Ask HN: How can I help people defeat depression?
I lost a friend who had been struggling for awhile today. Does anyone know how I can use my effort (like in say, software development, or machine learning/AI, or maybe neuroscience) to help people with their struggles/problems, like depression?
56 comments
Get them active outdoors (high-intensity exercise creates BDNF [1], which is like miracle-grow for the brain [2]), get them writing (provides an outlet for trapped thoughts cycling around in their head), get them to make something (among other things, it shifts their focus from the past to a future they are actively involved in shaping) [3], and get them physically involved with helping others who are less fortunate (compassionate acts give perspective and help reframe the mind) .
1. Brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-derived_neurotrophic_fac...
2. SPARK: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain http://www.johnratey.com/Books.php
3. "When You Are Depressed, Make Something." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13365430
1. Brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-derived_neurotrophic_fac...
2. SPARK: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain http://www.johnratey.com/Books.php
3. "When You Are Depressed, Make Something." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13365430
For a "get them writing" idea, I'd personally love a secure, cross-platform (including different mobile and desktop platforms, though I'd be happy with iOS/Mac OS for starters), journaling app that syncs without using a service that's proprietary to the app. I like Day One (http://dayoneapp.com), but hate that it's not properly encrypted and that it uses their proprietary service. What I think I want is the functionality of Day One with the sync options and security of 1Password. That would give me the confidence to pour my head into a daily journal. And, as far as I know, it doesn't exist.
Edit: Hm. I googled a little after posting and realized that my comment about Day One not being "properly encrypted" might be incorrect. It was based upon my experience with v1 of Day One. It looks like v2 added encryption and it was further improved with v2.1--though I can't speak to the strength of their implementation and can't find anyone who claims to have audited it. And they still only appear to support their own sync service.
Edit: Hm. I googled a little after posting and realized that my comment about Day One not being "properly encrypted" might be incorrect. It was based upon my experience with v1 of Day One. It looks like v2 added encryption and it was further improved with v2.1--though I can't speak to the strength of their implementation and can't find anyone who claims to have audited it. And they still only appear to support their own sync service.
I agree. DayOne is terrific, but I am really not happy to have the NSA vacuuming up my entries.
Where do you see that the latest version added encryption? The most recent info I've seen is the blog entries from May 2016 http://dayoneapp.com/2016/05/end-to-end-encryption-for-day-o...
and August 2016 http://dayoneapp.com/2016/08/encryption-update/
Where do you see that the latest version added encryption? The most recent info I've seen is the blog entries from May 2016 http://dayoneapp.com/2016/05/end-to-end-encryption-for-day-o...
and August 2016 http://dayoneapp.com/2016/08/encryption-update/
I'd like to plug https://syncthing.net for this; it syncs between your computers without copying things into The Cloud™.
As for the notes…maybe nvAlt? http://brettterpstra.com/projects/nvalt/
As for the notes…maybe nvAlt? http://brettterpstra.com/projects/nvalt/
Or for simplicity (and somewhat for warantless search protection...) a diary?
I have had a one but long period of depression in the past where everything was dark. Dark as hell. Retrospectively I can say, by far the thigs that help the most are just someone listening. Listening the other who needs it and in a 10% maybe help them by reframing them and put in perspective their view. It is a really difficult job. Second something that helped me a lot was CBT online by using Lantern, it helps you see things differently and chat with a therapist all day long, personally I trusted my couch there way more than any of the 3 therapist I saw personally, they sucked. Lastly the best thing that helped me get back to my real better me was to become useful. That means do create stuff on the side (a useful startup with paying customers) and get a job in the terms I always wanted earning well (remote consultant). In my case money played a big role. Also as soon as possible get the best gym you can. I tried 5 gyms and some sucked, other were good, but I as soon as I bought the most expensive one, it was by far the best desicion I have made. Last but no lease, it might be stupid but something that impacted a lot for the better was upgrading my work tools to the best one on the market, I bought a nice big monitor and ordered all my workspace. This improved my mood a lot instead of a the tiny little screen of my Mac, not recommended for 15+ work day. I forgot, try reducing sugars and carbs. Hope this helps someone. There is a escape. Get in touch with me if needed. g at black dot uy
How much did the best gym cost? I was previously looking at one $150/month, but that's obviously too much for someone with no income.
Well it doesn't matter how much it cost but how makes you feel. You will spot it instantly.mine is like equinox on the US. It cost 150 too. It was the best desviación I made as well as upgrading my workspace.
What people lack these days is community. Building an excellent community will allow people with problems like depression to find support.
The researchers polled 1,018 depressed patients in 90 randomized community- and clinic-based programs. The community-based approaches--in such places as churches, senior centers, and barber shops--worked best at improving mental-health quality of life, increasing physical activity, reducing homelessness risk factors, and getting more people to seek hospital and primary physician care. [1]
[1] http://www.rand.org/news/press/2013/06/25.html
The researchers polled 1,018 depressed patients in 90 randomized community- and clinic-based programs. The community-based approaches--in such places as churches, senior centers, and barber shops--worked best at improving mental-health quality of life, increasing physical activity, reducing homelessness risk factors, and getting more people to seek hospital and primary physician care. [1]
[1] http://www.rand.org/news/press/2013/06/25.html
* Having someone that is able to listen and relate too is very important, especially someone you can build a relationship on that genuinely cares.
* Having a purpose. depression is sometimes based on the fact that the person has no purpose, no one to impress, no one that needs/appreciate the help they can give.
* Having a method where people can meet and build small common goals for the day/week in smaller groups (5 or less) would really help.
* Exercise, healthy eating and creativity.
* A job = some sort of purpose, so employment.
* Getting a routine.
* Sun/Vitamin D
* Building a positive and useful environment around themselves.
* Being part of something that has some meaning, like if they would not attend/be there it will not advance without them. This makes them important and the feeling of having a purpose to get out of bed.
* Anything that makes you laugh.
* Having a purpose. depression is sometimes based on the fact that the person has no purpose, no one to impress, no one that needs/appreciate the help they can give.
* Having a method where people can meet and build small common goals for the day/week in smaller groups (5 or less) would really help.
* Exercise, healthy eating and creativity.
* A job = some sort of purpose, so employment.
* Getting a routine.
* Sun/Vitamin D
* Building a positive and useful environment around themselves.
* Being part of something that has some meaning, like if they would not attend/be there it will not advance without them. This makes them important and the feeling of having a purpose to get out of bed.
* Anything that makes you laugh.
I too had someone very close lose a battle with depression. I've been working on ideas on my own to try and come up with something useful. This is my most recent attempt: http://www.zerotoaction.com
I'd love to team up or discuss ideas with you and anyone interested. It's a topic that's very important to me. This is my first post/comment, please forgive me if I broke protocol in any way. Critiques and suggestions are welcome.
Based on what I see you doing there, I think you'd appreciate the concepts presented by 'Science Of Mind' Church of Religious Science. They've got a good (albiet long) book called 'Science of Mind' by Earnest Holmes. The churches have classes where affirmation-based 'Spiritual Mind Treatment' techniques are taught.
Thank you very much for the suggestion. I never heard of Earnest Holmes before and I bought the book to learn more.
[deleted]
Thanks for sharing your project. It looks interesting. Be sure to let us know when you formally launch with a "Show HN" post.
I'll definitely look into doing a "Show HN" post once ready. Thank you for your feedback and suggestion!
I wonder if some kind of chatbot therapist would help. It would have to be somehow preloaded with actual good things to say. Maybe you could get real therapists to volunteer various answers.
It's not ideal, but many people are in desperate situations. Not everyone can afford $100 an hour for a therapist.
And there's something to be said for someone who just listens. I remember hearing a story decades ago about a man who put an ad in the classifieds: "Will listen without comment for 20 minutes for $20." He got a lot of calls!
It's not ideal, but many people are in desperate situations. Not everyone can afford $100 an hour for a therapist.
And there's something to be said for someone who just listens. I remember hearing a story decades ago about a man who put an ad in the classifieds: "Will listen without comment for 20 minutes for $20." He got a lot of calls!
There was an early chatbot that did something less sophisticated than this, called ELIZA. It mostly repeated back what the user typed in a question form, but the typing of thoughts was cathartic enough for people to use it for long sessions
You can't just treat depression with games etc, for people that are depressed and fall into depression it goes way deeper than you think. Whenever, I have into depression I block all the negative news, I watch funny ideas, comedy , hanging out with friends, family, my little nephew and my dog. Also, coding and doing math helps me a lot. However, hanging out with my little nephew give me back that purpose to continue and work hard so I can make his life better
> can't just treat depression with games etc
*ie: those with the energy to stick with it, and an interest in travel
Can help: Medication (SSRIs, SSNRIs), therapy, meditation, exercise, close relationships
Can hurt: lack of sleep, alcohol, stress, traumatic/emotional events
Can hurt: lack of sleep, alcohol, stress, traumatic/emotional events
Drugs have a very dark side and can definitely hurt, I would not think it's a balanced, modern, medical perspective recommend these without serious consideration!
Can confirm, after gaining 30 KG in a year from medications, BUT it's worse off of them. Not having money in the family, not having for basic things that my peers have, not being able to find work... I feel trapped in my situation and everybody says wait till you're 18 (17 since January), but every day is torture and like a year to me, waiting a year AND then trying to find a job is painful. And not to mention I'm not even going to school because of extensive social anxiety that prevents me from leaving my house and even interacting with people in the house. I used to find comfort in technology but even that is passing and I find myself not being satisfied by anything. Note, I am visiting a psychiatrist and a psychologist and but the situation in my family is bad and ... Sorry for venting here, but HN is my only "social" life.
From your website you are obviously a talented kid. Not sure where you are but sounds like getting out of your immediate environment may something to try more of. Without large expenses, have you tried solo pursuits in nature away from others like walking/hiking, nature photography, cycling, kayaking? Second hand bikes or kayaks are usually very cheap, many phones now have great cameras. Honestly a bit of exercise really helps with mood and outlook. Also sometimes just starting a project (eg. photography) and recording your progress can be immensely satisfying.
True, but also they can help a great deal and shouldn't be ruled out. Shouldn't be the automatic answer either.
Medical researchers (who mostly lack the skills) have problems and data sets in this field that could very effectively be worked with the newer statistical analysis and machine learning techniques. For example this is a project that I almost got involved with: http://www.diamond.unimelb.edu.au/research/projects.html#dia....
In more general terms, we all need to look after each other better! I hope you feel you did the best you could for your friend. But from my experience, it's amazing how people just fall away when you get seriously depressed.
In more general terms, we all need to look after each other better! I hope you feel you did the best you could for your friend. But from my experience, it's amazing how people just fall away when you get seriously depressed.
You specifically asked how you could use your technology skills to help people.
First though, there are two kinds (at least) of depression. One is the normal kind where you feel blue when things go wrong in life. This is normal and it should fade. There is another kind related to an incorrectly functioning brain. For this medication is needed to help correct that problem.
When a malfunctioning brain combines with things not going your way in life... you get a high probability of a downward spiral and suicide. It's a terrible self-feeding cycle.
Back to technology: Having a sense of meaning and purpose is quite possibly the most important component to a healthy human experience. When you are completely down in the dumps, just going down to a local soup kitchen and offering to volunteer for a day can recharge you and spark understanding of the human condition.
What you can do with technology is endless. For instance, I have never encountered an app or site where I enter a zip code and see everywhere I can go and help other people that day, right then and there. If such an app or site could list close by "AA" style depression sufferers meetings I could drop into anonymously on my way to they metaphorical "soup kitchen"; that would be even better.
You won't ever understand depression through tech, but understanding it through the human side will allow to you to envision how to use your tech skills to help.
First though, there are two kinds (at least) of depression. One is the normal kind where you feel blue when things go wrong in life. This is normal and it should fade. There is another kind related to an incorrectly functioning brain. For this medication is needed to help correct that problem.
When a malfunctioning brain combines with things not going your way in life... you get a high probability of a downward spiral and suicide. It's a terrible self-feeding cycle.
Back to technology: Having a sense of meaning and purpose is quite possibly the most important component to a healthy human experience. When you are completely down in the dumps, just going down to a local soup kitchen and offering to volunteer for a day can recharge you and spark understanding of the human condition.
What you can do with technology is endless. For instance, I have never encountered an app or site where I enter a zip code and see everywhere I can go and help other people that day, right then and there. If such an app or site could list close by "AA" style depression sufferers meetings I could drop into anonymously on my way to they metaphorical "soup kitchen"; that would be even better.
You won't ever understand depression through tech, but understanding it through the human side will allow to you to envision how to use your tech skills to help.
Define normal please? I am sorry but as someone who tried mesa of all kind. They don't help. It is a big lie. And please get informed before giving medical advice. Research how mesa are created and follow the money.
And I forgot to add above: I am sorry for the loss of your friend. When a friend dies in a freak accident, there is at least the comfort that you probably could have done nothing. When someone commits suicide your mind turns endlessly looking for sign and signals you missed and you always wonder. I hope you find peace.
I have to admit that I don't really know what a depression is. I cannot relate to people who suffer because negative things happen in their lives. However I suffer from some depression-like symptoms (poor sleep quality, disinterest in life and any activities) plus many more (mental brain fog is the most profound, low muscle endurance, stuffed nose, fatigue from sitting in front of computer monitor) and it is a 10+ year journey. It took me a few years to discover the link some food types, which for some time can lift my symptoms. Only recently I have found out about methylation and was happy to find out foods that helped were rich in the nutrients required to lower homocysteine levels. If I was to find a best treatment strategy for people with problems like mine - it would require finding the underlying cause. That is - discovering accurate (and cheap!) ways of identifying deficiencies of various micro-elements (esp. zinc, folates (but not folic acid) and other B-complex vitamins) and determining effective methods of supplementation.
Also - there has to be some link between posture and fatigue. My nose feels much cleaner and I am breathing easier after doing exercises for my neck kyphosis. It also helps with digestion and overall feeling of well-being.
As someone currently with depression (it's 4 AM, and I only had 3 hours of sleep), a job would really help. I've been unemployed for almost 2 years since graduation.
That's pretty much the story over here...
Right now I'm just re-studying CS (history, OS, networks, databases, algorithms, etc.). Hopefully it helps, and it reminds me why I like CS.
A lack of job means living with my parents, having no ownership, being treated like a child, no future, etc.
I did have a contract before, but it was terribly underpaid and career killing, since no one wants to invest into you. I currently have another interview scheduled for a different 3-month contract for even worse pay ($23/hr in NYC).
The lack of having a career is terribly depressing. I get whiplash from the conditions and being treated as a non-member of the team.
A lack of job means living with my parents, having no ownership, being treated like a child, no future, etc.
I did have a contract before, but it was terribly underpaid and career killing, since no one wants to invest into you. I currently have another interview scheduled for a different 3-month contract for even worse pay ($23/hr in NYC).
The lack of having a career is terribly depressing. I get whiplash from the conditions and being treated as a non-member of the team.
When you get into this situation it just snowballs and the main factor when you do actually get an interview for a good job they ask you why you been out of work so long.
When it comes time to choose the employee for the job, no matter how well you did in that interview they will be thinking if he is the right choice: "how come he can't find work? we must be missing a red flag on this person that other employers are noticing. Let's choose the 2nd best as a more secure option so that we don't look like idiots."
I too was suckered into an underpaying tech job startup where I was promised of quick advancement. Instead I got taken advantage of and have yet to recover from this mistake.
The struggle continues...
When it comes time to choose the employee for the job, no matter how well you did in that interview they will be thinking if he is the right choice: "how come he can't find work? we must be missing a red flag on this person that other employers are noticing. Let's choose the 2nd best as a more secure option so that we don't look like idiots."
I too was suckered into an underpaying tech job startup where I was promised of quick advancement. Instead I got taken advantage of and have yet to recover from this mistake.
The struggle continues...
Heh, I'm in a similar situation. I've been out of work for over 6 months. I've been unable to find anything in my city, and now employers are starting to question why I can't find work.
Truth is every nearly all tech jobs where I live pay very poorly and are mostly dead-end development agency type gigs.
I don't have any money to relocate, nor do I have any money to commute for interviews elsewhere. Plus, it's very rare to find employers willing to help with such things.
Another problem is that I was suckered into a dead-end development job since I left school so I haven't really got much "professional" experience with modern technologies. That kind of annoys me because I've been coding for 10 years and I've been keeping up with things in personal projects, but apparently that doesn't count.
Oh, and I have anxiety and autism so my personal is toxic for most agile development roles. That's probably why I was let go.
I've basically lost everything now. My house, car and now that I'm back with my parents I'm living hour away from my girlfriend which I don't have any real way to see. I suppose in some ways it's liberating to no longer have to worry about losing the things I care about.
I never drank a day in my life until now, but lately I drink every day just to help me through. People say alcohol does't work, but that's not true. I'd recommend it to anyone in my situation.
I'll keep trying to find something, I'm a fighter at heart, but I'm not holding out much hope anymore.
I'm not sure how much long things can carry on like this.
Best of luck, I hope everything works out for you man.
Truth is every nearly all tech jobs where I live pay very poorly and are mostly dead-end development agency type gigs.
I don't have any money to relocate, nor do I have any money to commute for interviews elsewhere. Plus, it's very rare to find employers willing to help with such things.
Another problem is that I was suckered into a dead-end development job since I left school so I haven't really got much "professional" experience with modern technologies. That kind of annoys me because I've been coding for 10 years and I've been keeping up with things in personal projects, but apparently that doesn't count.
Oh, and I have anxiety and autism so my personal is toxic for most agile development roles. That's probably why I was let go.
I've basically lost everything now. My house, car and now that I'm back with my parents I'm living hour away from my girlfriend which I don't have any real way to see. I suppose in some ways it's liberating to no longer have to worry about losing the things I care about.
I never drank a day in my life until now, but lately I drink every day just to help me through. People say alcohol does't work, but that's not true. I'd recommend it to anyone in my situation.
I'll keep trying to find something, I'm a fighter at heart, but I'm not holding out much hope anymore.
I'm not sure how much long things can carry on like this.
Best of luck, I hope everything works out for you man.
Oh yes, keeping up with technologies on your own time doesn't count for shit unless you were utilizing it on the job. Experience is what they are basing all their interviews on, an since most people embellish on what they can do during the interview and on their CV, you better be prepared to embellish as well or you will loose every time.
Timing and luck count for a lot. You won the shit job lottery that's difficult to recover from, not to mention your anxiety/autism that will hurt your chances as well.
I am only a couple weeks away from moving back in with my mother as I can't find any work and also am loosing everything, I'm a 35 year old man moving back with his mother, back to the same city I left 7 years ago to improve my life. I have even applied to a previous employer close to my mother that treated me so horribly it was the main reason I left that town in the first place.
On the positive side all I have now is this computer I'm writing on, a DSLR camera and a cell phone. So I am able to get up and go anywhere in the world possible I guess, no GF to discuss that over.
And yes alcohol sure does work, an I can't even afford that anymore.
But honestly if you keep plugging away at it, you are going to get the timing right for once (laws of probability), be in the right place at the right time and the course of life changes. This thought is one of the only things preventing me from ending everything.
Timing and luck count for a lot. You won the shit job lottery that's difficult to recover from, not to mention your anxiety/autism that will hurt your chances as well.
I am only a couple weeks away from moving back in with my mother as I can't find any work and also am loosing everything, I'm a 35 year old man moving back with his mother, back to the same city I left 7 years ago to improve my life. I have even applied to a previous employer close to my mother that treated me so horribly it was the main reason I left that town in the first place.
On the positive side all I have now is this computer I'm writing on, a DSLR camera and a cell phone. So I am able to get up and go anywhere in the world possible I guess, no GF to discuss that over.
And yes alcohol sure does work, an I can't even afford that anymore.
But honestly if you keep plugging away at it, you are going to get the timing right for once (laws of probability), be in the right place at the right time and the course of life changes. This thought is one of the only things preventing me from ending everything.
Could you provide some way to contact you in your profile? Email etc? I think someone would like to talk with you about your skills / possible gigs (I would contact you over the next days for sure). Also: perhaps put a list of your skills in your profile, together with a 'looking for job/contract'.
I updated my profile. I never realized the email field was private.
Could you provide an email address / way to contact you in your profile?
My condolences for your loss, and to their family.
I think the main thing that can be done to help people with these issues is to reduce the stigma of mental illness. The idea that you are somehow responsible or shouldn't talk about those problems keeps people from getting the help they need. Unfortunately I do not know how this can be done.
I'd be happy to talk to you about this privately, if you wish. My contact info is in my profile.
I think the main thing that can be done to help people with these issues is to reduce the stigma of mental illness. The idea that you are somehow responsible or shouldn't talk about those problems keeps people from getting the help they need. Unfortunately I do not know how this can be done.
I'd be happy to talk to you about this privately, if you wish. My contact info is in my profile.
Some great suggestions in the top comment. Also try talking through the causes of the depression and what they can do to resolve it or improve on it. I once had a friend who was depressed and considering taking medication to treat it. We talked for a little while and it turned out that she had an abusive father while growing up, and her depression had started ever since she moved back home with her parents. She is now in the process of moving out and putting more distance between her and her father.
Depression is often like physical pain. Sometimes it's worth treating in and of itself, other times, it's your body/mind's way of telling you that there's something wrong, and that you need to go fix it. In such cases, you always want to make sure that you're treating the cause, and not the symptoms.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/magazine/28depression-t...
Depression is often like physical pain. Sometimes it's worth treating in and of itself, other times, it's your body/mind's way of telling you that there's something wrong, and that you need to go fix it. In such cases, you always want to make sure that you're treating the cause, and not the symptoms.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/magazine/28depression-t...
I feel the most important effort is to take the time to be around them and listen to them when they want to talk and not push them when they don't want to.
Having seen a close friend go through depression, one of the biggest lessons I learnt was to when to keep shut and not push, but then sometimes - you have to take a call to push them to open up. When I say push - I mean asking them to "try out different things to get out of depression”. You have to tread those waters a bit carefully. Because if they start something and can't continue then it is another reason for them to feel depressed - and generalize that "I am not that good at all".
I did a lot of mistakes like pushing them to get into routines, exercise and other out of comfort zone things - at the wrong times. And the cardinal mistake of “oh-try-a-bit-harder” expression and body language. Those are things that you need to avoid.
It did take a couple of other friends also - to whom my friend opened up to.
It did take a couple of other friends also - to whom my friend opened up to.
This is good advice right here... timing, body language and when to push and when to give space.
From my own experience:
Listen and keep in mind that all the emotions of a depressed person are their reality. Emotions are far more powerful than most people expect and can change the view on everything. What helped me most was meditation... Instead of being scared and running away from what was going on it helped me focusing on and studying my own depression. The process was to not identify myself too much, learning that there's a me and bunch load of emotions i couldn't handle. Don't push to hard, a depression takes its time. Listen, talk, take them on a walk. but don't expect them to be fine just after a few weeks. Find a good psychologist who can help the person to understand the mechanics of a depression, it's source and how it develops, and how it shows off. Again studying and understanding yourself was to me the most helpful thing. Sports helped in the very end to get back on track and preventing some fallbacks.
Be kind to everyone you meet.
I think that people aren't depressed by a chemical imbalance but instead that is the result of their situation. And I think helping people by improving their quality of life might help them feel better. That's my case, but there might be people who have everything yet feel empty, in that case love, family, support and medications can help. Just don't be afraid to ask for different meds if the side effects you don't like, like for example gaining weight or twitching or nystagmus or something like that (i had all 3 and more)...
I think it can be both or a combination of them. For me it was defiantly a chemical imbalance. One day my mind decided to bail with no real reason and I finally understood how depressed people just can't start a spark of motivation without the feeling of oncoming paralyzing dread.
Go study psychology and psychiatry.
I wonder if this might be a mutually-beneficial situation for lonely, elderly people to hook up with struggling folks.
Learn about LSD