Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers of gas stoves(qz.com)
qz.com
Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers of gas stoves
https://qz.com/1941254/experts-are-sounding-the-alarm-about-the-dangers-of-gas-stoves/
359 comments
> I noticed a substantial improvement in my health when I started putting HEPA air filters all over my house, and another jump when I moved away from a major road.
Same for me when I moved out of a stuffy old high-rise in Philadelphia. I had frequent coughs and wheezing, shortness of breath, and just lots of general discomfort with breathing. Every time I washed my car there was a thick black layer of soot covering it within a couple days, so I'm sure that was doing great things for my lungs. Also got a couple serious colds every year when I lived there. That was as a 20-something who never smoked, didn't have asthma and wasn't overweight.
Living in the suburbs now and haven't had an issue since moving.
Same for me when I moved out of a stuffy old high-rise in Philadelphia. I had frequent coughs and wheezing, shortness of breath, and just lots of general discomfort with breathing. Every time I washed my car there was a thick black layer of soot covering it within a couple days, so I'm sure that was doing great things for my lungs. Also got a couple serious colds every year when I lived there. That was as a 20-something who never smoked, didn't have asthma and wasn't overweight.
Living in the suburbs now and haven't had an issue since moving.
Air quality and health are quite significant in predicting COVID mortality on a neighborhood by neighborhood basis, too. Environmental air quality -- socioeconomic status -- health outcomes (and more) are tied in a very complex network with a lot of reinforcing cycles. I don't know what the distribution of stove type by income level is, but I do have the impression that richer Americans are more likely to have fancy induction ranges, and poorer Americans are more likely to use gas.
Annoying as I certainly find gas more pleasant to cook with.
Annoying as I certainly find gas more pleasant to cook with.
> I don't know what the distribution of stove type by income level is, but I do have the impression that richer Americans are more likely to have fancy induction ranges, and poorer Americans are more likely to use gas.
At a high enough income level you are right that kitchens separate the oven and stove. However you'd be surprised how many high end kitchens will use a gas stove because it's often a better and more versatile cooking tool, plus natural gas is something America has a lot of and is very cheap compared to the Russian gas that many Europeans have to deal with.
Also, the poorest of Americans will use electric ranges almost universally because we can make electric ranges for the same or less than a gas range and the poorest of people live in places that don't even get natural gas copper piped through their place. They would just live without it and have electricity only.
At a high enough income level you are right that kitchens separate the oven and stove. However you'd be surprised how many high end kitchens will use a gas stove because it's often a better and more versatile cooking tool, plus natural gas is something America has a lot of and is very cheap compared to the Russian gas that many Europeans have to deal with.
Also, the poorest of Americans will use electric ranges almost universally because we can make electric ranges for the same or less than a gas range and the poorest of people live in places that don't even get natural gas copper piped through their place. They would just live without it and have electricity only.
>However you'd be surprised how many high end kitchens will use a gas stove because it's often a better and more versatile cooking tool,
Since I switched to induction i think it's the best technology. Yes, you need specific pans, but all the good ones are induction ready anyway.
Besides that, it's safe like any electric, can be fast heating like gas, is more efficient than standard electric, and the oven plates don't burn you for more than a minute after taking off the hot pan or pot (since the vessel is heated, not the glass plate).
It's seriously the best way to cook now, and it has gotten quite affordable.
Since I switched to induction i think it's the best technology. Yes, you need specific pans, but all the good ones are induction ready anyway.
Besides that, it's safe like any electric, can be fast heating like gas, is more efficient than standard electric, and the oven plates don't burn you for more than a minute after taking off the hot pan or pot (since the vessel is heated, not the glass plate).
It's seriously the best way to cook now, and it has gotten quite affordable.
I had gas at my previous place, but when we moved into this house it did not have gas inside. So when we replaced the stove we went with induction. Its amazing, and heats faster than our previous gas stove. There is no loss from heating the air around the bottom of the pan, and you can pump a surprising amount of heat out real fast with induction.
Was also surprised to find out that it is actually the more economical choice for us as well. We can only do propane, and not natural gas, and its a lot more expensive, so it works out nicely.
Don't want to go back to anything other than induction at this point.
Was also surprised to find out that it is actually the more economical choice for us as well. We can only do propane, and not natural gas, and its a lot more expensive, so it works out nicely.
Don't want to go back to anything other than induction at this point.
"The demand for natural gas has declined in Europe during the 2010–2013 period largely due to the 2008 financial crisis and the subsequent recession and the migration of manufacturing industry to other world regions, but the lack of population growth and high prices have also contributed to the effect. Although there is currently an oversupply in the market, the trend has already reversed. Asia continuously diverts the LNG production surplus, while the US shale gas with its high variable cost and high sensitivity to LNG market prices cannot currently compete with the cheap Russian gas. The International Energy Agency (2017) forecasts flat demand and an average annual decline of −2.5%for European production. This amounts up to 34 bcm deficit in the 2017–2022 period and possible more in the future. Nord Stream 2 aims to close this gap."
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342533629_The_impac...
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342533629_The_impac...
I always thought poor americans couldn't afford general cooking ingredients and end up eating a lot of fastfood?
Fast food in the US is significantly more expensive than preparing your own food from basic ingredients. There may be some lower-income people who eat lots of fast food, but it's certainly not because it's the economical choice.
Learning to cook economically and edibly is a barrier to entry. And there's an ongoing higher time-cost per meal due to planning meals, getting ingredients, and (finally) cooking. So it's not suuuper surprising to me that people working 2+ jobs to cover basics end up eating a lot of fast food.
Cost is one problem. Availability is another: fresh produce takes up a lot of space, and the kinds of supermarkets that carry them don't want to move into poor neighborhoods.
Another is time: minimum wage for a 40 hour work week earns you less than $15,000 a year (in the US). So many working poor are working more than 40 hour weeks, and can't take the time to cook, even if they can afford and obtain ingredients. Fast food is cheap, available, and fast.
Another is time: minimum wage for a 40 hour work week earns you less than $15,000 a year (in the US). So many working poor are working more than 40 hour weeks, and can't take the time to cook, even if they can afford and obtain ingredients. Fast food is cheap, available, and fast.
Sadly, no. I ended up in a tough situation in college (someone bailed on housing part way through the semester), and I cut out fast food entirely. Take for example, the ubiquitous Big Mac meal, A drink, a burger, and fries for $5.99 (plus tax). You can assemble that your self (sans fries, maybe a salad instead) for probably $3 even. You can save up to 40% buying ground beef in larger "family packs", getting super cheap store-brand bread and buns helps stretch your money a bit more. Getting vegetables in bulk packs from places like Costco can save you money, that was pretty life changing to discover. When you really look at it, there's probably $2.50 of labor built into every fast food meal that you can save by cooking for yourself.
It’s a time/energy issue more than a cost issue. General cooking ingredients are dirt cheap here. But finding time to cook while working multiple part time jobs isn’t as easy.
Cost for fresh food or even just generic ingredients in the US is crazy low. I'm in Canada but am from the US and there is a non-trivial cost difference in things like milk and veggies.
Bigger problem is that low-income folks don't have the time, the access, or the urge -- marketing aimed at low-income folks works as well as on any demographic -- so they miss out.
If you're working 49 hours a week in 2 jobs and taking the bus home, are you gonna have the time to make steel cut oats and organic quinoa with mushroom broth, or are you going to hit the easiest thing on the way home, aka a quick burger at McD's? Quinoa ain't bad, but it doesn't hit the spot a the way a burger does either.
Bigger problem is that low-income folks don't have the time, the access, or the urge -- marketing aimed at low-income folks works as well as on any demographic -- so they miss out.
If you're working 49 hours a week in 2 jobs and taking the bus home, are you gonna have the time to make steel cut oats and organic quinoa with mushroom broth, or are you going to hit the easiest thing on the way home, aka a quick burger at McD's? Quinoa ain't bad, but it doesn't hit the spot a the way a burger does either.
Fast food is an expensive luxury to poor Americans who would live on generically branded large bags of frozen goods that are heated in an electric oven or microwave.
If we're talking the cheapest and worst food habits of the poorest, we're talking lots of ramen and tons of frozen foods. You can get big bags of frozen french fries for way cheaper than fast food. $3 gets you a fry at McDonalds or a 2 pound bag of frozen generic.
Fast food would be the luxury version lol.
If we're talking the cheapest and worst food habits of the poorest, we're talking lots of ramen and tons of frozen foods. You can get big bags of frozen french fries for way cheaper than fast food. $3 gets you a fry at McDonalds or a 2 pound bag of frozen generic.
Fast food would be the luxury version lol.
When I think of a cheap apartment I imagine a stove with electric resistive coils.
Indeed. The only rentals with gas stoves are either the high-end market, or legacy housing stock probably 50+ years old.
Any lower/middle class oriented apartments I've seen built in the past 30 years in my area at least have all been electric.
Also spent a lot of my 20's in cheap apartments, and never had anything more than an electric coil stove.
Any lower/middle class oriented apartments I've seen built in the past 30 years in my area at least have all been electric.
Also spent a lot of my 20's in cheap apartments, and never had anything more than an electric coil stove.
>legacy housing stock probably 50+ years old
My first apartment out of college was an absolute trash heap. I lived in a studio, which had clearly at one point been a 1 br until someone put a wall in the middle of it to create 2 studios. Only two positive aspects about that place was the fact that it had a brand new gas stove, and that whoever had put up the wall failed to create a new electric circut for the studio, so my neighbor paid my electric bill for the year I was there :)
My first apartment out of college was an absolute trash heap. I lived in a studio, which had clearly at one point been a 1 br until someone put a wall in the middle of it to create 2 studios. Only two positive aspects about that place was the fact that it had a brand new gas stove, and that whoever had put up the wall failed to create a new electric circut for the studio, so my neighbor paid my electric bill for the year I was there :)
I'd say also geographic. Japan/Philippines have gas stoves vs electric simply because it is cheaper, reliable and not every house in the Philippines has electricity...
Ye olde grand cities new stock of apartments has gas, so Chicago, NYC, simply because it's already wired and can be cheaper than electricity in winter.
Ye olde grand cities new stock of apartments has gas, so Chicago, NYC, simply because it's already wired and can be cheaper than electricity in winter.
When I think of a fancy kitchen I think of an induction stove. It puts the least heat into the air since it heats the pan directly, its incredibly easy to clean because its a flat surface, it looks great because it can blend into the counter, and its absolutely the fastest way to boil a pot of water.
> Annoying as I certainly find gas more pleasant to cook with.
Induction gives you most of the benefits, without the hazards described in the article, or the same risks of fire and explosion.
Also, better induction cookers have useful enhancements such as "hold my pot at 85 degrees" or "hold my fry pan at 180 degrees".
Induction gives you most of the benefits, without the hazards described in the article, or the same risks of fire and explosion.
Also, better induction cookers have useful enhancements such as "hold my pot at 85 degrees" or "hold my fry pan at 180 degrees".
I grew up with electric, and I've used gas a fair bit in my adult life. I feel like if I could choose only one, induction would be the winner for almost everything. The one exception I can think of is my wok - I'd have to start using a flat bottomed wok, and couldn't tilt it to move the heat onto the side, or lift it a few inches to lower the heat level.
> in Philadelphia ... Every time I washed my car there was a thick black layer of soot covering it within a couple days
A layer of soot in Philadelphia? I've spent plenty of time there, know plenty who live there, and never saw or heard of such a thing. Were you parking next to a chimney sweep?
A layer of soot in Philadelphia? I've spent plenty of time there, know plenty who live there, and never saw or heard of such a thing. Were you parking next to a chimney sweep?
New homes have ERVs or HRVs and some have ventilating dehumidifiers. You could put an AQI sensor on it to run them as needed but generally they are either timed per hour and on a humidistat. New homes also have to have gas appliances (except for the stove) with their own air intake and powered exhaust.
All gas stoves should be below a hood with a ducted outside vent, the more powerful the better.
All gas stoves should be below a hood with a ducted outside vent, the more powerful the better.
What part of the country are you in, and what price range, where new homes have ERV or HRV installed?
I'm in Kansas City, and even into the $650k range, houses only VERY rarely are built with them.
I'm in Kansas City, and even into the $650k range, houses only VERY rarely are built with them.
20 years ago the building code in MN required them, or some other form of ventilation. (leaving the bathroom fan on constantly would probably meet the letter of the law, but no contractor I know of was willing to try to get past the inspectors). Different states have different codes, so and I am not up to date on what the latest is anywhere anymore.
A lot of places building codes "require them" at a high level, and then more local building codes strike provisions like this, or provide "alternate paths" to legality. It's disgusting.
Like around here, the building code in one city requires a certain blower door score to pass. But doesn't require blower door testing if you say you followed certain "sufficient" practices. There's no way most of these houses would achieve a sufficient blower door test score, but they all "comply with code".
Like around here, the building code in one city requires a certain blower door score to pass. But doesn't require blower door testing if you say you followed certain "sufficient" practices. There's no way most of these houses would achieve a sufficient blower door test score, but they all "comply with code".
I'm not familiar with those acronyms. Googling suggests ERV = Energy Recovery Ventilator [0] and HRV = Heat Recovery Ventilator [1]. Wikipedia says these are mostly about energy efficiency but also have air quality benefits. It's not clear to me how this helps with indoor air quality - maybe better humidity and temperature regulation?
They also seem to require a centralized air conditioning/heating system. That would give you a nice central place to put an air quality monitor. The big challenge though is that often these central systems don't process all air in the building evenly. Multi-zone systems help.
1000% agree on the venting. It occurs to me that I have some gas heaters that I should double-check the venting on... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_recovery_ventilation
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation
They also seem to require a centralized air conditioning/heating system. That would give you a nice central place to put an air quality monitor. The big challenge though is that often these central systems don't process all air in the building evenly. Multi-zone systems help.
1000% agree on the venting. It occurs to me that I have some gas heaters that I should double-check the venting on... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_recovery_ventilation
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation
Having a heat exchanger let’s you exchange large quantities of outside air with indoor air at minimal costs. Trading 70f indoor air with -30f outside air is bad, moving heat between them means could be venting air closer to -10f and only need to heat the new air from 50f to 70f
You still want a quality filter and humidity is an issue in some areas, but overall they can make a huge difference.
You still want a quality filter and humidity is an issue in some areas, but overall they can make a huge difference.
Wouldn't a heat exchanger top out at equalizing the inward and outward bound air at 20F in this case?
The idea is "countercurrent exchange": the incoming air and outgoing air travel in opposite directions through the heat exchanger. The result is that most of the heat gets transferred.
At the end of the exchanger, the warmed incoming air is in contact with 70° outgoing air, so it will be at almost 70°. Similarly, the outgoing air will be at almost -10° as it exits.
It will probably make more sense if you look at the diagram: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countercurrent_exchange
At the end of the exchanger, the warmed incoming air is in contact with 70° outgoing air, so it will be at almost 70°. Similarly, the outgoing air will be at almost -10° as it exits.
It will probably make more sense if you look at the diagram: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countercurrent_exchange
Fun fact: "An example of countercurrent heat exchange occurs in the feet of penguins, in which heat from blood in the arteries supplying the feet is transferred to blood returning to the body's core in veins that lie close to these arteries."
No. Imagine that your heat exchanger is simply two touching pipes running parallel to each other, with flows in opposite directions. Incoming air will gradually warm up as it comes inwards, eventually being warmed by the air which has just left the room. You can get a much better result than just averaging the temperatures.
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They are called air exchangers, basically the replace indoor air with outside air but pre-heat the outdoor air using a heat exchanger off the indoor air. So AQI definitely improves when they are run.
My house basically has a natural set point that the exchanger runs at per season. Much like my thermostat I can basically leave it at a setting for a season and it works well.
There are a few days I may have to slightly adjust things, usually when there's a big temp swing, so if it were more automated that'd be better but in general I have to maintain conditioned air in both the winter and summer to keep the house stable... and the house seems happier for it.
My house basically has a natural set point that the exchanger runs at per season. Much like my thermostat I can basically leave it at a setting for a season and it works well.
There are a few days I may have to slightly adjust things, usually when there's a big temp swing, so if it were more automated that'd be better but in general I have to maintain conditioned air in both the winter and summer to keep the house stable... and the house seems happier for it.
One can install HRVs and ERVs with no centralized system. We have, oh, three heat sources and half an AC in our house (old house) and can install a freestanding HRV or ERV simply as an air exchange (bringing in fresh air and letting out stale air). As we live in a cold climate, we're working out what we need in terms of HRV vs ERV. It seems like a slightly better solution than "leave the upstairs window cracked" which is what we do now.
New homes have ERVs or HRVs
What country are you in? I'm in the US and my nice home, built in 2015, doesn't have either one.
What country are you in? I'm in the US and my nice home, built in 2015, doesn't have either one.
As far as I know they only put them in the super expensive houses that are made extremely tight. If they use spray foam insulation then there is very little air circulation so that they need to add an ERV just to get enough air to breath.
Check your code requirements. I am in the USA and they are required, but I am in the north where we have very cold winters and humid summers. You should consider putting one in if you don't have one.
I'm in Pennsylvania! But maybe that's not north enough for them to be required.
> All gas stoves should be below a hood with a ducted outside vent, the more powerful the better.
To my understanding, installing a very powerful stove hood in a tightly sealed house without proper consideration for a make-up air intake can cause problems (i.e. backdrafts in the exhausts for gas fired water heaters), especially in concert with other things venting outside like a clothes dryer. It's very possible to have it done right, but a pretty bad situation if done wrong.
To my understanding, installing a very powerful stove hood in a tightly sealed house without proper consideration for a make-up air intake can cause problems (i.e. backdrafts in the exhausts for gas fired water heaters), especially in concert with other things venting outside like a clothes dryer. It's very possible to have it done right, but a pretty bad situation if done wrong.
Newer gas fired water heaters (mine is 10yr old) with closed chamber have special chimneys where your exhaust and intake go through double walled pipe with counterflow, which helps with energy recovery (exhaust goes through inside pipe, fresh air goes in outside pipe and gets heated by exhaust gases). That also means you don't need to have proper intake where the heater is (but there still needs to be some ventilation).
Yep, it is subject to building code requirements. This is why installing ducted vent hoods usually requires a permit etc...
> All gas stoves should be below a hood with a ducted outside vent, the more powerful the better.
The best part is how many "down draft" vents are put into place, even new luxury construction.
They look nice, but don't do much...
The best part is how many "down draft" vents are put into place, even new luxury construction.
They look nice, but don't do much...
Are there any quality brands that have a vent that can be directed outdoors? We're renovating our kitchen in the next year and are planning on doing this, but haven't had any luck finding a natural gas stove which is made to vent outdoors.
I don't have counter evidence on hand but assuming the oven is vented outdoors, my understanding is that a hood should be relatively low-powered, not high, in order to then capture emissions from the stove top. It should be a function of size, height from the stove top, noise constraints, etc.
I don't have counter evidence on hand but assuming the oven is vented outdoors, my understanding is that a hood should be relatively low-powered, not high, in order to then capture emissions from the stove top. It should be a function of size, height from the stove top, noise constraints, etc.
You can calculate the minimum CFM required to vent your stove top and oven based on BTUs and room size. Your CFM calculation will also inform duct size and make up air requirements. Lots of sites do this but here's one.
https://www.prolinerangehoods.com/blog/cfm-need-range-hood/
You can vent both the gas oven and the stove separately. You have to buy high end appliances for that. I've seen them but can't remember.. maybe a Viking stove or something prosumer-commercial. Make up air can be a cracked window or a separate intake duct that opens up when the vent is turned on. Your local building code will have specific requirements.
You can duct a hood out of an external wall or even better out of the roof. If you go with a roof vent you can install the extractor fans in the duct in the attic which helps reduce noise if that's a concern. What you can do will depend on your specific kitchen.
I have found that the stove top is worse than the oven for emissions. The reason is that my exhaust hood is under-powered and it's a microwave/exhaust combination that doesn't extend over the entire cooking surface. So I would advise a hood larger than the stove top itself, install a larger duct and I would overestimate the CFMs required. If you get a multi-speed range hood then you can adjust it as necessary.
I actually think electric ovens are better combined with a gas stove top. Electric ovens though do have a tendency to fail at inopportune times (e.g. the holidays!)
https://www.prolinerangehoods.com/blog/cfm-need-range-hood/
You can vent both the gas oven and the stove separately. You have to buy high end appliances for that. I've seen them but can't remember.. maybe a Viking stove or something prosumer-commercial. Make up air can be a cracked window or a separate intake duct that opens up when the vent is turned on. Your local building code will have specific requirements.
You can duct a hood out of an external wall or even better out of the roof. If you go with a roof vent you can install the extractor fans in the duct in the attic which helps reduce noise if that's a concern. What you can do will depend on your specific kitchen.
I have found that the stove top is worse than the oven for emissions. The reason is that my exhaust hood is under-powered and it's a microwave/exhaust combination that doesn't extend over the entire cooking surface. So I would advise a hood larger than the stove top itself, install a larger duct and I would overestimate the CFMs required. If you get a multi-speed range hood then you can adjust it as necessary.
I actually think electric ovens are better combined with a gas stove top. Electric ovens though do have a tendency to fail at inopportune times (e.g. the holidays!)
I went down the rabbit hole of air quality testing devices a couple years ago. The bottom line, AFAICT, it is not easy to accurately test air quality cheaply. Whenever I would find a device that claimed to test air quality I would find reviews by people who were testing that device that stated either;
It came miscalibrated from the factory.
OR
After a short period it would no longer be calibrated.
Turns out keeping an air quality testing device calibrated properly is really really hard, and definitely not cheap. So maybe the computing side of this is not really all the difficult, but the physical measurement side of this is absolutely not easy.
Eventually I gave up trying to find a device for my home because I realized I would have to really dig into the science hard, and I would have to spend more money than I was willing. And I was unwilling to do either.
It came miscalibrated from the factory.
OR
After a short period it would no longer be calibrated.
Turns out keeping an air quality testing device calibrated properly is really really hard, and definitely not cheap. So maybe the computing side of this is not really all the difficult, but the physical measurement side of this is absolutely not easy.
Eventually I gave up trying to find a device for my home because I realized I would have to really dig into the science hard, and I would have to spend more money than I was willing. And I was unwilling to do either.
I've not worked specifically with contaminant sensors, but I know oxygen sensors require very specific and very consistent flow rates across the element. The type I've worked with used a ceramic element which absorbs oxygen and changes resistance as a result. So increased or decreased oxygen results in increased or decreased resistance.
Using a sensor like this to measure percent of oxygen in a gas requires you to eliminate a lot of confounding effects like pressure waves, flow changes, etc.. Basically you can cause the sensor to absorb more oxygen than is present in the gas by temporarily increasing flow.
So if you're building an air quality sensor you have to pay very close attention to how the air moves through the sensor. That requires not just a calibration but also characterization of the flow through the system under environmental conditions.
One other effect I could see is a contaminant sensor becoming fouled. Oxygen sensors can become fouled and report inaccurate values, which is why it's very important to control the inputs.
This is one of the reasons an antifreeze leak in an engine block can cause your engine performance to go to crap. The oxygen sensor is part of how a stoichiometric ratio of fuel and air is maintained, by monitoring the combustion products for excess oxygen. So when it gets fouled either the ceramic element is damaged or the sensor stops receiving consistent flow and the resistance relationship ceases to be valid.
In short I don't see how you could build a useful long-lasting sensor by just buying parts off Amazon or Digikey and throwing them together. You would have to treat it like a scientific instrument, meaning that you have to validate your assumptions about how the sensor performs and I doubt that most of the products on Amazon do that.
Using a sensor like this to measure percent of oxygen in a gas requires you to eliminate a lot of confounding effects like pressure waves, flow changes, etc.. Basically you can cause the sensor to absorb more oxygen than is present in the gas by temporarily increasing flow.
So if you're building an air quality sensor you have to pay very close attention to how the air moves through the sensor. That requires not just a calibration but also characterization of the flow through the system under environmental conditions.
One other effect I could see is a contaminant sensor becoming fouled. Oxygen sensors can become fouled and report inaccurate values, which is why it's very important to control the inputs.
This is one of the reasons an antifreeze leak in an engine block can cause your engine performance to go to crap. The oxygen sensor is part of how a stoichiometric ratio of fuel and air is maintained, by monitoring the combustion products for excess oxygen. So when it gets fouled either the ceramic element is damaged or the sensor stops receiving consistent flow and the resistance relationship ceases to be valid.
In short I don't see how you could build a useful long-lasting sensor by just buying parts off Amazon or Digikey and throwing them together. You would have to treat it like a scientific instrument, meaning that you have to validate your assumptions about how the sensor performs and I doubt that most of the products on Amazon do that.
> It seems like this is an area where IoT should really deliver the goods. I should be able to cheaply add networked sensors
I think you're going the wrong way. These problems were caused by trying to artificially exert control over a complex environment. Similar to trying to "manage" a natural environment, each effort results in 2 more side-effects which each then need their own "management". On the other hand, some modern "management" techniques are to simply re-introduce nature to an environment and letting it self-manage. This ends up with better ecological health as well as less cost and complexity. But we have to let go of whatever weird human-specific desire caused us to mismanage it the first time.
Why do we need carbon monoxide monitors? Because carbon monoxide builds up, because gas-powered devices and heat exchangers live inside the sealed home. Put them outside the home and the problem is solved, no technological solutions necessary.
A properly designed home can also avoid things like vapor barriers, reduce dependence on air conditioning and heating, avoid mold and mildew, and require less maintenance. But if we insist on working within existing home designs, there's a constant requirement for new fixes for the new problems we introduce.
I think you're going the wrong way. These problems were caused by trying to artificially exert control over a complex environment. Similar to trying to "manage" a natural environment, each effort results in 2 more side-effects which each then need their own "management". On the other hand, some modern "management" techniques are to simply re-introduce nature to an environment and letting it self-manage. This ends up with better ecological health as well as less cost and complexity. But we have to let go of whatever weird human-specific desire caused us to mismanage it the first time.
Why do we need carbon monoxide monitors? Because carbon monoxide builds up, because gas-powered devices and heat exchangers live inside the sealed home. Put them outside the home and the problem is solved, no technological solutions necessary.
A properly designed home can also avoid things like vapor barriers, reduce dependence on air conditioning and heating, avoid mold and mildew, and require less maintenance. But if we insist on working within existing home designs, there's a constant requirement for new fixes for the new problems we introduce.
This is a great idea. Do you know of any further reading on fundamentally redesigning housing in practical ways?
Sadly I don't have reading suggestions. I've kind of gathered details over time.
My own "redesign" is just to look at how homes used to work. Wattle and daub, hogan, pueblo, timber frame, log cabin, long house, clochán, crannog, igloo, walpini, adobe, brick. They each have pros and cons, but they work best for where they were built and the needs of the people that lived there. They adapted solutions for heating/cooling, pest control, weather resistance, cooking, storage, etc that fit their purpose. As far as I know, none of these homes ever had to deal with annoyances like mold or carbon monoxide. But then again the downsides could be severe in densely-populated urban areas; entire cities could be razed overnight by fire and strong winds!
Before modern homes were redesigned to take advantage of supply chain efficiencies, timber frame and stone foundation were common in the US. Before air conditioning, homes were designed for where they sat to take the seasons into account. A central corridor of air could be funneled by opening doors or windows on either side of the house, rapidly cooling or heating it, and windows and shutters could lock in whatever the temperature was - but this would be a bad idea on a humid day! A stone foundation acted as a mini thermal battery, and some building materials were incredibly good insulators. Also common were fireplaces and living quarters in the center of the home; shut all the doors to keep your room toasty warm, or open them up to warm the house for company. There was no vapor barrier, no sheeting; just nail some shingles to the frame and stuff whatever you can into the walls for insulation, or build walls out of a composite like mud and stick. In wet, hot areas, you had lots of porches and big awnings so you could stay outside with a fan in the shade.
There's many other old-school techniques we could be using, but then homes become more expensive as no contractor knows how to build them, or we've literally done away with all the natural resources and now they have to be acquired at great expense. Not to mention of course, zoning might have made it all illegal anyway. In many ways we've engineered ourselves into a corner.
My own "redesign" is just to look at how homes used to work. Wattle and daub, hogan, pueblo, timber frame, log cabin, long house, clochán, crannog, igloo, walpini, adobe, brick. They each have pros and cons, but they work best for where they were built and the needs of the people that lived there. They adapted solutions for heating/cooling, pest control, weather resistance, cooking, storage, etc that fit their purpose. As far as I know, none of these homes ever had to deal with annoyances like mold or carbon monoxide. But then again the downsides could be severe in densely-populated urban areas; entire cities could be razed overnight by fire and strong winds!
Before modern homes were redesigned to take advantage of supply chain efficiencies, timber frame and stone foundation were common in the US. Before air conditioning, homes were designed for where they sat to take the seasons into account. A central corridor of air could be funneled by opening doors or windows on either side of the house, rapidly cooling or heating it, and windows and shutters could lock in whatever the temperature was - but this would be a bad idea on a humid day! A stone foundation acted as a mini thermal battery, and some building materials were incredibly good insulators. Also common were fireplaces and living quarters in the center of the home; shut all the doors to keep your room toasty warm, or open them up to warm the house for company. There was no vapor barrier, no sheeting; just nail some shingles to the frame and stuff whatever you can into the walls for insulation, or build walls out of a composite like mud and stick. In wet, hot areas, you had lots of porches and big awnings so you could stay outside with a fan in the shade.
There's many other old-school techniques we could be using, but then homes become more expensive as no contractor knows how to build them, or we've literally done away with all the natural resources and now they have to be acquired at great expense. Not to mention of course, zoning might have made it all illegal anyway. In many ways we've engineered ourselves into a corner.
Call a pro. AC systems are not DIY. The things you're looking for exist
(and are often mandatory) in the commercial/ non-residential market, but they are not IoT, and they aren't cheap. For instance, most commercial spaces have a MAX value on percentage of recycled air; a minimum amount of air fed into the return must be fresh air drawn from outside.
>should be able to cheaply add networked sensors, fans, filters, and vents
Sensors can be ok... But your homes's AC design, even if based on simple building code lookups, is based on some fairy complex engineering which rely on certain assumptions.
If those assumptions aren't met, the design usually must be approved by a licensed engineer. This is why you don't see more independently controlled vents on the market. No professional is going to install products that don't meet code, unless an engineer has stamped the plans. (Which includes operational logic.)
Ignoring regulations, you shouldn't just add controlled vents to a system (or manually close existing vents) without compensating for that elsewhere. You likely need a variable speed blower, controlled/compensated return air flow, and system logic to control it all.
Will the house blow up if you install them yourself? Probably not. But it could result in a system operating much less efficiently, increase the number of system cycles (reducing system lifetime), cause duct ruptures/leaks due to increased back pressure, and most likely, cause condensation in places other than the condenser, possibly causing mold to grow and/or rot.
Which leaves 2 options: installing a commercial system with the integrated vent control you're looking for, or adding sensors for input for when the system should run, without modification. Biggest simple change you can make for immediate impact? Change your filters every month, even if it means using 12 $3 fiberglass filters instead of 1 $36 hepa filter.
For instance, I run a list of room temps through a simple max function to ensure my AC and/or blower runs until the hottest room falls below the set temperature.
If this results in wildly unbalanced temps throughout the house, you have a bigger issue, and likely need your system resized/adjusted by a professional.
Related, and because most people don't realize it, your AC is an engine. You want it properly sized and to run constant, when needed. Think of your car: is it more efficient to make a trip by many intermittent 100mph sprints, or driving 55mph without stopping.
Multi stage compressors now act like car transmissions to dynamically "size" the system as needed, but run constantly with minimal stopping.
>should be able to cheaply add networked sensors, fans, filters, and vents
Sensors can be ok... But your homes's AC design, even if based on simple building code lookups, is based on some fairy complex engineering which rely on certain assumptions.
If those assumptions aren't met, the design usually must be approved by a licensed engineer. This is why you don't see more independently controlled vents on the market. No professional is going to install products that don't meet code, unless an engineer has stamped the plans. (Which includes operational logic.)
Ignoring regulations, you shouldn't just add controlled vents to a system (or manually close existing vents) without compensating for that elsewhere. You likely need a variable speed blower, controlled/compensated return air flow, and system logic to control it all.
Will the house blow up if you install them yourself? Probably not. But it could result in a system operating much less efficiently, increase the number of system cycles (reducing system lifetime), cause duct ruptures/leaks due to increased back pressure, and most likely, cause condensation in places other than the condenser, possibly causing mold to grow and/or rot.
Which leaves 2 options: installing a commercial system with the integrated vent control you're looking for, or adding sensors for input for when the system should run, without modification. Biggest simple change you can make for immediate impact? Change your filters every month, even if it means using 12 $3 fiberglass filters instead of 1 $36 hepa filter.
For instance, I run a list of room temps through a simple max function to ensure my AC and/or blower runs until the hottest room falls below the set temperature.
If this results in wildly unbalanced temps throughout the house, you have a bigger issue, and likely need your system resized/adjusted by a professional.
Related, and because most people don't realize it, your AC is an engine. You want it properly sized and to run constant, when needed. Think of your car: is it more efficient to make a trip by many intermittent 100mph sprints, or driving 55mph without stopping.
Multi stage compressors now act like car transmissions to dynamically "size" the system as needed, but run constantly with minimal stopping.
I am in the mid-eastern United States and my experience with professional HVAC technicians has been very poor across several providers.
Most techs I get from companies have been very poorly informed and almost hopeless at "debugging" any performance or functional problem. The operating model seems to simply be to replace parts in a pre-determined "likelihood of failure" model.
I don't blame the techs - I liked most of them but after casual conversation it seems clear that most of them don't get much training.
I guess my main complaint is that while I definitely want to "call a pro" my experience finding a good professional in HVAC (and plumbing for that matter) has not been particularly successful.
And don't get me started on part pricing - I am very happy to pay for knowledge (with high hourly technician costs) but more than once I have had easily purchasable OEM parts massively marked up by HVAC companies in what seems just like price gouging.
Most techs I get from companies have been very poorly informed and almost hopeless at "debugging" any performance or functional problem. The operating model seems to simply be to replace parts in a pre-determined "likelihood of failure" model.
I don't blame the techs - I liked most of them but after casual conversation it seems clear that most of them don't get much training.
I guess my main complaint is that while I definitely want to "call a pro" my experience finding a good professional in HVAC (and plumbing for that matter) has not been particularly successful.
And don't get me started on part pricing - I am very happy to pay for knowledge (with high hourly technician costs) but more than once I have had easily purchasable OEM parts massively marked up by HVAC companies in what seems just like price gouging.
I agree completely. I think HVAC has gotten too complex for a lot of the "hand waving" that HVAC installers have been able to get away with up until now. It actually takes a good amount of pre-planning and research in order to install the proper system that is configured correctly.
Case in point, a few years ago when I was a new homeowner I converted to natural gas from oil and got three quotes from three highly rated companies. All three companies recommended the exact same boiler. A few months ago I started to research the outdoor reset functionality that allows it to change the water temperature based on the outdoor temp. Well, I discovered that the feature is basically useless for me because both of my zones are too small to generate the minimum number of BTUs at lower temperatures. So I have a (up to) 96% efficient boiler that will never be able to reach that efficiency. I either would have needed a smaller boiler and or a buffer tank to be able to work correctly.
Case in point, a few years ago when I was a new homeowner I converted to natural gas from oil and got three quotes from three highly rated companies. All three companies recommended the exact same boiler. A few months ago I started to research the outdoor reset functionality that allows it to change the water temperature based on the outdoor temp. Well, I discovered that the feature is basically useless for me because both of my zones are too small to generate the minimum number of BTUs at lower temperatures. So I have a (up to) 96% efficient boiler that will never be able to reach that efficiency. I either would have needed a smaller boiler and or a buffer tank to be able to work correctly.
I had similar issues in Chicago. My high-efficiency furnace had issues in 2019 when we had -30f weather for a few days. Basically it's a multistage condensing furnace, and on those really cold nights it would fail to kick into the later stages. After failing so many times, it would enter a "reset" mode, where it basically would shut down for 10+ minutes at a time, which isn't great when it's really cold!
In trying to fix it, I had multiple techs come out and none really fixed the issue. These are basically some notes on the experience: - First tech stayed for 6 hours. Cleaned the system, replaced a high pressure switched, and readjusted the PVC in and out takes. The pressure switch alone costed over $500 dollars. He did the PVC for free. The problem persisted after he left. - First tech sent a second guy out the next day. This guy comes in and within 10 minutes recommended replacing my Nest with their "preferred" smart thermostat for a cost of $500. He also wanted to redo my humidifiers water setup ($200), and redo the elbow joint in the condensation output of the furnace ($200). After he quoted me all of that I asked him to leave. I redid the condensation output myself ($15 in parts), and humidifier ($15 in parts). I looked up the high pressure switched they replaced, and was shocked to learn it only costs $150. - I wrote my first Yelp review ever because of this company. They contacted me a day after I posted my review asking me to take it down in exchange for a partial ($300) refund. I agreed. - I had two family friends who do HVAC come out afterwards to look at it. After seeing that it was a high efficiency unit they basically wouldn't touch it. They are older and basically said they never retrained for high-efficiency units. It was never needed because they have more work then they can handle with older units. All they were able to offer was to give me a good deal on replacing it with a less efficient unit if I wanted.
At the end of the day my issue was never fixed. Luckily we haven't had as cold of weather as that week, so the issue hasn't manifested again. If it happens again I honestly will cross my fingers and hope the next company that I use is more helpful then the previous.
In trying to fix it, I had multiple techs come out and none really fixed the issue. These are basically some notes on the experience: - First tech stayed for 6 hours. Cleaned the system, replaced a high pressure switched, and readjusted the PVC in and out takes. The pressure switch alone costed over $500 dollars. He did the PVC for free. The problem persisted after he left. - First tech sent a second guy out the next day. This guy comes in and within 10 minutes recommended replacing my Nest with their "preferred" smart thermostat for a cost of $500. He also wanted to redo my humidifiers water setup ($200), and redo the elbow joint in the condensation output of the furnace ($200). After he quoted me all of that I asked him to leave. I redid the condensation output myself ($15 in parts), and humidifier ($15 in parts). I looked up the high pressure switched they replaced, and was shocked to learn it only costs $150. - I wrote my first Yelp review ever because of this company. They contacted me a day after I posted my review asking me to take it down in exchange for a partial ($300) refund. I agreed. - I had two family friends who do HVAC come out afterwards to look at it. After seeing that it was a high efficiency unit they basically wouldn't touch it. They are older and basically said they never retrained for high-efficiency units. It was never needed because they have more work then they can handle with older units. All they were able to offer was to give me a good deal on replacing it with a less efficient unit if I wanted.
At the end of the day my issue was never fixed. Luckily we haven't had as cold of weather as that week, so the issue hasn't manifested again. If it happens again I honestly will cross my fingers and hope the next company that I use is more helpful then the previous.
Keep your thermostat at 66 to 68 (or whatever temp is comfortable). I disabled all the smart Nest stuff. If you don't have the neutral wire the Nest can cause control board issues as it sips current. I think the battery backup ones are probably the best in retrospect.
If you Google your furnace model you may find you tube videos with similar issues or things to check.
If you Google your furnace model you may find you tube videos with similar issues or things to check.
This is all spot on. The engineering that goes into HVAC systems is under appreciated. When messed up the system that is supposed to give you fresh air can easily become a source of pathogens. You also want filters on ingress and egress (to ensure critters don't have a path into your house), and you want to have a nice fat overdimensioned heat exchanger between the two airstreams to ensure that you're not heating the world instead of your house.
+1 on the rapid change of filters, much better to change a filter frequently even if it is a bit lower performance than to let one sit for too long, but keep an eye on your electricity cost, that is the factor that should decide the quality filter that you purchase and frequently you replace it.
Ground rule: the better the filter, the more it will absorb, the better the chances that something you really don't want lodges there and starts spreading if the filter gets overloaded. Fiberglass filters are a good compromise between energy efficiency and cost, they have excellent working surface compared to their physical size and tend to have a relatively long working life before they 'join the other side' and become a source of contaminants rather than a filter of contaminants.
+1 on the rapid change of filters, much better to change a filter frequently even if it is a bit lower performance than to let one sit for too long, but keep an eye on your electricity cost, that is the factor that should decide the quality filter that you purchase and frequently you replace it.
Ground rule: the better the filter, the more it will absorb, the better the chances that something you really don't want lodges there and starts spreading if the filter gets overloaded. Fiberglass filters are a good compromise between energy efficiency and cost, they have excellent working surface compared to their physical size and tend to have a relatively long working life before they 'join the other side' and become a source of contaminants rather than a filter of contaminants.
> For instance, most commercial spaces have a MAX value on percentage of recycled air; a minimum amount of air fed into the return must be fresh air drawn from outside.
I live in a highrise in SF and this bit me during the wildfires this year. The air conditioning would pull in smoke from outside. I ended up turning it off altogether on the worst AQI days, and buying lots of replacement filters for both the furnace and some off-the-shelf air purifiers.
I live in a highrise in SF and this bit me during the wildfires this year. The air conditioning would pull in smoke from outside. I ended up turning it off altogether on the worst AQI days, and buying lots of replacement filters for both the furnace and some off-the-shelf air purifiers.
Reading from the other side of the pond, heating and electricity in the US seems so fantastically complicated. Where I live, the standard is water radiators for old installations and new. The last 20-30 years or so each radiator has a thermostat. (Bimetal, no electronics.)
That's it.
Somewhere there is a reservoir and something to heat the water. It can be anything, and indeed most older homes have been converted a few times already but nothing changed in the water system itsef. (For a house to have started with a wood furnace, then oil, then electric, then municipial heating or solar or whatever, is completely normal.)
The water either circulates by convection (very old systems), or with a pump. If the pump fails, convection typically still works, just less flow.
That's it.
Somewhere there is a reservoir and something to heat the water. It can be anything, and indeed most older homes have been converted a few times already but nothing changed in the water system itsef. (For a house to have started with a wood furnace, then oil, then electric, then municipial heating or solar or whatever, is completely normal.)
The water either circulates by convection (very old systems), or with a pump. If the pump fails, convection typically still works, just less flow.
If you only need heat, it's a lot less complicated.
But even chilled water systems start to get complicated because of humidity and condensation.
And if you're already installing a forced air HVAC system for the 'AC' part, then installing radiators for heat is usually superfluous.
But even chilled water systems start to get complicated because of humidity and condensation.
And if you're already installing a forced air HVAC system for the 'AC' part, then installing radiators for heat is usually superfluous.
Hey there...I appreciate your comment.
> I started putting HEPA air filters all over my house
Can you very briefly say how you accomplished this? Was it with modified box fans? Thank you!
> I started putting HEPA air filters all over my house
Can you very briefly say how you accomplished this? Was it with modified box fans? Thank you!
Several people have recommend you air purifiers. I would add one thing, look at the price of replacement filters. Air filters are similar to printers in a way. You become tied to a company and have to buy replacement pieces every year or so. Some have bad track record (quick device depreciation because of out of stock filters, etc.)
I purchased several stand-alone Air Purifier appliances for something like $100-200 each [0]. They have two kinds of filters that work in tandem, you replace one every month and the other every three months. It gets expensive to replace all the filters when you have several of them, but they pull a ton of junk out of the air.
[0] https://www.winixamerica.com/product/5300-2/
[0] https://www.winixamerica.com/product/5300-2/
Just a plug for Coway Airmega. I bought the 400, which is expensive, but it was for someone with health issues. I absolutely love it. Super quiet on low speeds and has been about as low maintenance as one could expect. Filters seem to be of exceptionally high quality and overall build is great.
I did this - I just bought things off Amazon. Bissell air220 chunks through most of my apartment, and a couple small ones sit in the "leaf node" rooms
Just buy one and plug it in:
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-air-purifier...
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-air-purifier...
[deleted]
I have an Awair unit and it's fairly inexpensive. I can't vouch for the accuracy, but I saw DHH post about it and compare it other consumer sensors and more "professional" sensors and he recommended it.
One of the main problems is that homes are not built for indoor air quality. Furnaces in crawl spaces or garages, lack of air sealing. You can't just add sensors and fans to fix the problem.
Plus, adding a fan/vent to a home isn't ever going to be cheap. You're talking about cutting the interior and exterior of your house, running ducting and wiring up electrical.
One of the main problems is that homes are not built for indoor air quality. Furnaces in crawl spaces or garages, lack of air sealing. You can't just add sensors and fans to fix the problem.
Plus, adding a fan/vent to a home isn't ever going to be cheap. You're talking about cutting the interior and exterior of your house, running ducting and wiring up electrical.
> I have an Awair unit and it's fairly inexpensive.
I have an anecdote about the Awair. The air at one of my previous workplace was making me sick, so I asked the management to look at the air quality. They hired a professional who saw nothing - because they asked for the AC to be turned off during the monitoring.
I got an Awair and managed to track when the air quality dropped. It was whenever the AC came on. They then called another professional who finally caught it -- turns out the building's ventilation ducts had not been cleaned in 5 years AND there was water damage.
Without a customer grade air quality tracker, I would have simply believed the first professional. I would have had to either suffer being sick daily at work or having to quit for air quality reason.
Now I carry mine around to my friends and family's house and let them borrow it for a while. It always come up with explanations about issues people had been quietly enduring forever.
I have an anecdote about the Awair. The air at one of my previous workplace was making me sick, so I asked the management to look at the air quality. They hired a professional who saw nothing - because they asked for the AC to be turned off during the monitoring.
I got an Awair and managed to track when the air quality dropped. It was whenever the AC came on. They then called another professional who finally caught it -- turns out the building's ventilation ducts had not been cleaned in 5 years AND there was water damage.
Without a customer grade air quality tracker, I would have simply believed the first professional. I would have had to either suffer being sick daily at work or having to quit for air quality reason.
Now I carry mine around to my friends and family's house and let them borrow it for a while. It always come up with explanations about issues people had been quietly enduring forever.
Hi - can you tell me the model you bought?
I have the Awair 2nd Edition. It is similar to the Awair Element. However, as I don't have a smart home I sometime wish I had an Awair Glow C instead (disclaimer, it does not have as many sensors). It's a smart plug, so it can turn off the device you plug into it... I would plug my air purifier or maybe my air humidifier to it.
If you want to use one suche device on the go, at friends places, etc., I'd recommend the Atmotube Plus or Atmotube Pro by Atmotube (depending on your needs).
My purchase was a few years ago now. I've heard that the market is bigger now, so you may want to shop around. I also have the big Dyson purifier at home which comes with built-in sensors.
If you want to use one suche device on the go, at friends places, etc., I'd recommend the Atmotube Plus or Atmotube Pro by Atmotube (depending on your needs).
My purchase was a few years ago now. I've heard that the market is bigger now, so you may want to shop around. I also have the big Dyson purifier at home which comes with built-in sensors.
> It seems like this is an area where IoT should really deliver the goods.
A combination of sensors and actuators to fix the air problem, yes. But where does the internet come into play here? Seems like something 100% local to me.
Except if you want to view the data remotely, but that's a side feature, not a main requirement for this to work.
A combination of sensors and actuators to fix the air problem, yes. But where does the internet come into play here? Seems like something 100% local to me.
Except if you want to view the data remotely, but that's a side feature, not a main requirement for this to work.
I think it comes into play because LANoT doesn't roll off the tongue the way IoT does.
[deleted]
"Internet" is not needed for any of those feature ideas.
Maybe locally networked is what they meant
I think the the key is to have multiple sensing and acting devices working together to create and act on a high-quality model of the interior environment.
My preference would be to self-host that model and the associated controls. I suspect this would require some meaningful compute capability in-house.
My preference would be to self-host that model and the associated controls. I suspect this would require some meaningful compute capability in-house.
I would hope. There's some usefulness for alarm-level conditions to communicate with the outside world...but it is really disappointing how many devices feel the need to phone home about nothing in particular.
[deleted]
True, I'd be happy to self-host the meat of a system like this.
However, I suspect that the problem would benefit from cloud-scale compute. It's a fluid dynamics problem, which is just a lot of numbers to crunch. This might require more horsepower than a little ARM device can reasonably push out.
However, I suspect that the problem would benefit from cloud-scale compute. It's a fluid dynamics problem, which is just a lot of numbers to crunch. This might require more horsepower than a little ARM device can reasonably push out.
> IoT should really deliver the goods
IOT is a signal for "large disposable income", so HEPA/health anything associated with IoT will bump up the price tag considerably.
Why would anyone deliver anything good when people already willingly paying for crap?
IOT is a signal for "large disposable income", so HEPA/health anything associated with IoT will bump up the price tag considerably.
Why would anyone deliver anything good when people already willingly paying for crap?
PLANTS
LOTS AND LOTS OF PLANTS
One of the best filters out there is a spikey plant that you wouldnt think of as "pretty" but it is super helpful
https://leafyplace.com/air-filtering-house-plants/
While is #10 on this list, its still SUPER good at filtering... I Personally like LOTS of Pothos and Spider plants....
LOTS AND LOTS OF PLANTS
One of the best filters out there is a spikey plant that you wouldnt think of as "pretty" but it is super helpful
https://leafyplace.com/air-filtering-house-plants/
While is #10 on this list, its still SUPER good at filtering... I Personally like LOTS of Pothos and Spider plants....
You’re technically right about the “lots and lots” part, though I suspect you don’t understand how much “lots and lots” actually is:
> To reduce VOCs enough to impact air quality would require around 10 plants per square foot. In a small 500-square foot apartment, that’s 5,000 plants.[0]
Potted plants do not improve indoor air quality: a review and analysis of reported VOC removal efficiencies[1]
[0] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/11/houseplan...
[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41370-019-0175-9
> To reduce VOCs enough to impact air quality would require around 10 plants per square foot. In a small 500-square foot apartment, that’s 5,000 plants.[0]
Potted plants do not improve indoor air quality: a review and analysis of reported VOC removal efficiencies[1]
[0] https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/11/houseplan...
[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41370-019-0175-9
huh. thanks for that info.
I just like plants in general... vertical walls in specific though I have yet to build my own (built the ones with architects in Salesforce office around the country)
but now I am craving more plants!! (and moss) ((and fungi)) (((planning on composting all these leaves with seeded fungi spores, just need to find the spores)))
I just like plants in general... vertical walls in specific though I have yet to build my own (built the ones with architects in Salesforce office around the country)
but now I am craving more plants!! (and moss) ((and fungi)) (((planning on composting all these leaves with seeded fungi spores, just need to find the spores)))
This is bad advice. Plants are good for air quality in the sense that they filter out some dust and exchange CO2 for O2, but they also add to the contaminants, are a frequent source of fungi and other pests, require a lot of maintenance to stay healthy and are expensive in the quantities required to have a measurable impact on air quality.
They are pretty though and if you have the time and the room for them they definitely are worth having but $ for $ if your goal is clean air technology is far more efficient.
They are pretty though and if you have the time and the room for them they definitely are worth having but $ for $ if your goal is clean air technology is far more efficient.
First, I love you as a person and am again honored to be replied to by you.
Second, I wasn't giving "advice" per se
I just think that the world is a better place with more plants ( I was just commenting about Singapore's setbacks with respect to how green a super dense city can be )
but What I am stating is that no house is complete without a healthy level of plants... (its the same as that adage; don't ever listen to a person who doesnt have any books in their home)
So dont like a home where there are no plants!
EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention, the ancient Mayan Saying "Humanity will die once the last tree is cut down"
Second, I wasn't giving "advice" per se
I just think that the world is a better place with more plants ( I was just commenting about Singapore's setbacks with respect to how green a super dense city can be )
but What I am stating is that no house is complete without a healthy level of plants... (its the same as that adage; don't ever listen to a person who doesnt have any books in their home)
So dont like a home where there are no plants!
EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention, the ancient Mayan Saying "Humanity will die once the last tree is cut down"
I'm going to put together two points that people have raised in this thread:
1) Asthma is strongly correlated with gas heating and stove use.
2) Gas heating and stove use is strongly correlated with latitude.
[1] https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/42/6/1724/737113
[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3072993/[deleted]
Isn't the study about Australia though? Most of that population lives in a relatively narrow band of latitude...
Your study [2] doesn’t control for gas stove use and draws its conclusions from outdoor air pollution measurements. Indoor air measurements aren’t available.
It’s possible (and indeed likely, from the studies linked in this thread and article) that cold weather contributes both to gas usage and asthma, and gas usage contributes to asthma on its own.
It’s possible (and indeed likely, from the studies linked in this thread and article) that cold weather contributes both to gas usage and asthma, and gas usage contributes to asthma on its own.
I can of course only offer anecdata, but my SO's asthma disappears during spring/summer, to return when the cold sets in. Gas usage inside the house is constant, since the central heating boiler is outside. Now, it might not be temperature or humidity, but it isn't the result of burning more gas.
Do you use a gas stove? I think this points to the multi-factor aspect of asthma. There's also the fact that asthma is triggered by many things -- dust in the ventilation that only gets circulated in the winter when the heat gets turned on, for example.
As an aside -- it's important to keep in mind that the article does not say "gas stoves cause asthma, rip them from your homes immediately or be prepared to curse your infant with respiratory illness." It says, "there's a link here, and we should do something about that link." The author goes to great pains to use words other than cause: "connection" "link" etc.
As an aside -- it's important to keep in mind that the article does not say "gas stoves cause asthma, rip them from your homes immediately or be prepared to curse your infant with respiratory illness." It says, "there's a link here, and we should do something about that link." The author goes to great pains to use words other than cause: "connection" "link" etc.
> The author goes to great pains to use words other than cause: "connection" "link" etc.
From the article:
> The cumulative evidence was enough for the venerable New England Journal of Medicine to publish an editorial in January recommending that “new gas appliances be removed from the market.” It was co-authored by Howard Frumkin, a former director of the CDC’s National Center for Environmental Health, which is responsible for investigating environmental drivers of illness and promulgating guidance about those risk factors.
From the article:
> The cumulative evidence was enough for the venerable New England Journal of Medicine to publish an editorial in January recommending that “new gas appliances be removed from the market.” It was co-authored by Howard Frumkin, a former director of the CDC’s National Center for Environmental Health, which is responsible for investigating environmental drivers of illness and promulgating guidance about those risk factors.
Sure, but others were pointing at heating as a source, and in my SO's case, that does not seem likely. However, the use of the gas stove is constant throughout the year, so it is probably more complex. An induction stove is planned for early next year, so I might be able to observe differences.
It's purely a regression on latitude, temperature, and asthma prevalence by age group. I'm not suggesting that cold weather contributes to gas usage. Gas stoves / heat are more common the further north you get.
Uhm, I am somewhat of a pyro.. I LOVE fires. I burn a crap-ton of wood... I have literally no allergies nor asthma, breathing problems - I have a gas stove and a gas heater in my house...
I will burn a bitch at any chance I get! I literally broke my brick hearth last week chopping wood.
I was one grounded for a week when my dad came home (general contractor) and I was staying home from school with the flu, fever, and I was pumping wood into that wood-burning stove like I was trying to drive a train... it was like 110 degrees in the house.... my dad was furious,
Now, I have an endless supply of wood and a really nice fireplace - ive been going NUTs burning everything I can!
I will burn a bitch at any chance I get! I literally broke my brick hearth last week chopping wood.
I was one grounded for a week when my dad came home (general contractor) and I was staying home from school with the flu, fever, and I was pumping wood into that wood-burning stove like I was trying to drive a train... it was like 110 degrees in the house.... my dad was furious,
Now, I have an endless supply of wood and a really nice fireplace - ive been going NUTs burning everything I can!
Same. I've been slack this year but have about 15 cords sitting out back waiting to be split (half of was standing dead so it's good to go).
I know heat is heat but for some reason wood-stove heat seems like it just works better on the human body. Ours is in the basement, so it's 95 down there and that heats the entire floor upstairs.
I know heat is heat but for some reason wood-stove heat seems like it just works better on the human body. Ours is in the basement, so it's 95 down there and that heats the entire floor upstairs.
Where do you live? I want some!!
---
I grew up in Lake Tahoe. and in 1982 - there was the biggest winter in over 100 years - we had 30 feet of snow, and no power - and we cooked all our food on the wood burning stove.
I had deliver care packages to the various tourists who got stuck in their houses due to the snow - and we would have people come to our house to bath because we had hot water....
I recall making popcorn each night on the stove...
Wood burning stoves are the best!
---
I grew up in Lake Tahoe. and in 1982 - there was the biggest winter in over 100 years - we had 30 feet of snow, and no power - and we cooked all our food on the wood burning stove.
I had deliver care packages to the various tourists who got stuck in their houses due to the snow - and we would have people come to our house to bath because we had hot water....
I recall making popcorn each night on the stove...
Wood burning stoves are the best!
Although I was only a child at the time wood stoves were being phased out in the Tahoe basin (sometime in the mid/late 90s?), I definitely felt torn between the "rustic / cabin" feeling of the ordeal and the better air quality of having them phased out. It was never so bad in the neighborhood I was in because it was mostly rich folks who came up for xmas and maybe once in the summer, but xmas was so smokey! It was even worse in areas that have some inversion layer / valley geography to hold in the smoke down close to the ground; the valleys leading up to Squaw and Alpine could get "hotboxed" with pine-flavored smoke at times!
edit: I'd take that pine smoke over the general "Essence de Diesel" that pervades the current European city I live in!
edit: I'd take that pine smoke over the general "Essence de Diesel" that pervades the current European city I live in!
There isn't just one study, but rather, a growing body of evidence. This would be evident if you had actually read the meta-analysis that you cited - it includes 41 individual studies, many of which are single-city studies that arrived at the same conclusion.
More broadly, the Quartz article quotes experts who cite 4 decades of research about the the dangers of gas stoves.
More broadly, the Quartz article quotes experts who cite 4 decades of research about the the dangers of gas stoves.
The meta-analysis is based on NO levels in the home, not stove use. Primarily this relates to gas heating. I'm aware of what it says. I'm not sure how what you're saying relates to my points.
It looks to me like this article is saying "Here's good research showing that NO is linked to a 40% higher rate of asthma. Stoves produce NO so they must cause a 40% higher rate of asthma." without a study connecting the two directly. And all of this based on a meta-analysis that doesn't attempt to control for a primary trigger of asthma.
Don't you understand? The manufacturing of new electric stoves to replace the billions of gas stoves currently in use will be good for the environment. Stop drawing attention to flaws in the article. /s
I really wanted to try an induction range when we remodeled our kitchen a few years ago, but my wife wanted gas. I made a deal with her that if she didn't like the inductive, I would bring in gas and get her a gas range.
I really liked the idea of the range top being a flat, solid surface, and staying relatively cool, keeping spills from baking on and making cleanup ridiculously easy.
My wife tends to run hot, temperature wise, and gas ranges throw off a lot of heat into the surrounding area. The inductive range heats amazingly fast, reacts as fast as her parents gas range, and I can boil a teapot, pull it off, and immediately put my hand on the "burner". It's hot, sure, but on a gas or resistive range I'd have to go to the ER.
Some people put down paper towels under pots before cooking to make cleanup easier. Cleanup has lived up to my expectations, very easy.
The resistive solid surface ranges still get very hot, and a friend with one talks about how hard it is to get baked and burnt on foods off.
Now with all this talk about the combustion byproducts being problematic, I'm convinced this was definitely the right choice.
I really liked the idea of the range top being a flat, solid surface, and staying relatively cool, keeping spills from baking on and making cleanup ridiculously easy.
My wife tends to run hot, temperature wise, and gas ranges throw off a lot of heat into the surrounding area. The inductive range heats amazingly fast, reacts as fast as her parents gas range, and I can boil a teapot, pull it off, and immediately put my hand on the "burner". It's hot, sure, but on a gas or resistive range I'd have to go to the ER.
Some people put down paper towels under pots before cooking to make cleanup easier. Cleanup has lived up to my expectations, very easy.
The resistive solid surface ranges still get very hot, and a friend with one talks about how hard it is to get baked and burnt on foods off.
Now with all this talk about the combustion byproducts being problematic, I'm convinced this was definitely the right choice.
We moved into our house a couple of years ago. It had a nice gas range that we were pleased was in the home.
When we moved in, we noticed this specific "gas particulate" smell throughout the house whenever we'd use the stove. It wasn't leaking gas, but rather this smell I associated with dirty burning or something. The other times I've smelled it have been in propane space heaters for outdoors.
We replaced it with an induction range and have been completely happy with it. Heats amazingly fast, no burner to burn things, no emissions in the house, we love it. I never want to own another kind of range again.
When we moved in, we noticed this specific "gas particulate" smell throughout the house whenever we'd use the stove. It wasn't leaking gas, but rather this smell I associated with dirty burning or something. The other times I've smelled it have been in propane space heaters for outdoors.
We replaced it with an induction range and have been completely happy with it. Heats amazingly fast, no burner to burn things, no emissions in the house, we love it. I never want to own another kind of range again.
That smell is typical with a gas range. You are supposed to run it with the vent hood on to prevent that.
Interesting. There is a range vent hood but we could still smell it throughout the house (or at least most of it).
Also, I've lived in several other places with gas ranges and never encountered that before. Maybe it was just worse with that range?
Also, I've lived in several other places with gas ranges and never encountered that before. Maybe it was just worse with that range?
A friend of mine works at an architectural energy firm, and he says it's very important in designs that airflow tends towards the kitchen rather than away. They do mostly commercial, but I could see it applying to residential as well, and sounds like that situation has, even with the vent hood on, the airflow "upside down".
When I was remodeling our kitchen we went with a over range microwave because there really wasn't anywhere else to put it. Those are known for fairly poor airflow. We got a KitchenAid with some of the best available airflow, 440CFM IIRC, but stand alone hoods can do much better. I still have a todo of replacing the roof vent with a larger one, so there's probably still some restriction in there that's slowing us down. You might want to look for similar.
When I was remodeling our kitchen we went with a over range microwave because there really wasn't anywhere else to put it. Those are known for fairly poor airflow. We got a KitchenAid with some of the best available airflow, 440CFM IIRC, but stand alone hoods can do much better. I still have a todo of replacing the roof vent with a larger one, so there's probably still some restriction in there that's slowing us down. You might want to look for similar.
Moved into a mega-cor rental.
Noticed a chemical smell. Not what I considered a typical gas smell.
Was assured it was just new carpets/Flooring etc.
3 months of run around on it. I was so disoriented I started walking into traffic. Kids couldn’t spell they’re own names.
It was a major gas leak, plus carbon monoxide. Furnace and stove.
New Carbon monoxide alarm never went off.
Yea, massive medical problems all around from that. Completely destroyed our lives.
Noticed a chemical smell. Not what I considered a typical gas smell.
Was assured it was just new carpets/Flooring etc.
3 months of run around on it. I was so disoriented I started walking into traffic. Kids couldn’t spell they’re own names.
It was a major gas leak, plus carbon monoxide. Furnace and stove.
New Carbon monoxide alarm never went off.
Yea, massive medical problems all around from that. Completely destroyed our lives.
> New carbon monoxide alarm never went off.
I don't doubt any of what you're saying, but that seems odd.
I don't doubt any of what you're saying, but that seems odd.
Well it sounds like the bulk of the pollution was methane and hydrocarbons, maybe some co alarms don’t do well in heavy background gas like that.
Typical CO alarms only go off when there is a level of gas that is an imminent danger. A lower level of gas could be present and go totally undetected, but present an ongoing health risk. There are special CO monitors that are capable of detecting and alerting down to 5ppm but they are rarely installed in homes.
Guy from gas company stuck it over stove, along with his device.
His was showing extreme numbers. Mine blinked happily.
He said this was common. Always get one that showed actual numbers.
His was showing extreme numbers. Mine blinked happily.
He said this was common. Always get one that showed actual numbers.
> New Carbon monoxide alarm never went off.
I use more than one CO detector and order from different manufacturers. Same as I have done with hard drives or SSD's.
Will note this is trivial to do typically cost wise.
I use more than one CO detector and order from different manufacturers. Same as I have done with hard drives or SSD's.
Will note this is trivial to do typically cost wise.
Woah, how did you figure that out?
Hope you are recovering okay.
Hope you are recovering okay.
Called gas company after 3 months of dealing with rental Company. I had no idea that was even a thing. It’s a free check.
The past several mornings the kids were extremely hard to wake. I was walking to work when I realized I was standing in middle of a major street. Gas guy said at levels it was at, he didn’t think kids would be waking up ever again.
I’m alive from it. I don’t worry about planning for retirement any more. Certainly won’t live that long.
The past several mornings the kids were extremely hard to wake. I was walking to work when I realized I was standing in middle of a major street. Gas guy said at levels it was at, he didn’t think kids would be waking up ever again.
I’m alive from it. I don’t worry about planning for retirement any more. Certainly won’t live that long.
Contact a lawyer ASAP. There's a lawsuit here if I've ever heard one.
Tried.
They were only interested if we got a doctor to sign off that toxic gas caused Injury.
Turns out doctors don’t care. They treat symptoms not causes. Several said they had had no idea what that much natural gas exposure would do.
Plus when 100% of the time I would explain it was carbon monoxide AND natural gas. They would fixate on carbon monoxide. Declaring that that those issues clear up quickly. Ignoring the other half of the issue.
Eventually gave up as I basically was bed bound for better than a year and just couldn’t fight it.
They were only interested if we got a doctor to sign off that toxic gas caused Injury.
Turns out doctors don’t care. They treat symptoms not causes. Several said they had had no idea what that much natural gas exposure would do.
Plus when 100% of the time I would explain it was carbon monoxide AND natural gas. They would fixate on carbon monoxide. Declaring that that those issues clear up quickly. Ignoring the other half of the issue.
Eventually gave up as I basically was bed bound for better than a year and just couldn’t fight it.
I can't help but wonder if the effects noted in the study may just turn out to be largely correlated effects rather than causative effects.
Are gas stoves more/less prevalent in houses based on incomes, geographic regions, urban vs suburban, etc? Are unvented gas stoves more common in some areas? Are gas stoves used as central heating systems more common in older, often smaller/lower-income housing (it's pretty surely "yes" on that last point)? Do many low-income housing units have induction cooktops? (I suspect "no")
If gas stoves were more common in cities, I can imagine that other city factors might be causal yet show up as correlated in the study. (I did try to read for controls the study included, but that was not well-covered in the article.)
Are gas stoves more/less prevalent in houses based on incomes, geographic regions, urban vs suburban, etc? Are unvented gas stoves more common in some areas? Are gas stoves used as central heating systems more common in older, often smaller/lower-income housing (it's pretty surely "yes" on that last point)? Do many low-income housing units have induction cooktops? (I suspect "no")
If gas stoves were more common in cities, I can imagine that other city factors might be causal yet show up as correlated in the study. (I did try to read for controls the study included, but that was not well-covered in the article.)
There is causal link and explanation. This is not just statistical inference.
Generally speaking, the further north you go, the more prevalent gas/oil/propane is for heating and cooking. The BTU per $ efficiency for those sources is unmatched by electric. North-eastern and mid-western winters get cold and brutal. It's just not feasible to heat a home using electric in these areas without serious consideration put into insulation.
Rural homes, in my experience, use propane stored in tanks onsite, rather than natural gas piped in from a central source. And older suburban homes use onsite "heating oil" stored in tanks, usually in the basement, though, these homes are often converted to use nat-gas piped in from a utility.
Rural homes, in my experience, use propane stored in tanks onsite, rather than natural gas piped in from a central source. And older suburban homes use onsite "heating oil" stored in tanks, usually in the basement, though, these homes are often converted to use nat-gas piped in from a utility.
> The BTU per $ efficiency for those sources is unmatched by electric.
I'm curious, with good insulation and modern heat pumps, does electric win these days? (Let's assume we're talking about winters that get down to 0°F at night, but not -30°F.)
I'm curious, with good insulation and modern heat pumps, does electric win these days? (Let's assume we're talking about winters that get down to 0°F at night, but not -30°F.)
>> modern heat pumps, does electric win these days?
Moving parts. Gas is more reliable in the very long term (10/20+ years) because it has fewer moving parts and operates at lower pressures than heat pumps. Gas is also easier to upgrade. Installing a larger furnace or water tank costs X. A new heat pump solution, 10x.
Heat pumps have a place but a New England winter is not that place.
"For climates with moderate heating and cooling needs, heat pumps offer an energy-efficient alternative to furnaces and air conditioners."
https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/heat-and-cool/heat-pump-s...
Moving parts. Gas is more reliable in the very long term (10/20+ years) because it has fewer moving parts and operates at lower pressures than heat pumps. Gas is also easier to upgrade. Installing a larger furnace or water tank costs X. A new heat pump solution, 10x.
Heat pumps have a place but a New England winter is not that place.
"For climates with moderate heating and cooling needs, heat pumps offer an energy-efficient alternative to furnaces and air conditioners."
https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/heat-and-cool/heat-pump-s...
> heat pumps offer an energy-efficient alternative to [...] air conditioners
What does that mean? Air conditioners are heat pumps. Are the two terms used for distinct classes of products in US, or something like that?
What does that mean? Air conditioners are heat pumps. Are the two terms used for distinct classes of products in US, or something like that?
From what I've seen in Canada units that can only pump heat from inside to outside are sold as "air conditioners", units that can also pump heat from outside to inside are sold as "heat pumps".
More like winters that get down to 0° Celcius/32°F at night. Here in the Seattle area, if it gets close to freezing, the “strip heater” (supplemental resistive electric heating, like an electric furnace) kicks on. When I lived in Indiana, which most definitely has 0°F winters, the few that bought heat pumps hated them because the “heat pump” part didn’t get used for a few months in the winter while the real furnace did the work. Granted, that was 25 years ago, but physics hasn’t changed much: how much heat are you going to suck out of 0°F air?
The heat pump does a much better job of cooling the house in the summer in comparison to a gas furnace, though.
The heat pump does a much better job of cooling the house in the summer in comparison to a gas furnace, though.
How does that look for Geothermal heatpump, where you drill down a borehole and 'steal' heat from the ground? The temperature of the ground does not vary much seasonally.
Geothermal heat pumps (aka ground sourced heat pumps) have a high initial capital cost. Their suitability also depends on the local dirt as much as the local climate. You need good enough ground moisture levels to have a high enough thermal conductivity. Otherwise the cost of the hole becomes prohibitive.
Well, speaking of Indiana, I worked at a church in IN that used the type of geothermal you describe. Kept the church warm all of the two or three winters I was there. IIRC (and I probably don't from 25 years ago), the ground temp was around 54F at the depth it was pulling from.
Insulation is very relevant for sizing the equipment, but has comparatively little influence on the $/BTU.
Hand-wavy, order-of-magnitude estimates here.
82% blended efficiency gas equipment is ~$15/1MBTU
Geothermal heat pump at a blended COP of 3 will take ~100kWh for that same 1MBTU. In MA, that 100kWh will cost you $20. (That's after a potentially $75K-100K installation cost for the geothermal wells and equipment vs $10K for a decent modcon boiler.)
So, pay an extra $50K-90K up-front and 33% more for your variable energy. (Of course, you get air-conditioning included above in most of the geothermal installs.)
Hand-wavy, order-of-magnitude estimates here.
82% blended efficiency gas equipment is ~$15/1MBTU
Geothermal heat pump at a blended COP of 3 will take ~100kWh for that same 1MBTU. In MA, that 100kWh will cost you $20. (That's after a potentially $75K-100K installation cost for the geothermal wells and equipment vs $10K for a decent modcon boiler.)
So, pay an extra $50K-90K up-front and 33% more for your variable energy. (Of course, you get air-conditioning included above in most of the geothermal installs.)
I think that the issue with heat pumps is that they don't really work well in sub-freezing temperatures, making them mostly useless in colder climates.
There are dual fuel systems that use heat pumps until they stop working and switch to heating using a regular furnace. They cost a little more but they provide some marginal savings (even if those depend on the cost of both electricity and whatever fuel the furnace uses).
There are dual fuel systems that use heat pumps until they stop working and switch to heating using a regular furnace. They cost a little more but they provide some marginal savings (even if those depend on the cost of both electricity and whatever fuel the furnace uses).
They've made huge improvements.
My NYC apartment has a modern heat pump and it certainly works when it's 0°F outside which is well below freezing -- according to its specs, it's still more energy-efficient than electric coil heating as long as the outdoor temperature is above something like -10°F.
So it's not for extreme cold (-30°F), but it can absolutely handle a wide range of sub-freezing temperatures.
My NYC apartment has a modern heat pump and it certainly works when it's 0°F outside which is well below freezing -- according to its specs, it's still more energy-efficient than electric coil heating as long as the outdoor temperature is above something like -10°F.
So it's not for extreme cold (-30°F), but it can absolutely handle a wide range of sub-freezing temperatures.
First off, due to the physics of their operating mechanism, heat pumps can only provide heat down to a certain temperature. Some can operate at temperatures as low as 0°F (albeit inefficiently) but even for those models, the efficient minimum temperature is still around 25°F. So if you live in a place that gets colder than that, and you insist on electric heat, you would likely need to go for resistive heating (like wall heaters). But resistive heating is not great, in part because it dries out the air so much.
In terms of cost, I happen to have both a high efficiency gas furnace and a high efficiency electric heat pump in a home with great insulation, and have been able to experiment with how they compare for heating the home. We don't get winters that go below 25°F, but gas heating is FAR cheaper (I estimate less than half the cost). We personally feel the air quality is better with gas heating as well, although this might be subjective.
In terms of cost, I happen to have both a high efficiency gas furnace and a high efficiency electric heat pump in a home with great insulation, and have been able to experiment with how they compare for heating the home. We don't get winters that go below 25°F, but gas heating is FAR cheaper (I estimate less than half the cost). We personally feel the air quality is better with gas heating as well, although this might be subjective.
It depends on the cost of electricity. In most of Massachusetts and New York, for example, electric is too expensive.
Meanwhile across the border in Quebec with electricity at less than 6c per kwh most homes use electric baseboard heaters.
> It's just not feasible to heat a home using electric in these areas
I live in Massachusetts and the cheapest source of heat is an electric, air-based heat pump matched with solar panels.
Without solar, electric air-based heat pumps are cost competitive. You have to do the math, though. (How much BTU per therm of gas or gallon of oil; reduce by efficiency, then convert BTU to kwh, then divide by the COE of your heat pump.)
At my old house in Massachusetts I paid $0.12 per kwh, my gas price was equivalent to paying $0.04 per kwh to run a resistive heater; a heat pump with 3.0 COE would be "break-even" with gas.
At my current home my solar loans are estimated to cost about $0.04 cents a kwh. Obviously, I went with a heat pump instead of a gas furnace!
I live in Massachusetts and the cheapest source of heat is an electric, air-based heat pump matched with solar panels.
Without solar, electric air-based heat pumps are cost competitive. You have to do the math, though. (How much BTU per therm of gas or gallon of oil; reduce by efficiency, then convert BTU to kwh, then divide by the COE of your heat pump.)
At my old house in Massachusetts I paid $0.12 per kwh, my gas price was equivalent to paying $0.04 per kwh to run a resistive heater; a heat pump with 3.0 COE would be "break-even" with gas.
At my current home my solar loans are estimated to cost about $0.04 cents a kwh. Obviously, I went with a heat pump instead of a gas furnace!
Was that $0.12/kWh the all-in cost or just the power cost? Also in MA, I pay about that for the power, but an additional $0.09/kWh or so for the transmission/distribution of that power.
The total delivered price is $0.19xx for me per marginal kWh and seems to be close to that across MA.
The total delivered price is $0.19xx for me per marginal kWh and seems to be close to that across MA.
[deleted]
In Europe there is a UNI norm, dating back to 1974 or so, mandating the need of both an evacuation and an air inlet in case of gas stoves.
Even if it is essentially for safety, it has (where implemented correctly) the side effect (advantage in this case) of creating a flux of fresh air.
Where this is not needed by the norms (electric stoves and similar), expecially in modern "energy saving" houses, problems of humidity and mold often arise.
As said in other threads, our grandmothers and mothers used to open all windows briefly every morning, nowadays - for one reason or the other - most people do not do this and - coupled with the increased air tightness of windows and doors - makes mechanical ventilation a need.
Even if it is essentially for safety, it has (where implemented correctly) the side effect (advantage in this case) of creating a flux of fresh air.
Where this is not needed by the norms (electric stoves and similar), expecially in modern "energy saving" houses, problems of humidity and mold often arise.
As said in other threads, our grandmothers and mothers used to open all windows briefly every morning, nowadays - for one reason or the other - most people do not do this and - coupled with the increased air tightness of windows and doors - makes mechanical ventilation a need.
"As said in other threads, our grandmothers and mothers used to open all windows briefly every morning ..."
... and also their children and grandchildren because who, anywhere, wouldn't do this ?
Even while living in Minneapolis, in the dead of winter, we still cleared the air each day. I guess forced air heating made that relatively pain-free since you can reheat the entire house very quickly ...
... and also their children and grandchildren because who, anywhere, wouldn't do this ?
Even while living in Minneapolis, in the dead of winter, we still cleared the air each day. I guess forced air heating made that relatively pain-free since you can reheat the entire house very quickly ...
>>who, anywhere, wouldn't do this ?
FWIW - Many places/people. Most, in my anecdotal experience.
- I've seen numerous condos in north america and Europe that do not have effectively openable windows, certainly not in quantity to properly vent the entire unit. So you couldn't if you wanted to.
- Some cultures have very differing perspectives; where I'm from, interior "Cross-winds" are deemed to be deadly. You will NOT open two windows at the same time anywhere in the house, ever, period. If any window happens to be open and a kid opens the front door, they'll be yelled at to close it ASAP lest... I dunno, something about their lower back?
- But most people I've spoken to / lived with, across countries and continents just don't bother / it doesn't occur to them. It's not a thing (this includes living with three host families in Minnesota in the 90's - none of them opened their windows much if at all, trusting their HVAC to take care of them. Two of them were medical professionals.
FWIW - Many places/people. Most, in my anecdotal experience.
- I've seen numerous condos in north america and Europe that do not have effectively openable windows, certainly not in quantity to properly vent the entire unit. So you couldn't if you wanted to.
- Some cultures have very differing perspectives; where I'm from, interior "Cross-winds" are deemed to be deadly. You will NOT open two windows at the same time anywhere in the house, ever, period. If any window happens to be open and a kid opens the front door, they'll be yelled at to close it ASAP lest... I dunno, something about their lower back?
- But most people I've spoken to / lived with, across countries and continents just don't bother / it doesn't occur to them. It's not a thing (this includes living with three host families in Minnesota in the 90's - none of them opened their windows much if at all, trusting their HVAC to take care of them. Two of them were medical professionals.
> interior "Cross-winds" are deemed to be deadly
Interesting! Never heard this before. Where are you from, if I may ask?
Interesting! Never heard this before. Where are you from, if I may ask?
The same irrational belief is common in Germany as well. Cold air is thought to cause things like the common cold and bronchitis.
Some people would feel a slight draft indoors and immediately start yelling for the windows to be closed.
I knew a very wealthy guy in Germany who bought a Mercedes 560SEL - at the time, the top-of-the-line model. He ordered it without air conditioning because he didn't want to get bronchitis.
Some people would feel a slight draft indoors and immediately start yelling for the windows to be closed.
I knew a very wealthy guy in Germany who bought a Mercedes 560SEL - at the time, the top-of-the-line model. He ordered it without air conditioning because he didn't want to get bronchitis.
“Es zieht!”
I think this article describes it well, including the absolute cultural prevalence, belief, and influence :). It is written in regard to a single country (Croatia) but applies to Balkans and few other parts of Europe as well:
https://zablogreb.wordpress.com/2012/12/26/propuh-or-the-gre...
https://zablogreb.wordpress.com/2012/12/26/propuh-or-the-gre...
Sounds like Eastern Europe to me.
My family members used to yell at me for sitting down on a stone fence or concrete bench, because something something cold stone ... lower back / kidney disease.
My family members used to yell at me for sitting down on a stone fence or concrete bench, because something something cold stone ... lower back / kidney disease.
> You will NOT open two windows at the same time anywhere in the house, ever, period.
This makes literally zero sense. It's even stupider than Korean Fan Death.
This makes literally zero sense. It's even stupider than Korean Fan Death.
It's analogous, irrational, and nonsensical from our perspective, so I'd agree.
(I think the article I linked later demonstrates some interesting and radically differing cultural assumptions)
(I think the article I linked later demonstrates some interesting and radically differing cultural assumptions)
Oh it really is. I grew up with the bs, and people don't seem to believe you when you tell them that it's no worse than wind blowing on the street.
> where I'm from, interior "Cross-winds" are deemed to be deadly.
In Romania, too, popular belief considers drafts to be a dangerous cause of illness, but at least in my own experience, opening all the windows in the morning is an exception. Airing out the house daily in winter is seen as a healthful thing to do by many if not most families... but of course once all the windows are closed again, there shouldn't be the slightest hint of a draft anywhere in the house.
In Romania, too, popular belief considers drafts to be a dangerous cause of illness, but at least in my own experience, opening all the windows in the morning is an exception. Airing out the house daily in winter is seen as a healthful thing to do by many if not most families... but of course once all the windows are closed again, there shouldn't be the slightest hint of a draft anywhere in the house.
My mother is constantly complaining that apartment is cold, and then I close the window.
>because who, anywhere, wouldn't do this ?
Whoever paying to heat the building in question isn't gonna do this.
Whoever paying to heat the building in question isn't gonna do this.
Venting significantly reduces the humidity of your air, driving down the heat capacity of it. Meaning you will need less energy to heat up the room.
This thread seems to give a great overview of all interactions: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/45349/how-air-hu....
It's actually common part of contracts in Germany that you have to vent at least 10min per day through 2 different rooms etc.
This thread seems to give a great overview of all interactions: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/45349/how-air-hu....
It's actually common part of contracts in Germany that you have to vent at least 10min per day through 2 different rooms etc.
> Venting significantly reduces the humidity of your air
Even when it's raining outside, etc?
Even when it's raining outside, etc?
If it's raining, then obviously it's not very cold outside. Unless you're in the habit of cranking your furnace up to tropical temperatures I guess. For me, I keep the temperature above freezing inside but otherwise? I put on a sweater and open the window. It's cheaper, refreshing, and better for the environment. Right now it's 8 C outside; with the window open and a sweater on, I'm as comfy as a clam.
Ok but you must that this is unusual and most people keep their thermostat around 21 C.
I don't know, it's typical for my family. It seems inappropriate to me for people to set their furnace so high just so they can dress like it's summer in the winter.
Furnaces dry out the air. Human activity can contribute moisture to the air. But the net effect is usually to leave the interior air dryer than the exterior air. Depending greatly on your lavatory ventilation.
Where I live, allowing outside air in greatly increases the inside humidity. And I would guess this is true for most people given the widespread complaints of dry winter skin and bloody noses. Which is the product of increased furnace operation.
Where I live, allowing outside air in greatly increases the inside humidity. And I would guess this is true for most people given the widespread complaints of dry winter skin and bloody noses. Which is the product of increased furnace operation.
You own link points out that the difference between humid and dry air in terms of heat capacity is a low single digit percent. Unless you can reduce the humidity from "a lot" to "basically nothing" and lose only a couple of degrees in the process (highly unlikely, completely impossible if your method consists of opening windows/doors in the winter) it is going to cost more energy to vent out the humidity and heat dry air than it is to just heat the humid air that's already near temp.
Just because a rental contract includes a clause doesn't make the intentions of that clause consistent with reality.
Just because a rental contract includes a clause doesn't make the intentions of that clause consistent with reality.
I have never "cleared the air."
Besides the advantage of air heating (that gives the illusion of reheating the house [1])there are a lot of differences in the way houses are built.
Generally speaking "traditional" houses in Europe (made with brick or stone walls) tend to have rather poor insulation but very high termal mass, as opposed to more modern houses (and to the essentially wood/timber based houses in north America) that have a higher insulation but very low thermal mass.
In high thermal mass houses completely changing the air does not lower that much the temperature as as soon as you re-close the windows the air is re-heated by walls, ceilings and floor radiating the heat they accumulated before.
[1] whilst in reality it only re-heats the air
Generally speaking "traditional" houses in Europe (made with brick or stone walls) tend to have rather poor insulation but very high termal mass, as opposed to more modern houses (and to the essentially wood/timber based houses in north America) that have a higher insulation but very low thermal mass.
In high thermal mass houses completely changing the air does not lower that much the temperature as as soon as you re-close the windows the air is re-heated by walls, ceilings and floor radiating the heat they accumulated before.
[1] whilst in reality it only re-heats the air
I live in Canada and keep a window open a crack in winter to vent the place. It is considered highly eccentric.
I know my grandmother did it but people seem to have lost the habit. I’ve only heard of it being widespread in Germany.
I know my grandmother did it but people seem to have lost the habit. I’ve only heard of it being widespread in Germany.
I’ve heard this usually described as a German custom “lüften”, conveniently in line with Covid guidance.
Would be interesting to see a world map of daily clear-the-air adoption. I hadn’t heard of it before this year.
https://welcometogermerica.com/2018/12/how-to-air-out-a-room...
Would be interesting to see a world map of daily clear-the-air adoption. I hadn’t heard of it before this year.
https://welcometogermerica.com/2018/12/how-to-air-out-a-room...
Never heard of people doing this.
I've lived in the Twin Cities my whole life and have never heard of or done this.
> As said in other threads, our grandmothers and mothers used to open all windows briefly every morning
This is a common practice (except in very cold or highly polluted parts of India) even today - and not just briefly, either - windows are often open until evening, until a bit before mosquito entering time. And some people again open windows after 8 pm or so, because the lore is that mosquitoes won't move much after that. But that is oldish stuff, and it can be different these days.
And even in those colder or more polluted areas, some people still do it.
This is a common practice (except in very cold or highly polluted parts of India) even today - and not just briefly, either - windows are often open until evening, until a bit before mosquito entering time. And some people again open windows after 8 pm or so, because the lore is that mosquitoes won't move much after that. But that is oldish stuff, and it can be different these days.
And even in those colder or more polluted areas, some people still do it.
I've seen apartments and office buildings where it's literally impossible to open windows, as well as quite a few where you could only open the windows by a few cm.
I worked in an office building without windows that could open years ago, and I got a headache around 2pm every day. It had some mechanical ventilation, but it's not really the same as actual fresh air. It was by far the most horrible office I've ever worked at.
A lot of people also don't like it when I open windows for a bit to let some fresh air in, even when the air is clearly stale and musty. I don't know why people are so opposed to opening windows. My pet theory is that it's a subconscious psychological connection to a certain piece of software :-)
I worked in an office building without windows that could open years ago, and I got a headache around 2pm every day. It had some mechanical ventilation, but it's not really the same as actual fresh air. It was by far the most horrible office I've ever worked at.
A lot of people also don't like it when I open windows for a bit to let some fresh air in, even when the air is clearly stale and musty. I don't know why people are so opposed to opening windows. My pet theory is that it's a subconscious psychological connection to a certain piece of software :-)
> I don't know why people are so opposed to opening windows.
I'm guessing it's that people don't like wasting or letting out air that's been heated, cooled, humidified, or dehumidified. I live in a place that gets all four seasons and my house is completely sealed up except for during a few weeks when the outdoor temperature is just a bit cooler than the indoor ambient temperature.
I'm guessing it's that people don't like wasting or letting out air that's been heated, cooled, humidified, or dehumidified. I live in a place that gets all four seasons and my house is completely sealed up except for during a few weeks when the outdoor temperature is just a bit cooler than the indoor ambient temperature.
It also lets in the bugs and allergy triggers.
My head has generally been clearer since I moved into the city and kept the windows closed, compared to suburbs or city with open windows.
My head has generally been clearer since I moved into the city and kept the windows closed, compared to suburbs or city with open windows.
I've got a Coway Air Purifier in my 1-bedroom apartment, near the separator between the kitchen and the dining room. We have a gas stove.
It's been amazing to see how much what I considered "light" stovetop cooking will set it off and make it spend the next 20 minutes on max settings trying to decontaminate the air. Pan-frying and stir-frying are expected triggers, but even the evaporated vapor from a pot of simmering soup can make it momentarily angry.
Meat fat seems the worst offender. Nothing angers it quite like trying to brown/sear meat does. God help us when I cook bacon in the cast-iron skillet. Even if there's no smoke (I keep the heat at medium low to prevent the bacon from burning), the AP might continue to run for up to an hour after I've turned the damn stove off!
It's been amazing to see how much what I considered "light" stovetop cooking will set it off and make it spend the next 20 minutes on max settings trying to decontaminate the air. Pan-frying and stir-frying are expected triggers, but even the evaporated vapor from a pot of simmering soup can make it momentarily angry.
Meat fat seems the worst offender. Nothing angers it quite like trying to brown/sear meat does. God help us when I cook bacon in the cast-iron skillet. Even if there's no smoke (I keep the heat at medium low to prevent the bacon from burning), the AP might continue to run for up to an hour after I've turned the damn stove off!
> but even the evaporated vapor from a pot of simmering soup can make it momentarily angry
Yeap. Not sure what type of sensor it has, but it will react to water vapor. Our master bedroom is right next to the bathroom so showering will cause it to work at its highest setting.
Not that it's a problem per-se. Just that it doesn't really "know" what's in the air. So while your cooking may indeed be spewing pollutants everywhere, the fact that the filter is working harder doesn't mean the air is bad.
That said, humidity needs to be controlled too.
What is interesting is, cooking downstairs will set it off. I have two humidity sensors, and they can't see any difference. Still the filter will start to work and I can't claim it's because of water vapor. It some other type of particulate, harmful or not. It's getting filtered anyway.
Yeap. Not sure what type of sensor it has, but it will react to water vapor. Our master bedroom is right next to the bathroom so showering will cause it to work at its highest setting.
Not that it's a problem per-se. Just that it doesn't really "know" what's in the air. So while your cooking may indeed be spewing pollutants everywhere, the fact that the filter is working harder doesn't mean the air is bad.
That said, humidity needs to be controlled too.
What is interesting is, cooking downstairs will set it off. I have two humidity sensors, and they can't see any difference. Still the filter will start to work and I can't claim it's because of water vapor. It some other type of particulate, harmful or not. It's getting filtered anyway.
> but even the evaporated vapor from a pot of simmering soup can make it momentarily angry.
It sounds like it can't tell the difference between water vapor and harmful pollutants. Not that it needs to for it to do its job, but the machine may not be a good indicator of actual pollution levels.
It sounds like it can't tell the difference between water vapor and harmful pollutants. Not that it needs to for it to do its job, but the machine may not be a good indicator of actual pollution levels.
We have a Sharp air purifier and it's fun watching it go off whenever we empty the diaper bin
But looking at it purely from a technical standpoint but the Sharp and Coway and other actively monitoring filters are kicking into action because of an increased particle count in the air. Whereas the article is about NO2 gas emissions trapped indoors.
I am not sure these HEPA filters are fine enough to actually filter NO2, SO2, CO, etc, are they?
I am not sure these HEPA filters are fine enough to actually filter NO2, SO2, CO, etc, are they?
HEPA cannot filter molecules.
Activated Carbon filters can capture VOCs and gases, but you need a ton of carbon, and you need to replace the carbon when it's "full" (since recharging it in your home kind of defeats the purpose)
I've been wondering whether to put in a heat recovery ventilation system. I imagine that if the air purifier could trigger the ventilator to bring in fresh air, it would cut the time needed to clean the air to a fraction.
It's a great little unit. Mine does the same thing (notably when searing steak in the cast iron) despite being on different floors.
To be nit-picky, little to none of that has to do with your gas stove. Our Coway kicks on if I take a shower (water vapor). It also kicks on for all of the cooking scenarios you list. There is no gas line running to our house.
The title on this article is very meta and clickbaity.
1. Starts with "experts". This is some weird... appeal to authority in the title? Why do you have to tell us that they're experts? Would we not come to that conclusion ourselves?
2. Tells us the "experts" are "sounding the alarm". This seems like a cheap way to make something sound more urgent than it really is. I've got a thousand "alarms" going off in my world right now, you want to add "gas stoves" to it? (Ah, but you're an expert... how foolish of me not to listen to your clarion call!)
3. The "hidden dangers of gas stoves". Are... ...are what?
1. Starts with "experts". This is some weird... appeal to authority in the title? Why do you have to tell us that they're experts? Would we not come to that conclusion ourselves?
2. Tells us the "experts" are "sounding the alarm". This seems like a cheap way to make something sound more urgent than it really is. I've got a thousand "alarms" going off in my world right now, you want to add "gas stoves" to it? (Ah, but you're an expert... how foolish of me not to listen to your clarion call!)
3. The "hidden dangers of gas stoves". Are... ...are what?
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My suspicion is that with natural gas prices expected to rise due to decrease in fracking, coal companies are likely funding research and native ads to pick up as much business as possible. This would keep money out of the hands of their competitors. That's not to say the information presented is not useful.
Coal is a sinking ship that even the coal companies want off of. Nobody is gonna use a coal stove and if people switch to electric increasing demand they still won't be building coal plants. If anything the people who stand to gain here are the solar and wind crowd.
I'm all for electrification, but it is not the full answer when it comes to indoor air quality. Too often "electrification" is cover for just not ventilating a room. Rather than air ducts which waste valuable space, a developer would rather throw in an electric baseboard heater and a tiny window. Net result: a sealed room with no real airflow. Dust, mold ... name any indoor pollutant and it will be worse without ventilation.
Indoor air pollution due to gas stoves is something I became aware of about a year ago, and I've done some reading about it since then as I have a gas stove and two young children. As far as I can tell it's not an issue of a properly or improperly operating appliance, but rather NO2 is an unavoidable byproduct of gas combustion.
I can't locate the exact sources now, but it's apparently very difficult to vent the NO2 to the outside with a range hood as the hood is so far away from the flame that a massive amount of airflow is required. This introduces an entirely new set of problems where makeup air must be provided to avoid depressurizing the house. If it's hot or cold out bringing this makeup air is a huge waste of energy as heated or air conditioned air is exhausted and unconditioned air is brought in.
My quick solution for now was to replace the range with two portable induction cooktops which have been working great. I've been happy with now they provide the fast temperature response of gas although there was a bit of a learning curve at first.
I can't locate the exact sources now, but it's apparently very difficult to vent the NO2 to the outside with a range hood as the hood is so far away from the flame that a massive amount of airflow is required. This introduces an entirely new set of problems where makeup air must be provided to avoid depressurizing the house. If it's hot or cold out bringing this makeup air is a huge waste of energy as heated or air conditioned air is exhausted and unconditioned air is brought in.
My quick solution for now was to replace the range with two portable induction cooktops which have been working great. I've been happy with now they provide the fast temperature response of gas although there was a bit of a learning curve at first.
Do you have a source for NO2 being difficult to direct out of a house with a range hood? My range hood is maybe ~3 feet from the source, I'm wondering if it's enough or if I should do something more proactive.
I thought I had read somewhere that home range hoods tended to not be deep enough or have high enough airflow to capture combustion products from gas stoves, but I'm having trouble finding that now. I did find this article that says they measured 80-95% reduction of pollutants which seems pretty good with 108 L/s airflow which is achievable:
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1420274
It's possible that what I was reading before was discussing direct capture of the combustion products, but it stands to reason that if you're exhausting a lot of air with the range hood it's going to limit the concentration of pollutants by cycling the air in the entire kitchen. Alternatively I could just be remembering incorrectly!
My range hood is unfortunately configured to recirculate, and it's not in a convenient location to duct to the outside. If I change entirely over to electric I'll likely keep the range hood recirculating and install a central ERV or HRV that pulls air from the kitchen to manage winter time air pollution throughout the house.
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1420274
It's possible that what I was reading before was discussing direct capture of the combustion products, but it stands to reason that if you're exhausting a lot of air with the range hood it's going to limit the concentration of pollutants by cycling the air in the entire kitchen. Alternatively I could just be remembering incorrectly!
My range hood is unfortunately configured to recirculate, and it's not in a convenient location to duct to the outside. If I change entirely over to electric I'll likely keep the range hood recirculating and install a central ERV or HRV that pulls air from the kitchen to manage winter time air pollution throughout the house.
I also had a range hood that recirculated air in my home (an integrated KitchenAid model with built-in microwave). I had no idea it recirculated the air until I started measuring PM2.5 in the house and noticed it would spike like crazy any time we cooked and didn't seem to change when running the range hood fan. There was a tiny metal grease filter in it, but I can't imagine these do anything for indoor air quality. Feels borderline unethical.
On my unit you can reconfigure it to vent out the back (if the unit just happens to align perfectly between the studs -- which mine didn't) or you can configure it to vent up through a duct. I had a duct run through the roof. My air quality is definitely better when running the range hood now; it still gets bad when I cook, but just less-bad than before.
On my unit you can reconfigure it to vent out the back (if the unit just happens to align perfectly between the studs -- which mine didn't) or you can configure it to vent up through a duct. I had a duct run through the roof. My air quality is definitely better when running the range hood now; it still gets bad when I cook, but just less-bad than before.
Oh that's interesting. A range hood that recirculates? I didn't know that was even a thing. Must have a very powerful HEPA filter in there or something; not sure how safe I would feel with that.
I suppose I'll just be more proactive using my indoor air monitor when cooking; albeit it's hard to know for sure. The monitor always shows a non trivial ambient level of VOCs; so it's hard to know what is safe, what is from cooking, what can be prevented, etc..
I suppose I'll just be more proactive using my indoor air monitor when cooking; albeit it's hard to know for sure. The monitor always shows a non trivial ambient level of VOCs; so it's hard to know what is safe, what is from cooking, what can be prevented, etc..
My range hood will actively draw smoke from 10+ feet away, so I have to assume it has no problem sucking up virtually all the gases coming from the flames 3 feet directly below it.
Just curious.. what was tough to learn at first? Just how to translate the dial to "traditional" heat settings?
The biggest surprise for me was just how quickly an induction cooktop can heat up a pan. When using gas I would often turn the stove on as I finished chopping vegetables to let it preheat, but after burning a few things on the induction cooktop I realized I need to have everything ready to go in.
Other trouble I had was largely due to the Ikea Tillreda cooktop I purchased first; it only has ten temperature settings which made it difficult or impossible to find the correct setting when sauteeing. The second cooktop I purchased was a Duxtop model which has twenty temperature settings which seems to work just fine, and the Ikea cooktop still finds use boiling water and other tasks where precise temperature control does not matter.
Another problem that I have with both cooktops is that the actual heated area of the pan is only about 6" in diameter, whereas it seems to be common for a full size induction range or cooktop to have at least one 12" element. This is more noticeable than with a standard electric stove because the heated area on induction comes up to temperature almost immediately whereas the unheated areas of the pan take a long time to warm up through conduction.
Edit: I should add in case the above sounds negative that I love using induction and can't wait to have a full size version! The digital control and fast heating give me better consistency and less time standing around waiting than gas. I would however recommend that anyone thinking about switching to induction first buy a portable unit to try out as decent ones are well under $100.
Other trouble I had was largely due to the Ikea Tillreda cooktop I purchased first; it only has ten temperature settings which made it difficult or impossible to find the correct setting when sauteeing. The second cooktop I purchased was a Duxtop model which has twenty temperature settings which seems to work just fine, and the Ikea cooktop still finds use boiling water and other tasks where precise temperature control does not matter.
Another problem that I have with both cooktops is that the actual heated area of the pan is only about 6" in diameter, whereas it seems to be common for a full size induction range or cooktop to have at least one 12" element. This is more noticeable than with a standard electric stove because the heated area on induction comes up to temperature almost immediately whereas the unheated areas of the pan take a long time to warm up through conduction.
Edit: I should add in case the above sounds negative that I love using induction and can't wait to have a full size version! The digital control and fast heating give me better consistency and less time standing around waiting than gas. I would however recommend that anyone thinking about switching to induction first buy a portable unit to try out as decent ones are well under $100.
Definitely seconding this experience. Induction is great for lots of reasons, indoor pollution only being one.
The small cheap portable induction units have a number of tradeoffs that are not inherent to induction itself, but are more related to.. being inexpensive and portable.
Like the parent here though, we do all of our cooking on a cheap, portable, induction hot plate sitting on top of our gas stove because it is just that much better. I also cannot wait to get a full size version, but this is unfortunately hard when you rent apartments.
The small cheap portable induction units have a number of tradeoffs that are not inherent to induction itself, but are more related to.. being inexpensive and portable.
Like the parent here though, we do all of our cooking on a cheap, portable, induction hot plate sitting on top of our gas stove because it is just that much better. I also cannot wait to get a full size version, but this is unfortunately hard when you rent apartments.
Thats really interesting, I didnt realize (or think about) the mechanics of it. I think I'll look into it more, seems like a way better alternative to my pulsating electric range as well.
Others in this thread have mentioned them, but this is the exact use case for energy recovery ventilators
The real issue is that kitchens with gas stoves are not required to have a chimney or other exhaust mechanism. WTF.
Solve that and the health crisis is gone: richer cooking aficionados will install chimneys, and miserly landlords will install electric appliances.
Solve that and the health crisis is gone: richer cooking aficionados will install chimneys, and miserly landlords will install electric appliances.
"The real issue is that kitchens with gas stoves are not required to have a chimney or other exhaust mechanism."
Range hoods with powered vents are required, by code, basically everywhere in the US and Canada.
In fact, many code jurisdictions are sophisticated enough to require make-up air ducts, etc.
These building codes specify vertical distance from the rangetop, CFM rating, and hood area (which typically overlaps the range area by 2-4 inches on each side).
EDIT: To clear up some confusion - most code jurisdictions don't force you to update existing installs unless you are rebuilding/remodeling - so if you have an older apartment/home ... who knows. New construction is going to vent gas ranges to the outdoors.
Range hoods with powered vents are required, by code, basically everywhere in the US and Canada.
In fact, many code jurisdictions are sophisticated enough to require make-up air ducts, etc.
These building codes specify vertical distance from the rangetop, CFM rating, and hood area (which typically overlaps the range area by 2-4 inches on each side).
EDIT: To clear up some confusion - most code jurisdictions don't force you to update existing installs unless you are rebuilding/remodeling - so if you have an older apartment/home ... who knows. New construction is going to vent gas ranges to the outdoors.
> Range hoods with powered vents are required, by code, basically everywhere in the US and Canada.
The majority of apartments I've lived in, in NYC, do not have range hoods at all.
Ones that had been remodeled in the past 10 years had a range vent that just went through a useless mesh "filter" and straight back into the apartment.
The only working range hood (vented to outside) I've ever had is in my current building which was constructed less than five years ago.
Maybe it's required for new construction, but in a place like NYC the vast majority of apartments aren't new, and certainly don't have range hoods.
The majority of apartments I've lived in, in NYC, do not have range hoods at all.
Ones that had been remodeled in the past 10 years had a range vent that just went through a useless mesh "filter" and straight back into the apartment.
The only working range hood (vented to outside) I've ever had is in my current building which was constructed less than five years ago.
Maybe it's required for new construction, but in a place like NYC the vast majority of apartments aren't new, and certainly don't have range hoods.
Man that's concerning, I have a suburban sized home with high ceilings, and when I don't turn the gas range hood to vent to outside on I can feel how heavy the air is on my lungs.
Range hoods with powered vents are required, by code, basically everywhere in the US and Canada.
Is "powered vent" supposed to imply exhausting to the exterior? While every home I've seen does have some sort of powered vent over a gas range, the overwhelming majority of them have recirculating vents rather external venting.
Is "powered vent" supposed to imply exhausting to the exterior? While every home I've seen does have some sort of powered vent over a gas range, the overwhelming majority of them have recirculating vents rather external venting.
My current apartment has a range hood without any exhaust vent. What the hell is that supposed to do?!
In my experience, those are only effective as a grease trap, catching the aerosolized particles of cooking oil/fat.
Typically they have removable metal screens that can be cleaned.
Otherwise they do nothing to vent smoke or purify air.
Typically they have removable metal screens that can be cleaned.
Otherwise they do nothing to vent smoke or purify air.
It might have a carbon filter, which is pretty effective. Need to change it every few years though...
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Same here; we have a gas stove and a useless range hood above it. I guess it's supposed to filter it? Or previous owner installed it just to skirt the requirements ;-<
I've had that for two apartments in a row. The most it can do is direct fumes to the ceiling instead of in your face. Incredibly little effect, when I then need to had the windows open with a box fan for a few hours any time I pan-fry anything. It's very frustrating, as those fumes could have been caught and exhausted from the source with much less exchange of air.
Many/most don't vent to outside. They're just to catch aerosolized grease in some steel filters that can be washed.
> Range hoods with powered vents are required, by code, basically everywhere in the US and Canada.
Some sort of fan is required.
That fan is often a down draft vent, or a vent that rises up from the back of the stove and sucks horizontally THEN down.
These horrible setups are popular even in luxury construction. They do look nice after all.
That said I am wondering if maybe they are better for NO2 emissions.
They are terrible in every other way though, but are quite legal as indicated by their presence in new construction.
Some sort of fan is required.
That fan is often a down draft vent, or a vent that rises up from the back of the stove and sucks horizontally THEN down.
These horrible setups are popular even in luxury construction. They do look nice after all.
That said I am wondering if maybe they are better for NO2 emissions.
They are terrible in every other way though, but are quite legal as indicated by their presence in new construction.
I assumed exhaust fans till this comment. They are ubiquitious in India and are always black and sooty.
This does seem intuitive and it's a real shame because I find gas stoves to be so much better to cook on. Electric/hotplate stoves are really slow and unreactive. Induction stoves are better and heat up really quickly but still feel awkward to cook on. You can't tilt the pan to baste without it turning off.
There is a limit to the height you can tilt but you definitely can on the units I've used. I sear and baste in cast iron very often. If you lift it too high the stove will warn you that it does not detect a pan.
I’m glad that we’re taking steps to reduce pollution of the environment, but this treats only one symptom of indoor air pollution. As with Covid this year and secondhand cigarette smoke last decade, the problems of gas stoves stem not just from the burner, but from the ventilation of the environment around it.
If we had required excellent fresh air ventilation for indoor spaces, we might not have had to ban indoor smoking. I don’t smoke but I don’t mind if others do, as long as I have fresh air that isn’t polluted by their smoke. We might not have had to ban indoor dining during Covid, as long as each table’s air is pulled upwards and away from other diners and exhausted into fresh air, since the ventilation could contain UV scrubbers on intake and exhaust. As another comment here describes, we wouldn’t have people being poisoned by gas stoves, because the pollution would be vented rapidly in any building where they’re used.
Confronting the ventilation crisis is unfathomably difficult for America, and it’s unclear if politicians have the stomach to even consider it. I’m a little sad each time I see some new cause spin up to resolve an issue stemming from poor ventilation, even as I’m happy that the cause is correct in outcome. I just wish that we’d stop circling the issue and hone in on it and make it a national crisis, somehow. At the end of the day doing so would demand nationwide investment in revisions to the ventilation of every building in America, which would require national funding as most cannot afford to do so - and those that can would refuse, preferring to lobby against it instead of spending their own money.
In the meantime, crack the windows of your home as often as you can afford to do so. This problem isn’t the fault of any single renter or homeowner, and in the short term, that’s all you can do.
Ventilation previously on HN (139 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19858155
If we had required excellent fresh air ventilation for indoor spaces, we might not have had to ban indoor smoking. I don’t smoke but I don’t mind if others do, as long as I have fresh air that isn’t polluted by their smoke. We might not have had to ban indoor dining during Covid, as long as each table’s air is pulled upwards and away from other diners and exhausted into fresh air, since the ventilation could contain UV scrubbers on intake and exhaust. As another comment here describes, we wouldn’t have people being poisoned by gas stoves, because the pollution would be vented rapidly in any building where they’re used.
Confronting the ventilation crisis is unfathomably difficult for America, and it’s unclear if politicians have the stomach to even consider it. I’m a little sad each time I see some new cause spin up to resolve an issue stemming from poor ventilation, even as I’m happy that the cause is correct in outcome. I just wish that we’d stop circling the issue and hone in on it and make it a national crisis, somehow. At the end of the day doing so would demand nationwide investment in revisions to the ventilation of every building in America, which would require national funding as most cannot afford to do so - and those that can would refuse, preferring to lobby against it instead of spending their own money.
In the meantime, crack the windows of your home as often as you can afford to do so. This problem isn’t the fault of any single renter or homeowner, and in the short term, that’s all you can do.
Ventilation previously on HN (139 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19858155
tl;dr: also leave your furnace fan in the on/recirculate mode rather than auto.
--
Also if you have a central furnace, leave the fan in the on/recirculate mode, rather than 'auto'. The power usage of modern furnace fans is very minimal, and the effect on air quality is significant. Especially if your furnace has a fresh air intake, which most do.
You can combine that with periodically cracking windows or running bathroom or stove exhaust fans (could even install a switch to automatically run the bathroom fan on a daily schedule). When things are sealed up, the furnace won't pull in a lot of outside air (but the recirculating still helps a lot), and then when you have an exhaust path (fan or window), it will pull in more. Then it's just a matter of finding out how much to exhaust. A bit each day should be fine, or you can get more precise with a CO2 sensor like [1]. Especially in a closed bedroom overnight, it's amazing the difference you'll see with the furnace fan and/or an exhaust fan running, or a window open.
1: https://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-Autopilot-Desktop-Monitor-L...
--
Also if you have a central furnace, leave the fan in the on/recirculate mode, rather than 'auto'. The power usage of modern furnace fans is very minimal, and the effect on air quality is significant. Especially if your furnace has a fresh air intake, which most do.
You can combine that with periodically cracking windows or running bathroom or stove exhaust fans (could even install a switch to automatically run the bathroom fan on a daily schedule). When things are sealed up, the furnace won't pull in a lot of outside air (but the recirculating still helps a lot), and then when you have an exhaust path (fan or window), it will pull in more. Then it's just a matter of finding out how much to exhaust. A bit each day should be fine, or you can get more precise with a CO2 sensor like [1]. Especially in a closed bedroom overnight, it's amazing the difference you'll see with the furnace fan and/or an exhaust fan running, or a window open.
1: https://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-Autopilot-Desktop-Monitor-L...
I would have loved to see the data of gas alone compared to the data when gas range is properly vented.
Same. I’m disappointed that CARB’s solution is to ban all gas from homes by 2022 instead of finding ways to make gas safer, ie ventilate it outside. Gas ranges cook MUCH better than electric in almost every way, so why shouldn’t we be allowed to use them if they can be used safely?
If you ever get a chance, try an induction stove. We got one because the size of the gas line into our house was marginal for running heater, hot water, and a couple of fireplaces concurrently. I just didn't want to futz with potential problems. It turned out to be a great decision. They are remarkably safe. The surface only gets hot from heat from the pan so it doesn't bake stuff on like electric/gas. It boils water just as fast as gas and is quite responsive. The only downside is that the pans must be ferrous, but that has turned out to not be too big of a deal. Also the oven is electric, which in my opinion is actually better than gas - the broiler works better in particular.
I've used induction stoves at friends' places and at AirBnBs and I've always hated them. Possibly I just need to spend more time with one to learn it. They're super fast at boiling water, yes, but whenever I've frying stuff it seems extremely picky about alignment and eventually starts beeping at me and shutting off. I also had lots of difficulty picking a perfect power level, which is trivial with gas. The granularity in the digital controls seems too poor, or it has something to do with the thermostat not having direct contact like it does in an old electric stove?
The biggest issue though is every IH stove I've used has had touch controls on the top glass panel which means if you have any spills or overflow, you can't even turn it off.
The biggest issue though is every IH stove I've used has had touch controls on the top glass panel which means if you have any spills or overflow, you can't even turn it off.
We love our induction stoves, but definitely have had issues finding ones that have good controls. A lot of the cheap units don't have much granularity in heat settings, but the higher end ones have gas-like, nearly continuous options. All of them, high and low end, seem to be suffering (like cars) from some of the modern UX theory that if something can possibly be a touch screen it should be.
We've settled for a unit that has physical, clickable, tactile buttons to control the temperature and a numeric readout that clearly states the current temp and all controls on the side, away from spills. I'd love to find an induction stove with a plan old knob for each hob though.
We've settled for a unit that has physical, clickable, tactile buttons to control the temperature and a numeric readout that clearly states the current temp and all controls on the side, away from spills. I'd love to find an induction stove with a plan old knob for each hob though.
Maybe I don’t cook enough, but your biggest issue is one I never face. A) I very rarely have any spills, and B) when I do, they’re never so much that they cover the controls (which are at front and center of stove, and not by the burners themselves, which is the way mast are designed).
Just seems like an odd issue for it to be your “biggest” turnoff from induction.
Just seems like an odd issue for it to be your “biggest” turnoff from induction.
I recently switched to an induction range and so far I've considered it a downgrade from gas (maybe that will change over time).
For some reason I get a buzzing sound when the stove applies current (minor).
It does have the instant heat that gas does, but what I've noticed is it doesn't have the visual feedback. When cooking with gas, it's easy to tell how much you've turned the heat up or down, just look at the flame.
I'll probably get used to it over time, but I miss gas at this point in time.
For some reason I get a buzzing sound when the stove applies current (minor).
It does have the instant heat that gas does, but what I've noticed is it doesn't have the visual feedback. When cooking with gas, it's easy to tell how much you've turned the heat up or down, just look at the flame.
I'll probably get used to it over time, but I miss gas at this point in time.
Those are accurate and reasonable criticisms. I've gotten used to all that over time. I'm not a sophisticated cook by any means so my need for feedback is not boiling something over (setting of 6.5 or so does the job for mac and cheese after it's boiling). I am the family safety officer though. Love the fact that it's not a super hot surface and that I won't be running across the house after smelling gas - an actual event that could have made for a bad Thanksgiving. I'm also the cleanup guy. After three years and almost no scrubbing the surface still looks new.
There you go. I may just be an old crank who doesn't like change.
I did put up with electric resistive for a long time before switching to gas and I dealt with it just fine. I'm only 1 month into inductive so let's see how things go. In the grand scheme of things I'm pretty sure I've survive. :)
I did put up with electric resistive for a long time before switching to gas and I dealt with it just fine. I'm only 1 month into inductive so let's see how things go. In the grand scheme of things I'm pretty sure I've survive. :)
I switched ~8 years ago and wouldn't go back to gas. No buzzing sound although if you listen very carefully there is a faint 'thrum' when it is active.
Visual feedback is from a number (1..9) displayed per induction ring. There is also a per-hob 'h' when it is off but still considered hot. When you activate a hob you can start it at strength 4 (of 9) or 9 (full-on). Or 1 and keep pressing up or down buttons to the setting you want. I'm used to this now.
Cleanability is awesome. Because the whole surface is flat, unused rings can also be used as a heat-proof surface when you have lots of hot pans that would scorch a normal work-surface. I think it keep things warm (without sticking) better than gas because the heat is better distributed over the whole bottom of a pan.
Main downside is that it is useless in a power-cut.
Visual feedback is from a number (1..9) displayed per induction ring. There is also a per-hob 'h' when it is off but still considered hot. When you activate a hob you can start it at strength 4 (of 9) or 9 (full-on). Or 1 and keep pressing up or down buttons to the setting you want. I'm used to this now.
Cleanability is awesome. Because the whole surface is flat, unused rings can also be used as a heat-proof surface when you have lots of hot pans that would scorch a normal work-surface. I think it keep things warm (without sticking) better than gas because the heat is better distributed over the whole bottom of a pan.
Main downside is that it is useless in a power-cut.
> I've noticed is it doesn't have the visual feedback
Does it not have a power/intensity knob or setting that’s displayed? Even with gas ranges that’s what is used because the flame is blocked by the pot.
Does it not have a power/intensity knob or setting that’s displayed? Even with gas ranges that’s what is used because the flame is blocked by the pot.
I can glance under the pot to see the flame.
On my induction stove, 5 is medium and 6 is boiling. Not linear at all.
On my induction stove, 5 is medium and 6 is boiling. Not linear at all.
I suspect that's a problem specific to your stove model.
As you visit friend's places, see if they have different brands of inductive stovetop, and try them out if they do.
Also maybe try a pot with a thicker ferrous base?
As you visit friend's places, see if they have different brands of inductive stovetop, and try them out if they do.
Also maybe try a pot with a thicker ferrous base?
Electric induction works pretty well. It's the resistive stoves that are crap.
I dislike the fact that gas stoves typically come attached to gas ovens, and gas ovens are kinda crap. Electric/resistive actually works better there. Less moisture, less smells, more efficient, seems to heat up faster and give off less waste heat.
I dislike the fact that gas stoves typically come attached to gas ovens, and gas ovens are kinda crap. Electric/resistive actually works better there. Less moisture, less smells, more efficient, seems to heat up faster and give off less waste heat.
Honestly, induction works better than all but the most high-end gas ranges. The cheaper gas burners can produce the BTUs, they just do a poor job utilizing them. Induction, OTOH, puts nearly 100% of its energy into the pan.
Is it? It has been a while since I read it but there was an article comparing the energy efficiency of different cooking devices and even though induction cooker is at the top the efficiency is only 70%-80% something.
Edit: Found it:
> There are no Energy Star® certifications for ranges, but research by the U.S. Department of Energy indicates an induction cooker is 84% efficient at energy transfer, versus 74% for a smooth-top electric unit, giving it a heating performance comparable to a gas element. More significantly, induction is 90% efficient with its power use, using 2.8 kW to deliver 2.52 kW. This is a substantial improvement over electric coils, which use 2.0 kW to deliver 1.1 kW (a 55% efficiency), and over gas, which uses 3.5 kW to generate 1.75 kW (a 50% efficiency).
https://insteading.com/blog/energy-efficient-induction-cooki...
Edit: Found it:
> There are no Energy Star® certifications for ranges, but research by the U.S. Department of Energy indicates an induction cooker is 84% efficient at energy transfer, versus 74% for a smooth-top electric unit, giving it a heating performance comparable to a gas element. More significantly, induction is 90% efficient with its power use, using 2.8 kW to deliver 2.52 kW. This is a substantial improvement over electric coils, which use 2.0 kW to deliver 1.1 kW (a 55% efficiency), and over gas, which uses 3.5 kW to generate 1.75 kW (a 50% efficiency).
https://insteading.com/blog/energy-efficient-induction-cooki...
So with many gas ranges, most of the BTUs produced go up past the side of the pan and into the exhaust vent, rather than getting absorbed by the pan and used to heat your food. Fancy Wolf and Vulcan ranges have burner designs that mitigate this issue, but I've never see them on anything cheaper than a few thousand dollars.
OTOH, even a basic GE induction range has almost no heat waste. So while a burner might only be rated for 10k BTUs, all of that heat is going into your pan. Which is how they do things like boil water in 2 minutes.
The biggest issue with induction is that the larger ones have enormous power requirements.
OTOH, even a basic GE induction range has almost no heat waste. So while a burner might only be rated for 10k BTUs, all of that heat is going into your pan. Which is how they do things like boil water in 2 minutes.
The biggest issue with induction is that the larger ones have enormous power requirements.
mywittyname says >"The biggest issue with induction is that the larger ones have enormous power requirements."<
No, the biggest issue is that electrical power is not (easily) available everywhere (think "wherever you camp") and always (think "earthquakes and hurricanes"). But I can carry or find gas/oil/coal/wood almost anywhere. How many trash fires in the inner city of Chicago on a cold night? There are always political signs, trash, and/or wood from buildings available to burn. Nothing like warming your hands by a barrel fire with a bunch of friends!
No, the biggest issue is that electrical power is not (easily) available everywhere (think "wherever you camp") and always (think "earthquakes and hurricanes"). But I can carry or find gas/oil/coal/wood almost anywhere. How many trash fires in the inner city of Chicago on a cold night? There are always political signs, trash, and/or wood from buildings available to burn. Nothing like warming your hands by a barrel fire with a bunch of friends!
Yeah, I was firmly in the "gas is best for cooking because of the control and the amount of heat it produces" camp, but since we got a decent induction hob I would never go back to gas. It cooks even faster(the largest 2500W ring at full power is a serious thing) than gas, with full control and the cleanup is stupidly easy because nothing ever burns to the surface, unlike many gas/ceramic ranges.
+1 for induction stoves. We gutted and redid a house a few years ago, and decided to go with induction primarily to avoid the complexity of running gas to where the new kitchen was. No regrets.
Induction technology has come a long way; make sure to read reviews and get a stovetop that does "simmering" well. Also make sure to think about the interface -- a lot of induction stoves require two steps to change the temperature (first click several times to choose the burner, then click several times to adjust the temperature up or down). We went with one that had a full range of buttons for each burner; only one press required for any one change.
Induction technology has come a long way; make sure to read reviews and get a stovetop that does "simmering" well. Also make sure to think about the interface -- a lot of induction stoves require two steps to change the temperature (first click several times to choose the burner, then click several times to adjust the temperature up or down). We went with one that had a full range of buttons for each burner; only one press required for any one change.
> Gas ranges cook MUCH better than electric in almost every way
Not modern electric ones. I cook a lot, and I moved from a kitchen with a modern electric range, to a gas one... and it was a definite downgrade.
Quite simply, modern electric ranges will heat your pan faster than gas ones can. It's seriously crazy. And of course they heat more evenly, instead of in a single "ring" in the middle or outside of your pan.
I'm not even talking about expensive inductive ranges. I'm talking about electric resistance ones -- but modern ones that are a single smooth surface of glass/ceramic.
The only change you have to get used to is that if you need to instantly reduce the heat, you need to move the pan off the burner rather than just turn it off. But that's just a change in habit.
Also modern glass-top ranges are infinitely easier to clean. Just a single smooth surface.
Not modern electric ones. I cook a lot, and I moved from a kitchen with a modern electric range, to a gas one... and it was a definite downgrade.
Quite simply, modern electric ranges will heat your pan faster than gas ones can. It's seriously crazy. And of course they heat more evenly, instead of in a single "ring" in the middle or outside of your pan.
I'm not even talking about expensive inductive ranges. I'm talking about electric resistance ones -- but modern ones that are a single smooth surface of glass/ceramic.
The only change you have to get used to is that if you need to instantly reduce the heat, you need to move the pan off the burner rather than just turn it off. But that's just a change in habit.
Also modern glass-top ranges are infinitely easier to clean. Just a single smooth surface.
> Not modern electric ones. I cook a lot, and I moved from a kitchen with a modern electric range, to a gas one... and it was a definite downgrade.
My only concern is how well a wok will heat up on induction.
Gas has the benefit of wrapping around the wok, I worry that induction won't do that. :/
I hate the smooth glass electric stoves, if a pan is even slightly warped it won't work. I've waited 20+ minutes for a pot of water to boil on an electric glass top because the pot had a slight bow to it so only a tiny fraction sat on the actual stove.
Also the last glass top I had got messed up the first time a sugary liquid over boiled and spilled on it. Never could get it looking brand new again (and most glass tops I've seen have stains, even after being vigorously cleaned by professionals!)
My only concern is how well a wok will heat up on induction.
Gas has the benefit of wrapping around the wok, I worry that induction won't do that. :/
I hate the smooth glass electric stoves, if a pan is even slightly warped it won't work. I've waited 20+ minutes for a pot of water to boil on an electric glass top because the pot had a slight bow to it so only a tiny fraction sat on the actual stove.
Also the last glass top I had got messed up the first time a sugary liquid over boiled and spilled on it. Never could get it looking brand new again (and most glass tops I've seen have stains, even after being vigorously cleaned by professionals!)
Yes, if you cook seriously with a wok, then gas is an absolute must. But then even a normal gas range won't work -- you need one that will output the insane-sized heat that is required for a true stir-fry. Of course, not many people go to those lengths... :)
As for warped pans, I never had that problem -- all my stuff is thick stainless steel-clad pots and pans. That's interesting though, it makes sense -- it would need full contact for effective heat transfer.
As for warped pans, I never had that problem -- all my stuff is thick stainless steel-clad pots and pans. That's interesting though, it makes sense -- it would need full contact for effective heat transfer.
> As for warped pans, I never had that problem -- all my stuff is thick stainless steel-clad pots and pans.
College, I had thin aluminium because I was broke. Everything was warped.
Thinner non-stick pans also warp really easily.
Thicker pots and pans take longer to heat up, sometimes a lot longer. e.g. My 1.5q pot can take over 10 minutes to boil water. Making hard boiled eggs is annoying, to say the least.
(I'm using gas, and one of my back burners is too weak to even boil water in my thick 3 layer pots...)
College, I had thin aluminium because I was broke. Everything was warped.
Thinner non-stick pans also warp really easily.
Thicker pots and pans take longer to heat up, sometimes a lot longer. e.g. My 1.5q pot can take over 10 minutes to boil water. Making hard boiled eggs is annoying, to say the least.
(I'm using gas, and one of my back burners is too weak to even boil water in my thick 3 layer pots...)
Huh! I never thought of that, about boiling time.
I wouldn't think it would make a huge difference, since the weight of the pot is a relatively small proportion of the weight of the water.
Turns out someone tested it:
https://www.centurylife.org/what-kind-of-pot-boils-water-fas...
And the aluminum wins over steel-clad by 30 seconds, when heating two liters of water.
If you're seeing much larger differences, perhaps it's more to do with the pot diameter or something? Or if you're heating very small amounts of water?
I wouldn't think it would make a huge difference, since the weight of the pot is a relatively small proportion of the weight of the water.
Turns out someone tested it:
https://www.centurylife.org/what-kind-of-pot-boils-water-fas...
And the aluminum wins over steel-clad by 30 seconds, when heating two liters of water.
If you're seeing much larger differences, perhaps it's more to do with the pot diameter or something? Or if you're heating very small amounts of water?
> If you're seeing much larger differences, perhaps it's more to do with the pot diameter or something?
Small diameter pot, large gas flame. The flame doesn't hit the bottom of the pot at all. I can heat up 2x the water in my pot that has 2x the diameter in less time.
Sucks.
The old fashion type of electric burner in that article is my 2nd favorite, great contact with almost any type of pot or pan put down on it.
The best pot I ever had for heating water was of the dollar store variety. It was pretty much the minimal vessel needed to just hold the water.
Wider diameter pots of course work best, assuming a lid is put on. More bottom surface area to transfer heat to the water.
Small diameter pot, large gas flame. The flame doesn't hit the bottom of the pot at all. I can heat up 2x the water in my pot that has 2x the diameter in less time.
Sucks.
The old fashion type of electric burner in that article is my 2nd favorite, great contact with almost any type of pot or pan put down on it.
The best pot I ever had for heating water was of the dollar store variety. It was pretty much the minimal vessel needed to just hold the water.
Wider diameter pots of course work best, assuming a lid is put on. More bottom surface area to transfer heat to the water.
> "I hate the smooth glass electric stoves, if a pan is even slightly warped it won't work."
I had this issue and ended up replacing my set of cheap and cheerfull, thin-ish and slightly warped pans with heavy, thick stainless steel ones that hopefully don't have a tendency to warp. So far so good.
I had this issue and ended up replacing my set of cheap and cheerfull, thin-ish and slightly warped pans with heavy, thick stainless steel ones that hopefully don't have a tendency to warp. So far so good.
> I had this issue and ended up replacing my set of cheap and cheerfull, thin-ish and slightly warped pans with heavy, thick stainless steel ones that hopefully don't have a tendency to warp. So far so good.
Gah, same, but now my triple clad stainless steel -> copper -> stainless steel pot takes forever to heat up because of how thick it is.
I bought an electric kettle for tea but that doesn't help keep noodles from taking 16 minutes to make, the first 10 of which is boiling the water.
Now I am using gas, so my next purchase is going to be another cheap thin pot that heats up before the rest of dinner is done.
Gah, same, but now my triple clad stainless steel -> copper -> stainless steel pot takes forever to heat up because of how thick it is.
I bought an electric kettle for tea but that doesn't help keep noodles from taking 16 minutes to make, the first 10 of which is boiling the water.
Now I am using gas, so my next purchase is going to be another cheap thin pot that heats up before the rest of dinner is done.
> Quite simply, modern electric ranges will heat your pan faster than gas ones can.
I'd like to emphasize "modern" here. Just a month or two ago I replaced an old resistive electric stove with a new resistive electric stove - and it heats shockingly better than the old one.
I'd like to emphasize "modern" here. Just a month or two ago I replaced an old resistive electric stove with a new resistive electric stove - and it heats shockingly better than the old one.
Electric glass-cooktop ranges also provide added benefit to landlords. All the landlord needs to do is require that the tenant leave the range in pristine condition or forfeit the cost of replacing the cooktop from their security deposit. Since it's virtually impossible for a person who actually cooks to leave the cooktop in like-new condition after a year -- even with special cooktop cleansers -- you may never have to pay a security deposit back in full, ever again!
This isn't generally true in the US. Rental laws typically allow for normal wear and tear.
I've been using Barkeeper's Friend to clean mine since we started. It seems quite effective, though impossible to get it back to absolute pristine condition.
Gas is NOT “much better”.
When boiling a pot of water, induction is 74 percent efficient at transforming and transferring input energy to the water, and the gas range comes in at 32 percent. The induction method was 32 percent faster and consumed 57 percent less energy. [1]
We have an induction cooktop, and it’s amazing how quickly it can bring liquids to a boil.
The only thing I can see that gas has over induction electric is durability. You can slam pans down without worry of breaking the cooktop. Useful in a commercial setting, but at home I’d take induction over gas any day.
[1] https://www.treehugger.com/which-more-energy-efficient-cooki...
When boiling a pot of water, induction is 74 percent efficient at transforming and transferring input energy to the water, and the gas range comes in at 32 percent. The induction method was 32 percent faster and consumed 57 percent less energy. [1]
We have an induction cooktop, and it’s amazing how quickly it can bring liquids to a boil.
The only thing I can see that gas has over induction electric is durability. You can slam pans down without worry of breaking the cooktop. Useful in a commercial setting, but at home I’d take induction over gas any day.
[1] https://www.treehugger.com/which-more-energy-efficient-cooki...
>so why shouldn’t we be allowed to use them if they can be used safely?
Because California generally decides these things not based on whether they can be done safely, but whether they can be done unsafely. If someone could be harmed by something then nobody can have that something. That's just how they do things.
Because California generally decides these things not based on whether they can be done safely, but whether they can be done unsafely. If someone could be harmed by something then nobody can have that something. That's just how they do things.
Right. And there's going to be a big difference between new appliances and 40-year-machinery that's still in old houses. It's worth splitting that out.
Unrelated to the article, but I'm surprised how many new gas stoves do not have a flame interlock on the burner valve. I have a nearly new Samsung gas range, and if I twist the valve just a bit too far past the igniter stage, it will happily pump propane into my home until my 500 gallon tank runs empty.
> Unrelated to the article, but I'm surprised how many new gas stoves do not have a flame interlock on the burner valve.
In Germany, it's (mostly) mandated by law to have these (see §4 FeuV for example: https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/BayFeuV2008-4), the only exception is when there's a powerful forced air ventilation system present and operating. Can't remember ever not seeing an interlock as a result, even the cheap IKEA gas stoves have one.
In Germany, it's (mostly) mandated by law to have these (see §4 FeuV for example: https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/BayFeuV2008-4), the only exception is when there's a powerful forced air ventilation system present and operating. Can't remember ever not seeing an interlock as a result, even the cheap IKEA gas stoves have one.
The Kenmore stove that was installed here has the ignition feature past the 9 levels of gas you can choose to release. That means to even get a flame going there would have to be wasted gas pushed into the air, and a lot of times it does not even light for several seconds, which usually leads to a following smell.
There is no way to make a stove safe in the face of incorrect usage. I wouldn't be able to judge whether flame interlocks should be mandatory without any statistics about the frequency of this type of accident.
Sure. The risk is low, it just seems unusual given the tendency to wrap everything in five layers of liability reduction features.
It seems society's tolerance for mortal danger depends more on the cause of the risk than its magnitude. I guess the occasional gas accident is one of the acceptable reasons for people to die.
This is the first time I hear about the dangers of gas cooking. I have to admit I haven't read the whole article but from experience gas is much more pleasant to use. Excepting the fact that you have a nice glass surface that is easy to clean, cooking with electric is frustrating.
> The people most burdened by these impacts are those who struggle the most to pay for cleaner alternatives
I don't believe cost is the main issue, rather lack of awarness. I just checked, in Uk you find both gas and electric hobs for the same price tag - stating from 100 gbp.
The biggest cost of installing a electic cooktop is actually having dedicated wiring with a 32amp fuse. This is more tricky in old builds, it could require changing the fuse box and running new wires - a lot of mess. In new builds it is more common to have this by default.
So it's not exactlly a case of rich/poor but rather old/new.
> The people most burdened by these impacts are those who struggle the most to pay for cleaner alternatives
I don't believe cost is the main issue, rather lack of awarness. I just checked, in Uk you find both gas and electric hobs for the same price tag - stating from 100 gbp.
The biggest cost of installing a electic cooktop is actually having dedicated wiring with a 32amp fuse. This is more tricky in old builds, it could require changing the fuse box and running new wires - a lot of mess. In new builds it is more common to have this by default.
So it's not exactlly a case of rich/poor but rather old/new.
Try induction, definitely different than the standard smoothtop ceramic electric. Fast as gas, easy cleanup, efficient.
I'd be interested to try but I'm told that induction will not work well for what I cook which is mostly chinese food in a wok, unless I have a huge amount of money to drop on an induction stove specially made for woks.
> California is the birthplace of a growing movement by towns and cities to ban natural gas use in new construction. Nearly 40 cities and towns throughout the state have adopted ordinances mandating all-electric appliances in new residential buildings, with San Francisco among the most recent to do so.
Good luck trying that in Europe, where gas price is a fraction of electricity (~6ct / kWh vs ~30ct / kWh). Additionally, using electricity for heating is madness - essentially the generator plant burns stuff to turn water into steam that rotates a generator, then there are transmission losses, and only then it's finally converted to heat. A gas flame is as direct an energy-to-heat transmission as it gets (although there are some losses here too, for compression stations).
I'm paying 60€ a month for gas for both the heating and the stove in a ~60 m2 apartment, and 70€ in electricity. My direct neighbors who have electric heating and stove pay over 200€.
Regarding the pollutant issue: open your windows while cooking, get a CO alarm and have your water heater regularly cleaned and inspected. That's basic life advice, and the latter is actually mandated by law in Germany.
Good luck trying that in Europe, where gas price is a fraction of electricity (~6ct / kWh vs ~30ct / kWh). Additionally, using electricity for heating is madness - essentially the generator plant burns stuff to turn water into steam that rotates a generator, then there are transmission losses, and only then it's finally converted to heat. A gas flame is as direct an energy-to-heat transmission as it gets (although there are some losses here too, for compression stations).
I'm paying 60€ a month for gas for both the heating and the stove in a ~60 m2 apartment, and 70€ in electricity. My direct neighbors who have electric heating and stove pay over 200€.
Regarding the pollutant issue: open your windows while cooking, get a CO alarm and have your water heater regularly cleaned and inspected. That's basic life advice, and the latter is actually mandated by law in Germany.
And still cooking on gas stove is so much more satisfying than electric. It can go from 0 power to full thermal power sand back to zero instantly. It's compatible with all kinds of cookware. Cast iron? Check. Wok? Check. Aluminium moka pot? Check. And even the sound of gas stove provides such an important cue. I suppose we should take ventilation more seriously, but gas is just better for cooking.
In SF I can open my windows year-round, so I just do that when cooking. I honestly doubt the gas fumes are the main issue for most of the cooking - the smoke from sizzling / frying seems way more impactful.
I have a suspicion that the statistics in the article are more because people with electric cooktops don't cook as much, and simply use the microwave instead.
I have a suspicion that the statistics in the article are more because people with electric cooktops don't cook as much, and simply use the microwave instead.
Induction hobs are better - much more precise, easier to clean, more efficient, and full power is almost as quick as gas.
You can't use a real wok on an induction cooktop.
Adcraft IND-WOK208V
You need 208v from three phase per or a 240v buck transformer though...
I use a 208v Adcraft induction cooktop for beer brewing and it's strong. Boils 6 gallons of liquid easily. Just using a 240 to 208v transformer.
You need 208v from three phase per or a 240v buck transformer though...
I use a 208v Adcraft induction cooktop for beer brewing and it's strong. Boils 6 gallons of liquid easily. Just using a 240 to 208v transformer.
That requires a flat-bottom wok no?
I'm curious about the correlation though - some forms of cooking, e.g. deep frying, are extremely difficult with an electric stove and create way more particulate matter / fumes than the burning gas itself. Heck even cooking itself is a lot easier with a gas cooktop, so you're likely to cook more instead of using the microwave, resulting in more smoke.
Most stoves in homes I see have no venting to the outside which is absurd. You should see how the CO2 goes up in the room when you cook.
I've lived in newer buildings the past 6 years or so, with modern HVAC systems, the works.
One thing each of them has had (or neglected, really) is a phony vent for the stove. There is a hood fan, and what appears to be conduit leading to a vent, but there isn't actually any vent. It's an empty casing made of chipboard. The hood fan just blows upward onto the front of the cabinets above the stove and leaves a delightfully greasy trail.
At best, it does some minor filtering. But based on the grease deposits on the aforementioned cabinets, it doesn't do much.
We're moving to townhouse about an hour outside of town [in a beautiful town on the escarpment to boot]. The house was built in 1896 and has better venting than our current modern, downtown "luxury" condo.
And the dust. Let me tell you about the dust. It's unceasing here. We can dust one day and inside of a week it will be as dusty as if nobody has lived here in months. We're looking forward to being in a space that has been built and tended to be lived in rather than an image of a dwelling that is really only a vehicle for investment.
One thing each of them has had (or neglected, really) is a phony vent for the stove. There is a hood fan, and what appears to be conduit leading to a vent, but there isn't actually any vent. It's an empty casing made of chipboard. The hood fan just blows upward onto the front of the cabinets above the stove and leaves a delightfully greasy trail.
At best, it does some minor filtering. But based on the grease deposits on the aforementioned cabinets, it doesn't do much.
We're moving to townhouse about an hour outside of town [in a beautiful town on the escarpment to boot]. The house was built in 1896 and has better venting than our current modern, downtown "luxury" condo.
And the dust. Let me tell you about the dust. It's unceasing here. We can dust one day and inside of a week it will be as dusty as if nobody has lived here in months. We're looking forward to being in a space that has been built and tended to be lived in rather than an image of a dwelling that is really only a vehicle for investment.
It seems there are three separate issues:
1. NO2 produced by gas appliances 2. Various pollutants produced during cooking 3. Poor venting
The article mostly pushes for legislative solutions to 1, namely banning new gas stoves and incentivizing electric stoves.
I wonder if improving ventilation and filtering might actually be a more effective solution, as it has the potential to address all three issues.
1. NO2 produced by gas appliances 2. Various pollutants produced during cooking 3. Poor venting
The article mostly pushes for legislative solutions to 1, namely banning new gas stoves and incentivizing electric stoves.
I wonder if improving ventilation and filtering might actually be a more effective solution, as it has the potential to address all three issues.
Solving 1 partially solves 2 since people will cook a lot less if they have to use electric cooktops.
So, fun fact, huge differences in efficiencies of removing pollutants even for vented range hoods.
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1420274
(Kinda long...)
tl;dr those stupid microwave exhaust vents may only remove, at worst, ~25% of no2 from the environment.
A cheap hood, 30%.
A really good hood, 90%.
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1420274
(Kinda long...)
tl;dr those stupid microwave exhaust vents may only remove, at worst, ~25% of no2 from the environment.
A cheap hood, 30%.
A really good hood, 90%.
>a health threat that has been hiding in plain sight for decades, they say—can no longer be ignored. “It’s fundamental and imperative,” said Jones. “We ought to get up on the rooftops and shout about it.”
This is kind of characteristic of the scientist-authoritarian perspective that breeds resentment of academia and science in general. Researchers spent decades, per the article, making up their minds that gas stoves are bad. Now, some of them want to see restrictions in place in a few years' time. The lay public is effectively asked to change their minds faster than the experts did.
A 24% increase in the risk of asthma is bad, but people knowingly choose to take bigger risks every day. This isn't an emergency: it would be really nice to see a proper communications strategy, because all of this shouting from the rooftops has contributed to an absolutely stupefying epidemic of ludicrous conspiracy theories.
This is kind of characteristic of the scientist-authoritarian perspective that breeds resentment of academia and science in general. Researchers spent decades, per the article, making up their minds that gas stoves are bad. Now, some of them want to see restrictions in place in a few years' time. The lay public is effectively asked to change their minds faster than the experts did.
A 24% increase in the risk of asthma is bad, but people knowingly choose to take bigger risks every day. This isn't an emergency: it would be really nice to see a proper communications strategy, because all of this shouting from the rooftops has contributed to an absolutely stupefying epidemic of ludicrous conspiracy theories.
Makes perfect sense to me, tax revenues are surging and we have already solved all other global emissions problems like coal and air travel so let's ban home appliances with extremely efficient complete combustion. The only thing is we need to do is follow the San Francisco model and make sure we have a waiver process for upscale restaurants and the wealthy so we can continue using Gas in our second and third kitchens.
Eliminating gas appliances by 2022 seems a bit on the extreme side when simply requiring vented range hoods would solve the issue. Requiring vented range hoods would be a good idea, regardless of the heat source. Smoke, from burning gas or burning chicken, generally isn't good.
IME, even with a hood, most people don't turn them on unless there are off-putting smells, which usually don't happen unless you're burning food. Sad thing is that most are fairly noisy.
I don't have a gas stove, but my AQ sensor reports high VOC while/after cooking and I'm reluctant to turn on the stove hood as it's so noisy.
I don't have a gas stove, but my AQ sensor reports high VOC while/after cooking and I'm reluctant to turn on the stove hood as it's so noisy.
[deleted]
I have a nice gas stovetop that I really like. The largest burner on it is 20kBTU/hr, and the regular size burners are 11kBTU/hr. Converted to Watts, that's 5.9 kW and 3.2 kW respectively. And keep in mind, those figures are per burner, and it's common for me to be using at least two of them at once (though not necessarily all at max power). I think I'd want a total power allowance of roughly 10 kW just for the stovetop burners, which works out to something like 40 amps at 240V. And it's gonna be more to support the oven, which is part of the same integrated units (the microwave, refrigerator, and countertop outlets for electric kettles, slow cookers, and such will also all need substantial power, but that's separate circuits). Apparently it's common these days in new construction to run a dedicated 50 amp 240V circuit just for the combo stove/range. That's something like 10 kW of continuous power @ an 80% safety margin!
Anyway, electrical kitchen appliances sure as hell do use a lot of power. Good thing you're not using them most of the day, and that even when you are using them, you're often not running them close to full power. But it does seem possible to achieve as much heating with electrical as with gas, which is nice. Hell, if you have some induction burners on that stovetop, and I tend to cook in cast iron so pretty much all of my most frequently used pots and pans would already work fine with induction anyway, then you wouldn't need anything close to 5.9 kW on the biggest burner to achieve the same heating. That's because one of the downsides of gas is that a lot of heat gets lost to the air, which isn't nearly as much of a problem on an electrical range where the cookware is sitting in direct contact with the heating element. Electrical thus achieves a higher overall heat transfer efficiency for the same power, especially with induction where the cookware itself becomes the heating element.
That's a bit of a digression but apparently you can achieve high power outputs with electrical stoves, it's just that a lot of the electrical stoves a lot of us have experience with are shitty ones from decades past that legitimately did not heat well.
Anyway, electrical kitchen appliances sure as hell do use a lot of power. Good thing you're not using them most of the day, and that even when you are using them, you're often not running them close to full power. But it does seem possible to achieve as much heating with electrical as with gas, which is nice. Hell, if you have some induction burners on that stovetop, and I tend to cook in cast iron so pretty much all of my most frequently used pots and pans would already work fine with induction anyway, then you wouldn't need anything close to 5.9 kW on the biggest burner to achieve the same heating. That's because one of the downsides of gas is that a lot of heat gets lost to the air, which isn't nearly as much of a problem on an electrical range where the cookware is sitting in direct contact with the heating element. Electrical thus achieves a higher overall heat transfer efficiency for the same power, especially with induction where the cookware itself becomes the heating element.
That's a bit of a digression but apparently you can achieve high power outputs with electrical stoves, it's just that a lot of the electrical stoves a lot of us have experience with are shitty ones from decades past that legitimately did not heat well.
I was looking at our breaker box a few weeks back and realized that roughly half the circuits in our house are for the kitchen. I think something like 6 separate breakers.
Our stove is on a 40 amp circuit. From my reading, 50 amp is pretty common.
On top of that there is a dedicated 20 amp circuit for our microwave (which broke a few years back and we never replaced)
Plus a dedicated circuit for the garbage disposal / dish washer.
Plus one for the fridge
Plus one or two more for countertop appliances.
It's kind of crazy to think about.
Our stove is on a 40 amp circuit. From my reading, 50 amp is pretty common.
On top of that there is a dedicated 20 amp circuit for our microwave (which broke a few years back and we never replaced)
Plus a dedicated circuit for the garbage disposal / dish washer.
Plus one for the fridge
Plus one or two more for countertop appliances.
It's kind of crazy to think about.
Yeah, it's kind of an under-appreciated fact that the good majority of the total potential and actual power draw of a home is composed of dedicated circuits for kitchen and laundry appliances and the HVAC stack, most of them 240V. The 120V 15 amp circuits servicing outlets in the rest of the rooms don't add up to much, especially now in the LED era.
One thing that bugs me is that there aren't counter-top 240V kitchen outlets. If I ever build my own house I'll put in an extra 240V circuit for the kitchen just so I can have some higher power outlets for electric kettles and such. You can boil water for tea twice as fast with 3 kW as with 1.5 kW, as those smug Brits always like to remind us about. I don't think I'd make much use out of 240V anywhere else (except obviously in the garage for EV charging), but just having a couple outlets in the kitchen would be a godsend.
One thing that bugs me is that there aren't counter-top 240V kitchen outlets. If I ever build my own house I'll put in an extra 240V circuit for the kitchen just so I can have some higher power outlets for electric kettles and such. You can boil water for tea twice as fast with 3 kW as with 1.5 kW, as those smug Brits always like to remind us about. I don't think I'd make much use out of 240V anywhere else (except obviously in the garage for EV charging), but just having a couple outlets in the kitchen would be a godsend.
I'm confused - isn't this what range hoods are for? If you turn on your hood fan to its maximum, then presumably the impact to air quality is minimal. I happen to also have a counter-top induction stove, and it ALSO will trip off my air filters. I don't think triggering air filters is necessarily an indication of unhealthy air - the smell of good food kicking is due to particles reaching your nose and that happens with all methods of heating up food.
But there is a greater philosophical question here: the article seems to be setting up for a war on gas stoves and gas heating. I know this is a goal of climate activists, and that push is already happening in places like Seattle where a prior attempt to ban gas in all new home construction was met with outrage and pulled back, only to now be replaced by a similar ban for commercial buildings (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/amid-incr...).
Personally I want to be able to use gas ranges for cooking - electric cooking is simply no match for it, and I also just like the idea of cooking with fire. Should the state really be imposing all sorts of controls and restrictions in search of perfect safety? Can individuals not evaluate and make risk-benefit tradeoffs that suit themselves? After all, most people who have gas stoves do not have health issues like asthma, and the statistics quoted in this article seem to just be correlations rather than causal relationships.
But there is a greater philosophical question here: the article seems to be setting up for a war on gas stoves and gas heating. I know this is a goal of climate activists, and that push is already happening in places like Seattle where a prior attempt to ban gas in all new home construction was met with outrage and pulled back, only to now be replaced by a similar ban for commercial buildings (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/amid-incr...).
Personally I want to be able to use gas ranges for cooking - electric cooking is simply no match for it, and I also just like the idea of cooking with fire. Should the state really be imposing all sorts of controls and restrictions in search of perfect safety? Can individuals not evaluate and make risk-benefit tradeoffs that suit themselves? After all, most people who have gas stoves do not have health issues like asthma, and the statistics quoted in this article seem to just be correlations rather than causal relationships.
It seems like the successor to high-end gas stoves is pretty clearly induction. At the same time induction on some level is just an overpriced way of transmitting electrical power from the cooktop into the cookware (not unlike the old inductive-paddle-type electric car chargers).
I wonder if there might be an opening for (electric) "conduction" cooktops. It would basically be a dedicated heat-proof and ventilated spot on the countertop with some high-current electrical receptacles (standard voltage in most of the world, but maybe wired for the slightly less common 240V in North America).
They might include temperature feedback (something I'd love to see in induction cooktops too, maybe an IR thermometer hitting the cookware from below), possibly with controls built into the kitchen rather than the cookware.
Of course this would substantially raise the cost of cookware, and in many ways this already exists in the form of "a countertop with electrical outlets and plug-in cooking appliances", but maybe there's an opportunity here.
I wonder if there might be an opening for (electric) "conduction" cooktops. It would basically be a dedicated heat-proof and ventilated spot on the countertop with some high-current electrical receptacles (standard voltage in most of the world, but maybe wired for the slightly less common 240V in North America).
They might include temperature feedback (something I'd love to see in induction cooktops too, maybe an IR thermometer hitting the cookware from below), possibly with controls built into the kitchen rather than the cookware.
Of course this would substantially raise the cost of cookware, and in many ways this already exists in the form of "a countertop with electrical outlets and plug-in cooking appliances", but maybe there's an opportunity here.
Have you seen the PolyScience Control ºFreak? Four of those types of elements on cooktop? yes, please!
If you have a gas range or oven (which I wish I did since they are basically banned in new construction) definitely turn the hood fan on high before turning on the gas and leave the fan on until after you turn it off. Otherwise your kitchen will fill up with methane, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide, and other pollutants. (Some when you turn the burner on, some during operation, and some when you turn it off.)
"the investigators estimated that, during a typical winter week, 1.7 million Californians could be exposed to CO levels that exceed standards for ambient air, and 12 million could be exposed to excessive NO2 levels, if they do not use venting range hoods during cooking."
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.122-A27
Also pilot lights are apparently responsible for about 30% of methane emissions from older gas appliances. So ventilate your house or switch to electric ignition.
"the investigators estimated that, during a typical winter week, 1.7 million Californians could be exposed to CO levels that exceed standards for ambient air, and 12 million could be exposed to excessive NO2 levels, if they do not use venting range hoods during cooking."
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.122-A27
Also pilot lights are apparently responsible for about 30% of methane emissions from older gas appliances. So ventilate your house or switch to electric ignition.
I’m surprised there has been only 1 or 2 comments on HRV ERV. There are many products available to help exchange indoor air with outdoor air while conserving heat and or humidity. here is a smaller solution that is somewhat expandable. LUNOS e². I was hoping i’d get some more ideas from this discussion.
Most houses (at least in the US) are so leaky that an ERV/HRV is just going to suck all the heat out, and cold air is going to come in through all the drafty places (and that doesn't necessarily mean fresh air, could be stale air from your crawl space).
Wouldn't recommend for any existing construction unless you know how air tight your house is (get a blower door test done).
Wouldn't recommend for any existing construction unless you know how air tight your house is (get a blower door test done).
Thanks for the tip, the LUNOS e² looks interesting.
The problem with small systems like the LUNOS e² is that they're incredibly overpriced. I wouldn't be surprised if its BoM is well under $50. It's basically some fans and plastic pieces.
That’s partly why i posted, i was hoping to learn of alternatives. Even at high prices, if the product works well and achieves the health gain...
As Saul Griffith explains at Rewiring America (https://www.rewiringamerica.org/), massively switching to all existing electric technology (cars, stoves, heat pumps, electric hot water heaters, rooftop and community solar panels, etc) and powering them by clean electricity will:
- decarbonize 80% of US energy by as soon as 2035
- create up to 25 million new jobs
- save the average household $1000-$2000 every year
- massively reduce pollution-related health effects
Any advice on what to do if you have a gas stove in a smaller house without proper ventilation?
Install a vent hood that exhausts outside. If you can't do that, install an extraction fan in the window or open a window and leave it open for 5 mins before and after you cook. With an extraction fan or vent you probably want to open a window as well when runnig. You could also run exhaust fans in the bathroom which would help.
Austin Air makes standing air purifiers that filter NO2 from gas stoves. Here is their write up about it.
https://austinair.com/is-your-gas-stove-making-your-child-si...
https://austinair.com/is-your-gas-stove-making-your-child-si...
Crack a window while you're cooking.
My rental has a gas stove and range, and the hood is unvented.
I've started running all the upstairs bathroom fans when cooking. That, running a HEPA filter in my bedroom, and always keeping that door shut, is the only way to keep the PM2.5 count in my bedroom at a reasonable level.
I picked up one of these a year ago, and highly recommend it: http://www.dylosproducts.com/dc1100paqmc.html
I tried to buy a Speck, but it looks like they're perpetually sold out: https://www.specksensor.com/
I've started running all the upstairs bathroom fans when cooking. That, running a HEPA filter in my bedroom, and always keeping that door shut, is the only way to keep the PM2.5 count in my bedroom at a reasonable level.
I picked up one of these a year ago, and highly recommend it: http://www.dylosproducts.com/dc1100paqmc.html
I tried to buy a Speck, but it looks like they're perpetually sold out: https://www.specksensor.com/
[deleted]
From what I'm reading here, does this mean the vent above the stove should be on all the time while cooking?
I will often turn on our vent, but it's certainly not something I'm doing every time I turn on the stove..
I will often turn on our vent, but it's certainly not something I'm doing every time I turn on the stove..
Personally, after reading this, I think I'm going to keep the vent on whenever we cook with gas. I was already aware that C02 goes up significantly when our gas burners are on (I have an Awair unit in the kitchen).
[deleted]
It does seem odd that the home heating natural gas appliances (water heater, furnace, etc.) have to pass Combustion Appliance Zone (CAZ) testing. It's basically a smoke test (sometimes literally) to ensure that the products of combustion are being safely vented out through the stacks in the house.
While this exists to some extent for gas stoves, it doesn't seem to be mandatory to ensure a gas stove/vent hood is compliant.
http://advancedhomeenergy.com/what-is-caz/
While this exists to some extent for gas stoves, it doesn't seem to be mandatory to ensure a gas stove/vent hood is compliant.
http://advancedhomeenergy.com/what-is-caz/
[deleted]
Stovetop doesn't make much difference. I notice it with ovens though. I favor using countertop electric ovens much more because of this.
I'm much more concerned with central heating. I wish more homes had electric and radiant floor heating.
I have to crack the window in the office and put an electric heater near the window to avoid feeling lethargic from all the oxygen being depleted and replaced with noxious gases.
I'm much more concerned with central heating. I wish more homes had electric and radiant floor heating.
I have to crack the window in the office and put an electric heater near the window to avoid feeling lethargic from all the oxygen being depleted and replaced with noxious gases.
On the subject of Air filtering, do we have solutions other then HEPA filter which has a running cost. Something that is one-off or may be paid once a year on a relatively cheaper price?
I also have windows opened most of the time just to let fresh air in. I also dont see any solution on the market that fix the fresh air problem.
I also have windows opened most of the time just to let fresh air in. I also dont see any solution on the market that fix the fresh air problem.
Venta airwashers are great for humidification but clean air as well. I'm not sure on the effectiveness compared to a traditional air filter, but there is no filter - you just wash the discs.
Thank You.
Put a 1-inch filter over a $20 box fan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH5APw_SLUU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH5APw_SLUU
How does a filter help with gases?
HEPA filters only help for particulates. For gases you need activated carbon (usually more than is used in commercial air purifiers) or something else.
> solutions other then HEPA filter
A basic indoor water fountain captures quite a lot of indoor pollution, to the point that it's likely far more energy and cost efficient than pumping air through a disposable filter. There's plenty of research on this.
A basic indoor water fountain captures quite a lot of indoor pollution, to the point that it's likely far more energy and cost efficient than pumping air through a disposable filter. There's plenty of research on this.
Could you share a source for this?
An air purifier with hepa filter will filter the entire air supply in a room within X hours, how is a small water fountain going to pull out particles from elsewhere in the room into the water?
Very curious how this would apply to cooking with propane. We're out it in the country so trenching in natural gas lines is prohibitive so the stove, furnace and dryer all run on propane which is considerably more refined than natural gas, which is its raw source.
During the fires I had to explain to my partner why the CO2 levels in the house spiked so high (I have an AwAir) while she was baking.
More and more I feel like most of us slept through science class. I don’t know what is happening, but it worries me.
More and more I feel like most of us slept through science class. I don’t know what is happening, but it worries me.
I'm curious how much of a danger furnaces and gas dryers pose as well. Article seemed light on detail there.
Would a CO monitor help in detecting these issues? Or would I need something more?
Would a CO monitor help in detecting these issues? Or would I need something more?
Furnaces should not exhaust ANY pollutants in your home. If they are, there's a crack or leak somewhere and they should be immediately shutoff and serviced. At no point the gas exhaust should mix with indoor air.
I don't know about gas dryers but it would be surprising if they were any different.
Don't all new gas furnaces and hot water heaters vent combustion gasses outside via a PVC pipe? Mine do.
As for stove, I.m planning to replace my old GE range with an induction range.
As for stove, I.m planning to replace my old GE range with an induction range.
Does anyone cook here? I love gas ranges and I'm getting sick of the war on gas. Cooking on electric sucks.
I agree. Also, there are certain things that simply cannot be cooked on non-gas because they require the food to be cooked directly on the flame. For example Indian rotis - https://youtu.be/ZckBv7JR__0?t=241 - need to go directly on the gas for a few seconds. Until there is a viable solution to that, I don't see Indians (and by extension, an Indian like me who were overjoyed to find a rental unit in the US that had a gas stove!) switching away from gas any time soon. FWIW, ventilation is generally excellent in tropical countries (above a certain standard of living) because the warm weather means large windows and exhaust fans/vents are very common. I'd like to see an experiment controlling for that.
Agreed. I run the vent and usually crack a window when cooking just so food smells don't permeate the house forever.
I also have a gas line on the patio so my grill never runs out of fuel.
I also have a gas line on the patio so my grill never runs out of fuel.
I have a traditional electric stove and, yes, it is not good compared to gas. But I've heard claims that induction is better than both. Have you tried that?
We primarily cook on induction and (for us) it solves all of the issues with traditional electric and all the issues we have with gas. It can really be the best of most worlds (efficient, fast, precise, easy to clean). I do understand that there are a few edge cases that induction doesn't handle (legacy or specialty cookware, recipes that need a literal open flame).
That's nice to hear. At some point I will likely upgrade. My cooktop and oven are on different circuits and my cooktop is currently on a 10 Amp circuit. Every induction cooktop I've seen so far demands either a 15 or 20 Amp circuit, so the upgrade isn't going to be as simple as I'd wish.
Yes, chefs I know use this. But I prefer gas because I cook on cast iron.
Cast iron works perfect on induction. Just don't use the boost mode.
So here's a good example of conflicting requirements.
I'd like to not die of air pollution, so gas stoves are problematic.
I'd also like to be able to get consistent and even heat out of my cooking heat source, so electric stoves are problematic.
It'd be nice if someone could just make something I can cook on that is reliable, even, and not going to kill me or give me cancer.
I'd like to not die of air pollution, so gas stoves are problematic.
I'd also like to be able to get consistent and even heat out of my cooking heat source, so electric stoves are problematic.
It'd be nice if someone could just make something I can cook on that is reliable, even, and not going to kill me or give me cancer.
The solution already exists: induction. It heats the cooking appliance directly, and can provide varying power/heat settings without having to duty cycle (like an electric cooktop does).
Use induction cook top? I find it to be much better than gas or regular electric heating stove.
It is a good example of 2 requirements (not die of air pollution vs stable temperature of your oven) that you present as equal but one should have a 100 times more weight which would make the issue none problematic.
That's assuming you're actually going to die of air pollution if you use a gas stove. I don't consider the issue especially problematic; I like cooking with gas and will continue to do so.
I would disagree. I won't downplay the very real risk of air pollution, but unstable oven temperature can make it difficult to cook meat to a safe temperature, greatly increasing risk of foodborne illness.
The requirements are not necessarily equal, but you can't disregard safe temperature guidelines unless you never make food with raw meat or eggs.
The requirements are not necessarily equal, but you can't disregard safe temperature guidelines unless you never make food with raw meat or eggs.
You might want to look at the more upmarket electric offerings. I've got an electric Samsung range that heats fully evenly, to the point it's mildly annoying (no cold spots in the pan for the thinner parts of food). The dials correspond to element temperatures under positive control. There's also an induction zone that boils water in three minutes.
It's definitely more expensive than an equal-performing gas range would be, both in initial cost and continuing operation, but it's also easier to clean and allows me to not have natural gas at all.
It's definitely more expensive than an equal-performing gas range would be, both in initial cost and continuing operation, but it's also easier to clean and allows me to not have natural gas at all.
Induction would seem to be the perfect answer (since you haven't put "cost" or "practicality" as one of the functional requirements :).
Induction cooking? Electric with even heat. Might be problematic for cast irons if they heat up too quickly.
Gas cooking stoves perform better than most electric. Unfortunate fact.
Induction works better than gas, we switched about 5 years ago, my wife as die hard gas and she won't go back.
Right now we're just starting to see induction units that will manage to temperature instead of on a scale of 1-10.
Breville in combination with Polyscience, came out with a unit, The Control Freak Temperature Controlled Commercial Induction Cooking System, that not only can manage through the glass temperature but also has a temperature probe to really manage temperature, down to the 1/10 of a degree. It allows for cooking to be done in ways that can't be done previously.
Commercial kitchens are starting to switch over to induction units because it's much easier to keep kitchens clean, and it also significantly lowers the temperatures in kitchens.
Right now we're just starting to see induction units that will manage to temperature instead of on a scale of 1-10.
Breville in combination with Polyscience, came out with a unit, The Control Freak Temperature Controlled Commercial Induction Cooking System, that not only can manage through the glass temperature but also has a temperature probe to really manage temperature, down to the 1/10 of a degree. It allows for cooking to be done in ways that can't be done previously.
Commercial kitchens are starting to switch over to induction units because it's much easier to keep kitchens clean, and it also significantly lowers the temperatures in kitchens.
Funny it doesn’t say if the hood fan was turned on when measuring NO2
Does anyone know if the same issues occur from gas fireplaces?
What about a gas fireplace?
Radon gas is another major threat if you live in a suburban environment.
This website caused a massive spike in CPU usage on my instance of Firefox. Not sure what's going on but I wouldn't trust this site at all.
gas stove are just the next target of the global warming alarmists. See san francisco's recent ban on them.
This is just a propaganda piece in order to manufacture the public perception that we should give up the absolute miracle that is the ability to have a safe cooking fire, with adjustable and controllabe heat levels, with the turn of a dial.
climate change cultilsts literally want to throw away the pinacle of 1000s of years of cooking technology and replace it with inferior products.
This is just a propaganda piece in order to manufacture the public perception that we should give up the absolute miracle that is the ability to have a safe cooking fire, with adjustable and controllabe heat levels, with the turn of a dial.
climate change cultilsts literally want to throw away the pinacle of 1000s of years of cooking technology and replace it with inferior products.
I think we are being sold a farce. Gas stoves and gas cooking have been fine for decades, what has not been fine, is the energy companies maintenance of their gas lines. Rather than force those companies to take better care of their gas line so we don’t have any more house explosions, policymakers are taking the convenient argument that natural gas is bad, and so we should ban the use of natural gas at homes, that way we won’t have any more explosions. See? Problem solved
Given they are tieing it to Covid-19, which would be impossible to know yet they clearly are just on a mission against gas.
That's their thing, that's how they make money. I guess believe them if you want. These things are the new religions.
Air quality everywhere matters. Cooking with gas at home is pumping in a airborne substance. There's a good chance it might matter personally. But gas is changing the would environmentally and ethically for the better. We need to be sure from a neutral scientific source, if they still exist.
That's their thing, that's how they make money. I guess believe them if you want. These things are the new religions.
Air quality everywhere matters. Cooking with gas at home is pumping in a airborne substance. There's a good chance it might matter personally. But gas is changing the would environmentally and ethically for the better. We need to be sure from a neutral scientific source, if they still exist.
This seems like a bit of a stretch. Properly functioning gas stoves are very clean burning. If they were focused on improperly burning stoves, I'd agree.
And why stop at gas stoves? Plenty of homes have gas water heaters and gas furnaces, even in the absence of gas stoves. Yes, if properly vented it's a non-issue, but if they aren't?
And what catches my eye are statements like...
"gas stoves have much higher concentrations of NO2 than those using electric stoves—levels that would violate legal limits if measured outdoors"
Ok, what is "much higher"? And violate "legal limits"? What legal limits? Occupational exposure? Car exhaust emissions? Not being specific makes me think they are just playing with words.
And why stop at gas stoves? Plenty of homes have gas water heaters and gas furnaces, even in the absence of gas stoves. Yes, if properly vented it's a non-issue, but if they aren't?
And what catches my eye are statements like...
"gas stoves have much higher concentrations of NO2 than those using electric stoves—levels that would violate legal limits if measured outdoors"
Ok, what is "much higher"? And violate "legal limits"? What legal limits? Occupational exposure? Car exhaust emissions? Not being specific makes me think they are just playing with words.
I think unlike stoves, gas water heaters and gas furnaces are legally required to be properly vented?
> very clean burning
I think the issue is sometimes not the methane itself (though I suppose nitrogen in the air + methane could explain some of these things), but bits of food and other things that also burn.
> very clean burning
I think the issue is sometimes not the methane itself (though I suppose nitrogen in the air + methane could explain some of these things), but bits of food and other things that also burn.
There are unvented gas heaters. Example:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Dyna-Glo-30000-BTU-Wall-Or-Floor-Mo...
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Dyna-Glo-30000-BTU-Wall-Or-Floor-Mo...
Ew, but at least those are a lot smaller. Thanks for the link.
It seems like this is an area where IoT should really deliver the goods. I should be able to cheaply add networked sensors, fans, filters, and vents to my home to automatically monitor air quality and temperature, then take appropriate action. Sadly, we're basically stuck with smart thermostats that spy on you and deliver little benefit over a local solution.
I had a lot of hope for IoT air conditioning vents, but those products never seemed to materialize. Indoor air quality monitors are expensive and inaccurate. Nobody is offering me a real-time fluid dynamics model of the heat and pollutant situation in my home, let alone responding to it appropriately.
Amazing how hard it is to create reliable, computable models of the world...