Ask HN: How do you maintain a satisfying lifestyle when working remotely?
22 comments
> In contrast with them, I feel like a weirdo, mumbling and struggling to come up with anything interesting to say.
I doubt you're a weirdo. It sounds like you have navigated through a set of priorities that positioned you as more of a social introvert.
It also sounds like you are in search of a new skillset or social system though?
I am a personality expert and trainer by vocation, and find that it's even easier to relate socially if one is more interested in other people in general, through one's preferred lenses and tools. Not all of us are interested in others for the standard socializing reasons, by default, and there could be many good reasons for that. One of the best reasons is that you have access to different psychological tools that are less social by nature.
Various personality models from FFM to Temperament can be pretty fun as a way of figuring people out like a puzzle, and a lot of people enjoy talking about themselves when asked gently about their work environment, how they like their work these days, if they commute in or live close by, etc. Some of these same simple questions can even help one to really understand another a person's model of life and even their idea of reality.
If someone acts informational, it can also be fun to try asking them about theory, see if they have more of an HN-comments mindset. I had a radiologist get all geeky on me once, in response to a simple question, and the conversation got way more informational and also more socially awkward from there. The guy followed me out of the office to continue our convo. It was pretty funny.
A while back I became a handwriting analyst for fun and some time after, I started a conversation with my dentist about a specific part of his handwriting that struck my interest. Within seconds we were talking about his hobbies like fantasy gaming and fantasy novels, which is also a shared interest, so it was easy to build rapport from there.
(The above may seem to fall into specific advice though; if so sorry about that; it's part of my story ;-))
> If you're an IT nerd spending better part of your life in a cave, well, that's who you are, no matter how much you make, what car you drive, etc.
That could be one interpretation, though I'd add that it's a bit more of A) an outside-in perspective, and B) a hyperbolic one--but another interpretation could be that you're an intelligent, healthy person who knows their limits and personal preferences.
The outside-in aspect is important because some people will feel a lot of pressure to be demonstrative, in a sense, in their social lifestyle. So when they start to get social, they end up doing so in a showy way, by avoiding some part of themselves that they don't think is good enough. This type of effort can easily backfire and often doesn't get them the results they want.
Often these people give a lot of attention to intuiting what others will think, or like, or appreciate. But this gift can be dangerous if brought directly from one's inner world to the outside world, because any subjective-perceptive mode generally has a level of quality matched to one's subjective past experience. This means if you've been mainly listening to your own ideas for a long time, those ideas or perceptions may not work so well in a social context.
Unfortunately quite often this same person will navigate into social relationships with a fear of stereotype, and paint the life they're moving away from as some kind of comically awkward life, which can actually be an example of a tendency that is wise to avoid during this kind of life move.
It's usually more helpful all around to talk about specifics one doesn't like about social situations from their past, and to attempt to describe or spec out the kind of person that you want to become.
The outside-in attention to personal performance/stage role (so to speak) also helps individuals build up a perception of social dominance or prowess in a lot of ways. But this can also become a critical blindspot (display and prowess as opposed to e.g. social contribution and dependability) and lead to social blunder after blunder. That's just one important reason to understand oneself better as part of exploring this kind of transition.
I had a similar general life trajectory that led to me becoming a trainer and coach. I used to do a lot more corporate training work, and started to get inquiries from international clientele.
It was fun to see people laugh at jokes or tell me they enjoyed presentations. I enjoyed making new friends from all over the world, and meeting up with them in person. But after tracking my energy metrics for a while, I decided that the subjective side of life was more interesting and kind to me in general.
It's nice to be able to get social when needed, but overall I find that I get way more leverage, enjoyment, and energetic rewards while working in this inside-mode, and only occasionally transitioning to the outside.
Good luck to you on your journey.
I doubt you're a weirdo. It sounds like you have navigated through a set of priorities that positioned you as more of a social introvert.
It also sounds like you are in search of a new skillset or social system though?
I am a personality expert and trainer by vocation, and find that it's even easier to relate socially if one is more interested in other people in general, through one's preferred lenses and tools. Not all of us are interested in others for the standard socializing reasons, by default, and there could be many good reasons for that. One of the best reasons is that you have access to different psychological tools that are less social by nature.
Various personality models from FFM to Temperament can be pretty fun as a way of figuring people out like a puzzle, and a lot of people enjoy talking about themselves when asked gently about their work environment, how they like their work these days, if they commute in or live close by, etc. Some of these same simple questions can even help one to really understand another a person's model of life and even their idea of reality.
If someone acts informational, it can also be fun to try asking them about theory, see if they have more of an HN-comments mindset. I had a radiologist get all geeky on me once, in response to a simple question, and the conversation got way more informational and also more socially awkward from there. The guy followed me out of the office to continue our convo. It was pretty funny.
A while back I became a handwriting analyst for fun and some time after, I started a conversation with my dentist about a specific part of his handwriting that struck my interest. Within seconds we were talking about his hobbies like fantasy gaming and fantasy novels, which is also a shared interest, so it was easy to build rapport from there.
(The above may seem to fall into specific advice though; if so sorry about that; it's part of my story ;-))
> If you're an IT nerd spending better part of your life in a cave, well, that's who you are, no matter how much you make, what car you drive, etc.
That could be one interpretation, though I'd add that it's a bit more of A) an outside-in perspective, and B) a hyperbolic one--but another interpretation could be that you're an intelligent, healthy person who knows their limits and personal preferences.
The outside-in aspect is important because some people will feel a lot of pressure to be demonstrative, in a sense, in their social lifestyle. So when they start to get social, they end up doing so in a showy way, by avoiding some part of themselves that they don't think is good enough. This type of effort can easily backfire and often doesn't get them the results they want.
Often these people give a lot of attention to intuiting what others will think, or like, or appreciate. But this gift can be dangerous if brought directly from one's inner world to the outside world, because any subjective-perceptive mode generally has a level of quality matched to one's subjective past experience. This means if you've been mainly listening to your own ideas for a long time, those ideas or perceptions may not work so well in a social context.
Unfortunately quite often this same person will navigate into social relationships with a fear of stereotype, and paint the life they're moving away from as some kind of comically awkward life, which can actually be an example of a tendency that is wise to avoid during this kind of life move.
It's usually more helpful all around to talk about specifics one doesn't like about social situations from their past, and to attempt to describe or spec out the kind of person that you want to become.
The outside-in attention to personal performance/stage role (so to speak) also helps individuals build up a perception of social dominance or prowess in a lot of ways. But this can also become a critical blindspot (display and prowess as opposed to e.g. social contribution and dependability) and lead to social blunder after blunder. That's just one important reason to understand oneself better as part of exploring this kind of transition.
I had a similar general life trajectory that led to me becoming a trainer and coach. I used to do a lot more corporate training work, and started to get inquiries from international clientele.
It was fun to see people laugh at jokes or tell me they enjoyed presentations. I enjoyed making new friends from all over the world, and meeting up with them in person. But after tracking my energy metrics for a while, I decided that the subjective side of life was more interesting and kind to me in general.
It's nice to be able to get social when needed, but overall I find that I get way more leverage, enjoyment, and energetic rewards while working in this inside-mode, and only occasionally transitioning to the outside.
Good luck to you on your journey.
What a great story, thank you for the time to write such a thorough answer.
Progressing from an introvert to a coach/trainer sounds like a tremendous accomplishment.
> It sounds like you have navigated through a set of priorities that positioned you as more of a social introvert.
I may have been overly jaded / hyperbolic in my original post, but this pretty much sums up my point.
Working remotely comes with some amazing perks, but in the long term, it naturally nudges you, day by day, towards becoming an introvert with a boring, sedentary life. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, but for some it may just not seem like the best possible version of themselves.
The question is, what are the different ways and tricks to navigate your life and grow your personality in a more fulfilling direction.
Progressing from an introvert to a coach/trainer sounds like a tremendous accomplishment.
> It sounds like you have navigated through a set of priorities that positioned you as more of a social introvert.
I may have been overly jaded / hyperbolic in my original post, but this pretty much sums up my point.
Working remotely comes with some amazing perks, but in the long term, it naturally nudges you, day by day, towards becoming an introvert with a boring, sedentary life. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that, but for some it may just not seem like the best possible version of themselves.
The question is, what are the different ways and tricks to navigate your life and grow your personality in a more fulfilling direction.
I can’t articulate or explain it better but I feel strongly you aren’t looking at it the right way.
I’ve struggled with this and my solution was to quit and change career to be a tradesman, starting school again at the end of the month.
A novel was written about this from the relationship side in the 90’s by a webdev: Whatever by Michel Houellebecq, I haven’t read it but it’s in the mail.
A novel was written about this from the relationship side in the 90’s by a webdev: Whatever by Michel Houellebecq, I haven’t read it but it’s in the mail.
Just curious, what trade? I was a tradesman (upholsterer) before I was a programmer, and it had its ups and its downs. Moving the body around all day and actually improving the physical world were big highlights though!
Electrician. Yeah working in the physical world was another aspect of the decision, I’ve been taking labouring jobs in the mean time and it’s much more social, makes me much more fit and is much more satisfying.
The other comments in this thread involve piling on a second job or getting deep in a hobby, which ate up the rest of my time and never quite worked. This comment by Xenophon summed up programming for me, even though I still enjoy it:
‘Men do indeed speak ill of those occupations which are called handicrafts, and they are rightly held of little repute in communities, because they weaken the bodies of those who make their living at them by compelling them to sit and pass their days indoors. Some indeed work all the time by a fire. But when the body becomes effeminate (thelunomenos) the mind too is debilitated. Besides, these mechanical occupations (banausos) leave a man no leisure to attend to his friends' interests, or the public interest. This class therefore cannot be of much use to his friends or defend his country. Indeed, some states, especially the most warlike, do not allow a citizen to engage in these handicraft occupations.’
The other comments in this thread involve piling on a second job or getting deep in a hobby, which ate up the rest of my time and never quite worked. This comment by Xenophon summed up programming for me, even though I still enjoy it:
‘Men do indeed speak ill of those occupations which are called handicrafts, and they are rightly held of little repute in communities, because they weaken the bodies of those who make their living at them by compelling them to sit and pass their days indoors. Some indeed work all the time by a fire. But when the body becomes effeminate (thelunomenos) the mind too is debilitated. Besides, these mechanical occupations (banausos) leave a man no leisure to attend to his friends' interests, or the public interest. This class therefore cannot be of much use to his friends or defend his country. Indeed, some states, especially the most warlike, do not allow a citizen to engage in these handicraft occupations.’
“Michel Houellebecq”. I haven’t heard that name in a long time. Are you French? About 23 years ago I was discussing one of his books in an web forum for a French lit class I took. The professor knew him and Michel participated in the discussion. It was pretty cool!
Nice, I hope it works out for you! Would you mind sharing how old are you now?
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Ah the human (or maybe mammalian?) concept of social status.
In the animal world there probably are life and death reasons (getting food, physical security, etc.) for fitting in a social status/hierarchy. You have skills and income that eliminate that from being something you need to be concerned with in modern human society.
You state you've been freelancing for 10 years and make 2x more than devs that are local. I'd say that is pretty successful and there are probably others that are envious of your position. Put yourself into a doctor or lawyers shoes and think of all the societal and career forces pushing on them. For example a doctor may have to perform their job in certain ways they do not like because of how health insurance works. They may dislike the very system they work in because at times the system hurts patients financially. If you get into a deep conversation with a doctor, find out how much freedom they have in their work and how many hours they put in. They may be envious of you because you are freelance and remote and you could just become a digital nomad for a month and have nothing forcing you to be somewhere.
In the animal world there probably are life and death reasons (getting food, physical security, etc.) for fitting in a social status/hierarchy. You have skills and income that eliminate that from being something you need to be concerned with in modern human society.
You state you've been freelancing for 10 years and make 2x more than devs that are local. I'd say that is pretty successful and there are probably others that are envious of your position. Put yourself into a doctor or lawyers shoes and think of all the societal and career forces pushing on them. For example a doctor may have to perform their job in certain ways they do not like because of how health insurance works. They may dislike the very system they work in because at times the system hurts patients financially. If you get into a deep conversation with a doctor, find out how much freedom they have in their work and how many hours they put in. They may be envious of you because you are freelance and remote and you could just become a digital nomad for a month and have nothing forcing you to be somewhere.
> In the animal world there probably are life and death reasons (getting food, physical security, etc.) for fitting in a social status/hierarchy. You have skills and income that eliminate that from being something you need to be concerned with in modern human society.
Sure, but if you already have food, shelter and safety, what else is there to live for?
Some people argue that social status is a deeply rooted part of our animal (not only mammalian) nature, rather than merely a concept, and that it's necessary for your long term well-being [1].
[1] https://www.ulm.edu/~palmer/TheBiochemistryofStatusandtheFun...
Sure, but if you already have food, shelter and safety, what else is there to live for?
Some people argue that social status is a deeply rooted part of our animal (not only mammalian) nature, rather than merely a concept, and that it's necessary for your long term well-being [1].
[1] https://www.ulm.edu/~palmer/TheBiochemistryofStatusandtheFun...
I doubt remote work is the sole root cause for this. My communications had to improve when I went remote a decade ago. I had to do better at softer skills to work well with remote teams. It was in an office where I would see people roll in, sit in their cube, and lock into a stagnant routine.
I'd suggest that your focus should be on what your interactions are and with who, not where you sit when you have them. I'd also suggest that "social status" is a worthless measuring stick. Are you happy with who you are and where you are? If so, who cares what other people think or how you compare? And if not, step up and make a change to fix it.
I'd suggest that your focus should be on what your interactions are and with who, not where you sit when you have them. I'd also suggest that "social status" is a worthless measuring stick. Are you happy with who you are and where you are? If so, who cares what other people think or how you compare? And if not, step up and make a change to fix it.
There is value in the forced interactions of a workplace, especially for introverts (like myself) who are perfectly capable/happy to go days or weeks without in-person communication. Eloquence requires practice to acquire and maintain and you get less practice when working remotely.
However, the forced interactions of a workplace lack quality and diversity of topics and audience, especially when compared to the vast opportunities for human connection outside of work.
It's sort of like saying, "Now that I'm no longer busting rocks on a chain gang, I don't get any physical exercise." The response to which would be fairly straightforward, right? Join a gym, exercise at home, take up weightlifting as a hobby, etc.
I think you would do well to find a new, better "gym" where you can exercise the skills you mention. For example:
- Volunteer somewhere that will put you alongside other people (e.g. Habitat for Humanity or a social cause).
- Attend networking events. Even if you aren't looking for a job, treat it like the gym. You are there to exercise.
- Join a public speaking group (e.g. Toastmasters).
- When you do go out (e.g. to the grocery store or a bar), strike up conversation with a stranger.
- Throw a party at your place. Invite a variety of people.
- Start a video diary. Instead of daily written entries, record short videos about literally anything going on in your world.
- Join a hobbyist group. You don't have to know anything at all about that hobby. Choose something you find intriguing. Don't overthink it.
- Read a book out loud. Yes, even vocalizing alone is good exercise as it forces you to do what you're missing when working remotely, which is to quiet your mind and focus on speech.
In short, working remotely gives you more time and--for introverts--more energy. Use those precious resources to your advantage.
However, the forced interactions of a workplace lack quality and diversity of topics and audience, especially when compared to the vast opportunities for human connection outside of work.
It's sort of like saying, "Now that I'm no longer busting rocks on a chain gang, I don't get any physical exercise." The response to which would be fairly straightforward, right? Join a gym, exercise at home, take up weightlifting as a hobby, etc.
I think you would do well to find a new, better "gym" where you can exercise the skills you mention. For example:
- Volunteer somewhere that will put you alongside other people (e.g. Habitat for Humanity or a social cause).
- Attend networking events. Even if you aren't looking for a job, treat it like the gym. You are there to exercise.
- Join a public speaking group (e.g. Toastmasters).
- When you do go out (e.g. to the grocery store or a bar), strike up conversation with a stranger.
- Throw a party at your place. Invite a variety of people.
- Start a video diary. Instead of daily written entries, record short videos about literally anything going on in your world.
- Join a hobbyist group. You don't have to know anything at all about that hobby. Choose something you find intriguing. Don't overthink it.
- Read a book out loud. Yes, even vocalizing alone is good exercise as it forces you to do what you're missing when working remotely, which is to quiet your mind and focus on speech.
In short, working remotely gives you more time and--for introverts--more energy. Use those precious resources to your advantage.
> It's sort of like saying, "Now that I'm no longer busting rocks on a chain gang, I don't get any physical exercise." The response to which would be fairly straightforward, right? Join a gym, exercise at home, take up weightlifting as a hobby, etc
Well, I'm pretty sure the average construction worker is way stronger and tougher than the average coder with a gym subscription.
Try comparing a hobby musician with a professional one. The first one may be devoted, but he'll have a natural tendency to practice songs that he personally likes, and up to the level which is personally acceptable to him. Unless he gets bored and ends up browsing memes for the rest of the evening. The professional one will have to learn all kinds of different material, at the level required for playing to the audience, and for a specific deadline.
I've tried some of the items from your list, especially in my 20s I had quite an active hobby life, but if socializing with people requires an active effort, not always works out, and you don't have strong external motivations, you eventually end up looking for excuses to browse memes in the evenings.
Not to mention that accomplished people tend to stay in their own social circles, and don't usually hang around networking events / hobby groups looking for new people to meet.
> - Read a book out loud. Yes, even vocalizing alone is good exercise as it forces you to do what you're missing when working remotely, which is to quiet your mind and focus on speech.
This sounds like a particularly depressing idea. I absolutely don't want to be spending my life reading books out loud to practice my own speaking.
Well, I'm pretty sure the average construction worker is way stronger and tougher than the average coder with a gym subscription.
Try comparing a hobby musician with a professional one. The first one may be devoted, but he'll have a natural tendency to practice songs that he personally likes, and up to the level which is personally acceptable to him. Unless he gets bored and ends up browsing memes for the rest of the evening. The professional one will have to learn all kinds of different material, at the level required for playing to the audience, and for a specific deadline.
I've tried some of the items from your list, especially in my 20s I had quite an active hobby life, but if socializing with people requires an active effort, not always works out, and you don't have strong external motivations, you eventually end up looking for excuses to browse memes in the evenings.
Not to mention that accomplished people tend to stay in their own social circles, and don't usually hang around networking events / hobby groups looking for new people to meet.
> - Read a book out loud. Yes, even vocalizing alone is good exercise as it forces you to do what you're missing when working remotely, which is to quiet your mind and focus on speech.
This sounds like a particularly depressing idea. I absolutely don't want to be spending my life reading books out loud to practice my own speaking.
[deleted]
I'm nearing the end of my 20's and feel the same way.
1. I think it's because of the hard logical core of our jobs. Always thinking of edge-cases etc. It makes this pure logical part overly influencial.
2. There's absolutely no need for much social interaction to do your job well. This gets you rusty at a common skill, small talk and finding commonalities. Since you're rusty, even doing it is a bit exhausting.
I def feel like I've gotten too hard logical and it's taken away from what should be very relaxed, festive, and straightforward interactions.
It's very tough to throw away a job where you're making good money in an efficient amount of hours.
I would say the solution is to put yourself in hobbies where you have to converse. Language meetups, running meetups, friend group outtings, etc. Also get into a side-project where you have to converse a lot - building stuff together quickly with friends on the weekend in person. Look at copywriting and maybe even just post random Youtube videos describing what you're doing in your life.
1. I think it's because of the hard logical core of our jobs. Always thinking of edge-cases etc. It makes this pure logical part overly influencial.
2. There's absolutely no need for much social interaction to do your job well. This gets you rusty at a common skill, small talk and finding commonalities. Since you're rusty, even doing it is a bit exhausting.
I def feel like I've gotten too hard logical and it's taken away from what should be very relaxed, festive, and straightforward interactions.
It's very tough to throw away a job where you're making good money in an efficient amount of hours.
I would say the solution is to put yourself in hobbies where you have to converse. Language meetups, running meetups, friend group outtings, etc. Also get into a side-project where you have to converse a lot - building stuff together quickly with friends on the weekend in person. Look at copywriting and maybe even just post random Youtube videos describing what you're doing in your life.
Get a second job in a socially interactive environment. I worked at Lowe's. You have to talk to people to help them find stuff or suggest items for their project. Pay sucks, but crappy midlevel devs like me are used to that (hence my second job).
Maybe remote working is a symptom rather than a cause here.
It’s also relatively rare to come across devs who are as eloquent as people in other fields (they do exist obviously) though I have come across many curt and quiet lawyers and accountants.
I think the best bet is to get this from somewhere else, I found dating really helped me. You need thick skin for that one. Maybe helping out in the community or joining a sports team might give you what you’re after.
It’s also relatively rare to come across devs who are as eloquent as people in other fields (they do exist obviously) though I have come across many curt and quiet lawyers and accountants.
I think the best bet is to get this from somewhere else, I found dating really helped me. You need thick skin for that one. Maybe helping out in the community or joining a sports team might give you what you’re after.
Find your love, make a family, kids etc.
Or at least try some really exciting hobbies that require interactions with people (how hard is it to sing up to nearest alpinists club or mma gym if you can say at least few words out loud?)
This will take your attention away from this meaningless self overthinking about stuff that doesn’t really exist (except in your head).
Been there.
Or at least try some really exciting hobbies that require interactions with people (how hard is it to sing up to nearest alpinists club or mma gym if you can say at least few words out loud?)
This will take your attention away from this meaningless self overthinking about stuff that doesn’t really exist (except in your head).
Been there.
I've been working remotely 9 out of 10 of my working years.
I understand the isolation. In my case I tried to balance it by having a very active social life with friends.
Attending meetups from meetup.com and actively writing friends working in similar fields to meet for lunch once a week to try to get some missed colleguage-2-colleague interaction.
Some other friends also tried joining a coworking space.
I loved the freedom of it, but now in my mid-30s, I'm starting to notice how detrimental it was to my social life, skills and status. While I'm doing OK among other devs, whenever I meet with a doctor, a lawyer, a corporate person, heck even my coach, I'm envious of how eloquent, confident and composed they are. In contrast with them, I feel like a weirdo, mumbling and struggling to come up with anything interesting to say.
A younger me used to think that work was only supposed to support your "passions", but it turned out these tend to get old, and at some point it's your job that really shapes you the most, determines your lifestyle, and your position in the flock. If you're an IT nerd spending better part of your life in a cave, well, that's who you are, no matter how much you make, what car you drive, etc.
Even with hobbies and going out on your own, it's really hard to break out of your bubble. They're not nearly a replacement for and everyday forced and purposeful interaction with different types of people, especially of a higher social status than yours. Forced on you, but even more importantly, also on them ;)
Anyhow, not looking for any specific advice, just wondering if anyone had a similar experience, or maybe a success story to share.