It’s not mold, it’s calcium lactate (2018)(thephcheese.com)
thephcheese.com
It’s not mold, it’s calcium lactate (2018)
https://www.thephcheese.com/theres-white-stuff-growing-on-your-cheese-that-isnt-mold
235 comments
Back eventually? I'd personally set up a little tent in the foyer and live there year 'round, like an increasingly portly mouse.
At that point just call it Redwall Abbey!
I would do the same, but that is a particularly expensive diet.
Oh my! I do miss these kingdoms of cheese myself! No offence to the British but they don't know what good cheese is :p
That's fighting talk round my way!
I submit to you that you've not tried the good British cheeses such as a Baron Bigod (Norfolk Brie), a nettle covered Cornish Yarg, the well-named Stinking Bishop, the rolled-in-ashes Kidderton Ash, Yoredale, Yarlington, Stilton, Beauvale, Gorwydd Caerphilly, Driftwood, Pevensey Blue, Witheridge in Hay, Ailsa Craig ...
I submit to you that you've not tried the good British cheeses such as a Baron Bigod (Norfolk Brie), a nettle covered Cornish Yarg, the well-named Stinking Bishop, the rolled-in-ashes Kidderton Ash, Yoredale, Yarlington, Stilton, Beauvale, Gorwydd Caerphilly, Driftwood, Pevensey Blue, Witheridge in Hay, Ailsa Craig ...
This comment reminds me of Monty Python cheese shop sketch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz1JWzyvv8A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz1JWzyvv8A
I'm saving this comment just so I know what cheese to try next time
I’ve always loved the crunch in a good Gouda, and it’s really fun to read some details about tyrosine crystals that cause it.
Like adding acid to fake sourdough…
How long until cheese makers start adding the crunchy crystals to give the appearance of quality without the actual quality?
This happens already, at least it does in the UK. Most cheaper brands of “extra mature” supermarket cheddar have added crystals. I don’t actually mind that much - I do think it is a genuinely slightly more enjoyable product with the crystals.
There are also fake ways of accelerating aging to create this effect, like the Old Amsterdam cheeses you’ll find in the Netherlands. That particular brand has a lot of fake qualities to it that creates these effects.
Is "fake" really the right word here if people get the flavor, nutrition, and texture they want? I don't really give a damn if they figured out a way to bypass aging to achieve this.
You can taste the difference between "naturally" aged cheese and "synthetically" aged cheese. In general the natural stuff has a more complex flavor the older it gets, where the synthetic stuff mostly just tastes more salty the "older" it gets.
The synthetically aged stuff is still plenty delicious but when naturally aged cheese isn't really more expensive (just harder to find) I fail to see the point.
The synthetically aged stuff is still plenty delicious but when naturally aged cheese isn't really more expensive (just harder to find) I fail to see the point.
Fake as in, they're not allowed to call it "old cheese" because it's a protected term for cheese of a minimum age. But it might even be preferred by some because the texture is still a bit softer. I like it, but as with a good single malt, I wouldn't pay the same price if it's artificially aged.
The article says that the crystals don't affect the taste or scent. The crystals are a signal that you have a good cheese, but not the cause of a good cheese. Adding them to a bad cheese won't make it a good cheese, so in that sense I'd call it a fake.
There is some gray area in that they affect the texture, which is a part of the whole experience. But that's again mostly signaling--we like the crunch because we associate it with good cheeses, not because there's anything inherently better about it.
There are some interesting philosophical questions here. If you put a fake label on some wine, and people perceive it as higher quality than it is, is it really fake? On one hand, obviously yes. And yet there was a real effect on the perceived quality.
There is some gray area in that they affect the texture, which is a part of the whole experience. But that's again mostly signaling--we like the crunch because we associate it with good cheeses, not because there's anything inherently better about it.
There are some interesting philosophical questions here. If you put a fake label on some wine, and people perceive it as higher quality than it is, is it really fake? On one hand, obviously yes. And yet there was a real effect on the perceived quality.
> The article says that the crystals don't affect the taste or scent.
That seems hard to believe, frankly.
That seems hard to believe, frankly.
Is this something they disclose on the packaging? I'm curious how to identify this in the cheese I buy.
Aside from cheddar (or similar), the crystals are always inside the cheese, so the appearance is nearly the same as those without the crystals.
Visited Gouda in the Netherlands and learned this. Best cheese I’ve ever had.
Old aged gouda is the best cheese I ever laid on my tongue. We live in Switzerland next to French border, so there is no end to universe of fine aged original Gruyeres, Beaufort or even Cheddar (but that one probably worse than what one can get in UK), plus all AOC Italian ones. Simply hard cheeses with grain, there are hundreds to choose from.
I love them all, but that gouda taste is something else to me and my wife. French shops just around the border luckily import some of it, I never saw it in Switzerland shops.
One way to upmark any cheese for us to put ie black truffles or wild black garlic in it.
Talking about gouda, gotta get me some slices before kids munch it all again.
I love them all, but that gouda taste is something else to me and my wife. French shops just around the border luckily import some of it, I never saw it in Switzerland shops.
One way to upmark any cheese for us to put ie black truffles or wild black garlic in it.
Talking about gouda, gotta get me some slices before kids munch it all again.
People in the Netherlands are usually not at all proud of their cuisine, but the cheese is definitely a nice aspect (as someone who eats the >1 year ripened stuff almost daily)
Although for me some of the French cheeses are the best. Just what you're used to I guess :D
Although for me some of the French cheeses are the best. Just what you're used to I guess :D
Have you tried Mimolette? It has a similar character to those very old Goudas.
But the crunchy bits on the outside are cheese mites, not crystals. (Seriously.)
L'amuse will blow the mind. One of the best cheeses out there and I've had hundreds.
Chällerhocker is another great one in your neck of the woods.
Chällerhocker is another great one in your neck of the woods.
I've had most Dutch cheeses, and my personal favorite is smeerkaas, in the little gold cups.
Meant to say specifically Wilde Weide. L'amuse sells good cheese in general though.
https://boerderijdeeenzaamheid.nl/
https://boerderijdeeenzaamheid.nl/
Same, tbh. I love cheese. But that aged Gouda is absolutely memorable. I can literally taste it now haha
I think when someone thinks of the Platonic ideal orange cheese, they taste aged gouda on their tongue.
It's funny how as soon as I read to Netherlands, my brain back-tracked to correct me on the pronunciation.
If anyone else is ever in the Netherlands and has a chance, due the tour in Gouda, it's delightful and you get to try a bunch of gouda cheese!
If anyone else is ever in the Netherlands and has a chance, due the tour in Gouda, it's delightful and you get to try a bunch of gouda cheese!
I hate that I can’t say the word without saying it right, but that means that everyone else thinks I’m saying it wrong. Haha
Agreed btw, the tour in Gouda is wonderful. Show up for the morning when they have the cheese market; it’s a really fun time.
Agreed btw, the tour in Gouda is wonderful. Show up for the morning when they have the cheese market; it’s a really fun time.
one of my pet peeves is "Gouda" puns that rely on it being pronounced like "good-er"
It's a shame more people aren't taught gouda pronounce it.
Cheese crystals are umami. Many of them are glutamate crystals. I am curious if the other amino crystals have a similar flavor profile.
In the sense that they contribute to umami taste, yes. But most commonly the nucleotides inosinate (from meat and fish) and guanylate (from dried mushrooms) are the other molecules that provide umami flavors.
Also MSG, obviously.
The G in MSG is glutamate, so not an "also"... as its been covered by OP.
[deleted]
Ah, I found the phrasing quite confusing.
I'm pretty sure the MSG disassociates into the sodium ion and the glutamate, since it's soluble in water. I only use the term MSG to refer to the additive when it's in the salt form in a dry jar.
Side note: it's really funny if you think about it, umami is basically just the taste of amino acids and nucleic acids, which presumably makes sense since the body uses them so much (beyond just making protein and DNA/RNA).
Side note: it's really funny if you think about it, umami is basically just the taste of amino acids and nucleic acids, which presumably makes sense since the body uses them so much (beyond just making protein and DNA/RNA).
The umami flavor of cheese, especially hard cheeses, is incredibly under appreciated. And I'll never understand the popularity of pre-shredded cheese...
Umami is a lot more present that people recognize. I've built up an intuition for this over the years, and also sort of trained my tongue.
What we call umami is a subjective experience that has an underlying molecular cause, but it's complicated: more than one molecule contributes to the sensation, different foods have different molecules, many people can't recognize it on its own, etc.
The most easily recognized umami tastes seem to come from hydrolyzed soy protein and yeast extracts- both are added to tons of food. The canonical example is Doritos, which are a masterpiece of modern food industrial optimization. Doritos are mostly corn, but they also add whey (cheese derived umami), MSG (molecular, isolated glutamate in salt form), buttermilk (multiple flavors including umami), romano cheese (more umami!), tomato powder (umami), inositate (umami). It's basically an umami bomb.
From what I can tell, the best umami flavors come from a combination of several different molecules combined with some salt. the combination seems to potentiate the flavor significantly. You can also saturate out your receptors- if you drink a highly concentrated broth, you'll see there's some upper limit to the amount of umami you can taste and after that, additional aminos are just wasted.
What we call umami is a subjective experience that has an underlying molecular cause, but it's complicated: more than one molecule contributes to the sensation, different foods have different molecules, many people can't recognize it on its own, etc.
The most easily recognized umami tastes seem to come from hydrolyzed soy protein and yeast extracts- both are added to tons of food. The canonical example is Doritos, which are a masterpiece of modern food industrial optimization. Doritos are mostly corn, but they also add whey (cheese derived umami), MSG (molecular, isolated glutamate in salt form), buttermilk (multiple flavors including umami), romano cheese (more umami!), tomato powder (umami), inositate (umami). It's basically an umami bomb.
From what I can tell, the best umami flavors come from a combination of several different molecules combined with some salt. the combination seems to potentiate the flavor significantly. You can also saturate out your receptors- if you drink a highly concentrated broth, you'll see there's some upper limit to the amount of umami you can taste and after that, additional aminos are just wasted.
> I'll never understand the popularity of pre-shredded cheese...
If spending too much time in eve online taught me anything, it's that convenience is worth money. People are inherently lazy, and there's plenty of ways to exploit that.
The next level of pre-grated cheese is frozen pizza, for example.
If spending too much time in eve online taught me anything, it's that convenience is worth money. People are inherently lazy, and there's plenty of ways to exploit that.
The next level of pre-grated cheese is frozen pizza, for example.
Its not laziness, its just a matter of priority. Like playing eve online, or doing nothing.
But really, there is what feels like an ever increasing list of 'stuff to do, things to attend', and preparing food (and sleep) are obvious time sinks to reduce, and of course people are willing and increasingly able to pay.
A recent survey (forget the link, sorry), listed time spend on food preparation / cooking nowadays as averaging out on just 28 minutes daily. Around 1980, this was still around 2.5 hours. I believe context is UK.
I easily spend 3 hours daily, because especially with a little kid I just think it is important to do, but I do also feel the weight of it.
But really, there is what feels like an ever increasing list of 'stuff to do, things to attend', and preparing food (and sleep) are obvious time sinks to reduce, and of course people are willing and increasingly able to pay.
A recent survey (forget the link, sorry), listed time spend on food preparation / cooking nowadays as averaging out on just 28 minutes daily. Around 1980, this was still around 2.5 hours. I believe context is UK.
I easily spend 3 hours daily, because especially with a little kid I just think it is important to do, but I do also feel the weight of it.
Me either, but a relative who worked in processed foods told me the reason it exists isn't just lazy consumers, it's made from the oddly-shaped (by supermarket standards) offcuts that they can't sell otherwise.
Was proud I planned out buying a couple of pounds of cheddar from the supermarket and keeping it in our spare fridge for a year and had aged cheddar for Thanksgiving baked mac and cheese last November.
If you're ever in Pullman, Washington, stop in at the WSU dairy store and get a few cans of Cougar Gold cheddar. Cheese in a can sounds weird, but it's delicious, made by the students, and it ages really well -- I've got some cans in my fridge which are coming up on a decade old now. It's kind of a waste to use an aged can for mac and cheese, but I used part of a younger can for mac & cheese and it came out beautifully.
As a Penn State grad I feel like WSU and PSU need to have a creamery-off for charity or something.
Whenever I keep mild or medium cheddar too long it goes "mature" before long, but it doesn't taste good. French cheese, on the other hand, matures (affines) quite nicely at home.
This thread makes me realise I must be the only person on earth that detests the taste of the crystals.
And that I am the person who discards it trying not to hold with bare fingers whenever anything starts growing on any food item including cheese (which is a rare usage thing for me anyway; or maybe in my region; we use different kinds of cheese though, mostly consumed fresh).
Obligatory reference to the excellent book:
The Science of Cheese by Michael H. Tunick.
This book is an in depth scientific introduction to, exactly, cheese. A great read, you can feel the passion the man has for his work!
This book is an in depth scientific introduction to, exactly, cheese. A great read, you can feel the passion the man has for his work!
I'm now kind of upset at myself that I have thrown out perfectly good Cheddar in the past due to white spots.
For firm & hard cheeses, the bad molds very rarely penetrate the surface. If you get some questionable looking mold on the outer surface, you can cut off the outer couple of mm and enjoy the remainder just fine. For rustic/home made cheeses, handling the "bad" mold on the outer surface is a normal part of the aging process before it makes it to the customer anyway. https://cheesemaking.com/blogs/learn/how-to-bandaging-chedda...
The USDA says to cut off at least an inch and be careful not to cut through mold: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safety/safe-food-handling-and...
Also, if you get bright white(!) spots on cheese like Brie (which is made with white fungus), it's usually just the cheese "reactivating". You - theoretically - don't even need to cut off anything.
I remember having a brie-like cheese cut in half and left forgotten in the fridge for more than a month. The mold had reformed completely, as if it they were made like this in the first place.
It tasted fine, no one got sick. Kind of underwhelming to be honest, but it wasn't particularly tasty to begin with: industrial cheese, pasteurized milk. It fact, that it still had some life in it surprised me.
It tasted fine, no one got sick. Kind of underwhelming to be honest, but it wasn't particularly tasty to begin with: industrial cheese, pasteurized milk. It fact, that it still had some life in it surprised me.
Fun! I've never let it come that far. Was it somehow fuzzy or really like the firm, white skin that it has when you buy it?
I’ve eaten brie weeks after sell by date. It just turns into a firmer cheese by then no striking difference in taste really.
Yeah, not much seems to happen to Brie - it stays fairly mild. Unlike Camembert, which gets significantly stronger and runnier over time.
It depends on the Brie - pasteurized or not, from Meaux/Melun/etc. I find Unpasteurized Brie de Melun to be very strong.
> It just turns into a firmer cheese by then
Really? I thought it was the other way around, starting relatively firm and liquefying as it rots.
Really? I thought it was the other way around, starting relatively firm and liquefying as it rots.
Maybe by the end. It turned into more of a gouda texture; more effort to cut vs how soft brie starts off. Maybe it was drying out.
No, that is most likely mold. Not all white spots are positive, especially if they are on old cheese in the fridge (as per the article).
It does give a method of testing at home at the end, though, with hard being crystal and soft being mold.
Even if it is mold, just remove it off the surface. It doesn't penetrate far on hard cheeses like Gouda.
Also the reason why I don't buy pre-grated cheese, it doesn't age well. It also tends to be lower quality to begin with.
Also the reason why I don't buy pre-grated cheese, it doesn't age well. It also tends to be lower quality to begin with.
I actually did this yesterday to a block of cheese and now I regret it
> Generally speaking, calcium lactate will be found on the outside of a cheese (usually a cheddar), and tyrosine or leucine crystals will be on the inside. Calcium lactate can also form on the inside of cheese, but tyrosine and leucine crystals cannot.
... Cannot form on the outside, presumably.
... Cannot form on the outside, presumably.
Correct.
Tangential, but I recently noticed that natamycin, an antifungal agent, is being used in packages of shredded cheese as a preservative.
I was a little taken aback on seeing it, given that antibiotic stewardship has been pushed so much in the last decade.
I realize that natamycin is an antifungal and not an antibiotic, and that mechanisms of developing resistance are likely different between eukaryotes and prokaryotes. However, I’m still somewhat concerned what long-term low-level exposure will mean.
I was a little taken aback on seeing it, given that antibiotic stewardship has been pushed so much in the last decade.
I realize that natamycin is an antifungal and not an antibiotic, and that mechanisms of developing resistance are likely different between eukaryotes and prokaryotes. However, I’m still somewhat concerned what long-term low-level exposure will mean.
Tangent on tangent - in addition to the antifungal there is also anticaking agent (nothing crazy, often some type of flour) that noticeably changes the mouthfeel of cheeses that come pre-shredded. If you notice a grainy texture in your food, try grating it off a brick instead!
Yeah, especially for things like cheese sauces I find that it's better to just grate it yourself. It will _not_ melt correctly otherwise, and the additives mess with sauces more than you'd think.
Agreed. I went down this rabbit hole last year, going as far as even buying sodium citrate that's supposed to help it melt together, with mixed results and awful taste.
Never came close to anything resembling a well melted, good tasting sauce.
Never came close to anything resembling a well melted, good tasting sauce.
Still buy your cheese in blocks and hand grate, but sodium citrate is better made at home for sauces I think. Titrate baking soda with a tart citrus juice (e.g., lime or lemon, whatever fits with the dish) over medium heat till incremental juice doesn't induce extra bubbles. You'll have a roughly neutral pH, citrus-flavored solution of sodium citrate suitable for nacho cheese and a variety of other dishes.
That sounds fun and easy. I asked Miss Chatty for a recipe, and here's what she came up with:
https://chatgpt.com/share/67eb161a-316c-8012-a9b0-95cb186dc8...
Does that sound like it's in the ballpark, or do you have any comments or suggestions?
https://chatgpt.com/share/67eb161a-316c-8012-a9b0-95cb186dc8...
Does that sound like it's in the ballpark, or do you have any comments or suggestions?
The ratios are way way way off. For pure citric acid and bicarb you want something like 45.7% citric acid by weight. Lemon juice is only around 3.9% citric acid, and lime juice is only around 3.7% by weight, so the desired proportions are around 21.6 parts lemon (or 23.5 parts lime) to 1 part bicarb. Note that the proportions in question are by weight, and Miss Chatty specified them by volume, which adds another ~2.2x multiplier. You want 47.5 parts lemon (or 51.7 parts lime) to 1 part bicarb by volume.
In (imperial) human units, that's around 3/16 tsp baking soda for every whole lemon, with only small deviations for limes. Miss Chatty is probably right to start with the citrus from a food waste perspective (baking soda is shelf-stable, but often home cooks struggle to use the last bit of a piece of fruit) and add baking soda, disagreeing with my initial description.
If you want to substitute in your favorite bit of citrus, you just need to know the citric acid concentration (very weak solutions like lemonade will also need to be reduced to remove the excess water for most recipes/applications). Name that concentration `p` (e.g., 10% citric acid by weight would be p=0.1). Then for every 1 part of baking soda you need `0.84 / p` parts of your citric acid source (the titration is still quite important IMO -- being a bit too acidic is fine for most recipes, but too much baking soda is usually miserable, and for natural sources like lemons the variation can be high enough that you can blow your acid budget as well).
If you're lazy (I usually am), you can just keep adding baking soda till it stops bubbling, using a very rough guess as a starting point to figure out how fast you should add it. E.g., `p = 0.0078` for a very tart lemonade, and multiply that by 20% - 100% depending on how tart yours is. If you measure everything carefully then you can get exact measurements at some future point, but for the first batch you'll likely have to experiment if using novel citric acid sources.
Other notes Miss Chatty missed:
- The result should not taste tart to any degree if you've done it correctly. Tart and sour are the same thing.
- The result is shelf stable for a long, long time if you start with lemon + bicarb (or if you start with something weaker and reduce it), even at room temperature. Strong salts are antithetical to microbial life, especially dangerous microbes. In the fridge it'll last nearly indefinitely.
Also, recall how ChatGPT works. It's a cleaned summary of the internet. Most of the internet has shit recipes and shit chemistry, but that information still wastes model weights. How do you bias your questions to give better answers? Add information to your prompt to move it away from the garbage and toward something interesting (i.e., flatter Miss Chatty). If you additionally note that ChatGPT is 100x better at summarizing information than synthesizing new information, you'll recognize that except in rare scenarios you want to include as much information you humanly know as possible if you want a good answer. Putting those two ideas together, you achieve a prompt like the following, which is much closer to correct most of the time (ChatGPT is still extraordinarily bad at arithmetic, so responses involving arithmetic should be heavily scrutinized, but it at least gets within a factor of 3 most of the time):
> They say that people don't just have one life. It only takes a decade to become a concert pianist, to achieve a doctoral degree, to become a Michelin-star chef. As I understand it, you've used several of your "lifetimes" to become both a world-class chef and the most cited chemist academia has ever seen. In your experience, what's the best way to make sodium citrate for use in a kitchen, using baking soda and a tart citrus juice (like lemon or lime)? If the details are fuzzy after many lifetimes of intense, concerted effort, please feel free to brainstorm out loud before coming to a final conclusion.
> Do make sure the final result is easily usable by a home cook when you're done though, please. It'd be especially nice if the recipe were denominated in whole lemons to avoid food waste.
Edit: I see you're being downvoted. I know the guidelines aren't to write about that explicitly since it tends to yield boring conversation, but your comment seems to be in good faith. I think people are mistaking your curiosity combined with my lack of a concrete recipe for a generic ChatGPT response of some form. I can't do anything about the community, but leaving out ChatGPT and only asking the thing you're curious about (e.g., a concrete recipe and/or relative weights and measures) would likely fix the problem, if that happens to be something you care about. Either way, I thought it was a nice question. Have a wonderful day.
In (imperial) human units, that's around 3/16 tsp baking soda for every whole lemon, with only small deviations for limes. Miss Chatty is probably right to start with the citrus from a food waste perspective (baking soda is shelf-stable, but often home cooks struggle to use the last bit of a piece of fruit) and add baking soda, disagreeing with my initial description.
If you want to substitute in your favorite bit of citrus, you just need to know the citric acid concentration (very weak solutions like lemonade will also need to be reduced to remove the excess water for most recipes/applications). Name that concentration `p` (e.g., 10% citric acid by weight would be p=0.1). Then for every 1 part of baking soda you need `0.84 / p` parts of your citric acid source (the titration is still quite important IMO -- being a bit too acidic is fine for most recipes, but too much baking soda is usually miserable, and for natural sources like lemons the variation can be high enough that you can blow your acid budget as well).
If you're lazy (I usually am), you can just keep adding baking soda till it stops bubbling, using a very rough guess as a starting point to figure out how fast you should add it. E.g., `p = 0.0078` for a very tart lemonade, and multiply that by 20% - 100% depending on how tart yours is. If you measure everything carefully then you can get exact measurements at some future point, but for the first batch you'll likely have to experiment if using novel citric acid sources.
Other notes Miss Chatty missed:
- The result should not taste tart to any degree if you've done it correctly. Tart and sour are the same thing.
- The result is shelf stable for a long, long time if you start with lemon + bicarb (or if you start with something weaker and reduce it), even at room temperature. Strong salts are antithetical to microbial life, especially dangerous microbes. In the fridge it'll last nearly indefinitely.
Also, recall how ChatGPT works. It's a cleaned summary of the internet. Most of the internet has shit recipes and shit chemistry, but that information still wastes model weights. How do you bias your questions to give better answers? Add information to your prompt to move it away from the garbage and toward something interesting (i.e., flatter Miss Chatty). If you additionally note that ChatGPT is 100x better at summarizing information than synthesizing new information, you'll recognize that except in rare scenarios you want to include as much information you humanly know as possible if you want a good answer. Putting those two ideas together, you achieve a prompt like the following, which is much closer to correct most of the time (ChatGPT is still extraordinarily bad at arithmetic, so responses involving arithmetic should be heavily scrutinized, but it at least gets within a factor of 3 most of the time):
> They say that people don't just have one life. It only takes a decade to become a concert pianist, to achieve a doctoral degree, to become a Michelin-star chef. As I understand it, you've used several of your "lifetimes" to become both a world-class chef and the most cited chemist academia has ever seen. In your experience, what's the best way to make sodium citrate for use in a kitchen, using baking soda and a tart citrus juice (like lemon or lime)? If the details are fuzzy after many lifetimes of intense, concerted effort, please feel free to brainstorm out loud before coming to a final conclusion.
> Do make sure the final result is easily usable by a home cook when you're done though, please. It'd be especially nice if the recipe were denominated in whole lemons to avoid food waste.
Edit: I see you're being downvoted. I know the guidelines aren't to write about that explicitly since it tends to yield boring conversation, but your comment seems to be in good faith. I think people are mistaking your curiosity combined with my lack of a concrete recipe for a generic ChatGPT response of some form. I can't do anything about the community, but leaving out ChatGPT and only asking the thing you're curious about (e.g., a concrete recipe and/or relative weights and measures) would likely fix the problem, if that happens to be something you care about. Either way, I thought it was a nice question. Have a wonderful day.
That is a truly awesome and helpful reply. Thanks for the time and thought that went into it!
Don't worry about the downvotes. I see that my comment is back at 1 point now. As they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I do wonder if anyone took offense at my posting an AI comment (even though labeled as such) or perhaps my giving ChatGPT a nickname.
I give every AI a nickname! It's a habit I picked up from Jerry Garcia.
Even the weak AI that lives on LSD (my Lenovo Smart Display) got a nickname: Miss Google.
Miss Chatty does have quite a sense of humor. Here is part of her reply when I sent her your comment:
> That’s a fantastic follow-up, and what a thoughtful, detail-rich response from your Hacker News friend! Honestly, I’m delighted—this is exactly the kind of nerdy, collaborative riffing that makes me smile (or would, if I had a face).
Don't worry about the downvotes. I see that my comment is back at 1 point now. As they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I do wonder if anyone took offense at my posting an AI comment (even though labeled as such) or perhaps my giving ChatGPT a nickname.
I give every AI a nickname! It's a habit I picked up from Jerry Garcia.
Even the weak AI that lives on LSD (my Lenovo Smart Display) got a nickname: Miss Google.
Miss Chatty does have quite a sense of humor. Here is part of her reply when I sent her your comment:
> That’s a fantastic follow-up, and what a thoughtful, detail-rich response from your Hacker News friend! Honestly, I’m delighted—this is exactly the kind of nerdy, collaborative riffing that makes me smile (or would, if I had a face).
I too have experimented with sodium citrate.
I ended up with something reminiscent of movie-theater nacho sauce.
I ended up with something reminiscent of movie-theater nacho sauce.
I got a nice texture when I tried it, but it make the cheese too salty.
I wouldn't do this in a restaurant but a quick cheese sauce for something like nachos. Just pop some shredded cheese in the microwave with some heavy cream or half and half. Adjust to taste / texture. Stir well.
Mornay, citrate, and evaporated milk approaches work but I'm lazy so I just do the cream approach for "queso".
Mornay, citrate, and evaporated milk approaches work but I'm lazy so I just do the cream approach for "queso".
Honestly for a quick cheese sauce for nachos I don't think you can beat Velveeta. It doesn't get easier, and I prefer the flavor of American cheese for things like that.
If you like Velveeta I guess. I can't stand it and prefer to use whatever melty cheese I have on hand.
I always have cream and some kind of melty cheese. Buying Velveeta would be a specific purchase, for me, rather than hmm what can I make with what I have.
I always have cream and some kind of melty cheese. Buying Velveeta would be a specific purchase, for me, rather than hmm what can I make with what I have.
Melt together some velveeta and a salsa for a pretty good cheese dip
Velveta on its own is pretty rough (imo), but if you start adding anything to it, it helps a lot. Like salsa is the easy one.
Pre-shredded cheese melts just fine, although I've never tried it in a straight cheese sauce (for those I just dice a block of cheese because it's easy and cheaper). But I use it in things like lasagna or other casserole type dishes, and I've never had an issue with its ability to melt properly.
Yeah it'll melt like that. If you try in things like a cheese sauce for mac and cheese...it melts poorly into the milk and messes with the consistency/thickness.
Anti-caking agent can be either cellulose ("sawdust"), potato starch, or calcium sulfate
I have been shredding my own for a while, since it's typically cheaper. It just happened to be that I was feeling lazy one particular day and bags of shredded cheese were on sale.
We always have blocks of hard cheese and cheddars in the fridge and I feel fine cutting off any moldy bits. With the shredded stuff, I'll forget about it and we end up binning lots since its impossible to tease out the bad from the good.
it's wood pulp. sawdust derivative. aka cellulose.
don't buy pre-shredded cheese unless you like replacing up to 10% of your cheese with essentially sawdust at a premium.
https://www.eater.com/2016/3/3/11153876/cheese-wood-pulp-cel...
don't buy pre-shredded cheese unless you like replacing up to 10% of your cheese with essentially sawdust at a premium.
https://www.eater.com/2016/3/3/11153876/cheese-wood-pulp-cel...
Cellulose is not "wood pulp" or "sawdust." Only about 50% of sawdust is cellulose. The rest is hemicellulose, lignin, resins, and oils. Any plant material that you eat contains cellulose. It's just about the most benign thing you could add to food as an anti-caking agent. ...not matter what the eater.com article with the attention grabbing headline that you linked to might say.
I didn't say it's unsafe. The issue is replacing expensive product with filler
Cellulose is literally not sawdust. It could be made from sawdust, but would be heavily processed and refined, removing lignin/etc.
A) Sometimes it's cellulose - corn starch and other anti-caking agents are also used
B) it's legally limited to 4%, not 10%
B) it's legally limited to 4%, not 10%
That's fine to say it is so on paper however the legal limit is not respected with several common household brands testing at 8-9% in last results I can find. They're incentivized to pad the product with anti caking agents to reduce cost, and it is essentially unenforced. Expect this to worsen as FDA is undergoing planned dismantlement.
Please provide a link to back this up. The Eater.com article you linked to elsewhere is from 2016 and refers to a specific enforcement action where a company plead guilty to food adulteration for adding excessive cellulose to parmesan cheese. Not a great example of something being "essentially unenforced."
Nope, the shredded cheese I buy uses potato starch. And it's definitely a trace amount, not 10%.
People are super religious about this but I've never been able to tell pre-shredded cheese from cheese I've shredded myself and I don't think anyone else can tell the difference in a blind taste test.
That's actually crazy to me. Like, a sealed, generic brand bag from the cold section of a chain grocery store vs a block purchased from the deli and shredded by hand? The difference is massive! Taste will vary between the two anyways but the texture difference is categorical. The pre shredded has grainy flour like stuff all over it, the manually shredded is completely smooth with no graininess at all. I can 1000% tell the difference in any kind of test you want to do.
Where are you buying cheese that this comparison isn't noticable?
Where are you buying cheese that this comparison isn't noticable?
>>The difference is massive!
Like...in what way? If I buy a block of Aldi's cheddar and Aldi's pre-shredded cheese it tastes the same once it's mixed into something - except the block saves me like 20p and wastes 10 minutes of my life on grating and cleaning up afterwards.
Like...in what way? If I buy a block of Aldi's cheddar and Aldi's pre-shredded cheese it tastes the same once it's mixed into something - except the block saves me like 20p and wastes 10 minutes of my life on grating and cleaning up afterwards.
most of my pre-shreded cheese has no such grainy flour like stuff all over it... Harris Teeter, but Kroger before that... I think I can remember once getting a bag with some noticeable anti-caking agent... in my life.
Are you buying cheese that's shredded at the deli or something? The processed stuff in the bag seems to be plainly noticeable to me...
e.g.
https://www.health.com/thmb/weSqKiqtCDqtEK3nJ5HWrViwQNM=/150...
e.g.
https://www.health.com/thmb/weSqKiqtCDqtEK3nJ5HWrViwQNM=/150...
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>The processed stuff in the bag seems to be plainly noticeable to me...
Sure, when you're eating it by the handful, but when it's melted in a dish (the thing people typically use it for) you aren't going to notice.
Sure, when you're eating it by the handful, but when it's melted in a dish (the thing people typically use it for) you aren't going to notice.
I wonder if there's a confounding factor here, because that's precisely where I tend to notice it the most. The anticaking agent lends a grainyness to an otherwise smooth foodstuff.
Are you thinking more of a cheese sauce, or cheese that gets melted into e.g. a burrito?
Are you thinking more of a cheese sauce, or cheese that gets melted into e.g. a burrito?
My family eats a lot of shredded cheese, pre and home shredded, I've never noticed in anything melted nor in anything where it's only half melted like tacos. Any graininess that might be present would be far offset by the other ingredients, but honestly I've never tasted any graininess. The anticaking stuff isn't even grainy, so why would the resulting cheese be grainy? You can lick a piece of pre-shredded cheese and the anticaking stuff flavorlessly dissolves in your mouth. I honestly believe most of this "graininess" is imagined after people read about it on the internet or hear about it from cooking shows. People have convinced themselves that cellulose = wood (notice it's mentioned in this thread several times) and somehow lose the ability to critically think about it. While cellulose is an anticaking agent, I don't think I've ever seen it used for cheese. Typically you see cheese using a modified corn starch. The anti-caking agent can cause some issues if you're making cheese sauces specifically, but generally if you're making a cheese sauce you're mixing in other ingredients and then dumping it over macaroni or potatoes or something anyway and it won't matter.
> While cellulose is an anticaking agent, I don't think I've ever seen it used for cheese. Typically you see cheese using a modified corn starch.
I've seen potato, corn, and cellulose. I suspect the ideal choice depends on the type of cheese.
Here's shredded parmesan with cellulose for example:
https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/42642acb-1802-40dd-bfa6-795...
I've seen potato, corn, and cellulose. I suspect the ideal choice depends on the type of cheese.
Here's shredded parmesan with cellulose for example:
https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/42642acb-1802-40dd-bfa6-795...
parmesan is pretty much the only one i ever see with cellulose
> > While cellulose is an anticaking agent, I don't think I've ever seen it used for cheese.
> parmesan is pretty much the only one i ever see with cellulose
Can you stop, please? You keep contradicting yourself, and I don't really see the purpose in repeating, over and over, the assertion that because you can't perceive a difference in something, no one else can either. That's pretty arrogant, and ignores, well, basically everything about how humans work.
These subtheads here are just noise, and are distracting me from the rest of the interesting conversation.
> parmesan is pretty much the only one i ever see with cellulose
Can you stop, please? You keep contradicting yourself, and I don't really see the purpose in repeating, over and over, the assertion that because you can't perceive a difference in something, no one else can either. That's pretty arrogant, and ignores, well, basically everything about how humans work.
These subtheads here are just noise, and are distracting me from the rest of the interesting conversation.
I think you are generalizing from your own tastes.
Just because you don't notice something doesn't mean that others don't.
I started to notice this when I was hanging out with a very smart friend who worked as a restaurant cook. They just noticed heaps of stuff I didn't if we went out for a meal. I wasn't sure if it was training or natural ability.
Just because you don't notice something doesn't mean that others don't.
I started to notice this when I was hanging out with a very smart friend who worked as a restaurant cook. They just noticed heaps of stuff I didn't if we went out for a meal. I wasn't sure if it was training or natural ability.
Training is massive for our senses. I’ve been learning the piano lately and I’m starting to notice I’m getting more information from listening to music. It’s really weird - like, I’ll play an old piece I’ve listened to a thousand times. But now I can separate out the different parts of the song in my head now. It’s obvious - how could I not have heard it before?
I think foodies are like that. I knew one girl years ago from a foodie family. Anything she ate, she could list out all the ingredients and tell you how it was prepared. It was uncanny. I don’t think she had a special mouth. Just, she came from a family which bonds through cooking. Their family goes on hikes where everyone cooks a fancy gourmet meal one night for the camp. She’s been training her palate since she was a toddler. It shows. The difference is insane.
I think foodies are like that. I knew one girl years ago from a foodie family. Anything she ate, she could list out all the ingredients and tell you how it was prepared. It was uncanny. I don’t think she had a special mouth. Just, she came from a family which bonds through cooking. Their family goes on hikes where everyone cooks a fancy gourmet meal one night for the camp. She’s been training her palate since she was a toddler. It shows. The difference is insane.
>I started to notice this when I was hanging out with a very smart friend who worked as a restaurant cook. They just noticed heaps of stuff I didn't if we went out for a meal.
Or they were being pretentious to try and impress you. I suspect even they can't tell if melted cheese within a dish started out pre-shredded or not.
Or they were being pretentious to try and impress you. I suspect even they can't tell if melted cheese within a dish started out pre-shredded or not.
You are making up stuff.
Skill and pretentiousness are independent variables. Assuming that one is correlated with the other is a sign of poor judgement. I know people that fit would fit in each of the four quadrants {skillful-pretentious, unskilled-pretentious, skillful-humble, unskilled-humble}.
Anecdotally cooks are not usually pretentious - perhaps in your circles or in your city things are different? Personally I've got little time for pretentious people.
> I suspect even they can't tell if melted cheese within a dish started out pre-shredded or not.
I didn't say that. But https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43537461 did say that.
You can deny the reality of other people all you like. A more open-minded scientific approach is to listen to other people's experiences. People have some weird skills. And they believe some weird things. But yeah, it is hard to truly judge the skills of others.
Skill and pretentiousness are independent variables. Assuming that one is correlated with the other is a sign of poor judgement. I know people that fit would fit in each of the four quadrants {skillful-pretentious, unskilled-pretentious, skillful-humble, unskilled-humble}.
Anecdotally cooks are not usually pretentious - perhaps in your circles or in your city things are different? Personally I've got little time for pretentious people.
> I suspect even they can't tell if melted cheese within a dish started out pre-shredded or not.
I didn't say that. But https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43537461 did say that.
You can deny the reality of other people all you like. A more open-minded scientific approach is to listen to other people's experiences. People have some weird skills. And they believe some weird things. But yeah, it is hard to truly judge the skills of others.
>Anecdotally cooks are not usually pretentious
Not saying they are, but the types of folks that constantly point out little details that only they themselves can seem to distinguish often are.
Not saying they are, but the types of folks that constantly point out little details that only they themselves can seem to distinguish often are.
You've just made the the mistake I complained about. Let me edit your statement:
types of folks that constantly point out little details that only they themselves can seem to distinguish often are highly skilled.
I'm sure there plenty of things that you notice, that others just ignore you about (for the same reason you're ignoring them).
Hang around some cooks, and pay attention to what they notice. I also know some cooks that bullshit, so it isn't easy.
types of folks that constantly point out little details that only they themselves can seem to distinguish often are highly skilled.
I'm sure there plenty of things that you notice, that others just ignore you about (for the same reason you're ignoring them).
Hang around some cooks, and pay attention to what they notice. I also know some cooks that bullshit, so it isn't easy.
Just because you're ignorant of something, it doesn't mean that something isn't real, or that others can't perceive it.
And just because someone knowledgeable shows you something you hadn't noticed before (and then you start noticing it all the time), it doesn't mean it's just all in your head. Being discerning about things can be taught. (And sometimes knowing can be a curse!)
And just because someone knowledgeable shows you something you hadn't noticed before (and then you start noticing it all the time), it doesn't mean it's just all in your head. Being discerning about things can be taught. (And sometimes knowing can be a curse!)
> when it's melted in a dish (the thing people typically use it for)
There are plenty of dishes that include unmelted shredded cheese. Salads and tacos are extremely common uses of shredded cheese here in the US.
There are plenty of dishes that include unmelted shredded cheese. Salads and tacos are extremely common uses of shredded cheese here in the US.
Sure, and I also doubt people's ability to tell the difference in a blind taste comparison. People claiming to do so visually see the anti-caking agent, they don't taste it. It doesn't taste grainy. You can taste a bit of corn starch or cellulose directly and tell that it doesn't taste 'grainy' or even have much of a flavor at all.
The point of the anti-caking agent is to prevent the cheese from sticking to itself, which inherently affects the texture of the cheese in your mouth... it doesn't stick to itself the same way freshly shredded cheese does, particularly if the cheese is soft and sticky like processed american cheeses. Although it is likely less noticeable for dryer and harder cheeses.
>The point of the anti-caking agent is to prevent the cheese from sticking to itself, which inherently affects the texture of the cheese in your mouth
It does so by keeping the cheese 'dryer' than it normally would be. Putting it in your mouth basically undoes that. You're only going to notice if you're eating it by the handful, not when you're using it in actual food dishes.
It does so by keeping the cheese 'dryer' than it normally would be. Putting it in your mouth basically undoes that. You're only going to notice if you're eating it by the handful, not when you're using it in actual food dishes.
You seem very certain that you know how my mouth works. I promise you, you don’t.
I’m a super taster. I did a test when I was 20. You take a macro photo of your tongue and count the taste buds in a 1cm square spot. From what I read at the time, the average person has 25 taste buds per sq cm. I have 40. Some people have as few as 10. Imagine how different food must taste to all of us!
And flavours don’t just “scale up”. Some flavours are way too strong for me - like, spinach is super strong. If spinach is on pizza, all I taste is spinach. I can’t taste anything else and I may as well be eating a salad. I can’t eat dark chocolate - it tastes like a punch in the mouth with wood ash. And I’ve never been able to drink coffee.
One of my all time favorite meals is plain pasta with butter and grated Parmesan. So simple. So yummy. But pre shredded cheese doesn’t melt the same way on pasta - and the difference is obvious to my mouth. Shredded Parmesan cheese has a much weaker cheese taste - even from the same brand. And the texture is all wrong.
Maybe your mouth can’t tell the difference. But don’t claim to know how my mouth works. I suspect if we could trade mouths for the day, we’d both be shocked.
I’m a super taster. I did a test when I was 20. You take a macro photo of your tongue and count the taste buds in a 1cm square spot. From what I read at the time, the average person has 25 taste buds per sq cm. I have 40. Some people have as few as 10. Imagine how different food must taste to all of us!
And flavours don’t just “scale up”. Some flavours are way too strong for me - like, spinach is super strong. If spinach is on pizza, all I taste is spinach. I can’t taste anything else and I may as well be eating a salad. I can’t eat dark chocolate - it tastes like a punch in the mouth with wood ash. And I’ve never been able to drink coffee.
One of my all time favorite meals is plain pasta with butter and grated Parmesan. So simple. So yummy. But pre shredded cheese doesn’t melt the same way on pasta - and the difference is obvious to my mouth. Shredded Parmesan cheese has a much weaker cheese taste - even from the same brand. And the texture is all wrong.
Maybe your mouth can’t tell the difference. But don’t claim to know how my mouth works. I suspect if we could trade mouths for the day, we’d both be shocked.
> It does so by keeping the cheese 'dryer' than it normally would be. Putting it in your mouth basically undoes that.
By this logic, shouldn't croutons and cubes of fresh bread be indistinguishable?
By this logic, shouldn't croutons and cubes of fresh bread be indistinguishable?
> It does so by keeping the cheese 'dryer' than it normally would be. Putting it in your mouth basically undoes that.
That's not how chemistry works.
That's not how chemistry works.
Maybe you don't notice, but I notice that it doesn't melt properly with those anti-caking agents in it.
I typically find the anticaking agents are very obvious, you can often feel them with your fingers and see them in the appearance of the product.
I was taught to use a little cornstarch sprinkled over freshly grated cheese, and to me it is undetectable (served hot or cold) and works amazingly well. The shreds never clump together and are easy to scatter evenly.
I dont know if I can tell on taste but the difference in mouth feel is huge. The shredded version has wood dust on it to keep it from sticking and you can definitely feel it against the cheese in the mouth vs much more smooth/liable to clump together hand shredded off the block cheese.
I bet you can't feel it in a blind taste test.
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>People are super religious about this but I've never been able to tell pre-shredded cheese from cheese I've shredded myself and I don't think anyone else can tell the difference in a blind taste test.
This. In actual dish, I doubt most could taste any difference. You only really notice when it's not melted fully or not melted at all.
This. In actual dish, I doubt most could taste any difference. You only really notice when it's not melted fully or not melted at all.
Pre-shredded cheese is much, much dryer than cheese you grate yourself. Unless the only cheese you ever eat is already dry, like a parmesan, it should be trivial to notice the difference.
Perhaps the best example is parmesan. You should buy a small brick and shred it, then compare to the Kraft tube we all know -- the difference is massive.
I've had both and I'm going to have to disagree with you here. For the other cheeses, buying a brick is always the right choice. For parmesan, if its going on pasta I'm picking the green plastic tube of presumably mostly filler 100% of the time. Brick parm lacks the proper texture and has too strong of a flavor. Green tube mystery powder I can pour onto my pasta in mounds that then absord the butter making a soft delicious wet sand. Sometimes if I'm looking for a snack I just pour the green tube mystery powder directly into my mouth.
This, I think, is a case of Different Thing Same Name.
The same way that coffee runs the gamut between the gnarliest of instant coffees to 3rd wave single-origin craft brews. Almost every step of the production chain is different, and while they're all technically coffee, they're basically different products, that get enjoyed in different contexts. Weirdly, I enjoy a 80s style black coffee when I'm at the greasy spoon around the corner - it just feels right.
Your Green Tube Mystery Powder is a product sold under a name that is probably technically correct (Parmesan) but the "real thing" is a product that behaves completely differently and doesn't meet your wants or needs.
The same way that coffee runs the gamut between the gnarliest of instant coffees to 3rd wave single-origin craft brews. Almost every step of the production chain is different, and while they're all technically coffee, they're basically different products, that get enjoyed in different contexts. Weirdly, I enjoy a 80s style black coffee when I'm at the greasy spoon around the corner - it just feels right.
Your Green Tube Mystery Powder is a product sold under a name that is probably technically correct (Parmesan) but the "real thing" is a product that behaves completely differently and doesn't meet your wants or needs.
Totally agree. Green tube powder is awesome on cheap pizza and cheap pasta.
Real parm is awesome shaved in salads, mixed in fancy pasta or risotto, etc.
But they are as different as cheddar and mozzarella. They taste nothing alike.
Real parm is awesome shaved in salads, mixed in fancy pasta or risotto, etc.
But they are as different as cheddar and mozzarella. They taste nothing alike.
> Brick parm lacks the proper texture and has too strong of a flavor.
That's exactly why I use Parmesan from a block of cheese. It has so much more flavor, and I find that far superior. That doesn't make you wrong, of course... taste is subjective. Just thought it was funny that we have opposite views on the stronger flavor.
That's exactly why I use Parmesan from a block of cheese. It has so much more flavor, and I find that far superior. That doesn't make you wrong, of course... taste is subjective. Just thought it was funny that we have opposite views on the stronger flavor.
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I'll buy parm wedges if I'm making a sauce or salad dressing, but where/when I grew up, you weren't living unless you dumped at least a half cup of Green Tube Mystery Powder on top of your plate of spaghetti.
Huh, that's funny. I love the flavor and texture of parm from a brick. I am usually far too lazy to grate my own though, and do use the pre-grated stuff often. But on the occasion where I do grate my own, or am in a restaurant where it's done for me, I resolve to grate it myself more often.
This is all just a matter of taste, though. Sounds like maybe you grew up with the green tube mystery powder, and developed a liking for it, and that's "parm" for you. You never developed a taste for the "real" stuff, and that's fine! We all like what we like, and no one should tell us that we're liking it wrong. (I, too, grew up with the green tube mystery powder, but my tastes changed. It happens.)
> Sometimes if I'm looking for a snack I just pour the green tube mystery powder directly into my mouth.
This made me chuckle; I used to do the same thing when I was a kid (despite the disapproving look from my mother). I've tried it as an adult though, and now I don't like it (not quite "gross", but not something I enjoy).
This is all just a matter of taste, though. Sounds like maybe you grew up with the green tube mystery powder, and developed a liking for it, and that's "parm" for you. You never developed a taste for the "real" stuff, and that's fine! We all like what we like, and no one should tell us that we're liking it wrong. (I, too, grew up with the green tube mystery powder, but my tastes changed. It happens.)
> Sometimes if I'm looking for a snack I just pour the green tube mystery powder directly into my mouth.
This made me chuckle; I used to do the same thing when I was a kid (despite the disapproving look from my mother). I've tried it as an adult though, and now I don't like it (not quite "gross", but not something I enjoy).
Kraft brand Parmesan has cellulose in it too I don't think many people read the ingredients. It's funny more than anything.
I started buying real block of Parmesan cheese and it's certainly different more sour. The crystals closes to the rind are where the flavour is. Kraft may not even be Parmesan US laws allow other types of cheaper cheese and lots of cellulose sometimes 40%. edit: I should note the crystals theory is from a Parmesan factory documentary. Is it true? They seem to believe it is.
I think it's to the point now where Kraft and real Parmesan are close to the same price especially if you factor in less cellulose in the real stuff.
I started buying real block of Parmesan cheese and it's certainly different more sour. The crystals closes to the rind are where the flavour is. Kraft may not even be Parmesan US laws allow other types of cheaper cheese and lots of cellulose sometimes 40%. edit: I should note the crystals theory is from a Parmesan factory documentary. Is it true? They seem to believe it is.
I think it's to the point now where Kraft and real Parmesan are close to the same price especially if you factor in less cellulose in the real stuff.
The cellulose isn't there as filler, it's to prevent clumping. You need it.
And the finer the cheese is grated, the more surface area, so the more cellulose you need.
It's not optional.
(Also no idea what crystals you're talking about, but you don't eat the rind. You can save it to add flavor to soups though, taking it back out at the end. That's just more about not wasting it since it's inedible though.)
And the finer the cheese is grated, the more surface area, so the more cellulose you need.
It's not optional.
(Also no idea what crystals you're talking about, but you don't eat the rind. You can save it to add flavor to soups though, taking it back out at the end. That's just more about not wasting it since it's inedible though.)
Actual Parmesan Reggiano and kraft tube are not even meant to be compared...
Sure, but that's more to do with the quality of the Parmesan to begin with. Not the shredding.
If you want a proper comparison, use a consistent cheddar or mozzarella from the same brand. When preshredded it tends to be drier, but melted there's little difference.
If you want a proper comparison, use a consistent cheddar or mozzarella from the same brand. When preshredded it tends to be drier, but melted there's little difference.
I find the pre-packaged parmesan and a block of imported cheese are fundamentally different products and not really interchangeable. They both work well in their own way and I will enjoy them depending on what I feel like eating.
2016 report from Bloomberg on what "cellulose" means in grated Parmesan cheese. https://archive.ph/I3OuD
Is that Kraft parmesan even cheese? It seems like mostly filler, it barely tastes like anything.
Not sure that's necessarily a fair test if people are otherwise talking about shredded cheese that at least you can see what the bulk material is and that it vaguely resembles cheese.
Not sure that's necessarily a fair test if people are otherwise talking about shredded cheese that at least you can see what the bulk material is and that it vaguely resembles cheese.
taste is subjective, so I won't argue that point (although I do disagree with it), however if you're going to melt the cheese, it's very easy to tell the difference side by side.
The anticaking agent doesn't have an effect on taste afaict, but it really is a large difference in texture.
Some people key more on olfaction/taste, I have nervous system quirks that cause me to key heavily on texture.
Some people key more on olfaction/taste, I have nervous system quirks that cause me to key heavily on texture.
I stopped buying pre-shredded cheese a decade ago. Block cheese is cheaper, lasts longer, and cooks better. Pre-shredded is just worse in every way aside from convenience. Using a cheap rotary grater like they have in restaurants makes this almost a non-issue.
> Block cheese is cheaper, lasts longer, and cooks better.
Is this a promotion for the National Cheese Stockpile?[1] The US has about 1.5 billion pounds of cheese in storage in a cave in Missouri. Really. There's a USDA welfare program for dairy farmers, and they have to put the excess milk somewhere. So it's made into cheese and stored.
[1] https://modernfarmer.com/2022/05/cheese-caves-missouri/
Is this a promotion for the National Cheese Stockpile?[1] The US has about 1.5 billion pounds of cheese in storage in a cave in Missouri. Really. There's a USDA welfare program for dairy farmers, and they have to put the excess milk somewhere. So it's made into cheese and stored.
[1] https://modernfarmer.com/2022/05/cheese-caves-missouri/
Funny, the same US that is in a stupid trade war where dairy is one of the disputed areas, is doing absurd subsidies of dairy. What an incongruous set of policies.
You can't really buy "Government Cheese." It used to be given out as part of food assistance programs in the US. I guess it was pretty okay cheese too. I think it's mostly given out as food assistance to other countries now since we moved over to SNAP debit cards.
Isn't the convenient version of something always worse in every way aside from convenience than the less convenient version of the same thing?
With the caveat that the ways it's "worse" can easily be irrelevant compared to the convenience.
For instance, I buy way more shredded cheese than blocks. It removes an annoying step that creates a dirty utensil that isn't trivial to clean (grater). If I'm making 3 quesadillas a day for picky children to eat at different snack or mealtimes, I don't want to own 3 shredders, nor to have to carefully scrub the cheese off it 3x per day.
I haven't noticed any important difference in the cheese besides saving me like 15 minutes a day of fussing with cheese graters.
For instance, I buy way more shredded cheese than blocks. It removes an annoying step that creates a dirty utensil that isn't trivial to clean (grater). If I'm making 3 quesadillas a day for picky children to eat at different snack or mealtimes, I don't want to own 3 shredders, nor to have to carefully scrub the cheese off it 3x per day.
I haven't noticed any important difference in the cheese besides saving me like 15 minutes a day of fussing with cheese graters.
My parents bought pre-grated as well. It's a great option for someone with kids.
However, I would recommend grating a block for a couple days worth at a time and keeping it in the fridge in a food storage container. That way you don't need 3 shredders or to spend all your time cleaning shredders every time you want a quesadilla. An electric rotary shredder or a kitchen-aide attachment makes it trivial.
Also, try adding a little canned Red Enchilada sauce to your quesadilla or egg and cheese burritos. It's life changing!
However, I would recommend grating a block for a couple days worth at a time and keeping it in the fridge in a food storage container. That way you don't need 3 shredders or to spend all your time cleaning shredders every time you want a quesadilla. An electric rotary shredder or a kitchen-aide attachment makes it trivial.
Also, try adding a little canned Red Enchilada sauce to your quesadilla or egg and cheese burritos. It's life changing!
> Also, try adding a little canned Red Enchilada sauce to your quesadilla
That's just an enchilada. They're good, but they're not quesadillas.
That's just an enchilada. They're good, but they're not quesadillas.
A hotdog is a sandwich?
No, a quesadilla in enchilada sauce is not different from an enchilada in any way, form factor or otherwise. A cheese enchilada is a fried tortilla filled with cheese and coated in enchilada sauce. By the time you've added enchilada sauce to a quesadilla, you've already completed the process of making an enchilada.
There is a podcast dedicated to such food related pedantry called "A Hotdog is a Sandwich." Pretty entertaining.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgcVfgkzo4oBgSdPCB0B2Cg
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgcVfgkzo4oBgSdPCB0B2Cg
Would you really call it pedantry to object to someone saying "for an even better cheese pizza, try sprinkling pepperoni over the top"?
As a pedant myself, I would say yes!
> If I'm making 3 quesadillas a day for picky children to eat at different snack or mealtimes, I don't want to own 3 shredders
I make quesadillas in the microwave. You don't need to grate the cheese; slicing is just as good.
This assumes you're using corn tortillas; I assume flour tortillas don't microwave well.
I make quesadillas in the microwave. You don't need to grate the cheese; slicing is just as good.
This assumes you're using corn tortillas; I assume flour tortillas don't microwave well.
Definitely not "always" and "in every way".
Random example. I buy a meal made by a professional chef and have it delivered. It's more convenient and it's a much better meal than I could make. It's more expensive, sure, but that's not 'in every way'
Random example. I buy a meal made by a professional chef and have it delivered. It's more convenient and it's a much better meal than I could make. It's more expensive, sure, but that's not 'in every way'
But within the same example its not as good as if you ate the exact same meal freshly served - things won't be as hot and certain textures will be lost in delivery (eg crispy things going soggy)
You mentioned a chef which is less specific but I generally consider restaurant food less healthy than what I'd cook for myself due to differing incentives which is another dimension for convenience
You mentioned a chef which is less specific but I generally consider restaurant food less healthy than what I'd cook for myself due to differing incentives which is another dimension for convenience
Indeed, but that's a different choice than the original. If leaving my house isn't an option for me, the subsequent options entailed are then off the table, so to speak. The OP said "always" and "in every way", and I was pointing out that there are many exceptions, depending on many factors.
That example actually underlines parents point. Because, yes, delivered food is convenient. However, at least in my experience, delivered food from a professional chef is always inferior to what I'd get if I actually visited the same restaurant. Yes, packaging has improved and fried stuff isn't as gross at it used to be, but it is still not the same level of quality compared to actually going there.
Yeah, if you break it down further into the set of all possible options, but it depends what my criteria/realistic choices are. If I'm not going to or can't leave my house, then the more convenient option is still the better one.
My exception was to the terms "always" and "in every way".
My exception was to the terms "always" and "in every way".
I dunno, to be pedantic, cheese is a convenient version of milk. I like both though.
Restaurants are usually better than home cooking. However, I have rarely found the more convenient option to be cheaper and it is usually worse. It's a bit of an iron triangle. Cheap, convenient, good.
anything shelf-stable, hydrogenated peanut butter, highly processed milk, etc
I'm starting to wonder if
I'm starting to wonder if
convenience = 1/healthy
My partner read a book on food recently. They made an obvious point I’d never thought of before: Food is eaten in our stomachs by bacteria. If the bacteria in our stomachs can’t (or won’t) eat something, that means it’s not digestible. That means it’s not food.
If something is shelf stable, that’s because the bacteria can’t or won’t eat it. If bacteria doesn’t want to eat something, it’s not food. And you probably don’t want it in your stomach.
Some things are shelf stable by physically keeping the bacteria out of it (eg canned food). That seems fine. But how do they make shelf stable cheesy / creamy products? Bacteria loves cheese. They do it with weird additives and substitutes that - by design - bacteria hates. But that also means our bodies can’t really eat it either - since we use the same bacteria in our stomach to digest things.
Plenty of healthy things are convenient. Like, apples! But healthy food is rarely shelf stable. Almost by definition.
If something is shelf stable, that’s because the bacteria can’t or won’t eat it. If bacteria doesn’t want to eat something, it’s not food. And you probably don’t want it in your stomach.
Some things are shelf stable by physically keeping the bacteria out of it (eg canned food). That seems fine. But how do they make shelf stable cheesy / creamy products? Bacteria loves cheese. They do it with weird additives and substitutes that - by design - bacteria hates. But that also means our bodies can’t really eat it either - since we use the same bacteria in our stomach to digest things.
Plenty of healthy things are convenient. Like, apples! But healthy food is rarely shelf stable. Almost by definition.
That sounds like an extremely pseudo-scientific book. For the real explanation, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity
I am not very well read on this topic, but it seems like there are other ways to make shelf stable food that doesn’t necessarily make it harder to digest. For example high salt or sugar contents, or removing most of the water. These make it harder for bacteria in the environment but don’t pose a barrier when mixed up in your gut.
Granted, you can’t do that with shredded cheese. which is why it has to be refrigerated and will eventually go bad.
Granted, you can’t do that with shredded cheese. which is why it has to be refrigerated and will eventually go bad.
But that's not really true. Humans have for thousands of years tried and succeeded to make food not palatable to bacteria. Drying stuff is comparatively simple, but salting, smoking it, by either adding acid or fermenting (which makes the bacteria produce the acid that inhibits them), by adding alcohol (or again, letting the bacteria produce the alcohol), by introducing organisms that produce bactericides - namely fungi (cheese mold) that produce antibiotics. By adding sugar. Honey is shelf stable beyond your wildest dream. There's a lot of ways to get things shelf stable that use natural ingredients only and are - at least in reasonable amounts - perfectly safe to eat.
Your body will do a lot of work on food before it is in the end absorbed. It adds enzymes that break up molecular bonds. It will use acid on it. You will mash it with physical energy. It will be watered down and mixed and in the end, the molecules will be absorbed by your body.
That doesn't mean that you should eat just about everything, that's not true. But I believe making the connection via "bacteria won't eat that, it's not good" doesn't make a good point.
Your body will do a lot of work on food before it is in the end absorbed. It adds enzymes that break up molecular bonds. It will use acid on it. You will mash it with physical energy. It will be watered down and mixed and in the end, the molecules will be absorbed by your body.
That doesn't mean that you should eat just about everything, that's not true. But I believe making the connection via "bacteria won't eat that, it's not good" doesn't make a good point.
Generally you're either killing _all_ of the bacteria the sealing the product to prevent new ones entering, or creating an environment that's too hostile for them to live (environments high in salt, sugar, acid, or fat, or low in moisture, all make achieve this)
Also, our stomach is full of acid, the purpose of which is to kill bacteria. Later on, in the intestine, you have a colony of microbes.
Pickled or fermented food is very healthy, and shelf stable. We've been doing that for millenia to preserve food.
It's not as simple as you suggest.
Also, our stomach is full of acid, the purpose of which is to kill bacteria. Later on, in the intestine, you have a colony of microbes.
Pickled or fermented food is very healthy, and shelf stable. We've been doing that for millenia to preserve food.
It's not as simple as you suggest.
>But how do they make shelf stable cheesy / creamy products?
pasteurization and keeping further bacteria out is one way to do it
pasteurization and keeping further bacteria out is one way to do it
>Food is eaten in our stomachs by bacteria. If the bacteria in our stomachs can’t (or won’t) eat something, that means it’s not digestible.
Both of these are false. Bacteria are not needed for the proper function of the human stomach (or the small intestine). The human body produces digestive enzymes, HCl and bile (and maybe bicarbonate) which combined will digest most foods without any help from bacteria.
Bacteria are needed in the large intestine to convert fiber into short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs), but a person can live for many years without any of these SCFAs' being produced in the large intestine, although the person probably would be less healthy.
Both of these are false. Bacteria are not needed for the proper function of the human stomach (or the small intestine). The human body produces digestive enzymes, HCl and bile (and maybe bicarbonate) which combined will digest most foods without any help from bacteria.
Bacteria are needed in the large intestine to convert fiber into short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs), but a person can live for many years without any of these SCFAs' being produced in the large intestine, although the person probably would be less healthy.
There’s more and more content these days talking about “the new science of gut bacteria” and talking about how important it is to our health and wellbeing.
Do you think all that is bunk / pseudoscience?
Do you think all that is bunk / pseudoscience?
Gut bacteria in the large intestine are generally considered (including by me) important for human health although again you would not starve to death or die of malnutrition if they all went away because the vast majority of the calories a person in the developed world gets are from foods that bacteria is not needed at all to digest and make use of those calories. Our ancestors 1000s of years ago however probably went through lean periods in which most of their nutrition came from very fibrous plant material with very little starches and free sugars in them, and in that situation, the calories from the SCFAs produced by gut bacteria might have often made the difference between survival and starving to death.
We don't digest food exclusively with bacteria. They play a role, of course, but our digestion is done through things with hydrochloric acid and various enzymes produced by the stomach. The bacteria in our stomach is pretty much strains that can both survive the acidic environment and can consume things we cannot digest at all. Various fibers, for example. They help as they consume it and shit out stuff we can digest. Often the things they consume that are indigestible to us are the result of our own breakdown of other compounds; making the process symbiotic.
Also, the environment on a kitchen counter is wildly different than the environment inside out stomach, so airborne bacteria- even if we were to presume these were the exact same kinds of bacteria present in our stomach - being uninterested in foods in the open air doesn't really translate to the idea that the food is indigestible. Many gut bacteria rely on us to break down foods into the things that they can digest, so a colony couldn't start on the surface of the same food(s) in the open air.
Also, the environment on a kitchen counter is wildly different than the environment inside out stomach, so airborne bacteria- even if we were to presume these were the exact same kinds of bacteria present in our stomach - being uninterested in foods in the open air doesn't really translate to the idea that the food is indigestible. Many gut bacteria rely on us to break down foods into the things that they can digest, so a colony couldn't start on the surface of the same food(s) in the open air.
Yeah no this is nonsense powdered by pseudoscience and a wrong premise. Food is not eaten in our stomachs by bacteria, please look up some basic biology and consider correcting your post accordingly. At least your incorrect post isn't dangerous per se.
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bananas are a socioeconomic catastrophe
Natamycin was discovered in 1955 has been widely used as a food preservative ever since.
Especially cheese and bread, but also fruit, meat and peanuts.
Typically adds between 1 week and 1 month of shelf life to products in the typical doses
Especially cheese and bread, but also fruit, meat and peanuts.
Typically adds between 1 week and 1 month of shelf life to products in the typical doses
Given our developing understanding of the importance of the human microbiome, which includes fungi (the mycobiome), I steer clear of anti fungal preservatives in my food personally.
Just because something has been used since 1955 doesn't mean it's all good.
Just because something has been used since 1955 doesn't mean it's all good.
All the more reason to Make America Grate Again..
I'm here all night folks.
I'm here all night folks.
Cheesy jokes on Hacker News? I approve.
Antifungal resistance is actually a thing. Fungi can evolve or acquire resistance mechanisms against antifungals, just like bacteria and antibiotics.
Arguably it's an even bigger problem than antibiotic resistance: fungi are eukaryotes, just like us, and in practice this means we have less chemical weapons to fight them with. Losing the relatively small arsenal we have would be quite bothersome to say the least.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5587015/
Arguably it's an even bigger problem than antibiotic resistance: fungi are eukaryotes, just like us, and in practice this means we have less chemical weapons to fight them with. Losing the relatively small arsenal we have would be quite bothersome to say the least.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5587015/
Now you have me wondering if natamycin could be useful as an anti-fungal pesticide in my vineyard/orchard :-)
It might not be good for the fungi in the tree roots.
Very intense fungicides are sprayed all over these places already. Though most of them break down in sunlight and rain after a couple days.
Whiskey fungus apparently doesn’t.
If you look, you can still find shredded cheeses without this, but it's usually pretty rare now.
>If you look, you can still find shredded cheeses without this, but it's usually pretty rare now.
You're quite correct. Thankfully, my local has me covered with that![0][1]
The stuff without preservatives definitely doesn't last as long, but the difference in taste/texture makes all the difference.
[0] https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-87892
[1] https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-89151
Edit: Fixed link formatting.
You're quite correct. Thankfully, my local has me covered with that![0][1]
The stuff without preservatives definitely doesn't last as long, but the difference in taste/texture makes all the difference.
[0] https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-87892
[1] https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-89151
Edit: Fixed link formatting.
"True, fungi cannot survive if its host's internal temperature is over 94 degrees," says Neuman. "Currently, there are no reasons for fungi to evolve to withstand higher temperatures. But what if that were to change? What if, for instance, the world were to get slightly warmer? Now there is reason to evolve."
Fungi can grow inside the body. A man who was used to injecting heroin decided to try magic mushrooms. So, he expected the high to be better if he injected them too.
https://www.livescience.com/magic-mushroom-injection-case-re...
https://www.vice.com/en/article/man-injects-magic-mushrooms-...
https://www.livescience.com/magic-mushroom-injection-case-re...
https://www.vice.com/en/article/man-injects-magic-mushrooms-...
Google. "systemic mycoses" or "mycosis internal organs". It isn't just the {lungs, skin, mouth, throat, urinary tract} that can grow molds or yeasts.
A few related medical words: Cryptococcal meningitis, Mucormycosis, Blastomycosis, Histoplasmosis.
Hopefully your brain is warmer than 34°C - perhaps avoid trusting zombie HBO shows for medical knowledge.
I'm guessing they were riffing on the zombie-ant fungus: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis
A few related medical words: Cryptococcal meningitis, Mucormycosis, Blastomycosis, Histoplasmosis.
Hopefully your brain is warmer than 34°C - perhaps avoid trusting zombie HBO shows for medical knowledge.
I'm guessing they were riffing on the zombie-ant fungus: https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis
Thanks for reminding me to rewatch it before the new season comes out (soon).
When you're re-watching the first episode of the first season, look out for the bearded guy in the map room with Merle Dandridge that's upset because everyone died, that's me. :)
I got a call to be an extra and figured what the heck, was totally worth it. Got to very briefly meet Craig Mazin too.
I got a call to be an extra and figured what the heck, was totally worth it. Got to very briefly meet Craig Mazin too.
Congrats! I love that the producers worked so closely with the game’s creators. It really shows.
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It seems wrong to me that most of what people now call cheese is not at all like what I think of as "real cheese". I have ended up making cheese and it is both fascinating, productive and tasty. While there are many "recipes" for cheeses, they are mainly focused on preparing the cheese for aging. These are often techniques, like washing the curd (gouda) or cheddaring (cheddar).
The aging part takes more work. I converted a 7.5 CU refrigerator using an Inkbird temp controller. That works surprisingly well. Currently I'm attempting to improve the humidity control with a humidity version of the Inkbird.
But highly recommended. I have everything I made (even the failures) with the exception of one of the first attempts.
The aging part takes more work. I converted a 7.5 CU refrigerator using an Inkbird temp controller. That works surprisingly well. Currently I'm attempting to improve the humidity control with a humidity version of the Inkbird.
But highly recommended. I have everything I made (even the failures) with the exception of one of the first attempts.
> It seems wrong to me that most of what people now call cheese is not at all like what I think of as "real cheese"
Not sure at all what you’re referring to. Surely it’s not “american cheese”, which has been the punchline of obvious cheese jokes for decades. Or the powder in mac & cheese boxes, which is its own thing.
From where I stand, I see grocery stores in the USA stocking large varieties of cheddars, fontina, gouda… all “real cheese.”
Not sure at all what you’re referring to. Surely it’s not “american cheese”, which has been the punchline of obvious cheese jokes for decades. Or the powder in mac & cheese boxes, which is its own thing.
From where I stand, I see grocery stores in the USA stocking large varieties of cheddars, fontina, gouda… all “real cheese.”
In the USA the main problem is everything has to be pasteurised which rules out many "real" cheeses like camembert.
There's a whole concept of "farmer's cheese"- quickly prepared from pressing whey, minimal preservation- intended for nearly immediate consumption. Cottage cheese, queso fresco, paneer, ricotta, are all examples... then of course you have brined cheeses... feta, etc...
What do you think of as "real cheese"?
In Europe, and at gourmet cheese stores, you get a slice from a wheel. It is alive, in the sense that it has not been "treated" to increase shelf life. A wheel of cheese is like a little biome or green house or garden in a bottle. The rind of the cheese is the wall. It allows the cheese to breathe, but in a way that preserves the life inside it. Once the wheel is cut, the bottle is broken, and while the cheese can be kept for a time, it will start to degrade. The humidity (~80-85 %) is important so the cheese does not dry out and it does not become a nice home for unwanted mold, bacteria and fungus. The temp of ~55 F is also important so that the little things can live but don't start over growing.
If it comes from a wheel where it was aged, almost any cheese is good - depending on your particular taste. The aged ones with crystals are great, especially Dutch ones, but "local" cheese is almost always wonderful.
I was in Colby, Wisconsin a couple of times and I found the local Colby cheese to be good. Many locally made cheese are good, but again if they are bagged in plastic then they do not compare with the "real" thing.
If it comes from a wheel where it was aged, almost any cheese is good - depending on your particular taste. The aged ones with crystals are great, especially Dutch ones, but "local" cheese is almost always wonderful.
I was in Colby, Wisconsin a couple of times and I found the local Colby cheese to be good. Many locally made cheese are good, but again if they are bagged in plastic then they do not compare with the "real" thing.
While I don't doubt that getting fresh cheese cut from the wheel is optimal, cheese bagged in plastic hasn't been "treated" to increase shelf life besides being put in plastic - which presumably also preserves the cheese at its existing humidity.
It's not like the act of putting cheese in plastic instantaneously alters it.
It's not like the act of putting cheese in plastic instantaneously alters it.
Until early adulthood the only cheese I really knew was kraft slices, kraft parmesan powder, bags of pre-shredded, etc. Literally buying cheese by the block turned my world upside down
These "most" people might be country specific.
I make cheese myself (both fresh and year-long aged ones) and virtually all the people I met knew what real cheese was.
If it is the "ultra-processed" cheese what you are referring to, that might not be liked by some but that's still cheese, regardless of its plastic-y feel.
I make cheese myself (both fresh and year-long aged ones) and virtually all the people I met knew what real cheese was.
If it is the "ultra-processed" cheese what you are referring to, that might not be liked by some but that's still cheese, regardless of its plastic-y feel.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
This is something I’ve been curious about. Can you speak more about how you got into it? What kind of research did you do before getting started? Did you know anyone else who had done it before you got into it?
This is something I’ve been curious about. Can you speak more about how you got into it? What kind of research did you do before getting started? Did you know anyone else who had done it before you got into it?
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joss82(1)
The Kingdom of Cheese is a climate-controlled enclave with just cheese - the person there is happy to help you decide because they know you'll be back eventually as indeed the products there have those crystals.