Amazon sells out of the NES Classic Edition in less than a minute(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Amazon sells out of the NES Classic Edition in less than a minute
https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/11/nintendowned-amazon-sells-out-of-nes-classic-editions-in-null-seconds/
253 comments
I can confirm that this is a thing... a bigger thing than one might think. I run an IaaS cloud provider and I know off the top of my head several customers of ours who each maintain a fleet of VMs to do this for a variety of products. Eg: Limited edition shoes, show tickets, etc. Some of our customers who do this keep the VMs running and some fire them up only when needed. Some use custom software and scripts and some use purchased software designed specifically for the sites and products they want to beat others to.
Would including a CAPTCHA for items expected to sell out quickly prevent this?
Reminds me of why I still prefer brick and mortar. Yes you may have to camp out, but it definitely has a better success rate than trying to compete against machines.
> it definitely has a better success rate than trying to compete against machines.
For now... ¬_¬
For now... ¬_¬
The goal is to resell the stuff. Those traders are just gambling that the resell price is higher than the original price.
It's the first time I saw "snipers" in this context. "Sniper" is the name we use in Poland for scripts set up to bid at eBay-like auctions. They are the reason I never buy anything from an auction (where I have to bid), and I stick only to buy-now, retail offers. It's because on any auction it's guaranteed that there is always some schmuck that will outbid you by 1¢ at the last microsecond with a sniper script. Proliferation of those scripts makes auctioning a waste of attention and emotional investment.
Its a flaw in the auction design. A simple rule as the closing time will be extended by x minutes after the last bid would solve this.
Our local auction site here in New Zealand, TradeMe, does that. Any bid in the last 2 minutes resets the clock to 2 minutes. Works pretty well for the seller, as prices tend to jump dramatically in these two minutes.
There is also at least one auction site with a similar business model that is practically a legal scam; bids cost money/points, and every bid increases the price by a fixed amount and extend the clock. Non-successful bids aren't paid back, of course.
There are actually some good arguments for a cost to bid system.
In theory it encourages people to bid their true preferences rather than waste time sniping.
In theory it encourages people to bid their true preferences rather than waste time sniping.
Personally I find sniping quite enjoyable (as an idle-activity), but I also consider "recon" part of it (finding mislabelled or less widely known items that get the same job done usually results in huge effective discounts).
How do you know that people are doing this with your VMs?
Regardless of how he knows, you can also google "sneaker bot" and you'll find a vast underground that deals in this trade of scalping limited edition sneakers.
I'm surprised the customers would openly discuss it, even to their provider. The less people that know about it and do it the better I would think.
Large operations always tend to communicate with their service providers at some level.
Likewise I imagine these types of companies tend to generate some level of complaint from sellers to the provider. They are really aggressive bots that can create attack level traffic spikes, and break a sellers TOS (snicker) in some cases.
Likewise I imagine these types of companies tend to generate some level of complaint from sellers to the provider. They are really aggressive bots that can create attack level traffic spikes, and break a sellers TOS (snicker) in some cases.
Surprising or not, they do. I suppose some people may feel as you do, but many do not. Many of our customers look at us as a resource for how best to use the Infrastructure we offer as a Service and share a great deal of detail.
My question exactly. Will need to ensure I don't ever use OPs service
People call on the telephone and discuss their plans, requirements, and business models before signing up. Often, once they are customers they may discuss with us ways to optimize. We check in from time to time and often they call us about their upcoming efforts to see if we have input. Of course there are some that we don't hear from at all, but whose web site at their email domains clearly spell out their businesses.
And you talk about what they're doing on a public forum?
It's a common and well known business model. We have Web hosting companies, game servers, mobile apps, cloud-managed gizmos, SaaS platforms, etc... all are common well known business models. Do you know any more about them because of this post or the information I have talked about? Maybe you didn't know they business model exists.
do you think his equates to doxxing someone?
I should add that some sites (especially ones counting on ad revenue, or that don't want "scalpers") may consider bots hitting them as abusive and will either contact us or just block specific IPs. At that point we know what is going on. Our customer may call us because "it stopped working" when they have been blocked or rate limited. I will point out that many sites that bots hit do not care at all and know it is happening.
Ha don't jump to conclusions so quickly. We spend > $50k/mo on AWS and you better believe our solution architects deeply understand our product and architecture.
Jeez put away the pitchforks. Many providers offer support, too and therefore would have a relationship with the customer.
I didn't see any pitchforks, it was just a question.
This has been going on since the first days of ecom. It's just scripters and bots that are more easy to get ahold of now so even more people do it. But the demand is real if you look at the completed auctions! Scammers don't let the auctions complete since they have to pay fees on them. There are a shocking number of people who just don't mind paying up for something hot.
Disclosure: I did it in college for beer money - http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/17/us/sony-toy-is-less-costly...
Disclosure: I did it in college for beer money - http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/17/us/sony-toy-is-less-costly...
That's the answer.
Actually Amazon itself has listing from 3rd party sellers at crazy prices.
I was tempted to buy one, even at ~£70. Then I looked at my desk and saw my Rapsberry Pi with this case http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3D-Printed-NES-inspired-Raspberry-... and a USB NES control replica and decided to forget about the mini NES.
Actually Amazon itself has listing from 3rd party sellers at crazy prices.
I was tempted to buy one, even at ~£70. Then I looked at my desk and saw my Rapsberry Pi with this case http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3D-Printed-NES-inspired-Raspberry-... and a USB NES control replica and decided to forget about the mini NES.
Not just eBayers using bots. They are popping up on local online garage sale pages and on Craigslist for $200+, by what appears to be soccer moms for the most part.
Isn't this similar to the BF and sales throughout the season with Amazon. Items come up for sale only to be gone instantly (or what appears as such)
Nintendo has had a history of unexplainable supply shortages for in-demand items. (case in point: Amiibo)
They probably use scarcity to hype the product.
See Cialdini's Influence.
See Cialdini's Influence.
Ha .. not unexplained. I am part of a few "deals" websites. People inexplicably want to collect all of them! They have predictions on what Amibos will sell out, so people can buy 'em sooner rather than later. Lots of crazy stuff. I thought it was to make a profit but it seems there are genuine collectors out there.
Digital age Beanie Babies?
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...
I've been calling them that for years.
Also this year's Fire Emblem Limited Edition (really frustrating, the box is excellent – they are now sold for at least 2x the original price) and probably any 3DS special edition.
But consumers with too much money are also helping this "economy" with their purchase decisions. That eBay NES Classic in the parent comment was just sold for $610, more than 10x the retail price, and there are many other offerings. Just take a look at the completed listings and the prices that were paid.
But consumers with too much money are also helping this "economy" with their purchase decisions. That eBay NES Classic in the parent comment was just sold for $610, more than 10x the retail price, and there are many other offerings. Just take a look at the completed listings and the prices that were paid.
It's worth pointing out that "sold" doesn't actually mean the buyer has any intention of paying. It seems fairly common in this scenario for people to put fake bids on products like this for whatever reason. And the winner in that particular action has a 0% positive feedback rating, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
When I was in college, I resold high demand systems around the holidays. Some examples of this include the slim PS2, the Nintendo DS, and the XBox 360.
I can tell you from this experience that people pay. The bids are not joke bids. They are people who are willing to pay market rate for high demand items because they want them now. God bless them. Furthermore, you can require payment before purchase.
I can tell you from this experience that people pay. The bids are not joke bids. They are people who are willing to pay market rate for high demand items because they want them now. God bless them. Furthermore, you can require payment before purchase.
How did you get these systems ?
I did this a couple times for limited edition systems. You just have to wait in line early and get as many as the store will let you.
It's not a tremendous amount of money but if you sell a few $300 systems for 2-3x the original price and you're a college student or such, it adds up fast.
The last time I tried doing it was for the limited edition pikachu 3DS; upon seeing a line of 50+ people in Oakland (most of which probably had the same intention as me), I decided that the gain was not worth it anymore.
It's not a tremendous amount of money but if you sell a few $300 systems for 2-3x the original price and you're a college student or such, it adds up fast.
The last time I tried doing it was for the limited edition pikachu 3DS; upon seeing a line of 50+ people in Oakland (most of which probably had the same intention as me), I decided that the gain was not worth it anymore.
I recall my friends doing this for the Wii back in the day. They put in reservations at GameStop and checked daily at various stores. I'd imagine it's the same way. You just have to get lucky sometimes.
Good fortune.
While this does happen once in a while it's not as common as you make it out to be. I resold Chewbacca masks[1] during that hype for an obscene markup and everything I sold was a real transaction. I sent the masks, got paid, everyone was happy. But really, people paid and they sold fast, within the hour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_Mask_Lady
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_Mask_Lady
> It seems fairly common in this scenario for people to put fake bids on products like this for whatever reason.
One popular reason may be "boosting" the auction. A common practice is that when someone puts an item for sale as an auction, they will ask a friend to bid on that item when the auction seems to be settling on too low a price. If it happens that after one of such boosts nobody else bids and the friend ends up winning, the friend will just pick "personal collection"/"cash on delivery" as payment/delivery options and never pick the item up; the original owner will wait few days and post the item on an auction again.
One popular reason may be "boosting" the auction. A common practice is that when someone puts an item for sale as an auction, they will ask a friend to bid on that item when the auction seems to be settling on too low a price. If it happens that after one of such boosts nobody else bids and the friend ends up winning, the friend will just pick "personal collection"/"cash on delivery" as payment/delivery options and never pick the item up; the original owner will wait few days and post the item on an auction again.
Don't forget the Pokemon Go Plus which is still out of stock. https://smile.amazon.com/Nintendo-Bluetooth-Bracelet-Not-Mac...
$610 was the selling price.
Who in the world wants these so badly? I'm excited to get one... but it's not like I'm in a huge rush to play 30 year old games... If I really wanted to play them right now, I could download an emulator.
Cool points maybe? Those could have tangible value for some people. Like streamers for instance.
You can't stream the output of an emulator?
You can, but you don't get the cool points for showing off the hyped up and hard to find product.
If you had a Wii or Wii U then you can even buy 350+ games on their virtual console.
[deleted]
Makes for a good story.
I mean, how many would they have made? 2,000?
They know they can do a second run before Christmas. By then they would know if they should make 20,000 or 200,000...
I mean, how many would they have made? 2,000?
They know they can do a second run before Christmas. By then they would know if they should make 20,000 or 200,000...
Traditionally, toy companies will have a "tent pole" item they hype up and sell out of before Christmas (originally Cabbage Patch Kids but later on Elmo, Wii, etc.) This forces parents to less desirable accessory products for Christmas. Mysteriously after Christmas the tent pole item is in stock.
Eric Clark's book "The Real Toy Story" goes into the origin of this and other trends [1]. Nobody is really wild about the idea, but the industry is kind of forced into it because sales are literally all within a 3 week period. Miss it and you're dead. Tactics like the 'high demand, low availability' hot Christmas toy are a matter of survival.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Real-Toy-Story-Ruthless-Consumers/dp/...
Eric Clark's book "The Real Toy Story" goes into the origin of this and other trends [1]. Nobody is really wild about the idea, but the industry is kind of forced into it because sales are literally all within a 3 week period. Miss it and you're dead. Tactics like the 'high demand, low availability' hot Christmas toy are a matter of survival.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/Real-Toy-Story-Ruthless-Consumers/dp/...
Actually what really happens is that store managers have to decide what to stock in May, seven months before Xmas.
Source: I was manager at a large store.
Source: I was manager at a large store.
The NES classic was announced in July, though. Would retailers have been given some advance notice under an NDA, or is this an exception?
The retailers are flown to this place and treated like kids in a candy store, so they need to interact, feel, and try all new products, because a bad investment in inventory (too low or too high) will affect the store.
My best guess is that they are shown a working prototype, but for a company this huge (and protective) I don't know.
My best guess is that they are shown a working prototype, but for a company this huge (and protective) I don't know.
I'm not getting how a shortage helps the companies? (Do I have to buy your book to find out?..)
If they sell the hot item then they make only the margins for that one item. If they "sell out" of the hot item, then parents either buy an alternative (you can't just get your kid nothing for Christmas), or they buy the accessories for the hot item with a promise to get the hot item once it becomes available again. Then after Christmas, they actually get the hot item, because the kid still wants it (and their one friend who has it is really cool).
It spreads demand out over time and over their product line. Similar strategy as how airlines advertise cheap fares to get you to fly on them, but then offer upgrades, early-bird check-in, more leg-room, additional checked bags, alcohol on the plane, etc. to make money once they have your business.
It spreads demand out over time and over their product line. Similar strategy as how airlines advertise cheap fares to get you to fly on them, but then offer upgrades, early-bird check-in, more leg-room, additional checked bags, alcohol on the plane, etc. to make money once they have your business.
There's no way they can be sure the customer will buy another item from their own product line instead. Surely they're more likely to buy a competitor's product?
They don't have to, as long as more buyers do than choose to not buy the "hot" item after Christmas. In general it's a good thing to increase the size of your industry, as long as you capture some (not all) of that increase.
Also, I wouldn't bet on them being more likely to buy a competitor's product. Brand recognition counts for a lot, particularly with toys & other discretionary purchases. Some will, of course, but most people once "primed" will buy something close to what they initially had in mind.
Also, I wouldn't bet on them being more likely to buy a competitor's product. Brand recognition counts for a lot, particularly with toys & other discretionary purchases. Some will, of course, but most people once "primed" will buy something close to what they initially had in mind.
This was a strategy practiced long before the invention of e-commerce. It works perfectly for brick-and-mortar shops because physical distance to the toy shop (in winter!) guarantees more return customers.
It's not my book. I'm just citing sources because I was very incredulous when I heard this is common practice.
It only works if you have THE hottest toy of the season - something like a product from Star Wars for instance - you create intense demand for the product but limit availability. Simultaneously you provide alternative, inferior substitute product(s) in the same franchise that's less desirable.
The parent HAS to get their child something for Christmas. The child is primed to want the desirable product. The parent drives over town looking for it. Exhausted settles on the substitute product with the promise the child will get the 'real' product after Christmas. The parent spends $50 on the substitute product before Christmas and $70 on the desirable product after Christmas. This nets the toy company $120 so they come out ahead rather than just making $70 had they stocked a large inventory of the desirable product.
Again. It reads like a conspiracy theory. I was surprised to find out it wasn't.
It only works if you have THE hottest toy of the season - something like a product from Star Wars for instance - you create intense demand for the product but limit availability. Simultaneously you provide alternative, inferior substitute product(s) in the same franchise that's less desirable.
The parent HAS to get their child something for Christmas. The child is primed to want the desirable product. The parent drives over town looking for it. Exhausted settles on the substitute product with the promise the child will get the 'real' product after Christmas. The parent spends $50 on the substitute product before Christmas and $70 on the desirable product after Christmas. This nets the toy company $120 so they come out ahead rather than just making $70 had they stocked a large inventory of the desirable product.
Again. It reads like a conspiracy theory. I was surprised to find out it wasn't.
> It reads like a conspiracy theory.
I'm not sure what makes this a conspiracy. It's a producer deciding managing supply of their product to maximize total revenue—not colluding and not doing anything sinister. It's capitalism 101.
I'm not sure what makes this a conspiracy. It's a producer deciding managing supply of their product to maximize total revenue—not colluding and not doing anything sinister. It's capitalism 101.
How does a company ensure that their product is 'The' hot item of the year? What if several companies decide to do this? It's bullshit.
Thanks for explaining. So what is the inferior product in this case ?
In the toy store case, it's whatever the parents settle for.
Since, as you are implicitly observing, Nintendo itself doesn't have one available, I would agree with your implicit argument that this effect probably doesn't apply here.
But it's still at least an interesting thing to learn about. It really recontextualized some things from my childhood, and forced me to reconsider the fact that sometimes, yeah, it really is a straight-up conspiracy. I mean, yes, there's a danger in reaching for that explanation too quickly, but on the other hand, you can't dismiss it out-of-hand either.
Still, in the absence of an obvious "part two" for Nintendo, I would expect that Nintendo has simply had a hard time calibrating demand for this product. I don't blame them, because it seems like I've certainly seen things that the Internet seems to go gaga over, but nobody actually buys them in any quantity. There's a huge amount of variance I'd expect from their analysis; this could sell anywhere from half as well as the original Nintendo to "a couple thousand units".
Since, as you are implicitly observing, Nintendo itself doesn't have one available, I would agree with your implicit argument that this effect probably doesn't apply here.
But it's still at least an interesting thing to learn about. It really recontextualized some things from my childhood, and forced me to reconsider the fact that sometimes, yeah, it really is a straight-up conspiracy. I mean, yes, there's a danger in reaching for that explanation too quickly, but on the other hand, you can't dismiss it out-of-hand either.
Still, in the absence of an obvious "part two" for Nintendo, I would expect that Nintendo has simply had a hard time calibrating demand for this product. I don't blame them, because it seems like I've certainly seen things that the Internet seems to go gaga over, but nobody actually buys them in any quantity. There's a huge amount of variance I'd expect from their analysis; this could sell anywhere from half as well as the original Nintendo to "a couple thousand units".
I would expect it to sell really well to people who grew up with that nintendo and for whom $70 (game plus extra controller) is now an impulse purchase for the next time you have friends over.
> I mean, how many would they have made? 2,000?
I'm imagining at least an order of magnitude more ballpark-judging by $60 price point and tooling costs for enclosure molds alone.
I'm imagining at least an order of magnitude more ballpark-judging by $60 price point and tooling costs for enclosure molds alone.
This is 100% drop shipping.
That is not at all what drop shipping is.
Drop shipping is a supply chain management method in which the retailer does not keep goods in stock but instead transfers customer orders and shipment details to either the manufacturer, another retailer, or a wholesaler, who then ships the goods directly to the customerIt's not possible that today's buyers are having them shipped to their own customers? Maybe somebody set up preorders with bots to hit Amazon to fill the orders. Or found a way in Amazon's system to reserve the item but delay shipping until they get the destination address and collect their markup.
^ Precisely. Drop shippers are the ones who have the infrastructure set up to pull this off, and would have started selling early to capture pre-sales.
Just because you found one for sale on ebay doesn't prove the part about the bots at all...
In Australia, the NES Classic Edition came out on Thursday - the physical copies at Target etc. too were sold out in minutes, too. Some of the Facebook comments said that their local shop only got a few boxes which were gone mmediately: https://www.facebook.com/NintendoAUNZ/videos/714922218664914...
As usual, Nintendo doesn't get their customers and is completely unprepared.
As usual, Nintendo doesn't get their customers and is completely unprepared.
I think they know exactly what they're doing. Selling out in minutes causes news stories, and here we are.
Doing things for press coverage in order to get an increase in future sales is a great idea for a startup with limited marketing funds, but Nintendo aren't exactly in that position. The fact is Nintendo failed to supply a sufficient amount of their product, and that has created a demand in a secondary market. All of the profit generated in that secondary market would have gone to Nintendo if they'd managed their supply properly.
Unless it's a campain aimed at destroying sales of it's competitors during Christmas season. Remember that announcement for a new console planned for March? That's a startup marketing thing too, right?
> All of the profit generated in that secondary market would have gone to Nintendo if they'd managed their supply properly.
Untrue. The secondary market is currently selling units at a huge markup. I don't think we have a great indication at the moment on how fast the secondary market is moving; it's possible that, whilst Nintendo might have undervalued demand, the resellers are overvaluing it. As others point out, this also helps drive demand to an extent - it's a phenomenon Apple appears to take advantage of from time to time.
Untrue. The secondary market is currently selling units at a huge markup. I don't think we have a great indication at the moment on how fast the secondary market is moving; it's possible that, whilst Nintendo might have undervalued demand, the resellers are overvaluing it. As others point out, this also helps drive demand to an extent - it's a phenomenon Apple appears to take advantage of from time to time.
A model against this would be to announce that the first million copies will be at a 50% markup. It would mean that Nintendo (or Apple or whatever consumer-land vendor) can capture the added value, while using moderate production lines, stretching the delivery over time and still get the press releases about "We got our hands over the product, here's what it looks like".
Some sort of "exponential decay" pricing by the manufacturer would probably be very much frowned upon.
They lose nothing monetary.
They lose nothing monetary.
Suppose they contract with the manufacturer to set up 10 production lines to meet initial demand, what happens when demand drops in the New a Year and 'everyon' forgets these exist? They'll have to decommission most of the lines, which also has a cost. Also if they over-supply the initial surge of demand even a little, they could be stuck with months worth of tail end sales. Then what do they do? Decommission all the lines for that time? They'll have to pay for warehousing the product as well. There are a lot of factors to consider, it's not just a matter of magicing up however many units are needed at any given time.
Have you looked at the teardown of what this product actually is? Its using a very cheap Allwinner chip inside a plastic case, a similar board can be had for $7[1]. I highly doubt Nintendo is producing much in house, they probably have PCB manufacturing and final assembly outsourced, there isn't much to this device[2] physically.
[1] - https://liliputing.com/2016/11/orange-pi-zero-7-quad-core-de...
[2] - http://www.cnx-software.com/2016/11/08/nintendo-nes-classic-...
[1] - https://liliputing.com/2016/11/orange-pi-zero-7-quad-core-de...
[2] - http://www.cnx-software.com/2016/11/08/nintendo-nes-classic-...
This customer exploitation pattern is so common there should be an acronym for it.
Reminds me of the initial release of the Wii. Seems like a strategy to create scarcity and increase demand.
Possible, but Nintendo do not seem like the sort of company that needs to use direct marketing tactics to sell their products.
Doesn't need, but - if it leads to increase in sales or brand exposure (via increase of press covering the situation) - it may as well engage in such tactics anyway.
But the weird thing about the brand exposure is that before this sale, there was zero advertising - it was all word-of-mouth, without Reddit I wouldn't have even known this thing existed. Nintendo didn't do any advertising in Australia I saw, nothing on TV, at the shops or on buses like it happened with the regular consoles. I don't get it, and press coverage is still minimal outside of the circles that knew about this thing already (tech press).
There are over 2000 negative reviews on the Amazon page from people complaining that they were there at 5 and go nothing but errors (myself included).
Amazon own website can't run properly on AWS?
Parts of it don't run on AWS.
I wouldn't have expected that. Any idea which parts and why?
"At the time I was at Amazon, working on the retail site, none of Amazon.com was running on AWS. I know, when AWS was announced, with great fanfare, they said "the services that power Amazon.com can now power your business!" or words to that effect. This was a flat out lie."
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3102129
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3102129
I remember reading that but somehow forgot about it. It makes me wonder if the creation of AWS was an end run around devs and/or ops teams unwilling to evolve. Very political organizations seem to have such a hard time with big shifts in thinking.
I managed to pick one up on the Amazon mobile app. I had to do it exactly at the right time, but there wasn't an issue other than page load slowdown.
I was doing this (refreshing).
I had the Amazon app open on my phone and the website on my MacBook. I added it to my cart from the app at approx 14:00:01 ET, and by the time I clicked the cart and then checkout I got an error message saying the item was sold out.
I was so pissed that this happened, because I had been planning to follow this diligently since the day it was announced, and I had no less than 3 calendar events in my phone so that my day would be replete with reminders. I had the other websites that were supposedly selling it open as well, as a failed backup plan.
I should have written a script.
I had the Amazon app open on my phone and the website on my MacBook. I added it to my cart from the app at approx 14:00:01 ET, and by the time I clicked the cart and then checkout I got an error message saying the item was sold out.
I was so pissed that this happened, because I had been planning to follow this diligently since the day it was announced, and I had no less than 3 calendar events in my phone so that my day would be replete with reminders. I had the other websites that were supposedly selling it open as well, as a failed backup plan.
I should have written a script.
My gf just got one at Best Buy. They seem to have plenty.
But... but that's like IRL. There are people out there.
No robots there yet?
(Probably those Aibos are not to be trusted with cash.)
(Probably those Aibos are not to be trusted with cash.)
We had lines outside the local best buy in our small WV city.
(Re)seller here. I got one the old fashioned way, by pounding the refresh button. I actually am unaware of a bot you speak of... do you have an example?
The key to this hustle is to never tell your friends that you got one because their con of 'it's for my kids' is incessant.
Looking at some of the eBay sales data already a few have gone for over 600.
Yay for me!
The key to this hustle is to never tell your friends that you got one because their con of 'it's for my kids' is incessant.
Looking at some of the eBay sales data already a few have gone for over 600.
Yay for me!
[deleted]
I grok capitalism and even like it. But there are times where it is difficult to like it. In this case, people rushed to buy this product for the sole purpose of reselling it for 8x. What's wrong with our society that some people can be so morally bankrupt and bereft of good sense.
In the end, I think these scalpers won't sell for 8x because anintendo will just pump out more product. Still, it is sad to see this happen.
In the end, I think these scalpers won't sell for 8x because anintendo will just pump out more product. Still, it is sad to see this happen.
I feel like if you truly groked capitalism, you would be able to point out lots of its flaws, but also to realize that scalping is definitely not one of them.
With supply limited like this, the optimal social outcome is for the X units produced to go to the X people in the world who would value them most, in other words the people who would be willing to pay the most (only exception I can think of to this is if someone values it at V dollars and only has a net worth of W dollars where W < V, but for the sums we're talking about with the NES I think almost everyone either has or can scrounge up V).
In the final accounting with reselling on amazon, the goods end up where they are most highly valued. Sure, if we held a lottery to see who gets to buy the NESs at the sticker price rather than auctioning them, the people winning the lottery would be more happy than the people who end up winning the auction. But as a whole, society would be impoverished since it's an inefficient distribution (no room to prove it in a HN post, but it's not too hard to work out on paper when tallying up the welfare of nintendo, the scalpers and all the people who get to buy the NES under one scenario or the other).
With supply limited like this, the optimal social outcome is for the X units produced to go to the X people in the world who would value them most, in other words the people who would be willing to pay the most (only exception I can think of to this is if someone values it at V dollars and only has a net worth of W dollars where W < V, but for the sums we're talking about with the NES I think almost everyone either has or can scrounge up V).
In the final accounting with reselling on amazon, the goods end up where they are most highly valued. Sure, if we held a lottery to see who gets to buy the NESs at the sticker price rather than auctioning them, the people winning the lottery would be more happy than the people who end up winning the auction. But as a whole, society would be impoverished since it's an inefficient distribution (no room to prove it in a HN post, but it's not too hard to work out on paper when tallying up the welfare of nintendo, the scalpers and all the people who get to buy the NES under one scenario or the other).
Scalping is definitely sub-optimal. The reason being that it rewards a middleman, not the person doing the effort. It discourages labor.
A proper capitalist system for an event like a concert would have everybody enter bids for the seats, and once the venue fills up (or on the date of the event) the seats are assigned based on the bids. Of course if you're poor and the event is popular then capitalism says you're SOL. Money is everything and without money you are nothing.
One nice thing about this system is that prices are set by the people, not by the venue. People pay exactly what they think the performance is worth and no more. Artists get direct feedback as to how popular their act is.
A proper capitalist system for an event like a concert would have everybody enter bids for the seats, and once the venue fills up (or on the date of the event) the seats are assigned based on the bids. Of course if you're poor and the event is popular then capitalism says you're SOL. Money is everything and without money you are nothing.
One nice thing about this system is that prices are set by the people, not by the venue. People pay exactly what they think the performance is worth and no more. Artists get direct feedback as to how popular their act is.
The person willing to pay the most may not be the person who most desires it, considering the differing marginal utility of money across the vast spectrum of income/wealth inequality. Trump can buy on a lark what I would only shell out for as a matter of deepest, life-or-death desire.
(See also: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/10/do-economists-actuall..., http://www.demos.org/blog/12/23/14/when-inequality-ruins-ana..., http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/5822.html, and http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/5117.html for more on this same point)
(See also: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/10/do-economists-actuall..., http://www.demos.org/blog/12/23/14/when-inequality-ruins-ana..., http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/5822.html, and http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/5117.html for more on this same point)
I do understand capitalism, the point I made was that sometimes I don't have to like it. Scalping included.
I don't need to prove my knowledge to you by pointing out lots of capitalism's flaws. Instead of reading my comment carefully, you decided to teach me about how basic supply and demand operate. Jesus, you are a self-absorbed piece of work.
I don't need to prove my knowledge to you by pointing out lots of capitalism's flaws. Instead of reading my comment carefully, you decided to teach me about how basic supply and demand operate. Jesus, you are a self-absorbed piece of work.
I'm truly sorry if my comment affected you negatively, it wasn't my intention. I used to be an econ tutor and sometimes my urge to just type my thoughts that way comes out and I regret that it sounds like lecturing.
Anyways, why do you think that, given all that, scalping is a bad thing then? Isn't getting the goods to where they're valued most a good thing? Who's getting heartbroken here? The people who can't afford one at the market price of $600? But most of them weren't going to get one anyways because of the limited supply. If there's something to not like it's the scarcity, right?
Anyways, why do you think that, given all that, scalping is a bad thing then? Isn't getting the goods to where they're valued most a good thing? Who's getting heartbroken here? The people who can't afford one at the market price of $600? But most of them weren't going to get one anyways because of the limited supply. If there's something to not like it's the scarcity, right?
A problem I see is that the reseller is getting money for creating an artificial scarcity (buying off the stock of the original seller). It doesn't feel to me like an ethical behaviour. You portray it as making an unsolicited offering to the Gods of the Market on behalf of the original seller, but I don't think many people find a positive value in that. On the other hand, compare an example situations without scalping, and with 5x scalping:
There are other arguments for and against to be made, but I think this one is enough to see why many people - myself included - find this practice distasteful and antisocial.
NO SCALPING
Original seller gets: 1x price
Customer pays: 1x price
5x SCALPING
Original seller gets: 1x price
Reseller gets: 4x price
Customer pays: 5x price
There are other arguments for and against to be made, but I think this one is enough to see why many people - myself included - find this practice distasteful and antisocial.
Ok, put in that light I understand why there's a gut reaction of negativity. But when evaluating economic welfare of society, it is nearly an iron-clad rule to view all humans equally, and the scalpers are no exception. So we should try to push back against our gut reaction and look at it rationally.
Once we accept that the welfare of resellers matters just as much as customers, it's clear that the situation is not strictly worse with scalping.
As you helpfully tallied up there, the gains and losses of everyone involved is the same in terms of money changing hand in either case, but in the latter case of scalping, the world is richer, because in addition to the money you paid or lost, people in the world who have an NES celebrate it to the degree they like the NES. And that has to be higher for the people who won it via auction rather than blind luck.
I can see an objection coming, and that's that in the real world it's not blind luck, since often the people in a no scalping world camp out for days to try and be the winners of the lottery. But this is not a good outcome, because while this does mean that the people who value the NES most will tend to get it, it also leads to ruinous competition in terms of who is willing to spend the most time in line. The hours wasted to the line have to then be counted as a negative in the tally and that makes that option arguably worse than the blind lotto and certainly worse than the auction.
Once we accept that the welfare of resellers matters just as much as customers, it's clear that the situation is not strictly worse with scalping.
As you helpfully tallied up there, the gains and losses of everyone involved is the same in terms of money changing hand in either case, but in the latter case of scalping, the world is richer, because in addition to the money you paid or lost, people in the world who have an NES celebrate it to the degree they like the NES. And that has to be higher for the people who won it via auction rather than blind luck.
I can see an objection coming, and that's that in the real world it's not blind luck, since often the people in a no scalping world camp out for days to try and be the winners of the lottery. But this is not a good outcome, because while this does mean that the people who value the NES most will tend to get it, it also leads to ruinous competition in terms of who is willing to spend the most time in line. The hours wasted to the line have to then be counted as a negative in the tally and that makes that option arguably worse than the blind lotto and certainly worse than the auction.
To really create the scarcity the scalper must continue to buy all of the items that come out. That is not going to happen, because they never created the scarcity in the first place. Nintendo released too few items to start, and possibly charged too low of price.
The customer is also not forced to pay anything. There is typically a short timeframe where the items are out of stock.
I personally find tons of value in scalping. I've done it myself with tickets, and bought tickets in the same manner. It lets me trade time (waiting at a website or in line) for money.
The customer is also not forced to pay anything. There is typically a short timeframe where the items are out of stock.
I personally find tons of value in scalping. I've done it myself with tickets, and bought tickets in the same manner. It lets me trade time (waiting at a website or in line) for money.
If it were easy to scalp, people would do it themselves, so it is nontrivial.
Scalpers also make it easier to buy the product; without scalping one can not be sure whether one will get the product or not.
Scalpers also make it easier to buy the product; without scalping one can not be sure whether one will get the product or not.
Your comment was fine. Too many people do not like scalping because it 'feels' unfair. Unfair is defined as buying said limited quantity item when they want at the price they want. It also touches into the very present class warfare undertone that is so prevalent right now. "Some rich person can go get one for $500 without (waiting in line|getting up at 4am|etc...), but I can't."
Personally I like scalping because I can almost always buy what I want as opposed to no option. It has always worked out well for tickets and items.
Personally I like scalping because I can almost always buy what I want as opposed to no option. It has always worked out well for tickets and items.
It's a rare thing to have someone actually apologise online - have an upvote.
> What's wrong with our society that some people can be so morally bankrupt and bereft of good sense.
I don't know, but I shun, punish (by refusing to do business with them) and counter-market such people whenever I can. It's one thing to take a good and resell it for a larger price to a different audience; you're in essence making it more accessible and also take on some distribution headache, and thus deserve to cash in. That's how almost every brick and mortar store works. But it's another thing to buy off someone's stock only to turn around and resell it for more to the same customer base. That's, in my opinion, just plain sliminess.
I don't know, but I shun, punish (by refusing to do business with them) and counter-market such people whenever I can. It's one thing to take a good and resell it for a larger price to a different audience; you're in essence making it more accessible and also take on some distribution headache, and thus deserve to cash in. That's how almost every brick and mortar store works. But it's another thing to buy off someone's stock only to turn around and resell it for more to the same customer base. That's, in my opinion, just plain sliminess.
> What's wrong with our society that some people can be so morally bankrupt and bereft of good sense.
In the end, I think these scalpers won't sell for 8x because anintendo will just pump out more product. Still, it is sad to see this happen.
Morally? It's a video game. Scalpers are fine. Blame Nintendo for not making more of them or charging a higher price so the limited supply met demand. Everyone will have their NES Classic in a month or two.
Morally? It's a video game. Scalpers are fine. Blame Nintendo for not making more of them or charging a higher price so the limited supply met demand. Everyone will have their NES Classic in a month or two.
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It might not have seemed that way in writing, but in reading your post is contradictory. If the motivation for a person to do this is lost on you, you don't grok capitalism; and if that bothers you, you don't like capitalism.
With high margins more entreprenors will enter the market. But in this case nintendo have a monopoly.
What exactly is "morally bankrupt" about buying a mispriced good and reselling it at a proper price?
People get very morally righteous about scalping, but I don't understand why at all. Resellers are correcting a distortion in the market and providing a value-added service.
People get very morally righteous about scalping, but I don't understand why at all. Resellers are correcting a distortion in the market and providing a value-added service.
The only value they add is amplifying the scarcity.
How it normally works is this:
* Some person sells something locally for $x
* There is demand outside that location for the same product
* Someone buys the product locally for $x and sells it elsewhere for $y > $x
* Customers are provided access to a product they would otherwise not be aware of or not have access to, the reseller makes money from the margin, the producer can produce and sell more product, everybody wins
How it works in this case:
* Some person sells something for price $x at a limited quantity
* Someone buys up all the product for $x and resells it for $y > $x
* Customers are prevented from accessing the product at the original price, the reseller makes money from the margin, the producer doesn't gain any advantage, only the reseller wins
Can you honestly not see how this is different? It's morally bankrupt because it offers no value to anyone and entirely profits from the charity of the producer who sells a product below market value. And in the worst case the reseller ends up with tons of unsold product and is forced to dump it later or even throw it away completely (which depending on the margins may still turn a profit overall).
How it normally works is this:
* Some person sells something locally for $x
* There is demand outside that location for the same product
* Someone buys the product locally for $x and sells it elsewhere for $y > $x
* Customers are provided access to a product they would otherwise not be aware of or not have access to, the reseller makes money from the margin, the producer can produce and sell more product, everybody wins
How it works in this case:
* Some person sells something for price $x at a limited quantity
* Someone buys up all the product for $x and resells it for $y > $x
* Customers are prevented from accessing the product at the original price, the reseller makes money from the margin, the producer doesn't gain any advantage, only the reseller wins
Can you honestly not see how this is different? It's morally bankrupt because it offers no value to anyone and entirely profits from the charity of the producer who sells a product below market value. And in the worst case the reseller ends up with tons of unsold product and is forced to dump it later or even throw it away completely (which depending on the margins may still turn a profit overall).
I think it may even be possible to dump all the risk of the items not selling and storage costs onto the original seller due to quirks of how Amazon works.
> bereft of good sense
Investing money in something that is nigh-guaranteed to have excellent returns is very good sense for anyone with the time and effort to spend on reselling the product.
Investing money in something that is nigh-guaranteed to have excellent returns is very good sense for anyone with the time and effort to spend on reselling the product.
And, let's be sincere here, this is not some essential item, like food or shelter.
What's wrong with our society that some people can be so morally bankrupt and bereft of good sense.
This type of behavior is literally all around us. I recently listened to a podcast about this exact phenomenon. It featured a couple that had a special rug that drove cats crazy. They sold it on amazon for ~$35. A bunch of people bought them up and sold them on ebay for a lot more, using the drop-ship method (the reseller ordered it using their amazon account with the buyers shipping address).
When people realized they were being ripped off, they returned it to the original seller, who had to handle the claims due to requirements by amazon. They lost 10's of thousands of $$. The creator called some of the people doing this and they laughed him off, telling him they were doing nothing wrong.
It was on planet money's podcast, I think. I can try and find it if you're curious.
This type of behavior is literally all around us. I recently listened to a podcast about this exact phenomenon. It featured a couple that had a special rug that drove cats crazy. They sold it on amazon for ~$35. A bunch of people bought them up and sold them on ebay for a lot more, using the drop-ship method (the reseller ordered it using their amazon account with the buyers shipping address).
When people realized they were being ripped off, they returned it to the original seller, who had to handle the claims due to requirements by amazon. They lost 10's of thousands of $$. The creator called some of the people doing this and they laughed him off, telling him they were doing nothing wrong.
It was on planet money's podcast, I think. I can try and find it if you're curious.
The problem isn't the arbitrage (which is a core component of capitalism and profit [1]) these people are utilizing, its Amazon's draconian policy towards sellers.
[1] Hat tip to patio11: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9087930
> They're likely using one of the world's oldest business models: "Buy things for $1, sell them for $2."
[1] Hat tip to patio11: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9087930
> They're likely using one of the world's oldest business models: "Buy things for $1, sell them for $2."
Episode 724: Cat Scam[1]
1: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/09/14/493810206/episo...
1: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/09/14/493810206/episo...
As a side note, that episode left me wondering why the original seller didn't open their own eBay store, listing the product at their desired price. I would have thought it would have effectively undercut the resellers and gain a large portion of the sales on eBay.
Another note, Planet Money is pretty much my favourite "always on"* podcast. An podcast about economics might sound dull to some, but what a lot (maybe not on HN) people don't realise is "economics" is a really a study of human behaviour at the macro level, and a large part of human behaviour at the micro level.
* serial was hugely addictive, but it only has short seasons, and each episode had what seemed like a huge wait between them.
Another note, Planet Money is pretty much my favourite "always on"* podcast. An podcast about economics might sound dull to some, but what a lot (maybe not on HN) people don't realise is "economics" is a really a study of human behaviour at the macro level, and a large part of human behaviour at the micro level.
* serial was hugely addictive, but it only has short seasons, and each episode had what seemed like a huge wait between them.
The original seller did [0]:
This summer, Ruckel tried a new approach: He put his own product on eBay and titled it “All other eBay sellers are fake.” A few weeks later, he stumbled upon an eBay listing with a familiar title. “All other eBay sellers are fake,” it said. It wasn’t his, of course.
> As a side note, that episode left me wondering why the original seller didn't open their own eBay store, listing the product at their desired price. I would have thought it would have effectively undercut the resellers and gain a large portion of the sales on eBay.
Yeah, as long as they were aggressive in making sure there were on multiple marketplaces, and came up first in searches, that would probably be the best response. The bit gain here isn't really the extra sales on the other marketplaces, it's the reduced returns which eat into their profits.
> Another note, Planet Money is pretty much my favourite "always on"* podcast. An podcast about economics might sound dull to some, but what a lot (maybe not on HN) people don't realise is "economics" is a really a study of human behaviour at the macro level, and a large part of human behaviour at the micro level.
Also one of my favorites. I also enjoy Freakonomics. For anyone that enjoys well produced podcasts, I highly recommend just about everything Gimlet Media produces. It was founded by one of the original founders of Planet Money (Alex Blumberg), and they've gotten quite few NPR alumni at this point (mostly from This American Life, which is basically a expert podcast production training ground at this point, Planet Money spawned from that as well). My current favorites are:
- Startup - Excellent. They've gone through a few seasons now. I recommend starting at the beginning.
- Reply All - For the most part excellent. They occasionally to into weird territory, but I laugh during their episodes quite often. The interplay between the hosts is great. Like friends that are kind of assholes to each other because they've been friends for so long, and you get a front row seat.
- Science Vs - A new favorite of mine. At first I wasn't sure what to make of the delivery, which is very campy, but now I think it's perfect for what can be fairly dry subject matter.
- Heavyweight - If you know who Jonathan Goldstein is, or have listened to This American Life enough to recognize his voice (and if you've heard it before, you probably will), you'll have a good idea of what you're in for. I recommend starting with Episode #2 to see if you like it, because it's amazing in both the names involved and the audacity of the idea. That said, I did tear up at the end of #1, as I have brothers of my own.
- Mystery Show - Also excellent, but no longer continuing. Another TIL alumni, Starlee Kine.
There's others in there too, which are all fairly good, but these, along with a smattering of others[1] I listen to are more than enough for me to handle. That said, Gimlet does have a triplet of new shows for their "fall lineup"[2], and some of those sound great too. Okay, that's enough about Gimlet, I've just been really happy about the quality of podcasts lately, and they've contributed a lot to that I think. Radiotopia seems to be the other (different) group that's got some quality content.
It's kind of amazing that since I only really listen to them when in the car, I sometimes look forward to running errands just so I get a few more minutes in to listen.
1: 99% Invisible, Criminal (I believe Gimlet hired one of the founders of this for one of their new shows), Real Time with Bill Maher, Still Untitled: The Adam Savage Project, The Memory Palace.
2: https://gimletmedia.com/2016/11/01/introducing-gimlets-fall-...
Yeah, as long as they were aggressive in making sure there were on multiple marketplaces, and came up first in searches, that would probably be the best response. The bit gain here isn't really the extra sales on the other marketplaces, it's the reduced returns which eat into their profits.
> Another note, Planet Money is pretty much my favourite "always on"* podcast. An podcast about economics might sound dull to some, but what a lot (maybe not on HN) people don't realise is "economics" is a really a study of human behaviour at the macro level, and a large part of human behaviour at the micro level.
Also one of my favorites. I also enjoy Freakonomics. For anyone that enjoys well produced podcasts, I highly recommend just about everything Gimlet Media produces. It was founded by one of the original founders of Planet Money (Alex Blumberg), and they've gotten quite few NPR alumni at this point (mostly from This American Life, which is basically a expert podcast production training ground at this point, Planet Money spawned from that as well). My current favorites are:
- Startup - Excellent. They've gone through a few seasons now. I recommend starting at the beginning.
- Reply All - For the most part excellent. They occasionally to into weird territory, but I laugh during their episodes quite often. The interplay between the hosts is great. Like friends that are kind of assholes to each other because they've been friends for so long, and you get a front row seat.
- Science Vs - A new favorite of mine. At first I wasn't sure what to make of the delivery, which is very campy, but now I think it's perfect for what can be fairly dry subject matter.
- Heavyweight - If you know who Jonathan Goldstein is, or have listened to This American Life enough to recognize his voice (and if you've heard it before, you probably will), you'll have a good idea of what you're in for. I recommend starting with Episode #2 to see if you like it, because it's amazing in both the names involved and the audacity of the idea. That said, I did tear up at the end of #1, as I have brothers of my own.
- Mystery Show - Also excellent, but no longer continuing. Another TIL alumni, Starlee Kine.
There's others in there too, which are all fairly good, but these, along with a smattering of others[1] I listen to are more than enough for me to handle. That said, Gimlet does have a triplet of new shows for their "fall lineup"[2], and some of those sound great too. Okay, that's enough about Gimlet, I've just been really happy about the quality of podcasts lately, and they've contributed a lot to that I think. Radiotopia seems to be the other (different) group that's got some quality content.
It's kind of amazing that since I only really listen to them when in the car, I sometimes look forward to running errands just so I get a few more minutes in to listen.
1: 99% Invisible, Criminal (I believe Gimlet hired one of the founders of this for one of their new shows), Real Time with Bill Maher, Still Untitled: The Adam Savage Project, The Memory Palace.
2: https://gimletmedia.com/2016/11/01/introducing-gimlets-fall-...
The problem is finding which point was wrong. What behavior was done here that should be discouraged or banned by society? People don't like the outcome, but where should the government intervene?
How is this "morally bankrupt"? It's just smart. Every business on earth would do this in there sector if they had the chance.
What's wrong with a smart and clever individual buying this to resell at 8x? It's not hurting anyone, it's just a stupid retro console.
What's wrong with society? People are struggling and getting screwed over by governments and big business, they badly need income and here is a small opportunity to get a piece of that pie.
Ultimately someone that wants the product who is happy to pay the price that it is sold for, because they deem it worth that price, ends up with the product in there life. And someone else manages to profit to, to gain some much needed income so they can purchase something they want in there life.
Hardly morally bankrupt. There is no change in the outcome here. There are still the same amount of people with these consoles, enjoying them as before. Nobody is hurt.
In fact you could argue that someone doing this is a net gain, because two people gain instead of one. Someone made a profit that wouldn't otherwise and someone got the console they wanted (and obviously didn't care about the price)
What's wrong with a smart and clever individual buying this to resell at 8x? It's not hurting anyone, it's just a stupid retro console.
What's wrong with society? People are struggling and getting screwed over by governments and big business, they badly need income and here is a small opportunity to get a piece of that pie.
Ultimately someone that wants the product who is happy to pay the price that it is sold for, because they deem it worth that price, ends up with the product in there life. And someone else manages to profit to, to gain some much needed income so they can purchase something they want in there life.
Hardly morally bankrupt. There is no change in the outcome here. There are still the same amount of people with these consoles, enjoying them as before. Nobody is hurt.
In fact you could argue that someone doing this is a net gain, because two people gain instead of one. Someone made a profit that wouldn't otherwise and someone got the console they wanted (and obviously didn't care about the price)
We're not talking about "smart and clever individuals" here. We're talking about scalper bots gaming the system by buying all of the product literally seconds after the seller flipped the switch. This isn't fair for the consumer at all as the product has literally been taken hostage by some third-party with unfair advantage. It's the 21st century equivalent to plundering trade routes.
Also, I don't think the nature of the product has any influence on the morals of the practice, I find it despicable no matter what is being sold.
Also, I don't think the nature of the product has any influence on the morals of the practice, I find it despicable no matter what is being sold.
There is no plundering happening here. Nobody is streaming anything, everyone has made their decision.
Nintendo for some reason sold a too low quantity, and now the price is high, as denoted by Basic Economics. Its not like this was free money for the scalpers, they took a risk and estimates the demand for the product.
Now people who want it the most, can get it. Those who dont want it that mucj, dont get it. Its absolutely logical, and in no way immoral.
Nintendo for some reason sold a too low quantity, and now the price is high, as denoted by Basic Economics. Its not like this was free money for the scalpers, they took a risk and estimates the demand for the product.
Now people who want it the most, can get it. Those who dont want it that mucj, dont get it. Its absolutely logical, and in no way immoral.
Plundering? You think Nintendo doesn't get their cut. Back in the age of discovery these types of products would sell for their actual, top end value period. The distributors never got a say.
Market arbitrage is 'wrong' insofar as, if someone "deems [the product] worth that price", then the compensation for the created value should go to the people who created that value. To do otherwise is to deprive the market of the signalling tokens (dollars) it uses to propagate information about what things there should be more of, back to the people who make things.
The ultimate arbitrage, after all, is communism, where a central actor soaks up all the profits, and then is left with the responsibility of figuring out who should make more of what themselves, because hell if the producers know.
The ultimate arbitrage, after all, is communism, where a central actor soaks up all the profits, and then is left with the responsibility of figuring out who should make more of what themselves, because hell if the producers know.
The only people depriving the market of the signaling tokens are the sellers charging an price where they know that demand will far outstrip their ability to supply the product.
The market way to handle a small supply of a popular product is to charge a high price, so that purchases equal production. All the compensation goes to the people who created the value, and the people who value the product the most are the ones who are able to obtain it.
Of course, Nintendo doesn't want to charge $1,200 (or whatever) for this product, because it would make people upset. So they set an artificially low price and deal with shortages for a while. Or maybe the shortages are a feature, driving demand through perceived social pressure.
They're certainly allowed to do that. But that's Nintendo screwing with the market and trying to defy economics. Arbitrageurs are just putting things back the way they would naturally be.
Note how companies and industries which are not afraid to charge high prices for products in high demand rarely suffer from scalpers.
The market way to handle a small supply of a popular product is to charge a high price, so that purchases equal production. All the compensation goes to the people who created the value, and the people who value the product the most are the ones who are able to obtain it.
Of course, Nintendo doesn't want to charge $1,200 (or whatever) for this product, because it would make people upset. So they set an artificially low price and deal with shortages for a while. Or maybe the shortages are a feature, driving demand through perceived social pressure.
They're certainly allowed to do that. But that's Nintendo screwing with the market and trying to defy economics. Arbitrageurs are just putting things back the way they would naturally be.
Note how companies and industries which are not afraid to charge high prices for products in high demand rarely suffer from scalpers.
> It's not hurting anyone, it's just a stupid retro console.
It's hurting the people who are forced to pay $600 for a $60 item because they need one (e.g. a must-have gift for someone).
It's hurting the people who wanted to buy one for $60 but cannot afford to buy one for $600.
So yeah, it's hurting basically everybody who had any interest in buying the product.
It's hurting the people who are forced to pay $600 for a $60 item because they need one (e.g. a must-have gift for someone).
It's hurting the people who wanted to buy one for $60 but cannot afford to buy one for $600.
So yeah, it's hurting basically everybody who had any interest in buying the product.
> It's hurting the people who are forced to pay $600 for a $60 item because they need one (e.g. a must-have gift for someone).
LOL at the privilege of this being a real problem for someone. If we were talking about price gouging on food, medicine, or housing then I might agree with you. But luxury gifts? Come on, man.
> It's hurting the people who wanted to buy one for $60 but cannot afford to buy one for $600.
LOL at the idea that they can't just wait for them to manufacture more of them. I mean, the games have been out for nearly 30 years now, right?
LOL at the privilege of this being a real problem for someone. If we were talking about price gouging on food, medicine, or housing then I might agree with you. But luxury gifts? Come on, man.
> It's hurting the people who wanted to buy one for $60 but cannot afford to buy one for $600.
LOL at the idea that they can't just wait for them to manufacture more of them. I mean, the games have been out for nearly 30 years now, right?
> LOL at the idea that they can't just wait for them to manufacture more of them. I mean, the games have been out for nearly 30 years now, right?
Assuming more are eventually manufactured, which many hope to be the case...in this instance.
On a related personal note roughly 5 years ago, HP released a limited edition of their 15c RPN scientific calculator[1], which promptly sold out and found their way on eBay listing for $100s more. Despite popular demand, HP never manufactured more. I was lucky enough to acquire two units direct from HP at original cost and actively use one--along with a 35s--on a daily basis; the second is a spare that I refuse to part with.
The moral bankruptcy manifests in a willingness to acknowledge that this behavior is unacceptable were the product "food, medicine, or housing" or any commodity that is generally classified as a necessity. In my eyes, the principle of the matter cannot discriminate.
[1] http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/pscmisc/vac/us/product_pdfs/1...
Assuming more are eventually manufactured, which many hope to be the case...in this instance.
On a related personal note roughly 5 years ago, HP released a limited edition of their 15c RPN scientific calculator[1], which promptly sold out and found their way on eBay listing for $100s more. Despite popular demand, HP never manufactured more. I was lucky enough to acquire two units direct from HP at original cost and actively use one--along with a 35s--on a daily basis; the second is a spare that I refuse to part with.
The moral bankruptcy manifests in a willingness to acknowledge that this behavior is unacceptable were the product "food, medicine, or housing" or any commodity that is generally classified as a necessity. In my eyes, the principle of the matter cannot discriminate.
[1] http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/pscmisc/vac/us/product_pdfs/1...
Why are you blaming scalpers for people's woes with the 15c, rather than blaming HP?
I see no problem with having different standards for necessities than for luxuries. We'd consider it morally reprehensible to deny food to a poor person, but few people have a problem denying yachts to a poor person.
I see no problem with having different standards for necessities than for luxuries. We'd consider it morally reprehensible to deny food to a poor person, but few people have a problem denying yachts to a poor person.
There's a distinct difference between blaming scalpers for a general shortage of supply and holding them accountable for detestable profiteering behavior.
The point of bringing up the 15c instance was to highlight the apparent assumption that manufacturer supply always trend consumer demand. A large portion of the user community knew in advance that the 15c would be limited release...but so did scalpers as hundreds of units were immediately relisted at super-inflated prices on zero-day. In the end, it's the user community for which the product was intending to target who ultimately loses...which inflames the compromise that I've made in my mind between a legit business incentive to make a fair profit and an underlying hacker ethos.
Furthermore, scalpers have nothing invested in the creation of the end-product, nor do they ever intend to use it, nor is there any value added to their super-inflated relist price, nor do they share in the business risk of bring the product to market. Profiteering is their strict modus operandi. Although it's certainly delusional to think that these bad apples could ever be done away with completely, I think it's equally asinine to point fingers at an OEM (who has invested in and owns the IP rights) without having first excercised due diligence in holding scalpers who are demonstrably contributing to the supply problem publicly accountable for their actions, if only on a moral note. The problem becomes even more exacerbated when technology enables independent scalpers to gain critical mass on a scale that can nerf an entire production lot. It's unfortunate that the only real action the public can take is inaction against scalper relists...it's even more unfortunate that real consequences are practically nonexistent.
What isn't being acknowledged is the very real risk that any company faces with bringing a hardware product to market at scale. Saturate the market with the intent of deterring scalpers and your unsold investment sits in a storage warehouse costing you untold amounts collecting dust. Increase unit cost on the next product lot and suffer consumer outrage. Set the initial cost beyond reasonable profit and you're in price gouging territory. Assuming a sustainable business model, where's the incentive? Again, it's the user community who ultimately loses to the true vectoralist scalper.
The food vs. yacht analogy appears to dismiss reality. In a zero-sum game, the unit cost of a yacht commands a ballpark 6-8 orders of magnitude delta over food. As a society, we indirectly deny poor people yachts on the merit of economic sensibility, not because it's a social luxury; simply replace yacht with a scaleable luxury like cell phone or computer. The notion of an alternative "affordable yacht" is an oxymoron and subjectively exclusive to the wealthy.
The point of bringing up the 15c instance was to highlight the apparent assumption that manufacturer supply always trend consumer demand. A large portion of the user community knew in advance that the 15c would be limited release...but so did scalpers as hundreds of units were immediately relisted at super-inflated prices on zero-day. In the end, it's the user community for which the product was intending to target who ultimately loses...which inflames the compromise that I've made in my mind between a legit business incentive to make a fair profit and an underlying hacker ethos.
Furthermore, scalpers have nothing invested in the creation of the end-product, nor do they ever intend to use it, nor is there any value added to their super-inflated relist price, nor do they share in the business risk of bring the product to market. Profiteering is their strict modus operandi. Although it's certainly delusional to think that these bad apples could ever be done away with completely, I think it's equally asinine to point fingers at an OEM (who has invested in and owns the IP rights) without having first excercised due diligence in holding scalpers who are demonstrably contributing to the supply problem publicly accountable for their actions, if only on a moral note. The problem becomes even more exacerbated when technology enables independent scalpers to gain critical mass on a scale that can nerf an entire production lot. It's unfortunate that the only real action the public can take is inaction against scalper relists...it's even more unfortunate that real consequences are practically nonexistent.
What isn't being acknowledged is the very real risk that any company faces with bringing a hardware product to market at scale. Saturate the market with the intent of deterring scalpers and your unsold investment sits in a storage warehouse costing you untold amounts collecting dust. Increase unit cost on the next product lot and suffer consumer outrage. Set the initial cost beyond reasonable profit and you're in price gouging territory. Assuming a sustainable business model, where's the incentive? Again, it's the user community who ultimately loses to the true vectoralist scalper.
The food vs. yacht analogy appears to dismiss reality. In a zero-sum game, the unit cost of a yacht commands a ballpark 6-8 orders of magnitude delta over food. As a society, we indirectly deny poor people yachts on the merit of economic sensibility, not because it's a social luxury; simply replace yacht with a scaleable luxury like cell phone or computer. The notion of an alternative "affordable yacht" is an oxymoron and subjectively exclusive to the wealthy.
> Furthermore, scalpers have nothing invested in the creation of the end-product, nor do they ever intend to use it, nor is there any value added to their super-inflated relist price, nor do they share in the business risk of bring the product to market.
They've added a lot of value for people who really wanted the console to the extent that they were willing to simply pay $600 for it. Those people can now buy the console rather than having to dick around with the limited supply and hope they were lucky. Trade creates wealth, just as if they'd e.g. imported a product to somewhere where it's not normally sold.
> The food vs. yacht analogy appears to dismiss reality. In a zero-sum game, the unit cost of a yacht commands a ballpark 6-8 orders of magnitude delta over food. As a society, we indirectly deny poor people yachts on the merit of economic sensibility, not because it's a social luxury; simply replace yacht with a scaleable luxury like cell phone or computer. The notion of an alternative "affordable yacht" is an oxymoron and subjectively exclusive to the wealthy.
We're talking about a videogame console here - and not even a value-for-money one, it's been a gimmick from the start.
They've added a lot of value for people who really wanted the console to the extent that they were willing to simply pay $600 for it. Those people can now buy the console rather than having to dick around with the limited supply and hope they were lucky. Trade creates wealth, just as if they'd e.g. imported a product to somewhere where it's not normally sold.
> The food vs. yacht analogy appears to dismiss reality. In a zero-sum game, the unit cost of a yacht commands a ballpark 6-8 orders of magnitude delta over food. As a society, we indirectly deny poor people yachts on the merit of economic sensibility, not because it's a social luxury; simply replace yacht with a scaleable luxury like cell phone or computer. The notion of an alternative "affordable yacht" is an oxymoron and subjectively exclusive to the wealthy.
We're talking about a videogame console here - and not even a value-for-money one, it's been a gimmick from the start.
> They've added a lot of value for people who really wanted the console to the extent that they were willing to simply pay $600 for it. Those people can now buy the console rather than having to dick around with the limited supply and hope they were lucky.
There is no value added when product scarcity is artificially promulgated by scalpers with no end-use intent. You've made the assumption that the supply status quo would exist without scaplers actively exploiting the market en masse, and I beg to differ...the difference is, as of this minute, I can point to over 5,600 reasons on eBay US alone[1] that support my argument.
You've clearly defined the value added in importing a product to a market where it's not normally sold: work which directly increases product availability. Scalpers do neither and instead play an unaccountable game of double penetration: first by creating artificial scarcity in the market, then again by immediately relisting at 10-fold markup within the very same market they've negated.
> We're talking about a videogame console here - and not even a value-for-money one, it's been a gimmick from the start.
Irrelevant. You are, of course, entitled to your own valuation of the product. Nintendo--who has made real investments in and rightfully owns the IP rights to--on the other hand, has clearly valued it at $60 for its end user, profit markups at the OEM and authorized distributor levels included. Scalpers do nothing more than profiteer, costing legitimate end users a proverbial shit ton more to acquire, and soiling the public image of a company which clearly intended to do well with its end users. On that note, I'll gladly take the time to piss all over the corn flakes of scalpers, the true root cause of this problem.
[1] http://www.ebay.com/sch/?_nkw=nes%20classic%20edition
There is no value added when product scarcity is artificially promulgated by scalpers with no end-use intent. You've made the assumption that the supply status quo would exist without scaplers actively exploiting the market en masse, and I beg to differ...the difference is, as of this minute, I can point to over 5,600 reasons on eBay US alone[1] that support my argument.
You've clearly defined the value added in importing a product to a market where it's not normally sold: work which directly increases product availability. Scalpers do neither and instead play an unaccountable game of double penetration: first by creating artificial scarcity in the market, then again by immediately relisting at 10-fold markup within the very same market they've negated.
> We're talking about a videogame console here - and not even a value-for-money one, it's been a gimmick from the start.
Irrelevant. You are, of course, entitled to your own valuation of the product. Nintendo--who has made real investments in and rightfully owns the IP rights to--on the other hand, has clearly valued it at $60 for its end user, profit markups at the OEM and authorized distributor levels included. Scalpers do nothing more than profiteer, costing legitimate end users a proverbial shit ton more to acquire, and soiling the public image of a company which clearly intended to do well with its end users. On that note, I'll gladly take the time to piss all over the corn flakes of scalpers, the true root cause of this problem.
[1] http://www.ebay.com/sch/?_nkw=nes%20classic%20edition
> You've made the assumption that the supply status quo would exist without scaplers actively exploiting the market en masse, and I beg to differ...the difference is, as of this minute, I can point to over 5,600 reasons on eBay US alone[1] that support my argument.
The scalpers don't destroy the consoles any more than they create them. All they're doing is spreading out the supply over maybe a few weeks - they'll be pricing them to sell before the next shipment from Nintendo arrives. Or else they've made a mistake and are going to lose money for it, which is fine too. Maybe some scalpers are holding onto them for the Christmas rush, but that's just the difference between the console sitting on the scalper's shelf or sitting in a box under the tree - it makes no odds either way.
> You've clearly defined the value added in importing a product to a market where it's not normally sold: work which directly increases product availability.
Scalpers are just import/export across time rather than across space. If it weren't for scalpers there wouldn't be any of this console on sale right now, it'd just be sold out everywhere.
> Scalpers do neither and instead play an unaccountable game of double penetration: first by creating artificial scarcity in the market, then again by immediately relisting at 10-fold markup within the very same market they've negated.
I very much doubt the scarcity is artificial. Scalping is too competitive, too easy a market to enter, for anyone to be cornering the market.
> Irrelevant. You are, of course, entitled to your own valuation of the product.
My point is that it's yacht-like (or, sure, like a $60 trinket rather than a $60k one - let's say a Mont Blanc notebook) rather than food-like. No-one physically needs it, no-one deserves it at a below-market price.
> Nintendo--who has made real investments in and rightfully owns the IP rights to--on the other hand, has clearly valued it at $60 for its end user, profit markups at the OEM and authorized distributor levels included.
Nintendo (who FWIW are notorious for price-fixing and bullying retailers, "losing" shipments for those who don't cooperate) don't get to choose how much people buy or sell the products they own for; it's a free country. If Nintendo can really produce it for less than $60 then they should be selling it for $60 and making money. But they've sold all their stock, and the demand is still there.
The scalpers don't destroy the consoles any more than they create them. All they're doing is spreading out the supply over maybe a few weeks - they'll be pricing them to sell before the next shipment from Nintendo arrives. Or else they've made a mistake and are going to lose money for it, which is fine too. Maybe some scalpers are holding onto them for the Christmas rush, but that's just the difference between the console sitting on the scalper's shelf or sitting in a box under the tree - it makes no odds either way.
> You've clearly defined the value added in importing a product to a market where it's not normally sold: work which directly increases product availability.
Scalpers are just import/export across time rather than across space. If it weren't for scalpers there wouldn't be any of this console on sale right now, it'd just be sold out everywhere.
> Scalpers do neither and instead play an unaccountable game of double penetration: first by creating artificial scarcity in the market, then again by immediately relisting at 10-fold markup within the very same market they've negated.
I very much doubt the scarcity is artificial. Scalping is too competitive, too easy a market to enter, for anyone to be cornering the market.
> Irrelevant. You are, of course, entitled to your own valuation of the product.
My point is that it's yacht-like (or, sure, like a $60 trinket rather than a $60k one - let's say a Mont Blanc notebook) rather than food-like. No-one physically needs it, no-one deserves it at a below-market price.
> Nintendo--who has made real investments in and rightfully owns the IP rights to--on the other hand, has clearly valued it at $60 for its end user, profit markups at the OEM and authorized distributor levels included.
Nintendo (who FWIW are notorious for price-fixing and bullying retailers, "losing" shipments for those who don't cooperate) don't get to choose how much people buy or sell the products they own for; it's a free country. If Nintendo can really produce it for less than $60 then they should be selling it for $60 and making money. But they've sold all their stock, and the demand is still there.
Wow, this brings back memories.
I remember stumbling on this HP calculator many years ago and struggling to use it for simple infix arithmetic not knowing it was an RPN calculator.
I remember stumbling on this HP calculator many years ago and struggling to use it for simple infix arithmetic not knowing it was an RPN calculator.
It seems HP deserves a bit of the blame in this situation as well. Hp could conceivably make more, and at a higher price if needed to cover increased cost, or license production to some other company willing to do so. That they don't/won't speaks to them having a reason to do so. My money would be on not cannibalizing sales from their other calculators (which, let's be honest, are pretty damn expensive). I'm less likely to blame people for taking advantage of a reality than I am HP for making that reality. Let's not forget HP controls supply in this instance.
As for the NES system, what we have are people taking advantage of what is likely a short term supply problem. The cost of these systems is really a premium on people who are not willing to wait for more to come, since I think it's likely that Nintendo will make more.
As for the NES system, what we have are people taking advantage of what is likely a short term supply problem. The cost of these systems is really a premium on people who are not willing to wait for more to come, since I think it's likely that Nintendo will make more.
I wouldn't say blame in the sense that it implies fault wherein consumers had reasonable expectations to not exist. The 15c was clearly limited production targeting a very niche market (professional scientists and engineers of a certain era). The dubiousness of its release was in the sheer number of them being immediately relisted at super-inflated prices on zero-day.
History tells us that HP made a very clear investment bringing the original 15c to market; it's their IP and their prerogative. I simply can't find reason to fault HP for their business decision, which was likely driven by overall product relevance than cannibalizing sales; 33s and 35s were the only other RPN scientific alternatives at the time, and they're both quite distinct from the 15c. In today's age of touchscreen smart phone proliferation, affordable licensed emulators[1][2] which scale to screen fill that void elegantly...unless you're a modern 20-something-ish Luddite like myself and still don't own a smartphone.
[1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hp.hp15c15...
[2] https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/hewlett-packard-15c-scientif...
History tells us that HP made a very clear investment bringing the original 15c to market; it's their IP and their prerogative. I simply can't find reason to fault HP for their business decision, which was likely driven by overall product relevance than cannibalizing sales; 33s and 35s were the only other RPN scientific alternatives at the time, and they're both quite distinct from the 15c. In today's age of touchscreen smart phone proliferation, affordable licensed emulators[1][2] which scale to screen fill that void elegantly...unless you're a modern 20-something-ish Luddite like myself and still don't own a smartphone.
[1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hp.hp15c15...
[2] https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/hewlett-packard-15c-scientif...
If you're being "forced" to pay $600 for a $60 item because you must buy one right now, perhaps you need to stop and question the nature of your relationship with that person.
If you are so bothered by having to wait for them to come back onto the market at $60 that it hurts you (as opposed to, say, just being a minor annoyance), perhaps you need to stop and question the nature of your relationship with yourself.
If you are so bothered by having to wait for them to come back onto the market at $60 that it hurts you (as opposed to, say, just being a minor annoyance), perhaps you need to stop and question the nature of your relationship with yourself.
A thing is worth what another is willing to pay for it.
Nobody needs it to survive. Nobody must give it to someone else. Those who find it worth $600 have the opportunity to buy one, rather than not getting one because they sold out too fast. And there's nothing stopping Nintendo from making more until everyone willing to buy it at $60 (if only to turn around and resell it for 10x) gets one.
I'm tempted to call this a "0th world problem". It's a game. You'll live without it, or at least until you can buy one for list price. Heck, wait a little longer and you can get one for $10.
Nobody needs it to survive. Nobody must give it to someone else. Those who find it worth $600 have the opportunity to buy one, rather than not getting one because they sold out too fast. And there's nothing stopping Nintendo from making more until everyone willing to buy it at $60 (if only to turn around and resell it for 10x) gets one.
I'm tempted to call this a "0th world problem". It's a game. You'll live without it, or at least until you can buy one for list price. Heck, wait a little longer and you can get one for $10.
This argument is ridiculous. Otherwise there would be no such thing as luxury goods.
What does luxury goods have to do with anything? A luxury good isn't a regular good that's simply been marked up 10x.
That's very nearly the definition of luxury goods, given changes to elasticity with income, with it being explicitly so for veblen goods.
You can't just take any product, mark it up 10x, and call it a luxury good. People would laugh at you and buy the regular one. A luxury good has to have some reason to justify its luxury status.
In this particular case, the $60 NES Classic is already a luxury good. Marking it up 10x doesn't make it more of a luxury good, it just either means people who actually want to use the damn thing can't afford to, or must pay exorbitant prices.
In this particular case, the $60 NES Classic is already a luxury good. Marking it up 10x doesn't make it more of a luxury good, it just either means people who actually want to use the damn thing can't afford to, or must pay exorbitant prices.
http://www.barneys.com/product/golden-goose-distressed-super...
You would be surprised.
You would be surprised.
Or to take another example, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkin_bag
Edit: here's the Planet Money podcast episode I heard about them on: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/12/25/460870534/episo...
Edit: here's the Planet Money podcast episode I heard about them on: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/12/25/460870534/episo...
Sometimes "luxury" is being the first to have something. Some find it worth $540 to have one of the first.
Um isn't that exactly what designer purses and clothes are? A $300 pair of jeans doesn't cost 100x more to make than a $30 pair of jeans.
A $300 pair of jeans also isn't indistinguishable from a $30 pair. And you're talking fashion here, where the value is derived from the associated brand. That's not at all the case with people buying up a $60 item and reselling it for $600. They are providing literally no value at all to the buyer.
I don't agree that arbitrage hurts consumers (in most cases.) As I said in my sibling comment, arbitrage hurts producers—but it tends to help consumers. If you assume that a good is finite by definition (e.g. a concert ticket), then arbitrage helps the good reach the people who value it the most.
Imagine a world where all concert tickets, no matter where in the stadium they are, cost $60. Imagine that there is no such thing as arbitrage. Obviously, in such a world, the tickets for the best seats will sell out first, since they're the most valuable. But they won't necessarily be well-allocated; they might be sold to people who don't actually care much about where they sit.
Now, introduce arbitrage (i.e. scalpers.) Suddenly, the tickets for the good seats, that are worth more than $60, are able to have that information built into their price. Now people who value seeing the concert from the best seats at $120, won't lose out to people who only valued those same seats at $60, but happened to get there first.
The people who are willing to pay $120, of course, might just be twice as rich, and therefore have about the same utility calculus as the people willing to spend $60 (i.e. it doesn't matter which of the two get the ticket.) But assuming two people with the same income, the one who is willing to pay more should get the ticket. They're willing to trade more of their happiness for it, so it probably will make them more happy.
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In the case of something like concert tickets, the way to fix this is for the producer themselves to price things at the prices the market will bear, such that they serve the role for the market that scalpers would do otherwise. To soak up all the arbitrage-able value themselves.
But in cases that aren't like concert tickets—and consumer electronics certainly qualifies—the "right thing to do" is to just make more of the thing. Scalpers don't exist when a company is relying on unit economics of profit margins for their total profits, and will gladly up supply to meet demand (and will also attempt to predict initial demand, and bring initial supply online so as to meet that as well.)
Companies can choose not to do this, of course. Mainly, companies avoid doing this because their profits aren't built around unit economics. Neither Prada bags nor Magic: The Gathering "legendary" cards are produced to meet demand; they're instead produced to be fought over.
But if the company does build their profits on unit economics, then that leaves you with two options for why they're 'underproducing': either they have to, because they have a tight logistics pipeline and the product wouldn't be revenue-positive if they made that pipeline "wider" for the sake of higher initial production (as happens with each new iPhone); or they're just doing it to have some of the "cachet" of the collector's items rub off on them.
In both cases arbitrage will necessarily happen. In the first case, the company themselves are mostly blameless. In the second, it's entirely the company's "fault" that people are paying $600.
Either way, this arbitrage is still helping consumers—at the expense of the company. But when it's done for cachet, it's certainly a "hoist by their own petard" sort of situation: the company are throwing away money they could have made, and letting scalpers pick it up, all for the sake of signalling (advertising) that they're a classy company (which—if people don't already believe this, they're not likely to start just because of one event like this.)
---
Mind you, Nintendo is probably in the former category, not the latter. The production run for the Classic NES is probably on a minimal pipeline, designed to not leave Nintendo with any units left over once the buying is done.
Imagine a world where all concert tickets, no matter where in the stadium they are, cost $60. Imagine that there is no such thing as arbitrage. Obviously, in such a world, the tickets for the best seats will sell out first, since they're the most valuable. But they won't necessarily be well-allocated; they might be sold to people who don't actually care much about where they sit.
Now, introduce arbitrage (i.e. scalpers.) Suddenly, the tickets for the good seats, that are worth more than $60, are able to have that information built into their price. Now people who value seeing the concert from the best seats at $120, won't lose out to people who only valued those same seats at $60, but happened to get there first.
The people who are willing to pay $120, of course, might just be twice as rich, and therefore have about the same utility calculus as the people willing to spend $60 (i.e. it doesn't matter which of the two get the ticket.) But assuming two people with the same income, the one who is willing to pay more should get the ticket. They're willing to trade more of their happiness for it, so it probably will make them more happy.
---
In the case of something like concert tickets, the way to fix this is for the producer themselves to price things at the prices the market will bear, such that they serve the role for the market that scalpers would do otherwise. To soak up all the arbitrage-able value themselves.
But in cases that aren't like concert tickets—and consumer electronics certainly qualifies—the "right thing to do" is to just make more of the thing. Scalpers don't exist when a company is relying on unit economics of profit margins for their total profits, and will gladly up supply to meet demand (and will also attempt to predict initial demand, and bring initial supply online so as to meet that as well.)
Companies can choose not to do this, of course. Mainly, companies avoid doing this because their profits aren't built around unit economics. Neither Prada bags nor Magic: The Gathering "legendary" cards are produced to meet demand; they're instead produced to be fought over.
But if the company does build their profits on unit economics, then that leaves you with two options for why they're 'underproducing': either they have to, because they have a tight logistics pipeline and the product wouldn't be revenue-positive if they made that pipeline "wider" for the sake of higher initial production (as happens with each new iPhone); or they're just doing it to have some of the "cachet" of the collector's items rub off on them.
In both cases arbitrage will necessarily happen. In the first case, the company themselves are mostly blameless. In the second, it's entirely the company's "fault" that people are paying $600.
Either way, this arbitrage is still helping consumers—at the expense of the company. But when it's done for cachet, it's certainly a "hoist by their own petard" sort of situation: the company are throwing away money they could have made, and letting scalpers pick it up, all for the sake of signalling (advertising) that they're a classy company (which—if people don't already believe this, they're not likely to start just because of one event like this.)
---
Mind you, Nintendo is probably in the former category, not the latter. The production run for the Classic NES is probably on a minimal pipeline, designed to not leave Nintendo with any units left over once the buying is done.
Arbitrage does not help consumers. Arbitrage helps the subset of consumers that can afford the higher prices, but it hurts the consumers that can't. Your example with concert tickets only makes sense if all consumers have the same amount of discretionary income, but that's not representative of the real world.
The thing is, in the case where arbitrage doesn't exist, people without discretionary income still lose—because people with discretionary income can trade that income for someone else's time, which they can use to reserve more slots in any sort of a non-monetarily-determined distribution system (paying them to stand in line for them to get a first-come-first-served finite good; paying them to enter a raffle for them; etc.)
Adding arbitrage just makes this process more efficient, by allowing the richer consumers to express their desires directly, rather than having to hire someone (or, more likely, pay a service to hire someone, or use someone they already retain for miscellaneous tasks) to spend their time (exchanged for money) to acquire the good. Either way, richer consumers will preferentially acquire goods in a market; that's one of the fundamental properties of markets, and can't really be divorced from them.
Adding arbitrage just makes this process more efficient, by allowing the richer consumers to express their desires directly, rather than having to hire someone (or, more likely, pay a service to hire someone, or use someone they already retain for miscellaneous tasks) to spend their time (exchanged for money) to acquire the good. Either way, richer consumers will preferentially acquire goods in a market; that's one of the fundamental properties of markets, and can't really be divorced from them.
This thing is a gimmick, just download the games you want to play on Wii's virtual console.
Oh no, I'm so sorry to hear that you're hurt! Where does it hurt with regard to your feelings?
In the mean time, you can remedy the hurt with an SD card, and a Raspberry Pi Zero that you could buy at the nearest MicroCenter for the price of 0.99 and half an hour of loading RetroPie on it.
In the mean time, you can remedy the hurt with an SD card, and a Raspberry Pi Zero that you could buy at the nearest MicroCenter for the price of 0.99 and half an hour of loading RetroPie on it.
I really don't see why Nintendo didn't produce a bit more on launch - I mean, they're not some kickstarter newbie - don't they have some skills in demand-forecasting?
When you hear about how the latest Nintendo is sold out everywhere, it makes you want one more.
They have slow production on purpose. If you could walk into any store and get one, it wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.
They have slow production on purpose. If you could walk into any store and get one, it wouldn't be nearly as big a deal.
Not to mention that having the production capacity to meet initial demand on a popular product would be an huge waste of money.
Best case scenario, a week or two after launch, the vast majority of that capacity would be sitting idle after the initial rush is over and the purchase rate tapers off. Worst case scenario, the product isn't as popular as you anticipated and you've got a big ol' writedown to deal with. (Atari anyone? Blackberry tablet?)
Best case scenario, a week or two after launch, the vast majority of that capacity would be sitting idle after the initial rush is over and the purchase rate tapers off. Worst case scenario, the product isn't as popular as you anticipated and you've got a big ol' writedown to deal with. (Atari anyone? Blackberry tablet?)
Plus, you can just go to any garage sale and buy one of the original consoles with 100s of games for like $20
I don't seek out garage sales but look for old Nintendos when I end up at one and I never see them, never mind for cheap with a pile of games.
It spikes demand. Crazy parents run all over the place looking for it.
The winners are Nintendo, who gets sales in the 1Q, which is normally death for this kind of product, and the retailers, who get parents visiting daily and buying other crap.
My brother spent weeks looking for the "cream pie in the face game" last year. In the process, he picked up a half dozen other board games.
The winners are Nintendo, who gets sales in the 1Q, which is normally death for this kind of product, and the retailers, who get parents visiting daily and buying other crap.
My brother spent weeks looking for the "cream pie in the face game" last year. In the process, he picked up a half dozen other board games.
I don't see how people buying knockoff (but in-stock!) consoles will hep Nintendo sell more Nintendos
Nintendo deserves some of the blame. They most likely created this shortage on purpose to create press.
This is one way that markets clear prices when demand edges production. There's are many ways to do it, for example auctions. In this case the price sensitivity of the market is lower than the producer set, so the market is willing to pay more for the good than the product is selling it at.
When this pricing mismatch happens, there is the ability to close the pricing gap through repricing by a third party otherwise known as arbitrage.
This is one of the more important functional requirements for a market and the producer can take advantage of this based on how they price. Nintendo could have priced the system much higher and seen the same output but it may not have made as big if a splash, so really it's Nintendo driving this frenzy because they and all other major companies are good at this.
It's not a big it's a feature (really in this case).
When this pricing mismatch happens, there is the ability to close the pricing gap through repricing by a third party otherwise known as arbitrage.
This is one of the more important functional requirements for a market and the producer can take advantage of this based on how they price. Nintendo could have priced the system much higher and seen the same output but it may not have made as big if a splash, so really it's Nintendo driving this frenzy because they and all other major companies are good at this.
It's not a big it's a feature (really in this case).
Agreed. It's quite sad that the impetus is on Nintendo to flood the market with product. As of this post, there were 3,800+ posts on eBay[1]; there's at least an entire page-full listing Buy It Now @ $1000 or more.
[1] http://www.ebay.com/sch/?_nkw=nes%20classic%20edition
[1] http://www.ebay.com/sch/?_nkw=nes%20classic%20edition
Why do you think this is morally bankrupt? We aren't talking about wheat, but a superfluous luxury item. Where's the moral argument?
Why doesn't Nintendo just raise their prices to where supply equals demand? They're leaving So much money on the table for scalpers.
Or why not first release an expensive limited edition while they scale up production?
Or why not first release an expensive limited edition while they scale up production?
If Nintendo could price discriminate perfectly, they most certainly would, but there are negative externalities (i.e. bad PR).
I've wondered why retailers don't do the following: set MSRP to $X, but charge $X + $Y, but donate $Y to charity, and advertise the fact. This is basically a variation of bundling, except people aren't too happy about that, either. It's easy to be emotional about greedy scalpers or greedy retailers (that forces me to buy $Y of crap), but most people don't think of greed and, say children dying of cancer, in the same train of thought.
I've wondered why retailers don't do the following: set MSRP to $X, but charge $X + $Y, but donate $Y to charity, and advertise the fact. This is basically a variation of bundling, except people aren't too happy about that, either. It's easy to be emotional about greedy scalpers or greedy retailers (that forces me to buy $Y of crap), but most people don't think of greed and, say children dying of cancer, in the same train of thought.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Because the value of the free marketing they've just generated dwarfs the value that's being captured by scalpers.
these things would've cost next to nothing to make, and they figure they can sell a large enough volume at a low price that they'd net more than upping the price slightly and selling substantially less.
> Why doesn't Nintendo just raise their prices to where supply equals demand?
"Raise prices" is not the solution to all of life's problems.
"Raise prices" is not the solution to all of life's problems.
I wonder if these things are timed for release once a target audience hits a certain age? What is that age?
It was about 8 years between 1st gen consoles (Atari, Intellivision, Colecovision) and 2nd gen (Nintendo). The retro-rerelease of 1st gen was about 8 years ago. I am 45 and am nostalgic about 1st gen. I was in high school for 2nd gen; no nostalgia, uninterested.
So do these retro-rerelease target those in their late 30's. Mid life crisis yearning for nostalgia?
It was about 8 years between 1st gen consoles (Atari, Intellivision, Colecovision) and 2nd gen (Nintendo). The retro-rerelease of 1st gen was about 8 years ago. I am 45 and am nostalgic about 1st gen. I was in high school for 2nd gen; no nostalgia, uninterested.
So do these retro-rerelease target those in their late 30's. Mid life crisis yearning for nostalgia?
I think probably the band of people born from about 1975-82 are probably the right segment. http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2010/04/us-births-per-year...
What was the "Atari, Intellivision, Colecovision" retro-release? Seems like a newish phenomenon due to falling cost of production.
Objectively, (if you put a complete novice kid in front of a console), NES and SNES's good/great games are the best.
Objectively, (if you put a complete novice kid in front of a console), NES and SNES's good/great games are the best.
madengr is right, the Atari ones have been available since 2004. They've put out a new version of it every other year or so. This year is their 7th version of the Atari Flashback. https://www.amazon.com/Atari-Flashback-7-Classic-Game-Consol...
There's ones for Intellivision (https://www.amazon.com/IntelliVision-AtGames-Flashback-Class... ) and Colecovision ( https://www.amazon.com/ColecoVision-AtGames-Flashback-Classi... ) too, but those have only been available for the last few years.
There's ones for Intellivision (https://www.amazon.com/IntelliVision-AtGames-Flashback-Class... ) and Colecovision ( https://www.amazon.com/ColecoVision-AtGames-Flashback-Classi... ) too, but those have only been available for the last few years.
And there's been a Sega Genesis Classic Game Console (with 80 games) since 2012 or so.
https://amzn.com/B01KV6E72O
https://amzn.com/B01KV6E72O
It seems silly to me to allocate a product by the vageries of refresh rates and server responsiveness.
It seems like Amazon could come up with many other ideas for allocating a limited product. There's no rule that says it has to be based on the millisecond ordered.
For example how about a game of chance (or skill?) to let people compete for the product? It would feel a lot more fulfilling than an error page. And it would give them good brand interaction.
It seems like Amazon could come up with many other ideas for allocating a limited product. There's no rule that says it has to be based on the millisecond ordered.
For example how about a game of chance (or skill?) to let people compete for the product? It would feel a lot more fulfilling than an error page. And it would give them good brand interaction.
Eh, or what about loyalty to amazon? If they had honestly messaged me and said that because of the age of my account and amount I had spent that I would get to be part of the first group in line to purchase, I might have even bought one just for that reason. Not that they needed more people buying them, but my loyalty to them would probably only go up.
On the flip side, stuff like this just sours the whole thing. Why have a sign up page to be alerted when something's available if you know it's going to be sold out immediately?
Was there even any sign that this was going to be under supplied like this? I didn't get that impression from the reviews/previews I read.
It'd be one thing if the product just came out, had a lot of media fanfare and sold out due to low volume. I mean that's reality right. But the fact that it appeared in weekly ads for stores all over the country. It's really expectation that hurts the most.
That's just causing hassle, distrust. Retail employees probably don't lke to get 50 extra calls a day for a product that will be in stock for 14 seconds. If I were a regional mgr I'd put VERY heavy pressure on corporate for say Target to NOT show ads for this product until reasonable levels of stock are guaranteed. Targets around the country got about 11 units. The one I went to only had 1 spare controller. Keep in mind that a good portion of the NES games are co-op.
There are 1800 target stores in the U.S. If they all got 11 units that means there were only 19,000 units for that store. I heard gamestops got about 5. Walmarts got about 6 units each.
So 6 units to walmarts 5229 stores is about 31375 unit. Gamestops 4,434 stores at 5 units each get 21700
Who knows what amazon stocked at. Would it be reasonable to say amazon got 10000 units? I mean they sold out in a minute. Maybe it was less than that.
So those totals add up to 82,075 units. Let's round up, not forgetting the Best Buys, Microcenters, mom-pop shops and The 800 Toys R Us stores in the U.S. and say the United States got maybe 112,000 units total for the release.
That's just causing hassle, distrust. Retail employees probably don't lke to get 50 extra calls a day for a product that will be in stock for 14 seconds. If I were a regional mgr I'd put VERY heavy pressure on corporate for say Target to NOT show ads for this product until reasonable levels of stock are guaranteed. Targets around the country got about 11 units. The one I went to only had 1 spare controller. Keep in mind that a good portion of the NES games are co-op.
There are 1800 target stores in the U.S. If they all got 11 units that means there were only 19,000 units for that store. I heard gamestops got about 5. Walmarts got about 6 units each.
So 6 units to walmarts 5229 stores is about 31375 unit. Gamestops 4,434 stores at 5 units each get 21700
Who knows what amazon stocked at. Would it be reasonable to say amazon got 10000 units? I mean they sold out in a minute. Maybe it was less than that.
So those totals add up to 82,075 units. Let's round up, not forgetting the Best Buys, Microcenters, mom-pop shops and The 800 Toys R Us stores in the U.S. and say the United States got maybe 112,000 units total for the release.
Nintendo needs to come out with an official retro wifi appliance that allows one to buy classic games from an App Store and play 2 player games over the network.
The Amazon reviews got brigaded with 1 star reviews. They should work on preventing this.
Why? Nintendo decided to once again screw over their fans with their supply games. People are getting back at them for it.
Why? Because bitching at Nintendo is not a review of the product. Obviously.
Patience!!!!!!!!!
You are driving me insane! Go outside and play.
You are driving me insane! Go outside and play.
Only half of my Nintendo holiday arbitrage attempts have been successful.
There will be limited availability for a short time, then a flood of product.
There will be limited availability for a short time, then a flood of product.
When I was younger, half the fun was trying to obtain the limited availability consoles!! Now it's no longer fun, just refresh a page and hope resellers don't buy up inventory before you can grab one.
I'm still impressed that my mom somehow managed to get me an n64 for that first Christmas they were available! I was in disbelief since I was certain they were impossible to get. 13yo me had all the local toy store #s memorized and I'd call every day asking if they received any shipments. No dice.
Shadows of the Empire on Christmas morning was so awesome! Tripping up those AT-ATs that morning was one of the more memorable moments in my gaming history.
A few months prior, for my best friend's September birthday, his mom took us to Toysrus and let him pick either the just released n64 +1 game OR the on-sale SegaCD and a bunch of games. He chose... poorly.
I'm still impressed that my mom somehow managed to get me an n64 for that first Christmas they were available! I was in disbelief since I was certain they were impossible to get. 13yo me had all the local toy store #s memorized and I'd call every day asking if they received any shipments. No dice.
Shadows of the Empire on Christmas morning was so awesome! Tripping up those AT-ATs that morning was one of the more memorable moments in my gaming history.
A few months prior, for my best friend's September birthday, his mom took us to Toysrus and let him pick either the just released n64 +1 game OR the on-sale SegaCD and a bunch of games. He chose... poorly.
"Nintendowned: Amazon sells out of the NES Classic Edition in (null) seconds"
This is the headline I am seeing at the moment. Seems like the guy who was supposed to update the time forgot to do so.
This is the headline I am seeing at the moment. Seems like the guy who was supposed to update the time forgot to do so.
Honestly, I was going to buy one. But the itch will probably pass by the time they're back in stock. Since I'm filling that itch with emulators now.
At an impulse buy price point, I wonder how many unrecoverable lost sales are caused by lack of supply.
At an impulse buy price point, I wonder how many unrecoverable lost sales are caused by lack of supply.
Agreed. All the sell-out did was frustrate me a bit then set me on a mission to create the ultimate all-in-one raspberry pi image.
Put lakka on an SD card. Put your roms on one of those super-cheap 128gb USB sticks that exist these days. Use PS3 controllers. Done.
http://www.lakka.tv
(I know I've posted lakka twice in this thread, but I'm not affiliated, just a happy user)
http://www.lakka.tv
(I know I've posted lakka twice in this thread, but I'm not affiliated, just a happy user)
Mission accomplished? I would be interested ;-)
The little machine is nice, but I wish they simply had some kind of an app store for old game ROMs. I would pay the price of a mobile game for old Mario Bros etc. Instead I have to download them from shady sources.
This kind of stuff is par for the course with Nintendo hardware from what I can tell. Is it deliberate? If so, does perceived scarcity drive more sales, or are they just sick of warehousing unsold products?
Well, they did just get free advertising in the form of this TechCrunch article. Wouldn't be surprised if other news outlets pick on up on the story as well, with the spin of "the hot new Christmas toy".
From that perspective, having short supply on release day seems like a decent plan. Once they get the publicity, I bet the supply increases to match demand within the following month.
From that perspective, having short supply on release day seems like a decent plan. Once they get the publicity, I bet the supply increases to match demand within the following month.
Thought of this when I was browsing AliExpress for Singles Day, today, and found this:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Video-Game-Projector-PGS-Con...
Available cheap for another 8 hours, maybe something to tide them over?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Video-Game-Projector-PGS-Con...
Available cheap for another 8 hours, maybe something to tide them over?
The fact that these projectors have such low resolution, playing retro games is about all they are good for.
I had the chance to buy one yesterday morning and I didn't take it up. That was my first hearing about it and I gotta say, beyond resell value I don't see the appeal of this thing.
You can make a smaller NES with a Pi Zero and rented time on a 3D printer. I don't think people would have a problem trading use of cartridges for a much larger, cross platform selection.
Is this a business opportunity?
You can make a smaller NES with a Pi Zero and rented time on a 3D printer. I don't think people would have a problem trading use of cartridges for a much larger, cross platform selection.
Is this a business opportunity?
Found the guy that has never tried emulation on a Pi.
Can you elaborate? Ive never used an emulator. I'm thinking NES games have a very low need for cpu / mem resources. Do they not run as good as the original?
I've tried an emulation box with RetroPie and the controller drivers are hard to find (at least for xbox 360 wired controller), the controls are difficult to set up (requiring manual edits to config files, which you need to plug a keyboard into your rpi to do), the controls are glitchy after you set them up, and the interface is not intuitive at all. If someone has a better idea for pi emulation I would really like to try it.
Use Lakka, not RetroPie. Use a PS3 controller—360 would work, but its dpad is terrible, and both work with no extra effort. PS3 even works over bluetooth with little to no fiddling. Only trick is you have to find the "right" roms (those blessed by various projects that record hashes of accurate rom dumps) or Lakka/Retroarch's auto-rom-scanning won't work, though you can still select roms manually. Small price to pay for the level of "just works" that Lakka provides.
[EDIT] links:
http://www.lakka.tv
Which romsets to use for various systems:
http://libretro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6661
[EDIT] links:
http://www.lakka.tv
Which romsets to use for various systems:
http://libretro.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6661
They had a bunch of special purpose chips that make emulation hard---both computationally intensive, and finnicky around details. For example, a real NES will glitch differently when many sprites are on the same row. Some games depend on this to be playable!
There are sound output bugs that make using any emulator terrible. The Pi 3 can barely handle SNES games.
All of these outages could be prevented by opening sales randomly in time windows and in small waves. Or with preordering. The same applies to sales with price reductions, etc. All these companies shoot themselves in the foot with stunts like that. Why not make it more expensive if there is such a demand, anyway?
> Why not make it more expensive if there is such a demand
Is demand really high enough to support a higher price? Nintendo is infamous for putting out a short supply.
I don't understand why Amazon can't just take preorders for the next batch.
Is demand really high enough to support a higher price? Nintendo is infamous for putting out a short supply.
I don't understand why Amazon can't just take preorders for the next batch.
They may have all 'sold' but there are 4,000+ available on eBay at the moment.
idk what happened but at 1400PST on the money i loaded it... "add to cart" and "buy now" buttons were there but their function was inoperable. That page was broken for hours after that. And now it just says not available. ugh
i continuously got an empty shopping cart everytime i tried to add it.
i am pretty sure the site was hit so hard they just 404'd the URL so it wouldn't load anything. for a while the item page was blank while amazon.com continued to load.
i am pretty sure the site was hit so hard they just 404'd the URL so it wouldn't load anything. for a while the item page was blank while amazon.com continued to load.
It is such an overrated product, I have one, tried it and will send it back to amazon asap. It is Bad in so many levels, the short Controller cable is only one.
The short controller would suck, but it's kind of a requirements for compatibility with the wiimote. It 'speaks' i2c and at the data rates they require it's unlikely they could go much longer.
Amazon should do popular items like this using a lottery system to hurt the advantage bots, scripts, and people with lower latency have.
- You can enter the item lottery for a longer period (e.g. 60 minutes).
- Lottery winners are picked at random, not based on entry time.
- Max one entry per household (remove entries with duplicate mailing addresses, duplicate credit cards, and duplicate email addresses).
- Once someone wins they have a window to purchase (e.g. 3 hours). If they fail to purchase then the lottery picks a new winner.
Now obviously cheats will still exist, but at least they're all on a fairer playing field with normal purchasers.
- You can enter the item lottery for a longer period (e.g. 60 minutes).
- Lottery winners are picked at random, not based on entry time.
- Max one entry per household (remove entries with duplicate mailing addresses, duplicate credit cards, and duplicate email addresses).
- Once someone wins they have a window to purchase (e.g. 3 hours). If they fail to purchase then the lottery picks a new winner.
Now obviously cheats will still exist, but at least they're all on a fairer playing field with normal purchasers.
MBA Interview pro-tip: Amazon should make NES a Prime-only item.
Wow very smart! How do businesses not think of these things?
I even got an impression from their nes classic page like they were saying "meh, we are not really sure if we sell this why do you want it"
I even got an impression from their nes classic page like they were saying "meh, we are not really sure if we sell this why do you want it"
Sounds like Nintendo, along with a bunch of other companies, need to take a page out of USSR's book. The way it worked there is that you put your name on the list to buy, say, a car. And when the car is actually manufactured, you get to buy it. Big product launches like this could really benefit from a system like that.
I know some places already do this: x.ai comes to mind. They even had a thing where you could move yourself up in the queue by getting others to sign up.
I know some places already do this: x.ai comes to mind. They even had a thing where you could move yourself up in the queue by getting others to sign up.
It is true that many consumers would benefit from such systems, but unfortunately, drumming up demand by trickling supply into the market is Nintendo's modus operandi.
could have just done pre orders like apple and slip the shipping date as the list gets longer. It's not like companies don't have a solution. It's just Nintendo being Nintendo.
This actually does happen with some car manufacturers. The one I'm most familiar with (having experience with the process) is Porsche with their GT cars and "collector grade vehicles".
Want the next 911 GT3 RS? The best way to guarantee you get one is to give a dealer a deposit (usually just $5000) for "the next GT3 RS" at least 3 years before the vehicle is officially announced. You do have to wait for that dealer to get an allocation (so often you'll place a deposit with multiple dealers who sell a lot of 911s), but when they pop you get yours assuming you were early enough in line. A few long-term repeat customers may get bumped ahead of you in line, but at the end of the day you'll get your car.
There was a lot of anger at the availability of the Cayman GT4, but despite never being a prior Porsche owner I had the opportunity to pass on it twice (for a much harder to get Boxster Spyder) because I knew how the process went, and had deposits for non-existant cars with multiple dealers years before they were announced.
Want the next 911 GT3 RS? The best way to guarantee you get one is to give a dealer a deposit (usually just $5000) for "the next GT3 RS" at least 3 years before the vehicle is officially announced. You do have to wait for that dealer to get an allocation (so often you'll place a deposit with multiple dealers who sell a lot of 911s), but when they pop you get yours assuming you were early enough in line. A few long-term repeat customers may get bumped ahead of you in line, but at the end of the day you'll get your car.
There was a lot of anger at the availability of the Cayman GT4, but despite never being a prior Porsche owner I had the opportunity to pass on it twice (for a much harder to get Boxster Spyder) because I knew how the process went, and had deposits for non-existant cars with multiple dealers years before they were announced.
The way it worked in the USSR was actually more like: you put your name on the list to buy a car. The local party boss' cousin wants a car, too, and he doesn't have to wait on the list, he gets the car that's being manufactured. And the factory director's brother wants a car, too. And his nephew. And the guy he is trading cars to for steel to make more cars. And that guy's cousin wants a car, too. All these people get to skip ahead of you on the list, because they have better connections than you do. So you wait ten years or so for an ordinary car.
It's not really related, but it reminds me of this joke about buying cars in the USSR as told by Ronald Reagan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLW7r4o2_Ow
This is accurate.
Anybody know if Sega Genesis is also coming out in similar fashion?
I doubt it. I walked past a whole shelf of Sega Genesis emulation boxes at Target. That and the Atari Flashback 7 seem to be heavily stocked.
Days spent in my childhood...
I highly doubt that. My guess is that third party resellers used bots to purchase them all.
Why wouldn't tc come to the same conclusion?
Edit. yep here's one on eBay for $500+:
http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Nintendo-NES-Classic-Edition-Conso...