Tesla ordered by auto regulators to provide data on ‘Elon mode’ configuration(cnbc.com)
cnbc.com
Tesla ordered by auto regulators to provide data on ‘Elon mode’ configuration
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/30/tesla-ordered-by-nhtsa-to-provide-data-on-elon-mode-for-autopilot.html
34 comments
It's people like you that Elon hopes will downplay problems for him on social media.
The National Highway Transportation Administration is charged with the safety of the public foremost, not Tesla's stock price.
They will conduct their investigation, ask for whatever information they want. If it is no big deal, they will say so, not Elon on social media, or you parroting whatever he wants you to.
The National Highway Transportation Administration is charged with the safety of the public foremost, not Tesla's stock price.
They will conduct their investigation, ask for whatever information they want. If it is no big deal, they will say so, not Elon on social media, or you parroting whatever he wants you to.
1. 'People like me'? What, the ones watching the demo video and not just taking some media hack's word for what happened?
2. I don't care about Tesla's stock price. I don't own any. Don't care about the NHTSA either — not American.
3. I'm not parroting anything — I watched the video before I saw the article, and thought the tone of the article was off.
2. I don't care about Tesla's stock price. I don't own any. Don't care about the NHTSA either — not American.
3. I'm not parroting anything — I watched the video before I saw the article, and thought the tone of the article was off.
Definitely not a low-key incident. There were cars turning left in front of him and a pedestrian near the car. Some people are chill with unsafe driving but it’s important to remember in this case he’s aggressively monetizing his own disregard for safety. This is a step above Uber drivers being jerks.
“Oh, it’s no big deal that our alpha autonomous car just tried to run into oncoming traffic, calm down. Our genius CEO was able to stop it, even while illegally operating his phone the whole time, so you’ll have no problem. It’s not like safely navigating the road, is the primary goal of this product.”
Why does Elon get a pass for brazenly breaking CA laws? This billionaire can’t afford a phone mount? Or even a passenger to hold it? Why is the public subjected to being unpaid test dummies?
Why does Elon get a pass for brazenly breaking CA laws? This billionaire can’t afford a phone mount? Or even a passenger to hold it? Why is the public subjected to being unpaid test dummies?
Do you have a link to the video? In your description it sounds extremely irresponsible - he had his hands off the wheel because he was filming a selfie video? Sounds like he wasn't driving with due care and attention.
He wasn't making a 'selfie' — he was filming the demo drive. You watch the video and tell me if you think he was being "extremely irresponsible". I don't think he was.
Video link: https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1djxXlVLaLOxZ
The intervention is ~19:50
Video link: https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1djxXlVLaLOxZ
The intervention is ~19:50
He was filming the demo drive while being the actual test driver.
It's arguable whether he was compliant to the regulatory requirement that the test-driver is able to take control of the car at any time.
In a standard car, at least -most- countries would not consider him capable to properly operate the vehicle in such a state.
This might sound like nitpicking, but only until he hits YOUR car because he was distracted by filming a video of his new beta software which was glitching out...
It's arguable whether he was compliant to the regulatory requirement that the test-driver is able to take control of the car at any time.
In a standard car, at least -most- countries would not consider him capable to properly operate the vehicle in such a state.
This might sound like nitpicking, but only until he hits YOUR car because he was distracted by filming a video of his new beta software which was glitching out...
Re "A nag-free test mode makes a lot of sense for the engineers testing the cars. I don't see anything wrong with that."
I think you meant "A nag free test mode for lab bench and test track use..."
I think you meant "A nag free test mode for lab bench and test track use..."
Something something “everything is tested in production eventually”.
(I agree fully with you, I’m just being a bit glib.)
(I agree fully with you, I’m just being a bit glib.)
I don’t see how running a red light could be anything other than a big deal lol
Between this and previous lawsuit against SpaceX, it seems the nation state is coming after him because he might have gone “over the top” too many times. I mean sure these things might be legit at their face value but the selective enforcement and timing of these do seem sus.
It's disappointing that the NHTSA is allowing details to be sealed.
If there is a cheat code and it has been potentially leaked by employees the public surely has a right to know about it.
If there is a cheat code and it has been potentially leaked by employees the public surely has a right to know about it.
Each Tesla is connected to an account and therefore a person. Just like they can push OTA and enable in-car purchases, they can enable certain modes for certain people.
I don’t think that there’s a hidden command to do so from the dashboard, but surely they can do it remotely. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a “if user === elon” condition just like on Twitter
I don’t think that there’s a hidden command to do so from the dashboard, but surely they can do it remotely. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a “if user === elon” condition just like on Twitter
> Each Tesla is connected to an account and therefore a person.
Why do people put up with this? Seems absolutely insane to connect a car's functionality to the internet, aside maybe from remote start. Where are the legislators? Where are the regulatory bodies?
Why do people put up with this? Seems absolutely insane to connect a car's functionality to the internet, aside maybe from remote start. Where are the legislators? Where are the regulatory bodies?
And it leads to absolutely ridiculous and predictable outcomes.
Tesla’s backend for fleet management at least used to be an absolute shit show that barely worked on the best day.
Apart from that, remember when (I think it was?) Troy Hunt published an article on how trivial it was to control some in-car features with nothing but a VIN and Internet connection?
There are certainly ways to do these things correctly. But until those measures are required by law and are -actually- implemented both consistently and sanely, it’ll be an intermittent bad time. The auto industry can barely get hardware security right, let alone electronic and digital security.
Tesla’s backend for fleet management at least used to be an absolute shit show that barely worked on the best day.
Apart from that, remember when (I think it was?) Troy Hunt published an article on how trivial it was to control some in-car features with nothing but a VIN and Internet connection?
There are certainly ways to do these things correctly. But until those measures are required by law and are -actually- implemented both consistently and sanely, it’ll be an intermittent bad time. The auto industry can barely get hardware security right, let alone electronic and digital security.
Because its not a big deal.
Your post is total speculation. I agree with the parent comment, it's disappointing that whatever it happening here is not making it past the NHTSA into the public.
So is everything around this mode. It came out from a hacker who found it in the code. For a long time people have been altering and delimiting cars, so I don’t think this deserve much news until someone enables it without hacking the car.
The original article mentions that it could be enabled via “cheat code” but nothing points towards that, so my hardcoded condition is just as good a speculation.
A better article: https://electrek.co/2023/06/22/tesla-autopilot-elon-mode-not...
The original article mentions that it could be enabled via “cheat code” but nothing points towards that, so my hardcoded condition is just as good a speculation.
A better article: https://electrek.co/2023/06/22/tesla-autopilot-elon-mode-not...
In the case of Twitter/X, 'Elon mode' was simply a testing configuration. I don't see why it would be any different in Tesla.
Well, test configurations on Twitter are one thing. Test configurations on the public roadways make everyone around the vehicle an unwilling participant in that testing configuration.
Having a testing configuration doesn’t strike me as a problem, but it seems like it would be very important that the testing configuration be managed very carefully, and only applied to the appropriate vehicles that are intended to be operated under testing conditions.
Having a testing configuration doesn’t strike me as a problem, but it seems like it would be very important that the testing configuration be managed very carefully, and only applied to the appropriate vehicles that are intended to be operated under testing conditions.
>Test configurations on the public roadways make everyone around the vehicle an unwilling participant in that testing configuration.
Why do people fail/refuse to grasp this really simple thing?
Why do people fail/refuse to grasp this really simple thing?
Because they just parrot whatever Elon tells them to, they fall for his schtick.
National Highway Transportation Administration is responsible for public safety in these matters, and will investigate the situation, and they will make a determination.
Tired of Elon's psyops shit.
National Highway Transportation Administration is responsible for public safety in these matters, and will investigate the situation, and they will make a determination.
Tired of Elon's psyops shit.
Even if it is a testing configuration, it has no place in code that is deployed to vehicles that drive on public roads, much less being enabled on cars that drive on public roads, without prior special approval - which is what’s under investigation. I am not a test subject.
For completeness I've seen a fair share of Infotainment units with development/test modes in production.
The main difference is as far as I know those have a fairly segregate gap between cockpit infotainment and safety critical vehicle functions, including separate CAN buses and CAN gateways.
With Tesla I am not sure as they seem to have thrown away every lesson in Automotive design and started from scratch.
The main difference is as far as I know those have a fairly segregate gap between cockpit infotainment and safety critical vehicle functions, including separate CAN buses and CAN gateways.
With Tesla I am not sure as they seem to have thrown away every lesson in Automotive design and started from scratch.
I have no issue with infotainment systems with development, beta, test modes in vehicles on the road as long as the infotainment system is not essential to safe operation of the vehicle.
My point exactly, entirely unclear to me if that separation happens with Tesla.
As far as I remember, the infotainment screen and menus are used for operations related to driving the car, such as wiper controls. I don’t own a Tesla nor do I drive one, so I may be wrong. I personally would consider that a lack of separation.
In this case, however, the question is irrelevant - the FSD system is clearly part of operating the vehicle, it’s safety relevant and not there for infotainment.
In this case, however, the question is irrelevant - the FSD system is clearly part of operating the vehicle, it’s safety relevant and not there for infotainment.
Except until forced to, the Tesla default nag mode was "one alert per fifteen MINUTES".
All their marketing (I'm sorry, I forgot, Tesla doesn't do marketing) is all about the safety of FSD/AP and their vehicles in general. The reality is very much "we have to be dragged kicking and screaming into most safety improvements".
All their marketing (I'm sorry, I forgot, Tesla doesn't do marketing) is all about the safety of FSD/AP and their vehicles in general. The reality is very much "we have to be dragged kicking and screaming into most safety improvements".
I'm no fan of Tesla [anymore] but as an owner since 2015 I've never gone more than 2 minutes without a nag.
And it's a rather shitty system in general considering my hands are always on the wheel and I have to constantly manually apply resistance.
So maybe don't hate on a theoretical 15m window. Sounds kind of amazing. It's not like the car doesn't constantly demands you take over outside of this nag...
And it's a rather shitty system in general considering my hands are always on the wheel and I have to constantly manually apply resistance.
So maybe don't hate on a theoretical 15m window. Sounds kind of amazing. It's not like the car doesn't constantly demands you take over outside of this nag...
> we have to be dragged kicking and screaming into most safety improvements
tesla.com/autopilot doesn't hide this. The video that's the main feature of the page (from many years ago) starts out saying the person in driver seat is only there for legal reasons.
It's ridiculous what they've gotten away with.
tesla.com/autopilot doesn't hide this. The video that's the main feature of the page (from many years ago) starts out saying the person in driver seat is only there for legal reasons.
It's ridiculous what they've gotten away with.
That's not true. It is not one alert per fifteen minutes. Where did you get that info?
"Until forced to".
2016 it was fifteen minutes. 2017, it was reduced to five minutes. And from then down to where it is now.
> One of the findings was alarming. According to the NTSB, an agency that rarely investigates auto accidents and usually spends years delving into plane crashes: "[d]uring the last 41 minutes of [Joshua] Brown's trip, the Model S was in Autopilot for 37.5 minutes …. Brown had his hands off the wheel for a total of 37 minutes during the time the car was in Autopilot."
> "The Model S displayed the visual warning 'hold steering wheel' seven times during the trip."
2016 it was fifteen minutes. 2017, it was reduced to five minutes. And from then down to where it is now.
> One of the findings was alarming. According to the NTSB, an agency that rarely investigates auto accidents and usually spends years delving into plane crashes: "[d]uring the last 41 minutes of [Joshua] Brown's trip, the Model S was in Autopilot for 37.5 minutes …. Brown had his hands off the wheel for a total of 37 minutes during the time the car was in Autopilot."
> "The Model S displayed the visual warning 'hold steering wheel' seven times during the trip."
Can I drive my car in test configuration where I unplug brakes and stop light? You know - for science!
This makes it sound much more dramatic than it was (I watched the video). The car mistook a green arrow for a green light, and started to move forward, and Musk stopped it. It was pretty low key. Musk had his hands off the wheel during the drive because he was holding the phone streaming the video, but he was clearly alert and aware of what the car was doing — that's what the conversation with Elluswamy was mostly about.
A nag-free test mode makes a lot of sense for the engineers testing the cars. I don't see anything wrong with that.