Senet and Helium Announce LoRaWAN Network Integration Partnership(senetco.com)
senetco.com
Senet and Helium Announce LoRaWAN Network Integration Partnership
https://www.senetco.com/about/news/senet-and-helium-announce-lorawan-network-integration-partnership/
55 comments
Geography is the resource
The nodes need space between them
You might like this one
The nodes need space between them
You might like this one
There is a concept of saturation in Helium network. You can see the effect in real time as rewards are plummeting in oversubscribed areas like San Francisco. Too many nodes --> reward scale goes down --> network deployments percolate towards the perimeter where ROI is better --> Network grows in geographic coverage.
This is the beauty of the proof of coverage scheme. Its an awesome way to distribute rewards to people who provide valuable coverage while simultaneously creating a force to disperse over a large geographic area.
This is the beauty of the proof of coverage scheme. Its an awesome way to distribute rewards to people who provide valuable coverage while simultaneously creating a force to disperse over a large geographic area.
I think the Helium project is a fascinating experiment, and I’ve had a lot of fun participating in it. I’ve been tracking my experience for a while (with pictures): [0]
It’s certainly a weird project, and watching the corporation contort itself into something coordinated enough to drive partnerships like this but decentralized enough to qualify as a cryptocurrency is a sight to behold.
The governance of this project isn’t “decentralized” in any strict sense of the word, but the separation of the dewi alliance from the main corporate entity is interesting.
The self-imposed technical constraints are equally fun to observe. The scaling issues (gossiping blockchain data across 100k+ raspberry pi devices with no broker) are insane, and the incentive mechanism for “validators” is an interesting incremental solution. Specifically, people ”stake” $200k on cheap cloud servers, which might earn money for a few hrs a week when elected to a “consensus group.” This made sense historically (on distributed raspberry pi devices) but is now really strange compared to most other blockchains where validators earn consistently.
Every one of these issues is a bottomless pit of learning opportunities as worlds collide (economics, telecom incentives, cryptocurrency price swings, hobbyist antennas, etc…).
I’m no maximalist (I’ve sold lots of coins), but there is something deeply fun about watching _anybody_ try to do something novel to compete against the old guard. That’s why I was up at 6am today to fiddle with an antenna on a friend’s roof.
0: https://gazzini.com/projects/posts/helium/
It’s certainly a weird project, and watching the corporation contort itself into something coordinated enough to drive partnerships like this but decentralized enough to qualify as a cryptocurrency is a sight to behold.
The governance of this project isn’t “decentralized” in any strict sense of the word, but the separation of the dewi alliance from the main corporate entity is interesting.
The self-imposed technical constraints are equally fun to observe. The scaling issues (gossiping blockchain data across 100k+ raspberry pi devices with no broker) are insane, and the incentive mechanism for “validators” is an interesting incremental solution. Specifically, people ”stake” $200k on cheap cloud servers, which might earn money for a few hrs a week when elected to a “consensus group.” This made sense historically (on distributed raspberry pi devices) but is now really strange compared to most other blockchains where validators earn consistently.
Every one of these issues is a bottomless pit of learning opportunities as worlds collide (economics, telecom incentives, cryptocurrency price swings, hobbyist antennas, etc…).
I’m no maximalist (I’ve sold lots of coins), but there is something deeply fun about watching _anybody_ try to do something novel to compete against the old guard. That’s why I was up at 6am today to fiddle with an antenna on a friend’s roof.
0: https://gazzini.com/projects/posts/helium/
LoRaWAN's marketing uses the word "community" a lot. Also add to that:
> The Helium Network, also known as “The People’s Network”,
...and add the fact that LoRa and LoRaWAN is corporate-controlled and patented. This is all astroturfing.
Do we really need yet another proprietary radio standard?
> “proof-of-coverage” transactions earn Hotspot owners HNT cryptocurrency
Yikes.
> The Helium Network, also known as “The People’s Network”,
...and add the fact that LoRa and LoRaWAN is corporate-controlled and patented. This is all astroturfing.
Do we really need yet another proprietary radio standard?
> “proof-of-coverage” transactions earn Hotspot owners HNT cryptocurrency
Yikes.
LoRaWAN is extremely cheap (BOM and data costs) and quite frankly old tech compared to any other standard which fills the same market need. I have a water sensor that has a battery life of 10 years and $1 pays for all the data credits it ever needs.
Helium is ultimately independent of LoRaWAN though - it's now expanding to other protocols i.e. CBRS.
Helium CBRS will be the largest neutral host carrier of 5g by 2023 :)
https://explorer.helium.com
the helium network viability is that using the network doesn't burden the consumers with the cryptocurrency's fluctuations in price or necessarily dealing with it at all. Consumers are able to use Data Credits which have a fixed price, creating data credits (DC) destroys the HNT token - of which the consumer or their future ISP will have to buy/acquire Helium tokens to do. So it creates a decent incentive for providers to build and expand the network (to earn HNT) and also a demand side as consumers (or their ISPs) to buy and destroy helium to create DC.
The antenna/routers do not use much energy and instead rely on a geographic distance which determines if they earn more or less HNT based on the coverage they are providing to the network.
the helium network viability is that using the network doesn't burden the consumers with the cryptocurrency's fluctuations in price or necessarily dealing with it at all. Consumers are able to use Data Credits which have a fixed price, creating data credits (DC) destroys the HNT token - of which the consumer or their future ISP will have to buy/acquire Helium tokens to do. So it creates a decent incentive for providers to build and expand the network (to earn HNT) and also a demand side as consumers (or their ISPs) to buy and destroy helium to create DC.
The antenna/routers do not use much energy and instead rely on a geographic distance which determines if they earn more or less HNT based on the coverage they are providing to the network.
Are there interesting open standards in a similar performance/power/range envelope?
explorer.helium.com track the growth here.
This is potentially very interesting for certain regional operations if the price is right. It’s good to have a little bit of competition against cellular.
However, nothing really competes with the coverage of cellular networks yet. Even this press release boasts about being present in 29 states. An impressive accomplishment, but it’s a non-starter for any mass market products.
If the price is low enough then this could be very attractive for local applications like sensor monitoring, smart meters, and other low bandwidth operations.
However, nothing really competes with the coverage of cellular networks yet. Even this press release boasts about being present in 29 states. An impressive accomplishment, but it’s a non-starter for any mass market products.
If the price is low enough then this could be very attractive for local applications like sensor monitoring, smart meters, and other low bandwidth operations.
This announcement is for 900Mhz (unregulated spectrum) coverage which is woefully underserved in the united states. 900Mhz LoRaWAN is for low power IoT devices. Helium is using blockchain coordination / incentive to change this equation -- where once was tons of geographically small and incompatible network, Helium is bridging them all by enabling roaming across the world at a price of $.00001 per packet (24 bytes). Most IoT application can run for years for less than a dollar since their data needs are small.
Building a low power connected wan so you can use lots of internet of things devices just leads to adding radios in your devices and them reporting back on you. Today it's impractical because of cost to have my tv spy on me if I don't have it connected to the internet. But with this, in the future they will put low power radios on tvs, refridgerators, cars, anything.
The money to pay for the crypto currency (helium) you get paid in must be coming from companies that will benefit from having these radios working.
I know it's not that there is not legit use for this in terms of sensors. But there's also no way for me to restrict devices that in things I purchase from being part of this network.
The money to pay for the crypto currency (helium) you get paid in must be coming from companies that will benefit from having these radios working.
I know it's not that there is not legit use for this in terms of sensors. But there's also no way for me to restrict devices that in things I purchase from being part of this network.
Keeping the price of connectivity high was never going to be a longterm privacy safeguard. The answer is probably legislation
> The money to pay for the crypto currency (helium) you get paid in must be coming from companies that will benefit from having these radios working.
It comes from inflation. There is an emission schedule.
The demand to offset the inflation comes from the people/organizations that want to send data over these networks - which is not the device sellers or the people that own them. Data Credits have a fixed dollar amount so the cost to use the network is always predictable, but creating a data credit requires acquiring/purchasing Helium tokens and destroying them. So the more subscribers to send data over the network, the greater demand there is for Helium tokens in order to create Data Credits.
The companies that benefit from the radios working make dollars from selling hardware to people that want to earn HNT and expand the network.
Yes, there is now a reason for there to be a lot of IOT devices reporting stuff. Okay.
It comes from inflation. There is an emission schedule.
The demand to offset the inflation comes from the people/organizations that want to send data over these networks - which is not the device sellers or the people that own them. Data Credits have a fixed dollar amount so the cost to use the network is always predictable, but creating a data credit requires acquiring/purchasing Helium tokens and destroying them. So the more subscribers to send data over the network, the greater demand there is for Helium tokens in order to create Data Credits.
The companies that benefit from the radios working make dollars from selling hardware to people that want to earn HNT and expand the network.
Yes, there is now a reason for there to be a lot of IOT devices reporting stuff. Okay.
Just use a Faraday cage in your home if you're worried about errant RF signals.
This reminded me to check up on how Althea is doing. Looks like they are changing their blockchain to something they have more control of:
https://blog.althea.net/althea/
https://blog.althea.net/althea/
I can’t take helium seriously because it’s an ICO scheme wrapped in a thinly plausible veneer of being about peer-to-peer communication.
If you come up with a peer-to-peer network technology, and you want people to take it seriously, don’t try to make a quick buck off it. If it needs payments for routing or whatever, just use an existing payment technology like lightning or something.
It would be hard to sound more like a hype scam if they tried: “Powered by the Helium Blockchain, The People’s Network represents a paradigm shift for decentralized wireless infrastructure.”
Edit: against my better judgment I read some of the technical stuff on their site. This is either decentralized in name only or vulnerable to Sybil attacks.
If you come up with a peer-to-peer network technology, and you want people to take it seriously, don’t try to make a quick buck off it. If it needs payments for routing or whatever, just use an existing payment technology like lightning or something.
It would be hard to sound more like a hype scam if they tried: “Powered by the Helium Blockchain, The People’s Network represents a paradigm shift for decentralized wireless infrastructure.”
Edit: against my better judgment I read some of the technical stuff on their site. This is either decentralized in name only or vulnerable to Sybil attacks.
> This is either decentralized in name only or vulnerable to Sybil attacks.
The Helium network does a variety of things to mitigate sybil attacks by requiring/incentivizing geographic distance between the routers.
There are other proof-of-coverage systems where all of your criticisms would apply, such as MXC (the hotspot version, not the exchange) as they do allow individuals to just hoard a bunch of hotspots in one place and try to earn, reducing the health of the network. You should reserve your judgements for the ones doing it wrong and compare it to the ones doing it right or at least differently.
The Helium network does a variety of things to mitigate sybil attacks by requiring/incentivizing geographic distance between the routers.
There are other proof-of-coverage systems where all of your criticisms would apply, such as MXC (the hotspot version, not the exchange) as they do allow individuals to just hoard a bunch of hotspots in one place and try to earn, reducing the health of the network. You should reserve your judgements for the ones doing it wrong and compare it to the ones doing it right or at least differently.
It sounds like the thing they actually do is have a centralized architecture with one entity issuing miner private keys for $40 each. It’s DINO (decentralized in name only)
so the point of decentralization pushes is for the censorship resistance. if helium organization went away today, there would still be 192,000 nodes that still get to function and perpetuate the network.
so basically, nobody cares about that particular area of centralization and it allows for vetted hardware that meets some additional standards to come onto the network (at one point they didn't gatekeep and allowed any hardware).
I think this role can go away though.
so basically, nobody cares about that particular area of centralization and it allows for vetted hardware that meets some additional standards to come onto the network (at one point they didn't gatekeep and allowed any hardware).
I think this role can go away though.
> so basically, nobody cares about that particular area of centralization
except for anyone who cares about cryptosystems actually being cryptographically secure and decentralized instead of just serving as a thin excuse to drive hype.
> I think this role can go away though.
The eternal refrain of shitcoins is “I think we can fix this later”. That never seems to end up being correct.
except for anyone who cares about cryptosystems actually being cryptographically secure and decentralized instead of just serving as a thin excuse to drive hype.
> I think this role can go away though.
The eternal refrain of shitcoins is “I think we can fix this later”. That never seems to end up being correct.
There are hundreds of tokens and projects and burn their admin keys or otherwise remove centralization where greater decentralization was a goal
If it is a goal and a part of a threat surface, I care about it
If its not, I don’t care about it and it can exist as part of a gradient instead of being a line in the sand to complain about
If it is a goal and a part of a threat surface, I care about it
If its not, I don’t care about it and it can exist as part of a gradient instead of being a line in the sand to complain about
Helium literally never did an ICO.
So funny watching bitter losers at hackernews get everything about blockchain wrong and stay poor over the past 10 years.
- Throw in some buzzwords you don't really understand like "lightning" (does not apply to helium as it is a protocol based on bitcoin script)
- use the word "scam" because you don't own any and you didn't invest a few months ago when it was pennies.
- sprinkle in some unfounded FUD about decentralization and Sybil attacks because you're bitter you still don't own any
Helium is the fastest growing wireless network on the planet.
There are currently 190,000 hotspots over the globe, up from 20,000 6-months ago. https://explorer.helium.com/
...but but but against your better judgement you read some of the technical stuff... wooooowwwww
Call me when the Helium node count drops below 100,000 again and I'll congratulate you and thank you for warning everyone about this "scam" before it was too late.
So funny watching bitter losers at hackernews get everything about blockchain wrong and stay poor over the past 10 years.
- Throw in some buzzwords you don't really understand like "lightning" (does not apply to helium as it is a protocol based on bitcoin script)
- use the word "scam" because you don't own any and you didn't invest a few months ago when it was pennies.
- sprinkle in some unfounded FUD about decentralization and Sybil attacks because you're bitter you still don't own any
Helium is the fastest growing wireless network on the planet.
There are currently 190,000 hotspots over the globe, up from 20,000 6-months ago. https://explorer.helium.com/
...but but but against your better judgement you read some of the technical stuff... wooooowwwww
Call me when the Helium node count drops below 100,000 again and I'll congratulate you and thank you for warning everyone about this "scam" before it was too late.
One scam here is that there will likely be ubiquitous sensors in your tv, door bell, car, fridge, heater and they won't be reporting back to you. They'll be telling the sellers of these devices about your activities, and it will be sold just like connected tvs today sell info about what you watch.
All these devices must be FCC certified so if you don't like the products, dont buy them.
There are already thousands of societal beneficial uses of lorawan.
There are already thousands of societal beneficial uses of lorawan.
Like what?
No one wanted tvs to spy on them via the internet connections, they just wanted connected tvs with built in streaming devices. Today for any privacy you have to buy your own streaming device and not connect your tv itself to the internet. In the very near future, most devices will come with a low power radio that can't be turned off (just like you basically can't turn off the ubiquitous spying from your streaming connected tv). This network aids that.
No one wanted tvs to spy on them via the internet connections, they just wanted connected tvs with built in streaming devices. Today for any privacy you have to buy your own streaming device and not connect your tv itself to the internet. In the very near future, most devices will come with a low power radio that can't be turned off (just like you basically can't turn off the ubiquitous spying from your streaming connected tv). This network aids that.
> Helium literally never did an ICO.
They clearly have some sort of central issuance because they have an airdrop. Their “proof” mechanism is either centralized or Sybil vulnerable - haven’t bothered checking which.
> So funny watching bitter losers at hackernews get everything about blockchain wrong and stay poor over the past 10 years.
This is a hilariously off-the-mark shot. I have nothing against blockchain when used where it’s actually useful (I.e. for solving double-spend or zooko). This, however, seems like a silly misapplication.
> Throw in some buzzwords you don't really understand like "lightning"
I think you did not understand what I said, which is that payment for network services should use normal payment mechanisms instead of special ones.
They clearly have some sort of central issuance because they have an airdrop. Their “proof” mechanism is either centralized or Sybil vulnerable - haven’t bothered checking which.
> So funny watching bitter losers at hackernews get everything about blockchain wrong and stay poor over the past 10 years.
This is a hilariously off-the-mark shot. I have nothing against blockchain when used where it’s actually useful (I.e. for solving double-spend or zooko). This, however, seems like a silly misapplication.
> Throw in some buzzwords you don't really understand like "lightning"
I think you did not understand what I said, which is that payment for network services should use normal payment mechanisms instead of special ones.
Helium fan here.
I think a deeper dive is warranted on what and how they are "paying" people. Helium tokens are used as an incentive to bootstrap a network, but in the future part of payment for network services like you mentioned. I think this is one of the purest uses of crypto... less as currency replacement but more sharing in a network's future.
I think a deeper dive is warranted on what and how they are "paying" people. Helium tokens are used as an incentive to bootstrap a network, but in the future part of payment for network services like you mentioned. I think this is one of the purest uses of crypto... less as currency replacement but more sharing in a network's future.
The helium company charges miner manufacturing partners $40 a unit in order to generate the required private keys for their miners to be able to join the network.
As soon as I found out I couldn't stand up my own DIY helium miner and start providing coverage and making money I became entirely disinterested.
As soon as I found out I couldn't stand up my own DIY helium miner and start providing coverage and making money I became entirely disinterested.
With DIY they couldn't insure the security of participants. The temptation is too hight to create 100s of cloud miners.
That said, there are 50 HW manufacturers queued up to supply. Incorporating Helium into an existing Lora framework is very easy.
In fact, Helium is seeing an interesting phenomena where the PoC mining tech is becoming bundled with existing HW platforms because the material costs are so cheap. Projects are now bootstrapping on top of Helium.
That said, there are 50 HW manufacturers queued up to supply. Incorporating Helium into an existing Lora framework is very easy.
In fact, Helium is seeing an interesting phenomena where the PoC mining tech is becoming bundled with existing HW platforms because the material costs are so cheap. Projects are now bootstrapping on top of Helium.
Then it sure sounds like what they have is a proof of private keys algo, and not a proof of coverage algo. In which case why bother with a blockchain at all if there's a singular central entity that is the arbiter of all trust?
At first glance it might seem like that but the hotspots are measuring signal from eachother and are rewarded accordingly. The Proof of Coverage comes from actual measurements of RSSI against distance and power variations.
This is one of more interesting parts of the Helium network. It's wholly not forkable. Helium hotspot owners get their firmware updated automatically... which again seems like a big negative (single company controlled hardware) but it's imperative for this stage of network bootstrapping. I want Helium to tightly control quality now to get to a level of resources where trust itself can be disaggregated amongst DIY hotspots and firmware developers.
This is one of more interesting parts of the Helium network. It's wholly not forkable. Helium hotspot owners get their firmware updated automatically... which again seems like a big negative (single company controlled hardware) but it's imperative for this stage of network bootstrapping. I want Helium to tightly control quality now to get to a level of resources where trust itself can be disaggregated amongst DIY hotspots and firmware developers.
this is probably the only valid criticism in this thread so far. But your statement is not entirely correct:
- An organization different from Helium Inc. disperses keys to hardware manufacturers.
- Said independent org also performs an audit and approval process.
- Improvements to the network are crowdsourced and voted by rough consensus.
- Anybody can make suggestions or implementations similar to ethereum improvement proposals.
- Once deployed, there is no way to remove the node from the network.
- Nobody has banning or revocation abilities.
- An organization different from Helium Inc. disperses keys to hardware manufacturers.
- Said independent org also performs an audit and approval process.
- Improvements to the network are crowdsourced and voted by rough consensus.
- Anybody can make suggestions or implementations similar to ethereum improvement proposals.
- Once deployed, there is no way to remove the node from the network.
- Nobody has banning or revocation abilities.
> With DIY they couldn't insure the security of participants. The temptation is too hight to create 100s of cloud miners.
Indeed, that’s why helium is DINO (decentralized in name only).
Indeed, that’s why helium is DINO (decentralized in name only).
I think the issue is with the $40 fee. Why not $1, or $5?
Onboarding fees maintain a buy-side for the network token until true network utilization catches up. The original article is an example of network utilization literally catching up.
How did they arrive at $40 I'm not too sure. It seems like a moderate amount?
How did they arrive at $40 I'm not too sure. It seems like a moderate amount?
the $40 is burned on-chain, it never comes to the company. it’s just a cheap form of spam control
spam control and token demand. crypto places a huge value on large public burns.
> Silly misapplication
200k operators climbing their roof to deploy beneficial coverage beg to differ
200k operators climbing their roof to deploy beneficial coverage beg to differ
They don't need to do a traditional ICO to grift.
In order to join the network and start mining, you've got to buy $80 worth of gear from some company marked up to $600. That company then has to pay $40 to the Helium company in order for them to generate private keys that let your miner join the network and start making money.
Helium is just https://network.fon.com/ on a different frequency + a bunch of unneeded crypto bullshit that hides the grift.
Call me when I can stand up my helium miner based on open source hardware and software and make money using that.
In order to join the network and start mining, you've got to buy $80 worth of gear from some company marked up to $600. That company then has to pay $40 to the Helium company in order for them to generate private keys that let your miner join the network and start making money.
Helium is just https://network.fon.com/ on a different frequency + a bunch of unneeded crypto bullshit that hides the grift.
Call me when I can stand up my helium miner based on open source hardware and software and make money using that.
If your goal is to build a global network with unheard of capital efficiency in 1/10th the time as incumbents, then the crypto bullshit is means to an end.
Helium will go down as one of quote unquote "actual uses for blockchain".
The proof is here. Lorawan coverage is now a solved problem.
Helium will go down as one of quote unquote "actual uses for blockchain".
The proof is here. Lorawan coverage is now a solved problem.
They have already built the worlds largest contiguous Lorawan network (a spectrum and application woefully underserved in the united states), and the network grows at 40-50% monthly. Token distribution is inherently tied to providing provably useful coverage, and "miners" use as much electricity as an LED lightbulb.
This is probably the most socially useful, productive means of mining crypto conceived so far.
This is probably the most socially useful, productive means of mining crypto conceived so far.
I've got a Mark 1 Helium IoT kit in the basement somewhere. You want it?
About the onboarding fees: the $40 fee is for full nodes (which were high powered enough to participate in consensus groups until July this year when the switch to validators).
Helium is working now to launch "light hotspots" the fee for which is $10. When light hotspots launch (retail price is ~$150) all current hotspots will get a software update.
Finally, the fees act as a spam/scam filter only while the proof of coverage concept is necessary. When (if) a sufficient volume of data is moving through the network, the fees will no longer be needed.
Helium is working now to launch "light hotspots" the fee for which is $10. When light hotspots launch (retail price is ~$150) all current hotspots will get a software update.
Finally, the fees act as a spam/scam filter only while the proof of coverage concept is necessary. When (if) a sufficient volume of data is moving through the network, the fees will no longer be needed.
yeahhhhhhhhh boiiiiiiiiii !!!!!!!!! $HNT
So then, what's the resource underlying HNT? Unlicensed ISM spectrum (and perhaps antenna rent, and latent internet backhaul). Which is actually kind of a scary thought, because among all crypto fuels, this one is actually very scarce. Sure, 900MHz is relatively underutilized and so spamming LoRa basestations every 100m isn't the end of the world; but imagine a logical extension of Helium into 2.4, 5GHz spectrum, where suddenly your home wifi is fighting for signal with 100s of venture-backed mining rigs on every street corner.
Not saying good can't come from it, I do appreciate crypto concepts that actually try to accomplish something productive as a byproduct, and after all ample coverage of a cheap data network is a good thing, but the spectrum is fundamentally a shared resource, and needs to be approached carefully.