Retiring from the idea of retirement(candost.blog)
candost.blog
Retiring from the idea of retirement
https://candost.blog/retiring-from-the-idea-of-retirement/
107 comments
I'm a software developer myself and had a rude awakening into the life of someone who loves what they do but can't do it due to a physical limitation recently. I'm lucky that It is fixable and I'm in the process but it makes me dread a time when I have something that can't be fixed.
I developed Cubital tunnel syndrome in both elbows which leads to extreme numbness and pain in my pinky, ring finger wrist, elbow and top of the hand when doing any activity requiring using my hands or bending elbow for even small minutes of time. Luckily I can get surgery for it, but I've still had to wait this long going through months of other prevention measures that didn't work at all before I was finally allowed to consider it.
Even though its only been 6 months, its been an extremely depressing ride not being physically able to do basic daily things including my job and passion of developing/learning about development without pain.
Its made me scared for the day when I wont be able to do this and many other things anymore since even just this short 6 months has been a rude awakening into the life of someone dealing with extreme pain in just daily life, and sympathize for people who are going through the same things.
For many people "retiring" doing what they love just is not possible.
I developed Cubital tunnel syndrome in both elbows which leads to extreme numbness and pain in my pinky, ring finger wrist, elbow and top of the hand when doing any activity requiring using my hands or bending elbow for even small minutes of time. Luckily I can get surgery for it, but I've still had to wait this long going through months of other prevention measures that didn't work at all before I was finally allowed to consider it.
Even though its only been 6 months, its been an extremely depressing ride not being physically able to do basic daily things including my job and passion of developing/learning about development without pain.
Its made me scared for the day when I wont be able to do this and many other things anymore since even just this short 6 months has been a rude awakening into the life of someone dealing with extreme pain in just daily life, and sympathize for people who are going through the same things.
For many people "retiring" doing what they love just is not possible.
Never used this but have seen talon recommended
https://talonvoice.com/
hoping you recover soon
https://talonvoice.com/
hoping you recover soon
I had pinched ulnaris nerve in both elbows a few years ago. The symptoms were pretty much the same as you describe. It took two operations and more than a year to recover. The symptoms started to creep back this year, probably because I started to hit the keyboard more. Luckily I found a book about trigger points [1] and releasing the triceps trigger points, especially #3 removes the symptoms. The book is godsend; I've found help from it to so many other issues too.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-Therapy-Workbook-Self-T...
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-Therapy-Workbook-Self-T...
I used to think I would work until I died or was unable to work.
I now realize that it would be nice to retire, so that I can work on the things that I want to (which in my case would be open source projects) instead of what my employer tells me to.
You could argue if I was self employed, I could do that now, but that would mean I have to worry about finding people to pay me for my work (as a contractor or freelancer) or running a business (as a founder). And I have zero interest in doing that.
I now realize that it would be nice to retire, so that I can work on the things that I want to (which in my case would be open source projects) instead of what my employer tells me to.
You could argue if I was self employed, I could do that now, but that would mean I have to worry about finding people to pay me for my work (as a contractor or freelancer) or running a business (as a founder). And I have zero interest in doing that.
you can also work part time for food and shelter and spend the rest of your time doing what you enjoy!
Not easily. There aren't a lot of part-time software development jobs. And working part time typically means giving up benefits like health insurance (at least in the US).
100% this. I've also been thinking about going part time SWE, but I just haven't seen any. You can try freelancing part time, but that's not for everyone. The best bet is to get creative and go work for a large co where you can slack off part time. Maybe try joining as a junior. You can get the job done fast as senior , take the lower salary and get back some freedom. Seems fair to me.
I continue to be amazed by the land of the free.
You could also build software for fun, ie contribute to open source.
However remember that there are several other disabilities that can occur as you age. I know several people who developed Alzheimer's or MS around their 60’s. There is no way they could work a programming job today.
However remember that there are several other disabilities that can occur as you age. I know several people who developed Alzheimer's or MS around their 60’s. There is no way they could work a programming job today.
Developing MS at age 60 is nothing, they may or may never have relapses. I have had MS since age 21, with thankfully only one relapse, so far.
contributing to open source isn't fun. it sucks. it might be good for your career but it is developing software in the most hostile environment for the most entitled users
I have a side project. wanna see the code? you can't! screw you it's mine!
also MS is a wildly different disease than Alzheimer's. many women especially develop MS in their twenties and it is not always progressive and it is certainly not life ending like Alzheimer's
spreading this kind of misinformation about MS makes it difficult for sufferers to find work if their disability is visible because their level of disability can be assumed to be greater than it really is. MS is extremely variable from one person to the next.
I have a side project. wanna see the code? you can't! screw you it's mine!
also MS is a wildly different disease than Alzheimer's. many women especially develop MS in their twenties and it is not always progressive and it is certainly not life ending like Alzheimer's
spreading this kind of misinformation about MS makes it difficult for sufferers to find work if their disability is visible because their level of disability can be assumed to be greater than it really is. MS is extremely variable from one person to the next.
> I have a side project. wanna see the code? you can't! screw you it's mine!
Lol. Are you ok?
> MS is a wildly different disease than Alzheimer's.
They didn’t say it is the same disease. They said “I know several people who developed Alzheimer's or MS around their 60’s.” Which is while not the typical age MS appears it can still certainly happen. (It even has a specific name to describe it. Late-Onset Multiple Sclerosis)
Lol. Are you ok?
> MS is a wildly different disease than Alzheimer's.
They didn’t say it is the same disease. They said “I know several people who developed Alzheimer's or MS around their 60’s.” Which is while not the typical age MS appears it can still certainly happen. (It even has a specific name to describe it. Late-Onset Multiple Sclerosis)
Do people really enjoy this industry that much? I get the feeling we have a lot of outspoken people who write a lot but almost everyone I’ve ever met is trying to get the fuck out. They want to get their payday and FIRE. They’re not interested in staying if they have the financial means to leave. Part of the distaste for the job and industry is what I think fuels the FIRE movement being so full of tech workers. If you’re in medicine or law or finance, you can do the same but you never hear of FIRE anywhere near the same level in those industries.
My friends in finance don't have a management chain 4+ levels deep and idiot product managers and product marketers calling the shots.
Most people I know love the craft, but hate the industry.
Most people I know love the craft, but hate the industry.
Yeah, I think my frustrations have much more to do with the environment than coding or whatever. I don’t spend a ton of time coding and so my frustrations naturally are abundant.
I think a lot of finance these days is kinda bullshit though. My friends in NYC who are in finance and making a killing (easily making more than faang engineer comp) are barely working and seem to be happy with their jobs. What a joke it is to be in the tech industry when you’re also working one of the lowest social status jobs on top of being ground into dust.
I wish I had chosen a different career.
I think a lot of finance these days is kinda bullshit though. My friends in NYC who are in finance and making a killing (easily making more than faang engineer comp) are barely working and seem to be happy with their jobs. What a joke it is to be in the tech industry when you’re also working one of the lowest social status jobs on top of being ground into dust.
I wish I had chosen a different career.
I resonate with this, unfortunately. I wish things in our field were better.
Personally I've enjoyed it a lot, at points, mostly when I'm permitted to keep my head down and build useful things or meaningfully improve existing things.
That said, I'm based in the UK so I don't think FIRE* is so prevalent here, because our salaries are much lower and there are barely any opportunities for a big payday compared to the US. I make 2x the median UK salary as a lead dev and live in a fairly low cost of living area, but that only puts me at the same salary as a junior dev in much of the US. I'm not paying my mortgage off any time soon.
* Financial Independence, Retire Early for anyone wondering—I had to look it up as I wasn't familiar with the term
That said, I'm based in the UK so I don't think FIRE* is so prevalent here, because our salaries are much lower and there are barely any opportunities for a big payday compared to the US. I make 2x the median UK salary as a lead dev and live in a fairly low cost of living area, but that only puts me at the same salary as a junior dev in much of the US. I'm not paying my mortgage off any time soon.
* Financial Independence, Retire Early for anyone wondering—I had to look it up as I wasn't familiar with the term
The industry? Meh, not so much, as other sibling comments elaborate on. But the work? Oh, I do/did love the work. I retired in May, after like 35 years in software. I've been programming computing machinery since I got my Atari 800 back in, what, 1981? I still enjoy even in retirement, as just this morning I was wondering how to automate around a limitation of Square's offering for a non-profit I help out with. And as I was pondering that, I found myself looking forward to doing the work, 'cuz puzzle-solving, amirite?
But the industry? I'd bet one of my old paychecks that there are plenty of doctors and lawyers that will say the same thing: "love the work, hate the industry". Because MBAs didn't just ruin software development, you know.
But the industry? I'd bet one of my old paychecks that there are plenty of doctors and lawyers that will say the same thing: "love the work, hate the industry". Because MBAs didn't just ruin software development, you know.
Usually because medicine, law, and finance comes with huge student debt. There's also a certain level of prestige expected with those profession that it seems par for the course to buy a $1M house, a car with a 6 figure price tag, etc. Those two things probably make FIRE hard to fathom for most of those people.
They can come with large debt but it's not guaranteed. The one thing I will say though is that you typically do need to go to a more prestigious university.
Also, tech is no exception to the expensive lifestyle. It's basically a requirement of living in Silicon Valley. Crap homes in Santa Clara are averaging $2.5m right now. People still plan to FIRE in the bay area.
Also, tech is no exception to the expensive lifestyle. It's basically a requirement of living in Silicon Valley. Crap homes in Santa Clara are averaging $2.5m right now. People still plan to FIRE in the bay area.
That's my point. Techies lived an expensive lifestyle not by choice. Now that we have remote work, how many have left to lower cost of living areas? Most of us are not driven by prestige and because of that we're a lot more amenable to FIRE.
Remote work is not that common still. All the return to office mandates should make that clear…
The Bay Area still is attracting tens of thousands of immigrants from across the world every year. I have not seen any big difference in population within the bay for tech workers. If I saw any big migration - it was that all the single men have been trying to get to NYC. There is a massive amount of single men in SF that are trying to get to the NYC offices for nearly every big tech company right now. Everyone finally got sick and tired of how hard it is to meet women in SF. The ratio is obscene. (33-50% more single men than women depending on your subregion of SFBA)
The Bay Area still is attracting tens of thousands of immigrants from across the world every year. I have not seen any big difference in population within the bay for tech workers. If I saw any big migration - it was that all the single men have been trying to get to NYC. There is a massive amount of single men in SF that are trying to get to the NYC offices for nearly every big tech company right now. Everyone finally got sick and tired of how hard it is to meet women in SF. The ratio is obscene. (33-50% more single men than women depending on your subregion of SFBA)
> the passionate artist who isn't actually very good
Your point stands even if said artist is good but can’t network. Hannah Gadsby makes that point about van Gogh in Nannette¹: people actively avoided him, so he didn’t find success in life.
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Gadsby#Nanette
Your point stands even if said artist is good but can’t network. Hannah Gadsby makes that point about van Gogh in Nannette¹: people actively avoided him, so he didn’t find success in life.
¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Gadsby#Nanette
There's an important point to consider that might align with the author. Maybe you shouldn't "work work work, retire".
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7307664/
"Early retirement was not associated with a higher risk of mortality. On-time retirement was associated with a higher risk of mortality, which might reflect the healthy worker effect."
(but it also says "It is important to consider information on prior health and demographics when studying the association between retirement and mortality to avoid biased findings.")
I kind of suspect it might be imagination and realistic planning.
You should imagine retirement early and if you can't afford it, try to mentally do it. and then transition while staying happy and healthy.
If you work work work, then "retire", you might just jump into the laz-y-boy at retirement, become comfortable, less active and adopt unhealthy habits.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7307664/
"Early retirement was not associated with a higher risk of mortality. On-time retirement was associated with a higher risk of mortality, which might reflect the healthy worker effect."
(but it also says "It is important to consider information on prior health and demographics when studying the association between retirement and mortality to avoid biased findings.")
I kind of suspect it might be imagination and realistic planning.
You should imagine retirement early and if you can't afford it, try to mentally do it. and then transition while staying happy and healthy.
If you work work work, then "retire", you might just jump into the laz-y-boy at retirement, become comfortable, less active and adopt unhealthy habits.
I am the author and I am very much aware of my privileges. I also know that I am writing these things not to everyone out there but to people like me.
That said, I am also aware of my privileged situation can change anytime. That’s why I am focusing on what I can do to cover myself if I lose these privileges while I still have them. Most probably, I don’t know and not aware of a lot of things as well and I am willing to figure out on the way, lose something, earn something else, but never give up.
> I don't even really want to be doing it now.
This sentence is what exactly I want to avoid in my life.
That said, I am also aware of my privileged situation can change anytime. That’s why I am focusing on what I can do to cover myself if I lose these privileges while I still have them. Most probably, I don’t know and not aware of a lot of things as well and I am willing to figure out on the way, lose something, earn something else, but never give up.
> I don't even really want to be doing it now.
This sentence is what exactly I want to avoid in my life.
How do you see our profession evolving until and past your retirement age? Are you not worried that, besides the LLM revolution (and whatever comes next), ageism will cause you to be out of a job at say 60 at the latest?
We can safely say that nobody can predict how our profession will evolve. I don't want to assume I will stay in this profession forever. I currently love my profession and am trying my best to do it well and learn the fields close to my field (like psychology or philosophy). On the other hand, I'm doing other things I enjoy (like writing on my blog), although they don't bring any income. However, writing is a skill I can learn, grow, and become an income in the future (if I enjoy doing it professionally).
I'm worried that not only ageism but also a sudden accident or any other sickness can put me out of a job. That's exactly what I meant by "have enough savings to cover detours during the journey." That's why I used to "only" word in, "Instead of relying only on forty years of commitment to retirement schemes, ..." I still have retirement and government support to cover my problems up to a certain point. However, it's up to me to make the journey safer by investing according to my goal.
I'm worried that not only ageism but also a sudden accident or any other sickness can put me out of a job. That's exactly what I meant by "have enough savings to cover detours during the journey." That's why I used to "only" word in, "Instead of relying only on forty years of commitment to retirement schemes, ..." I still have retirement and government support to cover my problems up to a certain point. However, it's up to me to make the journey safer by investing according to my goal.
Ageism is not death. Just a bump in the road.
I am well past 60. For the first 30 odd years I was an individual contributor in both programming and system administration and manager of the same.
When one of the financial crises and ageism ended my management career, I went back to school and switched fields. After a few years I got the chance to teach new computer support professionals in vocational program. I have been doing that for 15 years.
As a side note for ageism "victims" our school is growing and is struggling to find enough competent teachers (Window/Linux Admin, Database, Scripting, Networking, VMs, Cloud, Mobile devices...).
Check out your local vocational programs. You can find permanent or bridge work teaching at this level. Usually industry experience is more important for these jobs than a teaching degree.
I am well past 60. For the first 30 odd years I was an individual contributor in both programming and system administration and manager of the same.
When one of the financial crises and ageism ended my management career, I went back to school and switched fields. After a few years I got the chance to teach new computer support professionals in vocational program. I have been doing that for 15 years.
As a side note for ageism "victims" our school is growing and is struggling to find enough competent teachers (Window/Linux Admin, Database, Scripting, Networking, VMs, Cloud, Mobile devices...).
Check out your local vocational programs. You can find permanent or bridge work teaching at this level. Usually industry experience is more important for these jobs than a teaching degree.
If the 'LLM revolution' proves to be as effective and scary as you imply, a motivated 85 year old coder could easily hide their identity behind whatever deepfaked voice/video/photo/text identity they choose and never be revealed to be aged
>ageism will cause you to be out of a job at say 60 at the latest?
Do you feel like you'll be much less productive at 60? Why would you work for a company that thinks that way? Can you no longer solve business problems by that age? We have 80 year old politicians, so I'd hope not.
Do you feel like you'll be much less productive at 60? Why would you work for a company that thinks that way? Can you no longer solve business problems by that age? We have 80 year old politicians, so I'd hope not.
It’s hard to overstate how much I want to see this topic the same way as you do. I think, so far, I’ve only become more productive, and I don’t feel the cynicism that many seem to acquire past a certain age (“all frameworks are just the same”, “wheel is reinvented all the time” etc - I have a more nuanced view on this). I’m not really worried about my productivity at 60, but that the market will favor cheaper, superficially quicker-minded folks, who tend to be young.
No the reason why they want young people is not speed.
Managers hate mature people because they are a lot harder to command. You also run into the problem of someone being more qualified than their superior. I work in healthcare and seeing a child manager clash with a 60 year old nurse never stops being hilarious.
Managers hate mature people because they are a lot harder to command. You also run into the problem of someone being more qualified than their superior. I work in healthcare and seeing a child manager clash with a 60 year old nurse never stops being hilarious.
I'll be 60 in a couple of weeks time (I hate typing that - get off my lawn etc!). I know I'm not less productive now than I was 10, 20, 30 years ago. Maybe a bit more cynical - but then I can hide that with humour.
The one think I do feel strongly is that my current FTE job is my last one. Ageism is a real issue, when it comes to finding a job in tech when you're in your 50s; running the recruitment race in my 60s is not something I want to face. Which means I feel like I've lost the chance to walk away from my current job if anything goes wrong.
I get my pension in 7 years time: I'm looking forward to it already!
The one think I do feel strongly is that my current FTE job is my last one. Ageism is a real issue, when it comes to finding a job in tech when you're in your 50s; running the recruitment race in my 60s is not something I want to face. Which means I feel like I've lost the chance to walk away from my current job if anything goes wrong.
I get my pension in 7 years time: I'm looking forward to it already!
I have first hand experience with this.I am late 50s and still at top of my game in my area of expertise. It was time to move on from last job last year and had zero interest from anyone. All through my network so no cold calls either. I know for a fact those positions were filled with late 30s mid 40s people.
So my answer was luckily i retired. The interesting thing is after being in tech for 35-40 years i have no interest in any of it now. Hell after 3 weeks of retirement i didnt. I have a small farm now and play with tractors and such all day.
So my answer was luckily i retired. The interesting thing is after being in tech for 35-40 years i have no interest in any of it now. Hell after 3 weeks of retirement i didnt. I have a small farm now and play with tractors and such all day.
It doesnt matter what you feel. It matters what your employer or customers feel.
Unless you are super lucky to have own company and own product(s).
Unless you are super lucky to have own company and own product(s).
> We have 80 year old politicians,
are they any good? or do we pray for their passing so that more progressive policies can be considered?
are they any good? or do we pray for their passing so that more progressive policies can be considered?
[deleted]
No true Scotsman - Joe Biden is old, but plenty of young conservatives are far, far less likely to enact any progressive legislation. People age in lots of different ways, some people will face dementia in their 60s, others will be lucid into their 90s and beyond.
From what I observe of 80+ year old politicians, I find that to be more an argument in favor of ageism rather than against it.
Fair enough, it sounds like perhaps I misjudged your intent and I'm sorry to have implied any ignorance on your part. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Thanks for taking the time to read and share your thoughts. It’s good to hear other’s challenges on my words so I can reflect on how my sentences sound on other people’s minds.
Funny I very rarely see anyone older than 40 in the IT industry. Where are these happy 70 year old coders hiding?
At home because no one wants to hire them over age discrimination.
Working on COBOL in a fortune 500 company.
Interests can change
The OP is 30 years away from retirement yet is posting on how to do it right... That's bold.
For me, retirement is imminent (I'm 67), but I can't imagine how ugly those prospects would look now if I'd not prepared for decades. Leaving a career with no income stream other than $35k/year in Social Security means you must continue working in whatever diminished role is available to you at age 70+. If that sounds bad to you, well, you got it right.
In the US, that would probably be working on your feet in a minimum wage role ($25k/year), with inadequate health insurance (Medicare A with Medicaid, if your state offers the latter), living in a low end apartment or mobile home, with declining health. In short, without substantial preparation, life after retirement will _suck_. I wouldn't wish it on an enemy. But this is exactly where 30-40% of Americans will be after 65 since they were unable (or unwise) to prepare for the final 20 years of unemployment that inescapably come at the end of life (AKA retirement).
Until some sort of organized coordinated alternative to old-age-demotion comes along, old folks are on their own in America. I recommend that everyone take life post-career deadly seriously long before it happens and prepare for it, or your 'golden years' will eat you alive.
For me, retirement is imminent (I'm 67), but I can't imagine how ugly those prospects would look now if I'd not prepared for decades. Leaving a career with no income stream other than $35k/year in Social Security means you must continue working in whatever diminished role is available to you at age 70+. If that sounds bad to you, well, you got it right.
In the US, that would probably be working on your feet in a minimum wage role ($25k/year), with inadequate health insurance (Medicare A with Medicaid, if your state offers the latter), living in a low end apartment or mobile home, with declining health. In short, without substantial preparation, life after retirement will _suck_. I wouldn't wish it on an enemy. But this is exactly where 30-40% of Americans will be after 65 since they were unable (or unwise) to prepare for the final 20 years of unemployment that inescapably come at the end of life (AKA retirement).
Until some sort of organized coordinated alternative to old-age-demotion comes along, old folks are on their own in America. I recommend that everyone take life post-career deadly seriously long before it happens and prepare for it, or your 'golden years' will eat you alive.
I've generally thought like this, that whatever I'm doing in my life, including my labor should be something I want to do and energizes me. But I can't help but think this is kind of an aristocratic privilege. Someone, A LOT of someone's, most someone's, need to operate the oil rigs, drive the trucks, crew the ships, clean the kitchens, operate the sewage system, work under an organized hierarchy of thousands of people doing a tiny part of a massive function, etc etc etc. Any philosophy that doesn't account for the essential labor of civilization has an unrecoverable problem.
There's somewhat of a internal forum question - nobody wakes up saying "today I want to be a septic engineer" but you can make the decision, to if not enjoy it, at least be good at it and be fulfilled.
Happiness is an internal action and if you depend on external stimuli for it, you're going to be perpetually unhappy.
And the people doing the "low-class/low-respect" jobs are often some of the happiest I meet - most of their complaints aren't about the job but about other things, much of which boils down to money and its consequences.
One aspect of the jobs you listed is that at least you feel you did something; trash got collected, a sewer kept working, a ship moved location.
Many of our "high-pay/high-class" jobs have nothing you can point at at the end of the day - no "I did that" to feel good about.
Happiness is an internal action and if you depend on external stimuli for it, you're going to be perpetually unhappy.
And the people doing the "low-class/low-respect" jobs are often some of the happiest I meet - most of their complaints aren't about the job but about other things, much of which boils down to money and its consequences.
One aspect of the jobs you listed is that at least you feel you did something; trash got collected, a sewer kept working, a ship moved location.
Many of our "high-pay/high-class" jobs have nothing you can point at at the end of the day - no "I did that" to feel good about.
>There's somewhat of a internal forum question - nobody wakes up saying "today I want to be a septic engineer"
about 20+ years ago I was working at a place that made concrete walls or other concrete fixtures, these walls were then taken and shipped around mainly the Western United States but theoretically all over.
Hated the job and I wasn't very good at it, although I got good reports from the supervisors because I was one of the guys who only called in sick once a month, most people, even the illegals were calling in sick at least once per week because it was a really miserable job starting at 5 in the morning in a cold windy area with lots of injuries and sometimes fatalities.
Anyway we got a new guy joining the team, Rory, he was 19 or 20 I think.
And one day we were standing out in the middle of the yard waiting for a big concrete wall to be picked up and brought to us, and I looked over at Rory and he had this big smile on his face and he was almost dancing with excitement and he announced, because evidently he thought I wanted to share, that this was his dream job that he had been dreaming of since he was a little kid.
I probably looked stunned and disgusted as I said something like "really?!?"
Yep, he explained, when he was a kid he would watch the guys working the big construction sites and he thought I want to do that when I grow up!
So what I'm saying is - maybe somebody does grow up thinking "I want to be a septic engineer".
Thinking about it I wanted to design ecologically sound waste disposal systems some years back, so I guess I could have talked about that too.
about 20+ years ago I was working at a place that made concrete walls or other concrete fixtures, these walls were then taken and shipped around mainly the Western United States but theoretically all over.
Hated the job and I wasn't very good at it, although I got good reports from the supervisors because I was one of the guys who only called in sick once a month, most people, even the illegals were calling in sick at least once per week because it was a really miserable job starting at 5 in the morning in a cold windy area with lots of injuries and sometimes fatalities.
Anyway we got a new guy joining the team, Rory, he was 19 or 20 I think.
And one day we were standing out in the middle of the yard waiting for a big concrete wall to be picked up and brought to us, and I looked over at Rory and he had this big smile on his face and he was almost dancing with excitement and he announced, because evidently he thought I wanted to share, that this was his dream job that he had been dreaming of since he was a little kid.
I probably looked stunned and disgusted as I said something like "really?!?"
Yep, he explained, when he was a kid he would watch the guys working the big construction sites and he thought I want to do that when I grow up!
So what I'm saying is - maybe somebody does grow up thinking "I want to be a septic engineer".
Thinking about it I wanted to design ecologically sound waste disposal systems some years back, so I guess I could have talked about that too.
My cousin literally went to school for water filtration stuff, grew up in a family of farmers and worked out graywater solutions for their farms and is now working as a septic engineer, maybe not 100% in the role he wants to do but certainly in the ballpark.
But obviously some jobs are going to be worse than others, but what matters is people's tolerance and increased compensation. People work crazy dangerous jobs on oil rigs because of the pay. They aren't forced to do it. The economics would just rejigger such that harder more necessary jobs pay more while easier jobs pay less. There has already been a shift the past few decades where plumbers and other blue collar jobs are bringing in more attractive salaries by lack of workers, so more kids are choosing those careers now (especially with the stupidity of higher ed costs).
I wouldn't be against plumbers and electricians making more than finance and tech bros. Sounds like a better rebalancing of societal needs, honestly.
But obviously some jobs are going to be worse than others, but what matters is people's tolerance and increased compensation. People work crazy dangerous jobs on oil rigs because of the pay. They aren't forced to do it. The economics would just rejigger such that harder more necessary jobs pay more while easier jobs pay less. There has already been a shift the past few decades where plumbers and other blue collar jobs are bringing in more attractive salaries by lack of workers, so more kids are choosing those careers now (especially with the stupidity of higher ed costs).
I wouldn't be against plumbers and electricians making more than finance and tech bros. Sounds like a better rebalancing of societal needs, honestly.
> Many of our "high-pay/high-class" jobs have nothing you can point at at the end of the day - no "I did that" to feel good about.
What a fantastic take. Actually seeing your labor affect the world in real time. I feel there should be a word for it. Knowledge economy workers are highly trained and skilled, but I've always had the suspicion that many of us have a general malaise that their job is 30% actual work, 30% politicking, 40% justifying your salary because the job is now a part of their personality and raises social status or pays the kids private school tuition.
The obvious outcome is overwork, depression, and in some places - sane people jumping off buildings. I'll claim it's quite rare to find stone masons jumping off cliffs because the job has them at their wits end.
What a fantastic take. Actually seeing your labor affect the world in real time. I feel there should be a word for it. Knowledge economy workers are highly trained and skilled, but I've always had the suspicion that many of us have a general malaise that their job is 30% actual work, 30% politicking, 40% justifying your salary because the job is now a part of their personality and raises social status or pays the kids private school tuition.
The obvious outcome is overwork, depression, and in some places - sane people jumping off buildings. I'll claim it's quite rare to find stone masons jumping off cliffs because the job has them at their wits end.
Not a communist, but Marx called this "alienation", when your labor and the goods / services you produce have less to do with your own life.
It's a bad thing, but I think it's a tradeoff we've had to make for a more efficient economy. Some people want to grow their own food but I'm happy with mechanized farming and big-ass tractors doing it for me while I sit in air conditioning.
It's a bad thing, but I think it's a tradeoff we've had to make for a more efficient economy. Some people want to grow their own food but I'm happy with mechanized farming and big-ass tractors doing it for me while I sit in air conditioning.
"Any philosophy that doesn't account for the essential labor of civilization has an unrecoverable problem" -> True, and here's where I hope increased automation will provide a sustainable and equitable solution. When managing a sewer or drain means programming a robot equipped with sensors and cleaning tools, then cleaning a sewer is no longer something that requires a system that subjugates a set of people to do this unenviable task for low wages.
Yet, social structures persist in many countries and the technology has not achieved sufficient penetration. Ultimately any debate about work or retirement will devolve into politics and why certain sections of people remain poor and unable to get to a position of financial comfort. But talking about UBI, early retirement etc is doubly important because these problems are always dismissed as aristocratic, but the fact is most people suffer from the consequences.
Yet, social structures persist in many countries and the technology has not achieved sufficient penetration. Ultimately any debate about work or retirement will devolve into politics and why certain sections of people remain poor and unable to get to a position of financial comfort. But talking about UBI, early retirement etc is doubly important because these problems are always dismissed as aristocratic, but the fact is most people suffer from the consequences.
> , A LOT of someone's, most someone's, need to operate the oil rigs, drive the trucks, crew the ships, clean the kitchens, operate the sewage system, work under an organized hierarchy of thousands of people doing a tiny part of a massive function,
the market is supposed to pay you a high enough wage until it becomes attractive to spend the time doing it. in fact for some of these jobs, it does.
the market is supposed to pay you a high enough wage until it becomes attractive to spend the time doing it. in fact for some of these jobs, it does.
It's nice to have the choice to continue working and I certainly hope to have that. But not everybody does. And the reality is that a lot of people are kind of worn out and past their prime when they hit retirement age. And if they aren't, a lot of people start having all sorts of health issues that make work a lot less fun and interesting. Strokes, heart issues, Alzheimer's, etc.
These are the things that used to cause people to die relatively quickly but that's no longer the case. My father had a stroke and he might live another 20 years. He's definitely still active but there's no way he'd be doing his former job at this point or at least not at nowhere near the same level.
That's not to say retired people are useless but it does mean you have to be realistic about their ability to earn incomes for very long after they retire. Or more prudently, your own ability. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. Pensions are a form of insurance that is worth having.
With chronic over employment, there is a solid argument for making retirement age more flexible though. Continue working and have more disposable income when you reduce how much you work or eventually retire. The current system is not very flexible and actively disincentivizes people to work beyond a certain age.
My father actually retired early because his employer was downsizing and it was cheaper for them to settle for early retirement than it was to outright fire him. That same arrangement made it completely unattractive for him to find other work. He was being paid to retire, not to take another job. Another job would have eroded his pension. That's a weird incentive. Good for my parents but not necessarily for anything else. But 60 is definitely young to retire like he did. He's 77 now.
These are the things that used to cause people to die relatively quickly but that's no longer the case. My father had a stroke and he might live another 20 years. He's definitely still active but there's no way he'd be doing his former job at this point or at least not at nowhere near the same level.
That's not to say retired people are useless but it does mean you have to be realistic about their ability to earn incomes for very long after they retire. Or more prudently, your own ability. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. Pensions are a form of insurance that is worth having.
With chronic over employment, there is a solid argument for making retirement age more flexible though. Continue working and have more disposable income when you reduce how much you work or eventually retire. The current system is not very flexible and actively disincentivizes people to work beyond a certain age.
My father actually retired early because his employer was downsizing and it was cheaper for them to settle for early retirement than it was to outright fire him. That same arrangement made it completely unattractive for him to find other work. He was being paid to retire, not to take another job. Another job would have eroded his pension. That's a weird incentive. Good for my parents but not necessarily for anything else. But 60 is definitely young to retire like he did. He's 77 now.
Two things. At 65 I'm applying for a job for the first time in 12 years! As a man I have had the luxury of being married to someone with better career prospects than me so I put my career on hold (p.s. there is no such thing - it's dead in the water) to do family things. I've done a great job. I've contributed to society and done it in a selfless way. All those girly things like PTA, cake stalls, committee meetings ... and my peers have thought I really ought to get a job. Well, fuck off is the expression that comes to mind. I am now going to get a job because I am bored, not because I feel I should contribute - I've done that. And I don't think I am exceptional. People get bored and contribute independent of reward. So I'd suggest UBI is the answer to many of our woes. Everyone gets to do what they like doing; if you're indifferent, but like the things money can buy you'll do the crap jobs if they pay enough. What is more, with guaranteed income and proportional tax on other income, businesses would get a few more people willing to work for a "non living wage" - too few hours or too low income to live on, but enough to play the pokies or a good night out. And there would be no need to think about welfare or pensions. Sure a percentage will not lift a finger, but let them. They are a drop in the ocean compared to the "financially independent", the "house wives" and "pensioners" who can already do that if they wanted to.
UBI seems like a method to tell the middle class to not complain that they dont own anything anymore, because they get their (probably pathetic) dole.
I liked making gears. The pay and commute sucked, but it was rewarding knowing that things I helped make would long outlast me. For me, I knew that if I could just hold on until I got social security, all would be well. I'd have lots of time to relax, and not have to worry about money any more.
Then I got long Covid, and was ripped out of the work force in 2020, at 56 years old.
It's no fun having nothing to do, and no purpose. The resonant idea for me from the article is to find your joy outside of work now, while you still have the time to explore the possibilities.
All those things that are totally fun for a weekend off are not sustainable for long term happiness. It's like ice cream... great stuff when you're a kid, and it's a treat... and just ok when you're an adult and could eat it exclusively.
I wish I had engrossing hobbies that could fill my days. I've watched everything interesting on Netflix, Amazon Prime, and YouTube. I played Universal Paperclips through 100 times in a row. I've spent thousands of hours in Factorio. I swore off Reddit when they sold out... so now it's here, twitter, facebook and youtube to occupy my days.
Get out now, find your passions that have nothing to do with work! Don't expect to find them magically when you retire.
Then I got long Covid, and was ripped out of the work force in 2020, at 56 years old.
It's no fun having nothing to do, and no purpose. The resonant idea for me from the article is to find your joy outside of work now, while you still have the time to explore the possibilities.
All those things that are totally fun for a weekend off are not sustainable for long term happiness. It's like ice cream... great stuff when you're a kid, and it's a treat... and just ok when you're an adult and could eat it exclusively.
I wish I had engrossing hobbies that could fill my days. I've watched everything interesting on Netflix, Amazon Prime, and YouTube. I played Universal Paperclips through 100 times in a row. I've spent thousands of hours in Factorio. I swore off Reddit when they sold out... so now it's here, twitter, facebook and youtube to occupy my days.
Get out now, find your passions that have nothing to do with work! Don't expect to find them magically when you retire.
Author sounds young. As you get older your interests may change. I used to really enjoy writing software. 35 years into it, I no longer get any joy or sense of accomplishment. Even when I write new things that result in patents (so don't tell me I need more interesting challenges.)
Now what brings me joy is spending time with my nieces and nephews. This is not a thing that can or should be monetized. I need to build up a retirement so I can truly enjoy the things I care about most in life.
Now what brings me joy is spending time with my nieces and nephews. This is not a thing that can or should be monetized. I need to build up a retirement so I can truly enjoy the things I care about most in life.
I’ll go on a limb and say most people writing articles like this are young, inexperienced, and living in the moment rather than seriously thinking of their future. They think “wow, this is fun, I have no pains, I could do this forever”, but don’t realize yet what that truly means. Of course, I’m still rather young myself, so perhaps it’s the pot calling the kettle black.
That was certainly me 25 years ago. I said I couldn't conceive of not wanting to work when asked about retirement planning by a financial advisor.
Well younger me... I can now. Or at least, to be able to choose what I do regardless of the money.
Well younger me... I can now. Or at least, to be able to choose what I do regardless of the money.
Reading this article and the discussion leave me conflicted.
I retired early (40) from a career that most wouldn’t expect that from. I have two pensions and some modest investments that allow me to live quite well a couple hours from SF, but would be scraping by there.
I can no longer do the career I was successful in due to health degradation from exactly that career, but software was always a part of it so I’m pivoting to that to keep myself engaged and enjoying life.
So the comments here on health precluding this idea are very real. I also took about a year to get through the mental ramifications of my entire career being gone, as well as the entire community I was part of (due to moving). I don’t think this is talked about enough, especially in FIRE circles online. Having talked to a few other early retirees you can quite easily find that you no longer fit with the friends you’ve had for years, either due to interests diverging, spending abilities diverging, or plain old jealousy from some of them.
At the end I elected to pursue more education and (somehow) managed to get into a solid graduate program.
So I do think staying active in retirement is something you should plan, and this is even more true for early retirement. The type of partial work that I see talked about here is possible, but not generally at the earnings potential of your primary career. Things like being a substitute teacher, poll worker, etc. all pay and in California you can make around $15k/year fairly trivially doing that. If you want to donate plasma that’s another $5k/year or so; I haven’t done it but know a few early retirees that do for health reasons (reduction of forever chemicals).
The key to those jobs is that they won’t elevate your stress level like trying to find a salaried job or gig work will.
That’s a quick set of thoughts from someone who actually did execute on this type of life path and is living it in close proximity to SF, and without any type of software career.
I retired early (40) from a career that most wouldn’t expect that from. I have two pensions and some modest investments that allow me to live quite well a couple hours from SF, but would be scraping by there.
I can no longer do the career I was successful in due to health degradation from exactly that career, but software was always a part of it so I’m pivoting to that to keep myself engaged and enjoying life.
So the comments here on health precluding this idea are very real. I also took about a year to get through the mental ramifications of my entire career being gone, as well as the entire community I was part of (due to moving). I don’t think this is talked about enough, especially in FIRE circles online. Having talked to a few other early retirees you can quite easily find that you no longer fit with the friends you’ve had for years, either due to interests diverging, spending abilities diverging, or plain old jealousy from some of them.
At the end I elected to pursue more education and (somehow) managed to get into a solid graduate program.
So I do think staying active in retirement is something you should plan, and this is even more true for early retirement. The type of partial work that I see talked about here is possible, but not generally at the earnings potential of your primary career. Things like being a substitute teacher, poll worker, etc. all pay and in California you can make around $15k/year fairly trivially doing that. If you want to donate plasma that’s another $5k/year or so; I haven’t done it but know a few early retirees that do for health reasons (reduction of forever chemicals).
The key to those jobs is that they won’t elevate your stress level like trying to find a salaried job or gig work will.
That’s a quick set of thoughts from someone who actually did execute on this type of life path and is living it in close proximity to SF, and without any type of software career.
The most telling sentence in the whole piece:
My retirement day is practically at least thirty years ahead.
When you are young, old age seems a long way away.
My retirement day is practically at least thirty years ahead.
When you are young, old age seems a long way away.
One of my fears is quickly losing cognition after retiring. I'm a WFH developer so I'm hoping that lets me extend my working years a bit longer than others can, but I need something to occupy my mind 30 hours a week after that. The idea of just ending up in The Villages driving around golf carts for the rest of my days seems very ominous.
My hope is to find a problem space to research in, there's a lot of capacity in unsolved problems to improve a lot of lives around the world. People die every day from diseases that we've solved in the west 50+ years ago, and there's a lot of work that can be done to make sure humanity has access to existing solutions for example.
My hope is to find a problem space to research in, there's a lot of capacity in unsolved problems to improve a lot of lives around the world. People die every day from diseases that we've solved in the west 50+ years ago, and there's a lot of work that can be done to make sure humanity has access to existing solutions for example.
I must be developing paranoia in my middle-age, because the first thing my brain suggested to me on seeing that headline is that this is the first droplet in the deluge of trying to convince people that they must work until they die on the job.
I want to retire from my day job. I have work I'd like to do of my own that isn't lucrative enough (by a very long ways) that I can't spend sufficient time on now. That will be my "retirement job."
I don't want to work at my current job until I keel over.
I want to retire from my day job. I have work I'd like to do of my own that isn't lucrative enough (by a very long ways) that I can't spend sufficient time on now. That will be my "retirement job."
I don't want to work at my current job until I keel over.
People with physical jobs should definitively be able to retire, a construction worker is not getting up a scaffold at 70.
Everyone in blue collar jobs knows the secret is to get into management or change fields before you start getting up there in years.
Maybe, but that’s not always feasible. Change fields? To what? Maybe teaching, but not every blue collar job can do that, let alone not every worker is capable. And not everyone is fit for management either, and for every manager there’s at least 10 workers under them, so there isn’t space for everyone. The ideal is to actually improve conditions, especially factors outside of the worker’s control, so as to allow them to have a proper retirement.
If only there were enough management jobs for everyone.
The article appears very strong, and true, and it is. Perhaps everyone with some flickering self-recognition will see themselves as the protagonist in the story.
I definitely went through this transition, no earlier than 30, but certainly before 40. I think most self-aware people do.
But the recognition usually comes at a stage of life when you literally have every responsibility: mortgage, spouse, kids, beholden to some Dilbert-boss, and carrying the world on your shoulders (not sarc - Atlas, please don't shrug).
You have no honorable options to escape. Every dimension of escape is betrayal. Don't believe me? Try it and see. Face it, own it, own everything. Wait, push harder, postpone deliverance.
The decline of the hope and expectation that work could provide fulfilment happens gradually, then suddenly (as Hemingway once said about bankruptcy). But as I retire, I still code, I always will. It gives me joy.
The temptation is then to tell all your younger successors about the valuable insight you've acquired. What you have learned is very very important. But it cannot be told, or taught, it has to be experienced - or not.
My advice to parents is to treat your children as ~20% older than they are. By the time they hit aggravated puberty, you are already talking to them as adults. They don't deserve it, but they will thank you later. And even if they don't, you have no regrets, you showed them the shining path, the parental star of piercing brightness.
Show, don't tell.
Just be the best you can be at every interaction point with the world. Whatever person or problem is in front of you right now - just be the best you can possibly be. Don't think about the future. If you inevitably fail, from time to time, as you will, learn from failure, train what you wish you could do, and be better next time.
Be the absolute best in the grave. What better accolade?
Show, don't tell. Forever.
Of course, I contradict my own advice. We are all unfathomably contradictory.
"I contain multitudes"
Walt Whitman presaging Hesse, Gödel, or perhaps Wittgenstein - how can I tell what cannot be told?
I tried my best.
I definitely went through this transition, no earlier than 30, but certainly before 40. I think most self-aware people do.
But the recognition usually comes at a stage of life when you literally have every responsibility: mortgage, spouse, kids, beholden to some Dilbert-boss, and carrying the world on your shoulders (not sarc - Atlas, please don't shrug).
You have no honorable options to escape. Every dimension of escape is betrayal. Don't believe me? Try it and see. Face it, own it, own everything. Wait, push harder, postpone deliverance.
The decline of the hope and expectation that work could provide fulfilment happens gradually, then suddenly (as Hemingway once said about bankruptcy). But as I retire, I still code, I always will. It gives me joy.
The temptation is then to tell all your younger successors about the valuable insight you've acquired. What you have learned is very very important. But it cannot be told, or taught, it has to be experienced - or not.
My advice to parents is to treat your children as ~20% older than they are. By the time they hit aggravated puberty, you are already talking to them as adults. They don't deserve it, but they will thank you later. And even if they don't, you have no regrets, you showed them the shining path, the parental star of piercing brightness.
Show, don't tell.
Just be the best you can be at every interaction point with the world. Whatever person or problem is in front of you right now - just be the best you can possibly be. Don't think about the future. If you inevitably fail, from time to time, as you will, learn from failure, train what you wish you could do, and be better next time.
Be the absolute best in the grave. What better accolade?
Show, don't tell. Forever.
Of course, I contradict my own advice. We are all unfathomably contradictory.
"I contain multitudes"
Walt Whitman presaging Hesse, Gödel, or perhaps Wittgenstein - how can I tell what cannot be told?
I tried my best.
The usual retort to this is of the form "this is a privileged position to take. People who drive cabs, work construction and clean drains can't even think of this".
I agree, but we should recognize that we are moving more and more towards a world where automation enters every facet of our life, every step of the supply chain. Hitting a pause once in a while and just reflecting on how life has changed will do a lot towards changing opinions on work and retirement. While FIRE is achievable (at least until now in software), what I think I want is a long career to work on hard problems with other people of the same wavelength.
Easier said than done, but tbh we have a lot of free time today that we waste in social media as the OP says. Consciously slowing down a bit so that one can run a longer, more focused, perhaps less financially lucrative race but also one that has a higher probability of being fulfilling and putting us in touch with good people is something all of us, the well-paid software guys, must aspire to and put into practice.
I agree, but we should recognize that we are moving more and more towards a world where automation enters every facet of our life, every step of the supply chain. Hitting a pause once in a while and just reflecting on how life has changed will do a lot towards changing opinions on work and retirement. While FIRE is achievable (at least until now in software), what I think I want is a long career to work on hard problems with other people of the same wavelength.
Easier said than done, but tbh we have a lot of free time today that we waste in social media as the OP says. Consciously slowing down a bit so that one can run a longer, more focused, perhaps less financially lucrative race but also one that has a higher probability of being fulfilling and putting us in touch with good people is something all of us, the well-paid software guys, must aspire to and put into practice.
Do companies want older people? In my experience, not so much, so even if you want it's not one side choice.
Sure, let's start by flipping the situation: the state should stop requiring me to pay into the retirement system, and then I'll agree to handle everything on my own. Maybe I'll retire, maybe I won't—but right now, I have no choice. I have to pay a mandatory contribution to the state every month, so it's fine to expect a good retirement plan from the state.
We still need to force people to pay into retirement funds, but we can do so in a way that ensures people get what they put in and then some, rather than receiving scraps from the government. Ideally, rather than pay income tax, it’s put into a pre-tax retirement account under your control akin to a 401k, and invested into passive long term investments. Once the person withdraws the money, then sure the government can take a cut, but the federal government taking 25% of my income just for existing, with no benefit to me? Fuck that.
> We still need to force people to pay into retirement funds
Who exactly is 'we'? Your idea doesn't hold up. Many countries have tried similar systems, but they often end up with poor interest rates. In the end, it's just a cheaper way for the government to borrow money. Your money would be much better if allocated in some ETF or even pure bonds...
Who exactly is 'we'? Your idea doesn't hold up. Many countries have tried similar systems, but they often end up with poor interest rates. In the end, it's just a cheaper way for the government to borrow money. Your money would be much better if allocated in some ETF or even pure bonds...
Please actually read what was said, your reply is incoherent. Where will the money for those ETFs or pure bonds come from? The reality is most people will and do spend their money living pay-to-pay, regardless of income bracket. They have no concept of savings or investments. So it is in the best interests of we, the people, to collectively put a little of everyone’s income into retirement accounts to lessen the burden on social services and improve their living conditions, which is fucking obvious. Not to mention you couldn’t actually read the very blatant statement I made about the government NOT controlling the account, and thus not becoming a piggy bank for elites.
Finally, what countries specifically don’t take income tax, but instead take a cut of income and put it into a non-government backed retirement account associated specifically to that person?
Finally, what countries specifically don’t take income tax, but instead take a cut of income and put it into a non-government backed retirement account associated specifically to that person?
I don’t think we need to force people to pay into retirement funds, especially if we all agree that they’re not effective. What I mean by an ETF is that, instead of the government taking 8% of my income, I actively save that 8% in an ETF (or even bonds). After 25 years or so, those who invest in ETFs will likely see better compound returns compared to those contributing to state-run pension funds.
As for your question about countries that don’t take income tax but rather allocate a portion of income to a personal, non-government-backed retirement account—take a look at Brazil's Fundo de Garantia do Tempo de Serviço (FGTS) as an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundo_de_Garantia_do_Tempo_de_....
> what countries specifically don’t take income tax, but instead take a cut of income and put it into a non-government backed retirement account associated specifically to that person
Government will never "avoid taking income tax", but instead they will take your income tax and force the employer to finance the employee's retirement account.
As for your question about countries that don’t take income tax but rather allocate a portion of income to a personal, non-government-backed retirement account—take a look at Brazil's Fundo de Garantia do Tempo de Serviço (FGTS) as an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundo_de_Garantia_do_Tempo_de_....
> what countries specifically don’t take income tax, but instead take a cut of income and put it into a non-government backed retirement account associated specifically to that person
Government will never "avoid taking income tax", but instead they will take your income tax and force the employer to finance the employee's retirement account.
The trouble is many people will opt out but still expect a handout when they find themselves destitute. Personally I like having a mix as the state pension has a different risk profile compared to other investments.
> For me, the purpose of life is searching for that purpose. That’s the job. The chase, the utter determination in the effort of search, the relentless seeking. It forces you to adapt to the changing world, not build expectations for the future that one day all struggle will stop. It demands training like an athlete for that purpose, enjoying the time with an ever-changing priority list. It asks you not to lose time with seemingly innocent but utmost time-wasters like Facebook, Instagram, or the latest news. It invites you to make the journey more enjoyable by building things that matter—like real relationships with family and friends and community around rituals—and seeking timeless ideas. To be able to do all, it also tempts you to make the journey safer.
Sounds to me a bit like the grown-up version of "The real treasure is the friends we made along the way".
How do you do all the things the author wants you to do while also having a day job and trying to keep your boss happy?
Sounds to me a bit like the grown-up version of "The real treasure is the friends we made along the way".
How do you do all the things the author wants you to do while also having a day job and trying to keep your boss happy?
> that they will suddenly stop what they are doing after a certain age and let younger generations pay for their salary
This is the worst take I have seen in a while. First of all, in both Germany and Türkiye, we put aside a part of our monthly remuneration towards our pension. So when we retire, there is already a sizable sum that we have accumulated via our own work, nobody else is 'paying for our retirement'. It's our own money.
There is no some mythical younger generation working to pay our pensions, we have earned this money, it belongs to us, and we have all the reason to expect to not have to work in our old age.
The problem is only that in the current pension model, your money are not kept tight by the government or the pension fund, but instead spent or speculated with on the stock market. In this model, when you retire, it's not your money you are actually getting, but the pension contributions of the younger generation, because your money has been long spent. But that's a problem of the model, not some unsurmountable obstacle that the author of the article tries to make you believe.
Heck, if the pension fund or the government can't get it right, they can f-off and we can start saving for retirement on our own. But they say they can, so they either have to stand behind their promises, or reorganize to the new reality of people living longer and less young people entering the workforce. If that means that the government needs to guarantee a certain % of our pensions as a collateral, so be it. The world can benefit from less stock market speculation and more monetary resilience.
The myth that the younger generation is somehow paying the pensions of the old and that it's somehow a problem applies only if you don't ask: where did all the money we contributed towards our pension go. It's just a fault in the system that our own pension money is spent recklessly by the governments' bad calculations. The solution to that is emphatically not, as the author mentioned, 'expecting to never retire', but by demanding that our pension money is responsibly handled and not spent in the expectation that future schmucks will also join in this pyramid scheme.
This is the worst take I have seen in a while. First of all, in both Germany and Türkiye, we put aside a part of our monthly remuneration towards our pension. So when we retire, there is already a sizable sum that we have accumulated via our own work, nobody else is 'paying for our retirement'. It's our own money.
There is no some mythical younger generation working to pay our pensions, we have earned this money, it belongs to us, and we have all the reason to expect to not have to work in our old age.
The problem is only that in the current pension model, your money are not kept tight by the government or the pension fund, but instead spent or speculated with on the stock market. In this model, when you retire, it's not your money you are actually getting, but the pension contributions of the younger generation, because your money has been long spent. But that's a problem of the model, not some unsurmountable obstacle that the author of the article tries to make you believe.
Heck, if the pension fund or the government can't get it right, they can f-off and we can start saving for retirement on our own. But they say they can, so they either have to stand behind their promises, or reorganize to the new reality of people living longer and less young people entering the workforce. If that means that the government needs to guarantee a certain % of our pensions as a collateral, so be it. The world can benefit from less stock market speculation and more monetary resilience.
The myth that the younger generation is somehow paying the pensions of the old and that it's somehow a problem applies only if you don't ask: where did all the money we contributed towards our pension go. It's just a fault in the system that our own pension money is spent recklessly by the governments' bad calculations. The solution to that is emphatically not, as the author mentioned, 'expecting to never retire', but by demanding that our pension money is responsibly handled and not spent in the expectation that future schmucks will also join in this pyramid scheme.
This reminds me of a meme where there are two people shown side by side in a debate about euthanasia, the young dude is enthusiastically for, and the old dude against. The person who wrote this is quite obviously young and he thinks he will be able maintain his motivation to work indefinitely. That is not the case for most people in my observation. Sooner or later you'll want to down-shift at least, if not exit the rat race entirely, if you have such an option.
For hire: PhD physicist, 25 years of general programming and systems engineering experience, MBA, creative and dreamy: seeking a benefactor to support a modest lifestyle, and total creative freedom. You will own all IP generated.
No retirement needed, just an inexhaustible line of credit.
Any takers?
Any takers?
There are three fundamentally contradictory paradigms.
1. human lifespan has doubled in last 100 years. Lifespan is still increasing but healthspan isn’t at the same rate. This means in the later years, we are spending a fortune on healthcare costs to extend lifespan a few more months.
2. Retirement age is fixed-ish in most countries. With rising lifespans, this means more years are spent draining on retirement income.
3. Lower birth rates means fewer people working to pay for retirees.
Something has to give. If we have fewer longer living people, then we need them to work more years.
Ideally retirement age is (average lifespan - 20 years) and is adjusted every few years.
It is a tough pill to swallow. Keeping the status quo means current generation will pay for boomers but by the time they retire, the pot runs out.
In US they say, social security will be drained by 2035 if nothing changes.
1. human lifespan has doubled in last 100 years. Lifespan is still increasing but healthspan isn’t at the same rate. This means in the later years, we are spending a fortune on healthcare costs to extend lifespan a few more months.
2. Retirement age is fixed-ish in most countries. With rising lifespans, this means more years are spent draining on retirement income.
3. Lower birth rates means fewer people working to pay for retirees.
Something has to give. If we have fewer longer living people, then we need them to work more years.
Ideally retirement age is (average lifespan - 20 years) and is adjusted every few years.
It is a tough pill to swallow. Keeping the status quo means current generation will pay for boomers but by the time they retire, the pot runs out.
In US they say, social security will be drained by 2035 if nothing changes.
> Something has to give. If we have fewer longer living people, then we need them to work more years.
That's only on the premise that these young people are paying for my pension, which is a falsehood. I am the one who has paid for my pension. It's not my problem that the government/pension fund ran away with my money in the hope that some future shmuck will put more in their pyramid scheme, and then they can guarantee my payoff. That model is obviously not sustainable with people living longer and people having less children.
You know which model is sustainable? The model where I pay each month for my pension, and instead of these money fully disappearing immediately to pay for somebody else's pension, the government/pension fund is required to keep a certain % liquidity on that money, so that I am not dependent on any future generations entering the work force. Banks work like that, by law they are guaranteed to have a certain % of everybody's deposits in terms of liquidity, I don't see why pension funds don't emulate this.
The government and the pension funds should be, however, transparent whether they can change to a sustainable model or not, and that change shouldn't come in terms of draining more money from younger generation's taxes, nor by raising the retirement age. It should only come from the govt/pension funds speculating less with our money, because it's their responsibility to make it right, and not ours.
That's only on the premise that these young people are paying for my pension, which is a falsehood. I am the one who has paid for my pension. It's not my problem that the government/pension fund ran away with my money in the hope that some future shmuck will put more in their pyramid scheme, and then they can guarantee my payoff. That model is obviously not sustainable with people living longer and people having less children.
You know which model is sustainable? The model where I pay each month for my pension, and instead of these money fully disappearing immediately to pay for somebody else's pension, the government/pension fund is required to keep a certain % liquidity on that money, so that I am not dependent on any future generations entering the work force. Banks work like that, by law they are guaranteed to have a certain % of everybody's deposits in terms of liquidity, I don't see why pension funds don't emulate this.
The government and the pension funds should be, however, transparent whether they can change to a sustainable model or not, and that change shouldn't come in terms of draining more money from younger generation's taxes, nor by raising the retirement age. It should only come from the govt/pension funds speculating less with our money, because it's their responsibility to make it right, and not ours.
It's not really about the money, that's just the mechanism of exchange.
The root of the problem is a growing retired population depending on a shrinking group of workers to provide the goods and services they need.
The root of the problem is a growing retired population depending on a shrinking group of workers to provide the goods and services they need.
>In US they say, social security will be drained by 2035 if nothing changes.
Who is "they"? This wording implies social security will be at $0. My social security statements say that at my retirement age (a bit over that) that social security is funded something like 76%. Not nothing.
Who is "they"? This wording implies social security will be at $0. My social security statements say that at my retirement age (a bit over that) that social security is funded something like 76%. Not nothing.
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my former therapist thinks you should work until you die. but he is a good example of why you shouldn't (grandaddy needs naptime while his patients are sharing their traumas)
"that they will suddenly stop what they are doing after a certain age and let younger generations pay for their salary. That’s something I struggle to accept."
I mean I pay ~40%-55% of my income toward various taxes witch fund pensions among other thing. I would expect to get something 'back' after the age of 65. But chances are very slim what that will be any meaningful sum.
I mean I pay ~40%-55% of my income toward various taxes witch fund pensions among other thing. I would expect to get something 'back' after the age of 65. But chances are very slim what that will be any meaningful sum.
Which country? In the UK current tax payers have only been funding current retirees and other current spending, for, IIRC over 30 years. The idea there is a pot with your name on it is way out of date here
That's a problem of the retirement system and the government/pension funds, not workers' problem. Just say the word that the money I am putting towards retirement are not counting towards MY retirement, and I'd stop paying the government/pension funds, and start building the retirement fund myself.
A system where I am funding some random people with the hope that some future random people will be funding me is inherently flawed and assumes
- constant population growth - a constant proportion of less old people vs more youngsters entering the workforce
That kind of system, naturally, is insane and has no base in reality, considering that the trend is old people live longer, and people have less children.
> The idea there is a pot with your name on it is way out of date here
To say that I am not entitled to MY money, and that me expecting MY money to be there when I retire is some sort of ultimate entitlement, that I vehemently disagree with. So either the pension funds and the govt have to accept reality and actually guarantee MY money (by, for example, not touching some % of it), that I put, towards MY retirement, or they can f-off, and I can start saving myself.
A system where I am funding some random people with the hope that some future random people will be funding me is inherently flawed and assumes
- constant population growth - a constant proportion of less old people vs more youngsters entering the workforce
That kind of system, naturally, is insane and has no base in reality, considering that the trend is old people live longer, and people have less children.
> The idea there is a pot with your name on it is way out of date here
To say that I am not entitled to MY money, and that me expecting MY money to be there when I retire is some sort of ultimate entitlement, that I vehemently disagree with. So either the pension funds and the govt have to accept reality and actually guarantee MY money (by, for example, not touching some % of it), that I put, towards MY retirement, or they can f-off, and I can start saving myself.
NI is presented as if it is a fund you contribute to for your pension. Of course the reality is any money deposited in the fund is immediately "loaned" to the government to cover current spending.
> NI is presented as if it is a fund you contribute to for your pension
No it is not. It establishes some entitlements, not a fund
Gov.uk: "You pay National Insurance contributions to qualify for certain benefits and the State Pension."
No it is not. It establishes some entitlements, not a fund
Gov.uk: "You pay National Insurance contributions to qualify for certain benefits and the State Pension."
When I first started reading this my first thought was “Ehh, maybe I don’t need to formalize my thoughts on ‘retirement’ into a blog post if this does a good enough job” but it’s focusing on something a little different than what I’d like to write about I think.
I wrote a brief comment on this a day ago which sparked the idea of writing something longer [0]. Bottom line being: make sure you are happy today, you might not get tomorrow.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41547360
I wrote a brief comment on this a day ago which sparked the idea of writing something longer [0]. Bottom line being: make sure you are happy today, you might not get tomorrow.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41547360
Man, that font really bothers me..
Well, I’m much closer, at 66, to having to deal with the dreams and realities of retirement, than the (much?) younger author of TFA is. All that follows, BTW, is from a USA-centric perspective. (Immodest request: kindly refrain from saying how much better retirement and/or old-age is, in your country-such comparisons are largely unproductive; yet annoyingly tedious.)
I’m still working full time as a Software Developer and systems analyst, and largely by my own choice. Though I admit my lifestyle would be curtailed a bit (or maybe a LOT, if I live long enough!) if I had to live off my current savings plus whatever level of social security I’d be entitled to.
I’m still healthy enough to do the work, but I definitely feel like I don’t have the energy level and stamina that I used to. Nor as much motivation to focus on the job and my career.
Those last two challenges were most apparent during my previous two jobs, which were at software or hardware start-ups. I simply don’t want to deal with that level of stress and time pressure anymore, regardless of whether or not I can work at that pace. (Which is increasingly doubtful, admittedly.)
Currently I’m working at a sort of ‘biotech startup’ except we’re embedded inside a giant pharma company. And the work pace is wonderfully relaxed (and low-stress), compared to my previous employment (in high-tech startups). From my current viewpoint, and career needs, it’s a good match. I get a solid salary (+ bonus and stock), but (unlike software/internet/AI startups): a PHENOMENAL benefits plan. Though not FAANG money; but, then again, I never made that kind of money when I worked for Internet startup companies, so…
The good news, for my current career, is that I’m still mentally sharp enough to have, say, an in depth discussion of the differences between React, Vue, and other UI frameworks. And I’m teaching myself the finer points of TypeScript, as well as applying it on the job. The bad news, is that I’m having a serious of health issues. Nothing catastrophic so far; but gradually increasing in significance or frequency. At this point I feel like it’s a race between when my body gives out, or when I simply lose interest in writing code, and can convince myself that I’ve got enough savings to retire on.
Assuming that I can retire in reasonably OK health (if possible, in 3-4 years, around age 70, when I’d max-out social security benefits), I’m thinking that I have a low boredom threshold, and will want something to keep me engaged (and to help me maintain a healthy regular schedule). I’m not sure what that is yet. Maybe something just for fun (for example, I like to do woodworking)? Maybe something part-time, or freelance; but enough income to make my retirement less financially worrisome)? I’ve thought of: substitute teaching; being a teacher’s assistant (both at secondary education level; college adjunct faculty; sound or TV production; or maybe trying to sell some of my woodworking (which would make it a much less fun hobby, sadly)? Possibly an (off-season) estate caretaker gig?
I’d love to hear from others here, on HN, who are retired (or about to) and have: experience reports, cavests, or tips to convey. Or constructive feedback on my own retirement ideas…
I’m still working full time as a Software Developer and systems analyst, and largely by my own choice. Though I admit my lifestyle would be curtailed a bit (or maybe a LOT, if I live long enough!) if I had to live off my current savings plus whatever level of social security I’d be entitled to.
I’m still healthy enough to do the work, but I definitely feel like I don’t have the energy level and stamina that I used to. Nor as much motivation to focus on the job and my career.
Those last two challenges were most apparent during my previous two jobs, which were at software or hardware start-ups. I simply don’t want to deal with that level of stress and time pressure anymore, regardless of whether or not I can work at that pace. (Which is increasingly doubtful, admittedly.)
Currently I’m working at a sort of ‘biotech startup’ except we’re embedded inside a giant pharma company. And the work pace is wonderfully relaxed (and low-stress), compared to my previous employment (in high-tech startups). From my current viewpoint, and career needs, it’s a good match. I get a solid salary (+ bonus and stock), but (unlike software/internet/AI startups): a PHENOMENAL benefits plan. Though not FAANG money; but, then again, I never made that kind of money when I worked for Internet startup companies, so…
The good news, for my current career, is that I’m still mentally sharp enough to have, say, an in depth discussion of the differences between React, Vue, and other UI frameworks. And I’m teaching myself the finer points of TypeScript, as well as applying it on the job. The bad news, is that I’m having a serious of health issues. Nothing catastrophic so far; but gradually increasing in significance or frequency. At this point I feel like it’s a race between when my body gives out, or when I simply lose interest in writing code, and can convince myself that I’ve got enough savings to retire on.
Assuming that I can retire in reasonably OK health (if possible, in 3-4 years, around age 70, when I’d max-out social security benefits), I’m thinking that I have a low boredom threshold, and will want something to keep me engaged (and to help me maintain a healthy regular schedule). I’m not sure what that is yet. Maybe something just for fun (for example, I like to do woodworking)? Maybe something part-time, or freelance; but enough income to make my retirement less financially worrisome)? I’ve thought of: substitute teaching; being a teacher’s assistant (both at secondary education level; college adjunct faculty; sound or TV production; or maybe trying to sell some of my woodworking (which would make it a much less fun hobby, sadly)? Possibly an (off-season) estate caretaker gig?
I’d love to hear from others here, on HN, who are retired (or about to) and have: experience reports, cavests, or tips to convey. Or constructive feedback on my own retirement ideas…
[deleted]
Alternative title: How to cope with the stranglehold neoliberalism has on us.
Tl;dr “Find a job you like and you’ll never work a day in your life”.
That's cool until your body starts to degrade.
I mean, sure, but that’s what the article says :)
It's no surprise that the author is a software developer, as we are the rare cases that are often well paid, often enjoy what we do tremendously, and the job has few physical requirements that would exclude an elderly person (though age discrimination is very real). The author's points come from a very privileged position, and I'm not sure they realise it.
I'm all for not giving up on life at retirement age, but even though I like my job I sure as hell don't want to be doing a 9-5 when I'm 80. I don't even really want to be doing it now.