Why we’ve canceled flights, and what we are doing to get back on track(news.alaskaair.com)
news.alaskaair.com
Why we’ve canceled flights, and what we are doing to get back on track
https://news.alaskaair.com/alaska-airlines/operations/spring-operation-update/
148 comments
The "How we got here" section blames pilots leaving (or being forced out,) covid illness, and storms.
Then it goes on to cite a "picketing" event--that, hand to god, didn't cause any cancellations--while everyone knows it was a walkout.
Now, mind you, Alaska supports BIPOC pilots. Can't leave an opportunity to signal that hard on the table.
And, finally, Alaska has the best pilot remuneration. So good that the union and the company have been deadlocked for 3 years.
They simply can't resist the urge to write up this bunk. Nobody appreciates it. But everyone does it anyway. This could have been one paragraph that says there was poor management that led to a compounding effect. We don't have enough pilots. We should have adjusted the routes, but we just let it.
Then it goes on to cite a "picketing" event--that, hand to god, didn't cause any cancellations--while everyone knows it was a walkout.
Now, mind you, Alaska supports BIPOC pilots. Can't leave an opportunity to signal that hard on the table.
And, finally, Alaska has the best pilot remuneration. So good that the union and the company have been deadlocked for 3 years.
They simply can't resist the urge to write up this bunk. Nobody appreciates it. But everyone does it anyway. This could have been one paragraph that says there was poor management that led to a compounding effect. We don't have enough pilots. We should have adjusted the routes, but we just let it.
> The "How we got here" section blames pilots leaving (or being forced out,) covid illness, and storms.
> Now, mind you, Alaska supports BIPOC pilots. Can't leave an opportunity to signal that hard on the table.
Exactly, I don't want to know how they are training new BIPOC pilots, I want to know how they are getting the old ones back. The fact that they will have mostly inexperienced pilots is far from ideal.
Besides, I don't care if my pilot meets a BIPOC quota, I want the _best_ pilot they can find. Their situation is quite dire and they should get their priorities in check.
> Now, mind you, Alaska supports BIPOC pilots. Can't leave an opportunity to signal that hard on the table.
Exactly, I don't want to know how they are training new BIPOC pilots, I want to know how they are getting the old ones back. The fact that they will have mostly inexperienced pilots is far from ideal.
Besides, I don't care if my pilot meets a BIPOC quota, I want the _best_ pilot they can find. Their situation is quite dire and they should get their priorities in check.
These pilots expand the candidate pool.
Do they? They were previously refusing to hire BIPOC candidates?
When was the last time you flew a plane and noticed the pilot? Was he a somewhat older white guy? That's fine. Do we have an unlimited supply of older white guy pilots? Unlikely.
If you wish to improve way you hire in an industry like the airlines, where candidates make multi-year and even multi-decade commitments to one of a very few companies, this requires you to invest in a recruitment pipeline, and do outreach. This is part of it.
Career search is terrifyingly inefficient. People don't just land in jobs randomly, but they often don't realize the best career path and pick that one. Rather, labor market has a variety of structural inefficiencies and a strong component of path dependency. If your friends are all going into programming, you might think about it more seriously and decide to go into programming. If you were a white kid and none of your friends are into programming and every time you saw a programmer it was some, say, some very talented young woman of Indian descent in a sari, making references to Diwali that you didn't understand, well, you might not think programming is the career path for you. But if someone puts a bunch of ads in your neighborhood and bus stop and the newspaper and the local community college for a career in programming, emphasizing that you're welcome there too, that might change, and you might find some people you can relate to there, easing your onboarding into the community in general until you understand and can make all the jokes about Kennedy Steve squawking 7500 at the ramp.
If you wish to improve way you hire in an industry like the airlines, where candidates make multi-year and even multi-decade commitments to one of a very few companies, this requires you to invest in a recruitment pipeline, and do outreach. This is part of it.
Career search is terrifyingly inefficient. People don't just land in jobs randomly, but they often don't realize the best career path and pick that one. Rather, labor market has a variety of structural inefficiencies and a strong component of path dependency. If your friends are all going into programming, you might think about it more seriously and decide to go into programming. If you were a white kid and none of your friends are into programming and every time you saw a programmer it was some, say, some very talented young woman of Indian descent in a sari, making references to Diwali that you didn't understand, well, you might not think programming is the career path for you. But if someone puts a bunch of ads in your neighborhood and bus stop and the newspaper and the local community college for a career in programming, emphasizing that you're welcome there too, that might change, and you might find some people you can relate to there, easing your onboarding into the community in general until you understand and can make all the jokes about Kennedy Steve squawking 7500 at the ramp.
As you observe airline pilots, especially for the big passenger planes, tend to be older. This is because you need to work your way up to flying those planes. If the pilots are 50-60 years old, then, when they were born, (1960's - 1970's) the USA was ~90% white. That compares to now when it's about 60% white. So, it makes sense that older people in the US, airline pilots included, are disproportionately white compared to current population.
Airlines also tend to hire out of the airforce - letting the government do the work of training pilots. The airforce is (and was) disproportionately white and male compared to the general population. It seems perfectly reasonable for airlines to hire trained pilots out of the airforce.
I'm not really sure what you're saying with this comment. As I read it - it seems like you're suggesting that, wittingly or unwittingly, airlines are racist and their racism is so severe that it overrides their financial incentives to source pilots from as wide a pool as possible. And, your reason for believing this, is that you notice airline pilots are often old white men.
Airlines also tend to hire out of the airforce - letting the government do the work of training pilots. The airforce is (and was) disproportionately white and male compared to the general population. It seems perfectly reasonable for airlines to hire trained pilots out of the airforce.
I'm not really sure what you're saying with this comment. As I read it - it seems like you're suggesting that, wittingly or unwittingly, airlines are racist and their racism is so severe that it overrides their financial incentives to source pilots from as wide a pool as possible. And, your reason for believing this, is that you notice airline pilots are often old white men.
Correct, especially if you're in any Aviation related group or friends - you know exactly what is going on. Alaskaair generally does not want to pay competitive rates.
This is corporate whitewashing at the worst, and I am glad that the pilots have enough collective bargaining power to demand AlaskaAir to meet their demands.
I hate to suggest go on facebook, but facebook groups of pilots and general PNW aviation have tons of discussion about this, with many pilots themselves voicing comments about their opinion and experience w/ Alaskair.
This is corporate whitewashing at the worst, and I am glad that the pilots have enough collective bargaining power to demand AlaskaAir to meet their demands.
I hate to suggest go on facebook, but facebook groups of pilots and general PNW aviation have tons of discussion about this, with many pilots themselves voicing comments about their opinion and experience w/ Alaskair.
> Now, mind you, Alaska supports BIPOC pilots. Can't leave an opportunity to signal that hard on the table.
Does this sound concerning for anyone? Not only does it come across as racist, but I would expect a company would get the best candidate they can find for these life critical positions. I don't care about the color of their skin or ethnicity, I only are that they are able to excel at their job, as people's lives are literally at stake now. I couldn't care less that they meet or didn't meet some diversity quota.
Does this sound concerning for anyone? Not only does it come across as racist, but I would expect a company would get the best candidate they can find for these life critical positions. I don't care about the color of their skin or ethnicity, I only are that they are able to excel at their job, as people's lives are literally at stake now. I couldn't care less that they meet or didn't meet some diversity quota.
There is definitely some PR speak, it's the paragraph that highlights "No this is _not_ as a result of a strike or labor situation!"
They're mortified of people making the connection that labor has real power right now. They need to set the narrative that something else--COVID, weather, etc.--is causing less pilots to be available.
They're mortified of people making the connection that labor has real power right now. They need to set the narrative that something else--COVID, weather, etc.--is causing less pilots to be available.
This is absolutely PR speak that fails to address the real issue.
Which is that the airline pays peanuts and nobody wants to fly for it.
It's the same shit as the grocery up the street having a sign in their window asking everyone to bear with them because of staffing shortages. The sign's been up there for almost two years. They aren't fooling anybody.
Which is that the airline pays peanuts and nobody wants to fly for it.
It's the same shit as the grocery up the street having a sign in their window asking everyone to bear with them because of staffing shortages. The sign's been up there for almost two years. They aren't fooling anybody.
Every customer service call I make, the first thing I hear is "We're experiencing unusually high call volumes".
The whole thing is PR speak. What they're leaving out is that they don't want to pay senior level pilot salaries anymore so instead of hiring back experienced pilots they are trying to run low hour pilots through the farm to get them into their airline.
> But speaking of Canada, it'll be a cold day in hell before Air Canada ever admits to being the worst major airline in the developed world.
I wouldn't agree more.
I wouldn't agree more.
I wouldn't? You mean, couldn't?
Thought the same thing. In Australia the national airline (Qantas) is currently blaming passengers for the huge delays processing check ins/security
Having flown recently and seeing first-hand how people methodically repack their luggage in front of the rep or automated baggage check-in, trying to bypass weight limits and holding up everyone else, I’d say that airlines (pretty much like Starbucks) should have separate lines for people who have their s—t together.
They do. You just have to buy a business/first-class ticket, and pony up for Precheck or (better) Global Entry.
It's not even remotely the same experience as cattle-class coach. It's expensive, but if you have the money, it's worth every cent. Global Entry has let me bypass MULTI-HOUR-LONG lines for immigration. I hand over our passports and our Global Entry receipts, the agent scans them, and says "Welcome back." That's it. Security? Priority line, I don't take off my coat, belt, or shoes, I don't go through the naked scanner, and I only pull out my electronics because my charger bag has so many wires that it looks like someone's trying to hide a bomb somewhere (so I scan it separately, if they want to look inside, they can and it's a lot quicker).
It's not really fair. It really is me leveraging the fact that I have enough money to pay problems to go away. But it does work. And one of the reasons it does is that Precheck/GE people know the routine.
It's not even remotely the same experience as cattle-class coach. It's expensive, but if you have the money, it's worth every cent. Global Entry has let me bypass MULTI-HOUR-LONG lines for immigration. I hand over our passports and our Global Entry receipts, the agent scans them, and says "Welcome back." That's it. Security? Priority line, I don't take off my coat, belt, or shoes, I don't go through the naked scanner, and I only pull out my electronics because my charger bag has so many wires that it looks like someone's trying to hide a bomb somewhere (so I scan it separately, if they want to look inside, they can and it's a lot quicker).
It's not really fair. It really is me leveraging the fact that I have enough money to pay problems to go away. But it does work. And one of the reasons it does is that Precheck/GE people know the routine.
That's great. Except:
> The TSA PreCheck® Application Program is only open to U.S. citizens, U.S. nationals and lawful permanent residents. [...] Global Entry, NEXUS, and SENTRI allow some foreign citizens to apply.
So I guess screw those other people, right?
> The TSA PreCheck® Application Program is only open to U.S. citizens, U.S. nationals and lawful permanent residents. [...] Global Entry, NEXUS, and SENTRI allow some foreign citizens to apply.
So I guess screw those other people, right?
It’s not about screwing people, it’s about database access.
Countries administer their own version of these trusted traveller programs for their residents since it relies on the ability to perform a mini-background check using that country’s customs and law enforcement databases and apparatus.
UK: https://www.gov.uk/registered-traveller
Canada: https://www.catsa-acsta.gc.ca/en/trusted-travellers
Singapore: https://www.ica.gov.sg/enter-depart/for-singapore-citizens/o...
Countries administer their own version of these trusted traveller programs for their residents since it relies on the ability to perform a mini-background check using that country’s customs and law enforcement databases and apparatus.
UK: https://www.gov.uk/registered-traveller
Canada: https://www.catsa-acsta.gc.ca/en/trusted-travellers
Singapore: https://www.ica.gov.sg/enter-depart/for-singapore-citizens/o...
I don’t get reciprocal fast-entry in other countries unless they have an agreement with the US, so while it’s a bit inconvenient for me, and I wish more did, I make no fuss about EU nationals blazing through the Schengen line when I’m in the slow one. I would do the same in their place.
In most countries, especially in East Asia or central/Eastern Europe, I never see companies say in public "we messed up and here's how".
Aren't Japanese companies, especially transportation companies, well-known for owning up to their mistakes?
Aren't Japanese companies, especially transportation companies, well-known for owning up to their mistakes?
I'd be curious what Japan-knowledgeable hackers say about this. The instances I remember were ones where they chose a figurehead on the exec team, usually one close to retirement, who accepts full responsibility and resigns to publicly take one for the team.
It's sort of a fake mea culpa, in which the culpa isn't in reality mea, but is rather more structural and nobody wants to admit it.
It's sort of a fake mea culpa, in which the culpa isn't in reality mea, but is rather more structural and nobody wants to admit it.
Resigning CEO or related CxO is pretty common way to express apologize for public in Japan large company. The problem is that it won't change anything unless the problem was caused by the CxO.
Well known for formal apologies. They will put forward employees to bow and take the blame for the company. They are less good at transparency, at fully explaining what went wrong and how it will be prevented in the future. Just admitting "a mistake was made" is often sufficient.
I always liked the Panasonic Solar Ark. They built it with solar panels recalled for being shitty (which you could argue is cost saving) but then described it as:
> We have done this to show our sincere regret that this problem has occurred and to express our willingness and determination to both remember what happened and how important it is to maintain quality
Imposing building. I thought it looked cool and found it fascinating that this flagship is a monument to an error.
> We have done this to show our sincere regret that this problem has occurred and to express our willingness and determination to both remember what happened and how important it is to maintain quality
Imposing building. I thought it looked cool and found it fascinating that this flagship is a monument to an error.
It's because they literally gave no reply at first when asked if the pilot picketing had anything to do with the operational issues. A week later they finally put out this press release and had to come clean.
Don't Chinese, Japanese and Korean companies do this all the time? If this happened there, I'd be worried that whoever was responsible might hang themselves.
[deleted]
This is standard culture in Japan, fwiw. It would be considered extremely damaging if a company didn't issue an apology like this after they messed up.
> 10,000 pilots left the airline industry
Hmm. I wonder. Why. That was. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......
Hmm. I wonder. Why. That was. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......
I assume it's because if you're not a senior captain in a major airline, most pilots earn very low wages and work long hours. Though it may be tempting to blame vaccine mandates depending on your ideology.
An article posted below:
https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/2022/04/04/cancellations-c...
> An Alaska Airlines captain, according to a news release from the airline, averages about $341,000 a year, but pilots say it’s not just about money — they also want work rule changes, job security and scheduling flexibility.
So, money doesn't seem to be it alone...
> work rule changes
interesting.
https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/2022/04/04/cancellations-c...
> An Alaska Airlines captain, according to a news release from the airline, averages about $341,000 a year, but pilots say it’s not just about money — they also want work rule changes, job security and scheduling flexibility.
So, money doesn't seem to be it alone...
> work rule changes
interesting.
GP said explicitly (my highlight):
> if you're not a senior captain in a major airline, most pilots earn very low wages
> if you're not a senior captain in a major airline, most pilots earn very low wages
What's interesting is how hard people struggle to force a narrative that isn't there.
If you find that interesting, have you investigated why _people_ do it?
Yes, because they really really want their preconceptions to be validated, and when they are incapable of accepting that there is no evidence for their argument, they choose to take unrelated stories and repackage them as an argument for their side despite a complete lack of support for the position in the source material.
Just like you are doing here.
Just like you are doing here.
I would say something like it comes down to a fundamental distrust of our society and its various institutions of power combined with the fact that despite this distrust _people_ are being made to go along with something they don't believe in.
But ya, _people_ are just uninformed and building a narrative that isn't there.
Even if the narratives are inherently false, can't we at least consider why the mistrust is present instead of essentially accusing _people_ of a lack of logic and borderline calling _people_ crazy?
But ya, _people_ are just uninformed and building a narrative that isn't there.
Even if the narratives are inherently false, can't we at least consider why the mistrust is present instead of essentially accusing _people_ of a lack of logic and borderline calling _people_ crazy?
Oh, sure, we can do that. And often we do. But mistrust is absolutely not an excuse to inflame culture wars and spread misinformation.
Probably because they furloughed a good chunk of them, and it gave them the time and space to decide they didn't want to go back to their miserable, underpaid job.
Starting pay for an Alaska Airlines First Officer in a 737-800 is $93/hr. Not exactly an underpaid job.
And not exactly a job one can step into right out of school. First officer on a 737 for an airline is not by any definition an entry-level position. It is a career highlight, not a footstep.
You're not including all the hours that you spend waiting without getting paid for it. For every hour you are flying, you'll spend another waiting at the airport.
Other airlines pay for this time, Alaska does not. Which is why they can't find pilots. Their overall pay is crap.
Other airlines pay for this time, Alaska does not. Which is why they can't find pilots. Their overall pay is crap.
How many hours a month do they work!
Exactly. This is after a minimum of a decade of training a shit paying jobs, on average it's probably closer to 15 to 20 years I would guess. And they're paid for time in the air. And have to be away from home. And have inconsistent schedules and frequently work in the middle of the night.
They also only get paid for when the door is closed to open, I think. There are a bunch of weird labor rules in the airline industry.
Is that flight hour or working hour. Or travel hour... Certainly not hours away from home.
How is that pay calculated?
Sorry, I'm dense...what is this comment referring to?
From the subheadline:
> more than 97% of its staff received at least one shot after the deadline this week.
If pilots and copilots are massively, massively over-represented in the remaining 3%, you might have a point, but that is a huge and unsupported assumption.
> more than 97% of its staff received at least one shot after the deadline this week.
If pilots and copilots are massively, massively over-represented in the remaining 3%, you might have a point, but that is a huge and unsupported assumption.
> 10,000 pilots left the airline industry during the pandemic.
"airline industry" being the differentiator between what you listed and the original article's claim.
Also, the number you're referencing is United Airline's, so not even Alaskan.
> United Airlines mandated vaccines for staff in August and said more than 97% of its staff received at least one shot after the deadline this week.
All those discrepancies aside, you probably have a point. I don't personally believe it's _this_ reason alone, but I think it's at least a part of the issue.
"airline industry" being the differentiator between what you listed and the original article's claim.
Also, the number you're referencing is United Airline's, so not even Alaskan.
> United Airlines mandated vaccines for staff in August and said more than 97% of its staff received at least one shot after the deadline this week.
All those discrepancies aside, you probably have a point. I don't personally believe it's _this_ reason alone, but I think it's at least a part of the issue.
newacc9(2)
How is this very different from other industries? Many industries are suffering from labor shortages, either via retirements, or people finding better jobs. Perhaps being an airline pilot is just not as good as other job options right now, or maybe a bunch of pilots aged out (60?) and not enough new younger pilots came into the industry to fill the gaps?
That which cannot be questioned, isn't.
reedjosh(3)
Liking the passive voice which manages to mention Omicron and illness in the same sentence without actually saying the staff were sick with Covid.
How would that look in active voice? "Our trainers and students caught covid, so we had to cancel their classes"?
Active voice there feels like they're shifting the blame to their employees, which is never a good look for an employer. I think they did the right thing by keeping it focused on their lack of planning/foresight.
Active voice there feels like they're shifting the blame to their employees, which is never a good look for an employer. I think they did the right thing by keeping it focused on their lack of planning/foresight.
> Trainings were canceled and delayed due to student or trainer illness
This seems to specifically imply that illness in training pilots and pilot trainers is the cause.
I would expect a more passive version to be "Trainings were canceled and delayed due to the Omicron surge..." which doesn't specify if anyone got sick.
This seems to specifically imply that illness in training pilots and pilot trainers is the cause.
I would expect a more passive version to be "Trainings were canceled and delayed due to the Omicron surge..." which doesn't specify if anyone got sick.
Not alaska air but: Currently stuck from a flight canceled on Saturday, next available flight out is Thursday night. I’ve gone through every state of rage and have settled on just never flying again when i get home.
Alaska isn't the only one facing a pilot shortage and an increase in schedules. JetBlue, Southwest, and all of the regional carriers are all underwater when it comes to having a pilot deficit when compared to their schedules. Delta, American, and United are less affected but will still feel it a bit, especially in their regional operations.
It's going to be a looooonng summer.
It's going to be a looooonng summer.
I love AlaskaAir although I'm a bit bias given it's the only way to get there. Never had a bad experience flying with them, at least to Alaska. Don't know how their legs in the lower 48 match up.
AlaskaAir is based in Seattle and makes most of their money flying routes on the west coast (e.g. California).
lazy mountain?
Flying sucks. Flights are always packed and the seats are too close together for comfort. I wonder if a plane was packed with all first class seats how expensive the tickets would be.
I would love if blimp travel would come back, so long as you get more personal space. A modern airship could make the transatlantic trip in about 24-36 hours, so it doesn't really matter for casual vacation travel. It would be quite relaxing, just floating across the ocean with a nice cup of tea and a good book in a small but cozy cabin.
Once the "fastest possible" is broken zeppelin travel offers significant energy savings - it can ride the Gulf Stream and spend most of the actual energy positioning itself correctly there. They could even be designed as sails to catch more.
I thought the Gulf Stream only traveled west to east, but I’m sure there are other prevailing winds that blimps could take advantage of if they were designed to use them? I honestly have never thought about this before, so thanks for that food for thought.
How much faster could blimps travel in these air currents?
How much faster could blimps travel in these air currents?
The currents average something like 70 mph so it adds that to the speed.
A zeppelin properly built could be jet powered and travel quite fast, but a sailing zeppelin could do 60-70 “for free” probably. If it could get high enough.
And the air has to get back somehow or the Gulf Stream would fill Europe with air and North America would run out.
A zeppelin properly built could be jet powered and travel quite fast, but a sailing zeppelin could do 60-70 “for free” probably. If it could get high enough.
And the air has to get back somehow or the Gulf Stream would fill Europe with air and North America would run out.
... and now I'm gonna go read Kenneth Oppel's Airborn, which if you haven't read, you should
>A modern airship could make the transatlantic trip in about 24-36 hours, so it doesn't really matter for casual vacation travel
How many vacation days do you guys get per year?!? Only retired people would find it acceptable to turn an entire day wasted on travel to Europe into a 3 days waste (times two if you plan on coming back).
Unlike cruise ship, they can't fill the airship with fun activities. That travel will be just as boring as a car or train ride.
How many vacation days do you guys get per year?!? Only retired people would find it acceptable to turn an entire day wasted on travel to Europe into a 3 days waste (times two if you plan on coming back).
Unlike cruise ship, they can't fill the airship with fun activities. That travel will be just as boring as a car or train ride.
I've done a long train trip from Shanghai to Urumuqi was that 2 and a half days (this is in the time before HSR). People definitely do it, this was during CNY as well.
Double, more or less, if the sole requirement was to have the same revenue per flight for a full plane. E.g. a small short haul aircraft with, say, 35 rows of economy class (six across) would end up with 30 rows of first class (four across). That cuts capacity by about half.
But some people will pay more for comfort. And most regular people are incredibly price sensitive, they'll suffer quite a lot just to save even 10 bucks on an airline ticket, so your hypothetical airline doing this strategy went bankrupt.
But some people will pay more for comfort. And most regular people are incredibly price sensitive, they'll suffer quite a lot just to save even 10 bucks on an airline ticket, so your hypothetical airline doing this strategy went bankrupt.
I used to fly a route from London City to JFK (with a stopover in Shannon) and a similar route from Newark to Singapore. Both were competitively priced with the business class seats on the 3 class birds on similar routes. In the case of the former, it was much slower than the larger jets, so I assume that put downward pressure on the flight price. For the Newark flight, I think the departing airport being Newark also helped contribute to slightly lower fares than say if it was JFK to SIN.
Having worked in the industry previously, I’m not sure there are many city pairs where all business works but carriers such as La Compagnie have made it work for at least stretches at a time.
Having worked in the industry previously, I’m not sure there are many city pairs where all business works but carriers such as La Compagnie have made it work for at least stretches at a time.
> I wonder if a plane was packed with all first class seats how expensive the tickets would be.
It's pretty normal to have all lie-flat business/first-class flights between major business centres such as New York and London. You wouldn't know about them unless you were booking a first-class ticket in the first place, so they're not very visible.
I think the prices are the same as normal? Otherwise nobody would use them, of course.
It's pretty normal to have all lie-flat business/first-class flights between major business centres such as New York and London. You wouldn't know about them unless you were booking a first-class ticket in the first place, so they're not very visible.
I think the prices are the same as normal? Otherwise nobody would use them, of course.
JSX (formerly JetSuiteX) does something in this vein over a pretty limited route map in the US for ~2-4x the price. It's not like international first class with beds in suites, but it's considerably roomier than domestic premium seats and it comes with some other perks like flying out of private terminals.
There are airlines that do this, and some have been pretty competitively priced vs F on the majors. Here's one I've enjoyed: https://www.lacompagnie.com/
Here is a good analysis of why the situation will never improve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll92ud6Nufw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll92ud6Nufw
I think business class only flights exist for trans Atlantic flights (well, just one biz-only airline left: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_class_airline). Definitely the Concord was single luxury class, but it was cramped (acceptable due to its speed).
A business class only plane would have ticket prices equivalent to business class tickets on a normal flight.
A business class only plane would have ticket prices equivalent to business class tickets on a normal flight.
The problem with this strategy is that there are only a small number of people willing to pay 10x more for first class. If every seat was first class airlines would have to charge much less for the first class experience and so the formerly first class passengers would be spending much less.
That experiment existed, it was called the Concorde
I just visited the Museum of Flight in Seattle, where they have one of the old Concordes. I was struck by how tight and un-luxurious the cabin felt. I have only flown business/first class once, but it was definitely a lot nicer than the seats on the model I walked through.
It was more cramped because the flight only lasted 3.5 hours (NYC to Paris), you didn't need lie flat seats on a trans Atlantic flight that could go so quickly, in theory at least.
Also, when did Seattle flight museum get a Concorde? Its been a couple of years for me, but I'm surprised they have one. Looking on the website, it is outside...maybe we just missed it somehow?
Also, when did Seattle flight museum get a Concorde? Its been a couple of years for me, but I'm surprised they have one. Looking on the website, it is outside...maybe we just missed it somehow?
Yeah, it’s out in the yard with the 747, dreamliner, etc. not sure when they picked it up, but it’s very cool! I suppose it could be a replica, but I’d be surprised if it was. It’s the full deal with cockpit and instruments, engines, gear, etc.
they're not if you're willing to pay extra for comfort
When your basic right seater needs a minimum of 1500 hours flight time, maybe your career path should include a salary higher than a union bus driver.
Yeah, they make way more than any bus driver.
“An Alaska Airlines captain, according to a news release from the airline, averages about $341,000 a year, but pilots say it’s not just about money“
https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/2022/04/04/cancellations-c...
FWIW I just traveled on 4 flights with Alaska Air and this didn’t impact us at all.
“An Alaska Airlines captain, according to a news release from the airline, averages about $341,000 a year, but pilots say it’s not just about money“
https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/2022/04/04/cancellations-c...
FWIW I just traveled on 4 flights with Alaska Air and this didn’t impact us at all.
Right seat != left seat. Check salary of first officers.
According to Glassdoor it's a little over $100k. [1]
I don't know what union bus drivers earn, but probably less than that? Median income is about $44k. It seems like a decent salary.
[1]: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Alaska-Airlines-First-Offic...
I don't know what union bus drivers earn, but probably less than that? Median income is about $44k. It seems like a decent salary.
[1]: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Alaska-Airlines-First-Offic...
A Metro (Seattle) bus driver can easily earn $100k, but the range is crazily from $15k to $130K/year, assuming the upper end is someone in it for awhile working full time, and the lower end is very part time.
What is the difference in probability of achieving that pay? And difference in opportunity cost (debt, time, and effort)?
Without this information, an explicit comparison is impossible.
Without this information, an explicit comparison is impossible.
it's not, because you're looking at major carriers, which no one with the minimum 1500 hours will get a job at.
Airlines in America are traditionally extremely capital intensive, and the customers are very price sensitive. (e.g. "If you want to be a Millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline.") The low salary and unfavorable hours pilots face really originate at the customer level, with most people being unwilling to pay higher ticket prices. It's easy to blame airlines here, but that's a mental shortcut that doesn't represent the truth.
Would Airlines be so capital intensive if not for the security theatre of the TSA and all its related expenses?
Yes. During COVID multiple airlines either almost went bankrupt or suffered huge losses because most of the cost of flying is depreciation of the airplanes themselves. That's why even though the US govt paid for airline employees' wages and fuel costs were 0 because no one was flying during COVID, airlines still suffered big losses.
Yes. TSA security theater is all paid for with a specific line item on your ticket. It is not that expensive:
> The fee is currently $5.60 per one-way trip in air transportation that originates at an airport in the U.S., except that the fee imposed per round trip shall not exceed $11.20
The rest is covered by tax payers, not airliners specifically.
https://www.tsa.gov/news/press/testimony/2020/03/03/examinin...
> The fee is currently $5.60 per one-way trip in air transportation that originates at an airport in the U.S., except that the fee imposed per round trip shall not exceed $11.20
The rest is covered by tax payers, not airliners specifically.
https://www.tsa.gov/news/press/testimony/2020/03/03/examinin...
Pilots at the majors earn 200k-500k. There's evidence of some pilots hitting seven figures. How much does a bus driver make?
Pilots not flying major routes for major airlines make less, in some cases a lot less ($30-40k a year).
Note most of those pilots will be on Horizon, not Alaska.
How is this information relevant on a discussion about a pilot shortage affecting a major carrier?
In the same way that you don't get to be a principal engineer at Google on your first day out of college, you don't get to be a captain on your first day out of flight school.
But the pay and working conditions for new pilots is rather worse than it is for new programmers.
But the pay and working conditions for new pilots is rather worse than it is for new programmers.
Yeah, people should think of this like "what if Google engineers started at $45k salaries instead of $120k+?" They could work for years to get up to that same $300k+ level but they're starting much lower and expected to just take it (and the ultra high mountain view/SF cost of living).
That’s half of it. To get the full pilot experience add “and what if when senior Google engineers left for Apple or Microsoft or Facebook they had to start as junior engineers again at junior pay and could only be promoted back up after the junior engineers already there were promoted?”
Lots of people leave the profession before becoming pilots at a major carrier.
Right seat is the first officer / copilot. Not the pilot. You must spend a long time as a copilot before advancing to the pilot role.
You will earn nothing. And you will be happy.
kepler1(5)
So this explains why my flight got cancelled and then they put me on an earlier flight… twice! I had to reschedule because it went from a 9am to a 7am flight. Quite the difference.
I will have to check, but I don’t believe that I got a unique phone number in any of those emails.
I will have to check, but I don’t believe that I got a unique phone number in any of those emails.
There's little (but not zero) PR-speak here and little (but not zero) passive voice or blame on uncontrollable circumstances: it's a decent enough post-mortem.
In most countries, especially in East Asia or central/Eastern Europe, I never see companies say in public "we messed up and here's how". It's always caused by acts of god, unforeseeable industry conditions, etc. It's never mea culpa.
But speaking of Canada, it'll be a cold day in hell before Air Canada ever admits to being the worst major airline in the developed world.