexibility, but some have tons. This can give you job security while you learn a new skill. You can also learn different human languages, and become valuable by being able to work on projects that span the globe.
But my main point is this: there is a lot more out there than just making websites or mobile apps. A lot. And you are very young still, with all the time in the world to go a new direction.
The first thing I'd do if I were you is start mapping out some of what's out there. Start by looking at job boards and look at every single position listed for IT. You may not understand the titles or what is involved. Maybe it doesn't look interesting, or it looks difficult. Just map it all out anyway, and consider how many openings for a given position there are. Then start researching those positions to find out what's involved to get one. Since you're in Iraq, I would focus on positions that can be done remotely. But there may be many positions in your country going unfilled for niche jobs.
There are other jobs that won't show up on job boards, and you can find out about these the more you learn about the IT world. Network with different IT groups, talk to different folks, learn what's out there that isn't on a job board. Networking is the best way to get hired. You can do this on message boards, mailing lists, Discords, IRC, meet-ups, etc.
Even though you've spent a lot of time on programming, it's not too late to switch to something else. Maybe you enjoy working with people more than the kind of coding you'd get paid for. Maybe you're interested in systems. Maybe tech in general is just horrible and you would be happier with something with low hours, not a lot of expertise, and a big paycheck. Maybe you just want to freelance but in a different field of programming. There's a lot more options than you might think.
One way to be exposed to a lot of positions is to get employed by a massive company (remotely, let's say), and slowly work your way into different positions internally. Some don't have much lateral flexibility, but some have tons. This can give you job security while you learn a new skill. You can also learn different human languages, and become valuable by being able to work on projects that span the globe.
But my main point is this: there is a lot more out there than just making websites or mobile apps. A lot. And you are very young still, with all the time in the world to go a new direction.
crate_barre(3)
DESCLAIMER: This post can be quite long for some people, and I get it if no one wants to read it, but I would be grateful if you don't downvote me, maybe someone who's actually willing to help might see and answer me, because quite honestly I've been stuck in a terrible rut and I need some professional help.
Some Information About Me, I am 25 years old, and I live in a third world country (Iraq to be specific), the city I live in almost has no software-based startups / companies, also goverment work in IT is very very very difficult to get due to the amount of corruption there is, what I am currently doing is some freelance work, sometimes a client comes and wants a very basic static website, and I build it for them (Using a premade template from ThemeForest, because I am not a UI/UX designer). Sometimes a client requires a mobile app, so I stich together an app by following tutorials here and there, even though most of my stuff works, they are by no means professionally made, nor scalable or maintainable, I just need to do these jobs in order to get some cash flowing on, otherwise I would have nothing to depend on. I have gotten my CS degree last year when I was 24, and currently I have a BSc in CS. I have been coding 10 years ago, but to this date I haven't built something that I can be proud of!
I am stuck in a rut trying to specialize in a niche and keep on improving myself on that particular area.
I have tried Frontend Web Development but quite honestly I really hate working with CSS, it's not the syntax that I struggle with, it's the fact that making a site responsive really really is something I hate, I mostly hate working with UIs.
When I was in college I really loved working on the console, I built great apps using the console, and I quite enjoyed what I was doing! We were learning C++ at the time, and working on the console made me think about my logic, my code, my idea, instead of sweating about the design, or how a button looks, or how to make text appear good on all screen sizes.
I want to try out Native mobile development but I am not sure whether it would be the right choice for me or not.
I am stuck, and there's so much on my mind that I want to speak here but I can't explain them easily without going too much into the details.
I really want a hand guys, and would be willing to answer or comment on any ideas or questions you might have!
EDIT: Sometimes I also think coding might not be for me aswell! Maybe I made the wrong choice, but there are times that I enjoy coding, especially when someone gives me a problem or an assignment to solve.