OpenBSD on the Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Nano(jcs.org)
jcs.org
OpenBSD on the Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Nano
https://jcs.org/2021/01/27/x1nano
166 comments
It's a trade-off. SMD-soldering takes up way less space, which is important in an ultra-portable. Even if it was upgradeable, it's not clear to me that the CPU/motherboard even supports more than 16GB per memory slot. Adding an additional memory slot would greatly expand the physical requirements.
Even in my many years of having desktop PC's, I think I've only once upgraded RAM separately and never upgraded the CPU without replacing the motherboard.
If you're talking repairability, than I just haven't had to replace my RAM sticks due to wear.
Even in my many years of having desktop PC's, I think I've only once upgraded RAM separately and never upgraded the CPU without replacing the motherboard.
If you're talking repairability, than I just haven't had to replace my RAM sticks due to wear.
> it's not clear to me that the CPU/motherboard even supports more than 16GB per memory slot
These new products are crap, to be honest.
Sandy Bridge era ThinkPads accepted 16GB. How long ago was that? Is it 10 years already? Granted, it was total, not per slot. Wasn't officially supported, but it worked. Tried personally, memtest passed, all good. IIRC W520 even took 32GB(4x8GB). Ten years of progress and ... still no progress. Who even buys this crap?
>If you're talking repairability, than I just haven't had to replace my RAM sticks due to wear.
Somewhat agree with you on this point. Safe to say that if RAM works now, it will keep working. Test it after buying and you should be good. You can't scavenge soldered RAM when the device fails though.
These new products are crap, to be honest.
Sandy Bridge era ThinkPads accepted 16GB. How long ago was that? Is it 10 years already? Granted, it was total, not per slot. Wasn't officially supported, but it worked. Tried personally, memtest passed, all good. IIRC W520 even took 32GB(4x8GB). Ten years of progress and ... still no progress. Who even buys this crap?
>If you're talking repairability, than I just haven't had to replace my RAM sticks due to wear.
Somewhat agree with you on this point. Safe to say that if RAM works now, it will keep working. Test it after buying and you should be good. You can't scavenge soldered RAM when the device fails though.
Do you really need that amount of RAM when SSD and NVMe storage is so fast and high-bandwidth nowadays? Just add some swap space and be done with it. Wear and tear on the underlying Flash media is not the problem it once was, given how big SSD's are these days - and you can use SMART statistics to keep track of any emerging issue from that POV.
I need it when working with huge source trees. Windows sucks at that and extra memory that allows for more caching helps. Mac sucks less in that respect. Still git status on Intel MacBook Pro 2020 takes 2-3 seconds while on Thinkpad X280 from 2017 with Linux it took less than a second.
Maybe it's just that many people find 16GB is enough for their use cases :) (I actually cannot think of any use cases for an ultra-portable when you would actually need more than that)
Ultra portable is a definition of form, not function. I want to run the same Qubes on my laptop as I run on my desktop.
This applies to normies too. I mean, it's nice to have (web/g/hot)mail, slack, skype, messenger, element, discord open in the background while surfing the web and I doubt that 16GB will be enough for long.
What if I want to run photoshop and illustrator at the same time? Heaven forbid, they rewrite those power tools to run on electron.
This applies to normies too. I mean, it's nice to have (web/g/hot)mail, slack, skype, messenger, element, discord open in the background while surfing the web and I doubt that 16GB will be enough for long.
What if I want to run photoshop and illustrator at the same time? Heaven forbid, they rewrite those power tools to run on electron.
I can run all of those workloads in 16gb of ram without issue without a swap partition or pagefile enabled on my windows partition, the only thing that might struggle is multiple vms, but that isn’t a typical workload, which is why more than 16gb is so rarely seen.
Normies use their phones for that.
Ultra-portable is a feature, not an end goal. Netbooks’ end goal were to be portable and they failed miserably. Most people work on thinkpads, I don’t know about you, but I actually cannot think of a time where my browser, IDE plus a few cached programs don’t exceed 16GB.
There exist other, larger ThinkPads that accommodate user upgradable RAM slots for those that need it. No product can be all things for all people. For example you can get the P1 with 64GB of memory.
As someone who splits his work between a 64GB workstation and a 16GB ultraportable, there are a ton of use cases where 16GB is a perfectly acceptable amount of memory. That said, 32GB of soldered memory is feasible in a ultra-portable these days so it would be nice for Lenovo to get with the times.
As someone who splits his work between a 64GB workstation and a 16GB ultraportable, there are a ton of use cases where 16GB is a perfectly acceptable amount of memory. That said, 32GB of soldered memory is feasible in a ultra-portable these days so it would be nice for Lenovo to get with the times.
Netbooks' endgoal was to be ubercheap, the portability was an afterthought. Even aside from this ThinkPad model, there are plenty of high-end ultrabooks on the market that are not much less portable than the old netbooks.
True about RAM's failure rates being really, really low. But when it fails in such devices, the very expensive option available to you for repair is replacing the whole motherboard! And no easy upgradability means if Windows or Ubuntu tomorrow increases its minimum requirement for RAM to more than 8 GB, you are stuck with sub-par performing device.
I still have a Thinkpad X220 with such a CPU, all maxed out lying around. FullHD upgrade kit is waiting to be installed :-D
I hardly need more than 8GB for typical developer workloads, and the only thing capable of filling up the 1GB on the GPU are games and 3D visualizations, why bother with more on a laptop?
Only for doing Docker/Kubernetes at the coffee shop, from my point of view.
Only for doing Docker/Kubernetes at the coffee shop, from my point of view.
I work on a desktop application. Developing on a laptop is often a requirement especially when dealing with touchpad/touchscreen input and animations. Realistically one cannot do that over a remote desktop. It just adds too much latency. Plus most remote display clients suck at forwarding complex touch gestures. And when the sources include a copy of Chromium, one better get 32GB. For example memory usage during linking may hit at least 12GB.
Similarly developing mobile apps is more convenient on a laptop as one can interact with an emulator with proper touch input. But then ide and emulators take memory.
On the other hand developing a web-related code on a laptop locally can be even harmful, as opposite to using ssh or remote extension in vscode. Things are too fast locally and one may become aware of performance problems only after fixing those requires a big refactoring.
Similarly developing mobile apps is more convenient on a laptop as one can interact with an emulator with proper touch input. But then ide and emulators take memory.
On the other hand developing a web-related code on a laptop locally can be even harmful, as opposite to using ssh or remote extension in vscode. Things are too fast locally and one may become aware of performance problems only after fixing those requires a big refactoring.
To add to "it's a trade-off": LPDDR4X is not replaceable and allows only 16GB max instead of 32GB for DDR4. However, LPDDR4X also requires half the voltage (0.6V vs. 1.2V) and can offer up to 4267 MT/s of transfer speed instead of DDR4's max of 3200 MT/s.
So yeah, not being able to repair/upgrade the RAM sucks balls. But if you can live without it, soldered LPDDR4X sucks less battery power and lets especially the integrated GPU do its best work. For the kind of device they're selling, it sort of seems like the right choice.
So yeah, not being able to repair/upgrade the RAM sucks balls. But if you can live without it, soldered LPDDR4X sucks less battery power and lets especially the integrated GPU do its best work. For the kind of device they're selling, it sort of seems like the right choice.
Do we need to develop a new format and connector for RAM? Where we can get it as low to the motherboard and the sticks of RAM as thin and small as possible?
Yes, unless we force them to explore and research new options of upgradable RAM (or other parts) for such form factors (thin or small laptops / tablets), they will never do so. (Perhaps something like SD card reader slots for RAM?).
> It's a trade-off. SMD-soldering takes up way less space, which is important in an ultra-portable.
It does make sense for some forms, but look at all the offerings of Lenovo, especially for home users - even the bigger laptops all feature soldered RAM (or even the weirder combination of soldered RAM + 1 DIMM slot at a more expensive price!).
(Then there's the other factor - unless we force them to explore upgradability in such form factors, they will continue to avoid doing so because the current option is more profitable for them).
From a consumer point of view, soldering RAM / SSD / CPU etc. to prevent easy upgrades and make it very difficult to repair takes away control from consumers on how they want to use their device. It leaves you vulnerable to price gauging and pigeon-holes your device to specific limited use-cases only (for e.g. a new recent trend now with home users is to create a "RAM disk" for heavy torrenting, to reduce the wear and tear on the SSD or HDD - obviously with limited non-upgradeable memory that 4 or 8 GB RAM will no longer be seem sufficient and even though your machine is more than capable, your options are now limited to an expensive upgrade by changing the whole motherboard with a bigger capacity of soldered RAM or buy a newer device with more RAM, hopefully upgradeable this time). Apple is a great example of the price gauging that happens to consumers when you have to depend on them for more RAM or SSD "upgrades option" when you are buying a new system.
Most of the common disparage against my post here is that 4 / 8 GB is more than enough (yeah, just like 640k was during its time /s). Perhaps most have forgotten that one of Microsoft's business model is to sell their OS bundled with the machines (OEM license). Thus, Microsoft obviously has a selfish interest to ensure the OEM's well being (which is obviously in selling more devices for more profit). And so they help them by making their OS more and more resource intensive, thus forcing its users to consider upgrading their hardware (which with soldered parts now means buying a new device). Ofcourse, hardware has outpaced software in the last decade, and with Microsoft also considering a change in its business model (renting softwares), we haven't noticed this trend in the last decade. But that's another threat we consumers have to live with.
It does make sense for some forms, but look at all the offerings of Lenovo, especially for home users - even the bigger laptops all feature soldered RAM (or even the weirder combination of soldered RAM + 1 DIMM slot at a more expensive price!).
(Then there's the other factor - unless we force them to explore upgradability in such form factors, they will continue to avoid doing so because the current option is more profitable for them).
From a consumer point of view, soldering RAM / SSD / CPU etc. to prevent easy upgrades and make it very difficult to repair takes away control from consumers on how they want to use their device. It leaves you vulnerable to price gauging and pigeon-holes your device to specific limited use-cases only (for e.g. a new recent trend now with home users is to create a "RAM disk" for heavy torrenting, to reduce the wear and tear on the SSD or HDD - obviously with limited non-upgradeable memory that 4 or 8 GB RAM will no longer be seem sufficient and even though your machine is more than capable, your options are now limited to an expensive upgrade by changing the whole motherboard with a bigger capacity of soldered RAM or buy a newer device with more RAM, hopefully upgradeable this time). Apple is a great example of the price gauging that happens to consumers when you have to depend on them for more RAM or SSD "upgrades option" when you are buying a new system.
Most of the common disparage against my post here is that 4 / 8 GB is more than enough (yeah, just like 640k was during its time /s). Perhaps most have forgotten that one of Microsoft's business model is to sell their OS bundled with the machines (OEM license). Thus, Microsoft obviously has a selfish interest to ensure the OEM's well being (which is obviously in selling more devices for more profit). And so they help them by making their OS more and more resource intensive, thus forcing its users to consider upgrading their hardware (which with soldered parts now means buying a new device). Ofcourse, hardware has outpaced software in the last decade, and with Microsoft also considering a change in its business model (renting softwares), we haven't noticed this trend in the last decade. But that's another threat we consumers have to live with.
I am surprised we don't see corporate back-pressure at least on soldered storage.
I used to have a client who got into a legal tussle, and at one point they called in various key staff to impound their disc drives to archive possible evidence. How do you do that if the SSD is permanently soldered in place, and can't even be readily attached to another machine for cloning or analysis?
I'd also imagine difficulties with end-of-life disposal; you can't just shred the discs and sell the rest for refurbishing or donate them for PR/tax write offs anymore.
I used to have a client who got into a legal tussle, and at one point they called in various key staff to impound their disc drives to archive possible evidence. How do you do that if the SSD is permanently soldered in place, and can't even be readily attached to another machine for cloning or analysis?
I'd also imagine difficulties with end-of-life disposal; you can't just shred the discs and sell the rest for refurbishing or donate them for PR/tax write offs anymore.
It's also a quality control issue. You can say goodbye to reliable suspend/resume once people start adding cheap RAM sticks to their laptops. The additional parasitic capacitance doesn't help with power consumption either.
On the other hand, manufacturers only provide support if you buy / replace parts through them. If you buy from elsewhere, they often refuse to even troubleshoot your device. So that argument doesn't really hold much weight.
And just because you have replaceable parts, and the option to buy from elsewhere, doesn't mean the principle of caveat emptor ("let the buyer beware") goes away.
Ultimately it's all about balancing the profits of the company vs the rights of the consumers. While both will have to compromise, removing options from the consumer and allowing the company to dictate terms outright really harms our consumer rights.
And just because you have replaceable parts, and the option to buy from elsewhere, doesn't mean the principle of caveat emptor ("let the buyer beware") goes away.
Ultimately it's all about balancing the profits of the company vs the rights of the consumers. While both will have to compromise, removing options from the consumer and allowing the company to dictate terms outright really harms our consumer rights.
>If you buy from elsewhere, they often refuse to even troubleshoot your device. So that argument doesn't really hold much weight.
Even so, laptop manufacturers have brand reputations to protect and don't want customers blaming them for issues that are outside of their control. It's not just a question of who's legally responsible or whether they're obliged to provide support.
There's also the electrical engineering perspective on this. In a low power device, sending high frequency signals over contact-based electrical connections is something you want to avoid if at all possible.
>While both will have to compromise, removing options from the consumer and allowing the company to dictate terms outright really harms our consumer rights.
For the vast majority of consumers there is no compromise. Soldering the RAM is just better, period. (The vast majority of consumers never upgrade their RAM, and RAM sticks coming loose is a surprisingly common failure mode.)
Even so, laptop manufacturers have brand reputations to protect and don't want customers blaming them for issues that are outside of their control. It's not just a question of who's legally responsible or whether they're obliged to provide support.
There's also the electrical engineering perspective on this. In a low power device, sending high frequency signals over contact-based electrical connections is something you want to avoid if at all possible.
>While both will have to compromise, removing options from the consumer and allowing the company to dictate terms outright really harms our consumer rights.
For the vast majority of consumers there is no compromise. Soldering the RAM is just better, period. (The vast majority of consumers never upgrade their RAM, and RAM sticks coming loose is a surprisingly common failure mode.)
Shame that you're getting downvoted on HN for such views - most consumers don't care about devices designed to be long-lasting and if the technical population doesn't too then it's totally a lost cause.
I've recently purchased a used T530, which was the last model to feature a removable battery, removable CPU, unsoldered RAM, etc etc(for the pedants - yes, later models still had some of these features, but none of them had all of them). It's a fantastic machine that runs everyday tasks without a hitch and with having the option to easily repair it I hope it will last at least another 10 years. The only disadvantage I have compared to the newer T490 model that I use is that it's about 1kg heavier.
I think it's reasonable that some consumers would prefer a lighter and thinner machine, even if that includes sacrificing modularity/repairibility, but I doubt those make up the majority and most are just apathetic and willing to go the way of disposable consumerism that corporations are pushing to drive profits further.
I've recently purchased a used T530, which was the last model to feature a removable battery, removable CPU, unsoldered RAM, etc etc(for the pedants - yes, later models still had some of these features, but none of them had all of them). It's a fantastic machine that runs everyday tasks without a hitch and with having the option to easily repair it I hope it will last at least another 10 years. The only disadvantage I have compared to the newer T490 model that I use is that it's about 1kg heavier.
I think it's reasonable that some consumers would prefer a lighter and thinner machine, even if that includes sacrificing modularity/repairibility, but I doubt those make up the majority and most are just apathetic and willing to go the way of disposable consumerism that corporations are pushing to drive profits further.
I think you and GP are conflating "repairability" with "upgradability".
The only two components in a laptop that are essentially guaranteed to fail in a short-ish timeframe are flash storage and the batteries. As long as these two are replaceable, I think a device is reasonably "repairable".
While there's a definite chance of the CPU and memory etc. failing, I think for most people the trade-off in size and weight to accommodate sockets aren't worth it from a repairability perspective.
That's where I draw my line, anyway. Flash storage and batteries are essentially guaranteed to fail in 5-10 years of use, and absolutely need to be replaceable. As long as the build quality is decent, the rest can be integrated.
The only two components in a laptop that are essentially guaranteed to fail in a short-ish timeframe are flash storage and the batteries. As long as these two are replaceable, I think a device is reasonably "repairable".
While there's a definite chance of the CPU and memory etc. failing, I think for most people the trade-off in size and weight to accommodate sockets aren't worth it from a repairability perspective.
That's where I draw my line, anyway. Flash storage and batteries are essentially guaranteed to fail in 5-10 years of use, and absolutely need to be replaceable. As long as the build quality is decent, the rest can be integrated.
Whilst I think your argument is valid, I still think lack of "upgradability" correlates with planned obsolescence. All the manufacturer would then need to do is to add a few components that have an expected lifetime just after the warranty time.
On the whole, I agree with you that at the very least the battery and RAM should be easily replaceable. I just happen to also think that the increase in weight/bulk is worthwhile tradeoff for the option for me to decide when I want to stop using the machine, not the manufacturer.
On the whole, I agree with you that at the very least the battery and RAM should be easily replaceable. I just happen to also think that the increase in weight/bulk is worthwhile tradeoff for the option for me to decide when I want to stop using the machine, not the manufacturer.
PC was the exception to the norm on the 8 and 16 bit home computers, Apple as survivor of this vertical integration philosophy has showed OEMs where the profit comes from.
So naturally OEMs are making laptops as extensible as Atari, Mac, Acorn and Amigas used to be.
Want to extend it? Plug an external device, for everything else buy a newer model.
This seems to be the future as classical desktops fade away replaced by cloud instances and NUCs.
So naturally OEMs are making laptops as extensible as Atari, Mac, Acorn and Amigas used to be.
Want to extend it? Plug an external device, for everything else buy a newer model.
This seems to be the future as classical desktops fade away replaced by cloud instances and NUCs.
My impression is that even on a desktop computer which is highly modulable, after 5/10 years you have to throw away everything but the case and maybe the power supply. New CPUs won't have the right socket for your mothercard, the RAM will need to be DDR(n+1), same for the PCIe port.
The last few years of AMD desktop CPUs would like a word.
Yeah, I have an AMD FX-8150 (AM3+) based desktop tower from 2012, which I recently wanted to upgrade, and which largely inspired my comment :)
Even with AM4 based CPU, I'm under the impression that recent CPUs cannot always use old mothercards.
Even with AM4 based CPU, I'm under the impression that recent CPUs cannot always use old mothercards.
GP said after "5/10" years. AM4 was only launched in 2016, and is already "showing cracks" in support, where old motherboards will, in practice, not support new CPUs without juggling firmware.
Obviously I can't predict the future, but I feel like AMD will release a new socket within a generation or two, which fits within the "5/10 year" mark.
Obviously I can't predict the future, but I feel like AMD will release a new socket within a generation or two, which fits within the "5/10 year" mark.
Sure, but 5-10 years is a long stretch, considering we are talking about a notebook that you can't upgrade once it is built. Surely there's a middle ground where upgrades should be possible within a couple of years?
Also, 16GB sounds awfully low to me. Why has the laptop industry decided nobody needs more than that? It seems to be the limit for laptops with soldered memory, with few laptops coming with more than that. Anyway I voted with my wallet and bought a laptop that has a Ryzen CPU and upgradable memory and SSD, and a very manageable weight.
Also, 16GB sounds awfully low to me. Why has the laptop industry decided nobody needs more than that? It seems to be the limit for laptops with soldered memory, with few laptops coming with more than that. Anyway I voted with my wallet and bought a laptop that has a Ryzen CPU and upgradable memory and SSD, and a very manageable weight.
> I think you and GP are conflating "repairability" with "upgradability".
Why do you think one has to be exclusive to the other? Easier upgradability means easier to repair.
And the rare failure of the soldered RAM makes what should have been an affordable repair a very expensive affair as they force you to buy a new motherboard!
Note that another major issue with soldered RAM / SSD / CPU / unremovable batteries is that it makes you, the consumer, more vulnerable to price gauging. For e.g. If you don't want a 4GB or 8GB RAM, you are still forced to buy the 16 GB RAM from the laptop maker and have to pay them what they want, even if it is available for far cheaper from other reputable vendors.
Why do you think one has to be exclusive to the other? Easier upgradability means easier to repair.
And the rare failure of the soldered RAM makes what should have been an affordable repair a very expensive affair as they force you to buy a new motherboard!
Note that another major issue with soldered RAM / SSD / CPU / unremovable batteries is that it makes you, the consumer, more vulnerable to price gauging. For e.g. If you don't want a 4GB or 8GB RAM, you are still forced to buy the 16 GB RAM from the laptop maker and have to pay them what they want, even if it is available for far cheaper from other reputable vendors.
Lenovo's development really is sad - each generation has become less serviceable and maintainable, and increasingly static/locked in.
Even if you follow along models with a similar physical footprint as each series has incrementally shrunk over generations (say, compare the 2020 T14 to the t440s).
I've had enough Thinkpads that I lost counter over the years but my next laptop will be of another brand.
Hopefully I won't need a new one until one of the more open alternatives come with a decent 13-14.5" model with 2k display.
Even if you follow along models with a similar physical footprint as each series has incrementally shrunk over generations (say, compare the 2020 T14 to the t440s).
I've had enough Thinkpads that I lost counter over the years but my next laptop will be of another brand.
Hopefully I won't need a new one until one of the more open alternatives come with a decent 13-14.5" model with 2k display.
I agree with you, but I'm locked into ThinkPads due to the trackpoint.
To me, using a trackpad or having to carry a mouse around when trackpoints exist would be a massive downgrade in comfort and usability, comparable to e.g. not having a battery.
Thus, as trackpoint uptake from other brands is almost nonexistent, I'll swallow whatever crappy decision Lenovo comes up with in new laptops. They would have to do something exaggeratedly egregious (no battery? no USB ports? That kind of thing) for me to even consider the competition.
It's sad, but as bad as it is that Lenovo makes these changes, to me it's even worse that other brands don't even bother to offer a TrackPoint in at least some of their lineup, considering that it takes negligible space and the inconvenience for people who don't use it is near zero.
To me, using a trackpad or having to carry a mouse around when trackpoints exist would be a massive downgrade in comfort and usability, comparable to e.g. not having a battery.
Thus, as trackpoint uptake from other brands is almost nonexistent, I'll swallow whatever crappy decision Lenovo comes up with in new laptops. They would have to do something exaggeratedly egregious (no battery? no USB ports? That kind of thing) for me to even consider the competition.
It's sad, but as bad as it is that Lenovo makes these changes, to me it's even worse that other brands don't even bother to offer a TrackPoint in at least some of their lineup, considering that it takes negligible space and the inconvenience for people who don't use it is near zero.
Work have just given me a new HP Elitebook with a trackpoint, so they're not completely unknown on other makes. Not saying that machine's any good, mind - I haven't had a chance to play with it yet.
The trend is not going in the right direction despite the expired patents: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Dell-kills-off-its-TrackPoint-...
Add to that the braindead half-size arrow key design of most models (often paired with a loss of Home/End/PgUp/PgDown keys, thanks a ton Apple) and already there's a comfortable gap between ThinkPads and most other laptops. HP seems to be an exception here, and you'll have to go larger than the 12"/13" range to even find any options there.
Add to that the braindead half-size arrow key design of most models (often paired with a loss of Home/End/PgUp/PgDown keys, thanks a ton Apple) and already there's a comfortable gap between ThinkPads and most other laptops. HP seems to be an exception here, and you'll have to go larger than the 12"/13" range to even find any options there.
They used to be patented, not sure what the situation is currently.
AFAIK it's expired, see: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6115030A/en?oq=6115030
I see, thanks.
IDK if you're married to using your laptop keyboard - Leno has USB/BT keyboards with identical trackpoint.
At home that's a good solution, but when on the go, lugging a keyboard around does seem like too much discomfort too.
Right. These days I can't sit at just the laptop for an extended period without severe back pain anyway, so I just lost the habit of using it betwene that and adopting a more keyboard-centric workflow.
I have been keeping an eye out for options of operating the pinter device from a mech without having to ove from the home row.
There are rotary encoders, sensors you can put on the keyboard itself if you make it small and mobile enough, I think I saw something trackpoint-like at some point as well, but nothing fundamental so far.
I have been keeping an eye out for options of operating the pinter device from a mech without having to ove from the home row.
There are rotary encoders, sensors you can put on the keyboard itself if you make it small and mobile enough, I think I saw something trackpoint-like at some point as well, but nothing fundamental so far.
I'd say they are actually meandering. For example, the T460s is straight-forward to open, while the T450s had many painful plastic clips to undo. But yes, all in all the trend is pointing downwards.
Please, all laptops have a limit on how much RAM you can put into them, even if they physically can handle more. My old thinkpad maxes out at 8gb, even though I could change the stick to a 16 or 32gb.
I don't want to repair my device. I don't want to upgrade my RAM, I want websites, OS and apps not to bloat. There is no reason that Facebook and Twitter don't load instantly and are extremely snappy other than that they can.
If you want upgradeable machines, buy a desktop. You gave up most of the upgradeabliity when you brought a laptop.
I don't want to repair my device. I don't want to upgrade my RAM, I want websites, OS and apps not to bloat. There is no reason that Facebook and Twitter don't load instantly and are extremely snappy other than that they can.
If you want upgradeable machines, buy a desktop. You gave up most of the upgradeabliity when you brought a laptop.
> My old thinkpad maxes out at 8gb, even though I could change the stick to a 16 or 32gb.
I don't know what model of ThinkPad you have, but on most of them for at least the last 10 years, if the RAM is the right type it will work.
ThinkPads traditionally have had PSREF and datasheets that specify the max RAM based on the modules available when they were released. But generally they will also work with larger memory modules of the same type. They just don't list them because they weren't available for testing at the time.
Which ThinkPad model do you have? Perhaps it is one that I or someone else may be familiar with.
I don't know what model of ThinkPad you have, but on most of them for at least the last 10 years, if the RAM is the right type it will work.
ThinkPads traditionally have had PSREF and datasheets that specify the max RAM based on the modules available when they were released. But generally they will also work with larger memory modules of the same type. They just don't list them because they weren't available for testing at the time.
Which ThinkPad model do you have? Perhaps it is one that I or someone else may be familiar with.
I was thinking of my X240.
Ah yes, that has a single RAM slot. Crucial only shows an 8GB module for it:
https://www.crucial.com/compatible-upgrade-for/lenovo/thinkp...
So I don't know, that may well be the limit. OTOH, if there a larger compatible module from another manufacturer, it wouldn't surprise me if it just worked. Lenovo generally doesn't put arbitrary restrictions on RAM size.
https://www.crucial.com/compatible-upgrade-for/lenovo/thinkp...
So I don't know, that may well be the limit. OTOH, if there a larger compatible module from another manufacturer, it wouldn't surprise me if it just worked. Lenovo generally doesn't put arbitrary restrictions on RAM size.
Processors have RAM limit as well, independent of vendor.
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/75992/i...
Look at "Memory specification" part.
Look at "Memory specification" part.
Can you call it a limitation of the processor? I thought it was with the accompanying chipset - https://www.easytechjunkie.com/what-is-the-difference-betwee... .
Sure, the only real limitation inside the processor is the number of addressing bits if I remember correctly. However, in case of laptops I think it doesn't matter since they're kind of sold as a platform. The main point was - it might not be possible to extend RAM.
Thanks for the link. Indeed, that page lists a 16GB limit, so if that is the processor in OP's machine there may be hope. I do have 16GB (8GBx2) in my older X220 Tablet.
For the X250, I can confirm that it handles the 16GB. Investigated it once, haven't bothered actually upgrading, though.
I have 32GB in my T420s, works great.
Yep, I should have mentioned, running 32GB in my W520 too.
Previously, it used to be the case that if you don’t want to repair your device or upgrade your RAM you wouldn’t have used Thinkpads, as a MacBook is better at showing you websites.
Now, unfortunately, not so much.
I think lenovo could easily solve this by selling products like the Nano AND selling modern much thicker, heavier fully repairable devices like the T430/T530. Let the customer decide what they prefer.
I know that OpenBSD is "opinionated" but I can't really accept that their opinion on bluetooth is "we don't support bluetooth", which otherwise seems essential, at least to me, for any mobile device.
It's not really philosophical, they just weren't happy with the Bluetooth stack they had (originally from netbsd I think) and no-one has written a new one yet.
https://github.com/openbsd/src/commit/b8042ed98e3e7a691133b4...
https://github.com/openbsd/src/commit/b8042ed98e3e7a691133b4...
It was removed in 2014! At this point, "not yet" surely must mean "we don't want it".
Do-ocracy. Just because none of those devs want it enough to implement it, doesn't mean they'd turn away somebody who did. If somebody wants it bad enough, they'll do it.
> Do-ocracy.
I love this word.
I'm apparently behind the times, though: It's on Urban Dictionary and I love their example
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=do-ocracy
> “Jeez, why does Mary get to decide what everyone eats and when they work? Who put her in charge?” Older and wiser heads will say, “This is a do-ocracy. If you think you can do Mary’s job, and you want to, then get up there and do it. She’ll probably be relieved. If not, don’t be a jerk and make a big stink about it, or else she’ll stop working so hard and we won’t have anything to eat!”
... which is apparently taken from:
https://communitywiki.org/wiki/DoOcracy
... which is another wiki I'll have to dive into.
I love this word.
I'm apparently behind the times, though: It's on Urban Dictionary and I love their example
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=do-ocracy
> “Jeez, why does Mary get to decide what everyone eats and when they work? Who put her in charge?” Older and wiser heads will say, “This is a do-ocracy. If you think you can do Mary’s job, and you want to, then get up there and do it. She’ll probably be relieved. If not, don’t be a jerk and make a big stink about it, or else she’ll stop working so hard and we won’t have anything to eat!”
... which is apparently taken from:
https://communitywiki.org/wiki/DoOcracy
... which is another wiki I'll have to dive into.
Write it.
As an openbsd user, I will say that bluetooth is pretty far down the list of things I care about.
As an openbsd user, I will say that bluetooth is pretty far down the list of things I care about.
I'm an OpenBSD user and Bluetooth Audio is a non-problem. Creative makes little USB Audio devices that OpenBSD treats as a HID soundcard and Creative handles the Bluetooth itself.
There are larger forms of this but Creative's form factor is very small.
This is probably why no-one has written it yet.
There are larger forms of this but Creative's form factor is very small.
This is probably why no-one has written it yet.
Do you have a link to it?
https://en.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/creative-bluetooth-a...
Thet also have a BT-W3 that's USB-C now.
Thet also have a BT-W3 that's USB-C now.
For the lazy:
https://en.creative.com/p/speakers/creative-bt-w3
> Write it.
This is getting really old. Not all users are programmers.
This is getting really old. Not all users are programmers.
The number of regular OpenBSD users that are not programmers is probably vanishingly thin. If my memory serves me correctly, there are features of modern x86 processors that it straight up doesn't implement on a don't-care basis, so it's pretty safe to say that nobody that has made peace with that is looking to deal with technology as maligned as Bluetooth when they're likely already buying hardware specifically to run OpenBSD.
Do you have any links to that?
I am curious what they are?
I am curious what they are?
https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=152600018515730&w=2
This is what I had in mind. This obviously impacts some useful gdb features, but such is the nature of OpenBSD.
This is what I had in mind. This obviously impacts some useful gdb features, but such is the nature of OpenBSD.
I'm a fan of OpenBSD's more conservative and structured approach to software development, but in this case I must beg to differ. In the linked CVE, OpenBSD was unaffected because "[it] didn't chase the fad of using every Intel cpu feature." The feature in question was user-space hardware debug register access. Without such access, watch-points are borderline unusable[0].
Perhaps prohibiting access to user-space except GDB would be a reasonable compromise. Also, debug registers are not unique to x86: most (all?) CPU architectures have them. So calling it a "fad [...] Intel cpu feature" is a bit unfair.
[0] https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=152609160230624&w=2
Perhaps prohibiting access to user-space except GDB would be a reasonable compromise. Also, debug registers are not unique to x86: most (all?) CPU architectures have them. So calling it a "fad [...] Intel cpu feature" is a bit unfair.
[0] https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=152609160230624&w=2
You could also pay someone else to write it for you. OpenBSD is a free, community based project - you cant really complain it doesnt do what you want if you arent willing to invest any time or money.
Say I wanted to go down this route and pay someone to implement Bluetooth in OpenBSD - don't you think that'd be a huge project and cost many thousands of dollars?
Figure out some interested people upfront and a rough time (thus cost) estimate.
Then pool resources via a funding platform, get the word out (here on HN, social media, mailing lists) and you may get it done quite soon and also at a low relatively low cost per user.
Then pool resources via a funding platform, get the word out (here on HN, social media, mailing lists) and you may get it done quite soon and also at a low relatively low cost per user.
It would 10.000 -> up range for sure.
To be honest, with some other open source projects I've wanted to "pay for someone else to do it".
But like, that's actually _also_ a lot of effort! Especially for projects that are "abandoned" or have no obvious owner, since then you're in "hire a random X programmer to do this for you".
I feel like more OSS projects should go beyond "Donate" and have a "buy a feature/bug fix" button.
But like, that's actually _also_ a lot of effort! Especially for projects that are "abandoned" or have no obvious owner, since then you're in "hire a random X programmer to do this for you".
I feel like more OSS projects should go beyond "Donate" and have a "buy a feature/bug fix" button.
Makes sense. “You get what you pay for.” “Don’t look the gift horse in the mouth.” “Take it or leave it.” Sure. But the old trope still feels wrong somehow.
Not really - in the case of Linux you pay the same price as OpenBSD but you get much more.
That's because enough people decided to put enough effort to support as many use cases as possible, until the OS got enough momentum to be hard to ignore.
The BSD approach has instead always been "you want it? then code it yourself and open a merge request". That sounds legitimate, but that's the real reason why OpenBSD has never taken off outside of its small niche of geeks - despite being an amazingly designed OS under the hood.
And I know many of those geeks who are quite proud of being part of a tiny niche that scuffs at Bluetooth, USB 3.0, QHD displays or anything that a "normal user" might want - had it been for them a 640x480 screen with a working session of xterm would have largely sufficed. But that's also the reason why there aren't many "normal people" using their OS.
At some point one should also ponder why we support and contribute to open-source projects (especially considering that we mostly do it in our spare time, that, in the case of developers, is often limited and precious). Is it because we want to make the (IT) world a better place with more free and cool products and attract more people, or is it because we like our own well-curated niche and we don't want to let anybody in?
That's because enough people decided to put enough effort to support as many use cases as possible, until the OS got enough momentum to be hard to ignore.
The BSD approach has instead always been "you want it? then code it yourself and open a merge request". That sounds legitimate, but that's the real reason why OpenBSD has never taken off outside of its small niche of geeks - despite being an amazingly designed OS under the hood.
And I know many of those geeks who are quite proud of being part of a tiny niche that scuffs at Bluetooth, USB 3.0, QHD displays or anything that a "normal user" might want - had it been for them a 640x480 screen with a working session of xterm would have largely sufficed. But that's also the reason why there aren't many "normal people" using their OS.
At some point one should also ponder why we support and contribute to open-source projects (especially considering that we mostly do it in our spare time, that, in the case of developers, is often limited and precious). Is it because we want to make the (IT) world a better place with more free and cool products and attract more people, or is it because we like our own well-curated niche and we don't want to let anybody in?
I disagree that there is any fundamental difference between Linux and OpenBSD, when it comes to supporting new features, around who should do the work. You’ll find plenty of “where’s the patch?” replies in linuxland too.
The difference is that OpenBSD BDFLs (Theo et al.) have not been willing to compromise their vision of what the OS should be and how it should be developed just to chase popularity. Look at how they still use CVS, ship their own httpd and ssl libs, dropped sudo years ago (and then rewrote it)... they prioritise consistency and reliability over ubiquity and “the new shiny”. Chances are that, even if you wrote a BT stack yourself and submitted it, it wouldn’t be merged unless it fits their philosophy.
That’s the real difference: Linus and his generals have been willing to accomodate and support a higher number of features just for the sake of it, because it was cool; they were more accepting of incoming developers; and they were much friendlier towards business interests, accepting binary blobs and so on, which is somewhat ironic (Linux is very hard-GPL “inside” but then gave up when it comes to drivers; OpenBSD is, well, BSD everywhere, but they push super hard for manufacturers to open their drivers).
OoenBSD makes IT better too, but it does it on its own terms, and that’s fine.
The difference is that OpenBSD BDFLs (Theo et al.) have not been willing to compromise their vision of what the OS should be and how it should be developed just to chase popularity. Look at how they still use CVS, ship their own httpd and ssl libs, dropped sudo years ago (and then rewrote it)... they prioritise consistency and reliability over ubiquity and “the new shiny”. Chances are that, even if you wrote a BT stack yourself and submitted it, it wouldn’t be merged unless it fits their philosophy.
That’s the real difference: Linus and his generals have been willing to accomodate and support a higher number of features just for the sake of it, because it was cool; they were more accepting of incoming developers; and they were much friendlier towards business interests, accepting binary blobs and so on, which is somewhat ironic (Linux is very hard-GPL “inside” but then gave up when it comes to drivers; OpenBSD is, well, BSD everywhere, but they push super hard for manufacturers to open their drivers).
OoenBSD makes IT better too, but it does it on its own terms, and that’s fine.
You can like your own niche without holding a strong opinion about ‘letting people in’. Not going out of one’s way to be welcoming is not an indication of gatekeeping or any other ill intent.
I agree with the attitude of "if you want it, code it" however I disagree with this point. Gatekeeping does not have to be intentional for it to be the case. Sometimes it can be out of good-will, even.
For an example of the last point, transgender care in the UK -- it takes 2 appointments to get treated (hormone therapy), it can take up to 4+ years to get the first appointment (those are the smaller waiting lists), and another year or longer to get the second before you are finally treated for it. This isn't done out of bad-will, it is done out of intent to not mistreat people. However, the effect of this is that it gatekeeps people who can have access to trans care to those who are able to afford it.
Gatekeeping does not require intent, nor does it require malice. It can simply be the result of a cultural artifact creating what is percieved to be a hostile culture.
For an example of the last point, transgender care in the UK -- it takes 2 appointments to get treated (hormone therapy), it can take up to 4+ years to get the first appointment (those are the smaller waiting lists), and another year or longer to get the second before you are finally treated for it. This isn't done out of bad-will, it is done out of intent to not mistreat people. However, the effect of this is that it gatekeeps people who can have access to trans care to those who are able to afford it.
Gatekeeping does not require intent, nor does it require malice. It can simply be the result of a cultural artifact creating what is percieved to be a hostile culture.
> Is it because we want to make the (IT) world a better place with more free and cool products and attract more people, or is it because we like our own well-curated niche and we don't want to let anybody in?
Both? OpenBSD's niche is being so secure it (almost) hurts. Curating that is worthwhile in a Research OS sense: How many knobs can we tweak on a POSIX system to increase security while explicitly and loudly not caring about much of anything else? Keeping everyone who doesn't share that vision out is part of the plan.
They can be the security pioneers, and the rest of us can see where they get scalped so we don't repeat their errors.
Both? OpenBSD's niche is being so secure it (almost) hurts. Curating that is worthwhile in a Research OS sense: How many knobs can we tweak on a POSIX system to increase security while explicitly and loudly not caring about much of anything else? Keeping everyone who doesn't share that vision out is part of the plan.
They can be the security pioneers, and the rest of us can see where they get scalped so we don't repeat their errors.
This is getting really old. You're getting free software, and the programmers are programming totally for free, benefiting you in the process.
People aren't just going to write things they don't have an interest in.
Who is pushing users to use OpenBSD?
Nobody. That’s the problem, if you will. Users are effectively pushed away from OpenBSD.
It’s not a problem, nobody minds if you don’t use it. If it’s in products, it’s not likely you would even find out. Everything isn’t for everybody, after all. A hundred companies and more are running Linux, Theo and a couple dozen people run OpenBSD. It’s hand crafted and if you don’t like it, there’s a big giant circus tent called Linux over there.
There's not a lot of applications where bluetooth is essential. Personally, after several rounds of disappointment with bluetooth mice, the only thing I use bluetooth for is handsfree calling and sometimes music in cars. Even that sometimes doesn't work (my spouse's Nokia 7.2 couldn't connect to her car between July and December, because something in the Nokia firmware was broken; worked fine with my car though).
So, my guess is nobody who works on OpenBSD a lot cares about bluetooth on OpenBSD, because they're not using bluetooth much, and don't see any use cases for it that would help them.
So, my guess is nobody who works on OpenBSD a lot cares about bluetooth on OpenBSD, because they're not using bluetooth much, and don't see any use cases for it that would help them.
[deleted]
Why not 'nobody contributed it so far'?
I think it is better to leave it out until there is a
solid implementation of it.
Saves everyone a lot of frustration.
Saves everyone a lot of frustration.
What's wrong with bluetoothd?
What's wrong with bluetooth in general? Essentially, it's an under-specified security nightmare. Of course, it's also pretty important for certain classes of devices.
I've never had a bluetooth device that actually worked reliably. Granted, my experience is limited to mostly keyboards and mice. If the bluetooth isn't giving me issues, the battery is. No thanks. I'll stick with USB and wired devices.
My Bluetooth headphones have been pretty bulletproof since I started using them a few years ago. Battery life still lasts two or three weeks ay my usage levels too. But I only keep them paired to one device, and I understand most of the grief with these sorts of things comes with switching between hosts often.
Oh, wow. I have NEVER heard of anyone where bluetooth has "just worked".
Well, that's not true. People in the Apple bubble say that Apple devices work with Apple headphones. But that is it.
Well, that's not true. People in the Apple bubble say that Apple devices work with Apple headphones. But that is it.
My bluetooth headphones work well if I'm sitting still. They don't work if I'm walking. So I would say that bluetooth headphones don't work.
If the opinion is “don’t support wildly insecure things” I’m happy that somebody out there has that opinion. OpenBSD, its quality/security opinions, and the consequences aren’t for everyone, but they certainly don’t have to be.
And it’s a laptop, lots of people almost never use bluetooth on a laptop. You might, I do sometimes, but it’s hardly essential.
And it’s a laptop, lots of people almost never use bluetooth on a laptop. You might, I do sometimes, but it’s hardly essential.
This is why Qubes doesn't support Bluetooth. It breaks the virtualization security boundaries.
Ah, really? Yeah, Bluetooth is not supported in Dom0, but I'm sure that you can assign the Bluetooth PCI-E adapter to a VM using IOMMU, can't you?
I'll try that, thanks. My recollection is that Qubes pulled out the Bluetooth packages from the Fedora repos but I haven't visited it in a while.
I think the claim that bluetooth is "wildly insecure" needs justification.
I think their opinion is rather liberal-- simply, "Don't attempt to maintain dumpster fires, and be open source."
It's an important commentary on bluetooth that it cannot be included in such a system. In that sense OpenBSD is a valuable filter, even if that makes it impractical to run on a laptop for your use case.
It's an important commentary on bluetooth that it cannot be included in such a system. In that sense OpenBSD is a valuable filter, even if that makes it impractical to run on a laptop for your use case.
I bought a little hardware bluetooth usb transceiver [0], I plug it in when I want the default sound to come out my usb speakers, it sticks out about a centimeter.
I'm happy to make this trade-off, given how consistent and reliable OpenBSD is. Not a deal breaker for me.
[0] https://amzn.com/B00ZYYPFHU
I'm happy to make this trade-off, given how consistent and reliable OpenBSD is. Not a deal breaker for me.
[0] https://amzn.com/B00ZYYPFHU
Really? I've never used bluetooth, one of the first things I turn off in any device I come across. I do use wifi daily however.
With wireless headphones / earbuds becoming quite common, bluetooth for a laptop is less "optional" than it used to be.
That's another thing I don't use, any accessories that take batteries. My phone is the main exception.
It seems like it does though?
https://man.openbsd.org/OpenBSD-5.5/bluetooth.4
I'm not sure why the article says it doesn't support bluetooth.
https://man.openbsd.org/OpenBSD-5.5/bluetooth.4
I'm not sure why the article says it doesn't support bluetooth.
OpenBSD 5.5 was released in May 2014. The Bluetooth stack was removed later that year: http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20140729070721
Notice that that's for OpenBSD 5.5; it was removed.
That's the man page for OpenBSD 5.5.
Bump 5.5 up to any higher number and you'll get "not found". Bluetooth was removed around ~2014 in OpenBSD.
Bump 5.5 up to any higher number and you'll get "not found". Bluetooth was removed around ~2014 in OpenBSD.
At least to you maybe, but I only use Bluetooth on my laptop for playing music to a speaker, which could I could replace with a long cable if I really wanted to (or some other kind of network player). On my phone, I first intentionally enabled bluetooth recently for my state's Covid tracing app.
Bluetooth has unfixable security risks baked into the protocol, it's ideal for OpenBSD to ignore it.
OpenBSD is just so good. There's no BS. Everything just either works, or it isn't supported.
Well, I wouldn't go that far. Last time I tried OpenBSD I ran into several bugs.
One reproducible freeze, one sloppy coding (ksh), and some leftover cruft in the kernel.
Previous times I've used OpenBSD I've encountered bugs in what feels like any place I've looked. MPLS, time parsing in libc, …
But it's definitely more "if it exists, it works" than the Lennartware that's been taking over Linux for the last several years.
Some thoughts from 2019: https://blog.habets.se/2019/10/OpenBSD-in-2019.html
One reproducible freeze, one sloppy coding (ksh), and some leftover cruft in the kernel.
Previous times I've used OpenBSD I've encountered bugs in what feels like any place I've looked. MPLS, time parsing in libc, …
But it's definitely more "if it exists, it works" than the Lennartware that's been taking over Linux for the last several years.
Some thoughts from 2019: https://blog.habets.se/2019/10/OpenBSD-in-2019.html
I see some similarity, in terms of ruthlessly good design, to the Jobsian Apple era
> Suspend / resume No The firmware does not support ACPI S3 suspend.
Lol at the state of hardware.
Lol at the state of hardware.
for real! some later versions of the X1C have had S3 patched in but when the X1C6 was first released this was a surprise to me. Apparently Windows is moving towards S1-only and that gets reflected in firmwares originally designed for windows computers.
For the uninitiated, without S3 closing the laptop lid will either continue to drain battery pretty damned quickly (S1) OR cause the OS to take much longer to resume completely from disk (S4 aka hibernate). As SSDs get bigger/faster/cheaper in comparison to RAM, S4 will start to seem more equivalent, but to make this sensible on an ultrabook you might want to opt for that 1+TB NVME so you can hibernate on lid-shut without eating a significant fraction of your disk on swap.
For the uninitiated, without S3 closing the laptop lid will either continue to drain battery pretty damned quickly (S1) OR cause the OS to take much longer to resume completely from disk (S4 aka hibernate). As SSDs get bigger/faster/cheaper in comparison to RAM, S4 will start to seem more equivalent, but to make this sensible on an ultrabook you might want to opt for that 1+TB NVME so you can hibernate on lid-shut without eating a significant fraction of your disk on swap.
The requirement for certification with S1 aka Modern Standby btw requires that proper S1 implementation draws same or less power than S3, iirc.
But that requires pretty heavy power saving code
But that requires pretty heavy power saving code
Note for this laptop, specifically, it maxes out at 16GB RAM, and it's soldered, so that is a hard cap. That'd take a 256GB SSD down to 240GB after swap. I don't think it's a big concern for this machine, though certainly could be for some mobile workstation with much more RAM.
16 GB of RAM seems fine even on a 256 GB disk.
(It's plenty at that point, but hardly seems to be the yes/no on the whole deal)
(It's plenty at that point, but hardly seems to be the yes/no on the whole deal)
kidding aside, I'm opinionated: if it doesn't suspend/resume, it's not a laptop.
There's the opposite. If it doesn't disable suspend, it is not a work computer.
my work macbook will close all the network connections/compile/rendering when i close the lid to walk from meeting to meeting (or used to. seems like the universe closed this bug as 'WONT FIX')
I have no decent UX to disable that when i need my network connections/compile time/render time/etc... It's either sleep enabled and i can't risk touching the lid, or complicated arcane steps to break sleep and allow me to carry it.
my work macbook will close all the network connections/compile/rendering when i close the lid to walk from meeting to meeting (or used to. seems like the universe closed this bug as 'WONT FIX')
I have no decent UX to disable that when i need my network connections/compile time/render time/etc... It's either sleep enabled and i can't risk touching the lid, or complicated arcane steps to break sleep and allow me to carry it.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/amphetamine/id937984704?mt=12
Amphetamine (for your Mac!)
Amphetamine (for your Mac!)
Macs in the last decade are like windows computers in the late 90s.
Every single little obvious feature depend on a shaddy shareware app running on your taskbar.
want to close the lid? amphetamine. Want to copy paste history? copyQ. Want per-window alt-tab? Switch. Want to be able to change the volume? soundflower.
i have some twenty icons there now. And that's not even counting the chrome ones to disable features i don't want on the browser. sigh.
Every single little obvious feature depend on a shaddy shareware app running on your taskbar.
want to close the lid? amphetamine. Want to copy paste history? copyQ. Want per-window alt-tab? Switch. Want to be able to change the volume? soundflower.
i have some twenty icons there now. And that's not even counting the chrome ones to disable features i don't want on the browser. sigh.
It suspends/resumes just fine as long as your OS supports it. The issue is that you need much better runtime power management since it's now up to the OS to put parts in a low power state rather than relying on the firmware to do it.
well the point is that OpenBSD does not support it, so having OpenBSD on a laptop removes the laptop-ness.
No. Modern firmwares usually support S3 just fine - but it's patched away to make "modern standby" work more easily from the perspective of the hardware manufacturer.
With enough whining (ex: the Thinkpad community), the manufacturer can be convinced to replaced their half baked solution by something slightly better.
If you do not care about TPM, you can also patch your ACPI tables yourself.
With enough whining (ex: the Thinkpad community), the manufacturer can be convinced to replaced their half baked solution by something slightly better.
If you do not care about TPM, you can also patch your ACPI tables yourself.
It's the same for the recent Dell laptops, unfortunately [1].
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25940172
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25940172
No, it's a software problem.
First, try disabling TPM (because of a TXT attack from S3), cf https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/acpi-entering-s3-cant-wak... and https://www.darkreading.com/vulnerabilities---threats/new-at...
If S3 is not supported, it is usually due to laziness, to prevent an ACPI GPE storm and causing wakeups in S0ix. People who glue together BIOS code and ACPI tables are not the best and the brightest: instead of using a context dependent EC mask, they simply disable the GPE altogether.
You can add that back with a DSDT patch: all you need is a vector for PRW (power resource wake), making sure the GPE for EC wake interrupt is not masked.
First, try disabling TPM (because of a TXT attack from S3), cf https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/acpi-entering-s3-cant-wak... and https://www.darkreading.com/vulnerabilities---threats/new-at...
If S3 is not supported, it is usually due to laziness, to prevent an ACPI GPE storm and causing wakeups in S0ix. People who glue together BIOS code and ACPI tables are not the best and the brightest: instead of using a context dependent EC mask, they simply disable the GPE altogether.
You can add that back with a DSDT patch: all you need is a vector for PRW (power resource wake), making sure the GPE for EC wake interrupt is not masked.
I have an x1 6th gen running freebsd. I am a little disappointed with how it's been falling apart. SSD failed early last year. Lost contact with a usb c port a few months after that. LCD has a vertical gray line. Some paint started chipping off around the trackpad.
I will probably replace it with another X1 because I am a masochist. But I do wish it were a bit more sturdy. Other than that, I like the size and hardware support.
I will probably replace it with another X1 because I am a masochist. But I do wish it were a bit more sturdy. Other than that, I like the size and hardware support.
All this is very unlikely for a ThinkPad which can be bought with a 5 year warranty and is military-grade tested. Before buying one I have spoken with a licensed service partner in Frankfurt, Germany and he told me, they rarely get any ThinkPads to repair but they constantly get other Lenovo brands to repair. And this is Frankfurt, where you will see only ThinkPads as business laptops in banks...
I googled some of these issues as I faced them and I often found others hitting the same.
It seems like the particular model of SSD I got had a lot of issues for many users. The USB C port coming loose is also something I found other people facing.
Maybe X1 Carbon is more shoddy or fragile than other lines.
It seems like the particular model of SSD I got had a lot of issues for many users. The USB C port coming loose is also something I found other people facing.
Maybe X1 Carbon is more shoddy or fragile than other lines.
The display on my 6th gen has developed flickering issues after only a year and half of light usage. I think the quality on these has gone down a lot recently.
I bought a T25 specifically for the keyboard, the rubberized coating is already wearing off on the palm rest, the screen has this whitish spot that’s brighter than any other part of the screen now, and I found out the stupid thing is held together by clips. I feel like a complete moron.
Waaaaay back when, I had a plan to turn my months long tweaking FreeBSD (6?) on my laptop into becoming a reseller of laptops with BSD pre-installed (this was back when Dell did not ship anything with linux on, and laptops still had some kind of margin).
Like most of my ideas it withered on the vine of bills and rent but every time I look at an Apple Mac there is still a twinge that says "Lenovo makes 100,000 laptops with exactly same components for huge corporate A and B, so there is room to tack on 1,000 more to keep the hardware base stable and release a run of perfectly stable machines, that just work.
Or ... frankly my dell refurbished laptop runs three flavours of linux quite fine thank you. maybe I just cannot go back to BSD ... which is a shame.
Like most of my ideas it withered on the vine of bills and rent but every time I look at an Apple Mac there is still a twinge that says "Lenovo makes 100,000 laptops with exactly same components for huge corporate A and B, so there is room to tack on 1,000 more to keep the hardware base stable and release a run of perfectly stable machines, that just work.
Or ... frankly my dell refurbished laptop runs three flavours of linux quite fine thank you. maybe I just cannot go back to BSD ... which is a shame.
It's been a very long time since I owned a Thinkpad, 2001-ish. To give a time frame around this time there were companies like Circuit City was busted with the rise of Fry's Electronics. I'm unsure if Best Buy's was a thing at the time. The look of the Thinkpads are still very similar to ones today, but of course very modernized to times then.
I would very much appreciate who might be able to weigh in their experience who has used both a Thinkpad and a Macbook book as primary machines. It's been a while since I last purchased a pc-based laptop and would like to explore options again. Another I was interested in the past include Alienware.
I would very much appreciate who might be able to weigh in their experience who has used both a Thinkpad and a Macbook book as primary machines. It's been a while since I last purchased a pc-based laptop and would like to explore options again. Another I was interested in the past include Alienware.
I used a MacBook, first Air and then Pro until 2018. Then I switched to ThinkPad because I had sold my MacBook pro 2015 and needed a new laptop. And the new MacBooks were not to my taste. The Thinkpad was fantastic. T470s, took care of all my needs, lots of ports, upgradeable RAM und SSD.
Recently I upgraded to a Ryzen-based Dell but it is hot and loud. I am considering going back to MacBook depending on what they release next.
Recently I upgraded to a Ryzen-based Dell but it is hot and loud. I am considering going back to MacBook depending on what they release next.
Wanting to upgrade to the newer Mac M Processor. Wait. Or a pc notebook. Decisions, decisions, decisions, ...
Today I learned that Lenovo touchpads have a mechanical click mechanism. After ~2 years.
Interesting, it was the first thing I checked. Loved that feature on the MacBooks so was very happy my X1 Carbon 5th Gen had it.
I strongly support a fixed touchpad. Tap to click is so much better than constant "thunking"
The one on my X1 G6 is pretty stiff, that's why I never noticed it. I only ever tap for click and double tap for click+hold.
Who would really notice when the TrackPoint is so much better?
I love the trackpoint but it's an RSI creating machine in my experience.
Me too. I just cannot use them.
I remove the red nub too because I don't like how it feels when I'm typing. I just wish a touchpoint-free keyboard was simply an option. Other than that I think ThinkPads are perfect though I lament the lack of ac real Ethernet port on recent models
I remove the red nub too because I don't like how it feels when I'm typing. I just wish a touchpoint-free keyboard was simply an option. Other than that I think ThinkPads are perfect though I lament the lack of ac real Ethernet port on recent models
I have the opposite experience.
I mostly use a bluetooth mouse. I don't think I'm bothered by the pause when it wakes up from sleeping, and other than that it works great, no dropouts or whatever.
If I'm not using the mouse I double tap for click+hold.
If I'm not using the mouse I double tap for click+hold.
> The firmware does not support ACPI S3 suspend.
... I am so over modern Thinkpads.
... I am so over modern Thinkpads.
That really long bendy heatpipe looks so weird. Not clean.. Irksome :P. Might consider this machine anyway though.
I wish this had an Apple-style non-moveable trackpad
OpenBSD just gets better every day. Kudos to the developers, it’s nice to have an alternative to Linux which works so well on the desktop.
More consumers need to be made aware of this and everyone should boycott such products. Especially for the price they are paying ($1000+ for this model). If we just give in without protesting about it we are just giving up our rights to repair our devices.