Ultraconserved words in use since the last Ice Age(dailygrail.com)
dailygrail.com
Ultraconserved words in use since the last Ice Age
http://www.dailygrail.com/Hidden-History/2017/5/Study-Uncovered-Common-Words-Appear-Have-Survived-Mother-Language-Existed
102 comments
> I'm no historical linguist, but I'd take this finding with a bunch of grains of salt. Eurasiatic language families that seek to combine, say, Proto-Indo-European [2] and Altaic [3] languages are pretty controversial, and in general this paper reeks a bit of glottochronology [4], which is a pretty controversial topic in historical linguistics itself.
It's worth pointing out that everybody who actually studies the relevant Altaic languages now agrees that the Altaic family doesn't exist, not even in 'micro-Altaic' (just Mongolic/Tunguskic/Turkic languages) form. Basically, the consensus is that the similarity between those three languages arise from deep contact rather than genetic relationships (think what happened to Old English after the Norse and Norman invasions on its way to Middle English).
It's worth pointing out that everybody who actually studies the relevant Altaic languages now agrees that the Altaic family doesn't exist, not even in 'micro-Altaic' (just Mongolic/Tunguskic/Turkic languages) form. Basically, the consensus is that the similarity between those three languages arise from deep contact rather than genetic relationships (think what happened to Old English after the Norse and Norman invasions on its way to Middle English).
As someone who knows nothing about linguistics, I was surprised that the article expressed surprise that "[these root words] can be predicted from information independent of their sounds. We showed in a sample of Indo-European languages that the frequency with which a word is used in everyday speech, along with its part of speech, can predict how rapidly words evolve, with frequently used words on average retained for longer periods of time."
I would have guessed that, on the basis of utility, the conservation of words would fundamentally be a function of their meaning, and, for the most part, that function would be fairly constant across all human cultures, regardless of the specific languages used by those cultures (again on grounds of their utility.) From that perspective, would it be all that surprising if approximately the same set of meanings were conserved even in languages with no common history?
I would have guessed that, on the basis of utility, the conservation of words would fundamentally be a function of their meaning, and, for the most part, that function would be fairly constant across all human cultures, regardless of the specific languages used by those cultures (again on grounds of their utility.) From that perspective, would it be all that surprising if approximately the same set of meanings were conserved even in languages with no common history?
For a good etymological mystery, it's hard to beat "dog."
Not only is the word "dog" of unknown origin, its equivalents in Spanish and various Slavic languages also apparently appeared from nowhere.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=dog
If that's not fun enough, there's an extinct Aboriginal language from Australia which has a word for dog. That word is also "dog" - apparently pronounced the same as in English, and a complete coincidence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbabaram_language
Not only is the word "dog" of unknown origin, its equivalents in Spanish and various Slavic languages also apparently appeared from nowhere.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=dog
If that's not fun enough, there's an extinct Aboriginal language from Australia which has a word for dog. That word is also "dog" - apparently pronounced the same as in English, and a complete coincidence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbabaram_language
Opposite of the topic (ultra-nonconserved?), "butterfly" is a word that is strangely different in even closely related European languages (Romance, Teutonic, Slavic). Doing a cursory check in Google Translate now, but I've one found one language pair where the words appear to be related: French: "papillon", Catalan "papallona". Otherwise: mariposa, бабочка, motyl, schmetterling, vlinder, sommerfugl, fjäril, farfalla, пеперуда, leptir ...
I'd love to hear a linguistic explanation for this.
EDIT: Latin: "papilionem" (papilio?), so at least French and Catalan have conserved it, and I can see that Italian "farfalla" could be cognate.
EDIT EDIT: All the Slavic languages known to Google Translate have a word related to motyl, except for Russian: бабочка (butterfly) (but мотылек (moth)), so there is less to this phenomenon than meets the eye!
I'd love to hear a linguistic explanation for this.
EDIT: Latin: "papilionem" (papilio?), so at least French and Catalan have conserved it, and I can see that Italian "farfalla" could be cognate.
EDIT EDIT: All the Slavic languages known to Google Translate have a word related to motyl, except for Russian: бабочка (butterfly) (but мотылек (moth)), so there is less to this phenomenon than meets the eye!
I was amused to realise that Turkey (the animal) has a wide range of different names, often a country foreign to the language.
i.e in Turkey they call Turkey Indian, in Portugal they call it Peru, in Malay it's a Dutch Chicken.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_for_turkeys
i.e in Turkey they call Turkey Indian, in Portugal they call it Peru, in Malay it's a Dutch Chicken.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_for_turkeys
Turkeys are native to the Americas, so it showed up around the 1500s. Usually things from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance have very different words in different European languages. Words that are from Roman times or before are similar because they derive from Latin.
Why 'strangely' different? Why would you expect such exotic animals to be ultra-nonconserved?
Schmetterling may be semantically linked to butterfly via 'batter-fly' (beater-fly)
also:
motyl~moth sommerfugl~summer-fly
interesting that wiktionary for papillon shows a puppy :) might also be linked to big pupils and fake eyes
[0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/papillon
Schmetterling may be semantically linked to butterfly via 'batter-fly' (beater-fly)
also:
motyl~moth sommerfugl~summer-fly
interesting that wiktionary for papillon shows a puppy :) might also be linked to big pupils and fake eyes
[0] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/papillon
> Schmetterling may be semantically linked to butterfly via 'batter-fly' (beater-fly)
No, it's semantically linked via 'butter'. Schmetterling comes from Schmetten or Schmand which is a sort of heavy cream. There used to be a folk believe that butterflies would consume milk or butter if left uncovered. They were also sometimes called Milkdieb or milk-thief in German.
See: www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=butterfly
No, it's semantically linked via 'butter'. Schmetterling comes from Schmetten or Schmand which is a sort of heavy cream. There used to be a folk believe that butterflies would consume milk or butter if left uncovered. They were also sometimes called Milkdieb or milk-thief in German.
See: www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=butterfly
https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/27471/does-the-...
Adds a little too, looks like the idea of butterflies stealing butter may come from their voids looking like butter.
I'd also like to imagine a story being made about them stealing butter to encourage children to cover the butter.
Adds a little too, looks like the idea of butterflies stealing butter may come from their voids looking like butter.
I'd also like to imagine a story being made about them stealing butter to encourage children to cover the butter.
> Schmetten or Schmand which is a sort of heavy cream.
Is "smetana" a false friend?
Is "smetana" a false friend?
That is disputed. Most scholars say that germanic "schmand" has different roots and is cognate with English "smooth" - some scholars however consider schmand a very old loan word from proto-slavic smetana.
Interesting.
Butter + Schmetten/смета́на • (smetána) probably still come from beat:schmettern<>smith and or smeltan:smelt.
Where do Schmeissfliege (blowfly) and Schmalz(molten fat) sit? ;)
Butter + Schmetten/смета́на • (smetána) probably still come from beat:schmettern<>smith and or smeltan:smelt.
Where do Schmeissfliege (blowfly) and Schmalz(molten fat) sit? ;)
Or maybe not:
βούτῡρον (boútūron, “cow cheese”), compound of βοῦς (boûs, “ox, cow”) and τῡρός (tūrós, “cheese”). tūrós <> Taurus = cow hmmm
You would expect closely related languages to have similar words for a common animal, i.e. to be at least somewhat conserved. I do find it mysterious. Another one: Dutch vlinder, Afrikaans (very close descendant) schoenlapper.
I think the papillon dog breed has big, butterfly-like ears!
I think the papillon dog breed has big, butterfly-like ears!
But the main reason closely related languages tend to have similar words is because the word existed before the languages diverged. When the already distinct languages borrow a word independently, the word might have a different story or source behind it.
But Butterfly isn't exotic in most of indoeuropean-speaking countries?
>EDIT: Latin: "papilionem" (papilio?), so at least French and Catalan have conserved it, and I can see that Italian "farfalla" could be cognate.
Sure, "farfalla" is relatively recent, in old italian it is "parpaglia" or (still used in some dialects "parpaja" or "parpajon"), according to some sources:
http://www.etimoitaliano.it/2017/02/farfalla.html
There is seemingly an Indo-european root "s-par" or "s-pal" or "s-far" and the Greek "pallo" with the meaning of something that vibrates.
The root seems the same a "palpebra" (eyelid) which is paupière in French, párpado in Spanish and pálpebra in Portuguese.
Sure, "farfalla" is relatively recent, in old italian it is "parpaglia" or (still used in some dialects "parpaja" or "parpajon"), according to some sources:
http://www.etimoitaliano.it/2017/02/farfalla.html
There is seemingly an Indo-european root "s-par" or "s-pal" or "s-far" and the Greek "pallo" with the meaning of something that vibrates.
The root seems the same a "palpebra" (eyelid) which is paupière in French, párpado in Spanish and pálpebra in Portuguese.
Seems like that word is very fragmented. Here's a map of the different ways of naming it in Euskera (Basque language). In a very small area you have a lot of ways of naming the same animal...
Any reason why there's something special about butterflies that we don't agree on their name?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsK-lFaXEAA7zpT.jpg
Any reason why there's something special about butterflies that we don't agree on their name?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CsK-lFaXEAA7zpT.jpg
Hypothesis: they attract folklore because of their beauty, fleeting appearances, etc. and so get named according to local tales?
In Slavic languages apparently motyl etc comes from motit (motać się) = to move around randomly. Kinda fitting if you've seen a flying motyl.
> All the Slavic languages known to Google Translate have a word related to motyl, except for Russian
In Serbian and Croatian the word for butterfly is лептир/leptir.
In Serbian and Croatian the word for butterfly is лептир/leptir.
Which relates to the Greek word used as a base for lepidopterist?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepidopterology
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepidopterology
pt*r being PIE wing as in pterodactyl ?
Given limited set of sounds a human can pronounce, and a natural tendency to keep the most common words small, can we calculate a probability of such a coincidence? Because it seems to me it's probably a classic birthday paradox example.
The 23 words from the PNAS paper (Table 1):
Thou
I
Not
That
We
To give
Who
This
What
Man/male
Ye
Old
Mother
To hear
Hand
Fire
To Pull
Black
To flow
Bark
Ashes
To spit
Worm
I wonder how many of those would survive multiple hypothesis testing. That is, there are bound to be a number of phonetically similar words that happen to have similar meanings in two different languages. They may not however have common historical roots.
No idea if this list will stand the test of time, but I tried making some minimal ultra-conserved sentences using all of the words. Lots of pronouns, plus some very specific and limited sets of nouns and verbs make it a fun challenge. [Unlisted words bracketed.]
1) "Hear ye! I, [a] man who[se] hand gives this fire [to] bark. What black ashes! Not thou old mother, that pulls the worm and spits. We flow."
2) "We, man [and] old mother, hand-pull black bark. Worm that spits fire, not ashes, flows. This, what I give ye, thou who hear."
3) "Black, old, male mother pulls worm, not spits fire [or] ashes. I give thou who hear what flows [to] ye."
1) "Hear ye! I, [a] man who[se] hand gives this fire [to] bark. What black ashes! Not thou old mother, that pulls the worm and spits. We flow."
2) "We, man [and] old mother, hand-pull black bark. Worm that spits fire, not ashes, flows. This, what I give ye, thou who hear."
3) "Black, old, male mother pulls worm, not spits fire [or] ashes. I give thou who hear what flows [to] ye."
My favorite example of this is the word "squirrel," which is originally from ancient Greek, σκίουρος (lexical translation: skiouros, which means shadow-tailed). Somehow the notion that Socrates would use approximately the same (rather unlikely) word for this animal that I do is fascinating.
There's an order-of-magnitude difference here: Ancient Greek was alive 1500 years ago, while the last Ice Age ended 12000 years ago.
Interesting etymology. Does that mean the in ancient Greek, squirrels were called "shadow tails"?
I find these explanations a bit baffling. That's a much more sophisticated and metaphorical name than you'd expect.
It would be a bit like calling cats "bird scratchers."
I find these explanations a bit baffling. That's a much more sophisticated and metaphorical name than you'd expect.
It would be a bit like calling cats "bird scratchers."
I'm not sure why it baffles you, this type of "names-by-associations" are pretty common. See "woodpecker", "ladybug", "daddy longlegs", "silverback" etc... Not that different.
Also maybe "shadow" had a slightly different meaning back then or the translation is simply not 100% accurate (are they ever?).
Also maybe "shadow" had a slightly different meaning back then or the translation is simply not 100% accurate (are they ever?).
That's my take. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squirrel#Etymology
My Japanese native language speaker in college had an obsession with the word "squirrel". We spent an entire year trying to teach her how to pronounce it.
Ssss-ka-wuh-rrr-llll
Ssss-ka-wuh-rrr-llll
I am German and 'squirrel' is the one English word I just can't pronounce. I am very good at all the other words, but that one stumps me.
You're not alone. "Squirrel" pops up as that one word most Germans seem to be insecure about even if they otherwise speak fluent English.
I think this is mostly because Germans are generally taught RP, where it is pronounced /ˈskwɪɹəl/ (skwe-rel). The American /ˈskwɝl̩/ (skwerl with a very faint r) is considerably easier to pronounce for German speakers.
Because neither the English /w/ nor the English /ɹ/ exist in German and because they're both pronounced in close proximity to each other, the combination tends to be confusing to pronounce (as with combinations of th and s/z).
I think this is mostly because Germans are generally taught RP, where it is pronounced /ˈskwɪɹəl/ (skwe-rel). The American /ˈskwɝl̩/ (skwerl with a very faint r) is considerably easier to pronounce for German speakers.
Because neither the English /w/ nor the English /ɹ/ exist in German and because they're both pronounced in close proximity to each other, the combination tends to be confusing to pronounce (as with combinations of th and s/z).
"Fuzzy-tailed picnic-thieving tree rat" is an acceptable alternative. Season to taste with your favorite summer or winter expletives.
I had trouble with the Japanese "ts" sound until I was taught that "ts" is the same sound as "pets" without the "pe.
Can you pronounce "squirt"? If yes, try pronouncing the "squir" portion of the word, dropping the "t". You should be pronouncing it like this reference, minus that hard "t" sound at the end [0].
Can you pronounce the rare English word "rill"? It's of Germanic origin so you should be able to. You should be pronouncing it like this reference [1]
If yes to both of the above questions, you can pronounce "squirrel".
Say "squir" from squirt, take a pause for a half second, then say "rill". Repeat the phrase faster and faster trying to shorten the pause between the two.
Alternatively, you can approximate the word "squirrel" from the English word "quarrel" by adding an "s" to the beginning. "s" + "quarrel". There will be a subtle mispronunciation with this method, but you should be able to pass in most conversation.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CPhAx00d2Y
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyFuCgq03mg
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y21ZciKJA_I
Can you pronounce "squirt"? If yes, try pronouncing the "squir" portion of the word, dropping the "t". You should be pronouncing it like this reference, minus that hard "t" sound at the end [0].
Can you pronounce the rare English word "rill"? It's of Germanic origin so you should be able to. You should be pronouncing it like this reference [1]
If yes to both of the above questions, you can pronounce "squirrel".
Say "squir" from squirt, take a pause for a half second, then say "rill". Repeat the phrase faster and faster trying to shorten the pause between the two.
Alternatively, you can approximate the word "squirrel" from the English word "quarrel" by adding an "s" to the beginning. "s" + "quarrel". There will be a subtle mispronunciation with this method, but you should be able to pass in most conversation.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CPhAx00d2Y
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyFuCgq03mg
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y21ZciKJA_I
Whereas I have that problem with Eichhoernchen
Can you handle “square” and “girl”?
Yes, but squirrel is still impossible.
in Japanese:
Square yes (スクエア, sukuea） Girl no (ガール, gaaru)
Square yes (スクエア, sukuea） Girl no (ガール, gaaru)
If you can say "swirl", then "skwirl" ain't too far off, at which point you're in line with American pronunciation.
"Squirrel" is in fact a very difficult word to pronounce. Too many consonants squeezed into only two syllables -- sometimes even pronounced as a single syllable -- with a weird diphthong in between.
The ancient Greek version would have been much easier to express in Japanese: su-kyuu-ro-su.
The ancient Greek version would have been much easier to express in Japanese: su-kyuu-ro-su.
The link between a word's length and its "usefulness" is fascinating too. The shorter the word, the more central, fundamental and frequent its use, as a rule of thumb. [0]
One glaring exception is "conscientiousness" -- a personality trait that has been the nr. 1 performance predictor in jobs that require results (execution as opposed to ideas), across time and industries. Clearly central, but 17 characters! O_o
[0] Strauss, Grzybek, Altmann: Word Length and Word Frequency https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4020-4068-...
One glaring exception is "conscientiousness" -- a personality trait that has been the nr. 1 performance predictor in jobs that require results (execution as opposed to ideas), across time and industries. Clearly central, but 17 characters! O_o
[0] Strauss, Grzybek, Altmann: Word Length and Word Frequency https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4020-4068-...
“conscientiousness” is quite young (stolen from Latin, i.e. when the Romans conquered the world). If it was significant before, it might have been shorter.
So basically words organically developed Huffman coding?
Not perfect synonyms, but we do have shorter words in the same semantic ballpark: virtue, vigor, zeal, concern, care, pains...
I'd say the first three are completely off; "concern" & "care" better (I also heard "grit"), but not quite there.
"Grit" is more like an unwillingness to surrender to adversity.
"Care" I think is the closest monosyllabic equivalent. Diligence and attention to detail are specifically exhorted by "take care", and caution by "use care". Conversely, one may disclaim them all with "I don't care".
It's a short word and probably an old one, so it's heavily freighted with denotations and connotations alike, and finds much use outside this context. But if you want to say "conscientiousness" in fewer than five syllables - which is a sensible thing to want - then I think "care" must be the most accurate word with which to do so.
"Care" I think is the closest monosyllabic equivalent. Diligence and attention to detail are specifically exhorted by "take care", and caution by "use care". Conversely, one may disclaim them all with "I don't care".
It's a short word and probably an old one, so it's heavily freighted with denotations and connotations alike, and finds much use outside this context. But if you want to say "conscientiousness" in fewer than five syllables - which is a sensible thing to want - then I think "care" must be the most accurate word with which to do so.
>One glaring exception is "conscientiousness" -- a personality trait that has been the nr. 1 performance predictor in jobs that require results (execution as opposed to ideas), across time and industries. Clearly central, but 17 characters!
Central here should be read as "important and used frequently everyday" (which conscientiousness is not at all), not central as in "the notion identified by the word is important in some domain" (besides conscientiousness does not even qualify that much even for this latter criterion).
Central here should be read as "important and used frequently everyday" (which conscientiousness is not at all), not central as in "the notion identified by the word is important in some domain" (besides conscientiousness does not even qualify that much even for this latter criterion).
The article says that words like "fire", "ashes", "bark", and "worm" could be 15K years old, but doesn't provide any idea of how they might have sounded back then. The original paper linked at the bottom doesn't seem to help in that regard, either.
Is this something that we simply cannot know with current methods? Ice Age people obviously didn't leave any sound recordings, but surely some of the sounds would have to be present in a similar form in order for us to say with confidence that a it's the same word?
Is this something that we simply cannot know with current methods? Ice Age people obviously didn't leave any sound recordings, but surely some of the sounds would have to be present in a similar form in order for us to say with confidence that a it's the same word?
I think I found an online interface to the database they used: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morph...
Searching for "fire" gives a bunch of different results; I have no idea which one they used. The one closest to English is probably "*ṗVxwV" (where V stands for any vowel, I believe).
Searching for "fire" gives a bunch of different results; I have no idea which one they used. The one closest to English is probably "*ṗVxwV" (where V stands for any vowel, I believe).
Oh; thank you for the great link!
You can even "Select another database"; they have a lot. Nice resource.
For anyone interested in etymology and the endless source of fascinating stories that is language, I recommend The History of English Podcast: http://historyofenglishpodcast.com/
It starts all the way back in Proto-Indo-European and gives a really fulfilling amount of linguistic detail. Some of the most enjoyable parts, IMO, are when you realize that two seemingly-unrelated words are actually cognate.
It starts all the way back in Proto-Indo-European and gives a really fulfilling amount of linguistic detail. Some of the most enjoyable parts, IMO, are when you realize that two seemingly-unrelated words are actually cognate.
I really like the word "tea" across languages.
Japanese - cha
Chinese - chá
Thailand - chā
Russian - чай (chay)
Turkish - Çay (chai)
Sri Lanka Sinhala - තේ (tē)
Arabic - شاي (shay)
German - tee
English - tea!
You have to go out of your way to find a language where "tea" deviates from those patterns.
Japanese - cha
Chinese - chá
Thailand - chā
Russian - чай (chay)
Turkish - Çay (chai)
Sri Lanka Sinhala - තේ (tē)
Arabic - شاي (shay)
German - tee
English - tea!
You have to go out of your way to find a language where "tea" deviates from those patterns.
As common words go, this one isn’t that old though. Dates from the late 1st millennium, and has mostly been spread around in the past 500 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_tea
I think it’s similar with other products originating largely from a single source, e.g. “chocolate”, “ramen”, “tofu”, “wine”, “cashmere”, “curry”, “khaki”, “shampoo”, ...
I think it’s similar with other products originating largely from a single source, e.g. “chocolate”, “ramen”, “tofu”, “wine”, “cashmere”, “curry”, “khaki”, “shampoo”, ...
But nothing is that simple. Chocolate got mixed up, for example. It's an aztec compound word for the drink made from the plant (xocolatl == "bitter water", per wikipedia). The original term for the plant itself in the sense we use it was the unrelated mayan word cacao.
Cacao and chocolate both come from Nahuatl words (cacaua and xocolatl, respectively, though note that there was also a drink called cacahuaatl: “atl” = water).
According to Wiktionary the xocolatl case is actually a bit uncertain (not much evidence of that word in use before 1750), and there are some competing theories that it was maybe related to the word for a stirring stick, or maybe descended from the Yucatec Maya word chocol (hot). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chocolate
The version I like is the Maya version from the south of Mexico, now called tascalate (not sure what the Maya name was, or exactly what the etymology is there – the “ate” part comes from the same Nahuatl word for water).
But that’s all sort of beside the point that the word chocolate (and cacao) are fairly recent words, which were spread rapidly around the world mostly from one source, so the name was adopted pretty much everywhere as a loanword, and doesn’t change too much between languages.
According to Wiktionary the xocolatl case is actually a bit uncertain (not much evidence of that word in use before 1750), and there are some competing theories that it was maybe related to the word for a stirring stick, or maybe descended from the Yucatec Maya word chocol (hot). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chocolate
The version I like is the Maya version from the south of Mexico, now called tascalate (not sure what the Maya name was, or exactly what the etymology is there – the “ate” part comes from the same Nahuatl word for water).
But that’s all sort of beside the point that the word chocolate (and cacao) are fairly recent words, which were spread rapidly around the world mostly from one source, so the name was adopted pretty much everywhere as a loanword, and doesn’t change too much between languages.
Yeah, but it was a loan word in Nahuatl too. I was sure the original domestication was mayan, but wikipedia tells me that the original word comes from mixe-zoque (so plausibly Olmec).
I used to have a folk etymology for chocolate as cacao + lait (or latte), which feels very plausible despite being historically incorrect!
For some values of "plausible"? I'm pretty sure pre-Colombian mayans and aztecs didn't consume animal milk, as they hadn't domesticated cows, sheeps or goats.
This is presumably a folk etymology of the French or English word "chocolate", not of the Aztec word "xocolatl"
Right, I think I had thought we got it from French and that they had formed it as cocoa/cacao + lait.
Makes sense (but yeah, plausible depending on what you know).
I was pretty young when I interpreted it that way, and I don't think I knew anything about the Mesoamerican origins of chocolate when I thought that, or about the Columbian Exchange. I think I figured that basically the same food species were available everywhere, and there were just different cultural ways of preparing and combining them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_Exchange
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_Exchange
But that's because the Europeans all adopted the word later.
From etymology online:
The distribution of the different forms of the word in Europe reflects the spread of use of the beverage. The modern English form, along with French thé, Spanish te, German Tee, etc., derive via Dutch thee from the Amoy form, reflecting the role of the Dutch as the chief importers of the leaves (through the Dutch East India Company, from 1610). Meanwhile, Russian chai, Persian cha, Greek tsai, Arabic shay, and Turkish çay all came overland from the Mandarin form.
From etymology online:
The distribution of the different forms of the word in Europe reflects the spread of use of the beverage. The modern English form, along with French thé, Spanish te, German Tee, etc., derive via Dutch thee from the Amoy form, reflecting the role of the Dutch as the chief importers of the leaves (through the Dutch East India Company, from 1610). Meanwhile, Russian chai, Persian cha, Greek tsai, Arabic shay, and Turkish çay all came overland from the Mandarin form.
Interestingly, we the Portuguese are the exception, using Chá despite being at the Western extreme of the continent: http://i.imgur.com/M4vrWr1.png
Which probably means we got it earlier thanks to our trips to India and China in the 1500s, but then failed to capitalize on its sale to the rest of Europe.
Which probably means we got it earlier thanks to our trips to India and China in the 1500s, but then failed to capitalize on its sale to the rest of Europe.
Yeah, you are right on with that observation. You prompted me to find out from where the VOC imported their tea. Apparently the initial source was Macao which spoke Cantonese. In modern day Canton and Putonghua words for tea are near indisguishable, so perhaps the Cantonese word for tea circa 1600 was quite like the current Putonhua word for tea. Had VOC sourced their tea from Sri Lanka, our word for tea might be dramatically different. In Tamil, tea is called தேநீர் (tēnīr)
http://www.mightyleaftea.be/history-of-tea?___store=uk&___fr...
edit: tea not teat
http://www.mightyleaftea.be/history-of-tea?___store=uk&___fr...
edit: tea not teat
From wikipedia
Starting in the early seventeen century, the Dutch played a dominant role in the early European tea trade via the Dutch East India Company.[18] The Dutch borrowed the word for "tea" (thee) from Min Chinese, either through trade directly from Fujian or Formosa where they had established a port, or from Malay traders in Bantam, Java.
Also interesting speculation as to whether the chinese themselves got it the word from speakers of austro-asiatic languages living in southwest china.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea#Etymology
Starting in the early seventeen century, the Dutch played a dominant role in the early European tea trade via the Dutch East India Company.[18] The Dutch borrowed the word for "tea" (thee) from Min Chinese, either through trade directly from Fujian or Formosa where they had established a port, or from Malay traders in Bantam, Java.
Also interesting speculation as to whether the chinese themselves got it the word from speakers of austro-asiatic languages living in southwest china.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea#Etymology
> You have to go out of your way to find a language where "tea" deviates from those patterns.
Well, there you go:
Lithuanian: arbata, https://translate.google.com/#en/lt/tea
Polish: herbata, https://translate.google.com/#en/pl/tea
Aymara: pulu, https://ay.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulu
Well, there you go:
Lithuanian: arbata, https://translate.google.com/#en/lt/tea
Polish: herbata, https://translate.google.com/#en/pl/tea
Aymara: pulu, https://ay.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulu
Yet in Polish the word "czaj" also exists and it means a very strong tea.
Herbata seems to come from Latin, as it relates to herbs.
Herbata seems to come from Latin, as it relates to herbs.
Wikipedia says that the -ta in Lithuanian and Polish is from Latin thea, from the phrase herba thea ('tea herb'), so there is still a morpheme in common with the other languages in this case!
I think this is from New Latin, not Latin Latin.
It's funny to think that the etymology of Latin thea probably runs through Dutch! Definitely New Latin.
Interesting, I never actually encountered "czaj" used to describe tea. From a quick search it seems to be either prison slang, or a word used in eastern Poland, coming from Russia.
And then there's "czajnik" for teapot.
And then there's "czajnik" for teapot.
I know it as a prison slang word to describe a very strong tea.
In the area where I come from (Wielkopolska) czaj is a commonly known word for a "strong tea-like infusion". It's not prison slang at all, but of course there might be regional differences in the usage of this word.
Funny, my wife is from Nowy Tomyśl and I literally never heard that word being used.
I'd never heard of the native South American language Aymara - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aymara_language.
It seems fair to say a language with c. 3M speakers is "going out of one's way" though.
Presumably (all?) other native American languages have words for steeped drinks not derived from "tea" too.
FWIW, especially in North England, en-gb has the word "brew" for a hot, steeped, drink (http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=br...) which predates the bringing of tea to the UK.
It seems fair to say a language with c. 3M speakers is "going out of one's way" though.
Presumably (all?) other native American languages have words for steeped drinks not derived from "tea" too.
FWIW, especially in North England, en-gb has the word "brew" for a hot, steeped, drink (http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=br...) which predates the bringing of tea to the UK.
Similar to Pineapple which is basically "ananas" in every language except English (pineapple) and Spanish (piña);
though "ananas" is also accepted, but rarely used, in Spanish, so English stands alone.
[0] https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/134659/why-is-pi...
[0] https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/134659/why-is-pi...
It's "abacaxi" in Brazil, although I guess it's "ananás" in Portugal.
Except in Austrian German, where "Ananas" can strangely mean "strawberry" :-)
The scientific name for garden strawberries Fragaria × ananassa. They are hybrids of F. virginiana and F. chiloensis (both of which come from the parts of the Americas referred to in their names). They apparently have a pineappley aroma in comparison to their native European cousins, F. vesca.
They all derive from two sources
Mandarin - chá
Hokkien - tê
Mandarin - chá
Hokkien - tê
Very cool about the Hokkien angle. I have near zero exposure to Hokkien and didn't realize the cha2 / te difference between the 2 dialects. Thank you! I've always been puzzled by the shift from the "ch" to "t" sound as the word migrated westward. I had always attributed the shift to a natural progressive change from language to language. Having two different original sources makes much more sense!
Someone else pointed out that the reason there's a cha/te divide in Eurasia is become some countries got it via maritime tried from coastal regions where Hokkien was spoken, and others got it overland from the interior, where Mandarin was more common.
You should lookup the word for pineapple in other languages. English is the outlier, most (or all, IIRC) call it "ananas".
Also 'piña' in spanish and 'abacaxi' in brazilian portuguese.
Abacaxi is such a fun word to say out loud.
Abacaxi is such a fun word to say out loud.
Names in Spanish for fruit & veg vary greatly by country.
I'm pretty sure 'ananas' is still pineapple in parts of South America, where it's a key ingredient in a Chilean cocktail.
furthermore - palta = avocado, durazno = peach, choclo = corn etc - some of the words that are completely different from their Peninsular Spanish equivalents.
I'm pretty sure 'ananas' is still pineapple in parts of South America, where it's a key ingredient in a Chilean cocktail.
furthermore - palta = avocado, durazno = peach, choclo = corn etc - some of the words that are completely different from their Peninsular Spanish equivalents.
Interestingly, it's the British who introduced tea to Sri Lanka, so the Sinhalese word තේ (tē) is an adaptation. So is very possibly the word for pineapple: ananas - annasi (අන්නාසි).
However, the following similarities are probably due to the common roots of Latin and Sanskrit:
English/Latin - Sinhalese
Nose - Naas
Dental - Danta
Three - Three
Regina (Queen) - Regina
There are many others...
Words adapted from Sinhalese to English:
Anaconda - Henakandaya (හෙණකඳයා) (Means "Massive Body")
However, the following similarities are probably due to the common roots of Latin and Sanskrit:
English/Latin - Sinhalese
Nose - Naas
Dental - Danta
Three - Three
Regina (Queen) - Regina
There are many others...
Words adapted from Sinhalese to English:
Anaconda - Henakandaya (හෙණකඳයා) (Means "Massive Body")
Yes, the absurdity of the package in my cupboard, claiming to contain "chai tea". But your list is a latter-day pattern, the word exported from China together with the product itself.
Persian - چای (Chai)
Korean - 차 (cha)
The Bulgarian form is the same as the russian чай (chay).
The word "hammer" changed quite a bit, but I still find it interesting that it origins from Proto-Indo-European word for stone:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Eur...
It still sounds somewhat familiar to modern slavic words for hammer: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kamień#Polish
It still sounds somewhat familiar to modern slavic words for hammer: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kamień#Polish
The Swadesh List is used by documentary linguists for a similar reason: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swadesh_list
There are just some things all human speaker communities need to talk about. Since these tend to be "ultraconserved" words, using the Swadesh list is a great way to understand the lineage of a given under-documented language, but a bad way to understand any rule-based mechanisms associated with that language such as morphology associated with inflection or declension.
There are just some things all human speaker communities need to talk about. Since these tend to be "ultraconserved" words, using the Swadesh list is a great way to understand the lineage of a given under-documented language, but a bad way to understand any rule-based mechanisms associated with that language such as morphology associated with inflection or declension.
[deleted]
Here is their list of the 23 most conserved words, from supplementary data table one of the article:
ashes bark black fire hand I man mother not old that this thou to flow to give to hear to pull to spit we what who worm we
[1] http://pnas.org/content/110/21/8471.full
ashes bark black fire hand I man mother not old that this thou to flow to give to hear to pull to spit we what who worm we
[1] http://pnas.org/content/110/21/8471.full
What do they mean by ultraconserved? From their examples, consider "I", "we", and "who" which are "Yo", "nostotros", and "quíen" in Spanish. If there is that much difference between closely related PIE languages, maybe I don't understand what they mean by "ultraconserved".
Among all the words listed, the only one which seems to be consistent across various language families is mother. All roots of mother seem to begin with "m" including in Chinese (母亲), English, Bengali. I believe South Indian languages are slightly different (correct me if I'm wrong). So perhaps this is a more modern word.
The guys at Lucasfilm games almost got it perfectly right when designing SCUMM. Even the spitting in Monkey Island 2.
I remember, because I made two of my most researched comments there [1]. :)
I'm no historical linguist, but I'd take this finding with a bunch of grains of salt. Eurasiatic language families that seek to combine, say, Proto-Indo-European [2] and Altaic [3] languages are pretty controversial, and in general this paper reeks a bit of glottochronology [4], which is a pretty controversial topic in historical linguistics itself.
Wikipedia's Eurasiatic language page actually even has a large section about this very article, including some refutations[5].
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5670947
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glottochronology
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasiatic_languages#Pagel_et_....