Trying for twelve years to chase down and catch an antelope by foot [audio](thisamericanlife.org)
thisamericanlife.org
Trying for twelve years to chase down and catch an antelope by foot [audio]
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/80/running-after-antelope
49 comments
For those who don’t want to sit through the listen, they’re never able to do it. From the interspersed stories, the “run an animal to exhaustion” theory only works if it’s 1) not an antelope (ex. A deer), 2) the runner is good at tracking, and 3) the runner is able to consistently track the same animal even through multiple herd merges.
Here's an 8 hour exhaustion hunt of a kudu, a species of antelope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
Did they never mention the concept of wounding the animal with a trap or missile weapon first?
Of course it's unethical to test that theory but it's surely the first thing you'd think of doing if you actually wanted to catch an animal. Of course it would be devilishly difficult to hit an individual antelope with a missile weapon, but slinging 100 rocks at a herd over time is much less energy than chasing on foot.
Of course it's unethical to test that theory but it's surely the first thing you'd think of doing if you actually wanted to catch an animal. Of course it would be devilishly difficult to hit an individual antelope with a missile weapon, but slinging 100 rocks at a herd over time is much less energy than chasing on foot.
Nope. The experiment is to see if it's possible to run down an animal completely unaided, then capture or kill it. It sounded like they want to duplicate a pre-tool use scenario but I'm personally in the same camp as you - seems a lot more likely that pre-tool hominids would have probably been pretty good at chucking rocks or pointy sticks.
[deleted]
Rocks and pointy sticks are tools, pointy sticks work even better with a woomera or atlatl, and yes, insanely good at chucking stuff ... I went to a primary school that had old guys come in most lunch times to throw spears and other objects with kids at targets up to an (AFL) football field length away.
Even with rocks you can hunt smart, throwing rocks and chasing to box them into gullys even they find hard to jump clear of before a pack of kids close in.
For general interest:
Is this the best spear fisherman in the world? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmCX7R-W4c
Even with rocks you can hunt smart, throwing rocks and chasing to box them into gullys even they find hard to jump clear of before a pack of kids close in.
For general interest:
Is this the best spear fisherman in the world? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmCX7R-W4c
Pre-tool hominids is going back over 3 million years ago, maybe much further. Long before homo sapiens even existed.
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The unsaid thing about endurance hunting is that you need to pick the right animal from the group and know how to persist hunt, aka keep prey away from water, have them run at the middle of the day, pace yourself, know the area and take shorter routes, know how to separate an animal from the herd.
Temperature of the area also plays a large part, perhaps the writer was doing this in a cooler area giving the animal an advantage.
I have not listened to the Audio, but most factors are not usually considered when people talk about any kind of persistence hunting.
I have hunted pigs, kangaroos and wild dogs and reindeer this way, without guns sometimes with dogs.
I am unable to do this in my older age, it's a younger man's game, it's good to see that people are still trying.
Temperature of the area also plays a large part, perhaps the writer was doing this in a cooler area giving the animal an advantage.
I have not listened to the Audio, but most factors are not usually considered when people talk about any kind of persistence hunting.
I have hunted pigs, kangaroos and wild dogs and reindeer this way, without guns sometimes with dogs.
I am unable to do this in my older age, it's a younger man's game, it's good to see that people are still trying.
> I am unable to do this in my older age, it's a younger man's game, it's good to see that people are still trying.
You're on a site called Hacker News.
Get 3 more old dudes, develop a whistling protocol, and box that reindeer in!
You're on a site called Hacker News.
Get 3 more old dudes, develop a whistling protocol, and box that reindeer in!
The tarahumara in northern Mexico are famous for running very long distances (men and women have won several ultramarathons, often running with handmade sandals), they are also known for hunting deer by running them to exhaustion (more for fun and tradition than anything else, they have access to rifles)
I first became aware of persistence hunting, by seeing this BBC Earth documentary[0], in which three men track and hunt an Kudu for 8 hours.
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
Not sure why, but I thought the podcast was "thisdeveloperslife.com" which made the title even more interesting as I had no idea why developers would be out chasing an antelope in the desert. Though, maybe it would explain what happened to the podcast.
I know of one hunter-gatherer tribe that does this.
1. They start by learning how to track animals so well that they can identify an individual from among a herd's tracks. (in other words, crazy, crazy good)
2. Long before the hunt, they bury water in ostrich eggs under strategic trees
3. They then throw a rock at some antelope which then flee in panic.
4. Track the juciest individual (this is key - you have to chase the same animal for days on end)
5. Repeat rock throwing, individual tracking, and strategic water drinking until the animal's muscles stop working. Then you get it with an arrow.
1. They start by learning how to track animals so well that they can identify an individual from among a herd's tracks. (in other words, crazy, crazy good)
2. Long before the hunt, they bury water in ostrich eggs under strategic trees
3. They then throw a rock at some antelope which then flee in panic.
4. Track the juciest individual (this is key - you have to chase the same animal for days on end)
5. Repeat rock throwing, individual tracking, and strategic water drinking until the animal's muscles stop working. Then you get it with an arrow.
Why not just shoot it with an arrow or are they glutton for punishment?
I’m not clear on this.
Perhaps I’m wrong about the arrow in step 5 and they really don’t have arrows in the first place, killing the animal with a knife.
Or perhaps they can’t get close enough with their arrows on day 1. Some of these antelope are really large and aggressive - you wouldn’t want to wound one.
Perhaps I’m wrong about the arrow in step 5 and they really don’t have arrows in the first place, killing the animal with a knife.
Or perhaps they can’t get close enough with their arrows on day 1. Some of these antelope are really large and aggressive - you wouldn’t want to wound one.
In the video I saw, the guy did the killing blow with a stone knife.
Honestly. Hide in bush, shoot the animal with that arrow previously mentioned.
That seems much better?
That seems much better?
Much easier if you’re closer to beast and it is tired. For instance, if we wanted to catch chicken as child we had to first tie it to tree so that we wouldn’t miss and then shoot it with bow and arrow. Otherwise you miss too much and arrow gets blunt. You want to maximize arrow usage because it’s hard to make.
"Hide in bush" doesn't work particularly well unless you have a way to mask your scent from the target.
Scott Carrier is one of my favorite This American Life contributors. His delivery is so unusual and captivating.
If you like this episode, you should check out the episode dedicated to Scott Carrier stories: "The Friendly Man."
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/181/the-friendly-man
If you like this episode, you should check out the episode dedicated to Scott Carrier stories: "The Friendly Man."
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/181/the-friendly-man
I was driving in Chicago late at night when this show first aired. I was so engrossed in the story I ended up in Wisconsin.
I did that with S town. I missed a wedding. . . .
World's second fastest animal.
Haha I tried this once. Was very unsuccessful.
Anyone have a tldr on the antelope chase?
I did the boring thing and put the transcript in ChatGPT (but at least the summary makes me want to listen to the episode even more... Maybe there should be different summaries for different people to pick out the things that interest you):
The story about the antelope, featured in This American Life, follows Scott Carrier and his brother's attempt to prove a theory that humans evolved to be endurance runners, capable of outrunning animals like pronghorn antelope over long distances. Scott's brother, a biology student, hypothesizes that early humans could have run down big game without weapons by relying on their endurance rather than speed.
In the 1980s, they go to Wyoming to test this theory by attempting to chase down antelope in the desert. The idea is to exhaust the antelope by making them run in the heat for a long period. Despite their efforts, the antelope consistently outmaneuver and outrun them, blending into herds and splitting into different directions, making it impossible to follow just one.
Scott reflects on the challenges of the endeavor, the limitations of modern life, and the connection to a primitive way of living. Despite failing to catch an antelope, the story highlights the persistence of the human spirit and the desire to understand our ancient origins.
The story about the antelope, featured in This American Life, follows Scott Carrier and his brother's attempt to prove a theory that humans evolved to be endurance runners, capable of outrunning animals like pronghorn antelope over long distances. Scott's brother, a biology student, hypothesizes that early humans could have run down big game without weapons by relying on their endurance rather than speed.
In the 1980s, they go to Wyoming to test this theory by attempting to chase down antelope in the desert. The idea is to exhaust the antelope by making them run in the heat for a long period. Despite their efforts, the antelope consistently outmaneuver and outrun them, blending into herds and splitting into different directions, making it impossible to follow just one.
Scott reflects on the challenges of the endeavor, the limitations of modern life, and the connection to a primitive way of living. Despite failing to catch an antelope, the story highlights the persistence of the human spirit and the desire to understand our ancient origins.
But.. wouldn’t you mark your target with a dye pack? In the past i assume you'd spear your target then hunt it down?
That would be spear hunting. Endurance hunting is where you jog steadily after a faster animal, never allowing it to catch its breath and cool off, until it collapses from exhaustion.
Humans have the best long-distance endurance of any land animal in the world, at least in hot dry environments; it's why we have so little hair and so many sweat glands, among other things. There are still African savanna tribes that successfully practice endurance hunting.
Humans have the best long-distance endurance of any land animal in the world, at least in hot dry environments; it's why we have so little hair and so many sweat glands, among other things. There are still African savanna tribes that successfully practice endurance hunting.
Endurance and spear hunting are not mutually exclusive techniques, they are the same. The African tribes that endurance hunt use spears to make the kill. It's quite difficult to get within spear striking distance of an antelope without a long chase.
I have read that ostriches can outrun humans as they have a much better running economy due to being able to store more elastic energy in their steps.
This is probably true but ostriches are also one of the few two legged runners on the planet.
Say, isn't this is the opposite of the conclusion of the article?
No idea, since the "article" is an hour-long podcast with no option to read it.
But I'd venture to guess that "Scott Carrier is incapable of running down an antelope" does not imply "humans are incapable of endurance hunting, full stop."
But I'd venture to guess that "Scott Carrier is incapable of running down an antelope" does not imply "humans are incapable of endurance hunting, full stop."
No. The podcast focuses more on the fact that a lot of it is just very difficult for people adapted to modern life.
It involves a lot of skills that need to be honed (tracking, long distance jogging, planning, coordination without tech, herding, not getting injured by other wildlife in the process, etc) and it requires strategic planning ahead of time.
It's not to say that it's impossible, just that it's a skill that takes over a decade (part time) to do in a way that you have a decent chance of succeeding at. If however this was all you did day in and day out and you had someone experienced guiding you through the process each day, it'd probably take half the time and you'd be successful at the end.
It involves a lot of skills that need to be honed (tracking, long distance jogging, planning, coordination without tech, herding, not getting injured by other wildlife in the process, etc) and it requires strategic planning ahead of time.
It's not to say that it's impossible, just that it's a skill that takes over a decade (part time) to do in a way that you have a decent chance of succeeding at. If however this was all you did day in and day out and you had someone experienced guiding you through the process each day, it'd probably take half the time and you'd be successful at the end.
TL;DR TL;DR They have been failing so far: they haven't caught a single sntelope.
I find it really interesting that this concept took hold so strongly in people's imaginations. I think because it's just on the border of plausibility and seems somehow to be hidden knowledge. It reminds me of Dan Luu's idea of 'Cocktail Party Ideas' [0]
Edit: Of course I appreciate someone putting the idea to the test!
[0] https://danluu.com/cocktail-ideas/
Edit: Of course I appreciate someone putting the idea to the test!
[0] https://danluu.com/cocktail-ideas/
If you're saying that this proves endurance hunting is a myth, you should know that there are real live people who practice it today, and you can find at least one of them on YouTube.
This comment discusses what some of those people do differently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41241490
This comment discusses what some of those people do differently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41241490
I'm not saying it's a myth, I'd say my position is -
1. It's plausible that some humans somewhere might have used it, however 2. It's unlikely any group of humans used this for a meaningful amount of their caloric intake
The point of my previous comment was that I find it interesting that it seems to have taken an oversized mindshare in people's beliefs around the evolution of humans. I'm interested in why that might be. I suspect because it has a slightly unexpected twist that while we're not fantastic at running, we are (allegedly) good at long-distance running.
1. It's plausible that some humans somewhere might have used it, however 2. It's unlikely any group of humans used this for a meaningful amount of their caloric intake
The point of my previous comment was that I find it interesting that it seems to have taken an oversized mindshare in people's beliefs around the evolution of humans. I'm interested in why that might be. I suspect because it has a slightly unexpected twist that while we're not fantastic at running, we are (allegedly) good at long-distance running.
> we are (allegedly) good at long-distance running.
Whatever the evolutionary reasons for it, I don't think we can reasonably dispute that humans are pretty good at long-distance running.
Whatever the evolutionary reasons for it, I don't think we can reasonably dispute that humans are pretty good at long-distance running.
You're right, I shouldn't have qualified it
I never believed this "Humans are the best endurance hunters" story. It seemed just too pat with no data to back it up but just suppositions/rumours/stories to bolster it during retellings.
Humans have always hunted using the Stalk, Ambush, Injure and Track (with luck involved) process.
See The Persistent Myth of Persistence Hunting - https://undark.org/2019/10/03/persistent-myth-persistence-hu...
Wikipedia's Endurance running hypothesis entry points to criticisms under the "Academic Discourse" section - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_running_hypothesis
Humans have always hunted using the Stalk, Ambush, Injure and Track (with luck involved) process.
See The Persistent Myth of Persistence Hunting - https://undark.org/2019/10/03/persistent-myth-persistence-hu...
Wikipedia's Endurance running hypothesis entry points to criticisms under the "Academic Discourse" section - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_running_hypothesis
How do you explain video evidence of it in modern times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
That is not evidence (in the scientific sense) but a narrative created for TV from many viewpoints. Whether this scene omitted crucial factors (eg. replenishing/resupplying the hunters, whether the animal was injured, whether this was a one-off/outlier/staged etc.) as has been proven in similar other videos/movies (see for example https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/a-long-running-myth/ and https://afan.ottenheimer.com/articles/myth_of_persistent_hun...) is not known. There are just too many questions to take this at face value.
The video showcases the San people. They have hunted like this for countless generations. You can even see an 1892 illustration of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_people#/media/File:Wanderi...
This paper quotes at least 9 documented Kalahari hunts: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472...
Another: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260135266_Persisten...
Here's an Aussie using the technique on feral goats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp6aqcJH7Uw
,_North_Kalahari_Desert.jpg){kind=link}
This paper quotes at least 9 documented Kalahari hunts: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472...
Another: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260135266_Persisten...
Here's an Aussie using the technique on feral goats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp6aqcJH7Uw
I am aware of the San people of the Kalahari (the articles i have linked to mentions them) and tales of their Persistence Hunting technique since they are the poster child for this myth. You should also checkout the various relevant papers linked to from my article links.
Regarding any "evidence" we have to be careful that it is scientifically valid i.e. done in presence of a impartial observer taking into account a) the terrain b) any support for food/water c) whether it is the norm in the group or not d) whether it was staged etc.
Thus saying "They have hunted like this for countless generations" is myth and not evidence. The "9 documented Kalahari hunts" were "9 reports" based on which the authors wrote the paper and are not a large enough dataset. If true, It almost seems like it was done on demand and not that it is the norm amongst them. It also requires a flat savannah type terrain like the Kalahari. All "video evidence" are suspect unless proven otherwise.
Read the articles i had linked to earlier and then these links/papers (linked to from the above articles)
1) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472... by Bunn & Pickering -
However, our understanding of the paleoenvironment, paleoecology, and archaeology of early Homo sites, reviewed here, makes us dubious about their further suggestion that ER might have been employed regularly and successfully in service of that foraging pursuit. We are reluctant to assign to early Homo...
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_running_hypothesis#A... -
Small changes in joint morphology may indicate neutral evolutionary processes rather than selection ... Most of those proposed traits have not been tested for their effect on walking and running efficiency ... Relative lower-limb length has a slightly larger effect on the economy of walking than running. The heel-down foot posture makes walking economical but does not benefit running ... hindlimb proposed traits were already present in Australopithecus or early Homo. Those hindlimb characteristics most likely evolved to improve walking efficiency with improved running as a by-product ... The data suggests that the large size of the gluteus maximus reflects multiple roles during rapid and powerful movements rather than a specific adaptation to submaximal endurance running.
3) One early famous film The Hunters (1958) which depicted the "persistence hunt" of a giraffe was later admitted to be a fake. From https://afan.ottenheimer.com/articles/myth_of_persistent_hun...
What did he admit to?
That the film was shot over years with different San, with different giraffes, that the poisoned arrow was shot from a moving jeep, the San were riding in the filmmaker's jeep chasing the giraffe, and that the San returned to base camp each night because "without the reassurance of the supplies in his Jeep, the Ju/’hoansi might not have been prepared to pursue the giraffe for as long as five days since they could have died of thirst out in the middle of the Kalahari." Some have also suspected that the giraffe was taking so long to die that it was shot with a gun to get that final dramatic collapse on film. But, by the time these issues were admitted ... the film had ingrained itself into the mindset of the public having "learned" that early humans' evolution of endurance helped them to become top of the food chain.
Later it was found that MANY infotainment nature films did similar things because they were more interested in captivating the audience than telling an honest story.
Also from the above link;
To Summarize: The persistent hunting theory would need to have the following evidence to support the theory.
1. The fossil records should show humans' tool damage on prey fossils before animal damage on those same fossils.
2. A review of other hunted animals that supports this "sweat vs panting" theory.
3. An analysis of human energy expenditure vs prey animal energy expenditure that shows humans are better in long distance running/endurance.
4. An scientific experiment showing a human successfully doing a persistent hunt to chase down an animal like this to exhaustion with nothing but stone-age tools.
Unfortunately for the persistent hunting theory and Lieberman's paper:
1. None of this evidence was presented in these papers.
2. Subsequent studies have shown that each one of these claims fails.
For each of the above points the author provides links and details (under "The Evidence" section) which you can checkout.
Regarding any "evidence" we have to be careful that it is scientifically valid i.e. done in presence of a impartial observer taking into account a) the terrain b) any support for food/water c) whether it is the norm in the group or not d) whether it was staged etc.
Thus saying "They have hunted like this for countless generations" is myth and not evidence. The "9 documented Kalahari hunts" were "9 reports" based on which the authors wrote the paper and are not a large enough dataset. If true, It almost seems like it was done on demand and not that it is the norm amongst them. It also requires a flat savannah type terrain like the Kalahari. All "video evidence" are suspect unless proven otherwise.
Read the articles i had linked to earlier and then these links/papers (linked to from the above articles)
1) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472... by Bunn & Pickering -
However, our understanding of the paleoenvironment, paleoecology, and archaeology of early Homo sites, reviewed here, makes us dubious about their further suggestion that ER might have been employed regularly and successfully in service of that foraging pursuit. We are reluctant to assign to early Homo...
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_running_hypothesis#A... -
Small changes in joint morphology may indicate neutral evolutionary processes rather than selection ... Most of those proposed traits have not been tested for their effect on walking and running efficiency ... Relative lower-limb length has a slightly larger effect on the economy of walking than running. The heel-down foot posture makes walking economical but does not benefit running ... hindlimb proposed traits were already present in Australopithecus or early Homo. Those hindlimb characteristics most likely evolved to improve walking efficiency with improved running as a by-product ... The data suggests that the large size of the gluteus maximus reflects multiple roles during rapid and powerful movements rather than a specific adaptation to submaximal endurance running.
3) One early famous film The Hunters (1958) which depicted the "persistence hunt" of a giraffe was later admitted to be a fake. From https://afan.ottenheimer.com/articles/myth_of_persistent_hun...
What did he admit to?
That the film was shot over years with different San, with different giraffes, that the poisoned arrow was shot from a moving jeep, the San were riding in the filmmaker's jeep chasing the giraffe, and that the San returned to base camp each night because "without the reassurance of the supplies in his Jeep, the Ju/’hoansi might not have been prepared to pursue the giraffe for as long as five days since they could have died of thirst out in the middle of the Kalahari." Some have also suspected that the giraffe was taking so long to die that it was shot with a gun to get that final dramatic collapse on film. But, by the time these issues were admitted ... the film had ingrained itself into the mindset of the public having "learned" that early humans' evolution of endurance helped them to become top of the food chain.
Later it was found that MANY infotainment nature films did similar things because they were more interested in captivating the audience than telling an honest story.
Also from the above link;
To Summarize: The persistent hunting theory would need to have the following evidence to support the theory.
1. The fossil records should show humans' tool damage on prey fossils before animal damage on those same fossils.
2. A review of other hunted animals that supports this "sweat vs panting" theory.
3. An analysis of human energy expenditure vs prey animal energy expenditure that shows humans are better in long distance running/endurance.
4. An scientific experiment showing a human successfully doing a persistent hunt to chase down an animal like this to exhaustion with nothing but stone-age tools.
Unfortunately for the persistent hunting theory and Lieberman's paper:
1. None of this evidence was presented in these papers.
2. Subsequent studies have shown that each one of these claims fails.
For each of the above points the author provides links and details (under "The Evidence" section) which you can checkout.