Ask HN: How do I make sure my kids are safe online?
Inspired by a recent post ("Ask HN: How do I make sure my non-technical parents are safe online?"). Any tips, trick, software suggestions are welcome.
103 comments
My thoughts as a father of six (ages 10-17):
1. Teach your kids that the most important thing is to treat other people with respect. The most likely harm to kids comes from bullying. No one wants to think of their kids as a bully, but by focusing on not bullying others is the best way to teach them what to participate in and what not to participate in. They will be able to say they are being bullied.
2. Teach them not to talk to strangers, but understand that Fortnite and other games do and will involve talking to strangers. Most of the other players are kids, but they need to know that just because someone says they are a kid, they can't trust they really are a kid.
3. In order to develop socially, you kids need to be online.
1. Teach your kids that the most important thing is to treat other people with respect. The most likely harm to kids comes from bullying. No one wants to think of their kids as a bully, but by focusing on not bullying others is the best way to teach them what to participate in and what not to participate in. They will be able to say they are being bullied.
2. Teach them not to talk to strangers, but understand that Fortnite and other games do and will involve talking to strangers. Most of the other players are kids, but they need to know that just because someone says they are a kid, they can't trust they really are a kid.
3. In order to develop socially, you kids need to be online.
I know in this case we specifically referencing speaking with strangers online. I generally agree with everything that’s been said there.
However there’s a lot of parents who extend no speaking to strangers in the physical world and I thought it was wiring mentioning: I’m teaching my kids that it’s perfectly safe, polite, and expected to talk to strangers. Everyday we encounter strangers on the street or in a store. What if a child needed directions or help? That would most defiantly be an acceptable time to talk with a stranger. However, I am also teaching my kids that they should never go anywhere with a stranger to be touched by one. Hope that gives a new perspective to a parent out there teaching their kids that they should never speak to strangers.
I guess some parents would feel that their child will more easily resist a lure if they don't even connect with a stranger. It has to be quite some wise 6-year-old to resist the "this puppy needs your help" pitch. On the other hand, most threats of abuse are not from strangers but rather relatives or friends of the parents.
Number 3, this is the most important point. Cutting them off from the internet is forcing social exclusion upon them. If you want unhappy badly adjusted adults place barriers between them and their peer group, isolate them and make them feel powerless by denying them the rights that others around them share.
Denying children, growing up in a digital connected age, access to connected technology is very damaging.
Denying children, growing up in a digital connected age, access to connected technology is very damaging.
while I agree with your position to a point, does the same apply if you're acting from a position of privilege rather than one of denial?
I.e. you have a high income highly educated tech savvy population in your immediate vicinity and you primarily mix with other highly educated high income people physically day to day in your immediate surrounds.
while I agree that it is detrimental for society and problematic for these bubbles to be forming, I'm not immediately seeing the disservice to the child from a locally optimal point of view in denying them media consumption and social networking, if you assume that 'a digitally connected world' is essentially marketing speak to get lower class and less educated people to normalize media consumption and social networking.
By all means I agree a child needs access to, and ideally to understand programming and computers, but I'm not convinced participation in those other activities are necessary from a locally optimal social perspective except to work in the interests of those who control those mediums and want people to participate in them.
obviously?, if you're at a vanilla middle class school and everyone is watching marvel comics, consuming Disney, and sharing their lives on Facebook, and your kids is the only one that isn't, they're going to have a bad time. And I'm not saying I'm a member of that higher class (far from it, although I don't yet take it as a given that I live in a community that doesn't primarily deal face to face, or that my neighbors aren't for the most part highly educated). indeed, I would say this attitude that adtech and media consumption and large scale social networking is harmful isn't a strange position to take amongst those with experience with those things. Like junk food and trash television, sometimes the ability to exclude is a privilege, not a cost...
I.e. you have a high income highly educated tech savvy population in your immediate vicinity and you primarily mix with other highly educated high income people physically day to day in your immediate surrounds.
while I agree that it is detrimental for society and problematic for these bubbles to be forming, I'm not immediately seeing the disservice to the child from a locally optimal point of view in denying them media consumption and social networking, if you assume that 'a digitally connected world' is essentially marketing speak to get lower class and less educated people to normalize media consumption and social networking.
By all means I agree a child needs access to, and ideally to understand programming and computers, but I'm not convinced participation in those other activities are necessary from a locally optimal social perspective except to work in the interests of those who control those mediums and want people to participate in them.
obviously?, if you're at a vanilla middle class school and everyone is watching marvel comics, consuming Disney, and sharing their lives on Facebook, and your kids is the only one that isn't, they're going to have a bad time. And I'm not saying I'm a member of that higher class (far from it, although I don't yet take it as a given that I live in a community that doesn't primarily deal face to face, or that my neighbors aren't for the most part highly educated). indeed, I would say this attitude that adtech and media consumption and large scale social networking is harmful isn't a strange position to take amongst those with experience with those things. Like junk food and trash television, sometimes the ability to exclude is a privilege, not a cost...
I completely agree! It took a while for us to understand that.
I'd add to that excellent list, talk to them about what are the things on the internet that are bad, explain why you think they are bad, and they should not go there. Do go into morale/ethical issues as well as legal issues and consequences.
Explain that until they are old enough you will walk on them and check what they are doing, and do so regularly.
Explain that until they are old enough you will walk on them and check what they are doing, and do so regularly.
If there is an advice I can offer out of my experience as a kid: Be friends with them, and don’t push too hard that they don’t make mistakes.
My dad wasn’t very friendly with me as a kid, and got angry quickly whenever I made mistakes. So I grew up with a fragile personality, prone to addictions, and always trying to do things behind his back.
Even though we didn’t have internet at home until I was 18, I always took money behind my parents back and skip classes to go to the internet cafe. He also restricted the set of TV channels we can watch, but I knew how to have my “secret” set of channels that I can easily add/remove whenever my parents weren’t home.
I’ve discovered a lot of dark corners in the internet, and developed a porn addition since the age of 13 which I’m still struggling with (I’m 25 now).
It’s always a good idea to setup a DNS filter to avoid accidental harmful content or define a screen time, but keep in mind that a determined kid can be as smart as you are and bypass it, or can encounter such content via their friends smartphones or other means. The best you can do is to educate them to make conscious good choices when they browse the internet, educate them so that they can define their own screen time and understand why it is a good idea. And be a person of trust to them : Make them feel you respect their privacy and trust them, and when they do something wrong, talk to them quietly about it, it would have a much better effect that expressing anger.
You want that when your kids find harmful content come to you and say : “Hey dad, I saw such and such on YouTube”, so that you can educate them about it, not that they continue watching it behind your back.
My dad wasn’t very friendly with me as a kid, and got angry quickly whenever I made mistakes. So I grew up with a fragile personality, prone to addictions, and always trying to do things behind his back.
Even though we didn’t have internet at home until I was 18, I always took money behind my parents back and skip classes to go to the internet cafe. He also restricted the set of TV channels we can watch, but I knew how to have my “secret” set of channels that I can easily add/remove whenever my parents weren’t home.
I’ve discovered a lot of dark corners in the internet, and developed a porn addition since the age of 13 which I’m still struggling with (I’m 25 now).
It’s always a good idea to setup a DNS filter to avoid accidental harmful content or define a screen time, but keep in mind that a determined kid can be as smart as you are and bypass it, or can encounter such content via their friends smartphones or other means. The best you can do is to educate them to make conscious good choices when they browse the internet, educate them so that they can define their own screen time and understand why it is a good idea. And be a person of trust to them : Make them feel you respect their privacy and trust them, and when they do something wrong, talk to them quietly about it, it would have a much better effect that expressing anger.
You want that when your kids find harmful content come to you and say : “Hey dad, I saw such and such on YouTube”, so that you can educate them about it, not that they continue watching it behind your back.
At what age?
I have two daughters age 7 and 9. But tips for other ages are more than welcome.
Have you considered getting your own non-isp supplied network gear, running a firewall and just monitoring it, setting up rules and triggers, etc?
That's what I'm doing at home, I also monitor news for threats happening and some sample payloads, IPs, and add to my block list.
Its not bulletproof, but I'd say 70% at least gets blocked.
That's what I'm doing at home, I also monitor news for threats happening and some sample payloads, IPs, and add to my block list.
Its not bulletproof, but I'd say 70% at least gets blocked.
Sorry to jump in, but is it possible to monitor for cyber bullying using these methods?
Chat apps encrypt the messages as they are sent over the network preventing you from monitoring them.
This is where correlation would have to occur.
You see your son/daughter upset at 5:30 PM.
Suppose logs show your son/daughter was accessing IPs associated with Facebook/Messenger at 5:28 PM.
One could reasonably infer that something/someone upset them.
You see your son/daughter upset at 5:30 PM.
Suppose logs show your son/daughter was accessing IPs associated with Facebook/Messenger at 5:28 PM.
One could reasonably infer that something/someone upset them.
How would that work? I can’t see how the surveillance software would distinguish a benign message from a malign one. For example ”you’re so cool” could be either a compliment or an insult, depending on the context.
There is plenty of software to monitor your kids' activity online. One thing that is sometimes overlooked is watching out for cyber-bullying. Contrary to what many think, this is usually caused by classmates from the offline world and is spread using anonymous apps or messaging apps, especially Snapchat.
Using technology is a good tool for this kind of problem and lets face it, we're here because we love playing with tech. However, I would encourage you to sit down and talk to your children about what it means to be safe online, steps they can take to stay safe, and to reinforce the idea that if they are unsure, it's ok for them to ask you or your spouse for guidance or support.
Qustodio is pretty good.
As a former child, I have some insight, I think. Everything is just my opinion and I claim no authority on the subject. Your mileage may vary, especially depending on your childs age. Mine is too young for the net so this is mostly based on my experiences, the experience of friends with kids, etc.
I don't personally agree with using software to monitor activity for a few reasons. There are two main reasons for my opinion of this: It rapidly erodes the trust between you and your child, and I tend to stay away from any tech targetted at/for kids (or parents for the purpose of monitoring kids) due to the numerous scandals (insecure, data problems, whatever).
The single biggest influencing factor for online safety, in my opinion, is education. Explaining what the internet is, how it works, etc. _without fear mongering_. Present the dangers, and the benefits, without bias. The best way to approach it is by being honest. There are dangers, here's the reality of them, here's how you should deal with them, and here's when you can come to me without fear of judgement. The key here: don't try to "scare them straight" - it doesn't work. Just be honest.
More helpful than any monitoring is encouraging a home where your kids want to come to you with their problems, instead of hide their problems from you. In my (admittedly anecdotl) experiences, monitoring widens the gap between parent and child - not closes it. Don't forget that kids deserve some privacy in their lives, too.
In general, I think it comes down to "be a good parent". Be available, be helpful. Educate. Don't lie or overexaggerate to get a point across - no matter how valid the point. Ask about your childs day and try to pick up on non-verbal cues that something might be going awry.
The internet is out there, your child is going to find it. Help them make it through that, rather than shelter from that.
Thanks for listening to my tedtalk
I don't personally agree with using software to monitor activity for a few reasons. There are two main reasons for my opinion of this: It rapidly erodes the trust between you and your child, and I tend to stay away from any tech targetted at/for kids (or parents for the purpose of monitoring kids) due to the numerous scandals (insecure, data problems, whatever).
The single biggest influencing factor for online safety, in my opinion, is education. Explaining what the internet is, how it works, etc. _without fear mongering_. Present the dangers, and the benefits, without bias. The best way to approach it is by being honest. There are dangers, here's the reality of them, here's how you should deal with them, and here's when you can come to me without fear of judgement. The key here: don't try to "scare them straight" - it doesn't work. Just be honest.
More helpful than any monitoring is encouraging a home where your kids want to come to you with their problems, instead of hide their problems from you. In my (admittedly anecdotl) experiences, monitoring widens the gap between parent and child - not closes it. Don't forget that kids deserve some privacy in their lives, too.
In general, I think it comes down to "be a good parent". Be available, be helpful. Educate. Don't lie or overexaggerate to get a point across - no matter how valid the point. Ask about your childs day and try to pick up on non-verbal cues that something might be going awry.
The internet is out there, your child is going to find it. Help them make it through that, rather than shelter from that.
Thanks for listening to my tedtalk
I strongly agree regarding the monitoring. I have a hard time seeing myself monitoring what my kids do online. I would have been furious if my parents would have done that to me. I definitely agree that kids have a right to privacy.
IMO, trust is vital when trying to raise stable and self-aware persons. If my kids will do really stupid stuff online I think I would rather take away their phones for a limited time rather than monitor what they do.
IMO, trust is vital when trying to raise stable and self-aware persons. If my kids will do really stupid stuff online I think I would rather take away their phones for a limited time rather than monitor what they do.
I don't think it's about trust. Kids are kids, inexperienced. An extra, distant oversight may be required when talking about safety. The stakes are too high. It's like having a learners permit that requires someone with a license be in the car.
Same thing about drugs, pregnancy, STD, etc... The stakes are too high to just rely on apparent understanding.
I agree 100% about education. Educate, but verify (in a healthy way).
Just my 2cents.
Same thing about drugs, pregnancy, STD, etc... The stakes are too high to just rely on apparent understanding.
I agree 100% about education. Educate, but verify (in a healthy way).
Just my 2cents.
Driving is technical and stakes are higher (literal death if the wrong move is made) - it makes sense to have a more active monitoring system (learners permit) for that.
>Same thing about drugs, pregnancy, STD, etc... The stakes are too high to just rely on apparent understanding.
Drugs is not prevented by monitoring - but by education. Pregnancy is not prevented by monitoring - but by education. STD's are not prevented by monitoring - but by education.
>I agree 100% about education. Educate, but verify (in a healthy way).
I do agree, there is a bit of a balance to be struck and being able to verify gives a lot of relief to the parents.
>Same thing about drugs, pregnancy, STD, etc... The stakes are too high to just rely on apparent understanding.
Drugs is not prevented by monitoring - but by education. Pregnancy is not prevented by monitoring - but by education. STD's are not prevented by monitoring - but by education.
>I agree 100% about education. Educate, but verify (in a healthy way).
I do agree, there is a bit of a balance to be struck and being able to verify gives a lot of relief to the parents.
I know many kids who went on birth control the minute parents discovered sexual activity or interest. So pregnancy was definitely prevented by monitoring.
It’s also pretty handy for improving education and conversations.
It’s also pretty handy for improving education and conversations.
IMO, knowledge of sexual activity comes from education and trust, not from monitoring. I know several teenagers whose parents didn't know about their sexual activity until much later than it started, even though the parents thought they were monitoring for it.
Others have a conversation with their parents before they start, because they trust them. Those are the parents you want to be.
Others have a conversation with their parents before they start, because they trust them. Those are the parents you want to be.
IMO, kids need help understanding the world and doing the right thing. I think this, like much of parenting, comes down to anecdote swapping and so it’s part of the struggle to learn about how to do well.
I don’t know what kind of parents I want to be and wish I had the certainty you do in this area.
I don’t know what kind of parents I want to be and wish I had the certainty you do in this area.
I've seen kids (and adults for that matter!) pretty much universally respond well to people who treat them with respect, and as an equal (in principle if not experience) partner in their growth process.
I agree that kids need help understanding the world. My point is that they will accept it (and even seek it) if they are respected and trusted.
I agree that kids need help understanding the world. My point is that they will accept it (and even seek it) if they are respected and trusted.
Learners permits don't actively prevent anyone from driving. A very clear line is crossed when rule enforcement becomes active, and it will immediately induce a "fuck the authority" attitude in anyone, of any age. Sex and drugs aren't handled via urine tests and chastity belts by civilized people.
I think in general this is good advice for parents. Long before the internet, kids in my parents and grandparents generation would've avoided many cases of abuse had they been brought up in a environment where they could come to their parents with problems without fear of judgment/punishment.
Education and monitoring aren’t exclusive. If you’ve ever been a sysadmin, it’s kind of the same. There’s tons of training and you don’t livestream what the kids doing, but you want some auditing and reporting when stuff breaks and you need to track it down.
I think it’s valuable to get insight from kids and ex-kids, but I think it’s more important to get insight from parents and now you can even get insight from parents who were once digital kids.
I think it’s valuable to get insight from kids and ex-kids, but I think it’s more important to get insight from parents and now you can even get insight from parents who were once digital kids.
I didn't say they were exclusive, at all. I said that I don't like monitoring software for two reasons. I then explained my opinion on the question the parent poster asked - which is that education and fostering an open/trusting relationship is, in my opinion, the best method. Not the only, or exclusive method.
I appreciate the backhand compliment regarding any insight I provided, though.
I appreciate the backhand compliment regarding any insight I provided, though.
My compliment wasn’t backhanded.
My confusion is that describing a situation of education doesn’t remove the need for monitoring. I missed the part where monitoring wasn’t useful and read a bit about education. I think if you described the anti-monitoring independent part separately than education it would help because the entire education suggestion can be carried out in addition to monitoring.
My confusion is that describing a situation of education doesn’t remove the need for monitoring. I missed the part where monitoring wasn’t useful and read a bit about education. I think if you described the anti-monitoring independent part separately than education it would help because the entire education suggestion can be carried out in addition to monitoring.
>I think it’s valuable to get insight from kids and ex-kids, but I think it’s more important to get insight from parents[...]
Reads pretty back-handedly considering I mentioned that I am a parent. Even if I didn't or wasn't, it reads (to me, at least) as "pat on the head for writing something, but let the adults speak". Where adults = people with kids, and adults without kids can't supply as valuable of an opinion. Which really, is kind of silly when you think about it. I clearly remember many things my parents did which created distance between us, eroded trust, or did the opposite. Why are my experiences with my parents not as valuable?
Anywho, I could just be tired and reading malice into it, when it wasnt intended. If that's the case, my apologies. I'm trying to get into the habit of reading in a positive light, rather than a negative one - but I read this with a negative light.
Reads pretty back-handedly considering I mentioned that I am a parent. Even if I didn't or wasn't, it reads (to me, at least) as "pat on the head for writing something, but let the adults speak". Where adults = people with kids, and adults without kids can't supply as valuable of an opinion. Which really, is kind of silly when you think about it. I clearly remember many things my parents did which created distance between us, eroded trust, or did the opposite. Why are my experiences with my parents not as valuable?
Anywho, I could just be tired and reading malice into it, when it wasnt intended. If that's the case, my apologies. I'm trying to get into the habit of reading in a positive light, rather than a negative one - but I read this with a negative light.
What do you think of censoring, like blocking porn sites and possibly obscure sites that might depict awful gore? Do you think education suffices? At what age?
I want to agree with everything you said, but there's some crazy things on the net. With children being the curious and impressionable creatures that they are, I find it scary to think how much they could be influenced by what they happen to come upon or search on a whim.
I want to agree with everything you said, but there's some crazy things on the net. With children being the curious and impressionable creatures that they are, I find it scary to think how much they could be influenced by what they happen to come upon or search on a whim.
Doesn’t kids mostly handle that stuff on their own? E.g. by refusing to watch. When I was in junior high some guys would go to the computer lab and visit really vile gore sites. I never did though. From what they told me it just seemed repulsive enough that I never visited those sites.
You never did, but they did. I don't know why it was more repulsive for you, but without knowing the difference between you and them, it doesn't seem like something that can be relied upon.
Alas that difference is the only thing that will actually matter; a curious enough kid will find a venue to circumvent restriction (friend's house, Internet cafe)
Spot on. I guess it’s the same thing with alcohol and cigarettes. If the kids want to try it, they will find the stuff. (FWIW, I didn’t smoke a cigarette until I was 20 or so. I was curious, just not about tobacco.)
[deleted]
If your child is watching gore vids on the internet then the solution is to sit down and have a very serious talk to the kid -- not to rely on a technical solution to prevent it.
There’s a lot of stuff that I saw that I wish I hadn’t. For young kids I think blocking is the only way to potentially help as by the time you sit down with them about gore vids, they’ve already seen them.
It’s pretty much impossible to fully block whatever you consider negative. But you might be able to reduce it or make it less accessible.
It’s pretty much impossible to fully block whatever you consider negative. But you might be able to reduce it or make it less accessible.
Sure, but how do you find out if a child is seeing such things without monitoring? Let them get comfortable enough that they don't feel like they have to hide that kind of thing from you?
Monitoring doesn't have to be tech. It could be something as simple as computer use happens in family areas during formative years.
Also if kids are comfortable talking to you about what they do because parents are understanding rather than judgemental ("how dare you watch X" etc) then they're more likely to tell you if they do come across something like that accidentally.
(My kids are <2 and <0 right now, but I teach teenagers about technology for a living and kids self-report dodgy stuff all the time.)
Also if kids are comfortable talking to you about what they do because parents are understanding rather than judgemental ("how dare you watch X" etc) then they're more likely to tell you if they do come across something like that accidentally.
(My kids are <2 and <0 right now, but I teach teenagers about technology for a living and kids self-report dodgy stuff all the time.)
The parent comment I replied to was about blocking, not monitoring.
Monitoring is a whole other matter.
Monitoring is a whole other matter.
The parent comment I replied to was about avoiding monitoring in favor of education. I replied asking if education was considered sufficient on its own or if blocking was also desirable in addition to educating. You replied that instead of blocking one should just talk to them if they're seeing stuff they're not supposed to.
Unless you rely on catching them by accident, that seems to reintroduce the need for monitoring that we were avoiding, so I replied asking how we're supposed to know such things without it.
Monitoring is related. The whole subthread is about avoiding it.
Unless you rely on catching them by accident, that seems to reintroduce the need for monitoring that we were avoiding, so I replied asking how we're supposed to know such things without it.
Monitoring is related. The whole subthread is about avoiding it.
Sorry, I misunderstood you then.
For what it's worth, I couldn't even monitor all my teenager's Internet traffic even if I wanted to. We have had the "there's a lot of wierd stuff on the Net" talk, and there has been other kids at school who apparently MMS'ed some pretty bad stuff to the other kids, which resulted in a very productive discussion about peer pressure and the importance of being responsible.
I believe that approach is better than trying to control everything. Otherwise you'll simply end up with a bunch of kids in a small bubble that bursts when they move out, and then the World will simply come crashing down on them no matter what. It's better to prepare them for what's to come.
For what it's worth, I couldn't even monitor all my teenager's Internet traffic even if I wanted to. We have had the "there's a lot of wierd stuff on the Net" talk, and there has been other kids at school who apparently MMS'ed some pretty bad stuff to the other kids, which resulted in a very productive discussion about peer pressure and the importance of being responsible.
I believe that approach is better than trying to control everything. Otherwise you'll simply end up with a bunch of kids in a small bubble that bursts when they move out, and then the World will simply come crashing down on them no matter what. It's better to prepare them for what's to come.
Content ("porn sites", "awful gore") is a relatively insignificant issue compared to the time sink of useless junk. There are so many mind-dulling videos that would be rated G. There are so many mind-dulling games. Your kid can spend 16 hours a day listening to a talking orange or driving a tank.
Really, just focus on the time sink.
Really, just focus on the time sink.
This takes more effort but may be the best long-term solution.
Do everything possible to make sure they stay away from YouTube, particularly their YT for kids app.
Can you elaborate on why YT for kids app is bad? Long time ago, I tried to develop a similar app (kidsfriend.ly) which provides safe videos from YT but failed to do so because it's impossible to control that Ads YT added during the watching.
I think in terms of safety there are bigger fish to fry than YT.
There certainly are bigger fish, but YT is an easy one to stop while working on those bigger fish.
I suppose if you only pick a single site to block for your kids, you get the most bang for your buck by blocking YT.
I suppose if you only pick a single site to block for your kids, you get the most bang for your buck by blocking YT.
You'd be better off blocking a bunch of porn and gore than something with relatively less 18plus content. And why YT Kids of all apps. Isn't that tailored for younger audiences
My issue with YT kids is that there is a lot of weird content that feeds into screen addiction. I’ve never seen porn, but seen rotting animals, conspiracy theories, and lots of annoying, asshole kids constantly talking over mundane tasks. Not so bad in small bursts, but with hours and hours it’s a bad influence on kids.
And of course, the ads are terrible.
My problem is that it is tailored for young audiences.
And of course, the ads are terrible.
My problem is that it is tailored for young audiences.
It depends on the age of the kids, and personal situation of course. But as an app specifically targeted for kids - particularly by a big company - it is the absolute worst possible thing on the Internet.
I have 2 children. The greatest menace on line to them is addiction. I have blocking and monitoring software (Kaspersky), and it prevents me of arguing and fighting about turning down the devices. It doesn't really solve the problem, but at least relieves me of a lot of stress. Without it is really difficult just to take them out to do anything.
As all the fathers I think they are smart and intelligent. We talk not just about the perils of the Internet, but also of the world at large. I tell them the etiquette on and offline. I think the monitoring functions are almost useless. They get annoyed and sometimes angry, like when he searched for Isis, the Egyptian goddess, and it was blocked due to terrorist category match. I really don't know if it will be necessary when they start to search for pornography.
BTW, Kaspersky has a terrible interface. I really hate it, but other options are much more expensive or does not work (e.g. Windows 10 parenting features).
As all the fathers I think they are smart and intelligent. We talk not just about the perils of the Internet, but also of the world at large. I tell them the etiquette on and offline. I think the monitoring functions are almost useless. They get annoyed and sometimes angry, like when he searched for Isis, the Egyptian goddess, and it was blocked due to terrorist category match. I really don't know if it will be necessary when they start to search for pornography.
BTW, Kaspersky has a terrible interface. I really hate it, but other options are much more expensive or does not work (e.g. Windows 10 parenting features).
You might want to read this quite short article by scholar Elza Dunkels: http://cdn.agilitycms.com/wacc-global/resources/md-2014-1/6-...
I'll tell you one thing not to do. Don't require that they share their passwords with you.
Everyone I know whose parents had their passwords had a second set of secret accounts, and felt like they had to hide things from their parents.
Case in point: I rented a room to a girl once (she was 19) whose mom came along with her to every meeting, and bragged about how her and her daughter shared an email address.
When I was at the house once after she moved in and her mom was gone, without even bringing it up, she was very proud of the fact that she had a secret email address, a secret boyfriend that her mom didn't know about, and a secret stash of "sexy clothes" that her mom didn't know about.
That right there made me realize the futility of trying to spy on your kids. Kids are smart and they see each other every day. They will figure out how to get around your technology and share that info with others.
As others have said, honest conversation seems to be the best answer. Just like before the internet existed.
Everyone I know whose parents had their passwords had a second set of secret accounts, and felt like they had to hide things from their parents.
Case in point: I rented a room to a girl once (she was 19) whose mom came along with her to every meeting, and bragged about how her and her daughter shared an email address.
When I was at the house once after she moved in and her mom was gone, without even bringing it up, she was very proud of the fact that she had a secret email address, a secret boyfriend that her mom didn't know about, and a secret stash of "sexy clothes" that her mom didn't know about.
That right there made me realize the futility of trying to spy on your kids. Kids are smart and they see each other every day. They will figure out how to get around your technology and share that info with others.
As others have said, honest conversation seems to be the best answer. Just like before the internet existed.
>Don't require that they share their passwords with you
I just realized I have the same password as my dad because we used to do project together (when I was 10-11) and the habit is hard to die.
I just realized I have the same password as my dad because we used to do project together (when I was 10-11) and the habit is hard to die.
I was thinking 5-10 year old kids, not 19. At that point I’m not too concerned with keeping them safe on the Internet.
I’m not sure how a five year old could not share passwords, much less remember.
I’m not sure how a five year old could not share passwords, much less remember.
Well she was 19 at the time but the password sharing started when she was a pre-teen.
How did you know so much intimate information about this little girl who was just your tenant? Maybe another part of keeping kids safe online should be blocking domains like SeekingArrangement.
She told me all of this the moment her mom was gone. I was doing maintenance on the house at the time so I pretty much had to listen and smile and nod.
It starts at 5.
oh, cool. you're jedberg. thanks for the cool stuff you did back in the day on that one website ~.
You can try SnapAlert (https://snapalert.ai/) or Bark (https://www.bark.us/)
I don't have any experience yet, but it is something I'm equally concerned about as a newish father.
First issues seem like non- negotiable to me: ad-blockers, no social media while young, no YouTube/streaming while very young. Shows or television downloaded and scheduled locally/limited to stop the addiction and consumerist problem. I don't have any objections to physically blocking things at a very young age. Education-wise all the usual stuff about online behaviour and safety: don't use your real name, don't give it your details, don't click on ads, or anything sent to you, etc.
No explicit media consumption devices: ipads and phones.
The main issues I have are questions of when and how to introduce more computer time and access and how/when to drop these controls.
I'm less concerned about porn (assuming young kids aren't really interested in it, and by the time he is interested in it I doubt there's much I can do bar education) than I am digital + media addiction, consumerism, gore/ shock sites and nutter ideologies/bubbles (although again on that last I'm assuming education, an actual relationship and exposure probably inoculates best).
Any thoughts on when and how to introduce kids to the digital world when my main fear/thing to protect them from is digital consumption, addiction, consumerism and tech companies?
First issues seem like non- negotiable to me: ad-blockers, no social media while young, no YouTube/streaming while very young. Shows or television downloaded and scheduled locally/limited to stop the addiction and consumerist problem. I don't have any objections to physically blocking things at a very young age. Education-wise all the usual stuff about online behaviour and safety: don't use your real name, don't give it your details, don't click on ads, or anything sent to you, etc.
No explicit media consumption devices: ipads and phones.
The main issues I have are questions of when and how to introduce more computer time and access and how/when to drop these controls.
I'm less concerned about porn (assuming young kids aren't really interested in it, and by the time he is interested in it I doubt there's much I can do bar education) than I am digital + media addiction, consumerism, gore/ shock sites and nutter ideologies/bubbles (although again on that last I'm assuming education, an actual relationship and exposure probably inoculates best).
Any thoughts on when and how to introduce kids to the digital world when my main fear/thing to protect them from is digital consumption, addiction, consumerism and tech companies?
I'm pretty much in the same boat. I would also agree with all the anti-advertising stuff. Keeping them off tracking is paramount. The phones thing as well. I have also been thinking about the ramp of releasing restrictions.
With respect to pornography, I was collecting it since I was 13. Yes it makes parents uncomfortable. I don't think it has made me a worse person, primarily because I was raised to still respect people. The problem with porn is when other things (ads again) imply that hypersexualisation is normal, and the boundary is blurred. Problems with pornography also get raised when peers talk about it as if they can emulate it. All of these things are out of your control.
I am already thinking of a pi-hole like system. I sort of have this dream of a 90's early 00's filter system, but that can't last much beyond 10 years of age. Further, with DoTLS etc, ad blockers are going to become more difficult. Maybe later on, once a mobile phone becomes neccessary, it needs to be a smartphone with a custom rom with full app isolation and anything and everything to cull tracking.
Despite all these measures, I suspect the only real solution is to keep your kids occupied with hands on stuff that is not on the computer. Treat computers as a tool. You use it to program other devices. Do some gardening (if you can). Use computers to track growth and research techniques.
With respect to pornography, I was collecting it since I was 13. Yes it makes parents uncomfortable. I don't think it has made me a worse person, primarily because I was raised to still respect people. The problem with porn is when other things (ads again) imply that hypersexualisation is normal, and the boundary is blurred. Problems with pornography also get raised when peers talk about it as if they can emulate it. All of these things are out of your control.
I am already thinking of a pi-hole like system. I sort of have this dream of a 90's early 00's filter system, but that can't last much beyond 10 years of age. Further, with DoTLS etc, ad blockers are going to become more difficult. Maybe later on, once a mobile phone becomes neccessary, it needs to be a smartphone with a custom rom with full app isolation and anything and everything to cull tracking.
Despite all these measures, I suspect the only real solution is to keep your kids occupied with hands on stuff that is not on the computer. Treat computers as a tool. You use it to program other devices. Do some gardening (if you can). Use computers to track growth and research techniques.
I get that this is HN, and "tech" is the solution to everything, but an android app or consumer router setting are not going to protect your kids from: predatory YouTube content (we all remember the epidemic of Spiderman humping Elsa, right?) or excessive advertising on YouTube that their brains aren't even capable of recognizing/processing (we all know about Logan Paul content that is basically a 20 minute ad being targetted at pre-teen kids, at-one-time available on YT Kids app, right?).
It's not going to protect them from being pressured for nudes. It's not going to stop them from committing felonies and producing and transmitting underage pornography. It's not going to stop rumors and gossip and drama from spreading across Facebook even if your router is off for the night.
My brother is a middle school math teacher. Find the nearest middle school teacher you know and ask them how pervasive these issues are. Just from their small middle school, they had dozens and dozens of students disciplined, just for nudes. One was supposedly going to be charged after the 6th+ time of soliciting nudes from a fellow student and then sharing them. The quiet nerdy kid built a categorized Dropbox collection from the entire school and was quietly sharing it. It means so little to them.
I'm actually sort of getting worked up here thinking about this. If you've sat on your hands until your kid is 12, you have no trust or dialog with them, god bless your hearts for thinking a firewall or Android app is going to help a single ounce. All you've done is setup a tiny puzzle. Most of us likely know the workarounds, they will figure it out, just like I did 15 years ago.
Of course, I think "tech" is probably an invaluable tool for setting time limits and helping with screen addiction, but it's not going to fix any of the other psychologically damaging aspects of youth+tech.
EDIT: I really appreciate and would like to echo jedberg and ziddoap's comments here as well.
It's not going to protect them from being pressured for nudes. It's not going to stop them from committing felonies and producing and transmitting underage pornography. It's not going to stop rumors and gossip and drama from spreading across Facebook even if your router is off for the night.
My brother is a middle school math teacher. Find the nearest middle school teacher you know and ask them how pervasive these issues are. Just from their small middle school, they had dozens and dozens of students disciplined, just for nudes. One was supposedly going to be charged after the 6th+ time of soliciting nudes from a fellow student and then sharing them. The quiet nerdy kid built a categorized Dropbox collection from the entire school and was quietly sharing it. It means so little to them.
I'm actually sort of getting worked up here thinking about this. If you've sat on your hands until your kid is 12, you have no trust or dialog with them, god bless your hearts for thinking a firewall or Android app is going to help a single ounce. All you've done is setup a tiny puzzle. Most of us likely know the workarounds, they will figure it out, just like I did 15 years ago.
Of course, I think "tech" is probably an invaluable tool for setting time limits and helping with screen addiction, but it's not going to fix any of the other psychologically damaging aspects of youth+tech.
EDIT: I really appreciate and would like to echo jedberg and ziddoap's comments here as well.
”One was supposedly going to be charged after the 6th+ time of soliciting nudes from a fellow student and then sharing them. The quiet nerdy kid built a categorized Dropbox collection from the entire school and was quietly sharing it.”
Ouch. That’s nasty. I wonder though, is it really a technological problem? I wonder how those guys were raised and what role models they had if they so blatantly ignores other persons’ privacy. Of course it’s technology that enables the rapid spread of photos etc. But their parents and other adults around them are still responsible for trying to teach them how to behave decently.
Ouch. That’s nasty. I wonder though, is it really a technological problem? I wonder how those guys were raised and what role models they had if they so blatantly ignores other persons’ privacy. Of course it’s technology that enables the rapid spread of photos etc. But their parents and other adults around them are still responsible for trying to teach them how to behave decently.
That's exactly my point. I knew enough to be "destructive" in middle school with the school computers, but I chose not to, because of how I was raised. It wasn't that the school group policy was effective, but rather that I understood running "fdisk" on the school PC would have more serious consequences than if I just showed people how to use OLE and Sound Recorder to unmute the computer speakers.
Technology makes a lot of things easier. I think the most effective thing is raising kids so that they want to do the right thing. But I also sort of think this all bottoms out on active, involved, caring parenting.
Technology makes a lot of things easier. I think the most effective thing is raising kids so that they want to do the right thing. But I also sort of think this all bottoms out on active, involved, caring parenting.
Something I struggle with, and need to do a better job of, myself: Set a good example for them of not being addicted to screens.
Be real and honest with them. Tell them there are predators out there, tell them people will try to get them to do awful things on the internet, on camera, in video games. Tell them there are an infinite number of bullies and hateful people on the internet. Better yet: Give them the novel Ready Player One, trust them a little bit, and tell them to be extremely cautious.
”tell them to be extremely cautious”
To me that sounds like encouraging them to be afraid. I would rather try to assist my kids to develop a sound judgement.
To me that sounds like encouraging them to be afraid. I would rather try to assist my kids to develop a sound judgement.
I've been looking at installing Pihole and OpenDNS.. to block a bunch of stuff automatically.
Other than that, my kids now being 12 and 15: their computers are desktop machines in the kitchen. My wife and I look over their shoulders throughout their online time, and help keep them on track.. as well as having very open discussions about which things to look out for.
Use any excuse to teach a lesson, but keep it short. One example, my youngest was asking about online advertising and "what's the big deal?". I explained how easy and quickly their movement online is tracked, then decided to show it: we loaded up google and did a fairly unique search, in this case alligator skin cowboy boots for kids, and clicked a few links.. then asked her to go to a big newspaper site.. lo and behold a banner ad for the same item we searched for less than minute ago. Got the point across rather firmly.
Spend time with them, talk to them about their interests online, get them to show you sites they go to, Youtube stuff they like, etc. I try to point out new stuff that is "better" than what they are familiar with and sidetrack them with learning sites like Khan Academy.
Teach them how to do research, so they can fact check and know what is a scam. Show them snopes, so they can know how to spot bogus stories..
Oh, and lastly, I have told my kids not to panic if they come across a bad site, just close the window and they should be fine. But do let me know so we can check the machine together afterwards. Yes, that includes porn sites.. I know some of these clicks won't be accidental, but I don't care.
I've done enough tech support that i'd rather they be safe than start hiding stuff from me.
Oh yeah, I really need to sign up for the Family version of 1Password.
Other than that, my kids now being 12 and 15: their computers are desktop machines in the kitchen. My wife and I look over their shoulders throughout their online time, and help keep them on track.. as well as having very open discussions about which things to look out for.
Use any excuse to teach a lesson, but keep it short. One example, my youngest was asking about online advertising and "what's the big deal?". I explained how easy and quickly their movement online is tracked, then decided to show it: we loaded up google and did a fairly unique search, in this case alligator skin cowboy boots for kids, and clicked a few links.. then asked her to go to a big newspaper site.. lo and behold a banner ad for the same item we searched for less than minute ago. Got the point across rather firmly.
Spend time with them, talk to them about their interests online, get them to show you sites they go to, Youtube stuff they like, etc. I try to point out new stuff that is "better" than what they are familiar with and sidetrack them with learning sites like Khan Academy.
Teach them how to do research, so they can fact check and know what is a scam. Show them snopes, so they can know how to spot bogus stories..
Oh, and lastly, I have told my kids not to panic if they come across a bad site, just close the window and they should be fine. But do let me know so we can check the machine together afterwards. Yes, that includes porn sites.. I know some of these clicks won't be accidental, but I don't care.
I've done enough tech support that i'd rather they be safe than start hiding stuff from me.
Oh yeah, I really need to sign up for the Family version of 1Password.
Since your kids are 7 and 9, I suggest a couple of things. First, have them sit with you while you show them how to use sites and basic nettiquite- never share id info with strangers, how to get you and other parent to register for sites, what’s an ad or scam, etc. just spending time with them to talk through everything.
Then get a computer and put it in the main room of your house. Let that computer be the YouTube/Minecraft/roblox/whatever so computer use is around other people. Put an adblocker on it.
Otherwise block YouTube from phones and iPads and such. It’s a cesspool, especially for kids.
Fight social media accounts for as long as you can.
Pay for an email account so they don’t have to use gmail. Pick something easy so they can keep it their whole life.
Look into a smart WiFi hub that lets you set screen time limits. I like the Uniquiti AMPLIFI. You can set profiles for each family member, turn off and on, etc.
Set up screen time limits on devices. Apply limits to the adults as well. They will want to model after you.
Set up a pihole to block ads and whatever else at the network level.
Then get a computer and put it in the main room of your house. Let that computer be the YouTube/Minecraft/roblox/whatever so computer use is around other people. Put an adblocker on it.
Otherwise block YouTube from phones and iPads and such. It’s a cesspool, especially for kids.
Fight social media accounts for as long as you can.
Pay for an email account so they don’t have to use gmail. Pick something easy so they can keep it their whole life.
Look into a smart WiFi hub that lets you set screen time limits. I like the Uniquiti AMPLIFI. You can set profiles for each family member, turn off and on, etc.
Set up screen time limits on devices. Apply limits to the adults as well. They will want to model after you.
Set up a pihole to block ads and whatever else at the network level.
It's a lot easier to keep your kids safe than your parents. Your parents are unlikely interested in learning new things about computers, but they need it for all kinds of important stuff, like spending money and communicating with people. Your kids don't have that issue, and don't have any important credentials to steal. However, if they're to be safe when they grow into adults, it helps to learn while they're young.
I think kids should grow up using PCs and not phones/tablets. I doubt kids can grow up to be computer literate if they spend their screen time in front of smart phones instead of PCs.
Here's what I would do: Put a PC with usable specs and the latest Windows in a semi-public place in the apartment. They're supposed to have some semblance of privacy but still have an adult passing by every now and then. Give them a Windows computer that's isolated from the rest of the network, and set up an unprivileged user with an adblocker. Give them access to the administrator account (or let them figure out the password as you type it in front of them), and tell them to be careful what they run on their computer, especially as admin. Sternly tell them not to plug in USB's/CD's/whatever into any other computer except that one computer which they're allowed to use.
The expectation is that they'll catch some adware sooner or later, download dubious game cracks, and generally mess up their computer. This is fine, you they're supposed to be allowed to experiment in moderation. If you fix something, try to have them around watching so that they see you solve the problem. Another good option is to take the computer away for a few days because "they messed it up, and now it has to be fixed". Even better if they have friends coming over to use the computer, as kids learn a lot from each other. Over time they might try to solve problems themselves and screw up Windows, at which point you'll reinstall it and incidentally wipe all their data.
Let them surf the web, as long as they stay away from porn, violent content, etc. Instruct them to stay pseudonymous, and not to tell people or websites/games who and where they really are. Tell them it's perfectly fine to lie on a login form. Tell them that there are all kinds of people on the internet, that everyone lies on the internet and that websites are competing for their attention. If something is bothering them, they can always just close the computer and talk to you about it. Most importantly, let them make mistakes and learn from them.
I think kids should grow up using PCs and not phones/tablets. I doubt kids can grow up to be computer literate if they spend their screen time in front of smart phones instead of PCs.
Here's what I would do: Put a PC with usable specs and the latest Windows in a semi-public place in the apartment. They're supposed to have some semblance of privacy but still have an adult passing by every now and then. Give them a Windows computer that's isolated from the rest of the network, and set up an unprivileged user with an adblocker. Give them access to the administrator account (or let them figure out the password as you type it in front of them), and tell them to be careful what they run on their computer, especially as admin. Sternly tell them not to plug in USB's/CD's/whatever into any other computer except that one computer which they're allowed to use.
The expectation is that they'll catch some adware sooner or later, download dubious game cracks, and generally mess up their computer. This is fine, you they're supposed to be allowed to experiment in moderation. If you fix something, try to have them around watching so that they see you solve the problem. Another good option is to take the computer away for a few days because "they messed it up, and now it has to be fixed". Even better if they have friends coming over to use the computer, as kids learn a lot from each other. Over time they might try to solve problems themselves and screw up Windows, at which point you'll reinstall it and incidentally wipe all their data.
Let them surf the web, as long as they stay away from porn, violent content, etc. Instruct them to stay pseudonymous, and not to tell people or websites/games who and where they really are. Tell them it's perfectly fine to lie on a login form. Tell them that there are all kinds of people on the internet, that everyone lies on the internet and that websites are competing for their attention. If something is bothering them, they can always just close the computer and talk to you about it. Most importantly, let them make mistakes and learn from them.
I don't want my young kids being exposed to a lot of trash online. But we like to laugh at funny pictures/memes together. So, one weekend I built a primitive tool that lets me share funny images with them: cleanhumor.net
I have a python script that pulls down posts from /r/funny. Reddit has some filtering options in their API, which I use. My script then rejects any that have caption words on my blacklist. It also does OCR to look within the image, and applies the blacklist there, too.
The remaining images I review manually. They show up on my phone along with large "accept" and "reject" buttons. When I click accept, the image and caption become available on that little website I made for my daughters. Many images aren't funny, and I personally still wade through lots of trash. But overall it has been fun for my family.
I have a python script that pulls down posts from /r/funny. Reddit has some filtering options in their API, which I use. My script then rejects any that have caption words on my blacklist. It also does OCR to look within the image, and applies the blacklist there, too.
The remaining images I review manually. They show up on my phone along with large "accept" and "reject" buttons. When I click accept, the image and caption become available on that little website I made for my daughters. Many images aren't funny, and I personally still wade through lots of trash. But overall it has been fun for my family.
Very cool process. I like the resulting site. Now if you could only add an additional “possibly be funny” filter :)
No smartphones or unrestricted access to the internet. No social media.
Have a computer in a common space like the living room for when they want to be online. You don't have to be watching over their shoulder.
You could try to keep up with all the shit you have to be wary of your kids encountering online (e.g., age-inappropriate pornography, political extremism, social media "influencers", games with microtransactions, etc.) or you could be proactive and intentional and just nip it in the bud with how and when and where they have access to the online world at the access point.
There's a reason we wait until kids are 16 to give the freedom to drive a heavy hunk of metal at speeds that can kill themselves or other people. We should seriously re-evaluate when we give them the freedom to encounter the worst of humanity. The internet of the 90s and early 2000s is a distant memory; we live in a world of carefully engineered experiences designed to exploit our minds' flaws, online social environments our minds never evolved to navigate, and a host of other things I could mention that suggest that we should focus on providing childhoods in which they're engaged in things we know to be relatively safe, if not beneficial (e.g., play outside, read books, watch movies, play video games that aren't connected to the internet, etc.).
Have a computer in a common space like the living room for when they want to be online. You don't have to be watching over their shoulder.
You could try to keep up with all the shit you have to be wary of your kids encountering online (e.g., age-inappropriate pornography, political extremism, social media "influencers", games with microtransactions, etc.) or you could be proactive and intentional and just nip it in the bud with how and when and where they have access to the online world at the access point.
There's a reason we wait until kids are 16 to give the freedom to drive a heavy hunk of metal at speeds that can kill themselves or other people. We should seriously re-evaluate when we give them the freedom to encounter the worst of humanity. The internet of the 90s and early 2000s is a distant memory; we live in a world of carefully engineered experiences designed to exploit our minds' flaws, online social environments our minds never evolved to navigate, and a host of other things I could mention that suggest that we should focus on providing childhoods in which they're engaged in things we know to be relatively safe, if not beneficial (e.g., play outside, read books, watch movies, play video games that aren't connected to the internet, etc.).
And also: no Windows. My kid somehow gets Admin access on his Windows laptop. He's 14 years old, from which I conclude that anyone with basic Google search skills can elevate their local privileges to Administrator and do whatever the hell they want, including VPN install, at which point your firewall and parental controls become useless.
This is kind of a moot point. Unless the parents are security professionals it doesn't really matter what OS they use. A teenage boy will learn how to bruteforce /etc/shadow to bypass a porn filter if they're desperate.
Source: that's basically how I got into cybersecurity
Source: that's basically how I got into cybersecurity
Exactly, my parents put BIOS passwords to stop me from using the computer. Over the years I've cracked 4 through literal dictionary attacks (sitting at the computer with an encyclopedia and trying every word) and ~10 by looking when they were typing it. They've also tried unseating the graphical card so that it had to be reseated every time before starting the computer. That took me a bit longer to figure out
christ. how much free time did you have as a kid?
Single user mode on a Mac will let anyone with physical access to the machine create a new admin account.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201573
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201573
Not if you use a firmware password. Which you can enable from recovery mode (accessible by pressing cmd-r at startup), you can find the option in one of the menu bar items. Remember that you’ll have a very hard time recovering your Mac if you lose your firmare and admin password.
The "also no windows" part is rather pointless. Will every kid manage to get admin privileges? No.
It's tough. I've been thinking about this a lot over the years, especially with respect to youtube content -- which is really hit-and-miss to say the least. I'm trying to curate channels I think are ok on www.fugu.tv, and welcome any input.
Talk to them.
Talk to them a lot. If you let them online, then discuss what happens online and your fears about their online activity frankly. Porn, predators, privacy, etc.. There’s no substitute for communication.
I used OpenDNS on my router, and it probably worked for a while, but now I think my kids probably know their way around it, now that my 15 year old is has setup multiple Linux distros on USB drives. I also found a VPN app on his phone once, which will circumvent OpenDNS and anything else I try to do. We had our first online porn accident when he was 8 or 9. He was traumatized by getting caught and became paranoid about letting us interact with his devices or see any of his history, even when he wasn’t doing anything naughty.
Definitely wish I could have held back on games and devices longer, and these days it’s getting more difficult to limit their screen time. Their YouTube use is pretty out of control. OTOH, we had all kinds of fears about our oldest getting too deep into games. We thought he might not make friends because he wouldn’t talk about anything except games, and for a while didn’t want to do anything except play games. It’s mostly passing now, and he seems to be turning out very normal. There was some amount of my wife and I spazzing unnecessarily.
I only know one person who stopped his kids from using devices at all, and his kids turned out truly amazing, but I suspect that’s a really difficult road to go down as a parent.
I used OpenDNS on my router, and it probably worked for a while, but now I think my kids probably know their way around it, now that my 15 year old is has setup multiple Linux distros on USB drives. I also found a VPN app on his phone once, which will circumvent OpenDNS and anything else I try to do. We had our first online porn accident when he was 8 or 9. He was traumatized by getting caught and became paranoid about letting us interact with his devices or see any of his history, even when he wasn’t doing anything naughty.
Definitely wish I could have held back on games and devices longer, and these days it’s getting more difficult to limit their screen time. Their YouTube use is pretty out of control. OTOH, we had all kinds of fears about our oldest getting too deep into games. We thought he might not make friends because he wouldn’t talk about anything except games, and for a while didn’t want to do anything except play games. It’s mostly passing now, and he seems to be turning out very normal. There was some amount of my wife and I spazzing unnecessarily.
I only know one person who stopped his kids from using devices at all, and his kids turned out truly amazing, but I suspect that’s a really difficult road to go down as a parent.
As a non parent, can you go further on the idea of how it would be hard to prevent a kid from using screens and internet until they were much older, like 14 or so?
I grew up in the tv and telephone age, and i simply never had my own of either. I know other kids probably threw tantrums to get theirs, is that what you are talking about?
I grew up in the tv and telephone age, and i simply never had my own of either. I know other kids probably threw tantrums to get theirs, is that what you are talking about?
Sure, I suspect it would be hard because there’s quite a bit of social pressure at school and in the neighborhood - more or less all kids are hooked on screens - and because my experience with trying to limit screen time is that it takes a lot more parenting effort, we have to actively stay on top of it since there are screens in the house, we have to actively provide constructive alternatives and more frequently check on them.
There’s an obvious implication about parenting being more difficult with screens excluded - that using screens is potentially somewhat lazy. As a parent, I think I have been lazy and allowed iPhones and Playstations to keep the kids occupied and let me work on side projects. Road trips with devices is Nirvana compared to not having them; the kids fight for hours without, and it’s silence when they have games.
I didn’t have a screen to myself when I was growing up either, until I camped on the family IBM PCjr as a teenager. This generation just has it quite different than we did, which in a way makes it harder to evaluate what we should do as parents. That said, sitting in front of the TV was something we would do as kids, and also something the adults were warning against.
One way to consider this is to think about whether we adults can go without screen time. I find it pretty hard myself, much harder than it used to be. Of course kids are a different case, but as parents we’re setting an example, and we also have to realize how much of life went online in the last 20 years. It might be harmful to prevent kids from going online entirely. On the other hand, there seems to be an emerging global consensus that considerable limits for kids is healthy and necessary.
There’s an obvious implication about parenting being more difficult with screens excluded - that using screens is potentially somewhat lazy. As a parent, I think I have been lazy and allowed iPhones and Playstations to keep the kids occupied and let me work on side projects. Road trips with devices is Nirvana compared to not having them; the kids fight for hours without, and it’s silence when they have games.
I didn’t have a screen to myself when I was growing up either, until I camped on the family IBM PCjr as a teenager. This generation just has it quite different than we did, which in a way makes it harder to evaluate what we should do as parents. That said, sitting in front of the TV was something we would do as kids, and also something the adults were warning against.
One way to consider this is to think about whether we adults can go without screen time. I find it pretty hard myself, much harder than it used to be. Of course kids are a different case, but as parents we’re setting an example, and we also have to realize how much of life went online in the last 20 years. It might be harmful to prevent kids from going online entirely. On the other hand, there seems to be an emerging global consensus that considerable limits for kids is healthy and necessary.
I think most advice boils down to: If they're very young (under 10 years old) don't let them have their own smart devices just yet. Young or old, don't treat them like felons. Talk to them about the possible dangers of online interaction, but don't give them a (damn good) reason to distrust you. And yes, unfortunately that also means Internet filtering beyond advertising/tracking/known malicious sites. It's futile to try to spy on your kids.
My kids who are not yet teenagers always use a Chromebook, and sign in to their school account. That gives us the same content filters at home that run at the school. And my district does allow some games, so it isn't overly restrictive.
We also talk about it, so when they become a teenager and start to get some freedom, they have some idea of how to behave. We tell them to let us know if they see something that they know we wouldn't approve of... not to get in trouble, but so we can be sure that everything is put into a context that helps them understand what it was, why we don't want them seeing it, and at what point in their life it may or may not be appropriate.
Finally, all the computers are in our living rooms, with the screens facing the room. I'm sure the kids can find times to still look for things I wouldn't like... but at least this adds some transparency to what they are up to. And it feels far less invasive than monitoring.
We also talk about it, so when they become a teenager and start to get some freedom, they have some idea of how to behave. We tell them to let us know if they see something that they know we wouldn't approve of... not to get in trouble, but so we can be sure that everything is put into a context that helps them understand what it was, why we don't want them seeing it, and at what point in their life it may or may not be appropriate.
Finally, all the computers are in our living rooms, with the screens facing the room. I'm sure the kids can find times to still look for things I wouldn't like... but at least this adds some transparency to what they are up to. And it feels far less invasive than monitoring.
I have been fucking around on the internet, without any supervision whatsoever, since I was 12 years old. As far as I can tell, I turned out fine.
Is the internet that much worse than when we were kids?
Is the internet that much worse than when we were kids?
I don't know when you were a kid, but as someone who has been an adult for the entire life of the WWW: yes, it's much worse now than it was even 5 years ago.
I'll give you an example: my kid used to like to watch a show called Peppa Pig, so I would find clips on YouTube. Within about a year, people started posting really disturbing fakes in which Peppa is stabbed, raped, etc. They have the same thumbnails as the real clips, and Youtube suggested them, and autoplayed them after real clips. Including after clips from the official Peppa Pig Youtube channel! Truly a WTF moment for me.
Weird shit has existed on the Internet for decades, but it's only recently that it is being shoveled in front of regular folks as the default experience. I mean, these Peppa videos were the types of content that 4chan folks would have worked really hard to inject into normie websites a decade ago. Now, not only is it super easy to upload them to Youtube, Youtube will promote them to everyone for you! And seemingly not care about it!
It's one thing if a curious 12-year-old goes seeking porn or gross stuff or whatever... there's some inoculation in the fact that you had to go find it.
It's another thing entirely when the default experience for a 5-year-old on Youtube is to get served a video of her little cartoon friend getting murdered.
I'll give you an example: my kid used to like to watch a show called Peppa Pig, so I would find clips on YouTube. Within about a year, people started posting really disturbing fakes in which Peppa is stabbed, raped, etc. They have the same thumbnails as the real clips, and Youtube suggested them, and autoplayed them after real clips. Including after clips from the official Peppa Pig Youtube channel! Truly a WTF moment for me.
Weird shit has existed on the Internet for decades, but it's only recently that it is being shoveled in front of regular folks as the default experience. I mean, these Peppa videos were the types of content that 4chan folks would have worked really hard to inject into normie websites a decade ago. Now, not only is it super easy to upload them to Youtube, Youtube will promote them to everyone for you! And seemingly not care about it!
It's one thing if a curious 12-year-old goes seeking porn or gross stuff or whatever... there's some inoculation in the fact that you had to go find it.
It's another thing entirely when the default experience for a 5-year-old on Youtube is to get served a video of her little cartoon friend getting murdered.
I think it would depend on the age. If you could walk them through different bad things that have happened to kids and relate it to them, they might be more cautious.
My kids are still too young to be online. I know with YouTube if your letting them watch, you have to be very careful about the sidebar
My kids are still too young to be online. I know with YouTube if your letting them watch, you have to be very careful about the sidebar
1. Your job as a parent is to educate them with mature and thoughtful responses to everything that they could experience in the world, say, by the age of 16. At this point your job is over, and you don't keep them safe, they go off and explore. I hope we can agree on that.
2. If that is the goal by age of 16, consider working back on the amount of Independence that gets to that goal. And, what are the key measurable goals when you can check off mentally and say 'this kid is on their way to being an independent adult', at different ages?
3. I would work to foster the idea that the internet is not a toy. You go there with a specific task, you get done what you want to get done, and you walk away. You don't get out the table saw and just fool with it.
4. The way to teach a task oriented approach is to do tasks with your kid on the internet. Side by side. Just like you would teach driving or using a table saw... Or in the case of my neice today, grilling. Questions will come up, mistakes will be made, triumph will happen, and you will do it together.
5. I don't see how kids should have email addresses or open screen time before the age of about 12, when you have seen a level of information maturity and critical thinking. The internet is so wild and wooly, i might ask when you allow a kid to fly airlines by themselves, or take a day in the local city by themselves, is about when they should have open internet time.
I suppose I rankle at the problem statement, keep them safe, instead of 'how do we teach independent thought and action', but i tried to answer your question helpfully and positively.
I suppose I rankle at the problem statement, keep them safe, instead of 'how do we teach independent thought and action', but i tried to answer your question helpfully and positively.
Agreed with all of this except:
"I would work to foster the idea that the internet is not a toy. You go there with a specific task, you get done what you want to get done, and you walk away."
The internet is many things, and the idea that it shouldn't be used for fun seems very odd to me. Like saying "The city is not a toy. You go there with a specific task, you get done what you want to get done, and you walk away." - you'd miss out on a huge amount of what cities have to offer.
The internet is many things, and the idea that it shouldn't be used for fun seems very odd to me. Like saying "The city is not a toy. You go there with a specific task, you get done what you want to get done, and you walk away." - you'd miss out on a huge amount of what cities have to offer.
That might be an interesting attempt to teach kids to use tech meaningfully, rather than fiddle around with Reddit, YouTube & co like most of us. Whether that will rally succeed is another question. The internet is an eternal evolutionary struggle for "most captivating activity" and our brains are not equipped to overcome all the nudges and addictive designs.