Delayed Messages on iOS(caleb.software)
caleb.software
Delayed Messages on iOS
http://caleb.software/posts/ios-delayed-messages.html
151 comments
> But I've thought about this a bit recently, and I don't think I should have to worry about bothering someone at 3 AM. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect other people to have do not disturb on / notifications off whenever they don't want to be disturbed.
I'm very direct about this with new hires.
"I'm awake and work weird hours. Please don't take a message from me outside your normal hours to mean I want or need an immediate response unless the message is directly talking about a production outage in which case i'll be explicit about that. If you're around and you want to spend a few hours debating the merits of embedding a lua interpreter into a data processing pipeline vs trying to figure out how to droplessly reload golang code great, if not, we can pick it up the next time we're both around.
On the same note, please don't not message me because it's late where you think I am at the moment and please don't not let me know about something because 'it's normal US hours, he probably already knows.'
Please also don't take offense if I don't respond immediately, despite appearances, I do sometimes actually sleep."
Setting the actual expectations works great. Some people respond simply by saying that they won't put slack on their phone, or will turn notifications for slack off and I'm fine with that (having their number to call for actual emergencies).
I think the problem arises not from the direct actions here (messaging someone at 3am) but by the implicit expectation of a reply. I think some people don't realize what they're doing but I think a lot do and they want to create that implicit must-reply-24-7 nature.
I'm very direct about this with new hires.
"I'm awake and work weird hours. Please don't take a message from me outside your normal hours to mean I want or need an immediate response unless the message is directly talking about a production outage in which case i'll be explicit about that. If you're around and you want to spend a few hours debating the merits of embedding a lua interpreter into a data processing pipeline vs trying to figure out how to droplessly reload golang code great, if not, we can pick it up the next time we're both around.
On the same note, please don't not message me because it's late where you think I am at the moment and please don't not let me know about something because 'it's normal US hours, he probably already knows.'
Please also don't take offense if I don't respond immediately, despite appearances, I do sometimes actually sleep."
Setting the actual expectations works great. Some people respond simply by saying that they won't put slack on their phone, or will turn notifications for slack off and I'm fine with that (having their number to call for actual emergencies).
I think the problem arises not from the direct actions here (messaging someone at 3am) but by the implicit expectation of a reply. I think some people don't realize what they're doing but I think a lot do and they want to create that implicit must-reply-24-7 nature.
I get telling people that you are comfortable being contacted whenever. That's your choice/life.
But if I was working for you I would not like this part:
> unless the message is directly talking about a production outage in which case i'll be explicit about that
because that means I have to keep notifications on and triage them even though the whole point is "I'm not going to respond outside work hours when my notifications are off / dnd is on."
But if I was working for you I would not like this part:
> unless the message is directly talking about a production outage in which case i'll be explicit about that
because that means I have to keep notifications on and triage them even though the whole point is "I'm not going to respond outside work hours when my notifications are off / dnd is on."
This is a frequent disconnect.
It really depends on the scale of the business. In some large ones, there is always a person working to handle “must be fixed now” problems. If you are off shift, then it is the person on shift’s task.
In smaller operations with 24 hour operation, and infrequent “must be fixed now” problems, there will be workers whose job includes being on call. Sometimes the on call duty rotates, sometimes it does not.
So if you are from a land of large companies, it may seem insane for your employer to ask something of you outside your shift. Likewise, when you are a little guy scrambling to grow, getting out of bed once in a while and handling a problem to preserve that growth is your best option.
In the situation in this post, I would hope that the critical “get up and fix this” messages come through a different system, or have a way to cut through a “do not disturb” so the employees can mute the mundane messages.
It sounds like you are in the first group. My company didn’t staff 24 hours, but used to pay people extra when they were the “get up and handle this” person. The size of the pay, and the frequency of the events was tuned so there was always a willing pool of people queueing to be the pager carrier.
It really depends on the scale of the business. In some large ones, there is always a person working to handle “must be fixed now” problems. If you are off shift, then it is the person on shift’s task.
In smaller operations with 24 hour operation, and infrequent “must be fixed now” problems, there will be workers whose job includes being on call. Sometimes the on call duty rotates, sometimes it does not.
So if you are from a land of large companies, it may seem insane for your employer to ask something of you outside your shift. Likewise, when you are a little guy scrambling to grow, getting out of bed once in a while and handling a problem to preserve that growth is your best option.
In the situation in this post, I would hope that the critical “get up and fix this” messages come through a different system, or have a way to cut through a “do not disturb” so the employees can mute the mundane messages.
It sounds like you are in the first group. My company didn’t staff 24 hours, but used to pay people extra when they were the “get up and handle this” person. The size of the pay, and the frequency of the events was tuned so there was always a willing pool of people queueing to be the pager carrier.
That’s not their point. Their point is they have to get your useless notifications at 3 am and check them even when they aren’t urgent because you can’t know which is which until you read it. Stop texting people at 3 am unless it is urgent.
> In the situation in this post, I would hope that the critical “get up and fix this” messages come through a different system
If PagerDuty goes "ding" at 3am, it's probably best to take a look.
If Slack goes "ding" at 3am, maybe you forgot to turn off notifications or something, but by no means do you need to even read the notification.
If PagerDuty goes "ding" at 3am, it's probably best to take a look.
If Slack goes "ding" at 3am, maybe you forgot to turn off notifications or something, but by no means do you need to even read the notification.
> but used to pay people extra when they were the “get up and handle this” person.
When they were the person on-call, or only when they actually responded to an outage? Unless outages are really that infrequent, it pays to set clear boundaries on when and who is supposed to be available for an outage, and the cost of a dedicated solution like Pagerduty (or Grafana OnCall) is negligible.
When they were the person on-call, or only when they actually responded to an outage? Unless outages are really that infrequent, it pays to set clear boundaries on when and who is supposed to be available for an outage, and the cost of a dedicated solution like Pagerduty (or Grafana OnCall) is negligible.
They were salaried engineers paid to carry, not for the calls. The people carrying were capable of initiating remedial action and of knowing which engineer to call if it really needed midnight engineering. We outsourced the simple triage by having pagers and the customer’s level 1 and level 2 teams had instructions for which pager to call.
It’s normal and expected to get paid to be on call even if you don’t have to get up. You have to schedule your life around the fact you might be interrupted. That’s worth money.
As said in the reply from 10 hours ago, these were alaried engineers "paid to carry", so you're right, but it's not hard to imagine a company having an on-call rotation for such pager without any extra pay.
> it's not hard to imagine a company having an on-call rotation for such pager without any extra pay.
I imagine it’s possible but that seems like a terrible idea. Making the compensation for being on-call obvious seems better for everyone involved. At least the one who might have to get up on Christmas know exactly what they are getting out of it and that no one is taking advantage of them in the rotation.
I imagine it’s possible but that seems like a terrible idea. Making the compensation for being on-call obvious seems better for everyone involved. At least the one who might have to get up on Christmas know exactly what they are getting out of it and that no one is taking advantage of them in the rotation.
> I have to keep notifications on and triage them
Nope. Read the whole comment, i address that :)
Some people said "fine, then I'm turning off notifications" and I'm fine with that, if I have an alternate method of contact for the (very rare) production outages.
Nope. Read the whole comment, i address that :)
Some people said "fine, then I'm turning off notifications" and I'm fine with that, if I have an alternate method of contact for the (very rare) production outages.
I hate to say email, but I feel like the venue for not time sensitive messages is.. email.
I had this dynamic at my last gig with very pushy users, spamming of @here/@channel, and a boss working weird hours. I found no solution other than disabling all notifications for slack.
Still, when I would wake up & quickly scan through slack to make sure there were no open fires to login & help with, I would invariably have to dig through commingled fires & "just sending this now cuz I'm online" threads.
My next solution became that I just stopped even checking slack at all in the morning until I was either in-office, or ready to login while remote. Otherwise I found myself stewing about some annoying but non-urgent messages that I had exposed myself to.
Most people would prefer to get 1 properly thought out email than to wake up to a series of 5-10 slack messages or slack wall of text.
If I want to go back to an email, I can leave the individual message unread. A slack message I end up with a red dot next to my bosses name for an unread message (and obscures any more messages that have come since) OR use the "remind me" feature to them get a red dot popping up next to my bosses name in an hour to make me jump thinking my boss has some new urgent thing to ask me.
We've invented a pretty good async non-urgent message medium, and yet forgotten how to use it. I think all of these super clever DM strategies are self defeating.
I had this dynamic at my last gig with very pushy users, spamming of @here/@channel, and a boss working weird hours. I found no solution other than disabling all notifications for slack.
Still, when I would wake up & quickly scan through slack to make sure there were no open fires to login & help with, I would invariably have to dig through commingled fires & "just sending this now cuz I'm online" threads.
My next solution became that I just stopped even checking slack at all in the morning until I was either in-office, or ready to login while remote. Otherwise I found myself stewing about some annoying but non-urgent messages that I had exposed myself to.
Most people would prefer to get 1 properly thought out email than to wake up to a series of 5-10 slack messages or slack wall of text.
If I want to go back to an email, I can leave the individual message unread. A slack message I end up with a red dot next to my bosses name for an unread message (and obscures any more messages that have come since) OR use the "remind me" feature to them get a red dot popping up next to my bosses name in an hour to make me jump thinking my boss has some new urgent thing to ask me.
We've invented a pretty good async non-urgent message medium, and yet forgotten how to use it. I think all of these super clever DM strategies are self defeating.
I don't like email.
Keep in mind my workflow is much more likely to result in you ending up in a new task focused group or with a new message in a group vs a 1:1 DM.
Keep in mind my workflow is much more likely to result in you ending up in a new task focused group or with a new message in a group vs a 1:1 DM.
This pretty much demonstrates the problem most people have with your approach: it isn't about you - it's about the wellbeing of the people you work with.
Also, 'just turn off notifications' isn't a solution. Having to ignore messages from your superior puts people in a very uncomfortable position.
Granted I know very little about you other than the tiny bits of information gathered in this post, so take it with a grain of salt, but I've worked with people exhibiting similar attitudes and it is extremely toxic.
Also, 'just turn off notifications' isn't a solution. Having to ignore messages from your superior puts people in a very uncomfortable position.
Granted I know very little about you other than the tiny bits of information gathered in this post, so take it with a grain of salt, but I've worked with people exhibiting similar attitudes and it is extremely toxic.
Yup.
"just ignore your boss" is usually considered a CLM (Career Limiting Move)
"just ignore your boss" is usually considered a CLM (Career Limiting Move)
OK one more! Beyond out of hours..
A huge huge problem with slack versus email is out-of-office behaviors. In outlook, I set myself OOO in calendar, create a scheduled OOO response with active dates and audience types to respond / not respond to (internal/external). It's like 3 clicks, and defaults to the same message I always use, and I have to set myself OOO in calendar already anyway so people don't book meetings / my boss knows I am out.
In Slack, I mark myself away, set my status to OOO, put a stupid little palm try icon up, disable notifications and...
AND I still get people blasting me with DMs as if I am working. I come back to a mess of unreads I need a couple hours to unwind as I scroll up channels/DMs/etc. Users can even force notifications through against my will (except that I disabled them at OS level :-) ).
Slack needs an OOO response tool, and even the ability to block senders to go a step further.
A huge huge problem with slack versus email is out-of-office behaviors. In outlook, I set myself OOO in calendar, create a scheduled OOO response with active dates and audience types to respond / not respond to (internal/external). It's like 3 clicks, and defaults to the same message I always use, and I have to set myself OOO in calendar already anyway so people don't book meetings / my boss knows I am out.
In Slack, I mark myself away, set my status to OOO, put a stupid little palm try icon up, disable notifications and...
AND I still get people blasting me with DMs as if I am working. I come back to a mess of unreads I need a couple hours to unwind as I scroll up channels/DMs/etc. Users can even force notifications through against my will (except that I disabled them at OS level :-) ).
Slack needs an OOO response tool, and even the ability to block senders to go a step further.
Yes, and being on the receiving end of that behavior, I hate it.
And in slack it is very hard to manage other than turning off all notifications and just shrugging your shoulders.
I can't mark individual messages for followup easily, so I have to leave entire DMs/groups/channels unread.. missing subsequent messages.
I end up in 50 different channels, 30 different DM groups and 20 1:1 DMs over the course of a week. Some conversations span 5 different channels/DMs as people are added/removed.. Outlook would just have one nice threaded email on the subject. Slack I end up with 5 little red dots on my channel browser pane.. it's a mess.
I've now had to institute a policy for myself on escalations that is - if it doesn't come through PagerDuty, it's not an incident or urgent. This in theory, by official policy is correct. In practice, this is like a union slowing down the trains..
I end up in 50 different channels, 30 different DM groups and 20 1:1 DMs over the course of a week. Some conversations span 5 different channels/DMs as people are added/removed.. Outlook would just have one nice threaded email on the subject. Slack I end up with 5 little red dots on my channel browser pane.. it's a mess.
I've now had to institute a policy for myself on escalations that is - if it doesn't come through PagerDuty, it's not an incident or urgent. This in theory, by official policy is correct. In practice, this is like a union slowing down the trains..
Understood. The expectations of your job/team (emergencies etc) are probably just different from what I'm used to. Seems like a good system for your team so I'm glad it works for you.
It was not easily understood or developed.
My approach to many of these things is a direct result of me doing it very badly at some point and having to deal with the consequences of it.
My approach to many of these things is a direct result of me doing it very badly at some point and having to deal with the consequences of it.
Yeah, I have both Slack and Email notifications off out of hours, but people who might need me have my phone number on the trust that they only use it in emergencies. And automated production outage notifications get sent via SMS in addition to other channels (we have very few outages so this ends up being low noise)
I also work weird hours at times, but hold my messages.
> Please don't take a message from me outside your normal hours to mean I want or need an immediate response unless the message is directly talking about a production outage in which case i'll be explicit about that.
This still means they need to wake up everytime a message is received. There are likely other mechanisms for waking them during an outage, but the pressure it still there that it could be related to an outage that did not page them specially.
Similarly, getting a message while you are at a BBQ, family event, or bar will make you start thinking about the problem right away. Potentially removing their mind from the moment they are currently in.
> If you're around and you want to spend a few hours debating the merits of embedding a lua interpreter into a data processing pipeline vs trying to figure out how to droplessly reload golang code great, if not, we can pick it up the next time we're both around.
You may be saying this honestly, but many people, especially junior new hires will feel pressure none the less. They really to make good impressions and impress people.
> Please don't take a message from me outside your normal hours to mean I want or need an immediate response unless the message is directly talking about a production outage in which case i'll be explicit about that.
This still means they need to wake up everytime a message is received. There are likely other mechanisms for waking them during an outage, but the pressure it still there that it could be related to an outage that did not page them specially.
Similarly, getting a message while you are at a BBQ, family event, or bar will make you start thinking about the problem right away. Potentially removing their mind from the moment they are currently in.
> If you're around and you want to spend a few hours debating the merits of embedding a lua interpreter into a data processing pipeline vs trying to figure out how to droplessly reload golang code great, if not, we can pick it up the next time we're both around.
You may be saying this honestly, but many people, especially junior new hires will feel pressure none the less. They really to make good impressions and impress people.
This was pretty clearly (I thought) covered later in the same comment:
> Setting the actual expectations works great. Some people respond simply by saying that they won't put slack on their phone, or will turn notifications for slack off and I'm fine with that (having their number to call for actual emergencies).
> Setting the actual expectations works great. Some people respond simply by saying that they won't put slack on their phone, or will turn notifications for slack off and I'm fine with that (having their number to call for actual emergencies).
> This still means they need to wake up everytime a message is received.
Agreed if urgent messages are going through the same channel as non-urgent. Otherwise, message sent doesn’t necessarily imply message received, and I reckon it makes more sense to encourage people to turn off work notifications out of hours.
Agreed if urgent messages are going through the same channel as non-urgent. Otherwise, message sent doesn’t necessarily imply message received, and I reckon it makes more sense to encourage people to turn off work notifications out of hours.
I think this creates a very undesirable culture where working outside of hours becomes normalised / expected / pressured. You can say it all you want that people don't have to read it or reply but some will still perceive that they need to read or respond to the messages even if it is just so they are "in the know" or not left out of discussions that might occur out of hours.
I delay all messages I send (even emails) so they appear in business hours. Slack and Outlook both support this and I suspect other tools too. The only real downside is that sometimes things evolve and then you have an incorrect or out of context / misleading message popping up ("It seems like the production database is down" popping up 8 hours after it was resolved etc).
I delay all messages I send (even emails) so they appear in business hours. Slack and Outlook both support this and I suspect other tools too. The only real downside is that sometimes things evolve and then you have an incorrect or out of context / misleading message popping up ("It seems like the production database is down" popping up 8 hours after it was resolved etc).
This is why I like slack. I work with people across the globe, so they want to message me without fear that I'll be notified at 2am. Slack won't send you a notification after hours, unless the person presses "Notify anyway?". I've never had that happen in the last 3 years or so of using Slack where I am.
Then you work with nice people.
The problem with slack is it only takes 1 bad user in the organization and it becomes hell.
My org has both app devs & app users within slack. Users can spam channels and DM devs when they figure out who the useful idiots are. The "notify anyway" button gets used, frequently.
The idea that they expose this button to the sender is toxic.
The problem with slack is it only takes 1 bad user in the organization and it becomes hell.
My org has both app devs & app users within slack. Users can spam channels and DM devs when they figure out who the useful idiots are. The "notify anyway" button gets used, frequently.
The idea that they expose this button to the sender is toxic.
That's a people problem though, not a technology one.
Surely you can resolve this by talking to the person, then their manager?
If it still doesn't resolve it, mute them and advise you've done so due to abuse of notifications, and their issues will always be looked at when you're next looking.
Surely you can resolve this by talking to the person, then their manager?
If it still doesn't resolve it, mute them and advise you've done so due to abuse of notifications, and their issues will always be looked at when you're next looking.
[deleted]
i'm old school but:
1) there's this amazing tool that allows you to send a longform communication directly to one or many people where it will get stored and when they're starting their workday they'll see it. it's called e-mail. you should turn off notifications on your phone for e-mail... if a message is urgent, they can call or text.
2) you shouldn't obscure when you're working. creative people often prefer to work late, you should be honest about this so early morning expectations are relaxed. if you're typically a morning person and up on a production issue you should not be expected to be in first thing the next day after staying up late to fix it.
3) all this delayed fake timestamp messaging just contributes to a toxic culture of everybody appearing to be working all the time.
1) there's this amazing tool that allows you to send a longform communication directly to one or many people where it will get stored and when they're starting their workday they'll see it. it's called e-mail. you should turn off notifications on your phone for e-mail... if a message is urgent, they can call or text.
2) you shouldn't obscure when you're working. creative people often prefer to work late, you should be honest about this so early morning expectations are relaxed. if you're typically a morning person and up on a production issue you should not be expected to be in first thing the next day after staying up late to fix it.
3) all this delayed fake timestamp messaging just contributes to a toxic culture of everybody appearing to be working all the time.
Firstly, IMO, email is by no way amazing. It is useful and essentially a standard way of communicating by now, but I have never once thought of the communication protocol as being amazing.
Second, there is nothing toxic about scheduling a text. My father is one of the people who never silences his phone, so when he gets a text or call at night he always wakes up. He gets annoyed if it's not urgent, so a scheduled text message in the morning would make him much happier. Scheduling a text message is all about convenience for the recipient of the message and comes out of a desire to be respectful of the other person's time.
Second, there is nothing toxic about scheduling a text. My father is one of the people who never silences his phone, so when he gets a text or call at night he always wakes up. He gets annoyed if it's not urgent, so a scheduled text message in the morning would make him much happier. Scheduling a text message is all about convenience for the recipient of the message and comes out of a desire to be respectful of the other person's time.
Communication protocols extend through the human layer too. As long as both ends agree on what that is, the medium that the message uses to get from A to B is arbitrary.
With your father, texts are synchronous comms, possibly without requiring an explicit acknowledgement. This may be different for different groups of people. Define what that agreed protocol is and it removes the ambiguity.
With your father, texts are synchronous comms, possibly without requiring an explicit acknowledgement. This may be different for different groups of people. Define what that agreed protocol is and it removes the ambiguity.
I agree with your father, if someone texts/calls during normal sleeping hours it really should be an emergency because if everyone mutes their phones and there’s a real emergency then nobody will be able to get in touch with anybody.
Other than drunk friends and booty calls someone had better be in the hospital or dead if they wake me up in the middle of the night.
Other than drunk friends and booty calls someone had better be in the hospital or dead if they wake me up in the middle of the night.
> if everyone mutes their phones and there’s a real emergency then nobody will be able to get in touch with anybody
You can tell Android and iOS to make noise when someone calls a 2nd time.
You can tell Android and iOS to make noise when someone calls a 2nd time.
Yep, and the spammers know that too so they call twice in a row.
And I’m pretty sure you’re only entitled to one phone call…
And I’m pretty sure you’re only entitled to one phone call…
> Yep, and the spammers know that too so they call twice in a row.
Didn't you just argue everyone shouldn't mute their phones?
> And I’m pretty sure you’re only entitled to one phone call…
You're thinking of a plot device probably.[1]
[1] https://www.betternoahlawyer.com/your-one-phone-call/
Didn't you just argue everyone shouldn't mute their phones?
> And I’m pretty sure you’re only entitled to one phone call…
You're thinking of a plot device probably.[1]
[1] https://www.betternoahlawyer.com/your-one-phone-call/
> Didn't you just argue everyone shouldn't mute their phones?
Mute your phone, don’t mute your phone, doesn’t matter to me. Just don’t wake me up at 3am for petty stuff is all I ask.
I also believe the two call thing let’s anyone through even if you have it where only saved contacts can ring the phone. Maybe, I’d just have it where it would only ring for contacts because I never get calls from random numbers that I ever wanted to talk to other than when I was at work and trying to get people in the cab who would often miss my call and immediately call back so I wouldn’t take off without them.
Mute your phone, don’t mute your phone, doesn’t matter to me. Just don’t wake me up at 3am for petty stuff is all I ask.
I also believe the two call thing let’s anyone through even if you have it where only saved contacts can ring the phone. Maybe, I’d just have it where it would only ring for contacts because I never get calls from random numbers that I ever wanted to talk to other than when I was at work and trying to get people in the cab who would often miss my call and immediately call back so I wouldn’t take off without them.
> It is useful and essentially a standard way of communicating by now
perfect. beautiful. AMAZING!
the smtp crypto situation is a mess, sure, but work emails usually all stay on the same machine or hosting provider anyway. more importantly, it comes from an era before zomg smartphone notifications now now now and as such has respectful communications properties built-in.
> Second, there is nothing toxic about scheduling a text. My father is one of the people who never silences his phone, so when he gets a text or call at night he always wakes up. He gets annoyed if it's not urgent, so a scheduled text message in the morning would make him much happier.
personal matters are just that and i was referring to work stuff mostly.... buuuuut that said...
you should try sending him an e-mail! even if you schedule your text for when he's awake, you're still sending him a demanding interrupt! old people love their e-mails they sit in their big comfy chairs and read them at their leisure with their favorite glasses on with their nice big lamps! he probably will appreciate that even more! if it's urgent and he hasn't responded, THEN you can send an interrupt by giving him a call or sending a text.
instead you're instructing robots to steal your dad's attention at some predetermined time in the future while you do something else... do you see the dystopic themes here?
perfect. beautiful. AMAZING!
the smtp crypto situation is a mess, sure, but work emails usually all stay on the same machine or hosting provider anyway. more importantly, it comes from an era before zomg smartphone notifications now now now and as such has respectful communications properties built-in.
> Second, there is nothing toxic about scheduling a text. My father is one of the people who never silences his phone, so when he gets a text or call at night he always wakes up. He gets annoyed if it's not urgent, so a scheduled text message in the morning would make him much happier.
personal matters are just that and i was referring to work stuff mostly.... buuuuut that said...
you should try sending him an e-mail! even if you schedule your text for when he's awake, you're still sending him a demanding interrupt! old people love their e-mails they sit in their big comfy chairs and read them at their leisure with their favorite glasses on with their nice big lamps! he probably will appreciate that even more! if it's urgent and he hasn't responded, THEN you can send an interrupt by giving him a call or sending a text.
instead you're instructing robots to steal your dad's attention at some predetermined time in the future while you do something else... do you see the dystopic themes here?
> it comes from an era before zomg smartphone notifications now now now and as such has respectful communications properties built-in.
Gmail on iOS certainly will try to notify you for “important” messages. If anything, I think the failure of email in combatting spam is the only thing saving us from the notification-heavy defaults you mentioned.
> instead you're instructing robots to steal your dad's attention at some predetermined time in the future while you do something else... do you see the dystopic themes here?
Not that different from setting a reminder to send the text yourself…and you’d presumably pick a scheduled send time when you’re also available to reply. But I do agree, it’s marginally more impersonal.
Gmail on iOS certainly will try to notify you for “important” messages. If anything, I think the failure of email in combatting spam is the only thing saving us from the notification-heavy defaults you mentioned.
> instead you're instructing robots to steal your dad's attention at some predetermined time in the future while you do something else... do you see the dystopic themes here?
Not that different from setting a reminder to send the text yourself…and you’d presumably pick a scheduled send time when you’re also available to reply. But I do agree, it’s marginally more impersonal.
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> when they're starting their workday they'll see it
Well… I often don’t check my email till after lunch or later. This has never been a problem since anybody who needs an answer to something in less than 24 hours uses slack or text messaging.
Well… I often don’t check my email till after lunch or later. This has never been a problem since anybody who needs an answer to something in less than 24 hours uses slack or text messaging.
Do not disturb is terrible if you are a part-time caregiver or on pager duty. No phone OS gives enough control over its settings and bad news often arrive from unknown numbers, i.e the hospital, 3rd party robot call service, friend of a friend etc. Speaking from experience.
I have DND and the PagerDuty alerts are set to bypass it through the app. There can be improvements made but expecting your social graph to respect an assumed context has similar problems (not to mention due to spam I think most people screen/ignore calls from unknown numbers). I like iOS’s ability to share your DND state with your contacts but even that has challenges (eg people turn it off for privacy reasons real or perceived).
Why has the above (knowing how to properly use the devices that make their lives go round) become so rare?
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I push the button that looks like an old school phone handset and punch in a sequence of numbers corresponding to another phone then talk to someone.
Is there a more proper way to use a phone?
Is there a more proper way to use a phone?
I have mesages that can’t be linked to contacts on vibration during day (silent at night), messages from contacts on vibration during day (during night only the second message within of 15 minutes sends makes a noise), and phone calls always on loud.
That catches all unexpected emergencies without bothering me too much due to emails, IRC messages, or a random text from a friend.
That catches all unexpected emergencies without bothering me too much due to emails, IRC messages, or a random text from a friend.
A brute force solution would be a second (or third) phone for those situations
That seems excessive, because the only people who you give the second number to would be the people setup to bypass the dnd anyway.
That’s idealism whereas this hack deals with realism: many people don’t have their notifications setup perfectly and also feel the pressure to respond immediately.
Why’s that the message sender’s problem though? I can’t help if you pressure yourself even if I’m clear I’m putting none on you.
Because if you are on duty for production issues you may not be able to put your entire smartphone in do not disturb yet you don't want to be woken up at 3 am because some coworker send you something non critical.
Having separate devices for personnal and professional stuff helps. I can't speak about iOS, I used it way too long ago but both Android and most messaging platforms do not provide ways to have flexible do not disturb policies depending on multiple parameters such as sender/timeframe/app/format of message. It is usually a mix of the global do not disturb function for the OS, the global notification parameters per app and possibly some mute options on a contact/channel basis but that is not time range capable and only works on a blacklist instead of whitelist model.
Having separate devices for personnal and professional stuff helps. I can't speak about iOS, I used it way too long ago but both Android and most messaging platforms do not provide ways to have flexible do not disturb policies depending on multiple parameters such as sender/timeframe/app/format of message. It is usually a mix of the global do not disturb function for the OS, the global notification parameters per app and possibly some mute options on a contact/channel basis but that is not time range capable and only works on a blacklist instead of whitelist model.
On iOS the two most popular systems for on-call (OpsGenie and Pager Duty) both bypass DND if configured correctly so it's a non-issue. I imagine Android has something similar.
Dunno my companies all used regular sms, teams or xmpp in the past.
I would argue that, in most social contexts, “receiving a message” does put some amount of pressure on a person.
Unless you have a really explicit understanding with the person you’re texting, they’re gonna assume you expect a response, or just expect them to read the message.
You gotta know how your actions will be received; “I can’t help you” really just isn’t enough if you wanna be a kind and thoughtful person, IMO.
Unless you have a really explicit understanding with the person you’re texting, they’re gonna assume you expect a response, or just expect them to read the message.
You gotta know how your actions will be received; “I can’t help you” really just isn’t enough if you wanna be a kind and thoughtful person, IMO.
I disagree; a message sent on an async platform is not expected to be responded to immediately, it's simply meant to be removed from the sender's "to-do" list.
The distinction between sync vs async messaging isn’t as easy to figure out these days as it was when snail mail vs phone call were the primary options.
The negative consequences of making the wrong choice are both extremely low and extremely loud, so I urge you to just take a guess, with a strong bias for every technology platform being async.
Once upon a time, email was more generally considered to be non-interruptive, while a phone call and later sms was considered interruptive.
Ober time, this distinction has blurred due to technology changes and resulting cultural adjustments including immediate email delivery, voicemail and advanced messaging and notification systems.
And that change over time is causing some disconnects between expectations of good behaviour.
Ober time, this distinction has blurred due to technology changes and resulting cultural adjustments including immediate email delivery, voicemail and advanced messaging and notification systems.
And that change over time is causing some disconnects between expectations of good behaviour.
*due to Samsung, who decided that every email deserved a ringing notification.
It’s especially appalling when they played this trick on my old parents, who receive a slew of emails every morning at 5 or 6am.
It’s especially appalling when they played this trick on my old parents, who receive a slew of emails every morning at 5 or 6am.
> I can’t help if you pressure yourself even if I’m clear I’m putting none on you.
That's... exactly what this is about. Now you _can_ help it.
That's... exactly what this is about. Now you _can_ help it.
Except for the part where you send me a message at 3 am about a work-related issue while I was placidly browsing Reddit and now you made me worry about work-related issues while on leisure time.
Work-related messages during working hours, please.
Work-related messages during working hours, please.
No. Manage your own messaging systems, don't put that extra work onto others, as not everyone has the same schedule as you.
In France, the law says the employer must use an email platform that disables communication during non-working hours.
Yes, it exists. Yes, no-one can notify the guy on duty because no-one can send him emails.
Yes, it exists. Yes, no-one can notify the guy on duty because no-one can send him emails.
Eventually, policies like these lead to “don’t hire employees in France”. At which point, no French employees are even bothered by employers on their free time again...
Ah, you say "don't hire employees in France" but it reads "don't grab slaves in France". If worker's rights are an issue for you, those people in France are better without your "job", thank you very much. There are many many other jobs without near-slavery conditions, luckily.
Yeah, "This guy is great but we will have a hard time contacting him spontaneously after hours so I guess it's back to the hiring pool!"
...is not a sentence that'd be said very often/ever.
...is not a sentence that'd be said very often/ever.
No, manage your own life. You work with me, you should know my schedule. And if you don't, consult it in the timetable. Your laziness is no excuse.
Whose work hours? Times have changed where many people no longer have the same 8ish work hour overlap. There are tz differences and Flex Time. It’s up to you to manage your messages.
Ah, no. The schedules are available for everyone to see. In many countries it is illegal to send work messages outside of working hours. Which should be common sense, but the fact it had to be made law shows that common sense is less common than it should.
That only works 1:1. What about groups? Can I not post Slack messages to a group channel unless everyone is within their working hours? What about email? What if you're in a different locale temporarily for some reason?
No, if you don't want notifications outside your own personal work schedule, then it's up to you to manage them.
With the freedom of remote work and flexible schedules, comes the responsibility to manage your own notifications.
No, if you don't want notifications outside your own personal work schedule, then it's up to you to manage them.
With the freedom of remote work and flexible schedules, comes the responsibility to manage your own notifications.
> That only works 1:1. What about groups?
Check the table for all members.
Can I not post Slack messages to a group channel unless everyone is within their working hours?
Nope.
What about email? What if you're in a different locale temporarily for some reason?
Same.
> No, if you don't want notifications outside your own personal work schedule, then it's up to you to manage them.
Nope. Don't push your duties over other people. It's lazy. You should not message people outside working hours. As I said, it's common sense. Not so common, seems, seeing people like you, insisting on carelessly spam other people because they are too lazy to check a table.
And I repeat, it's even illegal in a bunch of first world countries to send anything, even an email outside of working hours.
So please, don't be that guy, respect other people's free time.
Check the table for all members.
Can I not post Slack messages to a group channel unless everyone is within their working hours?
Nope.
What about email? What if you're in a different locale temporarily for some reason?
Same.
> No, if you don't want notifications outside your own personal work schedule, then it's up to you to manage them.
Nope. Don't push your duties over other people. It's lazy. You should not message people outside working hours. As I said, it's common sense. Not so common, seems, seeing people like you, insisting on carelessly spam other people because they are too lazy to check a table.
And I repeat, it's even illegal in a bunch of first world countries to send anything, even an email outside of working hours.
So please, don't be that guy, respect other people's free time.
You've never worked in an org with more than one time zone, have you?
Yes, and in any minimally organized company, the schedules are posted in a spreadsheet, so everyone knows when the other person is available.
I agree, to be clear I continue to schedule messages despite my inner dialogue.
I’d be ok with messages in a business app (teams, slack or whatever) at whatever hour. But if people are sending me iMessages to my personal phone number I’d be annoyed at just waking to a bunch of work stuff in there.
Context would really depend on my response to asynchronous messages piling up.
Context would really depend on my response to asynchronous messages piling up.
Yeah, it's really weird to have to guess the settings other people desire.
That's why do not disturb on / notifications off is on each of our phones. We control that. I don't expect other people to figure out the right timezone and sleep patterns I have.
That's why do not disturb on / notifications off is on each of our phones. We control that. I don't expect other people to figure out the right timezone and sleep patterns I have.
> I don't think I should have to worry about bothering someone at 3 AM. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect other people to have do not disturb on / notifications off whenever they don't want to be disturbed.
I don't enable do not disturb for people who think that way. I just block them. If you are rude and entitled enough to decide you can disturb me any time you like, I'll ensure you can't.
3am calls/texts are fine for friends/family with an emergency. I will not let you put them at risk because I needed to dnd my phone because you choose to be a jerk.
I don't enable do not disturb for people who think that way. I just block them. If you are rude and entitled enough to decide you can disturb me any time you like, I'll ensure you can't.
3am calls/texts are fine for friends/family with an emergency. I will not let you put them at risk because I needed to dnd my phone because you choose to be a jerk.
I think it’s sort of depends on the workplace culture and everybody buying in or not.
At my company, they are very strict about “just because you message somebody on slack doesn’t mean they have to respond immediately.”
The corollary is “if you don’t set yourself as away or indicate you’re on PTO, as long as it isn’t wildly outside of work hours I expect a response.”
So I have no problem sending somebody a message at 10 AM on a Saturday. Because I know that everybody at the company generally has everything flipped off. Even if they get a notification, my assumption is that they will go “oh I forgot to turn that off,” flick it off, and promptly respond to me on Monday.
Like most of these things, the devil is in the details. And if you don’t make the rules clear from the get-go, then it can be ripe for abuse and situations like you being bothered by people in the middle of the night arise.
At my company, they are very strict about “just because you message somebody on slack doesn’t mean they have to respond immediately.”
The corollary is “if you don’t set yourself as away or indicate you’re on PTO, as long as it isn’t wildly outside of work hours I expect a response.”
So I have no problem sending somebody a message at 10 AM on a Saturday. Because I know that everybody at the company generally has everything flipped off. Even if they get a notification, my assumption is that they will go “oh I forgot to turn that off,” flick it off, and promptly respond to me on Monday.
Like most of these things, the devil is in the details. And if you don’t make the rules clear from the get-go, then it can be ripe for abuse and situations like you being bothered by people in the middle of the night arise.
You realize phones can dnd everyone but the people you want to disturb you in the middle of the night now right?
Sure.
I choose to use default-allow, and block people I consider rude and/or abusive.
I want my partner/friends/family to reliably be able to emergency call me from a payphone or borrowed phone, more than I want to pander to cow orkers with vestigial social skills.
I choose to use default-allow, and block people I consider rude and/or abusive.
I want my partner/friends/family to reliably be able to emergency call me from a payphone or borrowed phone, more than I want to pander to cow orkers with vestigial social skills.
That's how my thinking has come around as well and a benefit of maintaining work vs. personal device separation.
If I'm on a work computer/device/profile I don't mind seeing work-related items. Even better if its clear when action is needed.
As many companies become more diverse in working times, trusting individuals to manage it seems like one option while the other is would be patterned off the French "Right to disconnect"
If I'm on a work computer/device/profile I don't mind seeing work-related items. Even better if its clear when action is needed.
As many companies become more diverse in working times, trusting individuals to manage it seems like one option while the other is would be patterned off the French "Right to disconnect"
Culture is a shifting beast.
Being courteous means trying to think on behalf of the other person.
However, as we interact with ever increasing numbers of individuals with an ever increasing variety of backgrounds and personal circumstance, it’s increasingly impossible to think on behalf of everyone we interact with.
And therefore it makes sense that we all need to design and configure mechanisms, that allow us to interact while keeping stress levels somewhat manageable.
Being courteous means trying to think on behalf of the other person.
However, as we interact with ever increasing numbers of individuals with an ever increasing variety of backgrounds and personal circumstance, it’s increasingly impossible to think on behalf of everyone we interact with.
And therefore it makes sense that we all need to design and configure mechanisms, that allow us to interact while keeping stress levels somewhat manageable.
>I don't think it's unreasonable to expect other people to have do not disturb on / notifications off whenever they don't want to be disturbed.
This makes sense in a world where vendors have perfected notifications. IMO, notifications are still a cluster^*&k. This is why they are still very much a moving target for ios.
This makes sense in a world where vendors have perfected notifications. IMO, notifications are still a cluster^*&k. This is why they are still very much a moving target for ios.
Most of the time when I delay emails or Slack messages, it’s because I don’t want others to respond until later because of my own busyness or more important items to address today. Scheduling let’s me delay more back-and-forth but with the luxury of queuing my latest message now.
Another common feature of a default app that Apple lacks is having multiple timers on the iPhone clock app. Most often used by my partner when cooking and there are a couple things going that need different times. This is a feature in my Pixel and I just can't understand what reason there is to not include it.
That said though, this is a fantastic work around, I love seeing clever uses of tools to make them do things their creators (probably) didn't necessarily intend.
That said though, this is a fantastic work around, I love seeing clever uses of tools to make them do things their creators (probably) didn't necessarily intend.
Why don’t my timers sync?
If I start something on my watch or HomePod why can’t I check in on it on my phone?
Why do I need a set of independent timers for ever Apple device I own?
If I start something on my watch or HomePod why can’t I check in on it on my phone?
Why do I need a set of independent timers for ever Apple device I own?
Syncing clocks is surprisingly difficult. On top of that you have to get the message to all the devices that there even is a timer, this might be delivered after the timer expires. I don't think you could do this in a way where people could rely on it. You already have caldav which can sync your agenda, I think that's probably the closest you'll get.
There's a sibling comment that mentions HomeKit timers. I'd bet those are living on some remote machine and you're only able to check them but they behave very differently from local timers.
There's a sibling comment that mentions HomeKit timers. I'd bet those are living on some remote machine and you're only able to check them but they behave very differently from local timers.
Where's the trouble in dispatching a message for all devices connected to a given Apple ID, those devices checking whether the timer is in the past (and silently discarding it in that case), and setting a local timer to the desired target time?
As a sibling commenter said, this isn't about millisecond precision, but making sure the timer telling me to take the cake out of the oven I set on the tablet in the kitchen will ring on my phone.
As a sibling commenter said, this isn't about millisecond precision, but making sure the timer telling me to take the cake out of the oven I set on the tablet in the kitchen will ring on my phone.
All we need is a start timestamp and access to the current timestamp. If we can improve the accuracy of the 'current' timestamp by hosting it on a remote server, so be it.
But I doubt that's necessary. How much do you think the clocks on computers drift between syncs? I would wager if I isolated my laptop and phone from any networks, they'd continue to show the same time for quite a while.
But I doubt that's necessary. How much do you think the clocks on computers drift between syncs? I would wager if I isolated my laptop and phone from any networks, they'd continue to show the same time for quite a while.
All the devices are already synced to an NTP server. I don’t need millisecond accuracy here.
You can check a HomePod timer on your phone - it’s in the home app under whatever pod it is, down the bottom
This makes me even more annoyed than if it just wasn't possible
Especially since alarms can sync between phone/watch (or at least you can snooze/cancel phone alarms from the watch, which shows that they're at least talking)
I can turn off a timer set on my phone using my watch but I can't turn off a timer set on my watch using my phone.
> Another common feature of a default app that Apple lacks is having multiple timers on the iPhone clock app.
siri supports this. i mainly use it when cooking and need multiple timers.
siri supports this. i mainly use it when cooking and need multiple timers.
This is why I always loved jailbreaking my iPhones. Typically there is an app out there somewhere that will do what you want but it was always nice to go to cydia and find a tweak that allowed stock apps and functions to do what they normally would not be able to do.
I would love that feature for cooking! It's such a no-brainer.
Edit: it seems there exists an app for that[1]. Gonna try it tomorrow.
[1]: <https://apps.apple.com/us/app/easy-cooking-timer/id492224774>
Edit: it seems there exists an app for that[1]. Gonna try it tomorrow.
[1]: <https://apps.apple.com/us/app/easy-cooking-timer/id492224774>
iOS lacks support for multiple instances of nearly everything. It's the OS of "form over function."
> so I had come to depend on it in my daily workflow. It’s especially useful in situations where I have a work-related thought at 3AM and don’t want to risk waking up and annoying my co-workers.
At first glance this seems like a perfect match for e-mail instead of iMessage or SMS.
From least to most urgent: Postcard E-Mail Slack iMessage SMS Call
At first glance this seems like a perfect match for e-mail instead of iMessage or SMS.
From least to most urgent: Postcard E-Mail Slack iMessage SMS Call
Not to mention, (some) email has a send later feature.
> It’s especially useful in situations where I have a work-related thought at 3AM and don’t want to risk waking up and annoying my co-workers.
Just send an email?
If it doesn’t require an immediate response, use email.
Also if it’s iPhone to iPhone you likely won’t interrupt the other user since they would/should have night mode on anyway.
Just send an email?
If it doesn’t require an immediate response, use email.
Also if it’s iPhone to iPhone you likely won’t interrupt the other user since they would/should have night mode on anyway.
Similar to other notifications, I feel its up to the recienver to control their notification in a way that makes sense to them.
Some teams doesn’t have dedicated on-call engineer, so message as 3am may mean something may be urgent. At least it would be difficult to resist looking at what is going on.
E-mail is way to go in this situation.
Also, sender will be unavailable to reply for additional info, while appearing to be online.
E-mail is way to go in this situation.
Also, sender will be unavailable to reply for additional info, while appearing to be online.
The obvious solution to this is to have a separate communication channel for critically urgent/important messages.
[deleted]
I don’t have access to corporate email on my phone, although I’d probably use Slack instead of a text.
We like it or not, spam, corporate and commercial harassment made so that many people have dropped email for most intra team communication a long time ago and barely check it or only once a week.
Adding a new calendar for this seems odd. You can skip that step and load your messages from the Notes app, or use something like Data Jar [0] to store your messages in the desired structure, alongside the phone number and date/time you expect them to go out on (assuming you have set multiple automations throughout the day that would check if a message needs to be sent out that hour).
Admittedly this is still a bit hacky, but good to see that it's possible.
[0]: https://datajar.app/
Admittedly this is still a bit hacky, but good to see that it's possible.
[0]: https://datajar.app/
I understand why Apple is hesitant to add the feature.
But this is a fantastic shortcut to get around the limitation.
But this is a fantastic shortcut to get around the limitation.
Why would they be hesitant? Complex user experience?
I'll admit I've never scheduled a message for later, other than on Twitter since I've lived in some awkward time zones relative to the bulk of my mutuals. But I can't come up with a reason why Apple wouldn't want to add it.
I'll admit I've never scheduled a message for later, other than on Twitter since I've lived in some awkward time zones relative to the bulk of my mutuals. But I can't come up with a reason why Apple wouldn't want to add it.
I can imagine a number of complications here. How should delayed send work with respect to both end-to-end encryption and with network connectivity loss? Ie I can see a possible way to build this where the sending user’s device queues and sends it later, but what if that device is out of network coverage area, or battery-dead, at the requested send time? …so then we could think about doing it at the server level, but then to maintain end-to-end encryption, the message would have to be pre-encrypted; how would we handle rekeying a user? Ie if the delay send is for 24 hours from now, but one of the recipient’s keys get rotated (which afaik can happen in a couple of reasonable conditions; but others here will know more)… well, we end up with a solution that also can’t reliably deliver the message.
One thing I really appreciate about Apple Messages is just how well it works, and how little spam ever makes it in. I think the reliability of Messages is almost taken for granted… I wouldn’t want to give that reliability promise up for this sort of feature!
One thing I really appreciate about Apple Messages is just how well it works, and how little spam ever makes it in. I think the reliability of Messages is almost taken for granted… I wouldn’t want to give that reliability promise up for this sort of feature!
Maybe I am missing something obvious/important. Google Messages delay send will not send the message if the phone is off/disconnected. What's wrong with Apple Messages setting up delayed messages just like that? You said reliability. But Google Messages delay has worked 100% of the time for me and I've never had a situation where the phone was off when it needed so maybe I am the wrong person to ask.
Is there a way to have the timestamp part be unencrypted and the message be encrypted or does that violate end to end policy?
Though I like being able to cancel/edit until the send deadline so from my perspective it's best to keep on the sender device as long as possible and send only at the last possible second.
Is there a way to have the timestamp part be unencrypted and the message be encrypted or does that violate end to end policy?
Though I like being able to cancel/edit until the send deadline so from my perspective it's best to keep on the sender device as long as possible and send only at the last possible second.
But iMessage is synced between devices. So if I delay a send on my iPhone and lose network, my other Apple devices know enough they could still send it.
Should they (I asked to send) or not (‘sending’ device offline)?
Should they (I asked to send) or not (‘sending’ device offline)?
If it's E2EE, why not send the message with a timestamp at which the server should approximately process the message? If it's well encapsulated/encrypted, it shouldn't matter that the message is on the server for a while.
Who said the queue has to be on the sender’s device or the server?
Sender sends it encrypted with a flag to not display until X time, phone receives it whenever, and then displays it at X time because it’s just been sitting there.
Sender sends it encrypted with a flag to not display until X time, phone receives it whenever, and then displays it at X time because it’s just been sitting there.
Well I think one benefit of a scheduled send is the ability to cancel or edit after hitting the send button. So I'm not sure if I'd appreciate setting it up like you say here.
You can send updates or a cancel message after the fact still.
Then that would fail if the receiver goes offline.
Sounds like someone recently studied system design interviews, did the compensation bump work out?
What does the receiving user see? Do they know it was scheduled?
If not they may expect me to start responding when I may be unavailable.
What happens to read status (when on)? I haven’t read your last X messages but I did send one to you? That’s off.
Can it be canceled?
How does this interact with the new function in iOS 16 letting you edit and delete after send?
Can I schedule send on my iPhone but edit before send on my iPad?
What if I schedule send and lose network. Then I edit on both my iPhone and iPad to show different things but they’re both off network. Not they both come back. What gets sent?
What if the ‘wrong one’ comes back first?
Does it work with SMS?
Lots of weird complications to think about.
If not they may expect me to start responding when I may be unavailable.
What happens to read status (when on)? I haven’t read your last X messages but I did send one to you? That’s off.
Can it be canceled?
How does this interact with the new function in iOS 16 letting you edit and delete after send?
Can I schedule send on my iPhone but edit before send on my iPad?
What if I schedule send and lose network. Then I edit on both my iPhone and iPad to show different things but they’re both off network. Not they both come back. What gets sent?
What if the ‘wrong one’ comes back first?
Does it work with SMS?
Lots of weird complications to think about.
Using Telegram as a reference:
- In the notification: yes. In the chat view: no. I don't know why it matters, though. If you expect an immediate response, you should probably use a more asynchronous communication method (many email platforms can hold messages for you). That doesn't seem like a reason to not make the feature available, though.
- That's a possible state regardless, unless the client must always have a full database of all received messages before new messages come in; most messaging apps seem to support a "fragmented" read state and I doubt iOS's messenger doesn't.
- Yes
- I don't see the problem here. Replace the message in the queue using an account+message identifier/cryptographic signature/magical pixie dust.
- Yes
- If the message is sent by the server at the scheduled time, this isn't a problem. If you rely on individual devices (Google's implementation), you may end up sending a duplicate. I doubt this'll happen that often in practice.
- Depends on the implementation; the server will probably keep the "correct" version to send.
- Probably not? There are tons of features that don't work with SMS though. I haven't used SMS for years, but Google's Messages app has delayed messages and a web client, so this seems like a solved enough problem for those still using SMS.
Several chat apps, including SMS apps, have this feature already. E2EE adds a layer of complexity but even that can be fixed with existing technology.
- In the notification: yes. In the chat view: no. I don't know why it matters, though. If you expect an immediate response, you should probably use a more asynchronous communication method (many email platforms can hold messages for you). That doesn't seem like a reason to not make the feature available, though.
- That's a possible state regardless, unless the client must always have a full database of all received messages before new messages come in; most messaging apps seem to support a "fragmented" read state and I doubt iOS's messenger doesn't.
- Yes
- I don't see the problem here. Replace the message in the queue using an account+message identifier/cryptographic signature/magical pixie dust.
- Yes
- If the message is sent by the server at the scheduled time, this isn't a problem. If you rely on individual devices (Google's implementation), you may end up sending a duplicate. I doubt this'll happen that often in practice.
- Depends on the implementation; the server will probably keep the "correct" version to send.
- Probably not? There are tons of features that don't work with SMS though. I haven't used SMS for years, but Google's Messages app has delayed messages and a web client, so this seems like a solved enough problem for those still using SMS.
Several chat apps, including SMS apps, have this feature already. E2EE adds a layer of complexity but even that can be fixed with existing technology.
Personally, I would solve all of these by pushing the message up, like sending it, but with colors that make it clear that it's suspended, and a clock icon, which shows when it will send.
Long press the message to get a context menu: edit, delete, reschedule, send now.
As for sync and all that, whatever algorithm they use for Notes is fine with me. I would expect the message itself to be living in iCloud until it's sent, so most of the questions about losing network connectivity or not having battery life wouldn't apply. So no, no SMS: support for SMS in Messages is an afterthought and I would in fact prefer two different apps, although I might be the only one who feels that way.
Long press the message to get a context menu: edit, delete, reschedule, send now.
As for sync and all that, whatever algorithm they use for Notes is fine with me. I would expect the message itself to be living in iCloud until it's sent, so most of the questions about losing network connectivity or not having battery life wouldn't apply. So no, no SMS: support for SMS in Messages is an afterthought and I would in fact prefer two different apps, although I might be the only one who feels that way.
Telegram's implementation shows a little calendar icon next to the text input when you've planned a message, which takes you to a list of planned messages you can interact with like any other message. This solves the problem of your message appearing right in the middle of already sent messages or your message constantly bubbling down as a real-time conversation takes place. I think it works quite well.
I'll take a crack here: they believe the need should be solved elsehow. They see the "I want to send a message later because I don't want to bug anybody" need as better solved from the other end: "I don't want to be bugged because I'm asleep/busy/whatever".
Spam
This one I'm not seeing. Spam is about volume, how does this help a spammer spam more if it takes longer than just sending a message, which presumably it would?
I don't. Why is Apple hesitant exactly?
Me neither, can't see "the obvious" reason for them not implementing this.
Apple usually trots out "privacy" or "security" when people find their software lacking in terms of usability or convenience but I can't understand why this would be an issue for them.
Apple usually trots out "privacy" or "security" when people find their software lacking in terms of usability or convenience but I can't understand why this would be an issue for them.
I’d prefer it on long press to those 5 “it’s a party” things I can send.
I feel like this is trying to dodge IM and email noise fatigue and having that bleed into texts. I'm nocturnal when I have the choice so I understand, but would definitely mute a coworker if they regularly texted me on a schedule for when I wake up.
For what it's worth, our "Groups" app (which has been downloaded by 10 million people in 95+ countries) has offered this kind of feature for years. It lets you set reminders to send mass messages to people. It also does things like list contacts by the time you met them, so if you went to a party last night or a week ago, you can see who you have to follow up with.
We meant to turn it into a full-fledged ORM, but we got busy with the Qbix Platform. Anyway, if you want to give it a try, go here: https://qbix.com/GROUPS
We meant to turn it into a full-fledged ORM, but we got busy with the Qbix Platform. Anyway, if you want to give it a try, go here: https://qbix.com/GROUPS
There’s an automation that’s triggered when you receive an email. Coupled with Mail’s “Send later” feature in iOS 16 and some parsing, you can send messages at any time you want.
When shortcuts were first released I immediately tried to implement delayed messaging too. In the end I wasn’t able to get it working and gave up. Great job finding this workaround!
This is a really fun feature.
I used this to make automatic birthday messages based on the birthday’s calendar.
Since the contacts app syncs with the birthday calendar, it’s easy enough to map names to phone numbers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gXL1S4MnyE
Since the contacts app syncs with the birthday calendar, it’s easy enough to map names to phone numbers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gXL1S4MnyE
I usually send sms from the Unix shell so a delayed message takes the form of:
If I drop my phone in the river I can still send sms from my own phone number.
Not “blue” bubble though…
sleep 7200 ; sms …
If I drop my phone in the river I can still send sms from my own phone number.
Not “blue” bubble though…
You could use at(1) instead, so that you don't need to keep that terminal process open.
I find as I get older, I want to simplify. I know setting this up would be easy but it’s just one more thing to mess with that isn’t tackling a fundamental issue. The fundamental issue here is why you want to send delayed messages not how.
In my one case, I act as the custodian of the mobile internet provider. the more people I have on my plan, the less everybody else pays (plus much higher leverage w/ the provider). I pay the provider directly, and every individual is expected to pay me their share (including any installment plans on phones).
Instead of manually typing out and sending a response to everybody. Now I can just setup this automation and it will send out my reminder every month. That's 6-7 minutes I save every month just for this use case.
Instead of manually typing out and sending a response to everybody. Now I can just setup this automation and it will send out my reminder every month. That's 6-7 minutes I save every month just for this use case.
forget work, This would be useful for texting someone you’re interested in that would be wary of someone that text at an odd hour or “too soon”, just send the thing you are thinking of at the time but set a delay!
very useful, thanks for sharing!
I ended up configuring the shortcut to use the location field rather than title field. So at least my calendar won't look odd.
Still works as expected. I wasn't entirely sure how to format the text field so it would pick up the phone numbers (in case of group messages). So I just went with my gut and used a space separator for each distinct number and typed the fully qualified number (ie, +1YYYXXXZZZZ)
I ended up configuring the shortcut to use the location field rather than title field. So at least my calendar won't look odd.
Still works as expected. I wasn't entirely sure how to format the text field so it would pick up the phone numbers (in case of group messages). So I just went with my gut and used a space separator for each distinct number and typed the fully qualified number (ie, +1YYYXXXZZZZ)
You can make a new shortcut that is triggered by a specific hour. Not sure why this post says it can’t be done.
I used it last month to wish someone happy birthday.
I used it last month to wish someone happy birthday.
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Work though at 3am? Sounds like a really unhealthy relationship with work. Not surprised author is from states.
> Work though at 3am? Sounds like a really unhealthy relationship with work. Not surprised author is from states.
it's common for creative individual contributors to work late and often those kinds of people do their best work late. i'd argue that the way it can become unhealthy is when rigid early work hours lead to sleep deprivation which can damage performance, well-being and overall stability.
it's common for creative individual contributors to work late and often those kinds of people do their best work late. i'd argue that the way it can become unhealthy is when rigid early work hours lead to sleep deprivation which can damage performance, well-being and overall stability.
Some people (like me) are wide awake at 3AM and have work thoughts then. Others are asleep - we’re all different. I tend to use email drafts or email myself the text with a note to forward it.
But I've thought about this a bit recently, and I don't think I should have to worry about bothering someone at 3 AM. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect other people to have do not disturb on / notifications off whenever they don't want to be disturbed.
And one cautionary tale about scheduling messages (email in particular): I once encountered a problem at 3AM and scheduled an 8AM text to tell someone about it, but they woke up at 6AM and immediately fixed it and were confused why I still had the problem two hours later (when my message arrived).