Macbook Pro Touch Bar runs watchOS(twitter.com)
twitter.com
Macbook Pro Touch Bar runs watchOS
https://twitter.com/stroughtonsmith/status/791872723681239040
196 comments
Technology details aside, I don't understand why Touch Bar is such a big deal. Sure it's shiny and responds to touch, but I don't want to be looking at keyboard and hunt for commands that are sometimes there. I don't want another monitor with additional information, I only have one set of eyes.
Contrary to the HN demography, most people are not touch-typists, and most don't use keyboard shortcuts. Having an interactive, contextual bar of action buttons makes actions that normally require several clicks more discoverable to them.
There was a time (up until yesterday that is) where the Pro series was targeted to said HN demographic. I think the amount of criticism is perfectly reasonable.
Was it, though? The Macbook Pro was never marketed as a developer's machine. Its popularity among people who code was mostly due to the factors that made it popular with people who don't code, plus the coincidence of being Unix under the hood (a choice they didn't make in order to win software developers as hardware customers).
I always saw it as a strong portable machine for people who needed to work on the go. I'm sure video editors, photo editors, audio people use shortcuts and do touch typing.
I know a number of video and photo editors, and while this is anecdata, I'm positive that none of them touch type. I've seen a few of the hunt and peck on a regular basis. I mean, I'm a software dev and I'm not great at typing either.
As a professional photo/video/audio editor, my problem with this is not "touch-typing" but rather it's another thing I'll have to adjust my senses to. I'll have to relearn the keyboard and spend unnecessary time adjusting settings and configuration for something I don't need.
On top of all this, the keyboard will feel more fragile and have more complexity. I prefer reliability over unnecessary complication.
On top of all this, the keyboard will feel more fragile and have more complexity. I prefer reliability over unnecessary complication.
I believe Linus Torvalds used to use a MacBook (can't remember which one) as his dev machine. He most definitely runs Linux and this has nothing to do with macOS being Unix under the hood. I think hardware quality is a major factor why the MacBook is popular.
>> The Macbook Pro was never marketed as a developer's machine.
That's probably true, but isn't its success in part driven by the deluge of Linux/Unix users who were thrilled to finally have a Unix based machine with a beautiful UI that ran on Intel CPUs? Also increased sales from word of mouth by those same ex Linux users telling their Windows using friends to switch?
That's probably true, but isn't its success in part driven by the deluge of Linux/Unix users who were thrilled to finally have a Unix based machine with a beautiful UI that ran on Intel CPUs? Also increased sales from word of mouth by those same ex Linux users telling their Windows using friends to switch?
One thing constantly said to founders here is "don't let a vocal minority come in, tell you they love your product, and then turn into bullies that tell you how you should make said product. You never made it for them; they aren't your market. Don't get confused into thinking they are, just because they're loud." I think that about sums up the relationship between Apple and software developers who use their hardware.
I don't think Linux refugees and their recommendations would be enough to make something a top-selling product.
I think many in HN make the mistake of mixing UNIX and developers on the same sentence.
I happened to use LC III Macs and was a developer back then.
A few years ago I did some work related to acquiring new customers, which required creating an iOS application.
None of those experiences had anything to do with UNIX, yet I am a developer.
Personally, the only reason I am not found of the new Macbook Pro is the price, as I rather have something like the W510's successor.
I happened to use LC III Macs and was a developer back then.
A few years ago I did some work related to acquiring new customers, which required creating an iOS application.
None of those experiences had anything to do with UNIX, yet I am a developer.
Personally, the only reason I am not found of the new Macbook Pro is the price, as I rather have something like the W510's successor.
It's a choice NeXT made, though.
The reason being the competition against Sun and SGI, as an easy way to bring developers into the system, not to let them out again.
Objective-C frameworks for user space and drivers, use of distributed objects, designing GUI applications via Interface Builder, productivity applications like Lotus Improv and Virtuoso, the way applications were packaged didn't had much to do with UNIX culture as such.
Objective-C frameworks for user space and drivers, use of distributed objects, designing GUI applications via Interface Builder, productivity applications like Lotus Improv and Virtuoso, the way applications were packaged didn't had much to do with UNIX culture as such.
> The Macbook Pro was never marketed as a developer's machine.
And in fact AFAIK the standard developer machine at Apple is an iMac (which has an escape key on its standard keyboard).
And in fact AFAIK the standard developer machine at Apple is an iMac (which has an escape key on its standard keyboard).
At the very least, there is then a missed opportunity on Apple's part to continue serving an audience that:
A) Has been served by Apple in the past B) Provides value to Apple in the form of developing all kinds of software solutions that it's other users directly benefit from
A) Has been served by Apple in the past B) Provides value to Apple in the form of developing all kinds of software solutions that it's other users directly benefit from
Gonna point you to this reply, which is quite good:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12818193
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12818193
Quite a coincidence to discover how well it serves them in the developer market. I think they planned it.
It would almost make more sense to put the touchbar on the regular Macbook and a set of proper function keys on the Pro model.
Not "almost". It would make more sense to put a frivolous toy on the MacBook, and keep function keys and ports on the MBP.
Come on, you might not like this, but calling it a "frivolous toy" is condescending at best.
As a developer, i'm extremely jealous. I've actually made something somewhat similar[0] with a physical keyboard because the idea of a set of keys that I can have do useful stuff is such a nice idea.
I would love it if not only was that set of buttons on my laptop, but that it was programmable and customizable per application (half of the keys on that keyboard only work in my IDE)
It might not be for you, but it's not useless.
[0]http://i.imgur.com/jQ72mEA.jpg Cut me some slack on the button functions themselves, I actually don't use a lot of them and want to re-do the layout for a while to get rid of them, but just haven't gotten around to doing it.
As a developer, i'm extremely jealous. I've actually made something somewhat similar[0] with a physical keyboard because the idea of a set of keys that I can have do useful stuff is such a nice idea.
I would love it if not only was that set of buttons on my laptop, but that it was programmable and customizable per application (half of the keys on that keyboard only work in my IDE)
It might not be for you, but it's not useless.
[0]http://i.imgur.com/jQ72mEA.jpg Cut me some slack on the button functions themselves, I actually don't use a lot of them and want to re-do the layout for a while to get rid of them, but just haven't gotten around to doing it.
It's a nice-to-have, but it's not a game changer, and there won't be many situations where it provides a big productivity boost over a mouse + keyboard.
I would have been much more impressed with better basic specs, and maybe a new separate keyboard with touchbar/trackpad features.
A keyboard with OLED keycaps would be awesome for creative applications and for developers, because you could see a full set of functions at the same time, and you could set them up to switch automatically as you switched applications.
I would have been much more impressed with better basic specs, and maybe a new separate keyboard with touchbar/trackpad features.
A keyboard with OLED keycaps would be awesome for creative applications and for developers, because you could see a full set of functions at the same time, and you could set them up to switch automatically as you switched applications.
Trickle down market segmentation is hardly a new invention. Leaving the conventional keys to the more expensive model would be like setting up billboards that say "we invented this fancy new thing, unfortunately it's a downgrade from what we had before".
Apple built a new MacBook Pro keyboard without the Touch Bar for the low-end 13" version, so they theoretically could put that on their higher-end versions too. Maybe they should make the Touch Bar a no-cost CTO option for all MacBook Pro versions.
I commented on that before, but should I feel bad because I don't touch type the function keys ? I just can't believe that everybody here just touch type the screen brightness increase. Especially considering that those keys don't even map to the same function keys on all MacBook or external keyboards.
Also, do people really use the regular function keys in anger ? In my java IDE the only more or less common shortcuts on the function keys are the debugger run and step over/through. Those are used in "read mode" rather than "type mode" and I would think that a proper row of debug related custom button on the keyboard would rather be an improvement compared to remembering which of F7 or F8 step into the next line. And that's it, I don't use them at all in any other application, especially not in the terminal, text editor, browser, mail applications, ...
Is the HN demographic really that much more sophisticated than me, or is it simply overblowing the issue in a similar fashion that allegedly no "real power user" would get over the loss of Blackberry physical buttons.
Ironically, a few years back, as a proper power user touch typing function keys on a mechanical keyboard (windows use and abuse function keys for about everything), my choice of mechanical keyboard included those function keys and that was seen as a weakness by the "real pro user" of the time that never left the home row and were very proud showing off their happy hacking keyboard professional.
edit: Just to avoid confusion, I touch type. Just not the function keys.
Also, do people really use the regular function keys in anger ? In my java IDE the only more or less common shortcuts on the function keys are the debugger run and step over/through. Those are used in "read mode" rather than "type mode" and I would think that a proper row of debug related custom button on the keyboard would rather be an improvement compared to remembering which of F7 or F8 step into the next line. And that's it, I don't use them at all in any other application, especially not in the terminal, text editor, browser, mail applications, ...
Is the HN demographic really that much more sophisticated than me, or is it simply overblowing the issue in a similar fashion that allegedly no "real power user" would get over the loss of Blackberry physical buttons.
Ironically, a few years back, as a proper power user touch typing function keys on a mechanical keyboard (windows use and abuse function keys for about everything), my choice of mechanical keyboard included those function keys and that was seen as a weakness by the "real pro user" of the time that never left the home row and were very proud showing off their happy hacking keyboard professional.
edit: Just to avoid confusion, I touch type. Just not the function keys.
"Most people are not touch-typists"
Is this still really true? I thought that touch-typing is pretty much a mandatory educational requirement in large parts of the developed world, including the United States.
Is this still really true? I thought that touch-typing is pretty much a mandatory educational requirement in large parts of the developed world, including the United States.
Interesting! Unless I'm totally wrong, it isn't mandatory in the UK at least, and I hardly know anyone who can touch-type properly here, relatively few people who can type fast and accurately, and almost no one outside of tech who can type without looking at the keyboard.
I was forced to learn to touch-type properly by an older sibling when I was about 8; a quarter of a century or so later, I never look at the keyboard and can do ~120wpm if I put my mind to it (some keyboards are better than others, admittedly), though I feel like my accuracy isn't perhaps what it once was (maybe due to less practice? I spend more time talking to clients and less time typing these days...). Get 'em while they're young, I say.
I was forced to learn to touch-type properly by an older sibling when I was about 8; a quarter of a century or so later, I never look at the keyboard and can do ~120wpm if I put my mind to it (some keyboards are better than others, admittedly), though I feel like my accuracy isn't perhaps what it once was (maybe due to less practice? I spend more time talking to clients and less time typing these days...). Get 'em while they're young, I say.
I had to change my layout to dvorak to learn to touch-type. Also, not mandatory in Spain and most of E.U.
That's how I learned as well. Turns out it's very comfortable once you're used to it though. I've never gone back to QWERTY since then.
I would have to ask - how many people would spend the extra money on a "pro" version of a laptop are not touch typists? The intersection seems minimal.
Not to mention, touch typing has been taught in schools for years. I took a class in it and I am in my late 30's. My niece has taken such a class and is still a freshman in High School.
Not to mention, touch typing has been taught in schools for years. I took a class in it and I am in my late 30's. My niece has taken such a class and is still a freshman in High School.
Photographers and graphic artists? They probably touch type, but might find the "context menu" aspect of the touchbar compelling?
I agree that this is easily forgotten in the HN bubble. Sure, vi enthusiasts should be very upset that the escape key isn't real anymore, but for people like my parents or even younger cousins who don't touch type all that well, having a dynamic context menu right there on a keyboard that they're already looking at is fantastic. I'm interested to know if Apple ever kept stats on how often people would use the volume keys, for example, versus using the menubar control. I like to pretend that they use data to make decisions like this, but this Touch Bar still feels like a "look what we can do" move.
Which is why those features should be put in the non-pro models. Your parents can buy a Macbook or even an iPad. The main complaint I'm seeing, and the reason I'm likely moving back to Windows for my primary device is that there is no Pro model of the Macbook anymore.
I feel like this is trying to create a positive story out of a rather big disappointment.
Because if we were really pandering to this wide audience then we'd be enabling touch. 2-year old children can navigate touch-native interfaces (so long as there are no context switches), but a secondary input method is beyond them.
And having become accustomed to having touch everywhere, I cannot count the times I find it more expedient to point or draw on the screen (even from home row type position to a laptop) rather than switch to the touchpad.
Because if we were really pandering to this wide audience then we'd be enabling touch. 2-year old children can navigate touch-native interfaces (so long as there are no context switches), but a secondary input method is beyond them.
And having become accustomed to having touch everywhere, I cannot count the times I find it more expedient to point or draw on the screen (even from home row type position to a laptop) rather than switch to the touchpad.
Exactly this. I think what most people forget is that they are primarily targeting the new generation of kids growing up. The kids that are growing up with iPhones as their first cellphones, iPads as their first tablet and Macs as their first computers. That's what Apple wants.
Kids these days are use to the whole idea of multitouch. See how many 15-16 year olds going into college know what a SD card or a USB drive is. Kids in high school are provided with chromebooks. They don't even know what .doc extension types are. It's a different time and they are targeting those kids.
Kids these days are use to the whole idea of multitouch. See how many 15-16 year olds going into college know what a SD card or a USB drive is. Kids in high school are provided with chromebooks. They don't even know what .doc extension types are. It's a different time and they are targeting those kids.
>See how many 15-16 year olds going into college know what a SD card or a USB drive is
Are you guessing that they won't? Phones and game systems still use SD cards and usb drives. Any kid that has a 3DS or a Wii U probably knows what an SD card is, or at the very least has seen one and knows how to use it. Flash drives are still commonly used (not sure what makes you think they aren't, have you tried to share a 5gb+ file with someone who is right beside you?)
You're being pretty unfair to those 15-16 year olds you're talking about. They're not stupid.
Are you guessing that they won't? Phones and game systems still use SD cards and usb drives. Any kid that has a 3DS or a Wii U probably knows what an SD card is, or at the very least has seen one and knows how to use it. Flash drives are still commonly used (not sure what makes you think they aren't, have you tried to share a 5gb+ file with someone who is right beside you?)
You're being pretty unfair to those 15-16 year olds you're talking about. They're not stupid.
Apologies, disclaimer, I work with kids. I'm not saying all of them don't know it. Just as there are 9 year old developers, I'm sure there are plenty of kids who know about SD cards. What I was talking about was the general population though.
To put it in perspective the first iPhone came out in 2007. A 15 year old now was 6 at that time; that's first grade. iPads came out in 2010. They were 9, fourth grade.
To put it in perspective the first iPhone came out in 2007. A 15 year old now was 6 at that time; that's first grade. iPads came out in 2010. They were 9, fourth grade.
I think you're overestimating the younger generation's exposure to technology. The Wii U and 3DS haven't really been the blockbuster sellers that previous game consoles have been, and really have not made it that deep into pop culture. Gamers will have them, but most teenagers are content playing on their phones. Most of them being iPhones, but even Android not all that commonly supporting (or needing) SD cards on every model.
And you're seriously misjudging how often a teenager needs to share a 5gb+ file... basically never. The days of pirating, ripping CDs, ripping DVDs and sharing them are basically over. If it's not on Netflix or Amazon, it's not worth sharing. And in the rare case, Dropbox does the trick.
Sure most teenagers are aware of flash drives and SD cards, in the same way teenagers 10 years ago were aware of floppy disks. They used them when school required them to, and haven't seen one since.
And you're seriously misjudging how often a teenager needs to share a 5gb+ file... basically never. The days of pirating, ripping CDs, ripping DVDs and sharing them are basically over. If it's not on Netflix or Amazon, it's not worth sharing. And in the rare case, Dropbox does the trick.
Sure most teenagers are aware of flash drives and SD cards, in the same way teenagers 10 years ago were aware of floppy disks. They used them when school required them to, and haven't seen one since.
No USB/HDMI though? Your USB mouse... useless. Your external USB hard drives, useless. Your wired printer, useless. Not having USB is stupid - and for what, shaving 5mm off the thickness?
Better go buy an apple mouse, a Thunder capable monitor, and a new wifi enabled printer.
Better go buy an apple mouse, a Thunder capable monitor, and a new wifi enabled printer.
Or a generic adapter to hold you over until Type C replaces the old standard
> See how many 15-16 year olds going into college know what a SD card or a USB drive is.
All of them, they are on sale on most electronic stores and big supermarkets in Germany.
> Kids in high school are provided with chromebooks.
Here zero of them know what that is.
All of them, they are on sale on most electronic stores and big supermarkets in Germany.
> Kids in high school are provided with chromebooks.
Here zero of them know what that is.
>they are on sale on most electronic stores and big supermarkets in Germany.
Yeah and they also sell cassette-to-3.5mm adapters. It doesn't mean they're exactly culturally relevant.
Yeah and they also sell cassette-to-3.5mm adapters. It doesn't mean they're exactly culturally relevant.
I think most people who use computers for a long time don't look at keyboard. It's not required to use full touch-typing discipline to just not look at keyboard.
Right, but this doesn't mean immediately that the touch bar is a good (or even novel!) idea. Other vendors have actually tried something quite similar w/out touch and had limited adoption.
I'm not convinced that a tiny slice of super-reactive real-estate is going to be anything but another menubar item fiasco for the OS. These sorts of things only scale when the ecosystem is rather limited.
And it bears repeating: if Apple really cared about this they'd make multitouch available on every screen and start retooling their OS to support it the way Win10 has.
I'm not convinced that a tiny slice of super-reactive real-estate is going to be anything but another menubar item fiasco for the OS. These sorts of things only scale when the ecosystem is rather limited.
And it bears repeating: if Apple really cared about this they'd make multitouch available on every screen and start retooling their OS to support it the way Win10 has.
Is this actually true though? I've always assumed touch typing was what the majority of people do.
Even if it isn't, I have to wonder about the cognitive load of a constantly changing control strip.
I'd say the closest analog would be the Mac menu bar, and even that works because it is largely consistent across apps.
So far the only benefit I can see is that it's a touchscreen in an ergonomically better position (although, is even this true? How much better is this than touching a bar at the bottom of the main display itself?)
Watching the DJ do stuff on that narrow strip was painful. About the only decent demo was the photoshop one, but why wouldn't photoshop not simply include similar touch controls on the screen for windows devices, which have complete touch screens
I'd say the closest analog would be the Mac menu bar, and even that works because it is largely consistent across apps.
So far the only benefit I can see is that it's a touchscreen in an ergonomically better position (although, is even this true? How much better is this than touching a bar at the bottom of the main display itself?)
Watching the DJ do stuff on that narrow strip was painful. About the only decent demo was the photoshop one, but why wouldn't photoshop not simply include similar touch controls on the screen for windows devices, which have complete touch screens
Wouldn't it make sense to become a touch typist, then? I've watched so many developers be less effective than they could be simply because they can't type!
This is actually easier said than done. I'm 58 and been a hunt and peck typist (at this point a fairly effective and fast one) all my life. I've been a developer for 30 years. I've tried several times to learn to touch-type. I can do all of the exercises, play all of the games, but I have never been able to make the leap from looking to not looking at the keyboard.
It's the gap where you still have a full-time job to do along with those expectations that I fall down. :( Maybe it's to late for me?
That aside, I have never had any problem with productivity as a developer. As a "typist", yes, but not as an author of software. It just never comes up. Do I feel less "cool" when I am in a room with people looking at me type? Hell yes. But am I actually getting things done slower? Probably some things. Typing commands, yes. I could be faster there. Typing code? Maybe.
Just adding the perspective of a long time 6 fingered typist (occasionally 7).
It's the gap where you still have a full-time job to do along with those expectations that I fall down. :( Maybe it's to late for me?
That aside, I have never had any problem with productivity as a developer. As a "typist", yes, but not as an author of software. It just never comes up. Do I feel less "cool" when I am in a room with people looking at me type? Hell yes. But am I actually getting things done slower? Probably some things. Typing commands, yes. I could be faster there. Typing code? Maybe.
Just adding the perspective of a long time 6 fingered typist (occasionally 7).
You can be a touch typist without using the strict home row and finger placement. I would actually argue that the home row concept isn't ideal for developers especially. My fingers actually rest between the keys, and I know I press keys with the "wrong" fingers (easy to notice on ergonomic keyboards), but I do not have to look at my keys and I type around 70 words per minute without feeling like I'm rushing.
I touch type around 90 WPM and never took a class on it. After years of video gaming my "home row" is resting my left hand on WASD and my right hand takes care of everything right of RFV. And like you said, ergonomic keyboards are basically unusable to me.
"I can do all of the exercises, play all of the games, but I have never been able to make the leap from looking to not looking at the keyboard."
Huh? Don't most of the exercises and games start with rule 1: "don't look at the keyboard"? "I can do all of the exercises, play all of the games, but I have never been able to make the leap from looking to not looking at the keyboard."
Huh? The exercises and games I did all start with "don't look at the keyboard"?
Find a method that starts with having you type nonsense sequences of letters on the home row (these typically start with repeats of "asdf jkl;", changing to random sequences once you got the hang of that), extends that by adding qwer and uiop, moves to words containing those letters (moving to words is essential as it trains you to do the common sequences faster), etc.
If you find you cannot not look at your fingers, place a tea towel or other light cloth over your keyboard and hands and try again.
Huh? Don't most of the exercises and games start with rule 1: "don't look at the keyboard"? "I can do all of the exercises, play all of the games, but I have never been able to make the leap from looking to not looking at the keyboard."
Huh? The exercises and games I did all start with "don't look at the keyboard"?
Find a method that starts with having you type nonsense sequences of letters on the home row (these typically start with repeats of "asdf jkl;", changing to random sequences once you got the hang of that), extends that by adding qwer and uiop, moves to words containing those letters (moving to words is essential as it trains you to do the common sequences faster), etc.
If you find you cannot not look at your fingers, place a tea towel or other light cloth over your keyboard and hands and try again.
Off topic, but it's not too late at all. What you need to do is force yourself to touch type. Typically the reason people don't make that transition is that they cannot accept the speed and accuracy loss short term to finish the training.
Resign yourself to typing with a cloth over your hands for a month or three. Plan for being a dog-slow typist. If you have been typing for 30 years, you have what you need cognitively. You just need to force yourself to perfect the final bits of the skill. You don't need more training, you don't need perfect Home Row Placement (I can do 110 and my form is a mess!), you just need to power through that horrible period.
Resign yourself to typing with a cloth over your hands for a month or three. Plan for being a dog-slow typist. If you have been typing for 30 years, you have what you need cognitively. You just need to force yourself to perfect the final bits of the skill. You don't need more training, you don't need perfect Home Row Placement (I can do 110 and my form is a mess!), you just need to power through that horrible period.
Understood and thanks for the encouragement.
I haven't completely given up hope. I may still do it yet! :D
I haven't completely given up hope. I may still do it yet! :D
That was me! Well, I could type, but not properly. Got all the way through graduate school and well into my career before deciding to change. Wrote about this a few years ago at https://rietta.com/blog/2014/02/14/my-touch-typing-journey-c.... I now touch type Dvorak 100% of the time; even with all the punctuation that we use in programming. I've flirted with Programmer's Dvorak a few times, but have not taken the plunge.
It would, if your professional life depends on typing. Many people's do not.
There are many kitchen tools being marketed to casual home cooks, and not professional chefs. The solution isn't for everyone to become a professional chef to stop those products coming to market, it's for professional chefs to recognise those products are not meant for them. Even if the manufacturer used to tailor to their needs before, markets change.
There are many kitchen tools being marketed to casual home cooks, and not professional chefs. The solution isn't for everyone to become a professional chef to stop those products coming to market, it's for professional chefs to recognise those products are not meant for them. Even if the manufacturer used to tailor to their needs before, markets change.
It's a great thing for everyone, developer or not, professional or not.
My sister's boss at her first internship took her to her desktop and gave her a keyboard which had absolutely no markings on it. Her first task was to force herself to learn to touch type.
And she still credits that to saving so many hours in college, simply while typing out esssays, and has obviously been tremendously useful in her professional life.
My sister's boss at her first internship took her to her desktop and gave her a keyboard which had absolutely no markings on it. Her first task was to force herself to learn to touch type.
And she still credits that to saving so many hours in college, simply while typing out esssays, and has obviously been tremendously useful in her professional life.
While typing speed helps, I don't know if the reduction in effectiveness is significant.
I spend much more time thinking about what I'm going to code than I do typing it out.
I spend much more time thinking about what I'm going to code than I do typing it out.
Shhh, one should not have to learn how to use their tools.
I could understand skepticism of this before they announced and demoed it, but after? I was really impressed by the thought and detailed work that went into it. It seems super, super useful to me. Definitely much more useful than a row of function keys I rarely interact with. I don't understand the disappointment with it. It's not "shiny" bullshit.
I don't get this backlash. I'm a developer. I touch type since 20 years back. I haven't used the F-keys in probably just as long. At this point, all I do with those keys is raise/lower the volume/screen brightness.
The only key I'll miss is ESC, but I'm sure I'll figure out how to survive.
The only key I'll miss is ESC, but I'm sure I'll figure out how to survive.
> I haven't used the F-keys in probably just as long. At this point, all I do with those keys is raise/lower the volume/screen brightness.
This... puzzles me. Admittedly I spend most of my personal time in linux, and professional time in windows, but I never have enough keys for shortcuts. Like.. I'm up to binding ctrl-shift-* and ctrl-alt-*
Is macOS not very able to be keyboard driven? Or is that personal preference?
This... puzzles me. Admittedly I spend most of my personal time in linux, and professional time in windows, but I never have enough keys for shortcuts. Like.. I'm up to binding ctrl-shift-* and ctrl-alt-*
Is macOS not very able to be keyboard driven? Or is that personal preference?
(FWIW macOS can be keyboard driven as much as Windows can. I used a macbook pro with a broken touchpad as my primary computer for about 18 months since it otherwise worked fine. But like other commenters I have never used the "F" keys except for the printed functions of changing keyboard and screen brightness, and volume. I don't even know what those other keys do.)
The big lesson here is that other peoples' mileage may vary, and Apple knows that people who touch type function keys and/or use vi on MacBooks are a sufficiently small market that they can simply be served by mapping caps lock (likely a key they don't use either).
In fact come to think of it, caps lock is a perfect example: it's clearly not there for developers, yet nobody complains about the waste of having it on the keyboard. There are enough people who use it to leave it around.
The big lesson here is that other peoples' mileage may vary, and Apple knows that people who touch type function keys and/or use vi on MacBooks are a sufficiently small market that they can simply be served by mapping caps lock (likely a key they don't use either).
In fact come to think of it, caps lock is a perfect example: it's clearly not there for developers, yet nobody complains about the waste of having it on the keyboard. There are enough people who use it to leave it around.
By default, the function keys on MacBooks are bound to alternate functions; the F1/F2 keys adjust the brightness, F11/F12 volume, etc. You have to hold down the `fn` key to actually press F1, F2, etc. This makes them a bit less convenient than on Windows laptops.
That's the default on every windows laptop I've used in the past decade as well. Laptop manufacturers realized a long time ago that volume and screen brightness are more important to the average consumer.
Or you put them in default F-key mode and use Fn to do those secondary functions instead. My keyboard has F-keys that act as F-keys so I can use them while debugging and such.
You can inverse it though.
I'd say most of my time is spent in macOS, with perhaps a third of it spent in Windows. I don't really use F-keys in windows either. It seems these days the typical key mappings in Windows and macOS are essentially the same – Cmd+W closes a window on macOS, Ctrl+W does the same in windows. Perhaps the only time I use F-keys in windows is Alt+F4 to close an application, but even that just doesn't happen very often since closing the last window typically closes the application.
On macOS I use the keyboard for almost everything, but off hand I don't know a single key binding relying on F-keys. They're always Cmd[+Shift][+Alt]+Alphanum more or less.
On macOS I use the keyboard for almost everything, but off hand I don't know a single key binding relying on F-keys. They're always Cmd[+Shift][+Alt]+Alphanum more or less.
> Ctrl+W does the same in windows
No, it doesn't. Ctrl+W isn't a general shortcut on Windows. A number of programs have adopted it to close windows/tabs (seems to have risen to prominence after browsers started binding it), but it's not a standard binding still. e.g. It does nothing in Outlook or Notepad.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12445/windows-keybo...
No, it doesn't. Ctrl+W isn't a general shortcut on Windows. A number of programs have adopted it to close windows/tabs (seems to have risen to prominence after browsers started binding it), but it's not a standard binding still. e.g. It does nothing in Outlook or Notepad.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12445/windows-keybo...
AFAIK, command-W is a Microsoft invention. They introduced it in Word, Excel and IE for the Mac, then copied it to Office for Windows. Apple adopted it in its UI guidelines.
The "Apple Human Interface Guidelines" (1987) surely doesn't mention it (it has undo/cut/copy/paste, new/open/save, cancel and help, and plain/bold/italic/underline)
"Windows User Experience" (1999) doesn't mention it, either.
"OS X Human Interface Guidelines" (2015) does mention it (aside: I find it good to see that the online version already has a section on the Touch Bar (https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Us...). It also has a new name: macOS Human Interface Guidelines)
The "Apple Human Interface Guidelines" (1987) surely doesn't mention it (it has undo/cut/copy/paste, new/open/save, cancel and help, and plain/bold/italic/underline)
"Windows User Experience" (1999) doesn't mention it, either.
"OS X Human Interface Guidelines" (2015) does mention it (aside: I find it good to see that the online version already has a section on the Touch Bar (https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Us...). It also has a new name: macOS Human Interface Guidelines)
Oh, interesting – I learned something today, thanks! All applications I use support this, so I just assumed it was generally available.
macOS applications use other shortcuts for things where Linux applications use function keys. For example in Chrome:
Refresh Webbrowser - F5 - CMD+R
Close Tab - Alt+F4 or CTRL+W - CMD+W
By default most function keys don't even work as regular function keys in macOS unless you use fn+F1. They are mapped to OS related stuff like brightness, play/skip and volume.
Refresh Webbrowser - F5 - CMD+R
Close Tab - Alt+F4 or CTRL+W - CMD+W
By default most function keys don't even work as regular function keys in macOS unless you use fn+F1. They are mapped to OS related stuff like brightness, play/skip and volume.
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As a developer you've never debugged and use the F-keys?
Actually, never. Most of my work is in Xcode, though I do some Android Studio, PyCharm, and, if I have to, command-line gdb. As a developer working on a Mac for almost 10 years, I genuinely can't recall the last time I ever used a function key.
I have, but I mostly stopped using IDEs years ago. I use Sublime for pretty much any editing, and most of the time use tracing and look at logs to debug. I don't find stepping through execution with a debugger is my first method of choice when debugging, but when it comes to that the tools I use these days (such as gdb or the node debugger) don't use F-keys for stepping, but rather has interactive commands like `next` or `continue`, or `n` and `c` for short. I find that more useful than F9 or whatever might be the "typical" key is for "step next" – I can never remember.
I've also been on a Mac for years, and to get to the "usual" F-key behavior you have to hit fn+F<n> to get to whatever you wanted to do, otherwise they are mapped to things like volume or brightness control. I can't remember the last time I hit fn+F<n>.
I've also been on a Mac for years, and to get to the "usual" F-key behavior you have to hit fn+F<n> to get to whatever you wanted to do, otherwise they are mapped to things like volume or brightness control. I can't remember the last time I hit fn+F<n>.
I do touch type. I do use the F keys with my IDE. I do not touch type the F keys.
I've basically never used the F-keys. Are you using them in an IDE?
Most (all?) GUI debuggers either in IDEs or browser dev tools use F-keys to step through code.
Fair. I'm pretty click oriented in IntelliJ IDEA, and chrome devtools. I guess if I used IntelliJ more, I'd learn the F-key shortcuts, but I have an external keyboard for most typing, so I still wouldn't miss them on the laptop keyboard... and if I did, I'd just map some virtual buttons. Debugging is slow and deliberate for me, I don't need to touch type for that(personally).
The F buttons aren't going away, just the physical keys are.
Personally, I find the idea of a customizable, context aware, not-just-buttons, function row very interesting.
Personally, I find the idea of a customizable, context aware, not-just-buttons, function row very interesting.
^[ is the keyboard escape sequence for ESC, I even prefer using it on keyboards with ESC keys since it's less of a reach. It's really nice for vim and evil-mode.
I've had `jj` bound to ESC for several years now, and I know lots of people who use `jk` or `fj` too. Hitting `jj` is super quick and barely requires movement, but I've always hated the small delay after typing a `j` (while it listens for another `j` to complete the chord). I may have to retrain myself to use ^[ instead.
I'm thinking since the new Macs still have the fn key I might just remap that to Esc – I never use it anyway.
My problem with it is that my current work setup involves a keyboard, a mouse, and two monitors that are plugged into the laptop that sits to the side. My laptop monitor is used for company email and messaging. The TouchBar would almost be out of easy reach and would not be useful to me in any way. I would have to wonder how many people are in a similar situation.
I guess they could offer an external keyboard with the TouchBar and I could use that.
I guess they could offer an external keyboard with the TouchBar and I could use that.
Yes, how the touch bar will work when the focused application is in full screen in a second monitor is anyone's guess...
Why would that make any difference?
It wouldn't if you are still using the keyboard on the laptop.
Makes me wonder how common it is for someone to use a second monitor off the laptop but still use the laptop's keyboard and trackpad.
Makes me wonder how common it is for someone to use a second monitor off the laptop but still use the laptop's keyboard and trackpad.
Maybe I didn't understand his remark. Obviously if you don't use the touchbar it doesn't work. And if you don't use the trackpad it doesn't work, etc.
I'm still convinced this is an excuse to bring Touch ID to a Mac, and to allow for more secure login. I don't think the Touch Bar is useful for people who are already adept at not looking at their keyboard. But who knows...
I was under the impression that Touch ID is actually less secure than a sufficiently complex passcode/phrase. It's certainly easier to find a good fingerprint from someone than it is to read their mind and extract a password.
Security measures are defined around threat models. People worried about the government getting access to their electronics probably won't rely on Touch ID. People worried about their stoner roommate using their machine can probably rely on Touch ID.
Especially since a password can't be forced out of you by the government, but they can force you to touch your phone. Touch ID is not protected by the Fifth Amendment, apparently.
I agree; I just like to remind folks of that fact :)
The flip side is that entering a strong password is tedious and incentivizes people to use shorter, easier to type passwords or disable / increase the time delay for things like their screensaver locks.
That means that the question is really whether Touch ID is more secure than the passwords which people will actually use in practice. As criddell noted, how you answer that is going to come down to threat models and resources. Biometrics really put you into some pretty different trade-offs: e.g. a camera can record you typing in your password but not your fingerprint, but someone can force you to touch the sensor or maybe pull it off of a glass, a password can be faked safely while someone watches you but that fake fingerprint is much riskier, etc.
That means that the question is really whether Touch ID is more secure than the passwords which people will actually use in practice. As criddell noted, how you answer that is going to come down to threat models and resources. Biometrics really put you into some pretty different trade-offs: e.g. a camera can record you typing in your password but not your fingerprint, but someone can force you to touch the sensor or maybe pull it off of a glass, a password can be faked safely while someone watches you but that fake fingerprint is much riskier, etc.
Watching the apple event and the various demos of the touch bar reminded me of this onion video from 2009: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA
I really needed a macbook upgrade (I've been using the same machine since 2008), but I have a feeling that the touch bar will fail and be removed in the next generation of macbooks. But buying the macbook without the touch bar means settling for lesser specs (and given that I'm thinking about buying a machine that would last me another 8 years it feels like a bad choice).
I really needed a macbook upgrade (I've been using the same machine since 2008), but I have a feeling that the touch bar will fail and be removed in the next generation of macbooks. But buying the macbook without the touch bar means settling for lesser specs (and given that I'm thinking about buying a machine that would last me another 8 years it feels like a bad choice).
Buy a Apple Refurbished MacBook Pro from last generation. Get the discount and the warranty that way. And don't worry about it for 4 years.
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
After a lot of debate and research, I bought the Fall 2013 MBP from Apple refurbished in the middle of 2014. They do an incredible job refurbishing, to the point where there was no way you could tell it was a used device other than it arriving in a nondescript box. Plus, I saved something like $400 off the price of what was still the latest model at the time.
In the past two and a half years the only "problem" I've had is that one of the rubber feet came off. It's still got more than enough power for the foreseeable future as well. Definitely recommended.
After a lot of debate and research, I bought the Fall 2013 MBP from Apple refurbished in the middle of 2014. They do an incredible job refurbishing, to the point where there was no way you could tell it was a used device other than it arriving in a nondescript box. Plus, I saved something like $400 off the price of what was still the latest model at the time.
In the past two and a half years the only "problem" I've had is that one of the rubber feet came off. It's still got more than enough power for the foreseeable future as well. Definitely recommended.
Thanks, this actually sounds like the best compromise.
If you don't need retina and you want a 15" screen, I'd hunt down a 2012 15" MBP with a 1680x1050 screen. It's the last generation where you could make upgrades with commodity parts. You can even pull out the optical and stick in a second sata drive (but it will kill your battery). The i7 quad cores on those models still hold their own today.
I don't see the big deal with looking at it. It's right below the bottom of the monitor.
The following is opinion only.
You lose efficiency when redirecting your vision from the screen to the keyboard.
It's the same problem with touchscreens - mouse and keyboard operate on the same plane of motion. By touching the screen, you're breaking that plane. Additionally, you have to use cognitive resources to actually locate the button on the screen, rather than muscle memory, since there is no feedback of any sort from touching the screen.
The new Surface from MS actually does it right by re-orienting the work plane from vertical to horizontal, because the types of work you do in each orientation are different.
You lose efficiency when redirecting your vision from the screen to the keyboard.
It's the same problem with touchscreens - mouse and keyboard operate on the same plane of motion. By touching the screen, you're breaking that plane. Additionally, you have to use cognitive resources to actually locate the button on the screen, rather than muscle memory, since there is no feedback of any sort from touching the screen.
The new Surface from MS actually does it right by re-orienting the work plane from vertical to horizontal, because the types of work you do in each orientation are different.
The keyboard in general, yes. But a strip at the very top of the keyboard, just below the monitor? It's nearly the same as redirecting your vision to the bottom of the screen. It's not the same as looking at the home row to find the H key or whatever.
Perhaps, but it still requires cognitive resources to locate the area you need to touch. With physical keys, you could rely on muscle memory and touch to delineate the proper key.
Now, it's just a smooth strip that you cannot discern one part of from another solely by touch.
Now, it's just a smooth strip that you cannot discern one part of from another solely by touch.
I agree with that. Guiding your fingers by sight rather than by feel is not as good. I don't think it's because you're redirecting your vision, since it's not moving much, but the lack of tactile feedback is still problematic.
I see it as a stepping stone to the touch bar becoming the keyboard. You then have a laptop with no moving parts at all (except the lid hinge I guess).
Obviously yeah, you want tactile feedback and etc etc etc to make it real (don't know if the Taptic gizmo is the right path), but you're one bit closer to the goal with this.
Obviously yeah, you want tactile feedback and etc etc etc to make it real (don't know if the Taptic gizmo is the right path), but you're one bit closer to the goal with this.
Good god that sounds like a nightmare. Its already a pain to use touch-pads on some laptop models where if you rest your wrist on it it will detect it wrong.
And to make matters even worse imagine installing drivers for an os not supported by the manufacturer.
And to make matters even worse imagine installing drivers for an os not supported by the manufacturer.
That is a nightmare. I already have a hard enough time typing on the MacBook Pro's keyboard. I use an external mechanical most of the time except when I am away from my desk. I just about get all my real work done at my desk though.
> Its already a pain to use touch-pads on some laptop models where if you rest your wrist on it it will detect it wrong.
To switch topics to another new "feature", this was my first thought about the 2x-larger touchpad on the new 15" mbp.
To switch topics to another new "feature", this was my first thought about the 2x-larger touchpad on the new 15" mbp.
Yeah I'm not saying it's a good thing, but considering how Apple keeps trying to make the keyboard thinner and thinner this seems like the logical conclusion.
Instead of moving a mouse cursor to a toolbar item you can just tap something without repositioning your hand. It's not as fast as someone who has mastered every key combo, but for regular users it should increase productivity.
It's the very same as the contextual ribbon navigation that Microsoft is using but above the keyboard instead of at the top of the screen.
May be for first few days, but you should get used to the available buttons for apps you use right?
Very clever. Basically seems to allow the continuity, notification sharing, proximity and Apple Pay features of an Apple Watch or iPhone by slapping what is effectively an Apple Watch right into the chassis. Very little new functionality would have to be written into the OS, because it doesn't have to know about the extra control surface features, it can just pass messages a'la handoff/continuity.
I would imagine this means writing TouchBar (autocorrect on my iPhone hasn't learned that one yet) support into MacOS apps means developing a watchOS extension to bundle with the app, which seems really simple and elegant.
Really makes me wonder if writing similar extensions to macOS that use a secondary control/presentation surface could be that easy. Why not let me write an extension that opens on my iPad when my macOS app is opened to show additional shortcuts/controls for that app? There are a few remote tools that can do some of this (BTT Remote and Alfred Remote come to mind as possible configurable remote control surfaces) but if I was able able to write a purpose-built control surface with bundles for TouchBar, iPhone, iPad and/or Apple Watch, all detected by proximity and using handoff to advertise readiness... that would be amazing.
I would imagine this means writing TouchBar (autocorrect on my iPhone hasn't learned that one yet) support into MacOS apps means developing a watchOS extension to bundle with the app, which seems really simple and elegant.
Really makes me wonder if writing similar extensions to macOS that use a secondary control/presentation surface could be that easy. Why not let me write an extension that opens on my iPad when my macOS app is opened to show additional shortcuts/controls for that app? There are a few remote tools that can do some of this (BTT Remote and Alfred Remote come to mind as possible configurable remote control surfaces) but if I was able able to write a purpose-built control surface with bundles for TouchBar, iPhone, iPad and/or Apple Watch, all detected by proximity and using handoff to advertise readiness... that would be amazing.
> I would imagine this means writing TouchBar (autocorrect on my iPhone hasn't learned that one yet) support into MacOS apps means developing a watchOS extension to bundle with the app, which seems really simple and elegant.
Nope. Apps customize the Touch Bar using AppKit inside their app's code; there's no third-party code running on the Touch Bar's processor at any point. The Touch Bar has a little bit of intelligence (it's responsible for the Touch ID and Apple Pay UIs, and supposedly can display traditional function keys independent of the OS for use in dual-boot situations), but it appears to be mostly just receiving and displaying a framebuffer that's rendered and provided to it by the host machine, then forwarding touch events back to the host machine for interaction with the UI.
Nope. Apps customize the Touch Bar using AppKit inside their app's code; there's no third-party code running on the Touch Bar's processor at any point. The Touch Bar has a little bit of intelligence (it's responsible for the Touch ID and Apple Pay UIs, and supposedly can display traditional function keys independent of the OS for use in dual-boot situations), but it appears to be mostly just receiving and displaying a framebuffer that's rendered and provided to it by the host machine, then forwarding touch events back to the host machine for interaction with the UI.
> Very clever. Basically seems to allow the continuity, notification sharing, proximity and Apple Pay features of an Apple Watch or iPhone by slapping what is effectively an Apple Watch right into the chassis. Very little new functionality would have to be written into the OS, because it doesn't have to know about the extra control surface features, it can just pass messages a'la handoff/continuity.
Interesting viewpoint that makes me reconsider my thoughts on the Touch Bar. Thanks for writing this comment.
Interesting viewpoint that makes me reconsider my thoughts on the Touch Bar. Thanks for writing this comment.
Just thinking how awesome that would be for sequencing software, photoshop, 3D rendering software etc! I'm pretty excited about the Touch Bar, new screen and battery life...
So I'm an unfortunate fellow that runs Ubuntu on a Macbook Pro. If I'm lucky, this means I should be able to get the touch bar working in Ubuntu, right? Since it's just framed data over USB, it shouldn't be that hard to reverse engineer, right?
My first reaction when I saw the touch bar was "Ugh this is going to cause a world of headaches when runnning Ubuntu". I was relieved to see you can still get a MBP with physical function keys[1]. (semi-off topic: any Linux users want to chime in and recommend a 14" or 15" laptop with build quality similar to a MBP?)
[1] http://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MJL...
edit: thanks to everyone for the recommendations!
edit 2: there's some more recommendations here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12815183
[1] http://www.apple.com/ca/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MJL...
edit: thanks to everyone for the recommendations!
edit 2: there's some more recommendations here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12815183
Dell XPS 15. It has great build quality, a 4k screen option, 4 core CPU option and a touchscreen option.
I'm quite happy with mine, having switch over from the Asus line of high end ultrabooks.
I'm quite happy with mine, having switch over from the Asus line of high end ultrabooks.
I was thinking of getting one of these, but in Canada, their canned options aren't the greatest (I checked their home and small biz sites). You can't get the 4K touchscreen with the quad i7 and they don't seem to offer true BTO here any more.
It's kinda ironic to me that Apple outdoes Dell at online BTO these days.
It's kinda ironic to me that Apple outdoes Dell at online BTO these days.
That is interesting, because I purchased my XPS 15 from dell.ca with an i7, 4k touch screen, 16gb ram and 512gb ssd.
I'd consider a recently updated HP Spectre x360 with newest Kaby Lake CPU. In my opinion it's a better device than Dell XPS (XPS machines still do have very well known and annoying "coil whining" issue). Mentioned it yesterday in Makbooks related topic https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12808431
See details http://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/Laptops/spectre-x360-211501--1 and video review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZLEm3o9R5A and another one http://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-Spectre-x360-13-w023dx-Conve...
Also take a look at the Acer TravelMate P648 http://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-TravelMate-P648-M-757N-Not... Though it's more like a solid working laptop than a fancy Macbooks competitor, but looks like a good device.
See details http://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/Laptops/spectre-x360-211501--1 and video review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZLEm3o9R5A and another one http://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-Spectre-x360-13-w023dx-Conve...
Also take a look at the Acer TravelMate P648 http://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-TravelMate-P648-M-757N-Not... Though it's more like a solid working laptop than a fancy Macbooks competitor, but looks like a good device.
System76 has a variety of options that ship with Ubuntu:
https://system76.com/laptops
Never heard of these. Thanks for the link! Definitely looks very promising.
Many people, myself included, love the Dell XPS 13.
If only Dell would add some keys to that keyboard! Just an extra column at right with Del / Home / PgUp / PgDn / End would make it so much more comfortable. Why copy Apple and remove things many users like?
The XPS 13 Ubuntu version seems to not be available. Does anyone know what's up? I tried to do a comparison yesterday with the new Macbooks and wasn't able to. The Windows version is still available.
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd
You can find it on this page:
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd
The most straightforward way is to select "Ubuntu" as the "Operating System" filter at the top of the models list.
Outside the US you should follow the links in this article:
https://bartongeorge.io/2016/10/04/the-new-xps-13-developer-...
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd
The most straightforward way is to select "Ubuntu" as the "Operating System" filter at the top of the models list.
Outside the US you should follow the links in this article:
https://bartongeorge.io/2016/10/04/the-new-xps-13-developer-...
Here you go: http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd?3x_n...
You have to use the normal XPS 13 page and choose Ubuntu from the OS filter.
You have to use the normal XPS 13 page and choose Ubuntu from the OS filter.
Thanks, not sure what up with that other page. As I feared, Dell still only offer the standard def screen on the lowest end model. I do not want a touch screen and I do not want the high dpi screen, if only for the extra power required. Why Dell thinks the high-end screen is desirable on a developer laptop is beyond me.
Every time I go to the Dell website I curse how difficult it is to navigate.
I really want a 1920x1200 matte screen option...
I really want a 1920x1200 matte screen option...
I really like the sounds of the XPS 13 but I'm really wary of going to a 13" screen. I currently use a 17" MBP...
X1 Carbon is also pretty good. I miss previous generation Thinkpad keyboards, but I reckon the island one looks good and feels great on the X1C.
No Thunderbolt 3 support, not even a single port, right? Lenova is outsider on the market having no TB3 support.
So was Apple yesterday.
Agree, presented Apple laptops look more like mediocre devices.
I was looking at that model last night, and it appears to come with max 8GB of memory. Which seems like a complete non-starter.
Razer Blade, about the same price and look, but more black and green, and an Nvidia GPU.
Also has near perfect Linux support, only driver other than GPU that you need to install is wifi, which someone wrote a script to setup for you.
Also has near perfect Linux support, only driver other than GPU that you need to install is wifi, which someone wrote a script to setup for you.
Note that the version with function keys has a 2.0 GHz processor and 1866 MHz RAM, compared to the base touchbar configuration with 2.9 GHz and 2133 MHz.
You can configure it up to a 2.4 GHz i7 for $300, bringing it to the same price as the 2.9 GHz i5 and touch bar. I don't know how those two processors compare.
You can configure it up to a 2.4 GHz i7 for $300, bringing it to the same price as the 2.9 GHz i5 and touch bar. I don't know how those two processors compare.
Looking closer, I'm pretty sure that the non-TouchBar model is just the previous model.
It has the 4th gen processors where the TouchBar models have 6th gen processors. The non-TouchBar model also still has the "smaller" touchpad and the same ports & layout as the previous models. The body itself even has the same finish as the older model. So yeah, I'm pretty sure it's just the previous model.
It has the 4th gen processors where the TouchBar models have 6th gen processors. The non-TouchBar model also still has the "smaller" touchpad and the same ports & layout as the previous models. The body itself even has the same finish as the older model. So yeah, I'm pretty sure it's just the previous model.
Not sure where you're looking, the non-touchbar model is physically identical to the touchbar except that it has a function key row and two less ports. Definitely the new model, it's the same thickness, same screen, same trackpad. See the tech specs if you want to confirm: http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/
Pardon. I was looking at the 15", which doesn't offer a non-Touch Bar model:
http://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MJLQ2L...
At the time, I wasn't aware that there was a new 13" non-touchbar model.
http://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MJLQ2L...
At the time, I wasn't aware that there was a new 13" non-touchbar model.
The non-touchbar model also has a 5kwh larger battery.
Not a bad deal for $200 cheaper.
Not a bad deal for $200 cheaper.
I am duel booting ubuntu 16.04 and Windows 8 on my asus ROG-G501VW
Fantastic laptop with some amazing specs. The price was just right. https://www.asus.com/ROG-Republic-Of-Gamers/ROG-G501VW/
The only problem I have with it is the battery life. I am using this for around 5 months now, and the battery life when running Ubuntu is 2-3 hours only. I installed ubuntu on the ssd and windows on the hdd.
I can play almost any game on this one (of course not many on ultra).
Fantastic laptop with some amazing specs. The price was just right. https://www.asus.com/ROG-Republic-Of-Gamers/ROG-G501VW/
The only problem I have with it is the battery life. I am using this for around 5 months now, and the battery life when running Ubuntu is 2-3 hours only. I installed ubuntu on the ssd and windows on the hdd.
I can play almost any game on this one (of course not many on ultra).
Looks nice but no way can I live with that battery life.
I am running Debian on my Thinkpad T460. Works great.
Since the Touch Bar is essentially separate from macOS, running its own pseudo-OS, it will work in other OS'es like Windows and Linux just fine. You'll just have a static function row and no context-relevant buttons.
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Touch Bar is cool but it seems like a solution in search of a problem..
You think remembering all function keys for every program is not a problem? Some remarks really amaze me.
You use function keys for repetitive tasks, if you don't repeat it enough to worry about, then it is a non-issue.
Discoverability for the common consumer is the problem this is solving, plain and simple.
The touch bar is instantly recognizable and serves as a status symbol, which is important for part of Apple's demographic. This is not sarcasm, just stating a fact.
Apple is unifying their operating systems.
Apple has always wanted to be a closed system. In the beginning, Jobs made the Macintosh, the first computer he was truly charged with designing, a closed system. Literally. The case needed a special precision screw bit to open. Next, the original iPhone was so closed that it didn't even have an app store.
Now Apple starts moving more and more code execution to Ring-0, on the newly rebranded macOS. macOS, iOS, watchOS... And now the inclusion of watchOS within the Macbook Pro. They're all trending toward the same goal: to create a unified platform across all their devices.
But what type of operating system will it be?
Recently Apple has enjoyed substantially greater ROI on devices that run restricted operating systems. I suppose they'll have a "developer" mode for creating applications, but macOS going to become a walled garden for the average consumer.
Apple has always wanted to be a closed system. In the beginning, Jobs made the Macintosh, the first computer he was truly charged with designing, a closed system. Literally. The case needed a special precision screw bit to open. Next, the original iPhone was so closed that it didn't even have an app store.
Now Apple starts moving more and more code execution to Ring-0, on the newly rebranded macOS. macOS, iOS, watchOS... And now the inclusion of watchOS within the Macbook Pro. They're all trending toward the same goal: to create a unified platform across all their devices.
But what type of operating system will it be?
Recently Apple has enjoyed substantially greater ROI on devices that run restricted operating systems. I suppose they'll have a "developer" mode for creating applications, but macOS going to become a walled garden for the average consumer.
Since iOS's inception, it has run the exact same kernel as the Mac. They developed separate UI layers for separate devices, but the underlying system has always been the same.
They do seem to be bringing the higher level components together where they can, which seems smart from a maintainability perspective.
macOS becoming a walled garden? Maybe, but it has nothing to do with them sticking a Touch Bar running a variant of watchOS on their laptop.
They do seem to be bringing the higher level components together where they can, which seems smart from a maintainability perspective.
macOS becoming a walled garden? Maybe, but it has nothing to do with them sticking a Touch Bar running a variant of watchOS on their laptop.
That actually makes a lot of sense. Since WatchOS spends most of its time syncing to other devices its a pretty natural choice. I suspect the main reason they did that was to avoid exposing the secure enclave directly to macOS.
For all the people calling this out as a hack I would counter that it is actually an example of elegant code reuse.
For all the people calling this out as a hack I would counter that it is actually an example of elegant code reuse.
Didn't some high-class Razer gaming laptop do something with little blinky / changeable icons in some keys a while ago? Just looked it up, yeah, the Blade.
That was 3 years ago.
That was 3 years ago.
Which isn't the same as a multitouch surface.
Right, I figure it's probably even better because the stress factor of pushing on little icons doesn't strike me as a wise longevity decision. Of course I'm talking about an Apple product here so I should acknowledge 'Intentional Obsolescence' as part of the business model. Basically I'm pointing out that not only did Apple not innovate something, they managed to make it (potentially) inferior for the sake of cuteness in the process.
Can you play Quake on it?
It's the perfect dimensions for a simple sidescrolling platformer, actually. I'd love to be able to play Chrome's dinosaur game on it when my internet is down, for example.
*Crysis
OP question was actually plausible, as Quake and other open-sourced ID Software games have a long history of being ported / rendered to all kinds of exotic devices by the modding community: terminals [1], oscilloscopes [2], and many others.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nRPoS2WDJA
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMli33ornEU
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nRPoS2WDJA
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMli33ornEU
Yeah it is a form of code reuse, but did they really need to add another level of software to maintain on the MacBook Pro?
It just spreads they resources thinner in my opinion with more software and compatibility to maintain. If they fail to keep their software quality high, they will lose customers and damage their brand.
It just spreads they resources thinner in my opinion with more software and compatibility to maintain. If they fail to keep their software quality high, they will lose customers and damage their brand.
Keep in mind for the touch pro haters out there. You can skip the touch bar, save $200, and get a 5kwh larger battery. They didn't cripple it, you can still get more ram, larger ssd, etc.
Maybe you can run Windows XP on it, if it is a separate chip :D
It's an ARM chip, but theoretically it's jailbreakable!
I wonder if they are going to release an external keyboard with a touch bar, since many mbp users connect their laptop to a monitor and use external keyboard
This seems kind of crazy to me. Why not just treat the touch strip as a second display? That would seem to afford a smoother integration.
The Twitter thread claims that touch input/display, touch ID, secure enclave and camera are isolated on a separate ARM SoC. Since touch ID will be used for Apple Pay, and Apple Pay will be integrated into Safari, this architecture may be harder to attack from a malicious website that is trying to obtain Apple Pay credentials. Even if macOS on x86 is compromised, there is a separate input/output system on the ARM SoC for payment credentials.
Does the touch bar shows any info when using Apple Pay ?
In the Apple demo, the touch bar showed the recipient and dollar amount of payment, requiring a fingerprint to confirm.
That would either cut down on the number of "real" displays the built-in GPU could support (right now it supports three: two external plus the built-in one) or would require including a second GPU. This is basically the "second GPU" option with the second GPU bundled as part of a co-processor that's needed anyway for handling payments and fingerprint recognition.
I guess it should be functional without an (compatible) OS present. Within the recovery screen and f keys using boot camp? Gotta have a tiny cpu + os for those.
Too bad it's not detachable. And flexible.
Also, lets not forget Apple is under some largely false pressure. We have been reading time and time again, basically since Cook in charge that real innovation stopped.
I personally think that this could be one of the factors why there is such an emphasis on what is basically just a cool feature. But nothing more.
Also, more normal would have been to be able to choose when ordering wether you want the touch bar or not.
I personally think that this could be one of the factors why there is such an emphasis on what is basically just a cool feature. But nothing more.
Also, more normal would have been to be able to choose when ordering wether you want the touch bar or not.
For it to be useful, they need 3rd party developer adoption. With it available on just one device, it's already hard enough for them. Why restrict their cool new tech to an optional status? Seems to me that Apple sees this as the future of interacting with your Mac. They are going to push it as hard as they can to drive adoption.
It is an option when you order the 13" macbook pro.
I actually want a flexible Touch Bar on my wrist instead of a watch.
the whole feature was not necessary, they could have done the same with a simple app on iPhone
Gimmick. Next question.
Ah, that explains the price tag change, its a bundle deal!
Next version touch bar takes half of the bottom, and then eventually we will just have 2 ipads. It's the beginning of the end.