Behold GoldenEye 007 with four screens – dream come true or travesty?(theverge.com)
theverge.com
Behold GoldenEye 007 with four screens – dream come true or travesty?
https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/5/23058787/goldeneye-007-nintendo-64-no-screen-cheating-museum-computing-history
147 comments
That's incredible. Somebody actually found a genuinely enjoyable use of a monopoly board.
I like Monopoly, but this made me laugh.
Thanks. My problem with Monopoly is that I always feel like about 10 or 15 minutes into the game it is clear who the winner will be, and then the next two hours are a slow grind in which everybody else slowly becomes dust.
My friends and I invented the 'Joint Venture' ruleset precisely because of this reason. Under these rules, you don't need to own a monopoly to start building on it. Instead you can form an agreement with the other owners, a JV so to say, and then you can pool money and start building. Income from the properties can be split up between the JV partners in any manner of their choosing.
But since the rules of the game only allow you to build if you have a monopoly, when a JV is formed, all owners should nominate one person and transfer their properties (within that monopoly) to that person, who then becomes the owner of the monopoly and can do with it as he wishes.
This leads to a lot of fun situations when there is conflict between the JV parties about the usage, or if the owner requires money for financing something else, and decides to 'backstab' the JV partners. Keeps the game entertaining for hours!
But since the rules of the game only allow you to build if you have a monopoly, when a JV is formed, all owners should nominate one person and transfer their properties (within that monopoly) to that person, who then becomes the owner of the monopoly and can do with it as he wishes.
This leads to a lot of fun situations when there is conflict between the JV parties about the usage, or if the owner requires money for financing something else, and decides to 'backstab' the JV partners. Keeps the game entertaining for hours!
I've been playing a LOT of monopoly online recently and I agree with you - whoever gets the first monopoly on the second or third side of the board is going to win 90% of the time. And if you're playing with an inexperienced person who doesn't realize the value of never, ever giving another player a monopoly, then whoever bamboozles them first is likely to win.
I would usually forfeit and leave whenever I wasn't first, and generally speaking so did anyone else.
I would usually forfeit and leave whenever I wasn't first, and generally speaking so did anyone else.
you can arrange two monopoly boards (better still if two different monopolies) in an 8 shape. This prolongs the game and makes it more interesting.
hmmm I feel the opposite. The absurd amounts of money a person can lose by just landing on two build houses of their opponent means that even someone who is winning can suddenly start to lose within a few turns.
That is the point of this game : "It was intended as an educational tool to illustrate the negative aspects of concentrating land in private monopolies."
Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_(game)#Early_history
Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_(game)#Early_history
My god I always hated this game, now I know why.
The sibling mentions about the intentional aspect of this, but the other factor is the popular house rules around free parking and not auctioning properties, both of which contribute to there being far too much cash in the game. This is part of why it takes so long to go bankrupt.
My friends and I played a version of monopoly where every unowned property that is landed on goes up for general auction among all players. To speed up the process of auctioning all players write their bid down and then it is shown all at once. This reduces the luck of the game somewhat in regards to luck in being the first to land on a property tile, and adds a skill of being able to figure out what a property is worth in the context of the board situation. Every x-mas I try and usually fail to get my family to play it with me.
FYI, this written auction process is called a Blind Tender.
The rules of monopoly are that if you land on an unowned tile you must buy it. If you decide not to, or can’t afford to, it can be bid on. Highest bid gets it. Even if it’s less than the cost.
I’ve played monopoly for 30 years and never realised that. I and everyone I’ve ever played assumed you had a choice whether to purchase or not.
That's how you know you're playing it correctly!
As another comment posted, that is the point of the game. It doesn't always work out that way with house rules people use (knowingly or not).
As another comment posted, that is the point of the game. It doesn't always work out that way with house rules people use (knowingly or not).
You just summed up life ;P
No, not the other board game
No, not the other board game
It goes much faster if you’re the banker and embezzle judiciously.
My 9yo loves numbers. When most people play Monopoly and act as the banker, they have the board in front of them and the bank's funds to the side. When he plays, he has the bank's notes laid out in front of him and the game's board is an afterthought off to the side. Thankfully I don't think he is the cheating sort, yet.
Do you use all the rules, especially auctions?
If anything at least it is a simulation of real life, is it not?
Do whatever it takes to get the cheapest sets early and fill them with houses (NOT hotels) to use up all the housing stock.
And then play for hours towards your inevitable victory.
And then play for hours towards your inevitable victory.
in a better world, every family would not have the traditional copy of monopoly on the shelf, but would instead have a copy of chinatown
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/47/chinatown
https://www.shutupandsitdown.com/videos/review-chinatown/
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/47/chinatown
https://www.shutupandsitdown.com/videos/review-chinatown/
Yep, remember doing that once or twice in halo 1.
Ultimately, screen cheating is a feature.
Halo worked well as the pistol (starting weapon) is all you really need. So there’s no massive disadvantage on spawn.
I remember playing online 2v2 (halo on xbox, there was no online so it was actually system link, lan, run over the network. Bloody hard work from Australia) in which screen cheating is most definitely a feature.
Nothing more bonding for two brothers to duke it out 1v1, and then discover you’re leagues ahead of everyone online in 2v2.
Ultimately, screen cheating is a feature.
Halo worked well as the pistol (starting weapon) is all you really need. So there’s no massive disadvantage on spawn.
I remember playing online 2v2 (halo on xbox, there was no online so it was actually system link, lan, run over the network. Bloody hard work from Australia) in which screen cheating is most definitely a feature.
Nothing more bonding for two brothers to duke it out 1v1, and then discover you’re leagues ahead of everyone online in 2v2.
As I recall the Xbox had an Ethernet port and Halo supported up to four consoles. I think there were some limitations. Not sure if two teams of 8 were possible but I think 4x4 was. At a minimum I believe dedicated screens were possible in a four player game.
The PS2 had something similar (only two consoles) but it used Firewire because Sony is the Apple of Japan.
The PS2 had something similar (only two consoles) but it used Firewire because Sony is the Apple of Japan.
I recall being in an 8 v 8 LAN game, team living room had 2 TVs and team dining room had 2 TVs.
I didn't know 4v4v4v4 was possible,
we mostly did 8v8 CTFs.
I gave up on PS2 games because the first few I tried would say 2 or 4 or more players and too many times they meant "1 per PS2" without disclosing that ahead of time where xbox and GC reliably had splitscreen on pretty much any multiplayer game.
I gave up on PS2 games because the first few I tried would say 2 or 4 or more players and too many times they meant "1 per PS2" without disclosing that ahead of time where xbox and GC reliably had splitscreen on pretty much any multiplayer game.
I’m honestly not sure 4v4v4v4 was a thing but I have a memory of doing four way team death match. I could be making things up. That was a long time ago.
During undergrad in the US we used to use Xbox connect. It would function had a lan bridge to other people so you'd just use the regular halo UI to find a game.
So it has no real online features but they were grafed on by a bunch of tricks.
So it has no real online features but they were grafed on by a bunch of tricks.
Ah Xbox connect. Had mine and my brother's xbox on the same switch so we could play together with others.
We used to connect across the Atlantic to a host in the US, dude had a fat fibre pipe so 16 player Halo 2 with 0 lag and modded features (like spawning a warthog for each player in blood gulch for Cat vs. Mouse games.)
Fun times. Halo 3 iirc made some changes to the netstack to break it though :(
We used to connect across the Atlantic to a host in the US, dude had a fat fibre pipe so 16 player Halo 2 with 0 lag and modded features (like spawning a warthog for each player in blood gulch for Cat vs. Mouse games.)
Fun times. Halo 3 iirc made some changes to the netstack to break it though :(
rip. what was that mod called? i think people were calling it like halo 1.5 for a while. i'm reaching way back for this.
Screen cheating is a valid form of play though. You have to be good to know where someone is by quickly looking at their screen.
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Yeah that's how my group of friends came to see it. It was just another skill we could compete with. Some of us could watch the other three screens most of the time and hardly look at our own, which led to strategies of running around while staring at floors and walls to mask our position better.
The game has a lot of tricks too as I recall. Grenade launcher grenades only explode when hitting the ground, not other surfaces, so if you know what you're doing you can kill someone half way across The Complex with one. Oh, and some guns can shoot through doors, but the door must be open(ing) for it to actually register the hit, otherwise it is just rendering a tracer. Stuff like that.
Perhaps someday I will have an opportunity to save the world with my license-to-kill, postols-only, Complex skills. Only then will my misspent youth make sense.
The game has a lot of tricks too as I recall. Grenade launcher grenades only explode when hitting the ground, not other surfaces, so if you know what you're doing you can kill someone half way across The Complex with one. Oh, and some guns can shoot through doors, but the door must be open(ing) for it to actually register the hit, otherwise it is just rendering a tracer. Stuff like that.
Perhaps someday I will have an opportunity to save the world with my license-to-kill, postols-only, Complex skills. Only then will my misspent youth make sense.
Yup, it's simple, just get better at the game.
We used to position the TV such that it was split between two bunks of a bunk bed. One player below and one player above.
Perfect dark was such a great game. Heaps of innovative concepts.
Not sure screen cheating would work very well against the sniper that can shoot through walls though.
Not sure screen cheating would work very well against the sniper that can shoot through walls though.
I remember having a good hiding spot near the ammo for the FarSight and just taking out my friends on repeat for like 20 solid minutes before they managed to get to me and kill me. Totally OP in wrong hands and amazingly fun.
One of my honest bigger complaints about newer first person shooters is that they round all that corners off the map. There's no good sniper nests.
In Halo Infinite anywhere you could reasonably snipe from is out of bounds. They give you a grappling hook, but don't let you go anywhere interesting with it in the multiplayer.
One of my honest bigger complaints about newer first person shooters is that they round all that corners off the map. There's no good sniper nests.
In Halo Infinite anywhere you could reasonably snipe from is out of bounds. They give you a grappling hook, but don't let you go anywhere interesting with it in the multiplayer.
the second mode on all weapons made perfect dark absurdly unique. the laptop gun was super fun and innovative.
I was going to mention Perfect Dark. Probably my favourite game to this day. So many good wasted childhood hours playing this game.
I loved Perfect Dark but never completed the game as my system would always freeze due to the number of explosions during the last level’s boss battle. Even with the expansion memory pack thing.
I was an unashamed screen-looker in the Goldeneye days, and got no end to the raft of shit I got from my friends over it.
As luck would have it, those skills were a great advantage when playing games like Halo LAN parties where I was sharing the screen with my allies rather than enemies. A quick glance and I could gauge their location, situation, and how best to help them out.
As luck would have it, those skills were a great advantage when playing games like Halo LAN parties where I was sharing the screen with my allies rather than enemies. A quick glance and I could gauge their location, situation, and how best to help them out.
We used cardboard boxes in a panels formed to a cross and extended. I don't know how we spent days playing it but we did!
We had some people who relied on screen cheating so much they refused to play with it.
It was weird how split the community was on screem cheating or not back then.
We had some people who relied on screen cheating so much they refused to play with it.
It was weird how split the community was on screem cheating or not back then.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/05/how-to-play-multiplay...
ArsTechnica’s article includes more detail in how exactly they got this to work - it’s pretty great/disgusting.
ArsTechnica’s article includes more detail in how exactly they got this to work - it’s pretty great/disgusting.
It's not very difficult. Just buy a video scalar and slice the screen into quarters. I have a pile of these devices at work. The delay is one frame (or one field in interlaced modes). They are really straightforward devices generally built out of an FPGA or CPLD and some RAM/RAMDACs and old analog ones are cheap.
You might not even need a scaler. Most signage displays have built-in video wall mode that can extract any integer fraction tile out of the raw data, and some models even let you chain the displays so you don't need a splitter or matrix.
You'd have to do some buffering, but I guess you could "just" (this is way easier with digital tech) buffer scanlines, send the first half of it to one screen, the second have to another at half speed, and replay the line for the next scanline? What's nice is you don't have to buffer a full frame to do this, so there wouldn't be a frame of lag.
That doesn't work for a four way split. The top of the screen could have almost zero delay, but the bottom of the screen would need half a frame of delay.
But you can keep the delay to a maximum of about half a frame (and an average of just over a quarter frame across the whole display). It requires driving the two bottom displays out of sync to the two top displays by half a screen.
You could do more with a small software modification on the n64, make it interleave the top two and bottom two images as alternating scanlines. That way while it's outputting the repeats for the top two, the n64 is scanning out the next line for the bottom two.
But you can keep the delay to a maximum of about half a frame (and an average of just over a quarter frame across the whole display). It requires driving the two bottom displays out of sync to the two top displays by half a screen.
You could do more with a small software modification on the n64, make it interleave the top two and bottom two images as alternating scanlines. That way while it's outputting the repeats for the top two, the n64 is scanning out the next line for the bottom two.
> but the bottom of the screen would need half a frame of delay.
You mean the two bottom players would have a delay, right? They already have a half-screen delay.
You mean the two bottom players would have a delay, right? They already have a half-screen delay.
No, the bottom of all four output displays would have an extra ~8ms of delay on top of any native delay. It's unavoidable (unless you can use seriously non-standard timings) as each players output display takes ~16ms to scan from top to bottom, while the n64 takes ~8ms to scan from the top to bottom of each player's view.
You can avoid (additional) unequal treatment by adjusting the timings of the bottom two players so their TVs start scanning out the top line right after the n64 scans out it's middle line.
You can avoid (additional) unequal treatment by adjusting the timings of the bottom two players so their TVs start scanning out the top line right after the n64 scans out it's middle line.
I wish they'd change the link to this as it contains more technical details.
Edit: nevermind, shame that you can't flag your own comments for moderator attention. I know I can email but I feel like it's not important enough to warrant one.
Edit: nevermind, shame that you can't flag your own comments for moderator attention. I know I can email but I feel like it's not important enough to warrant one.
It’s too late now, but for future reference, if you can still edit your comment, and no one has replied, you can delete them
Pro tip: A+B will detonate a remote-mine (no need to switch to the watch).
Time to rent a time machine and go back 25 years
Child me is gonna be king of the playground
Child me is gonna be king of the playground
playing goldeneye with 4 players is such an amazing memory from my childhood. the screen cheating screams were constant -- to the point where we (as in, my group of friends) decided that screen peaking was worth an arm punch (without retaliation). and the group would judge if the offender was screen peaking or not!
oh and only the "noobs" (as in, the younger of our group) could pick oddjob, because it was almost cheating.
oh and only the "noobs" (as in, the younger of our group) could pick oddjob, because it was almost cheating.
Screen watching was so integral we were cool with it, not uncommon for all of us to only strafe move while facing walls (especially in Stack) to make it harder to know where we were.
The real controversy was over spawn rushing. Once you figured out exactly where and how close you could be to the next spawn dying just once put you at a large disadvantage. Ultimately that’s why we stopped playing, it would commonly end up like 10-3-0-0 and that was lousy for the 0’s.
The real controversy was over spawn rushing. Once you figured out exactly where and how close you could be to the next spawn dying just once put you at a large disadvantage. Ultimately that’s why we stopped playing, it would commonly end up like 10-3-0-0 and that was lousy for the 0’s.
Some of my favorite GoldenEye multiplayer glitches/tips off the top of my head, which were all fair game at my house:
- Pressing A + B activated a remote mine without switching to the watch
- If you put remote/proximity mines on ammo boxes, then picked up the ammo, the mine’s sprite would disappear when the ammo box respawned, but the mine would still actually be there
- Placing remote/proximity mines in the spawn locations
- If you already had full body armor and couldn’t pick up another, the best move was to blow it up so no one else could grab it for awhile
- The Magnum could shoot through various surfaces that other guns couldn’t (like the grates in front of the hiding spots in the Complex)
- Some of the guns could “shoot through” opening doors before they were actually open in the Temple
(Edit: line breaks)
- Pressing A + B activated a remote mine without switching to the watch
- If you put remote/proximity mines on ammo boxes, then picked up the ammo, the mine’s sprite would disappear when the ammo box respawned, but the mine would still actually be there
- Placing remote/proximity mines in the spawn locations
- If you already had full body armor and couldn’t pick up another, the best move was to blow it up so no one else could grab it for awhile
- The Magnum could shoot through various surfaces that other guns couldn’t (like the grates in front of the hiding spots in the Complex)
- Some of the guns could “shoot through” opening doors before they were actually open in the Temple
(Edit: line breaks)
Didn’t even know screen cheating was a thing. That is just how the game was played. No player is at a disadvantage.
There's even a game named after the term where everyone is invisible so you have to look at the other player's screens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screencheat
It's cheating in the same way looking at the community cards is in hold 'em; it's part of the game.
I highly recommend the visit of this computing museum in Cambridge. It's an awesome place. You can use and play with almost any machine that they have and they do a great work of restoration!
Screen cheating was allowed in my friend group but we might call someone out… no big deal.
When LAN parties became a thing it was really the first time I had played a game and not even had the option. Both are fun.
I'm fairly confident Nintendo posted some meta thoughts on Goldeneye at one point, where they stated that "screen cheating" is fair game.
I think a lot of game development companies have lost sight of the charm of basically zero-hardware config multiplayer. By that I mean, one computer (or console), one screen, multiple controllers, and no user names/sign ins. GoldenEye was great for that, you could just jump in. Having multiple monitors just seems like overhead. Some of the fun was the fact that you could target a player and be a total jerk, and you quickly find out who the "honorable" players are. To me, it's part of the game. Honestly, I wish there were more modern games like this. I'd gladly sacrifice shiny graphics and 4k to have a local couch coop game with some friends.
Am I the only person that played goldeneye in southpaw? I don't know why I did it but must have been due to the extra control with the aim you got. Always thought the n64 layout was bad for fps so ended up trained to use it the other way around.
When I played an n64 decades later I could not use southpaw anymore because years of playstation had got me accustomed to the regular layout.
When I played an n64 decades later I could not use southpaw anymore because years of playstation had got me accustomed to the regular layout.
Although not a great experience, you can also play it using 2 controllers to get 2 analogue sticks[1]
[1]https://goldeneye.fandom.com/wiki/Control_style#Dual_Control...
[1]https://goldeneye.fandom.com/wiki/Control_style#Dual_Control...
Awesome!
I wanted to do that forever. Never had the hardware, but being around media people meant I knew it was possible.
Dream come true, in my view!
All that killer analog gear being tossed and this happens.
Now I just want to play, maybe perfect dark too.
To avoid screen cheating, I liked to drop the proximity mines in PD and keep moving. Effective enough they were banned from family play, lol.
I wanted to do that forever. Never had the hardware, but being around media people meant I knew it was possible.
Dream come true, in my view!
All that killer analog gear being tossed and this happens.
Now I just want to play, maybe perfect dark too.
To avoid screen cheating, I liked to drop the proximity mines in PD and keep moving. Effective enough they were banned from family play, lol.
Except, it's not just analog gear anymore. Once that analog SD signal reaches the box, it is digitized and manipulated before being spit out one of the D->A converters.
Actually, what I should have said was analog era gear.
The screen splitters are almost certainly digital at the level you describe.
Some analog gear capable of this sort of thing did exist though.
The screen splitters are almost certainly digital at the level you describe.
Some analog gear capable of this sort of thing did exist though.
The thing I found funny was the use of professional CRT monitors as opposed to common TVs. Makes sense as the splitter equipment will just be spitting out standard video signal. I never had an N64, but the NES and Atari 2600s had to have an RF modulated signal and impedance matcher to connect to an antenna port. If they did that kind of connection with this setup, then I'd really be impressed at their collection of memorabilia. Wondering when the consoles started coming out with the discrete RCA style video/audio connectors? Not enough to look it up though ;-)
I have a pro grade CRT and a few others, including an amber relic from the early days.
The N64 could output a composite signal, which looks great on the high end CRT. A NES can output composite, Genesis, SNES, all could. Pro CRT displays have great circuits and fine pitch tubes. SD content looks amazing.
The consumer grade sets had composite and better inputs growing more common in the late 80's, early 90's. They look good.
It was fun to get pro gear and look at what we all could have been watching! I had a consumer set that I tuned to peak capability and the tube being normal pitch was it's only real limitation. Really, it means 80 column text was hard. Gaming looked very good.
The NES had its modulator external to the unit. It did RF right at the TV for best performance. One could get composite right out of the system and that is what my kids gamed on.
Using high end gear with retro computing and gaming is a great experience! Recommended.
The N64 could output a composite signal, which looks great on the high end CRT. A NES can output composite, Genesis, SNES, all could. Pro CRT displays have great circuits and fine pitch tubes. SD content looks amazing.
The consumer grade sets had composite and better inputs growing more common in the late 80's, early 90's. They look good.
It was fun to get pro gear and look at what we all could have been watching! I had a consumer set that I tuned to peak capability and the tube being normal pitch was it's only real limitation. Really, it means 80 column text was hard. Gaming looked very good.
The NES had its modulator external to the unit. It did RF right at the TV for best performance. One could get composite right out of the system and that is what my kids gamed on.
Using high end gear with retro computing and gaming is a great experience! Recommended.
PVMs (pro CRT monitors) are fairly common in the retro gaming space. I suspect it’s a combination of higher image quality plus higher build quality meaning more are likely to still be functioning (as opposed to, say, N64-era consumer TVs).
As for output options:
The NES had composite video out, in addition to the RF out (which you most likely needed in that era, unless you had a fancy TV).
The SNES kept the RF out, but added a proprietary AV multi out connector. This exposes composite video (and stereo audio) at a minimum, and older models did S-VIDEO and RGB component as well (cut in later-production models to cut costs).
The N64 used the same multi-out connector, but RGB’s always unconnected on the N64 and S-VIDEO only works on NTSC models. And RF’s gone on the N64, so you needed a separate RF modulator if all your TV had was an antenna input.
As for output options:
The NES had composite video out, in addition to the RF out (which you most likely needed in that era, unless you had a fancy TV).
The SNES kept the RF out, but added a proprietary AV multi out connector. This exposes composite video (and stereo audio) at a minimum, and older models did S-VIDEO and RGB component as well (cut in later-production models to cut costs).
The N64 used the same multi-out connector, but RGB’s always unconnected on the N64 and S-VIDEO only works on NTSC models. And RF’s gone on the N64, so you needed a separate RF modulator if all your TV had was an antenna input.
> I suspect it’s a combination of higher image quality plus higher build quality meaning more are likely to still be functioning (as opposed to, say, N64-era consumer TVs).
I bet it has a lot more to do with them being avaible for cheap now because NOBODY cares except retro nerds. Back when they were actively being used, they were only in the realms of professional use as they were so damn expensive. Sony's professional monitors have average in the price range of $1000 per inch. Of course these are going to look good for retro gaming, they have way more resolution than the normal consumers had access.
I bet it has a lot more to do with them being avaible for cheap now because NOBODY cares except retro nerds. Back when they were actively being used, they were only in the realms of professional use as they were so damn expensive. Sony's professional monitors have average in the price range of $1000 per inch. Of course these are going to look good for retro gaming, they have way more resolution than the normal consumers had access.
Almost nobody. While I agree with your general sentiment, CRT displays are still being used in some professional settings. High end movie production will maintain some for color grading, for example.
As for "retro nerds", we are seeing a generation, who were last to use the CRT as kids, seek them now. They care, at least for a while. They want to pass their roots along to the next generation.
My own kids have asked about it, and I am gaming with my granddaughter on both a high end CRT and a very low hour consumer set that is just sweet for retro gaming. She is 6 and notices.
I also scored an awesome Disney VHS collection, that is basically the catalog plus a few notables, like Rugrats. Bright orange VHS tape, BTW. The reports are in!
She hates rewind. She likes all the noises and that the machine will take a tape and give it back to her when done playing. She did ask whether one says thank you.
Cute as all get out. I said her call, and she does thank it. "Thank you movie machine."
I happen to know a ton about TV's from the tube era, up through the 00's. Consumer circuits got really good near the end. The big difference was the CRT itself. One can connect a VGA tube to a consumer set and, for the most part, get a much higher resolution image. That was my first "PVM."
I agree with you on availability. The consumer grade sets are running strong. The reality is enjoying the pro grade gear is a real treat. The people modifying US sets to take RGB are going to put high quality within reach of many more people. And there are plenty of buyers.
A well aligned consumer set from the 00's will look great for gaming. In my opinion, the pro gear can deliver a bit better and or can handle signals from around the world. That's why I have mine. PAL viewing of games and movies is interesting and does explain a few differences in preferences I have seen between the EU and US.
As for "retro nerds", we are seeing a generation, who were last to use the CRT as kids, seek them now. They care, at least for a while. They want to pass their roots along to the next generation.
My own kids have asked about it, and I am gaming with my granddaughter on both a high end CRT and a very low hour consumer set that is just sweet for retro gaming. She is 6 and notices.
I also scored an awesome Disney VHS collection, that is basically the catalog plus a few notables, like Rugrats. Bright orange VHS tape, BTW. The reports are in!
She hates rewind. She likes all the noises and that the machine will take a tape and give it back to her when done playing. She did ask whether one says thank you.
Cute as all get out. I said her call, and she does thank it. "Thank you movie machine."
I happen to know a ton about TV's from the tube era, up through the 00's. Consumer circuits got really good near the end. The big difference was the CRT itself. One can connect a VGA tube to a consumer set and, for the most part, get a much higher resolution image. That was my first "PVM."
I agree with you on availability. The consumer grade sets are running strong. The reality is enjoying the pro grade gear is a real treat. The people modifying US sets to take RGB are going to put high quality within reach of many more people. And there are plenty of buyers.
A well aligned consumer set from the 00's will look great for gaming. In my opinion, the pro gear can deliver a bit better and or can handle signals from around the world. That's why I have mine. PAL viewing of games and movies is interesting and does explain a few differences in preferences I have seen between the EU and US.
My problem was that I was always around professional gear. I got into video production while still in high school. Once I got to college, I started working at a film lab/post house. Everything was the high end gear. I saw what the image looked like straight from the film negatives in the transfer suites while being recorded to digibeta. The images at that point looked amazing for SD. You'd then see the content you worked on in the edit bays at home on consumer TVs, and it'd look like total crap.
It does look amazing!!
Consumer gear and media sources really were crappy. In my case, I was not around pro gear much, but did see it some. I was good at electronics and would get consumer grade devices, sometimes swap tubes in, and other times optimize the device for the single purpose it would serve.
In the case of computer display, that might be adjusting everything to work well for a computer, but you might not want to watch a movie on it. Even some of the older tube type sets I worked with could perform reasonably, hitting 400 lines or so. Just enough to work with 80 column text reasonably, but not with excellence. At the time though, it was pretty nice compared to the default many people worked with.
Consumer gear and media sources really were crappy. In my case, I was not around pro gear much, but did see it some. I was good at electronics and would get consumer grade devices, sometimes swap tubes in, and other times optimize the device for the single purpose it would serve.
In the case of computer display, that might be adjusting everything to work well for a computer, but you might not want to watch a movie on it. Even some of the older tube type sets I worked with could perform reasonably, hitting 400 lines or so. Just enough to work with 80 column text reasonably, but not with excellence. At the time though, it was pretty nice compared to the default many people worked with.
And they are no longer cheap!
The pro grade CRT market is crazy! When I got mine, it was essentially a giveaway. Got lucky too. Was a low hour unit that did not live on a primary production path.
That same model is selling for a few hundred bucks!
Workstation monitors are spiking now too, and in my opinion are the way to go. User gets to view a fine pitch tube and the circuits are fast, geometry consistent enough to not be a worry.
It remains possible to get in cheap, but damn! Bet that fades in about a year.
The pro grade CRT market is crazy! When I got mine, it was essentially a giveaway. Got lucky too. Was a low hour unit that did not live on a primary production path.
That same model is selling for a few hundred bucks!
Workstation monitors are spiking now too, and in my opinion are the way to go. User gets to view a fine pitch tube and the circuits are fast, geometry consistent enough to not be a worry.
It remains possible to get in cheap, but damn! Bet that fades in about a year.
The first model Famicom (Japanese NES) had RF output only, but later toploader and Twin Famicom models had RCA connectors. The first model NES and in the US had RCA connectors, and the Mark III/Master system was the first Sega console to have them (although I think the breakout cable for them was an optional accessory).
Yes, my first NES was via composite. And that was very nice compared to RF.
No screencheating here!
puts the screens in a row so you can still screen cheat
Sigh.
That means he "happens to have a number of bits of equipment for messing around with video," he said.
This is an important line. It was done this way because they had the equipment on hand, not that they think it's a good solution for anyone else. The bit about replicating their setup is just the author being dumb. You could do this with fifty bucks in capture and output equipment.
puts the screens in a row so you can still screen cheat
Sigh.
That means he "happens to have a number of bits of equipment for messing around with video," he said.
This is an important line. It was done this way because they had the equipment on hand, not that they think it's a good solution for anyone else. The bit about replicating their setup is just the author being dumb. You could do this with fifty bucks in capture and output equipment.
That's just for the video showing it off, they say when people are playing it for real they'll arrange the screens facing away from each other
Seems like a lot of the cheapest ways to do this might introduce significant latency though.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/05/how-to-play-multiplay...
They are using analog signal processing equipment, the latency is probably less than a ms.
They are using analog signal processing equipment, the latency is probably less than a ms.
This isn't the cheap way. Cheap way is converting it to digital and re-outputting it in 4 separate hdmi/vga displays.
If you watch the video referenced in the article, he says at the end they will move the monitors for actual play.
And besides, ease up. It's someone nerding out with AV equipment not an attack on your ideals as a technologist.
And besides, ease up. It's someone nerding out with AV equipment not an attack on your ideals as a technologist.
Totally invented this in 1997 with a cross shaped piece of cardboard stuck to the TV screen. Radars off too for extra jumpiness.
No radar, auto-aim off, license to kill, pistols, go!
>where you can barely turn around and can’t freely aim while moving
Not true just select the 1.2 control mode and the c-buttons move and strafe and the stick will aim.
Not true just select the 1.2 control mode and the c-buttons move and strafe and the stick will aim.
They don’t have 4 players though lol. True nerd dilemma.
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I was hoping this was going to be the announcement that it’s coming to the Switch N64 emulator
Doubt that would ever happen. Probably a licensing nightmare since Microsoft owns Rare now plus whatever licensing issues they would have with the Bond franchise holders.
Wait how does a shooter on a single stick controller work again? How did we move/shoot?
Same as in any other classic FPS, the N64 has four C-buttons for directional control in addition to the stick. By default however it uses a Doom1/Duke3D-style control scheme, not a modern one, meaning the stick doing forward/backward/turn-left/turn-right, while the C-buttons are doing look-up/down and strafing. Modern games just switch the turn and strafing around.
That said, Goldeneye, along with Perfect Dark, both have numerous alternative control options, one of them is using two gamepads, so you can have two analog stick and control it just like any modern shooter. N64 controller is pretty unique in being usable with only one hand.
That said, Goldeneye, along with Perfect Dark, both have numerous alternative control options, one of them is using two gamepads, so you can have two analog stick and control it just like any modern shooter. N64 controller is pretty unique in being usable with only one hand.
In the default layout the analogue stick controlled forward and backward movement and turning left or right. The yellow c buttons could be used for strafing or adjusting the vertical "aim" (the game heavily relied on autoaim). It was also possible to use the R trigger to enter an aiming mode where the analogue acts like the left stick would in modern FPS.
There was an option to use the c-buttons like WASD and the stick to aim but judging from the way people talk about goldeneye a lot of players never discovered it.
you would hold the R trigger down to aim and it would switch from walking/move to a superimposed crosshair you could aim with the joystick. I think you could also just hold trigger and shoot without aiming. That's how I recall it worked at least
I used to play Melee doubles with 2 mirrored TVs at smashfests. It was always a huge hit.
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We do what we must because we can.
That's a neat hack
$10,000 to split a video signal into quarters? They got fleeced.
And how is this even a story? They took a video signal and split it into quarters. What am I supposed to be surprised or impressed by?
And how is this even a story? They took a video signal and split it into quarters. What am I supposed to be surprised or impressed by?
It's a museum so reusing CRTs and their low latency is probably part of the appeal.
Yeah, the Ars Technica article makes it clear that this is a temporary use of hardware they already had on hand, and the $10k is just an estimate of what it would cost to buy this vintage hardware online today.
I was sitting here thinking the same thing. You could probably achieve this with an rpi or two. The article is light on technical details unless I totally missed it..
The video from the tweet clearly shows the rack of gear doing it. It flashes them quickly and I didn't bother to try to pause the video to look. They look like boxes from BMD, but there are other manufactures that do this screen splitting for large room displays as well. It's pretty common gear in the AV world.
The point isn't how they did it, but that they did do it. Only on HN is the actual point lost.
The point isn't how they did it, but that they did do it. Only on HN is the actual point lost.
I would imagine you could do it easily with a HDMI mod and some edid dongles for a few bucks.
Show me a BOM for this, please.
There are several N64 HDMI mods. Here is one on Amazon for $20.
https://www.amazon.com/Nintendo-HDMI-Converter-Cable-Compati...
Or this one for $150: https://www.amazon.com/Super-64-Nintendo/dp/B07TKF5XBS
You could also use an upscaler like the MClassic for $100: https://www.marseilleinc.com/mclassic/
Then you need a 1x4 HDMI splitter like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Controller-Splitter-Supportt1920x10...
Or this one for $150: https://www.amazon.com/Super-64-Nintendo/dp/B07TKF5XBS
You could also use an upscaler like the MClassic for $100: https://www.marseilleinc.com/mclassic/
Then you need a 1x4 HDMI splitter like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Controller-Splitter-Supportt1920x10...
If >$400 is "a few bucks", then I'm seriously just out of touch
You are I’m afraid.
It’s small money considering that the solution used in the article was an order of magnitude more expensive.
You’ll also need the console. An N64 console is going to cost you $100 on eBay, a GoldenEye cart another $20. You’re also going to need four controllers for about $20 each. And displays…
The key bit you need to get a digital signal is just $20 but you can pay more if you want and I linked such an option. The upscaler is entirely optional. The video splitter is the most expensive part but you’re really only looking at closer to $250 in extra gear to get this working in addition to the cost of the console, so yes, a few bucks.
I’ve my old N64 sitting in a box in the attic. I could imagine setting it up for some students to play at work.
It’s small money considering that the solution used in the article was an order of magnitude more expensive.
You’ll also need the console. An N64 console is going to cost you $100 on eBay, a GoldenEye cart another $20. You’re also going to need four controllers for about $20 each. And displays…
The key bit you need to get a digital signal is just $20 but you can pay more if you want and I linked such an option. The upscaler is entirely optional. The video splitter is the most expensive part but you’re really only looking at closer to $250 in extra gear to get this working in addition to the cost of the console, so yes, a few bucks.
I’ve my old N64 sitting in a box in the attic. I could imagine setting it up for some students to play at work.
The solution to the article was because they already had the equipment on hand. So it actually was $0 expended and was just an excerise in "what if" and someone else said "hold my beer".
So, why don't you just go ahead and spend those "few bucks" and do a nice little write up on the experience whether or not it was successful or not? It's just a few bucks after all
So, why don't you just go ahead and spend those "few bucks" and do a nice little write up on the experience whether or not it was successful or not? It's just a few bucks after all
I have everything except the hdmi spiltter. Why are you being a jerk?
You're so dismissive of something with the "I could do this in a weekend" attitude. These people did something and showed others what they did. You've instead posited that you "could do better for cheaper", but other than posting a few links and a bit of bravado about the topic, nothing of substance has been offered as accomplishing the same result. If questioning your idea as functional makes me a jerk then: “He doesn’t realize he’s dealing with sophisticated people here.”
That wasn’t the point. My suggestion was simply an alternative method that might be more accessible given the availability of equipment. It would also work with any split screen game. They used the equipment they had and I suggested a method using equipment I have and would be easier to get.
You didn’t question my idea, you were snarky and dismissive. You’ve made no attempt to qualify if my suggestion would work just made a value judgment on your perceived value of some cheap electronics.
You didn’t question my idea, you were snarky and dismissive. You’ve made no attempt to qualify if my suggestion would work just made a value judgment on your perceived value of some cheap electronics.
Probably with huge latency too. Everything is simple if speed/latency is not a consideration.
Ie, you could use a webcam on a screen, and then cut it up using FFMPEG cropping, send each of them via an RTMP stream to a device... but then you have encoding + cropping + network latency.
Sucks for gaming.
Ie, you could use a webcam on a screen, and then cut it up using FFMPEG cropping, send each of them via an RTMP stream to a device... but then you have encoding + cropping + network latency.
Sucks for gaming.
There are low latency dongles you can use for old consoles to output to HDMI, see my reply to the parent.
that's the most bizarre way of thinking about it, that I'd almost think I had the idea myself. luckily, I grew up in this world, and am familiar with equipment that does this properly. phew.
you failed to mention the major hit in quality of videoing a CRT screen with a webcam. also, hope that webcam supports genlock as well as the CRT, otherwise, your h/v sync will never match.
and i thought i could come up with some zanny ideas. this one though, boy, i don't know.
you failed to mention the major hit in quality of videoing a CRT screen with a webcam. also, hope that webcam supports genlock as well as the CRT, otherwise, your h/v sync will never match.
and i thought i could come up with some zanny ideas. this one though, boy, i don't know.
We're going budget yo.
stock n64 goldeneye is unplayable garbage
https://youtu.be/ziUMJB3id8I
what a waste of time
https://youtu.be/ziUMJB3id8I
what a waste of time
Of course it doesn't hold up to modern standards 25 years later. But at the time it was released, it was considered outstanding and revolutionary. I mean c'mon, you could shoot guards in the groin and they would slowly fall to the ground clutching their junk in agony.
Indeed a large appeal was the technical marvel of have a 4 person split screen game of such magnitude. Very different from the relative simplicity of Mario kart.
Edit: it also bothers me that despite our progress on all technological fronts we still get halo as the best split screen fps experience.
Edit 2: also still love playing OG 007 with friends who come over because if you didn’t figure out how to prevent screen cheating you never learned how to actually play.
Edit: it also bothers me that despite our progress on all technological fronts we still get halo as the best split screen fps experience.
Edit 2: also still love playing OG 007 with friends who come over because if you didn’t figure out how to prevent screen cheating you never learned how to actually play.
Oh that last point! My friends and I used to just strafe along every single wall and all you could see was the wall texture until it was time to shoot. We knew all the levels so well that just the changes in lighting, or sometimes how quickly a door opened, were enough for us to tell where someone else was (avoid the coloured corridors in Complex).
Screen cheating is a skill, countering it is a skill, and countering THAT is an even bigger skill.
Screen cheating is a skill, countering it is a skill, and countering THAT is an even bigger skill.
Oh the sounds too. You knew when someone opened a door and there are only so many doors and if they opened two doors in rapid succession.. they were gonzo. The game is really a game of mastering all senses I guess lol.
you could should their hats without damaging the guards! (which was great on facility (aka second mission) -- you could shot the hat out of a guard that was using the bathroom).
The game being hard was part of the appeal. It took skill. Maybe arguably dumb skill on the wrong areas - but skill. I’m not impressed that modernizing and switching the input methods made it “better” because my respect for them as a player will still come from how well they can do hobbled in the same way as myself.
Edit: one such strategy is using odd job, the most derided of strategies because you were basically taking advantage of how difficult it was to use the Z axis. Screen cheating was generally not that big a deal because you could do it just as well as anyone else. It was more so “honor in doing so” that was a problem.
Edit: one such strategy is using odd job, the most derided of strategies because you were basically taking advantage of how difficult it was to use the Z axis. Screen cheating was generally not that big a deal because you could do it just as well as anyone else. It was more so “honor in doing so” that was a problem.
Oddjob was what we made the winner-goes-on play as in my circle of friends because his head is at headshot level. You headshot him by just firing from the hip.
Jaws, on the other hand, was taller than everyone so everyone had to aim up at your head, and you could get headshots on everyone else without moving the reticle.
Offjob's true advantage, at least for us, was that he could hide inside exploded boxes and he could counter Jaws.
Jaws, on the other hand, was taller than everyone so everyone had to aim up at your head, and you could get headshots on everyone else without moving the reticle.
Offjob's true advantage, at least for us, was that he could hide inside exploded boxes and he could counter Jaws.
I forgot about jaws height! It often depended on who had unlocked what I suppose (different friends at different stages, for proper competition we always had the cart with everything and cheats) But odd job was definitely off limits - I think he was actually slightly under headshot range. But easy enough adjustment I guess.
Forgot about the exploded boxes thing too! I haven’t played much 007 since pandemic. Still got the slime green n64 and such though.
Forgot about the exploded boxes thing too! I haven’t played much 007 since pandemic. Still got the slime green n64 and such though.
I haven't played in 15 years but I think you're right.
When Oddjob was close, you would have to quicktap C-up instead of C-down to get a headshot on him while you were strafing around. But once he was 10+ meters away, you didn't have to adjust aim at all.
Meanwhile, when Jaws was close, you'd have to even double-tap C-down to aim at his head. And even far away you'd only get body shots without adjusting aim. Which is also the disadvantage that Oddjob has trying to shoot everyone else in the game, thus we never considered him much of an advantage since he will mainly get bodyshots on other players.
Frankly this is good PhD paper territory.
When Oddjob was close, you would have to quicktap C-up instead of C-down to get a headshot on him while you were strafing around. But once he was 10+ meters away, you didn't have to adjust aim at all.
Meanwhile, when Jaws was close, you'd have to even double-tap C-down to aim at his head. And even far away you'd only get body shots without adjusting aim. Which is also the disadvantage that Oddjob has trying to shoot everyone else in the game, thus we never considered him much of an advantage since he will mainly get bodyshots on other players.
Frankly this is good PhD paper territory.
Game also taught my dislike of inverted up/down I remember that being a specific thing and I don’t remember if it was changeable but it’s annoying me now so probably not heh.
Wait you can fire from the hip in goldeneye?
Yeah, realistic guns and sights were only introduced to FPS several years later. Those were a major draw of Counter Strike.
You'll find the same in Quake, Quake 2, Doom, etc
You'll find the same in Quake, Quake 2, Doom, etc
Yes. I’d argue zooming was less likely, the AK47 that looked like a bottle of Chianti and you sprayed everywhere being a good example. It was really hard to try and use the aiming mode but key to levels (I forget exact name) where it’s a maze that people can end up on different stories. The one with all the hidden doors is what I’m referring to.
Perhaps it didn’t look like it was from the hip - but for all intents and purposes it was. Holding down the Z button and aiming with the joystick was “down the sights”. I don’t recall if accuracy differs much in either scenario but the Z button version definitely did differ in accuracy when you were panic-shooting.
I just mean shooting the gun without holding R to make the reticle appear.
IIRC Goldeneye even had horizontal-axis auto-aim which helped.
IIRC Goldeneye even had horizontal-axis auto-aim which helped.
Even if you were to take that guy's word as gospel, he even says later that the game is good, that the game's controls just aged poorly, thus if you use the mouse+keyboard patch the game is good again.
Goldeneye 64 was the best bang for our buck of any game we ever bought. We did the same thing with Perfect Dark.