Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game(rockpapershotgun.com)
rockpapershotgun.com
Deus Ex at 20: The oral history of a pivotal PC game
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2020/06/22/deus-ex-at-20-the-oral-history-of-a-pivotal-pc-game/
128 comments
Money not being an issue can still happen: See Valve, which have a money printing machine in Steam, along with a few long living, lucrative games. Work on Half Life 3 never really stopped , and we had a 13 year wait between Half Life Alyx and Half Life 2, episode 2. Sources say that the internal standards for a Half Life 3 are so high, it led to many restarts and a lot of work being thrown away.
But the real reason we don't have games that run as long as Deus Ex is that the cost of reworking what was already there have exploded since those days. If you are predicting a 3 year release cycle(not unheard of to this day at large publishers), and you are delayed by 2 extra years, the hardware you are targeting is different, and the amount of art you have to upgrade or completely remake is crazy compared to Deus Ex. With teams being far larger than they were to meet a 3 year plan, marshaling a modern AAA game team to rework large parts of a game has little to do with managing to do the same with a team from the late 20th century. A linear increase in team size gets you a geometric increase in coordination costs.
That said, we still have small teams that might work on a game for a very long time, but they have to aim far lower technically, or in scope. You can make a beautiful, shorter game with a small team, like Outer Wilds. You can also make a 2d game, and tweak your game to perfection, like Stardew Valley. At those sizes, saying "when it's done", and letting yourself change direction and scope is fine. But try that with the Red Dead Redemption 2 team, trying to be at the forefront of everything. Without a far more rigid plan, you can go into a Duke Nukem Forever spiral (and DNF was a far smaller team!)
But the real reason we don't have games that run as long as Deus Ex is that the cost of reworking what was already there have exploded since those days. If you are predicting a 3 year release cycle(not unheard of to this day at large publishers), and you are delayed by 2 extra years, the hardware you are targeting is different, and the amount of art you have to upgrade or completely remake is crazy compared to Deus Ex. With teams being far larger than they were to meet a 3 year plan, marshaling a modern AAA game team to rework large parts of a game has little to do with managing to do the same with a team from the late 20th century. A linear increase in team size gets you a geometric increase in coordination costs.
That said, we still have small teams that might work on a game for a very long time, but they have to aim far lower technically, or in scope. You can make a beautiful, shorter game with a small team, like Outer Wilds. You can also make a 2d game, and tweak your game to perfection, like Stardew Valley. At those sizes, saying "when it's done", and letting yourself change direction and scope is fine. But try that with the Red Dead Redemption 2 team, trying to be at the forefront of everything. Without a far more rigid plan, you can go into a Duke Nukem Forever spiral (and DNF was a far smaller team!)
An important note with specifically Stardew Valley and a lot of the indie games coming out nowadays is that they release early; they work for up to a year, then release the game in Early Access to start the flow of money coming in so that they can both keep working on the game and get a lot of instant feedback.
I don't think that approach would work well with story-driven games, but for e.g. Stardew Valley and a lot of the infinite gameplay indie games being made nowadays it's ideal. Also, they will add features all the time, so people will come back to them on a regular basis (e.g. Factorio, KSP).
I don't think that approach would work well with story-driven games, but for e.g. Stardew Valley and a lot of the infinite gameplay indie games being made nowadays it's ideal. Also, they will add features all the time, so people will come back to them on a regular basis (e.g. Factorio, KSP).
Some story driven games do it through chapters, more or less finishing a first section of the game that's only tweaked by later updates.
Game graphics standard were changing much more rapidly back then. Games released in 1995 and 2000 look much more different than games from 2015 and 2020.
Couldn't a few artists and level designers in 1995-2000 crank out a whole lot more finished products than ones in 2015-2020 though? Seems like you need entire teams to make one level in modern games.
I guess it depends on the game, but just looking at a couple of AAA titles, the difference is staggering:
- Half Life -> https://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/half-life/credits
- Horizon Zero Dawn -> https://www.mobygames.com/game/playstation-4/horizon-zero-da...
- Half Life -> https://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/half-life/credits
- Horizon Zero Dawn -> https://www.mobygames.com/game/playstation-4/horizon-zero-da...
In 1995 individuals would crank out doom WADs and marathon maps like it was nothing. 2.5D was a sweet spot for ease of making something. As a tween with no artistic skill and the family computer I could make maps and mods and texture stuff.
Things got more difficult when everything became legitimate 3D because of unreal and quake. It still happened but IMO was a much steeper curve.
Things got more difficult when everything became legitimate 3D because of unreal and quake. It still happened but IMO was a much steeper curve.
>A linear increase in team size gets you a geometric increase in coordination costs.
You mean quadratic, no?
You mean quadratic, no?
The issue these days isn't so much time nor money but rather the difficulty in standing out from the pack when so much of game mechanics has already been discovered. Each breakthrough in technology has been followed by iconic "first of it's era" games, eg:
- Mario 64, Crash Bandicoot and others with their demonstration of how to translate a platformer to a 3D world
- Tomb Raider with it's "even the scenery can be explored"
- Shenmue with it's 3D open world and concept of fully immersing the player in the role
- Half-Life, System Shock and others with their emphasis on story and setting
But these ideas have been well explored and so games like Alien Isolation, which is a great game, aren't held in such high esteem.
The solution to that is to look outside of the traditional gaming paradigm. Look at indie games and see what they're creating -- there's some really great indie titles out there. Look at games that utilise new technology like VR (ok, technically VR has been around since the 90s but it's only really becoming mainstream now) and you'll see some stand out titles there too.
If you're only looking at games like Deus Ex then it could be easy to miss all the other stuff going on.
- Tomb Raider with it's "even the scenery can be explored"
- Shenmue with it's 3D open world and concept of fully immersing the player in the role
- Half-Life, System Shock and others with their emphasis on story and setting
But these ideas have been well explored and so games like Alien Isolation, which is a great game, aren't held in such high esteem.
The solution to that is to look outside of the traditional gaming paradigm. Look at indie games and see what they're creating -- there's some really great indie titles out there. Look at games that utilise new technology like VR (ok, technically VR has been around since the 90s but it's only really becoming mainstream now) and you'll see some stand out titles there too.
If you're only looking at games like Deus Ex then it could be easy to miss all the other stuff going on.
>> I don't think this can happen today and I also believe this is the reason we don't see anything close to the original Deus Ex.
> The solution to that is to look outside of the traditional gaming paradigm.
I don't think indie & VR gimmicks are the solution to lack of games that are close to the original Deus Ex. It's not revered for original superb mechanics; most of everything it does was done before. It's that it put them all together and did so many things right to create a polished, immersive experience with a compelling story (rather footed in reality as opposed to all out scifi/fantasy), strong plot focus (as opposed to disconnected mass-produced side quests), rich level design, lots of choice and player freedom, great music, replay value..
Hardly anyone is doing that. But, evidently, a lot of gamers want that.
> If you're only looking at games like Deus Ex then it could be easy to miss all the other stuff going on.
I just don't see anything that really compels me. Stuff is going on, and it's mostly not worth my time (or does a terrible job marketing itself).
> The solution to that is to look outside of the traditional gaming paradigm.
I don't think indie & VR gimmicks are the solution to lack of games that are close to the original Deus Ex. It's not revered for original superb mechanics; most of everything it does was done before. It's that it put them all together and did so many things right to create a polished, immersive experience with a compelling story (rather footed in reality as opposed to all out scifi/fantasy), strong plot focus (as opposed to disconnected mass-produced side quests), rich level design, lots of choice and player freedom, great music, replay value..
Hardly anyone is doing that. But, evidently, a lot of gamers want that.
> If you're only looking at games like Deus Ex then it could be easy to miss all the other stuff going on.
I just don't see anything that really compels me. Stuff is going on, and it's mostly not worth my time (or does a terrible job marketing itself).
> Hardly anyone is doing that. But, evidently, a lot of gamers want that.
Not enough really, we've had the Deus Ex reboot (Human revolution), Dishonored, Prey and their respective sequels, they're all great games but they didn't do amazingly, they mostly did "ok", they're all now on hiatus with their studios working on other franchises.
I think these games (immersive sims) are actually pretty difficult to make and the reward just isn't there vs other genres out there right now.
Not enough really, we've had the Deus Ex reboot (Human revolution), Dishonored, Prey and their respective sequels, they're all great games but they didn't do amazingly, they mostly did "ok", they're all now on hiatus with their studios working on other franchises.
I think these games (immersive sims) are actually pretty difficult to make and the reward just isn't there vs other genres out there right now.
I haven't played Dishonored or Prey but if HR is any indication, then they aren't all that great. No comparison to Deus Ex.
I thought HR was fantastic and was happy with Mankind Divided, I'm disappointed we won't see the reboot finished. I'd love if it lead into a modern reboot of the original DeusEx.
I think your criticisms of the RPG element, which is what the xp pop ups and stuff were, are overly harsh. I would have been happy without timit actions but they were all the rage when HR came out, so I can forgive Eidos for also doing them.
I think your criticisms of the RPG element, which is what the xp pop ups and stuff were, are overly harsh. I would have been happy without timit actions but they were all the rage when HR came out, so I can forgive Eidos for also doing them.
And that's why they won't make any more... they're held to a much higher standard than other genres of games. People nitpick these games to death, meanwhile CoD is played by tens of millions every year. If you're a game dev, you'd be mad to try and do another immersive sim.
> And that's why they won't make any more... you'd be mad to try and do another immersive sim.
To be clear, I don't think they even tried, as far as DX:HR is concerned. Instead, it looks like they tried hard to borrow ideas from these mainstream console games and made an anti-immersive "sim" that constantly takes you into third person, floods the screen with XP & loot popups and other UI noise, replaces melee weapons with "tap E to watch a mini-cutscene where MC beats up a guy", features busywork-filler-padding sidequests for the instant gratification RPG addicts, etcetra.
I think, if someone actually tried, this is a proven niche where one could definitely find some success.
As far as the FPS genre is concerned: boy do people nitpick them. You can point at a handful of super popular titles, and for each, there's a mountain of forgotten and thoroughly mediocre (or worse) first person shooters.
There's no single genre where success is for granted. In general, there's a long tail of games that get little attention and a small bunch of "rockstars" that everyone plays.
To be clear, I don't think they even tried, as far as DX:HR is concerned. Instead, it looks like they tried hard to borrow ideas from these mainstream console games and made an anti-immersive "sim" that constantly takes you into third person, floods the screen with XP & loot popups and other UI noise, replaces melee weapons with "tap E to watch a mini-cutscene where MC beats up a guy", features busywork-filler-padding sidequests for the instant gratification RPG addicts, etcetra.
I think, if someone actually tried, this is a proven niche where one could definitely find some success.
As far as the FPS genre is concerned: boy do people nitpick them. You can point at a handful of super popular titles, and for each, there's a mountain of forgotten and thoroughly mediocre (or worse) first person shooters.
There's no single genre where success is for granted. In general, there's a long tail of games that get little attention and a small bunch of "rockstars" that everyone plays.
A triple A game isn't viable on PC alone nowadays, it has to release on console and hence has to account for what modern (both PC and console) players expect. You're claiming to be a fan of this niche but haven't played any of the major releases in it from the past 10 years (Dishonored 1 & 2 + Prey), if you haven't played those games as a fan of the genre then what chance does the genre have? These were big games, marketed well by a major publisher (Bethesda).
As for genres, your point about only x number of games becoming a success is taken, but I guess my counter to that is, if you become a success in the shooter genre the upside is 10x or 100x what it would be for an immersive sim because the market for fps is much much bigger than those for immersive sims.
As for genres, your point about only x number of games becoming a success is taken, but I guess my counter to that is, if you become a success in the shooter genre the upside is 10x or 100x what it would be for an immersive sim because the market for fps is much much bigger than those for immersive sims.
The Witcher 3 was one of the most successful games in a long time, I don't really get this idea that the genre is dead.
I didn't claim to be a fan. How I feel about the success potential of this niche comes merely from observing other gamers (everyone seems to know Deus Ex, Dishonored, etc. and mostly everyone praises these and would like to play more games like that; that's probably also why there's so much hype for e.g. Cyberpunk 2077, and CDPR is obviously trying to capitalize on the success of immersive 1st person cyberpunk fps-rpgs).
I might be a fan, but I rarely buy new games myself, so extrapolating anything at all from my gaming habits probably tells nothing about the market at large. I generally don't buy any new game unless it's DRM-free, has native Linux support OOTB, and doesn't come with crazy overpriced moneygrab editions or a shitload of DLC.
I might be a fan, but I rarely buy new games myself, so extrapolating anything at all from my gaming habits probably tells nothing about the market at large. I generally don't buy any new game unless it's DRM-free, has native Linux support OOTB, and doesn't come with crazy overpriced moneygrab editions or a shitload of DLC.
Human Revolution was a prequel, not a reboot.
> I don't think indie & VR gimmicks are the solution to lack of games that are close to the original Deus Ex.
I don't think flatly calling all indie and VR games as "gimmicks" does justice to some of the more innovative creators out there.
> * It's not revered for original superb mechanics; most of everything it does was done before. It's that it put them all together and did so many things right to create a polished, immersive experience with a compelling story (rather footed in reality as opposed to all out scifi/fantasy), strong plot focus (as opposed to disconnected mass-produced side quests), rich level design, lots of choice and player freedom, great music, replay value..*
I was gaming back then as well. It was mostly the mechanics people seemed to talk about at the time (and the graphics too).
In any case, story driven games have existed long before Deus Ex and still exist now.
> I just don't see anything that really compels me. Stuff is going on, and it's mostly not worth my time (or does a terrible job marketing itself).
I see these kinds of comments all the time and frankly a lot of it is rose tinted glasses. You will naturally favour the games you grew up with. As it was, I grew up with text adventure games and crappy 8-bit conversions of arcade games so as much as I enjoy modern games I'm often still going back to Pac-Man and it's ilk because 3D is too "modern" for me. Like with how people harp on about how cartoons aren't as good as when they were kids, people make the same arguments for computer games too.... but that doesn't mean it is true.
I don't think flatly calling all indie and VR games as "gimmicks" does justice to some of the more innovative creators out there.
> * It's not revered for original superb mechanics; most of everything it does was done before. It's that it put them all together and did so many things right to create a polished, immersive experience with a compelling story (rather footed in reality as opposed to all out scifi/fantasy), strong plot focus (as opposed to disconnected mass-produced side quests), rich level design, lots of choice and player freedom, great music, replay value..*
I was gaming back then as well. It was mostly the mechanics people seemed to talk about at the time (and the graphics too).
In any case, story driven games have existed long before Deus Ex and still exist now.
> I just don't see anything that really compels me. Stuff is going on, and it's mostly not worth my time (or does a terrible job marketing itself).
I see these kinds of comments all the time and frankly a lot of it is rose tinted glasses. You will naturally favour the games you grew up with. As it was, I grew up with text adventure games and crappy 8-bit conversions of arcade games so as much as I enjoy modern games I'm often still going back to Pac-Man and it's ilk because 3D is too "modern" for me. Like with how people harp on about how cartoons aren't as good as when they were kids, people make the same arguments for computer games too.... but that doesn't mean it is true.
> It was mostly the mechanics people seemed to talk about at the time (and the graphics too).
Huh. Nobody praised the graphics back then. They were dated on the day Deus Ex came out; it uses the original Unreal engine (with some tweaks) and looks just as dated. Rendering technology moved fast back then and a game as large as Deus Ex had no hope of staying ahead of the curve. Plus they had to make some compromises to fit such a large scale game on disk & in RAM (there were other UE1 games that looked arguably better). I recall reviews considering Deus Ex's graphics "boxy" (literally!) and it has plenty of super small textures..
The thing that most people praised was the freedom. That's part mechanics, but what I was trying to say is that very few of the mechanics in Deus Ex were innovative; mostly they just did a great job incorporating mechanics that already existed in prior games. That's the ticket. You don't need to innovate and make some superb new mechanics to make a new Deus Ex quality game.
> In any case, story driven games have existed long before Deus Ex and still exist now.
Yes, but few games pull all the elements I mentioned above together. Deus Ex has "all the parts", and for most part it's done well, therefore it's more than the sum of its parts. Yes, story driven games exist, but few of them incorporate all the other elements that made Deus Ex what it is.
> I see these kinds of comments all the time and frankly a lot of it is rose tinted glasses.
I see people always dismiss this as nostalgia. I call bullshit, if only because I played very few games "back in the day" (and I don't like most of the games I had back then; I played them only because I really didn't have anything else to play).
Most of the old games I discuss today are games I've only played sometime during the last decade for the first time. And I keep finding old games that I really like, and then I don't like their sequels, and I have a hard time finding new games that I like as much.
Huh. Nobody praised the graphics back then. They were dated on the day Deus Ex came out; it uses the original Unreal engine (with some tweaks) and looks just as dated. Rendering technology moved fast back then and a game as large as Deus Ex had no hope of staying ahead of the curve. Plus they had to make some compromises to fit such a large scale game on disk & in RAM (there were other UE1 games that looked arguably better). I recall reviews considering Deus Ex's graphics "boxy" (literally!) and it has plenty of super small textures..
The thing that most people praised was the freedom. That's part mechanics, but what I was trying to say is that very few of the mechanics in Deus Ex were innovative; mostly they just did a great job incorporating mechanics that already existed in prior games. That's the ticket. You don't need to innovate and make some superb new mechanics to make a new Deus Ex quality game.
> In any case, story driven games have existed long before Deus Ex and still exist now.
Yes, but few games pull all the elements I mentioned above together. Deus Ex has "all the parts", and for most part it's done well, therefore it's more than the sum of its parts. Yes, story driven games exist, but few of them incorporate all the other elements that made Deus Ex what it is.
> I see these kinds of comments all the time and frankly a lot of it is rose tinted glasses.
I see people always dismiss this as nostalgia. I call bullshit, if only because I played very few games "back in the day" (and I don't like most of the games I had back then; I played them only because I really didn't have anything else to play).
Most of the old games I discuss today are games I've only played sometime during the last decade for the first time. And I keep finding old games that I really like, and then I don't like their sequels, and I have a hard time finding new games that I like as much.
> Huh. Nobody praised the graphics back then.
I'm pretty sure they did. Unfortunately I don't still have any magazines of that era
> They were dated on the day Deus Ex came out; it uses the original Unreal engine (with some tweaks) and looks just as dated.
Back then "with some tweaks" and high resolution textures did make a significant differences
> I recall reviews considering Deus Ex's graphics "boxy" (literally!) and it has plenty of super small textures..
I guess our recollections differ then. I do remember the game ran slooooow compared to other games out there that used the Unreal Engine. Perhaps you had to run the game at a lower texture quality or resolution than other games?
> Yes, but few games pull all the elements I mentioned above together. Deus Ex has "all the parts", and for most part it's done well, therefore it's more than the sum of its parts. Yes, story driven games exist, but few of them incorporate all the other elements that made Deus Ex what it is.
Basically your criticism here is few other games are Deus Ex since if everything you loved about Deus Ex was copied you'd just end up with the same game. And if that happened you'd probably also criticise it for not being original.
> I see people always dismiss this as nostalgia. I call bullshit, if only because I played very few games "back in the day"
That's exactly it though. You don't have to love every game you grew up with but you did have to spend time playing Deus Ex because you had fewer options verses now where you are able to skip game the moment your attention wavers.
I'm pretty sure they did. Unfortunately I don't still have any magazines of that era
> They were dated on the day Deus Ex came out; it uses the original Unreal engine (with some tweaks) and looks just as dated.
Back then "with some tweaks" and high resolution textures did make a significant differences
> I recall reviews considering Deus Ex's graphics "boxy" (literally!) and it has plenty of super small textures..
I guess our recollections differ then. I do remember the game ran slooooow compared to other games out there that used the Unreal Engine. Perhaps you had to run the game at a lower texture quality or resolution than other games?
> Yes, but few games pull all the elements I mentioned above together. Deus Ex has "all the parts", and for most part it's done well, therefore it's more than the sum of its parts. Yes, story driven games exist, but few of them incorporate all the other elements that made Deus Ex what it is.
Basically your criticism here is few other games are Deus Ex since if everything you loved about Deus Ex was copied you'd just end up with the same game. And if that happened you'd probably also criticise it for not being original.
> I see people always dismiss this as nostalgia. I call bullshit, if only because I played very few games "back in the day"
That's exactly it though. You don't have to love every game you grew up with but you did have to spend time playing Deus Ex because you had fewer options verses now where you are able to skip game the moment your attention wavers.
>> Huh. Nobody praised the graphics back then.
> I guess our recollections differ then.
IGN: As good as the gameplay is, visuals aren't one of Deus Ex's stronger points. Since it's built on the Unreal engine, Deus Ex isn't as pretty as other first-person games like Quake III or Soldier of Fortune. The graphics are blocky, the animation is stiff, and the dithering is just plain awful in some spots [...] (between presentation, graphics, sound, gameplay, and lasting appeal, graphics got the lowest score)
Gamespot: Deus Ex's graphics aren't very good, either. Though the game uses Epic Games' Unreal engine, which was once lauded for its exceptional visual quality, Deus Ex is actually a fairly bland-looking game because of its incessantly dark industrial environments.
(I could've sworn PC gamer also considered the graphics blocky, but I can't find that right now)
HDTP: The original in-game textures were of a very low resolution, some textures even being as low as 32x32.
For comparison, Doom (1993) had 128 px tall wall textures. Quake 3 (1999) shipped 256x256 textures and generally much better looking (and more dynamic) visuals thanks to its shaders and gamma hack. Unreal shipped hi-res s3tc textures (sorry, can't figure out what the resolution is right now).
Also I think Deus Ex used indexed (256 color) textures, while Quake 3 engine based games used truecolor. At least I remember having to dither & convert textures to 256 color gifs back when I did some Deus Ex modding..
> Basically your criticism here is few other games are Deus Ex since if everything you loved about Deus Ex was copied you'd just end up with the same game. And if that happened you'd probably also criticise it for not being original.
Absolutely not. My criticism is that very few other games try and let alone manage to put all the elements together as competently as Deus Ex did. You absolutely can deliver an original story & setting with all the elements that made Deus Ex good without making the same game. Virtually nobody today is trying.
> That's exactly it though. You don't have to love every game you grew up with but you did have to spend time playing Deus Ex because you had fewer options verses now where you are able to skip game the moment your attention wavers.
No, that's not it. You missed the part where I mention old games in plural. Yes, old games other than Deus Ex, that I played sometime post 2010 and liked a lot (more than most recent games I try to play). Deus Ex is rather the exception, in that I both played it back in the day and enjoy it a lot (even today). Most of the games that I like from that era are not games I played in that era. And most of the games I played back then are not games I would enjoy today. So the vast majority of my opinion about old games does not come from nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, but from discovering them on GOG and playing them post 2014 (which is when I created my account on GOG and started trying out these old games I never had a chance to play back in the day).
I have zero reason to believe in nostalgia making much difference in how I feel about games I play today. I can pick up a game I loved 25 years ago, and get bored in 30 minutes because it's actually not that good. I can pick up a game I never played 25 years ago and love it because it's actually good. I can pick up a game I heard about 25 years ago and wanted to play, and find out it's actually not good. I can pick up a game I hated 25 years ago and like it, because it's actually better than I thought back then.
Actually playing these games today is the best way to dispel nostalgia, and usually 15 to 120 minutes is more than enough time for that.
> I guess our recollections differ then.
IGN: As good as the gameplay is, visuals aren't one of Deus Ex's stronger points. Since it's built on the Unreal engine, Deus Ex isn't as pretty as other first-person games like Quake III or Soldier of Fortune. The graphics are blocky, the animation is stiff, and the dithering is just plain awful in some spots [...] (between presentation, graphics, sound, gameplay, and lasting appeal, graphics got the lowest score)
Gamespot: Deus Ex's graphics aren't very good, either. Though the game uses Epic Games' Unreal engine, which was once lauded for its exceptional visual quality, Deus Ex is actually a fairly bland-looking game because of its incessantly dark industrial environments.
(I could've sworn PC gamer also considered the graphics blocky, but I can't find that right now)
HDTP: The original in-game textures were of a very low resolution, some textures even being as low as 32x32.
For comparison, Doom (1993) had 128 px tall wall textures. Quake 3 (1999) shipped 256x256 textures and generally much better looking (and more dynamic) visuals thanks to its shaders and gamma hack. Unreal shipped hi-res s3tc textures (sorry, can't figure out what the resolution is right now).
Also I think Deus Ex used indexed (256 color) textures, while Quake 3 engine based games used truecolor. At least I remember having to dither & convert textures to 256 color gifs back when I did some Deus Ex modding..
> Basically your criticism here is few other games are Deus Ex since if everything you loved about Deus Ex was copied you'd just end up with the same game. And if that happened you'd probably also criticise it for not being original.
Absolutely not. My criticism is that very few other games try and let alone manage to put all the elements together as competently as Deus Ex did. You absolutely can deliver an original story & setting with all the elements that made Deus Ex good without making the same game. Virtually nobody today is trying.
> That's exactly it though. You don't have to love every game you grew up with but you did have to spend time playing Deus Ex because you had fewer options verses now where you are able to skip game the moment your attention wavers.
No, that's not it. You missed the part where I mention old games in plural. Yes, old games other than Deus Ex, that I played sometime post 2010 and liked a lot (more than most recent games I try to play). Deus Ex is rather the exception, in that I both played it back in the day and enjoy it a lot (even today). Most of the games that I like from that era are not games I played in that era. And most of the games I played back then are not games I would enjoy today. So the vast majority of my opinion about old games does not come from nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, but from discovering them on GOG and playing them post 2014 (which is when I created my account on GOG and started trying out these old games I never had a chance to play back in the day).
I have zero reason to believe in nostalgia making much difference in how I feel about games I play today. I can pick up a game I loved 25 years ago, and get bored in 30 minutes because it's actually not that good. I can pick up a game I never played 25 years ago and love it because it's actually good. I can pick up a game I heard about 25 years ago and wanted to play, and find out it's actually not good. I can pick up a game I hated 25 years ago and like it, because it's actually better than I thought back then.
Actually playing these games today is the best way to dispel nostalgia, and usually 15 to 120 minutes is more than enough time for that.
>- Shenmue with it's 3D open world and concept of fully immersing the player in the role
No. Mizzurna Falls was first.
No. Mizzurna Falls was first.
If you only look at the Japanese release dates then sure. But Mizzurna Falls was a mess of a game and never released in the west. Shenmue, however, had been in development long before Mizzurna Falls had started (since Shenmue was first developed as an RPG for the Saturn) and even with the pivot to the Dreamcast, it was only released the following year after Mizzurna Falls.
Shenmue also has a much higher polygon count, all the NPCs had voice actors, it had action sequences, mini-games, etc. It was a hell of a lot more immersive than Mizzurna Falls in every imaginable way.
Shenmue also has a much higher polygon count, all the NPCs had voice actors, it had action sequences, mini-games, etc. It was a hell of a lot more immersive than Mizzurna Falls in every imaginable way.
True, I forgot the Saturn protoypes, my bad.
But the concept of "open world" could date back to Ultima RPG. You could set Ultima VII under an "open world" genre.
But the concept of "open world" could date back to Ultima RPG. You could set Ultima VII under an "open world" genre.
You could argue the concept of open world games date back to 70s with Dungeons and Dragons. The point I was making was that Shenmue introduced the world to a new way of approaching game design -- even if not all of the ideas were truly unique it did still package them in a way that hadn't been (successfully) tried before. Which is why it's such a memorable game.
It really depends on the developer. Look at Star Citizen. Self funded to 300 million dollars and still it seems to be stuck in development hell, with Chris Roberts creating yet more feature creep.
I say this as a fan of the game but even I can concede that he wants to make the ultimate space simulation game which just isn't feasible with how long it would take in reality.
I say this as a fan of the game but even I can concede that he wants to make the ultimate space simulation game which just isn't feasible with how long it would take in reality.
Someone's going to be first on that front, it's more attainable today than ever. Elite Dangerous is doing space legs + combat next year.
I don't know how Star Citizen is going to hold off against Elite Dangerous. It's probably great for Chris to actualize his dreams, but he should realize he's doing in on somebody else's dime. Let's be honest, the space sim has generally one viable gameplay loop formula (the 4Xs, as a puny individual and then as a collective). I've played a few, and by far I liked ED the most (in its execution) and even then, it devolves into farm fest. Which I assume Star Citizen is going to turn out anyways. In the coming ED update they would be similar in terms of features.
I'm saying it's not making me want to play Star Citizen at all (unless if I backed the game, that would be a different story).
I'm saying it's not making me want to play Star Citizen at all (unless if I backed the game, that would be a different story).
One reason it can't happen today is because it never ends well. Ion Storm was a huge disaster; it produced Deus Ex, but it also produced Daikatana, one of the truly legendary bad games. The studio mismanaged itself so badly that by 2001 the whole thing had collapsed except for Warren Spector's team in Austin, who soldiered on for a few more years before giving up.
True. But also true that that's what it takes to release groundbreaking stuff. Failure is a very possible outcome.
I think the price of Daikatana is well worth the existence of Deus Ex.
Ofc no investor would ever take a risk like that these days. Sad reality for me as a consumer.
I think the price of Daikatana is well worth the existence of Deus Ex.
Ofc no investor would ever take a risk like that these days. Sad reality for me as a consumer.
> anything close to the original Deus Ex.
Note that the original Deus Ex led to the pretty poor Deus Ex 2: Invisible War, that nobody talks about today. Deus Ex was more of an exception that anything else.
Note that the original Deus Ex led to the pretty poor Deus Ex 2: Invisible War, that nobody talks about today. Deus Ex was more of an exception that anything else.
Deus Ex 2 was not a bad game. Most of the complaints centered around the negative effects of consolization (small maps, reduced detail, universal ammo system) more than anything else.
But if you can get past the consolization and peer into the story & writing.. it's nowhere near the level of Deus Ex. Most of it feels like generic scifi mumbojumbo that's there to justify the action (much like Tom Clancy's, e.g. Splinter Cell). There's hardly any of the red pills that seem applicable to today's real-world politics, few references to historic figures and factions..
I'd say it's a thoroughly mediocre game. Still, I've played through it at least two or three times, which is two or three more than the number of times I've played through DX:HR!
EDIT: Also I find it funny that they wanted to make it "family-friendly" and removed blood & gibs, but you can still massacre an academy full of kids. Happened on my previous playthrough..
I'd say it's a thoroughly mediocre game. Still, I've played through it at least two or three times, which is two or three more than the number of times I've played through DX:HR!
EDIT: Also I find it funny that they wanted to make it "family-friendly" and removed blood & gibs, but you can still massacre an academy full of kids. Happened on my previous playthrough..
I think it can, just not so often - there's a lot of empowered indies out there. ZA/UM and Disco Elysium springs to mind.
Anything close in what regards? There are amazing games coming out all the time.
The game pushed the envelope in a lot of ways. At the time I was simply shocked by how immersive the game was, from the backstory present in everything to the freedom you had as a player to approach situations. Sure, today we have those things in a lot of games, but they are formulaic, dumbed down and became stale with overuse.
Today you can really only see innovation in indie games - which have limitations because of their resources. Deus Ex was a innovative triple A.
Above thoughts are ramblings, I know. Truth is I don't know what I would like to see in a modern equivalent. And that's how I want it too, I want to be surprised, overwhelmed, I want to see the best in the business come up with something I can't even imagine.
Instead I get remakes and ubisoft like formula "open world" full of busy work and chores.
Today you can really only see innovation in indie games - which have limitations because of their resources. Deus Ex was a innovative triple A.
Above thoughts are ramblings, I know. Truth is I don't know what I would like to see in a modern equivalent. And that's how I want it too, I want to be surprised, overwhelmed, I want to see the best in the business come up with something I can't even imagine.
Instead I get remakes and ubisoft like formula "open world" full of busy work and chores.
Amazing to look at, but not innovative. There's very rarely that combination of a big AAA game combined with gameplay innovation these days that Deus Ex (and some other groundbreaking games in the late 90's) represented.
The big blockbuster games cost so much money to make today that those who provide the money are extremely risk averse, so you get rehash after rehash after rehash of proven formulas with shinier graphics.
All the (gameplay and storytelling) innovation happens in smaller indie games. Some of them actually have incredible production value, but rarely the marketing power of AAA productions by the big publishers.
It's much like Hollywood in the 70's vs Hollywood today.
(some edits to make it clear that I'm talking about innovation outside the pure rendering technology, that's where AAA productions are leading, no doubt).
The big blockbuster games cost so much money to make today that those who provide the money are extremely risk averse, so you get rehash after rehash after rehash of proven formulas with shinier graphics.
All the (gameplay and storytelling) innovation happens in smaller indie games. Some of them actually have incredible production value, but rarely the marketing power of AAA productions by the big publishers.
It's much like Hollywood in the 70's vs Hollywood today.
(some edits to make it clear that I'm talking about innovation outside the pure rendering technology, that's where AAA productions are leading, no doubt).
At the time, DE was mindblowing and revolutionary. There had never been anything like it.
We get games in that spirit once every couple of years, actually. Prey (2017) was a fine successor to the Deus Ex tradition, for example.
Prey was an excellent game that I really enjoyed. To me it's not quite the same, since it's not as dense with people/NPCs. The only games that I can recall really coming close to Deus Ex are... Deus Ex Human Revolution and Mankind Divided.
Was it? You're not the first I've seen say something like this, but in both setting and mechanics I found it much more akin to System Shock 2.
I don't know, I don't see the similarity. I didn't really like Prey (or any prop hunt games for that matter). It's a new genre mix. I guess I can see the appeal.
Disclaimer: I never played the first Deus Ex, but I got more of a Bioshock vibe from Prey (2017), and that one had a somewhat original take on the FPS genre by adding scarcity. Great setting too.
Well, you have to remember than another game sorta like that was Duke Nukem Forever :)
Deux Ex felt then and still today like a gift where story was everything, right before online/multiplayer completely transformed the industry, and for a good ten years single player was more or less an afterthought. I've never been so engrossed in a storyline as I was when I played Deus Ex. I re-played it a few years ago and I was shocked how satisfying it still was.
I don't work in gaming, and I haven't been an avid gamer in nearly 15 years. From my cursory viewpoint, it feels like every 5-10 years a story-driven game comes along, but mostly it feels like the industry is focused on either massive open world games, or Fortnite-esque quick-hit experiences.
I'd love to hear from people in the industry on how games like Deux Ex that live and die on story are thought of in the industry.
I don't work in gaming, and I haven't been an avid gamer in nearly 15 years. From my cursory viewpoint, it feels like every 5-10 years a story-driven game comes along, but mostly it feels like the industry is focused on either massive open world games, or Fortnite-esque quick-hit experiences.
I'd love to hear from people in the industry on how games like Deux Ex that live and die on story are thought of in the industry.
The problem with being on the outside of the industry (or not being a gamer) and looking into it is that most of the social media and news presence is around the big name multiplayer and blockbuster titles. That doesn't mean story-focused games don't come out, just that they don't garner attention outside of the gaming sphere.
A short list of ones to look into, just to name a few:
Disco Elysium - 2019 - A _very_ weird RPG where you play an alchoholic amnesiac detective and where your skills are more aspects of your personality than abilities. The writing is so incredibly strange and wonderful that I'm not sure quite how to describe it. Your own personality traits sometimes talk and may try to convince you to be a socialist.
Outer Wilds - 2018 - A game about exploring a small simulated solar system for the purpose of simply learning more about it. There's a lot to this game, but because the entire purpose of the game is exploration and learning about the world _everything_ is a spoiler so I won't say any more.
A Plague Tale: Innocence - 2019 - Stealth-focused fantasy/adventure game set in the 1300s in France.
Undertale - 2015 - Another game that's hard to describe, don't be put off by its look but it absolutely lives and dies by its story. Especially since there are some very important gameplay elements that blend into the story.
Mass Effect 1-3 - 2007-2012 - Even if ME3's ending is widely panned, the rest of the series is absolutely story-focused and I figure I should mention some true AAAs that are known for story.
NieR: Automata - 2017 - philosophical weirdness about androids and machines wrapped up in a pretty good action game.
Bioshock 1-2/Infinite - 2007-2013 - Hard not to mention these in a thread about writing and Deus Ex, seeing as this series also has roots going back to Looking Glass, Thief, and System Shock.
A short list of ones to look into, just to name a few:
Disco Elysium - 2019 - A _very_ weird RPG where you play an alchoholic amnesiac detective and where your skills are more aspects of your personality than abilities. The writing is so incredibly strange and wonderful that I'm not sure quite how to describe it. Your own personality traits sometimes talk and may try to convince you to be a socialist.
Outer Wilds - 2018 - A game about exploring a small simulated solar system for the purpose of simply learning more about it. There's a lot to this game, but because the entire purpose of the game is exploration and learning about the world _everything_ is a spoiler so I won't say any more.
A Plague Tale: Innocence - 2019 - Stealth-focused fantasy/adventure game set in the 1300s in France.
Undertale - 2015 - Another game that's hard to describe, don't be put off by its look but it absolutely lives and dies by its story. Especially since there are some very important gameplay elements that blend into the story.
Mass Effect 1-3 - 2007-2012 - Even if ME3's ending is widely panned, the rest of the series is absolutely story-focused and I figure I should mention some true AAAs that are known for story.
NieR: Automata - 2017 - philosophical weirdness about androids and machines wrapped up in a pretty good action game.
Bioshock 1-2/Infinite - 2007-2013 - Hard not to mention these in a thread about writing and Deus Ex, seeing as this series also has roots going back to Looking Glass, Thief, and System Shock.
Really appreciate you taking the time to type all this out. This is awesome. Thanks.
I have to mention Ross' Youtube channel Accursed Farms' review [0] [1] [2] of Deus Ex. I would highly recommended watching them:
"I came for a game review and left with a better understanding of the economy and politics. Ross you blow my mind"
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxOKEsBx4NU
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPwpLDvAnvo
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYLEuQrvND0
"I came for a game review and left with a better understanding of the economy and politics. Ross you blow my mind"
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxOKEsBx4NU
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPwpLDvAnvo
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYLEuQrvND0
I remember, as a 13 year old with newly acquired PC, spending most of my summer playing this game into the early hours of the morning. The conspiratorial story branches and gameplay were so compelling to me at the time, I didn't feel the need to do anything else. No friends, no outdoor time, just Deus Ex- No regrets either.
We need, in fact the industry simply REQUIRES, in-depth oral history journalism and retrospectives like this. The "gaming industry" is 40+ years old now, and there have been absolutely pivotal works in that time. They deserve to be interrogated and documented dispassionately and with rigor.
https://www.filfre.net/ is a great example of such an examination - starting with the classic text-adventure games, and gradually getting more and more current.
The table of contents is impressive, the writing is wonderful, and you can download a series of ebook collections containing the individual blog posts.
The table of contents is impressive, the writing is wonderful, and you can download a series of ebook collections containing the individual blog posts.
The most recent articles on DOOM are especially relevant here, because some of the names involved in Ion Storm (though not as directly involved in Deus Ex) show up in the various tales about DOOM and the early Shareware era.
(Jimmy Maher also is pretty good about citing sources and the book Masters of DOOM is cited several times as a primary source, which is also why it is recommended several times in sibling comments.)
(Jimmy Maher also is pretty good about citing sources and the book Masters of DOOM is cited several times as a primary source, which is also why it is recommended several times in sibling comments.)
Probably mentioned elsewhere, but Masters of Doom is a great book that reads a bit better (for me personally) than an interview like this article.
If you enjoyed Masters of Doom, I highly suggest Blood, Sweat, and Pixels. Not as laser-focused on a single studio, but great reporting on the industry, both positives and negatives.
Lots of classic stories on gamasutra. But I agree, more documentation of historical work is needed.
There are some great reads out there about gamedev and gaming history, though:
- Blood, Sweat and Pixels by Jason Schreier
- Masters of Doom by David Kushner
- The Ultimate History of Video Games by Steven L. Kent was required reading for me in college
- Game Over by David Sheff
- Dungeon Hacks by David Craddock
There are some great reads out there about gamedev and gaming history, though:
- Blood, Sweat and Pixels by Jason Schreier
- Masters of Doom by David Kushner
- The Ultimate History of Video Games by Steven L. Kent was required reading for me in college
- Game Over by David Sheff
- Dungeon Hacks by David Craddock
The Video Game History Foundation is probably the best organization pushing this forward today. Also, last year, Retronauts did a couple of 1-on-1 interviews with early PC game developers from the 70s and 80s (having trouble finding direct links to them now, sorry).
For the 15th anniversary Warren Spector, Sheldon Pacotti and Chris Norden got together to replay the game.[1] Spector and Looking Glass creators also had a replay for System Shock's 25th anniversary last year. [2]
Deus Ex made me read "The Man Who Was Thursday". I was slightly disappointed that the other book "Jacob's Shadow" was made-up for the game.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaJ18p4QH2Q
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IzNzVAxk8E
Deus Ex made me read "The Man Who Was Thursday". I was slightly disappointed that the other book "Jacob's Shadow" was made-up for the game.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaJ18p4QH2Q
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IzNzVAxk8E
Sheldon wrote most of the dialogue and is a novelist. He also has degrees in math and English from MIT and Harvard, respectively. Rare to have that background for a writer at a game company today. So much prescient dialogue, here's the game talking about the EU/globalists today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxWlJ_muK0I
What I think of when I think of Deus Ex was back then it was receiving accolades and a year or two after it came out I decided to give it a try. I saw they had a really inexpensive version out that was called Deus Ex: Special Limited Edition, for probably $10 or so. After playing it a bit I realized it literally was a “limited edition” in that it was just a demo disc. I couldn’t believe the publisher would rip people off by issuing such a version under the guise of it being a special edition.
"Deus E(x)specially Limited Edition" works nicely as a replacement title...
At least you aren't alone[1]
Despite being an inferior product, Special Limited Edition was sold by major retailers for as much or more than the full game, sometimes on the same shelf. This version was very negatively received, as the similar price and misleading name lead many to unwittingly purchase what turned out to be an "extended demo" or "trialware".
[1] https://deusex.fandom.com/wiki/Deus_Ex#Game_versions
At least you aren't alone[1]
Despite being an inferior product, Special Limited Edition was sold by major retailers for as much or more than the full game, sometimes on the same shelf. This version was very negatively received, as the similar price and misleading name lead many to unwittingly purchase what turned out to be an "extended demo" or "trialware".
[1] https://deusex.fandom.com/wiki/Deus_Ex#Game_versions
Like most people today, I attempted to get into the game a few dozen times until I finally was able to get past the first level "my own way" that didn't rely on the really finicky stealth mechanics (specifically using a GEP gun to destroy the robot, then walking through the front door).
The rest of the game is an absolute marvel of design. Even for a modern game the level design and depth of the story is remarkable. The game doesn't even look half bad if you install modern texture packs. It's a shame that the themes of the original were dumbed down significantly in the sequel.
I started another play through recently exactly for this reason:
> Smith: Deus Ex and Dishonored both involve a plague, and they both involve powerful, corrupt elites turning the disenfranchised against each other. When some states discouraged the wearing of masks or sheltering in place, somebody inevitably linked me the opening cinematic. ‘Why contain it? Let the bodies pile up in the streets’.
The rest of the game is an absolute marvel of design. Even for a modern game the level design and depth of the story is remarkable. The game doesn't even look half bad if you install modern texture packs. It's a shame that the themes of the original were dumbed down significantly in the sequel.
I started another play through recently exactly for this reason:
> Smith: Deus Ex and Dishonored both involve a plague, and they both involve powerful, corrupt elites turning the disenfranchised against each other. When some states discouraged the wearing of masks or sheltering in place, somebody inevitably linked me the opening cinematic. ‘Why contain it? Let the bodies pile up in the streets’.
> really finicky
Is it finicky? The stealth system is very basic and based on line-of-sight and sound (for human enemies). As long as you aren't running, it's actually incredibly trivial to stealth through levels without being seen. Even the bots aren't really a problem, since they have static patrol paths and limited line of sight.
Is it finicky? The stealth system is very basic and based on line-of-sight and sound (for human enemies). As long as you aren't running, it's actually incredibly trivial to stealth through levels without being seen. Even the bots aren't really a problem, since they have static patrol paths and limited line of sight.
Its really that I'm just more used to modern stealth mechanics that handhold the player more. It's not my style of play in general.
There's a generation gap here. The information density in current game UIs is high with status indicators, aiming aids, location markers, objective lists. Players expect the game to be a DM giving them lots hints on how to proceed through the game. At the time Deus Ex was made one of the talking points was realism. Players wanted to experience the game as a simulation. The hand-holding that's expected today was frowned upon as breaking the immersion. The article briefly touches on this debate between realism vs playability with regards to level design.
It's more of a trial and error kind of play. It really helps to quick save/quick load a lot to figure out what you can get away with.
yeah I was surprised by this comment as well. imo, deus ex has one of the better implementations of stealth mechanics (certainly better than recent games like far cry). maybe it was bugged for GP?
I played it so many times around 2000...
Fun fact about stealth mechanic rewards in the original: they don't vanish if you did the offensive approach! You could get the most xp by first killing everyone and then run around through tunnels and obstacles to get the other half of the xp
I remember the escape from his brothers apartment in hells kitchen especially fondly because of that. First you slaughter everyone so your bro is safe for offensive reward, then you run through the level for the discovery rewards such as enabling the turret which shots the now non-existing enemies (the brother dies if you don't block him by standing in the way so risky to do earlier) and finally escape through the window. 3 routes and you get all the xp :)
Fun fact about stealth mechanic rewards in the original: they don't vanish if you did the offensive approach! You could get the most xp by first killing everyone and then run around through tunnels and obstacles to get the other half of the xp
I remember the escape from his brothers apartment in hells kitchen especially fondly because of that. First you slaughter everyone so your bro is safe for offensive reward, then you run through the level for the discovery rewards such as enabling the turret which shots the now non-existing enemies (the brother dies if you don't block him by standing in the way so risky to do earlier) and finally escape through the window. 3 routes and you get all the xp :)
No. First you hide in the closet while your brother goes on a slaughterfest because he can't die until the script says he does.
When bro, the great pacifist, has killed absolutely everything in the hotel, walk out together with him through the front door, where he spontaneously drops dead for no reason at all because the script says he should.
I did love that game
When bro, the great pacifist, has killed absolutely everything in the hotel, walk out together with him through the front door, where he spontaneously drops dead for no reason at all because the script says he should.
I did love that game
Pretty sure he survived if you left through the window after killing everyone.
You meet him again later iirc, though only very briefly.
You meet him again later iirc, though only very briefly.
That's weird, I remember doing the opposite - he only survives if you fight it out with him. Is GP's save bugged or am I having Mandela effect?
States as such here (Spoilers, of course): [0]
[0]: https://deusex.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Denton#2052
States as such here (Spoilers, of course): [0]
[0]: https://deusex.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Denton#2052
Its almost 20 years ago, so i might have swapped the front door and the window. I do know for sure he becomes a killing machine if you hide in the closet instead of running away as he directs you.
That's correct. But where's the fun in that ;-)
> then you run through the level for the discovery rewards such as enabling the turret which shots the now non-existing enemies
Whaat. I must've played DX at least a couple dozen times and I never found a turret in the hotel?
Whaat. I must've played DX at least a couple dozen times and I never found a turret in the hotel?
I think you had to go through elevator, then stealth into the reception and hack a terminal in the back.
I might misremember though... It's been almost 20 years after all ;)
I might misremember though... It's been almost 20 years after all ;)
I think it wasn’t until my sixth or seventh play through that I finally felt like I’d found everything in that game. There’s just so much in it, and it’s content to let you miss most of it if you want. IIRC there are a three or so main routes through that first level (in the front, through the tunnel, climb the side), plus a couple optional side-areas.
It was this conversation [0] that convinced me the game was something special (albeit poorly aged today!)
Also in Hong Kong (and a spoiler) was this way of completing an objective that I didn't realize was possible until I saw it on YouTube [1].
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKF0IYwhrjk
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT7sjoH8Sqc
Also in Hong Kong (and a spoiler) was this way of completing an objective that I didn't realize was possible until I saw it on YouTube [1].
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKF0IYwhrjk
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT7sjoH8Sqc
I always figured the bartender was just another philosophy or sociology or political science major who couldn't find a better job. Which I'd say is also a relevant modern issue. I know plenty of college students and grads working shit jobs.
In that second video, he jumps to Jock's apartment. That one took me years to discover. Same for the collapsed tunnel accessible via the HK canals.. wow, that one is so well hidden.
The opening scene feels prophetic in the time of coronavirus:
https://youtu.be/zStn70Ot4r0
https://youtu.be/zStn70Ot4r0
To quote from the article:
>Smith: Every time the US shifts a little towards fascism or centralised control, somebody will send me a link to something from Deus Ex. It’s not that we were prescient – the sad part is that it’s on repeat through history.
>Smith: Every time the US shifts a little towards fascism or centralised control, somebody will send me a link to something from Deus Ex. It’s not that we were prescient – the sad part is that it’s on repeat through history.
Not to mention just how amazing the theme music is as well.
I actually still play Thief 2, and am about to play Deus Ex again
I actually still play Thief 2, and am about to play Deus Ex again
Does anyone here notice the stylistic similarity to The Matrix? Both featured a protagonist with a trench coat and black shades. I wonder if The Matrix inspired the design team of Deus Ex in some ways.
The Matrix came ~9 months before Deus Ex, so their productions definitely overlapped but they'd have had time to assimilate some stuff if they wanted to.
That said, it's more that they're both drawing on similar cyberpunk traditions. There's a clear line between the aesthetic of Neuromancer and Deus Ex / The Matrix both.
That said, it's more that they're both drawing on similar cyberpunk traditions. There's a clear line between the aesthetic of Neuromancer and Deus Ex / The Matrix both.
There's a Matrix easter egg in Deus Ex (the cheat code 'thereisnospoon') so they were definitely aware of the similarities. They're really only superficially similar in aesthetics and broad themes, though.
[deleted]
I really hope they will make a remake of the originals. I loved Deus Ex: Human Revolution when it was out, but it’s a challenges to enjoy older games most of the time.
I feel the same. I want to play the originals, but they are just so clunky and even the mods do not fix the fundamental problem of how old the games do feel.
I went back to human revolution a couple months ago. I loved it the first time, but I was really surprised how clunky a game from 2011 felt. I think there were also some scaling issues with my 4k monitor. it's really too bad; mankind divided had a much better "feel" to it, but the story was not as interesting or well developed.
I played HR for the first time last month and couldn't finish it, because it bored me to death and then gave me stupid boss fights. It's so dumbed down and just doesn't come close to the first Deus Ex. And yes it felt clunkier than the first game (I lost count of how many times I fell to my death trying to jump onto some platform to perhaps find a secret or hidden route, only to hit a stupid invisible wall)..
The director's cut provided non-combat solutions to some of the boss fights. But at launch, yeah, those were a huge miss if you had optimized stealth or hacking skills. It felt like a huge slap in the face to anyone that managed to bypass the boss fights in the original Deus Ex by finding the killswitch words.
Penny Arcade captured the sentiment at the time pretty well:
https://arewenewatthis.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/deus-ex1....
(Sorry this is not officially from their site--their archive search system is terrible)
Penny Arcade captured the sentiment at the time pretty well:
https://arewenewatthis.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/deus-ex1....
(Sorry this is not officially from their site--their archive search system is terrible)
In my opinion, there wasn't really an option other than to optimize for a stealthy gameplay style in DX:HR since ammunition was ridiculously scarce. (Intentionally so: https://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/08/17/why-i...) There is rarely the opportunity for a stand-up gunfight, very much unlike the original Deus Ex, to break up the monotony.
The ammo problem wasn't much of an issue for me, as I went for a strictly non-lethal playthrough (for which I was annoyingly denied the achievement, as one of the guards I tranq'd immediately fell unconscious...off a roof).
The unavoidable boss-fights were certainly something of a shock at the time.
The unavoidable boss-fights were certainly something of a shock at the time.
Yeah, the main problem is that HR encourages much more intense character specialization than the original game. The latter half of Deus Ex has a lot of situations where you're expected to fight (although you can generally cheese your way through, run past enemies, etc.) but there's a limit to how much you can overinvest in non-combat skills, and the inventory is spacious enough that you can afford to tote around heavy weaponry to get through tough spots (any character can effectively use mines/grenades and they take up very little space).
At launch the boss fights were much worse. They updated it to provide alternative solutions to most or all of them, at some point.
Somehow it got away with the same “click a button, get a cutscene” ending as Mass Effect 3 without the same level of outrage. Deeply boring game even at the time.
The original DX, on the other hand - it took me years to get past the first level, but once I did it was really engaging.
The original DX, on the other hand - it took me years to get past the first level, but once I did it was really engaging.
Deus Ex went downhill over time. First was great. Second was not much meh. Third had stupid boss fights and I decided that trying to finish it is not worth time.
Mankind Divided was such a letdown...
That’s funny, Deus Ex is probably the oldest game I re-played that I actually finished again (with mods) as it felt far less clunky than even some games only 10 years old.
Have you tried the older games? Maybe I'm biased since I played them when they were new but I believe they're still very much playable.
There are overhaul mods like GMDX, New Vision and Deus Ex: Revision (which I'd rank from best to worst in that order) that are meant to make it a bit nicer too.
There are overhaul mods like GMDX, New Vision and Deus Ex: Revision (which I'd rank from best to worst in that order) that are meant to make it a bit nicer too.
What's the oldest viable game to you, now?
I just played the first Mass Effect for the first time, and was really impressed by how well it had aged for a game from 2007.
I replayed the first Bioshock (also from 2007) not long ago, too, and it, too, holds up IMO.
Could we get further back than 2007?
I just played the first Mass Effect for the first time, and was really impressed by how well it had aged for a game from 2007.
I replayed the first Bioshock (also from 2007) not long ago, too, and it, too, holds up IMO.
Could we get further back than 2007?
IMHO Perfect Dark is one of the oldest shooters that holds up (play the version on the Xbox 360, maybe also the XBone, not sure). Yeah yeah it's a console shooter, but it's outstanding and hi-res + dual-stick controls make it feel modern-enough. Do note that it has two two-player campaign modes in addition to regular single player: co-op, and... versus. Yes, versus. Also be aware the difficulty modes change the objectives significantly, and sometimes also your starting position, so if it seems weirdly short bump up the difficulty.
I think some of the original frantic shooters hold up alright, for what they are. Quake, stuff like that. They're kinda niche genre now, though. Not sure about the early Dooms, hard to judge those as easily. I like them, still, but...
The Half Life remake in the HL2 engine (Black Mesa) is very true to the spirit of the original and smoothes its rough edges off very elegantly, but the original's probably still fairly playable, too.
First mass effect, oof. It suffers from a lot of "which of the three buildings they made will this quest take place in?". Also having enemies walk right past your AI teammates, who are busy doing nothing, to shoot you in the back over. And over. And over. Gets really frustrating after a while. Two is so much better. You're in for a treat.
[EDIT] on reflection the one mechanic that probably feels off to a modern player in Perfect Dark, and indeed in many older shooters, is having thrown weapons treated like ordinary weapons, rather than a secondary attack with a separate set of items to cycle through. That is, you have to switch away from your gun to arm a thrown weapon, then throw it, then switch back. That's a little clunky. IIRC throwing-is-separate model wasn't popularized until the first Modern Warfare (I've played the first Call of Duty recently and I don't think it was in that, yet—man, talk about one that doesn't seem nearly as good on re-visiting)
I think some of the original frantic shooters hold up alright, for what they are. Quake, stuff like that. They're kinda niche genre now, though. Not sure about the early Dooms, hard to judge those as easily. I like them, still, but...
The Half Life remake in the HL2 engine (Black Mesa) is very true to the spirit of the original and smoothes its rough edges off very elegantly, but the original's probably still fairly playable, too.
First mass effect, oof. It suffers from a lot of "which of the three buildings they made will this quest take place in?". Also having enemies walk right past your AI teammates, who are busy doing nothing, to shoot you in the back over. And over. And over. Gets really frustrating after a while. Two is so much better. You're in for a treat.
[EDIT] on reflection the one mechanic that probably feels off to a modern player in Perfect Dark, and indeed in many older shooters, is having thrown weapons treated like ordinary weapons, rather than a secondary attack with a separate set of items to cycle through. That is, you have to switch away from your gun to arm a thrown weapon, then throw it, then switch back. That's a little clunky. IIRC throwing-is-separate model wasn't popularized until the first Modern Warfare (I've played the first Call of Duty recently and I don't think it was in that, yet—man, talk about one that doesn't seem nearly as good on re-visiting)
> (play the version on the Xbox 360, maybe also the XBone, not sure)
Perfect Dark on the Xbox One is a lovely bit of emulator stacking: it's running in the Xbox 360 VM on the Xbox One, and the 360 game is itself running a custom Microsoft N64 emulator. It works much better than you think it should given the layers upon layers of indirection; many kudos to Microsoft's game VM and emulator teams for some of the hoops they've gone through over the years.
A good way to pick up Perfect Dark for the Xbox One is the Rare Replay pack. Sometimes you can find it for surprisingly cheap given the wealth that exists inside it. In addition to Perfect Dark and its 360 launch title prequel Perfect Dark Zero, it's about as complete a set of Rare's extensive back catalog as Microsoft's lawyers could muster the licenses for (so none of the games with Nintendo owned characters, though it sounds like they almost succeeded in convincing Nintendo, and also not Goldeneye which was bogged down with licensing issues between both Nintendo and EON Productions, the Bond license owners, and apparently truly scuttled at the very last minute based on intended behind the scenes features that wound up on YouTube anyway), plus some fun Behind-the-Scenes featurettes.
Perfect Dark on the Xbox One is a lovely bit of emulator stacking: it's running in the Xbox 360 VM on the Xbox One, and the 360 game is itself running a custom Microsoft N64 emulator. It works much better than you think it should given the layers upon layers of indirection; many kudos to Microsoft's game VM and emulator teams for some of the hoops they've gone through over the years.
A good way to pick up Perfect Dark for the Xbox One is the Rare Replay pack. Sometimes you can find it for surprisingly cheap given the wealth that exists inside it. In addition to Perfect Dark and its 360 launch title prequel Perfect Dark Zero, it's about as complete a set of Rare's extensive back catalog as Microsoft's lawyers could muster the licenses for (so none of the games with Nintendo owned characters, though it sounds like they almost succeeded in convincing Nintendo, and also not Goldeneye which was bogged down with licensing issues between both Nintendo and EON Productions, the Bond license owners, and apparently truly scuttled at the very last minute based on intended behind the scenes features that wound up on YouTube anyway), plus some fun Behind-the-Scenes featurettes.
Depends on the type of game I think. I recently played a few older adventure games like The Dig[1] (1995) and enjoyed them a lot, but early 3D games are a rough deal.
I did replay Tron 2.0[2] (2003) a few years ago and it was passable, though I think the art direction helped a lot. But I've also tried to play some games I really enjoyed back around y2k and yeah... mostly had to give up even though I got them to run fine.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dig_(video_game)
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tron_2.0
I did replay Tron 2.0[2] (2003) a few years ago and it was passable, though I think the art direction helped a lot. But I've also tried to play some games I really enjoyed back around y2k and yeah... mostly had to give up even though I got them to run fine.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dig_(video_game)
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tron_2.0
I recently replayed the original Halo (2001) and it holds up fantastically (although it's more obvious how long the samey corridors are between the brilliant set-pieces). The original Half-Life (1998) probably would as well. LAN Quake is still entertaining.
If you expand the remit to 2D games since they depend much less on tech, the retrogaming community has lots to offer.
If you expand the remit to 2D games since they depend much less on tech, the retrogaming community has lots to offer.
I was riveted by Half-Life in 1998, but I recently picked up it's well regarded remake Black Mesa (which updates the graphics to approximately 2006 levels) and IMO, it doesn't hold up at all.
Nothing about it is epic - it feels like a cramped dungeon crawl. The gameplay and puzzles are extremely simplistic (lots of slow moving enemies crawling down a hallway). The story is a bad B-movie compared to some of the compelling modern games that are raising world-building to new levels. When you compare it to modern games, I don't see how anyone could justify spending more than an hour or two on nostalgia playing.
Nothing about it is epic - it feels like a cramped dungeon crawl. The gameplay and puzzles are extremely simplistic (lots of slow moving enemies crawling down a hallway). The story is a bad B-movie compared to some of the compelling modern games that are raising world-building to new levels. When you compare it to modern games, I don't see how anyone could justify spending more than an hour or two on nostalgia playing.
Probably not what you're really asking, but many of the Infocom text adventures are still pretty playable. Yes, the parser is quite dumb but the writing and plots are still quite compelling. Graphical games through at least the 1990s probably don't hold up as well, except as nostalgia.
I think 2007 is exactly the year. I’m playing Bioshock now, so much fun. But Deus Ex from 2000 is clunky.
I’d say 2004:
- Half Life 2. I recently started playing it again (for catharsis, when DC was under military occupation a few weeks ago—drones, helicopters, gas-masked cops and all), and woo boy is that game still jaw-dropping to me. Plus, games built on its engine, like TF2 and L4D2, are still popular.
- World of Warcraft. I never got into this game at the time (was still a recovering EverQuest addict), but sometimes I pop on the free edition and level a character to 20. It’s still the largest MMO by player base.
- Also: Knights of the Old Republic II, The Sims 2 (best Sims imo), Metal Gear Solid 3, Halo 2, Metroid Prime 2
- Half Life 2. I recently started playing it again (for catharsis, when DC was under military occupation a few weeks ago—drones, helicopters, gas-masked cops and all), and woo boy is that game still jaw-dropping to me. Plus, games built on its engine, like TF2 and L4D2, are still popular.
- World of Warcraft. I never got into this game at the time (was still a recovering EverQuest addict), but sometimes I pop on the free edition and level a character to 20. It’s still the largest MMO by player base.
- Also: Knights of the Old Republic II, The Sims 2 (best Sims imo), Metal Gear Solid 3, Halo 2, Metroid Prime 2
I still occasionally play Total Annihilation (97) and, somewhat more amusingly, Populous II (91) via an Amiga emulator.
despite the clunky interfaces i had not much trouble replaying fallout 1 & 2 recently (1997-98). I've also often replayed Master of Orion 2 (1996) and SimCity 3000 (1999).
And if you're willing to go with simpler games Pac-man (1980) and tetris (1984) both still hold up, as does Arkanoid (1986).
And if you're willing to go with simpler games Pac-man (1980) and tetris (1984) both still hold up, as does Arkanoid (1986).
Your wish has been granted. Look for “Deus Ex Revision” on Steam, it's even free.
It's Windows only, but I managed to get it running inside Wineskin on my Mac :)
It's Windows only, but I managed to get it running inside Wineskin on my Mac :)
> “We were very influenced by three games: Thief, System Shock 2 and Half-Life.”
Personally I got a lot more enjoyment from those games than I did Deus Ex. Particularly SS2 which still remains one of the most atmospheric games I've ever played and one of the few ones to make be jump and literally scared at times too.
Not taking anything away from Deus Ex, but at the time it didn't feel as genre defining as the others that inspired it.
Personally I got a lot more enjoyment from those games than I did Deus Ex. Particularly SS2 which still remains one of the most atmospheric games I've ever played and one of the few ones to make be jump and literally scared at times too.
Not taking anything away from Deus Ex, but at the time it didn't feel as genre defining as the others that inspired it.
I've been meaning to play SS2. Do you think I'd be confused to jump in there or should I play the first?
You won't lose much by not playing the first one. It's more tedious than the second installment, so I would try them in reverse order just for this reason.
The intro of SS2 does a pretty good recap of the first game and from there on SS2 is it's own game.
You don't need to play the first. There are some references to it in SS2 but it's not a big deal.
I’ve heard the first one is a totally different game and that System Shock 2 stands alone.
Still one of the best games ever released.
The gameplay is clunky now in comparison to modern gaming, but the story is still one of the most compelling in the field.
Agree with the above -- would love to see it remade using modern engine.
The gameplay is clunky now in comparison to modern gaming, but the story is still one of the most compelling in the field.
Agree with the above -- would love to see it remade using modern engine.
Phenomenal loading times.
Large empty levels like liberty island.
Brilliant puzzles like picking the lock on an office (destroying the lock pick) so you can steal a lock pick from the office.
My favourite was the well-timed cache misses that would immediately freeze the game, e.g. the first time you fire a shot in combat, then restore interactivity after you die in fast-forward.
But it's all worth it because you're a badass cyborg with a flashlight, i mean, "augmented vision".
Large empty levels like liberty island.
Brilliant puzzles like picking the lock on an office (destroying the lock pick) so you can steal a lock pick from the office.
My favourite was the well-timed cache misses that would immediately freeze the game, e.g. the first time you fire a shot in combat, then restore interactivity after you die in fast-forward.
But it's all worth it because you're a badass cyborg with a flashlight, i mean, "augmented vision".
> ‘Just run the studio, we’ll pay the bills and keep you isolated from anything that’s happening up here in Dallas’.
I don't think this can happen today and I also believe this is the reason we don't see anything close to the original Deus Ex.