Why the United States has the best research universities(aeaweb.org)
aeaweb.org
Why the United States has the best research universities
https://www.aeaweb.org/research/research-universities-incentives-resources-virtuous-circles-us
261 comments
So, the ascent of U.S. universities to high status on a worldwide scale, happened in the first half of the 20th century really. Why? Well, because Europe was tearing itself apart in two world wars, and the U.S. sat out the first half of both of those, while receiving a lot of talent fleeing those wars. If you have the money, and the former top-of-the-heap has bombed their wealth into rubble, it doesn't require any magic formula to use that money to get top notch research talent. I don't think any of the rest of what he discusses is necessary to explain this.
This is a general misconception you hear that America's dominance in the world (and universities) was due to the "old world" imploding in WWII. It obviously helped the US but already in the early second half of the 19th C America was dominating the industrial revolution, by a wide margin, and had cemented it's place as top GDP (overall and per capita), top global talent magnet, and top overall technical education levels.
IMO America has been the center of innovation with top universities because it is the top place where talent, globally, wants to go to make their fortune. This has been going on for more than a century.
Whatever country is the top magnet for global talent is going to have the top university systems as well as be the center of the world scene long term. E.g. if another country, say China, wants to succeed into this role it must be the top destination for global talent.
IMO America has been the center of innovation with top universities because it is the top place where talent, globally, wants to go to make their fortune. This has been going on for more than a century.
Whatever country is the top magnet for global talent is going to have the top university systems as well as be the center of the world scene long term. E.g. if another country, say China, wants to succeed into this role it must be the top destination for global talent.
This is just factually untrue the GDP of the British empire was much larger than that of the US and in terms of scientific innovation Germany was widely considered to be at the forefront with France and UK as equals. The US was largely a scientific backwater.
I do not know what textbooks you read or economic history lectures you took to reach your conclusion. This is the second half of the 19th C, the US was absolutely dominating the industrial revolution in the era that produced the Carnegies Rockefellers JP Morgans and dozens of others of similar stature. Entire new industries and processes like interchangeable parts, telegraph, petroleum products, railraods, rise of malls/retail, electricity, meat packing, industrial farming, investment banking etc. was all either originating from or reaching heights in the US, which also had the highest patents per capita rate, and an international reputation for a general population that was technically competent for the industrial rev.
(Not to mention the gov was essentially giving away 160 acre plots to anyone who wanted to settle elsewhere, which created intense pressure to mechanize due to menial labor shortages, not to mention a broader based prosperity.)
(Not to mention the gov was essentially giving away 160 acre plots to anyone who wanted to settle elsewhere, which created intense pressure to mechanize due to menial labor shortages, not to mention a broader based prosperity.)
> It obviously helped the US but already in the early second half of the 19th C America was dominating the industrial revolution, by a wide margin, and had cemented it's place as top GDP (overall and per capita)
If you look it up you can see for yourself that you aren’t saying true things.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7174996.stm
The UK’s GDP per capita was still massively higher than the US’s as late as 1870. It didn’t overtake until 1890.
And the US obviously had a relatively late industrial revolution and adoption of things like railroads because they began in other countries and were imported.
If you look it up you can see for yourself that you aren’t saying true things.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7174996.stm
The UK’s GDP per capita was still massively higher than the US’s as late as 1870. It didn’t overtake until 1890.
And the US obviously had a relatively late industrial revolution and adoption of things like railroads because they began in other countries and were imported.
I think like usual reality is more complex. The reason why America became such a economic powerhouse by the beginning of the 20th century was clearly the large scale immigration to a land that was generally considered the land of opportunities, without the crust of established economic structures in Europe. Someone from any social background could make it there. Due to this background there was a lot of aversion to "elites" forming which I have seen given as reasons for the high top income tax and the strong actions against monopolies . Now the growth founded also by large scale displacement and killing of the native population and slavery would also have contributed.
I don't think that alone would have made the US into the superpower it is today, in particular in terms of science. That was clearly a result of the two world wars that devastated Europe. If you look at the scientific discoveries the US really became the powerhouse after/during WW2.
It's somewhat ironic that the US which was founded on escaping the large "unfair" inequalities of old Europe and a strong anti-establishment/anti-elite basis has since become a beacon of a new elite/establishment and inequality. The "anti elitism" that was always part of the US psyche is now almost completely about intellectual elite (scientific/academic elite) not economic elite.
I don't think that alone would have made the US into the superpower it is today, in particular in terms of science. That was clearly a result of the two world wars that devastated Europe. If you look at the scientific discoveries the US really became the powerhouse after/during WW2.
It's somewhat ironic that the US which was founded on escaping the large "unfair" inequalities of old Europe and a strong anti-establishment/anti-elite basis has since become a beacon of a new elite/establishment and inequality. The "anti elitism" that was always part of the US psyche is now almost completely about intellectual elite (scientific/academic elite) not economic elite.
>It's somewhat ironic that the US which was founded on escaping the large "unfair" inequalities of old Europe and a strong anti-establishment/anti-elite basis has since become a beacon of a new elite/establishment and inequality.
It's probably one of those cyclical things in life. Your former greatness ends up becoming a burden that keeps growing. Eventually it'll become so heavy that things fall apart. From the ashes rises a new greatness that eventually...
It's probably one of those cyclical things in life. Your former greatness ends up becoming a burden that keeps growing. Eventually it'll become so heavy that things fall apart. From the ashes rises a new greatness that eventually...
US views on China repeatedly remind me of old-regime European commentary on a younger US.
Here's an example:
"The following comparison will illustrate my meaning. During the campaigns of the Revolution the French introduced a new system of tactics into the art of war, which perplexed the oldest generals, and very nearly destroyed the most ancient monarchies in Europe. They undertook (what had never before been attempted) to make shift without a number of things which had always been held to be indispensable in warfare; they required novel exertions on the part of their troops which no civilized nations had ever thought of; they achieved great actions in an incredibly short space of time; and they risked human life without hesitation to obtain the object in view. The French had less money and fewer men than their enemies; their resources were infinitely inferior; nevertheless they were constantly victorious, until their adversaries chose to imitate their example.
"The Americans have introduced a similar system into their commercial speculations; and they do for cheapness what the French did for conquest. The European sailor navigates with prudence; he only sets sail when the weather is favorable; if an unforseen accident befalls him, he puts into port; at night he furls a portion of his canvas; and when the whitening billows intimate the vicinity of land, he checks his way, and takes an observation of the sun. But the American neglects these precautions and braves these dangers. He weighs anchor in the midst of tempestuous gales; by night and by day he spreads his sheets to the wind; he repairs as he goes along such damage as his vessel may have sustained from the storm; and when he at last approaches the term of his voyage, he darts onward to the shore as if he already descried a port. The Americans are often shipwrecked, but no trader crosses the seas so rapidly. And as they perform the same distance in a shorter time, they can perform it at a cheaper rate.
"The European touches several times at different ports in the course of a long voyage; he loses a good deal of precious time in making the harbor, or in waiting for a favorable wind to leave it; and he pays daily dues to be allowed to remain there. The American starts from Boston to go to purchase tea in China; he arrives at Canton, stays there a few days, and then returns. In less than two years he has sailed as far as the entire circumference of the globe, and he has seen land but once. It is true that during a voyage of eight or ten months he has drunk brackish water and lived upon salt meat; that he has been in a continual contest with the sea, with disease, and with a tedious existence; but upon his return he can sell a pound of his tea for a half-penny less than the English merchant, and his purpose is accomplished."
--Alexis de Tocqueville, "Democracy in America"
http://resources.utulsa.edu/law/classes/rice/Jurisprudence/E...
"The following comparison will illustrate my meaning. During the campaigns of the Revolution the French introduced a new system of tactics into the art of war, which perplexed the oldest generals, and very nearly destroyed the most ancient monarchies in Europe. They undertook (what had never before been attempted) to make shift without a number of things which had always been held to be indispensable in warfare; they required novel exertions on the part of their troops which no civilized nations had ever thought of; they achieved great actions in an incredibly short space of time; and they risked human life without hesitation to obtain the object in view. The French had less money and fewer men than their enemies; their resources were infinitely inferior; nevertheless they were constantly victorious, until their adversaries chose to imitate their example.
"The Americans have introduced a similar system into their commercial speculations; and they do for cheapness what the French did for conquest. The European sailor navigates with prudence; he only sets sail when the weather is favorable; if an unforseen accident befalls him, he puts into port; at night he furls a portion of his canvas; and when the whitening billows intimate the vicinity of land, he checks his way, and takes an observation of the sun. But the American neglects these precautions and braves these dangers. He weighs anchor in the midst of tempestuous gales; by night and by day he spreads his sheets to the wind; he repairs as he goes along such damage as his vessel may have sustained from the storm; and when he at last approaches the term of his voyage, he darts onward to the shore as if he already descried a port. The Americans are often shipwrecked, but no trader crosses the seas so rapidly. And as they perform the same distance in a shorter time, they can perform it at a cheaper rate.
"The European touches several times at different ports in the course of a long voyage; he loses a good deal of precious time in making the harbor, or in waiting for a favorable wind to leave it; and he pays daily dues to be allowed to remain there. The American starts from Boston to go to purchase tea in China; he arrives at Canton, stays there a few days, and then returns. In less than two years he has sailed as far as the entire circumference of the globe, and he has seen land but once. It is true that during a voyage of eight or ten months he has drunk brackish water and lived upon salt meat; that he has been in a continual contest with the sea, with disease, and with a tedious existence; but upon his return he can sell a pound of his tea for a half-penny less than the English merchant, and his purpose is accomplished."
--Alexis de Tocqueville, "Democracy in America"
http://resources.utulsa.edu/law/classes/rice/Jurisprudence/E...
Nice quote, and fun read - thank you.
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Plus it might be one of those things were once you have momentum there's a positive feedback loop.
Top researchers may want to move to work with others in their field.
Top researchers may want to move to work with others in their field.
It wasn't just the U.S. receiving that talent. Latin America, particularly Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, and Chile also saw 10s of millions of European immigrants.[1] Germans, Italians, Jews, Poles, etc, as well as Japanese and Chinese. Canada and Australia also saw significant migration.
So the mere fact of the emigration of European talent doesn't quite answer the question. The role of European conflict driving emigration isn't at question here. But what distinguished U.S. schools? Why were they better able to leverage this accidental human bounty than other systems? It's not like there was a complete dearth of higher education institutions in Latin America. In the first few decades of the 20th century Argentina and Chile were some of the most well-developed nations on earth, scientifically and politically.
[1] Circa 2003 I met a 90-ish-something Mexican born, ethnic Irish docent in the Bisbee, AZ museum. His parents fled Ireland to Mexico and worked a farm in Sonora, then killed in conflict between the Mexican Army and, IIRC, Apaches. He and his older brother trekked through the desert for several days to cross (illegally, I might add) to the U.S. I always thought that was a fascinating story--a nexus of different historical threads that, as an American, you would never really consider together.
So the mere fact of the emigration of European talent doesn't quite answer the question. The role of European conflict driving emigration isn't at question here. But what distinguished U.S. schools? Why were they better able to leverage this accidental human bounty than other systems? It's not like there was a complete dearth of higher education institutions in Latin America. In the first few decades of the 20th century Argentina and Chile were some of the most well-developed nations on earth, scientifically and politically.
[1] Circa 2003 I met a 90-ish-something Mexican born, ethnic Irish docent in the Bisbee, AZ museum. His parents fled Ireland to Mexico and worked a farm in Sonora, then killed in conflict between the Mexican Army and, IIRC, Apaches. He and his older brother trekked through the desert for several days to cross (illegally, I might add) to the U.S. I always thought that was a fascinating story--a nexus of different historical threads that, as an American, you would never really consider together.
You might be interested by Operation Paperclip [0].
The US was actively looking for key scientific talent in then devastated Germany to bring back home after World War II.
This concentration of talent, coupled with intense investments in fundamental research during the Cold War and better living conditions for scientists made it an obvious choice for any academic to relocate to the United States.
Even today, the US immigration system still has a preference for foreigners who can meaningfully contribute to the advancement of science.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
The US was actively looking for key scientific talent in then devastated Germany to bring back home after World War II.
This concentration of talent, coupled with intense investments in fundamental research during the Cold War and better living conditions for scientists made it an obvious choice for any academic to relocate to the United States.
Even today, the US immigration system still has a preference for foreigners who can meaningfully contribute to the advancement of science.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
Although the Soviets had a very similar system (Operation Osoaviakhim) to get German scientists after the war, although less well known (and also a bit less voluntary on the part of the scientists)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
The Soviet's didn't really know how to properly make use of "their" Germans though, at least for working on concrete projects. Only very few designs of German teams actually made it into production (like the turboprop engines used in the Tu-95: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95), but the Soviets never trusted their Germans enough to really integrate them longterm with Russian teams, instead the goal was to extract the German knowledge as fast as possible and then "dump" them (most German engineers and researchers captured by the Soviets were allowed to return to Germany around the mid- to late-50s, leading to interesting, but ultimately doomed projects like the first German jet airliner Baade 152: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152).
Meanwhile the "American Germans" were welcomed, decided to make the US their new home and contributed heavily to the US space programme.
Meanwhile the "American Germans" were welcomed, decided to make the US their new home and contributed heavily to the US space programme.
Easy to explain because the German fascists made a perfect match with the American fascists, whilst Russian communists had a problem with German fascists, plus under Stalin/Berisha everybody had a problem, also communist Germans and communist Russians. They nevertheless built up the Russian rocket and nuclear program.
In the US the germans could build the rocket program by their own without much US interference, until Lyndon Johnson broke it up.
In the US the germans could build the rocket program by their own without much US interference, until Lyndon Johnson broke it up.
Could you please elaborate on how "American fascists" are playing a role here? Sounds far fetched.
I think s/he is hinting at the fact that many Europeans and Americans believed that Hitler had the right idea about race and religion. Eugenics was a big thing in the US between WW1 and WW2. I also remember reading that one of the main reasons the ivy-leagues decided to change its admission system from money and meritocracy to the "search for all round candidate" also partially stemmed from anti-semitism - all the essay and interview bullshit that we see today was created to find reasons to reject the "wrong kind". Some old Harvard or Yale (don't remember which) admission applications of candidates rejected even had hand written notes, "looks too much like a jew". ( https://www.businessinsider.in/education/harvard-is-being-ac... ).
I don't have any sources to back this up, but it seems to me that you highlight this fact yourself in your argument. The US had the stability, the institutions and finances to enable the emigres talent to do the work instead of (in the extreme example) of fleeting for their lives.
What made you think it was schools that took advantage of the situation ?
I think a huge fact is simply the massive population and tax base. A lot of academic research is funded by the federal government. Most countries simply do not have the population or means to afford such a wide variety of directed research programs as the NSF, NIH, DOE, NOAA, USDA, etc., not to mention research grants from defense agencies. Academics from other countries regularly move their careers here to get research funding, we don't even produce enough local talent for some fields to meet the need for research.
Most of the european scientists went to the already famous US universities, not to Argentina, Brazil or Chile. Europe basically lost every scientist before, during or after WW2 to the US. Probably the biggest brain drain in history.
e.g. "Operation Paperclip was a secret US intelligence program in which more than 1,600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians, [...]" -Wikipedia
e.g. "Operation Paperclip was a secret US intelligence program in which more than 1,600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians, [...]" -Wikipedia
Yes, so obvious.
I think this is also the explanation for American success in the 20th century. The United States as we know it is, like all empires, built on the spoils of war. The United States was able to capture the best and brightest scientists. These people were brought into a system whose structure and demands were dictated by the needs of a growing government and military. This is the fuel that drove American exceptionalism.
> built on the spoils of war
Negative, you may have confused the US with Rome. The US is the beneficiary of tremendous natural resources, temperate climate across a vast geography, natural isolation from external threats, and mostly very stable governmental structures.
Negative, you may have confused the US with Rome. The US is the beneficiary of tremendous natural resources, temperate climate across a vast geography, natural isolation from external threats, and mostly very stable governmental structures.
Those "tremendous natural resources" were all the result of the Indian wars. America was at war nearly constantly expanding its empire from 1775-1865.
Surely you didn't think north America was terra nullis or that the natives just willingly gave away all those natural resources to European colonists?
Anglo-Powhatan Wars (3 separate wars), Pequot War, Kieft's War, Peach Tree War, Esopus Wars, King Philip's War, Tuscarora War, Yamasee War, Dummer's War, Pontiac's War, Lord Dunmore's War, Cherokee-American Wars, Northwest Indian War, the Creek War, First and Second Seminole Wars, Texas-Indian Wars, Comanche-Mexico War, Cayuse War, Rogue River Wars, Yakima War, Puget Sound War, Spokane War, Snake War, Nez Perce War, Bannock War, Sheepeater Indian War, Navajo Wars, Yuma War, Mohave War, Apache Wars, Black Hawk War, Yavapai Wars, California Indian Wars, Walker War, Paiute War, Goshute War, White River War, Red Cloud's War, Colorado War, Great Sioux War, Dakota War....
And I'm sure I'm leaving a bunch out. The US is definitely built on the spoils of war.
Surely you didn't think north America was terra nullis or that the natives just willingly gave away all those natural resources to European colonists?
Anglo-Powhatan Wars (3 separate wars), Pequot War, Kieft's War, Peach Tree War, Esopus Wars, King Philip's War, Tuscarora War, Yamasee War, Dummer's War, Pontiac's War, Lord Dunmore's War, Cherokee-American Wars, Northwest Indian War, the Creek War, First and Second Seminole Wars, Texas-Indian Wars, Comanche-Mexico War, Cayuse War, Rogue River Wars, Yakima War, Puget Sound War, Spokane War, Snake War, Nez Perce War, Bannock War, Sheepeater Indian War, Navajo Wars, Yuma War, Mohave War, Apache Wars, Black Hawk War, Yavapai Wars, California Indian Wars, Walker War, Paiute War, Goshute War, White River War, Red Cloud's War, Colorado War, Great Sioux War, Dakota War....
And I'm sure I'm leaving a bunch out. The US is definitely built on the spoils of war.
> the natives just willingly gave away all those natural resources
The native Americans didn't even know about most of the natural resources, and what they did know about, they mostly didn't make any use of. That's a big part of why they ended up losing the wars against the European settlers: the latter actually turned those resources into wealth.
The native Americans didn't even know about most of the natural resources, and what they did know about, they mostly didn't make any use of. That's a big part of why they ended up losing the wars against the European settlers: the latter actually turned those resources into wealth.
That blanket statement holds no water. Apart from -great- cultural differences - e.g. respect for nature - indigenous Americans had -a lot- of knowledge about their world, and how to care for it.
May we have time to catch up with that knowledge.
May we have time to catch up with that knowledge.
Unfortunately this isn't the case.
The Pleistocene North American mass extinction, which wiped out the saber-toothed tiger and North American mastodon, was a result of hunting pressure about 10,000 years ago.
The positive stereotypes you are selling aren't real. They're largely the product of Hollywood (e.g. the "Crying Indian" ads), just like the negative stereotypes of the same peoples. Native Americans are people; given the opportunity they wreck nature, and once given guns and horses they stepped up their hunting of buffalo, for example, to levels that would have been unsustainable even if white people hadn't been killing the Buffalo off at far greater rates at the same time.
The Pleistocene North American mass extinction, which wiped out the saber-toothed tiger and North American mastodon, was a result of hunting pressure about 10,000 years ago.
The positive stereotypes you are selling aren't real. They're largely the product of Hollywood (e.g. the "Crying Indian" ads), just like the negative stereotypes of the same peoples. Native Americans are people; given the opportunity they wreck nature, and once given guns and horses they stepped up their hunting of buffalo, for example, to levels that would have been unsustainable even if white people hadn't been killing the Buffalo off at far greater rates at the same time.
> Apart from -great- cultural differences - e.g. respect for nature
You can respect nature and still make use of natural resources. Even if native Americans did the former (see below--some did but many did not), they fell far short on the latter. There were many natural resources in the US that native Americans never made any use of, and European settlers did.
This is an example of the more general fact that the native Americans did not build very much wealth, while European settlers built much, much more. The native American cultures would never have built the medium through which we are having this discussion, for example. Or modern medicine, or modern sanitation, or all of the other things that have led to a huge increase in both average length and average quality of life.
> indigenous Americans had -a lot- of knowledge about their world, and how to care for it.
Perhaps some did. Many did not. Travel around the US Southwest and see how many sites there are where native American tribes lived and either died out or had to move on because they had mismanaged the local resources to the point where those resources could no longer support the tribe.
You can respect nature and still make use of natural resources. Even if native Americans did the former (see below--some did but many did not), they fell far short on the latter. There were many natural resources in the US that native Americans never made any use of, and European settlers did.
This is an example of the more general fact that the native Americans did not build very much wealth, while European settlers built much, much more. The native American cultures would never have built the medium through which we are having this discussion, for example. Or modern medicine, or modern sanitation, or all of the other things that have led to a huge increase in both average length and average quality of life.
> indigenous Americans had -a lot- of knowledge about their world, and how to care for it.
Perhaps some did. Many did not. Travel around the US Southwest and see how many sites there are where native American tribes lived and either died out or had to move on because they had mismanaged the local resources to the point where those resources could no longer support the tribe.
"Spoils of war" implies some degree of active, ongoing conquest beyond the borders of a nation, but the United States has relied almost entirely on resources within its own borders to gain its power.
You could say that America was "expanding its empire" but there was not substantial growth after the Gadsden purchase and most of the growth of universities (and the bulk of American power) came much later.
Attributing research and production to the spoils of wars fought nearly a century ago is kind of a reach.
You could say that America was "expanding its empire" but there was not substantial growth after the Gadsden purchase and most of the growth of universities (and the bulk of American power) came much later.
Attributing research and production to the spoils of wars fought nearly a century ago is kind of a reach.
"Spoils of war" on Wikipedia redirects to "war looting" or:
"A prize of war is a piece of enemy property or land seized by a belligerent party during or after a war or battle, typically at sea."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prize_of_war
>but the United States has relied almost entirely on resources within its own borders to gain its power.
How did it attain control of those resources? You haven't addressed the parent's point.
>but the United States has relied almost entirely on resources within its own borders to gain its power.
How did it attain control of those resources? You haven't addressed the parent's point.
Amen that. Speaking of resource-extraction, I'll just add-in US history in South America for over a century. There the wars were, and still are, fought by the dictators against their own people. For example, Thatcher's 'friend' Pinochet.
Those natural resources were acquired by conquering and displacing the original inhabitants.
That's a statement that applies to nearly every society ever. What's the point of saying it? The post you're replying to is talking about a unique distinction in how 2 societies maintained power.
> That's a statement that applies to nearly every society ever. What's the point of saying it?
There's something to be said for relevance. It may be true for nearly every society, but the amount of relevance varies. The US conquered an astonishing amount of territory in recent history, which makes it relevant.
There's something to be said for relevance. It may be true for nearly every society, but the amount of relevance varies. The US conquered an astonishing amount of territory in recent history, which makes it relevant.
Much less than the Soviet Union.
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Oh oh oh I have one: a peculiar form of chattel slavery considered more brutal and unforgiving than that of Rome.
The American South was built on slavery, but slavery was a limiting factor in the economic development of the United States and particularly the South. It's why the industrial revolution happened in the North. And as the largest market for Southern cotton Europe was at least as much a benefactor of American Slavery.
Some people spin this narrative because they think it secures African-Americans' place as legitimate and essential builders of American wealth and power. And sometimes also to justify reparations. But that seems unnecessary and a reactionary narrative that is simply the flip side of the coin of American racist ideology. There's no need to justify, let alone rank, the contributions of any group in the U.S., especially when you do it by reviving horribly misguided economic theories.
Also, don't forget that slavery was endemic to European colonialism in the Americas. AFAIU, only a fraction (less than 10%?) of African slaves ended up in the United States. Brazil alone, for example, may have received upwards of 40%. If slavery were the secret sauce to economic development, the U.S. should be one of the poorest countries in the Americas.
Some people spin this narrative because they think it secures African-Americans' place as legitimate and essential builders of American wealth and power. And sometimes also to justify reparations. But that seems unnecessary and a reactionary narrative that is simply the flip side of the coin of American racist ideology. There's no need to justify, let alone rank, the contributions of any group in the U.S., especially when you do it by reviving horribly misguided economic theories.
Also, don't forget that slavery was endemic to European colonialism in the Americas. AFAIU, only a fraction (less than 10%?) of African slaves ended up in the United States. Brazil alone, for example, may have received upwards of 40%. If slavery were the secret sauce to economic development, the U.S. should be one of the poorest countries in the Americas.
> slavery was a limiting factor
I would love a source for this
>Also, don't forget that slavery was endemic to European colonialism in the Americas. AFAIU, only a fraction (less than 10%?) of African slaves ended up in the United States. Brazil alone, for example, may have received upwards of 40%. If slavery were the secret sauce to economic development, the U.S. should be one of the poorest countries in the Americas.
I don't follow this, why would they be the poorest? Is this based on your previous claim that slavery being a limiting factor?
I would love a source for this
>Also, don't forget that slavery was endemic to European colonialism in the Americas. AFAIU, only a fraction (less than 10%?) of African slaves ended up in the United States. Brazil alone, for example, may have received upwards of 40%. If slavery were the secret sauce to economic development, the U.S. should be one of the poorest countries in the Americas.
I don't follow this, why would they be the poorest? Is this based on your previous claim that slavery being a limiting factor?
> Recent research argues that among former New World colonies a nation’s past dependence on slave labor was important for its subsequent economic development (Engerman and Sokoloff, 1997, 2002). It is argued that specialization in plantation agriculture, with its use of slave labor, caused economic inequality, which concentrated power in the hands of a small elite, adversely affecting the development of domestic institutions needed for sustained economic growth. I test for these relationships looking across former New World economies and across states and counties within the U.S. The data shows that slave use is negatively correlated with subsequent economic development. However, there is no evidence that this relationship is driven by large scale plantation slavery, or that the relationship works through slavery’s effect on economic inequality.
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/nunn/files/domestic_slaver...
I haven't actually read much research in this area in particular. Frankly, it just seems intuitive to me based on all the literature I have read about American political, legal, and industrial development; the development of other countries, such as in SE Asia; and especially works related to the so-called "resource curse": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/nunn/files/domestic_slaver...
I haven't actually read much research in this area in particular. Frankly, it just seems intuitive to me based on all the literature I have read about American political, legal, and industrial development; the development of other countries, such as in SE Asia; and especially works related to the so-called "resource curse": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
> This is done by examining whether there is evidence that countries that relied most heavily on slave use in the late 18th and early 19th centuries are poorer today.
How would this ever apply to the country with the largest economy by the turn of the 20th century?
How would this ever apply to the country with the largest economy by the turn of the 20th century?
> I would love a source for this
For one thing, the Confederacy was crippled by its inability to supply its military. The Civil War was arguably the first industrial war, and the slave economy failed miserably at it.
For one thing, the Confederacy was crippled by its inability to supply its military. The Civil War was arguably the first industrial war, and the slave economy failed miserably at it.
The Soviet Union had much more natural resources available.
But not a temperate climate over its whole geography or stable government structures over the last 200 years.
The USSR was stable for 70 years. Long enough.
The problem was lack of free markets. Free markets are the common thread among successful economic powers. Not population, not resources, not rivers, etc.
The problem was lack of free markets. Free markets are the common thread among successful economic powers. Not population, not resources, not rivers, etc.
Agreed on the free markets point. Anything else is a nonstarter.
Huh? I don't think there was a single moment of stability anywhere in the whole Eastern bloc (was born there). Especially not political stability, and much less economical. People and businesses were continually deliberately destroyed on massive scale the entire time.
Though yeah, free markets are key.
Though yeah, free markets are key.
As well as colonialism and puppet governments in Latin America.
I often think this factor is vastly under estimated. The US geography is almost the perfect design for building a prosperous and stable society. A massive breadbasket of fertile interior flanked on each side by coastline with access to trade with all corners of the earth but still isolated and highly defensible. Every natural resource you could possibly need available in abundance without ever needing reliance on external countries. If you were sitting down to a game like SimCity and constructing a country you'd probably make something like that, but here it was "by accident" just ripe for the industrial revolution to take hold and transform it.
Japan has none of this, and yet is highly successful.
But it's not number one, perhaps party because of geography too (size of country, lack of natural resources, location).
Relative to their size, they have done extremely well. The lack of natural resources has not held them back, nor has the location, lack of rivers, etc.
The feature that matters is a free market.
The best thing a poor country can do for its citizens is move towards a free market economy.
The feature that matters is a free market.
The best thing a poor country can do for its citizens is move towards a free market economy.
At a different scale and time Japan was indeed blessed with natural resources.
In the revised edition of Guns, Germs and Steel Jared Diamond tells us that the "agriculture package" sent from the Fertile Crescent 5kya arrived here late: 2.3kya - perhaps 1,000 years later than expected.
The purported reason: Jomon was perhaps the most sophisticated hunter-gatherer society ever. For instance, pottery was created by Jomon hunter-gatherers earlier than anywhere else.
In part, because of the sheer abundance of natural resources in Japan, the Jomon peoples had developed a rich society that agriculturism for a long time simply couldn't compete with.
In the revised edition of Guns, Germs and Steel Jared Diamond tells us that the "agriculture package" sent from the Fertile Crescent 5kya arrived here late: 2.3kya - perhaps 1,000 years later than expected.
The purported reason: Jomon was perhaps the most sophisticated hunter-gatherer society ever. For instance, pottery was created by Jomon hunter-gatherers earlier than anywhere else.
In part, because of the sheer abundance of natural resources in Japan, the Jomon peoples had developed a rich society that agriculturism for a long time simply couldn't compete with.
birdyrooster(1)
The free market in the US explains it a lot better.
(The USSR also captured a lot of German scientists, the results of which were the Soviet successes with rockets and jet aircraft, for example.)
(The USSR also captured a lot of German scientists, the results of which were the Soviet successes with rockets and jet aircraft, for example.)
West europe didn't have good options to go to USSR. Politically it was a no-no, going there meant you would be tainted as a spy even if you went back after a while.
So, sure the USSR might not have been stellar, but in the cold war the camps were already cut either way and you didn't choose the US or USSR.
You only chose to stay were you are or go for top entity of your block.
So, sure the USSR might not have been stellar, but in the cold war the camps were already cut either way and you didn't choose the US or USSR.
You only chose to stay were you are or go for top entity of your block.
I would add to that control over top scientific journals. Before the war people used to publish scientific work in other languages, and in local journals. After the war the US took more control over published research. But it's also because of the money, and a good strategy ofc
Plus, the US is literally printing its own money with abandon.
Also Nazi Germany. German universities just tanked while many American universities became the home of Jews fleeing Nazism.
Research focus in US and EU seems a bit different.
Europe produces a lot of high quality science. Research in US is on the other hand increasingly application-focused (something that EU is not very good at).
This is my observation as a former researcher who has experience in both regions; I don’t have references. It’s partly driven by culture, and economic system. The strong public system in Europe supports longer term research, whereas the strong private sector in US focuses on applications and commercialization. It wasn’t not like that in US few decades ago.
Europe produces a lot of high quality science. Research in US is on the other hand increasingly application-focused (something that EU is not very good at).
This is my observation as a former researcher who has experience in both regions; I don’t have references. It’s partly driven by culture, and economic system. The strong public system in Europe supports longer term research, whereas the strong private sector in US focuses on applications and commercialization. It wasn’t not like that in US few decades ago.
Citation needed? Never heard or noticed any bias like this before.
Look at university research labs, and see where they get their funding from.
Companies tend to fund applied research.
Funding in Europe, whether academic or industry motivated, is simply lacking across all scientific, engineering, and social science disciplines.
Companies tend to fund applied research.
Funding in Europe, whether academic or industry motivated, is simply lacking across all scientific, engineering, and social science disciplines.
You seriously think that university research in the US is largely funded or driven by companies? This is utterly wrong.
*Edit*. The question is why the united states has the "best research universities". That is a very general-level question and the Parent made a very general, and very wrong, claim in response. Regardless of whether some specific fields might have more industrial funding than others, it's easy to google the overall portion: and industry funding is quite minor.
https://www.aaas.org/sites/default/files/2018-11/UniSource1....
*Edit*. The question is why the united states has the "best research universities". That is a very general-level question and the Parent made a very general, and very wrong, claim in response. Regardless of whether some specific fields might have more industrial funding than others, it's easy to google the overall portion: and industry funding is quite minor.
https://www.aaas.org/sites/default/files/2018-11/UniSource1....
Depending on the field, it can be. Lots of University-affiliated labs in the medical field get significant industry funding.
This seems on topic:
https://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/newsroom/newsn/10721/the-color...
> is largely funded or driven by companies
GP never implied it was the largest contributor, and yes, depending on your field a significant amount of funding does come from the private sector.
GP never implied it was the largest contributor, and yes, depending on your field a significant amount of funding does come from the private sector.
> You seriously think that university research in the US is largely funded or driven by companies? This is utterly wrong.
Slow down there bud. Where did I say that?
Unless you’re talking about AI/ML, then yes, university labs receive more from companies, than government funding agencies.
Slow down there bud. Where did I say that?
Unless you’re talking about AI/ML, then yes, university labs receive more from companies, than government funding agencies.
> Slow down there bud. Where did I say that?
If I miserepresented you, then I am sorry.
> Unless you’re talking about AI/ML, then yes, university labs receive more from companies, than government funding agencies.
This is simply untrue. Companies comprise less than 10% of overall university research funding, and AI/ML is far from dominant. It's easy to verify this.
If I miserepresented you, then I am sorry.
> Unless you’re talking about AI/ML, then yes, university labs receive more from companies, than government funding agencies.
This is simply untrue. Companies comprise less than 10% of overall university research funding, and AI/ML is far from dominant. It's easy to verify this.
Have you heard of Bell Labs?
> Have you heard of Bell Labs?
While I would tend to agree that private funding for research is way better in the US, Bell Labs is not necessarily a good example.
True, the tech. output of the outfit was amazing, but they had massive govt support (among other things, they were given an official monopoly by the USG).
While I would tend to agree that private funding for research is way better in the US, Bell Labs is not necessarily a good example.
True, the tech. output of the outfit was amazing, but they had massive govt support (among other things, they were given an official monopoly by the USG).
It wasn't just the monopoly itself but their revenue and profit structure was driven by the research (cap ex and op ex were treated differently by the consent decree, and they had performance metrics to meet as demand grew). Research also had valuable P.R. value.
At least in Germany a lot of research isn't being done at universities but at dedicated research institutes. Quite a few PhD students are working part time at uni and part time at one of the Fraunhofer Institutes or at Forschungszentrum Jülich. Another European example is CERN in Switzerland.
This model just doesn't conform with all those research university rankings.
This model just doesn't conform with all those research university rankings.
I wonder how much it contributes.
American Visiting Researchers at CERN, since they remain attached to their Universities, probably count toward their institution's ranking. But a full time researcher at CERN doesn't.
The JPL at Caltech and the Lincoln Laboratory at MIT are the opposite of that. They do, what could be considered mostly government research but I'm sure 100% of their citation count goes toward their respective institutions.
American Visiting Researchers at CERN, since they remain attached to their Universities, probably count toward their institution's ranking. But a full time researcher at CERN doesn't.
The JPL at Caltech and the Lincoln Laboratory at MIT are the opposite of that. They do, what could be considered mostly government research but I'm sure 100% of their citation count goes toward their respective institutions.
Or even more importantly the Max Planck Institutes and Helmholz.
Max Planck society is a heavy weight for sure and the co-operation with universities pretty unique as they need each other and are fully public (other than e.g. American private entities like JPL).
I don’t know why anyone should believe you. Can you source some concrete facts if any?
This is a provocative comment ready to start flame wars.
Please tell specifics and not paint broad brushstrokes to flame the fires. I’m sorry to flag your comment.
Edit: One source we can look at the awards given to fundamental research. They’re overwhelmingly US-based. Fields, Nobel, Turing, etc. This contradicts the popular generalization.
This is a provocative comment ready to start flame wars.
Please tell specifics and not paint broad brushstrokes to flame the fires. I’m sorry to flag your comment.
Edit: One source we can look at the awards given to fundamental research. They’re overwhelmingly US-based. Fields, Nobel, Turing, etc. This contradicts the popular generalization.
A bit of an overreaction here? I’m pretty sure it’s ok for people to share their personal observations.
I don’t think so. I’ve seen time and again that it leads to completely unpleasant nationalism flame war.
Did anyone read the article at all?
Did anyone read the article at all?
I'm surprised the trajectory of the forum would make you think that way. Also meta-conversation is very dangerous to focus.
Meta-meta-conversation is always fine though.
> They’re overwhelmingly US-based. Fields, Nobel, Turing, etc
This isn't really clear. For example, EU has generated about twice the fields medal recipients as the US. That's reasonable in terms of roughly equivalent populations, but does beg the question that if someone grows up in Europe, trains and spends early career in Europe, but ends up a professor in USA before being given a Nobel prize, where do you count the result?
This isn't really clear. For example, EU has generated about twice the fields medal recipients as the US. That's reasonable in terms of roughly equivalent populations, but does beg the question that if someone grows up in Europe, trains and spends early career in Europe, but ends up a professor in USA before being given a Nobel prize, where do you count the result?
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Someone having positive opinion of non American is not starting flamewar. Overreaction to it is. Threatening to flag it just because you disagree, or because someone having positive opinion of something in eu hurts you feeling is absurd.
So far, this thread has been the most uninteresting. These types of opinions lead to completely unsubstantiated back and forth. It’s not even remotely close to truth unless we have some facts to disclose. Threatening to flag!? I apologized to flag and provided reasons for it. Far cry from a threat. Obviously, you’ve all agreed that it was an overreaction.
I’d say, the entire article is flamewar prone. How can you say something is best?
I’d say, the entire article is flamewar prone. How can you say something is best?
Why is this provocative? It was certainly not meant as a black and white contrasty "it is always true"-law of nature, bit rather someone describing vague undercurrents based onpersonal experience?
Weird overreaction on your side tho.
Weird overreaction on your side tho.
The commenter said no references, it seemed like an expression of broad opinion/experience, not like a strong declaration of truth.
"European and American universities both have strengths and weaknesses" is not that provocative.
> US-based. Fields, Nobel, Turing,
How many of these were actually educated in the US, as in from primary school, and how many came to the US to complete a PhD after having received an education outside of the US?
How many of these were actually educated in the US, as in from primary school, and how many came to the US to complete a PhD after having received an education outside of the US?
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I've noticed EU CS grads are on average much stronger scientifically than US ones. With notable exceptions, the typical US undergraduate curriculum is more of a trade school. That’s fine of course, but definitely not the skillset needed for novel research or even properly applying recent research.
Edit: Apparently I’ve struck a nerve. But this has been my experience working and hiring at two of the FAANGs. The teams doing the most scientifically challenging work are predominantly European educated and the team members that aren’t are from the most elite US institutions.
Edit: Apparently I’ve struck a nerve. But this has been my experience working and hiring at two of the FAANGs. The teams doing the most scientifically challenging work are predominantly European educated and the team members that aren’t are from the most elite US institutions.
I would not say that EU grads are better than American grads or the opposite. They both have different set of skills and strengths.
My experience is the following: I’m an European grad but did my PhD in the USA . In Europe tests were brutal and you had no help whatsoever from the professors. Your grade in a course was 80%-100% a single final test and lots of people would fail. Also, professors would not restraint criticism toward students.
In USA students seldom fail, grades are inflated in most universities and they not only depend on tests but also on homework and a variety of activities. They also spend lots of time doing extra activities and “leadership” stuff and learning how to self promote.
That being said, I feel that American students end up being much more driven and optimistic and many of them end up trying and succeeding at doing new things.
My experience is the following: I’m an European grad but did my PhD in the USA . In Europe tests were brutal and you had no help whatsoever from the professors. Your grade in a course was 80%-100% a single final test and lots of people would fail. Also, professors would not restraint criticism toward students.
In USA students seldom fail, grades are inflated in most universities and they not only depend on tests but also on homework and a variety of activities. They also spend lots of time doing extra activities and “leadership” stuff and learning how to self promote.
That being said, I feel that American students end up being much more driven and optimistic and many of them end up trying and succeeding at doing new things.
I am a grad student in a top european university in CS, and tough love has been my experience as well. We have access to the grade distributions and they are steep but not multimodal, with many students failing the first mandatory and notorious courses.
The usually grade depends on a single test, often oral which puts additional burden, plus, to even qualify for the test, students need to achieve well above 50% average on homework assignments.
The usually grade depends on a single test, often oral which puts additional burden, plus, to even qualify for the test, students need to achieve well above 50% average on homework assignments.
I agree a lot with this, the European educational system is too much "learn by tough love" sometimes.
I think a less pot-stirring way of saying this is to just point out that most US colleges/universities are closer to Fachhochschulen than Universitäten.
The difference between the two regions is IMO mostly overstated. Especially in CS. Both the US and EU have institutions with trade school-style CS bachelors/masters as well as truly top research institutions with real Computer Science bachelors/masters degrees. Saying much more than that isn't particularly helpful.
NB: I'm willing to bet that most of the "hard core science" teams in Europe have Americans over-represented relative to other teams in the company. This says more about how immigration systems work than anything else.
Also NB: being on "hard core science" teams isn't the best way to maximize income/career trajectory at FAANGs, and isn't even the most secure... remember a buncha years back when Microsoft killed off its bay area research lab?
The difference between the two regions is IMO mostly overstated. Especially in CS. Both the US and EU have institutions with trade school-style CS bachelors/masters as well as truly top research institutions with real Computer Science bachelors/masters degrees. Saying much more than that isn't particularly helpful.
NB: I'm willing to bet that most of the "hard core science" teams in Europe have Americans over-represented relative to other teams in the company. This says more about how immigration systems work than anything else.
Also NB: being on "hard core science" teams isn't the best way to maximize income/career trajectory at FAANGs, and isn't even the most secure... remember a buncha years back when Microsoft killed off its bay area research lab?
How do we always go from university rankings based on research results straight to comparing what in the US are predominantly Bachelor graduates?
I think it is abundantly clear that research prowess really has very little bearing on how competent you are in teaching say Linear Algebra. Which is how we got the whole MOOC thing in the first place, there is no magic Harvard Linear Algebra but there sure are tons of social mobility barriers and they don't really care for the curriculum one bit as much as having that upper strata origin Ivory league stamp of approval.
I think it is abundantly clear that research prowess really has very little bearing on how competent you are in teaching say Linear Algebra. Which is how we got the whole MOOC thing in the first place, there is no magic Harvard Linear Algebra but there sure are tons of social mobility barriers and they don't really care for the curriculum one bit as much as having that upper strata origin Ivory league stamp of approval.
> The United States trains the best computer graduates ― by far: We find that CS seniors in the United States substantially outperform seniors in China, India, and Russia. The average computer science student in the United States ranks higher than about 80 percent of students tested in China, India, and Russia. Seniors in elite institutions in the United States similarly outperform seniors in elite institutions in China, India, and Russia by approximately 0.85 Standard Deviations (SDs). Importantly, the skills advantage of the United States is not because it has a large proportion of high-scoring international students.
https://blogs.worldbank.org/education/who-trains-best-comput...
Original paper
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/03/12/1814646116
https://blogs.worldbank.org/education/who-trains-best-comput...
Original paper
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/03/12/1814646116
This is comparison between US and (China, India, and Russia). The original poster was comparing between US and Europe, which this paper does not cover at all.
For reference, the title of the paper is "Computer science skills across China, India, Russia, and the United States"
For reference, the title of the paper is "Computer science skills across China, India, Russia, and the United States"
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The EU CS grads that make it to the US are stronger than the average US ones. They are also stronger than the average EU ones.
I think that some elite US institutions provide solid CS foundations but the classes that supply this don’t also supply good scientific thinking. I think that the institutions thought that science and engineering requirements would have supplied this. However, that is very hit and miss based on the quality of the professors you happened to take for introductory science courses.
The second tier US schools are definitely trade schools. The professors do at best second tier research. The average student is weaker. Canada appears even more explicitly trade school like than the US with significant portions of schooling devoted to getting industry experience.
Also, the recent rise in compensation has relatively recently tilted even the elite institutions towards being trade schools. A greater and greater percentage of undergraduates at these elite institutions are majoring in CS.
I think that some elite US institutions provide solid CS foundations but the classes that supply this don’t also supply good scientific thinking. I think that the institutions thought that science and engineering requirements would have supplied this. However, that is very hit and miss based on the quality of the professors you happened to take for introductory science courses.
The second tier US schools are definitely trade schools. The professors do at best second tier research. The average student is weaker. Canada appears even more explicitly trade school like than the US with significant portions of schooling devoted to getting industry experience.
Also, the recent rise in compensation has relatively recently tilted even the elite institutions towards being trade schools. A greater and greater percentage of undergraduates at these elite institutions are majoring in CS.
Maybe survivor's bias? I assume you live in the USA. The europeans that FANG bothers to move across the pond might be only the really good ones attracted by the top payment. The mediocre europeans don't make it and thus remain in europe, outside of your view. Different culture, different success measures, red tape around visas, etc. all put larger cost onto international hires vs just hiring domestically.
Exactly.
I can think of a few reasons:
In many European countries, the five-year master's is still seen as the primary undergraduate degree, at least in universities. (There may be other more applied institutes with shorter degrees.) When most students are expected to graduate with a master's instead of bachelor's, the program is likely to be more theoretical.
Elite schools are a foreign concept in many European countries. In such countries, ambitious students motivated by status and success are more likely to pursue a professional degree such as law, medicine, or business. The ones that choose an academic program such as CS are more likely to be motivated by the subject matter itself.
You don't see a representative sample of European graduates. Moving to another country requires huge sacrifices. Most people from wealthy countries are unwilling to make those sacrifices simply to get a better job. Those that do emigrate for work tend to be more career-oriented than the average.
In many European countries, the five-year master's is still seen as the primary undergraduate degree, at least in universities. (There may be other more applied institutes with shorter degrees.) When most students are expected to graduate with a master's instead of bachelor's, the program is likely to be more theoretical.
Elite schools are a foreign concept in many European countries. In such countries, ambitious students motivated by status and success are more likely to pursue a professional degree such as law, medicine, or business. The ones that choose an academic program such as CS are more likely to be motivated by the subject matter itself.
You don't see a representative sample of European graduates. Moving to another country requires huge sacrifices. Most people from wealthy countries are unwilling to make those sacrifices simply to get a better job. Those that do emigrate for work tend to be more career-oriented than the average.
I am not impressed with european masters alumni and I have worked in europe and the usa, it definitely seemed like it was the bachelors of europe, everyone had it.. I believe it is more difficult to get into a masters program in the usa.
> Elite schools are a foreign concept in many European countries
The most well known universities in England, France, Germany, Switzerland are what you can call Elite Schools. Yes, even in technical fields like ETH, École Polytechnique in Paris, etc
The most well known universities in England, France, Germany, Switzerland are what you can call Elite Schools. Yes, even in technical fields like ETH, École Polytechnique in Paris, etc
By elite schools, I mean universities where a substantial part of the value to the students is the brand value and networking with people who can be expected to be particularly successful in the future. The UK has that at Oxbridge and to a lesser degree at other top universities. In France that means some grandes écoles. Germany traditionally didn't have elite schools, with the assumption that all universities are equivalent, but things may be changing. I'm not familiar enough with the Swiss system.
> But this has been my experience
Not sure why you're being downvoted, that has been my experience as well.
Not sure why you're being downvoted, that has been my experience as well.
I had the complete opposite impression with compspci grads I met in Germany. For undergrad they had a lot of diverse job skills, opposite for US
Could this be due to EU universities studying specifically one subject while US universities require credits in other topics like Languages?
I think that is mostly compensated by bachelors taking an additional year.
I don't know if what parent comment says is true at all, but if it is I think it's because historically universities didn't have a Bachelor's/Masters system in Europe. At least in Germany and the Netherlands you would study for 5 years and that is still the expectation. For less academically inclined students there are other options such as trade schools.
I don't know if what parent comment says is true at all, but if it is I think it's because historically universities didn't have a Bachelor's/Masters system in Europe. At least in Germany and the Netherlands you would study for 5 years and that is still the expectation. For less academically inclined students there are other options such as trade schools.
I don't think so, or at least it's not necessary. A lot of my CS classes (US state university) were just kind of watered down so weaker students could pass. In short, grade inflation.
Do US engineering programs actually require foreign languages and other liberal arts coursework? That wasn't the case at UVA or VT in the 90s.
Yes, most U.S. universities require a broad range of subjects outside of one's chosen major. This is a good thing in my book. You have your whole life to develop an ever-narrowing level of specialization.
No disagreement here. But then my degree is in economics, not engineering.
IIRC, UVA's engineering curriculum didn't require foreign language, had it's own writing course, most of the remaining cross-over outside engineering was hard science, with a small number of gen-ed electives (maybe 1/year or 1/semester?).
Compared to my Econ degree, which required 2 years of language, 2 semesters of writing, a mix of hard science and math, and somewhere around 4 gen-ed courses per year.
IIRC, UVA's engineering curriculum didn't require foreign language, had it's own writing course, most of the remaining cross-over outside engineering was hard science, with a small number of gen-ed electives (maybe 1/year or 1/semester?).
Compared to my Econ degree, which required 2 years of language, 2 semesters of writing, a mix of hard science and math, and somewhere around 4 gen-ed courses per year.
I wasn't required to take foreign language classes but my engineering degree did have a significant liberal arts core. This is pretty standard in the US from what I've seen.
Lol at my state school a cs course counted towards the foreign language credit for engineering majors... that said i did feel there was enough liberal arts requirements overall.
Yeah, many of them do.
In my medphys program we had a unit on how to get research funding after grad school. The instructor explained that the most likely source by far is industry, followed by government, and last academia/other. It's been this way for a while as I understand it.
I agree. Also, some universities in Europe, like ENS in Paris, produced more field medal recipients than all top US universities combined. But way more people heard about Harvard than ENS. English helps too.
Citation needed—I see Harvard and Princeton as having 7 alumni each, which combined is more than ENS' 12.
From the list in Wikipedia it seems a lot of researchers move institutions after they were awarded, so maybe that is it. But yes, the score might change with time.
Not only English, but also the marketing through Hollywood.
mathematics have historically been a focus of scientific training in France for a very long time. I don't think it is representative of a more general trend TBH.
> application-focused (something that EU is not very good at)
Probably because of the investor climate, and applied research is a good fit for companies.
Probably because of the investor climate, and applied research is a good fit for companies.
Research in the U.S. has tended towards applications due to promotion of agricultural productivity research and agricultural extension services by various U.S. founders in the 1700s and due to the land-grant university system established in the 1800s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land-grant_university
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land-grant_university
Most government agencies like NIH and NSF are funding mostly basic research, because as you note private companies do not invest in this.
I believe this is almost 100% wrong - reversed, until fairly recently. European basic research was in the toilet for decades; they often did the second experiment in everything.
The US has the best research universities in part because it's socially accepted, even expected, to call anything remotely good "the best" over here. People are a bit more restrained elsewhere.
For universities, they're admittedly the best by several objective measures too, but the willingness for self-promotion helps :)
For universities, they're admittedly the best by several objective measures too, but the willingness for self-promotion helps :)
This.
I hope I won't offend anyone here but there's a story that seems quite appropriate:
When I was still living in the US, an acquaintance of mine once asked me, "So don't you think the United States are the best country in the world?" I was absolutely baffled. Putting aside for a moment that the US clearly did not rank "best" on so many scales, the question (to me, as a European) didn't even make much sense in the first place: What metric are we talking about? And what's the point of comparing countries on an absolute scale in the first place? No matter what metric we choose, it will never convey the full picture.
Sure, I enjoyed living in the US. But I've also come to enjoy living in other countries over the years and I know there are many more that I would absolutely love to live in. In any case, I don't think it would even occur to a European to call their country "the best". Our continent's history is so complicated and riddled with grave mistakes, wars and crimes, that a claim that one country were "better" than the other would just seem… strange. Everyone here knows that their neighboring countries are at least as beautiful as their own and every place and every mentality has its pros and cons.
Anyway, I ended up explaining my POV to said acquantaince and also said that, if he so insists on ranking countries in a such an absolute manner, then we would also have to talk about all those things in the US where there's still… room for improvement. We ended up having a long and fruitful discussion and he started agreeing with me (or so I thought) that the question might not make that much sense after all. Still, after an hour of discussing all this, he goes, in a very matter-of-fact way: "Everything you said is certainly correct. But I still think the US are the best country in the world."
At this point the only explanation I had left was that he must have been brainwashed properly in school, pledging allegiance to the flag and so on.
To the Americans reading this: Where do you think does this sense of "living in the best country in the world" come from? Where did you "learn" it? I'd really be interested in understanding this phenomenon better.
I hope I won't offend anyone here but there's a story that seems quite appropriate:
When I was still living in the US, an acquaintance of mine once asked me, "So don't you think the United States are the best country in the world?" I was absolutely baffled. Putting aside for a moment that the US clearly did not rank "best" on so many scales, the question (to me, as a European) didn't even make much sense in the first place: What metric are we talking about? And what's the point of comparing countries on an absolute scale in the first place? No matter what metric we choose, it will never convey the full picture.
Sure, I enjoyed living in the US. But I've also come to enjoy living in other countries over the years and I know there are many more that I would absolutely love to live in. In any case, I don't think it would even occur to a European to call their country "the best". Our continent's history is so complicated and riddled with grave mistakes, wars and crimes, that a claim that one country were "better" than the other would just seem… strange. Everyone here knows that their neighboring countries are at least as beautiful as their own and every place and every mentality has its pros and cons.
Anyway, I ended up explaining my POV to said acquantaince and also said that, if he so insists on ranking countries in a such an absolute manner, then we would also have to talk about all those things in the US where there's still… room for improvement. We ended up having a long and fruitful discussion and he started agreeing with me (or so I thought) that the question might not make that much sense after all. Still, after an hour of discussing all this, he goes, in a very matter-of-fact way: "Everything you said is certainly correct. But I still think the US are the best country in the world."
At this point the only explanation I had left was that he must have been brainwashed properly in school, pledging allegiance to the flag and so on.
To the Americans reading this: Where do you think does this sense of "living in the best country in the world" come from? Where did you "learn" it? I'd really be interested in understanding this phenomenon better.
I'm an American who has lived overseas and I think I have a little more nuance than this, but overall I have the mindset you describe. I think it's kind of like the factoid that ~70-80% of people say they are better than average at driving. In particular, a healthy level of self esteem helps individuals to perform better because they are more confident and take advantage of more opportunities. And I think "USA is the best country" is a myth that creates the self-assuredness that makes Americans come off as "pushy" to everyone else. In many (but not all) businesses, a "pushy" strategy works well financially. So even though it seems illogical, it's not that attributes of America cause it to be "best", but that America thinking of itself as "best" causes it to have certain strategic attributes.
Now, that said, many Americans have a totally unhealthy level of self-esteem that turns into nationalism, white supremacy or near-fascism. TBH I don't know how to deal with those people, but by my logic above it might be more successful to help them consider the impact of their beliefs rather than why their beliefs are wrong.
Now, that said, many Americans have a totally unhealthy level of self-esteem that turns into nationalism, white supremacy or near-fascism. TBH I don't know how to deal with those people, but by my logic above it might be more successful to help them consider the impact of their beliefs rather than why their beliefs are wrong.
America invented many things, but we did not invent nationalism. It is natural to feel good things about a place where all your loved ones live and has a language and culture that is familiar to you. You really think it makes no sense to Europeans to think of their country as "the best"? It seems to some degree to be the character of most right wing parties I'm aware of that this is a part of their stance.
But also, America is the best:
1. American Breakfast
2. American Coffee
3. McDonald's
4. Best Movies
5. Most Jacked
I could go on and on.
But also, America is the best:
1. American Breakfast
2. American Coffee
3. McDonald's
4. Best Movies
5. Most Jacked
I could go on and on.
Definitely the best in their category. No one makes better American Coffee than Americans.
What I find interesting is that Americans are most proud of their culture at home, and when overseas that tends to be moderated. Whereas some immigrants always say their native country has 'the best X'. I'm thinking in particular about some Greek immigrants I've known, but then in the next breath they'll tell you about corruption back home.
What I find interesting is that Americans are most proud of their culture at home, and when overseas that tends to be moderated. Whereas some immigrants always say their native country has 'the best X'. I'm thinking in particular about some Greek immigrants I've known, but then in the next breath they'll tell you about corruption back home.
This list made me laugh and made me worried I missed a sarcasm somewhere. I’ll give you best movies because of Hollywood, but everything else, really?
Have you travelled much outside the US? It’s seems so weird to hear “USA the best because breakfast, coffee, and McDonald’s”, it sounds like a cliche.
What do you mean by jacked?
Have you travelled much outside the US? It’s seems so weird to hear “USA the best because breakfast, coffee, and McDonald’s”, it sounds like a cliche.
What do you mean by jacked?
They're talking about an absolute/total sense instead of relative to per-capita situation.
If we forget that the US has more people, they are the best at many things. Science, GDP, sports, and so on. That's probably what he means when he says "best".
It'd be like calling Google or Apple the "best" tech companies even though you can make more money at some small startups. It's true in some sense (they're the biggest, dominant, etc), not necessarily true in the per-capita sense (I might have a better time somewhere else).
If we forget that the US has more people, they are the best at many things. Science, GDP, sports, and so on. That's probably what he means when he says "best".
It'd be like calling Google or Apple the "best" tech companies even though you can make more money at some small startups. It's true in some sense (they're the biggest, dominant, etc), not necessarily true in the per-capita sense (I might have a better time somewhere else).
Reminded me of this https://youtu.be/4fTkA3dvpPM
Again...personal experience but I can speak to this a bit.
I went to an undergraduate university that would be wouldn't be considered highly ranked, but was nationally known in one subfield. I remember being surprised at one point to see a number of articles in major science media sources from MIT about a 'breakthrough'. I read the articles and they were 100% describing something that we did on a regular basis in undergraduate labs. I read the underlying press release and the underlying paper and was decidedly meh but man did it catch a news wave. I've always attributed it to being from MIT more so than truly novel. Not a shot against them...just an observation of the power of self-perpetuating narratives.
I now work at a different internationally ranked 'best researchy type' university. The research is better for a lot of reasons. The ability to attract the best people helps, but that comes from the reputation of having the best people and the resources to attract the best people. That is intermingled with the resources to have support, PR, media relations, and the brand name attraction for grad students.
We have pretty much the same distribution of undergrad intellect as other engineering schools I have worked with. It skew more academic and less practical...I'll be honest if I was a VC I would look at other universities for the next founder types. But the resources and money available for students to pursue entrepreneurship are outsized compared to the talent.
But the myths about our excellence are pervasive - and drive behaviors from people who have no basis for actual evidence. It means we get students brand shopping and not wanting to do the work (we literally had a case of an international student being expelled for the person in classes not actually being the enrolled student).
I don't think this article is wrong per se but the virtuous circle argument is inseparable from the self-perpetuating circle one. And I am unsurprised that the American Economic Association isn't talking about that piece. Objective functions are great, feedback loops are also an element of a control system.
I went to an undergraduate university that would be wouldn't be considered highly ranked, but was nationally known in one subfield. I remember being surprised at one point to see a number of articles in major science media sources from MIT about a 'breakthrough'. I read the articles and they were 100% describing something that we did on a regular basis in undergraduate labs. I read the underlying press release and the underlying paper and was decidedly meh but man did it catch a news wave. I've always attributed it to being from MIT more so than truly novel. Not a shot against them...just an observation of the power of self-perpetuating narratives.
I now work at a different internationally ranked 'best researchy type' university. The research is better for a lot of reasons. The ability to attract the best people helps, but that comes from the reputation of having the best people and the resources to attract the best people. That is intermingled with the resources to have support, PR, media relations, and the brand name attraction for grad students.
We have pretty much the same distribution of undergrad intellect as other engineering schools I have worked with. It skew more academic and less practical...I'll be honest if I was a VC I would look at other universities for the next founder types. But the resources and money available for students to pursue entrepreneurship are outsized compared to the talent.
But the myths about our excellence are pervasive - and drive behaviors from people who have no basis for actual evidence. It means we get students brand shopping and not wanting to do the work (we literally had a case of an international student being expelled for the person in classes not actually being the enrolled student).
I don't think this article is wrong per se but the virtuous circle argument is inseparable from the self-perpetuating circle one. And I am unsurprised that the American Economic Association isn't talking about that piece. Objective functions are great, feedback loops are also an element of a control system.
Speaking as someone involved in the US research university system, there's something deeply concerning about this piece.
It's a bit like an article circa 2006 about the awesome strength of the US stock market.
It's a bit like an article circa 2006 about the awesome strength of the US stock market.
This rings true... there’s a tendency to exaggerate or maximalize in the US, certainly at least in the commercial realm.
In this vein [but slightly off topic], can anyone point me to high profile megacap EU startups? The only one that comes to mind is Spotify. I was speaking with some people the other day and probably due to a NA centric focus we were at a lack of well branded EU starts up that had made it similar to US ones.
> can anyone point me to high profile megacap EU startups
Don't waste your time looking, there are none or almost none.
EU is simply not geared (anymore) for this type of endeavor to succeed:
Don't waste your time looking, there are none or almost none.
EU is simply not geared (anymore) for this type of endeavor to succeed:
- finance infrastructure for this is non-existent (VCs are a joke in Europe, both in terms of size and in terms of the type of stuff they invest in)
- risk-taking is simply not a cultural value anymore
- administrative burdens (taxes, labor laws, cost of labor, hyper-restrictive regulations, etc ...) are such a gigantic drag that most people potentially potentially capable of starting such things either walk away, or move to a place where they can actually conduct business (historically, the US, although it's not as good as it was).
- at least in Western Europe, (Germany, France), people are so very comfy in their social cocoon (social security, retirement, social programs), the whole notion of "making it" (e.g becoming truly financially independent) is *very* hard for them to even understand. Net effect: no motivation, no GOOG/FB/AMZN/TESLA/SpaceX
- the US has a "let the tree grow first, we'll regulate once it bears fruits" attitude towards emerging and potentially disruptive tech. The EU on the other hand has a "oh, my god, this is potentially very disruptive, someone ought to legislate, and quick".
As someone from the EU, some of your points seem very true, but it's also simply a matter of many people not really having the same goals and requirements.
There is no true independence in any society, apart from autocracy, and externalities always exist.
There doesn't seem to be much value attributed to 'having a lot of money' etc, for a lot of people, having a fulfilling job, family and life is enough, and having the security of knowing that you can get sick and go to the hospital without being bankrupted, or knowing that you will be able to provide for your family directly or indirectly in almost all scenarios makes this whole "I need to be a billionaire to live" notion very non-existent here.
You don't need a VC to be happy, you don't need to create a startup and you don't need to take a lot of risk to create value. This is of course directly related to the social cocoon; and knowing the value of that makes for very little need to take big risks for a chance of making things 'better' (whatever 'better' might be...).
That said, there are a lot of self-bootstrapping businesses that function just fine. They don't go public and mostly don't make more than a couple of millions each year, but it is enough, or better: it is plenty. There is no rat race, you have plenty of vacation, you can travel the world, and if something goes wrong there are buffers to catch you. (but those aren't comfortable enough to just slack off in to and 'do nothing', but that'd be unfulfilling for most people anyawy).
There is no true independence in any society, apart from autocracy, and externalities always exist.
There doesn't seem to be much value attributed to 'having a lot of money' etc, for a lot of people, having a fulfilling job, family and life is enough, and having the security of knowing that you can get sick and go to the hospital without being bankrupted, or knowing that you will be able to provide for your family directly or indirectly in almost all scenarios makes this whole "I need to be a billionaire to live" notion very non-existent here.
You don't need a VC to be happy, you don't need to create a startup and you don't need to take a lot of risk to create value. This is of course directly related to the social cocoon; and knowing the value of that makes for very little need to take big risks for a chance of making things 'better' (whatever 'better' might be...).
That said, there are a lot of self-bootstrapping businesses that function just fine. They don't go public and mostly don't make more than a couple of millions each year, but it is enough, or better: it is plenty. There is no rat race, you have plenty of vacation, you can travel the world, and if something goes wrong there are buffers to catch you. (but those aren't comfortable enough to just slack off in to and 'do nothing', but that'd be unfulfilling for most people anyawy).
chasing TC was never the goal, prometheus > zeus
Your explanation fits into what he described, point 3 & 4. You're trying to justify why taking risks isn't required.
It doesn't need justification, but for outsiders it might need explanations.
There is no value in risk in itself.
There is no value in risk in itself.
True, but you seem biased against any risk at all, which if endemic explains part of the disparity.
More like biased against high risk, low reward constructions. What is considered a low risk with a potential high reward in some places has the inverse in other places.
For example, taking a high risk of attempting to create a unicorn startup for the low reward of having more money isn't really worth it here. That's because the barrier at which point 'more money' makes your life 'better' is much lower. Same goes for prestige, it doesn't really get you all that much here.
Together, that means that taking larger risks doesn't really have a lot of benefits in general, unless you personally enjoy it.
This is different form the need to have a 'big' change requiring a 'big' risk in order to make your life measurably better (monetarily, prestige, perceived power, or otherwise).
There are endeavours that pose significant risk, but have a significant reward to match; think ITER and CERN; it is a considerable effort and monetary investment without knowing what the true outcome will be. All you know ahead of time is that something will come out of it. (while those two aren't exactly comparable; a single-purpose project vs. an organisation with multiple projects; it's about the concept of risk, investment and possible outcomes or returns)
Say a particle accelerator take a lot of time, labour and money and can be used to make discoveries, but you don't know what discoveries. That means you have a huge investment but no guarantee that you will be able to produce something that has the value of the investment (or more). But there is the chance of significant scientific discovery, which makes it a project that countries are willing to take the risk for.
Expanding on my own word salad: perhaps personally I'd say that in my environment collecting money or 'stuff' in itself isn't seen as valuable, but being able to maintain a good life and have a fulfilling life is. At the same time, in a larger context, things like discovery, exploration and research are valued as well, but boasting or broadcasting about it isn't seen as very valuable. I suppose that also makes for an environment where space exploration is seen as a good thing but ironically without a big PR machine it can't be funded. It's like having a goal without the means.
For example, taking a high risk of attempting to create a unicorn startup for the low reward of having more money isn't really worth it here. That's because the barrier at which point 'more money' makes your life 'better' is much lower. Same goes for prestige, it doesn't really get you all that much here.
Together, that means that taking larger risks doesn't really have a lot of benefits in general, unless you personally enjoy it.
This is different form the need to have a 'big' change requiring a 'big' risk in order to make your life measurably better (monetarily, prestige, perceived power, or otherwise).
There are endeavours that pose significant risk, but have a significant reward to match; think ITER and CERN; it is a considerable effort and monetary investment without knowing what the true outcome will be. All you know ahead of time is that something will come out of it. (while those two aren't exactly comparable; a single-purpose project vs. an organisation with multiple projects; it's about the concept of risk, investment and possible outcomes or returns)
Say a particle accelerator take a lot of time, labour and money and can be used to make discoveries, but you don't know what discoveries. That means you have a huge investment but no guarantee that you will be able to produce something that has the value of the investment (or more). But there is the chance of significant scientific discovery, which makes it a project that countries are willing to take the risk for.
Expanding on my own word salad: perhaps personally I'd say that in my environment collecting money or 'stuff' in itself isn't seen as valuable, but being able to maintain a good life and have a fulfilling life is. At the same time, in a larger context, things like discovery, exploration and research are valued as well, but boasting or broadcasting about it isn't seen as very valuable. I suppose that also makes for an environment where space exploration is seen as a good thing but ironically without a big PR machine it can't be funded. It's like having a goal without the means.
But, is this true? Other than right now, and is this the reason or a consequence?
I ask because, without heavy, heavy, megatron like heavy, investment from the government none of the technologies that now feed this ecosystem would have been developed (semiconductors, internet, etc, there's more, probably even in seemingness fields). Do you imagine any entrepreneur in the USA would have gone "yeah let's just feed this tree some millions to grow the internet"? Or many other industries.
Then there's some other things. Google tried to sell itself for what, 1M at the time? To Yahoo (if I'm not mistaken). They were a search engine. If their proposal would have been accepted there wouldn't have been any google as we know (probably). And we could say that all other examples are heavily, government invested, under or over the covers.
I ask because I'm tired of hearing narratives that leave out of the equation so many important details as to not have any semblance to reality.
I ask because, without heavy, heavy, megatron like heavy, investment from the government none of the technologies that now feed this ecosystem would have been developed (semiconductors, internet, etc, there's more, probably even in seemingness fields). Do you imagine any entrepreneur in the USA would have gone "yeah let's just feed this tree some millions to grow the internet"? Or many other industries.
Then there's some other things. Google tried to sell itself for what, 1M at the time? To Yahoo (if I'm not mistaken). They were a search engine. If their proposal would have been accepted there wouldn't have been any google as we know (probably). And we could say that all other examples are heavily, government invested, under or over the covers.
I ask because I'm tired of hearing narratives that leave out of the equation so many important details as to not have any semblance to reality.
This is not so much a list of "reasons" (though there are levels of impact), it is more a list of, maybe "excuses".
Because I could come up with a big list of reasons why the US would be a bad place to start a company with. It is a good place to start, but even then most of the top high-earners companies are located into 2 or 3 very small geographical areas in the whole US.
China has many more impediments/bureaucracy than the EU (though maybe in different areas) but they have $$$ so problem solved.
Also Americans are very blind to what happens "on the other side of the pond" especially the non-English world. Mojang was bought for $2.5B JustEat/Takeaway is $13B Marketing Cap
Because I could come up with a big list of reasons why the US would be a bad place to start a company with. It is a good place to start, but even then most of the top high-earners companies are located into 2 or 3 very small geographical areas in the whole US.
China has many more impediments/bureaucracy than the EU (though maybe in different areas) but they have $$$ so problem solved.
Also Americans are very blind to what happens "on the other side of the pond" especially the non-English world. Mojang was bought for $2.5B JustEat/Takeaway is $13B Marketing Cap
I mean the problem with China is you have no real control of your company and no real freedom (even if large market and a lot of money). See Jack Ma. Even if you make a huge company worth billions you are still owned by the Communist Party of China.
Klarna, Revolut, and Hellofresh (German founding I believe) immediately pop to mind but I'm sure there are more if I did some searching.
The recent trips to Europe I have been so intrigued by how different the apps people use for many common commercial tasks are to the ones I use at home. I'm assuming there are logistical, cultural, or compliance reasons at play but I can't speak to it.
The recent trips to Europe I have been so intrigued by how different the apps people use for many common commercial tasks are to the ones I use at home. I'm assuming there are logistical, cultural, or compliance reasons at play but I can't speak to it.
Oh agree that there are a ton of other reasons for it was just curious. And to be honest I don't know any of those companies. Vaguely familiar with Klarna, no clue on Revolut, is hellofresh the originator or the follower of Blue Apron?
HelloFresh was founded before Blue Apron. And the modern mealkit business model was invented in Sweden about five years before that.
Gosh, had I earned a dollar every time I heard someone in various US corporate environments declare something to be "amazing", "fantastic" when the thing in question was ... vaguely interesting.
Over-emphasis is definitely and American trait and it leave precious little room in the language to aptly describe the really good stuff
Over-emphasis is definitely and American trait and it leave precious little room in the language to aptly describe the really good stuff
Cross-cultural understanding is really important. It is notorious that Americans have praise inflation, like their GPAs. It's really quite rude to speak frankly in many American settings, or even to damn with faint praise. A positive performance review by a foreign supervisor could have unfortunate repercussions on an American, because it could well sound like they were underperforming.
Likewise, Europeans may seem standoffish and aloof to new world types -- people outside their social circle -- because they are! Don't expect work and social circles to mesh.
You might like to read: https://erinmeyer.com/books/the-culture-map/
Likewise, Europeans may seem standoffish and aloof to new world types -- people outside their social circle -- because they are! Don't expect work and social circles to mesh.
You might like to read: https://erinmeyer.com/books/the-culture-map/
The World's Best Pencil!
American universities attract the best students from all over the world. For example - at Tandon School of Engineering about 80 percent of graduate students hail from foreign countries - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/03/education/edlife/american... American academic STEM research is sustained by the constant flow of the best students from all over the world who are willing to spend 12 hours a day for 4-6 years for a meager grad student stipend. Some are actually even willing to pay for the privilege.
Your point is the most salient of the comments imo. And better than the self-congratulatory article.
US science benefited from a huge influx of European scientists and then sustained itself with large scale grants motivated by the cold war.
The US doesn't have great academic freedom but reasonable academic freedom compared to many places and US achievement is the gold standard for many things in many places so a lot of the best people come here and indeed, sacrifice to be here even as lots of money flows into universities - allowing that money to be effective even when some portion flows into pork also.
It's paradoxical which allows things to seem "better than ever" and "worse than ever" simultaneously.
US science benefited from a huge influx of European scientists and then sustained itself with large scale grants motivated by the cold war.
The US doesn't have great academic freedom but reasonable academic freedom compared to many places and US achievement is the gold standard for many things in many places so a lot of the best people come here and indeed, sacrifice to be here even as lots of money flows into universities - allowing that money to be effective even when some portion flows into pork also.
It's paradoxical which allows things to seem "better than ever" and "worse than ever" simultaneously.
My recollection: We attract students from all over the world because you simply can go to school here. Most other countries have significant barriers to entry for college that we lack.
In some countries, you have to choose between a trade school track and a college track around the time you enter high school and there is little to no opportunity to change tracks at a later date.
In some countries, you have to choose between a trade school track and a college track around the time you enter high school and there is little to no opportunity to change tracks at a later date.
For some of them it's motivated by a hope for a path to citizenship
People from around the world work for low pay in grad school because the opportunities afterwards are much better in the US, either in industry which is where most go now, or even in academia. The federal government dumps more money into research grants than any other country, and this is able to support a lot of researchers and generate a mountain of scientific output.
This brief discussion utterly ignores World War II and James Conant* who transformed the nature of US research universities.
While president of Harvard, he was recruited to run the National Defense Research Committee which gave him authority during the war to pour massive funding into key Universities (most notably MIT and UC Berkeley, but numerous others as well) turning them into government research labs just as companies were turned into government armament manufacturers. Oh yeah, the NDRC oversaw the Manhattan project as well.
After the war he continued and expanded this program as part of the Cold War effort. You can see this at the major research labs today: MIT, for example, is barely a "University" in the educational sense; it's really a large, mainly government-funded research institution (like the European ones) with a small school bolted onto the side. Education is less than 15% of its budget.
Conant also promulgated the SAT BTW; his buddy developed it and also made a fortune on training people and running the test. The usual OB network.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_B._Conant
While president of Harvard, he was recruited to run the National Defense Research Committee which gave him authority during the war to pour massive funding into key Universities (most notably MIT and UC Berkeley, but numerous others as well) turning them into government research labs just as companies were turned into government armament manufacturers. Oh yeah, the NDRC oversaw the Manhattan project as well.
After the war he continued and expanded this program as part of the Cold War effort. You can see this at the major research labs today: MIT, for example, is barely a "University" in the educational sense; it's really a large, mainly government-funded research institution (like the European ones) with a small school bolted onto the side. Education is less than 15% of its budget.
Conant also promulgated the SAT BTW; his buddy developed it and also made a fortune on training people and running the test. The usual OB network.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_B._Conant
And on what criteria are comparisons based? Oh yeah, just the ones that fit american cultural expectations of what being a good university is. How convenient!
University grading systems are the truest expression of american cultural imperialism, shaping education systems all around the world.
University grading systems are the truest expression of american cultural imperialism, shaping education systems all around the world.
I think two important factors make U.S. unique:
1) The variety of people from different backgrounds cross-pollinating with each other. This takes places in other countries, but not nearly to the same degree.
2) An open and unregimented society, relatively speaking, allows for more cross-pollination with other layers of society. For example, how many other countries make it possible to study under the "Steve Jobs program"?
1) The variety of people from different backgrounds cross-pollinating with each other. This takes places in other countries, but not nearly to the same degree.
2) An open and unregimented society, relatively speaking, allows for more cross-pollination with other layers of society. For example, how many other countries make it possible to study under the "Steve Jobs program"?
The title assumes something and goes into looking for answers.
How about the following articles from Nature that paint a differnt picture instead of that assumption?
[0] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03318-w [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01922-z
How about the following articles from Nature that paint a differnt picture instead of that assumption?
[0] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03318-w [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01922-z
tenure exists in many countries, sounds relatively irrelevant. After all the US doesnt have nearly as many tenure positions as would be required, as does (not) the rest of the world.
In US, even if research doesnt pan out, there's lots of industries to pursue. Also, universities in US/UK have fees and actively pursue students from abroad, whereas this barely exists in continental europe. I doubt there's something structurally superior in US universities, the main reason seems to be that US in general gives the best opportunity to those who are capable, and also, money
In US, even if research doesnt pan out, there's lots of industries to pursue. Also, universities in US/UK have fees and actively pursue students from abroad, whereas this barely exists in continental europe. I doubt there's something structurally superior in US universities, the main reason seems to be that US in general gives the best opportunity to those who are capable, and also, money
Urgh, what a cheap marketing flick. Chasing yet more vanity metrics...
Also, what even constitutes "best" (not good) research? Nobody knows.
Also, what even constitutes "best" (not good) research? Nobody knows.
“Best universities” according to which measure?
I find it super difficult to come up with a hard set of criteria that measure the performance of an educational institution. Number of graduates? Number of research papers published? Amount of grant income? Can all be gamed.
Strength of character and depth of personality of graduates would be a good metric, but is impossible to measure.
I find it super difficult to come up with a hard set of criteria that measure the performance of an educational institution. Number of graduates? Number of research papers published? Amount of grant income? Can all be gamed.
Strength of character and depth of personality of graduates would be a good metric, but is impossible to measure.
Arguably, "strength of character and depth of personality" is something inherent to the people, not something they get in or from a university.
So if you could such a metric, it would reflect which university manages to attract the best highschoolers, not which university is best at educating them (i.e. which university is likely to improve you most should you choose to go there) or producing research results.
So if you could such a metric, it would reflect which university manages to attract the best highschoolers, not which university is best at educating them (i.e. which university is likely to improve you most should you choose to go there) or producing research results.
I tend to disagree. Good universities (as well as other schools) feed students’ curiosity and sense of exploration. Bad ones just push them through an educational assembly line where they graduate at the end. The former boosts students’ self-confidence and personality development, the latter doesn’t.
> Can all be gamed.
Yeah, it’s uncomfortable that often the fame comes before the actual quality, because they gamed it. But then there got to be a start. Self-PR is one major critical weapon in the country that pushes freedom to the maximum extent.
Yeah, it’s uncomfortable that often the fame comes before the actual quality, because they gamed it. But then there got to be a start. Self-PR is one major critical weapon in the country that pushes freedom to the maximum extent.
But how to tell if a university is really the best or just pretends to be?
The US values creativity I think in a way many other cultures value discipline. I think we need a bit more discipline, though.
The quote below struck me as odd:
"The emergence of it [tenure] in the US, in fact, helped place the US on good footing to compete at research with Europe, which does not have that institution as much."
because AFAIK many European universities had something like tenure already. In Germany (like today) professors were government employees that could not be fired. I think this had been the case since Humbold and was part of having academic freedom as a pilar of the system. I think both French and British universities had a similar concept. So it is weird that tenure is being painted as something special to the US.
"The emergence of it [tenure] in the US, in fact, helped place the US on good footing to compete at research with Europe, which does not have that institution as much."
because AFAIK many European universities had something like tenure already. In Germany (like today) professors were government employees that could not be fired. I think this had been the case since Humbold and was part of having academic freedom as a pilar of the system. I think both French and British universities had a similar concept. So it is weird that tenure is being painted as something special to the US.
Maybe they are highlighting the competition aspect.
In a survey of scientists from 16 countries (http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-careers/the-global-bra... ), the US is the top destination from 13 of the 15 others and the #2 choice from the other two. If you are a Canadian scientist, there is a 16% chance (https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/37lgxg/the... ) that you will move to the US. That's not "16% of all Canadian scientists that move out of the country move to the US". Let me repeat: *16% of all Canadian scientists move to the US.* They're also likely to be among the top Canadian scientists, too.
By comparison, 5% of all American scientists move to another country, of which 32% go to Canada, so about 1.6-1.7% total. Since the US has nine times more people, that means that in absolute numbers the 1.7% of American scientists is about equal to the 16% of Canadian scientists, but there is no reason to think that the 1.7% makes up the top tier of American scientists; why would the best move north of the border? In other words, the US is receiving the best of Canadian scientists in exchange for an equal number of its non-best.
By comparison, 5% of all American scientists move to another country, of which 32% go to Canada, so about 1.6-1.7% total. Since the US has nine times more people, that means that in absolute numbers the 1.7% of American scientists is about equal to the 16% of Canadian scientists, but there is no reason to think that the 1.7% makes up the top tier of American scientists; why would the best move north of the border? In other words, the US is receiving the best of Canadian scientists in exchange for an equal number of its non-best.
But does it matter if you have an extreme wealth gap, a culture of fear and violence, and a lot of people living in poverty?
It's always nice to point out the things that are doing great according to some metrics, but when put in perspective, what does it end up doing for the people? It shouldn't mean that "unless it benefits blue collar workers it doesn't need to exist", but you'd expect tooting one's own national horn to be put in context a bit better.
It's always nice to point out the things that are doing great according to some metrics, but when put in perspective, what does it end up doing for the people? It shouldn't mean that "unless it benefits blue collar workers it doesn't need to exist", but you'd expect tooting one's own national horn to be put in context a bit better.
Is this really a case of “tooting one’s own national horn”?
Or is the interviewee just discussing historical global factors that gave US universities an edge over the past centuries?
These knee jerk reactions whenever anything vaguely positive is said about the US have gotten a bit tired.
Or is the interviewee just discussing historical global factors that gave US universities an edge over the past centuries?
These knee jerk reactions whenever anything vaguely positive is said about the US have gotten a bit tired.
By what measure are US universities evaluated to be “best” at research? It’s a bold claim to make.
I really don’t think that’s up for a contest. Just MIT and Stanford alone would be considered the best in the world. Now add entities such as the Bell Labs of yesteryears.
Because they have the most money.
> Because they have the most money.
Agree, but then you've got to dig deeper: where does the money come from?
Agree, but then you've got to dig deeper: where does the money come from?
Historical reasons. Europe was wrecked in WW1 and WW2.
South Korea and Germany was a bombed out hellscape at the end of the Korean War and it’s rich now. Singapore and Hong Kong were also lacking in capital per capita. More importantly it’s been over 70 years. At the end of the war Silicon Valley was at best in embryo. Taiwan’s semiconductor industry did not exist.
“Historical reasons” is weaksauce if you can’t actually say what they are.
“Historical reasons” is weaksauce if you can’t actually say what they are.
Bingo
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considering how most[1] of the best scientists from most countries eventually immigrate to the US, the reverse is true
1. Probably, based on nobel prizes https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/teaser/19646.jpeg
1. Probably, based on nobel prizes https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/teaser/19646.jpeg
"Most" is an exaggeration. But many? Yes. In a survey of scientists from 16 countries (http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-careers/the-global-bra... ), the US is the top destination from 13 of the 15 others and the #2 choice from the other two. If you are a Canadian scientist, there is a 16% chance (https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/37lgxg/the... ) that you will move to the US. That's not "16% of all Canadian scientists that move out of the country move to the US". Let me repeat: *16% of all Canadian scientists move to the US.* They're also likely to be among the top Canadian scientists, too.
By comparison, 5% of all American scientists move to another country, of which 32% go to Canada, so about 1.6-1.7% total. Since the US has nine times more people, that means that in absolute numbers the 1.7% of American scientists is about equal to the 16% of Canadian scientists, but there is no reason to think that the 1.7% makes up the top tier of American scientists; why would the best move north of the border? In other words, the US is receiving the best of Canadian scientists in exchange for an equal number of its non-best.
By comparison, 5% of all American scientists move to another country, of which 32% go to Canada, so about 1.6-1.7% total. Since the US has nine times more people, that means that in absolute numbers the 1.7% of American scientists is about equal to the 16% of Canadian scientists, but there is no reason to think that the 1.7% makes up the top tier of American scientists; why would the best move north of the border? In other words, the US is receiving the best of Canadian scientists in exchange for an equal number of its non-best.
Normalised for population, Switzerland blows the competition out of the water. The Swiss have twice the Nobel laureates per capita than the US, 2.5 times more than the Uk, seven times more than Germany.
Well, maybe because they extort indecent amount of money from their students to pay top researchers more than any other country.
More than half of the Ph.D. students in US came from abroad.
More than half of the Ph.D. students in US came from abroad.
And yet I'd never want to go through the brutal/grinding process of a PhD in the United States.
You guys have it really bad in terms of workload, length and insane costs.
You guys have it really bad in terms of workload, length and insane costs.
College rankings, research citations, and money are heavily valued in the US. In Europe, there is much more emphasis on equality.
Tons of research funding happens in the US because corporations lobby Congress to give money for research, which props up the status of those schools, and more research comes out.
US draws more foreign students than I suspect any other country with all this research money, which in turn draws more status and money.
Tons of research funding happens in the US because corporations lobby Congress to give money for research, which props up the status of those schools, and more research comes out.
US draws more foreign students than I suspect any other country with all this research money, which in turn draws more status and money.
This (not so much the article, but the discussion so far) reads to me like that essay in the movie "Thank you for Smoking." Highly recommended.
Lets not fool ourselves. First and foremost the money is here and the business environment (capitalism) is the most favorable than any other region of the world.
Having studied and worked in universities in the US, France, Russia, the UK, and Japan, this is closest to my experience. US universities like Harvard have a ton of money that they can throw around in order to get the best researchers. The one downside for professors is that since students are often paying so much, they expect a better teaching experience, meaning more lectures, more office hours, more feedback, etc. This is particularly the case in business schools.
Harvard has very small class sizes....
It hasn’t always been this way. Prior to the 1900s the wealth was outside the US. Capitalism existed in the world before the US, possibly in more extreme forms. It seems like you’re discounting the possibility the US education system & government contributed to the current economic situation. To what do you attribute the change?
Didn’t the rise of the US as a superpower mainly came down to financial gains during World War 1?
The US become the world's largest economy somewhere around the 1880s or 1890s. By that time, it was a world-leading innovator in several (but by no means all) technologies, perhaps railroads most of all (e.g., the US switched to automatic couplers in the 1890s; the EU is piloting switching to them now, 130 years later).
However, despite its immense economic prowess, the US did not play a major part in international affairs, often explicitly choosing to stay out of European debacles. (This is often called isolationism, but that's not a wholly accurate description of foreign policy). For its part, Europe also generally ignored the US: a posting to the US would have been seen as a punishment rather than an honor, taking the person involved outside of the social circles of Europe.
When WWI strikes, the US stays out of the war in the initial phases before changing its mind and getting involved. As the only party involved which didn't eviscerate its population by war, it gained a lot of leverage over the peace treaty... which it promptly squandered by going isolationist again and staying out of the European squabbles. During WWII, Roosevelt again takes a leading role in dictating the terms of the peace treaties and post-war diplomatic order, with the US actually staying in the role afterwards, unlike WWI.
The term "superpower" is usually only used to analyze the roles of countries in the post-WW2 order, with the US and the USSR (and, briefly, the UK) afforded the role of superpower since they dominate the world political sphere. Before WWI, the analysis is in terms of great powers, and is mostly looking at their influence within the idea of the "Concert of Europe." Here, despite the US's economic strength, its noninterest in Europe renders it outside of most discussions of great power politics. And between the wars, pretty much the only analysis people care to do is in how the stage is set for WWII.
This is a long-winded way of saying that the answer to your question is "no."
However, despite its immense economic prowess, the US did not play a major part in international affairs, often explicitly choosing to stay out of European debacles. (This is often called isolationism, but that's not a wholly accurate description of foreign policy). For its part, Europe also generally ignored the US: a posting to the US would have been seen as a punishment rather than an honor, taking the person involved outside of the social circles of Europe.
When WWI strikes, the US stays out of the war in the initial phases before changing its mind and getting involved. As the only party involved which didn't eviscerate its population by war, it gained a lot of leverage over the peace treaty... which it promptly squandered by going isolationist again and staying out of the European squabbles. During WWII, Roosevelt again takes a leading role in dictating the terms of the peace treaties and post-war diplomatic order, with the US actually staying in the role afterwards, unlike WWI.
The term "superpower" is usually only used to analyze the roles of countries in the post-WW2 order, with the US and the USSR (and, briefly, the UK) afforded the role of superpower since they dominate the world political sphere. Before WWI, the analysis is in terms of great powers, and is mostly looking at their influence within the idea of the "Concert of Europe." Here, despite the US's economic strength, its noninterest in Europe renders it outside of most discussions of great power politics. And between the wars, pretty much the only analysis people care to do is in how the stage is set for WWII.
This is a long-winded way of saying that the answer to your question is "no."
Pretty much. Their main geopolitical rivals in Europe imploded thanks to WWI and WWII. Had Europe not levelled itself, the USA likely would never have caught up in terms of economic superiority, and the USA would've remained a strongly isolationist middle power.
(Now keep in mind that the prospect of a peaceful 20th century Europe is unrealistic. Europe was a warring tinderbox at the time, and even if WWI and WWII had not happened, a conflict of similar scale likely would've broken out in Europe regardless. Any number of destructive conflicts could've broken out, including a Soviet invasion of Germany and Western Europe. In short, it's really hard to construct a timeline where the USA wouldn't have been catapulted into superpower status due to war in Europe)
(Now keep in mind that the prospect of a peaceful 20th century Europe is unrealistic. Europe was a warring tinderbox at the time, and even if WWI and WWII had not happened, a conflict of similar scale likely would've broken out in Europe regardless. Any number of destructive conflicts could've broken out, including a Soviet invasion of Germany and Western Europe. In short, it's really hard to construct a timeline where the USA wouldn't have been catapulted into superpower status due to war in Europe)
The US was the biggest economy in the world by the late 1800’s.
World War 2 was the one that really solidifed the US’s spot as a superpower, and in both cases it had as much to do with Europe’s losses from the wars as it did with anything the US gained. It also seriously helps that the US is a gigantic country filled with an abundance of natural resources. Europe destroying itself twice right as modern industrialization kicked into high gear, along with those resources, are what turned the US into a superpower.
also, the US had a major advantage in terms of geography. the country is sided by two major oceans from both sides without any neighbour who could form a threat.
compare this to pre ww1 Europe, which was a tinderbox thanks to multiple empires (with a major history of going to war with each other for resources or people) becoming rapidly industrialised and waiting to get back "their land/people" from a precious war.
compare this to pre ww1 Europe, which was a tinderbox thanks to multiple empires (with a major history of going to war with each other for resources or people) becoming rapidly industrialised and waiting to get back "their land/people" from a precious war.
Certainly helped but that is but one lens to look at it. Another lens is the US is endowed with incredible amounts of natural resources that have been utilized over the last century where as former super powers didn't have that same capability. A gross oversimplifications for sure but part of the equation.
This article best describes what I've trying to convey:
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/who_pays
> To what do you attribute the change?
Socialist tendencies in the EU are a 20th century thing.
Europe was far more capitalist in the 18th and 19th century.
Socialist tendencies in the EU are a 20th century thing.
Europe was far more capitalist in the 18th and 19th century.
My impression: Europe does pretty well in non computer-science areas.
This is funny to hear, because a lot of the CS research I care about, namely compilers, comes from Europe, particularly IIRC ETH Zurich.
There will always be exceptions to generalizations. One or a few exceptions dont't make the generalizations less valid.
Fair enough. I wasn't being sarcastic when I said it was funny. :)
Exception:INRIA.
> Exception:INRIA.
Name one successful (as in: >1G$ cap) company started by INRIA researchers.
Name one successful (as in: >1G$ cap) company started by INRIA researchers.
I thought the question was about research strength, not money-making strength.
Although capitalisation is not really about making money rather than promising to make money later.
Pretty much orthogonal to the aim of research.
You've just elucidated all that is wrong with EU research.
You won't have money for fundamental research if you don't have a huge focus, as a research institute, on economic output.
You won't have money for fundamental research if you don't have a huge focus, as a research institute, on economic output.
In the EU, money for fundamental research comes from the government. I agree that this means less money and perhaps more bureaucracy, but als less dependence on economic trends and fads in the industry, and the ability to focus on fundamental questions without having to chase commercialisation.
I know both sides, EU and US approaches to research and research funding, and I think both have their strengths and weaknesses. But either way I think measuring research performance by the amount of money made is the wrong measure.
I know both sides, EU and US approaches to research and research funding, and I think both have their strengths and weaknesses. But either way I think measuring research performance by the amount of money made is the wrong measure.
In CS it's kind of combined.
Hm. One can do awesome CS research without having to make tons of money. One can also make money with other people’s/universities’/countries’ CS research while doing zero CS research in-house.
Research and money making are pretty much orthogonal.
With research I refer to fundamental CS research, not how to squeeze 0.00053% more out of imagenet or making photos of young people look old, or solving problems of logistics in driver scheduling.
With research I refer to fundamental CS research, not how to squeeze 0.00053% more out of imagenet or making photos of young people look old, or solving problems of logistics in driver scheduling.
Okay, let me rephrase this: The current strategy is great for individual researchers - when they become successfull they can get a great $400k/year job in the US. It sucks for the europeans who paid for them to get there though.
Funny enough, the way Germany’s Max-Planck Society is successful in hiring top US scientists not through outrageous salaries, but by offering them guaranteed, generous research budget in perpetuity.
Not all researchers care about getting rich personally.
Karl Marx would be so proud of you.
No need to get personal. All I’m saying is that research success is not well measured by the amount of money it reels in. That doesn’t mean scientists should not make money.
It just means the one has little to do with the other. Orthogonal.
I know excellent scientists who are rich and equally excellent ones who are poor. I also know some intellectually less well endowed folks who are crazy rich.
Money and research success have little to do with each other. All I’m saying.
It just means the one has little to do with the other. Orthogonal.
I know excellent scientists who are rich and equally excellent ones who are poor. I also know some intellectually less well endowed folks who are crazy rich.
Money and research success have little to do with each other. All I’m saying.
I searched for INRIA success stories. I found the MLdonkey peer-to-peer client written in OCaml. (I do remember using it many years ago. It was odd.)
Where are the successful, world-changing company spinoffs?
Where are the successful, world-changing company spinoffs?
Ok, that's the wrong measure. But didn't they sponsor basically the whole OCaml compiler, which has gone on to be hugely influential?
> Ok, that's the wrong measure.
Is it though? I guess that's the difference between Europe and US in CS. In the US they find a way to make money on the innovations.
Is it though? I guess that's the difference between Europe and US in CS. In the US they find a way to make money on the innovations.
Yes, it is wrong. Financial success is only one proxy for impact, and not an especially good one in my view. Lots of things that really maybe the world better will make no money, and in fact reduce a lot of companies' incomes by making purchases unnecessary. Open source software is a prime example.
The biggest and most useful open source projects are often either funded or created by financially successful corporations. The rest of open source is generally rife with useless junk that benefits almost no one (except maybe the author) precisely because there is no pressure to validate ideas and outcomes with money. This isn't an argument or discouragement against open source, but any financially successful product is a billion times more likely to be impactful and useful than sampling by almost any other factor like open source.
Whereas in Europe university driven innovations are often placed in the public domain, especially in France. What is better for society? Depends on the viewpoint I guess.
Now pause to think about how e.g. France has made the EU spend many, many billions to create a search engine that can replace Google? (Unlikely.)
Google earns money with advertising. They also do some kick-ass CS research, but that’s not what makes the money. In fact, ad sales fund Google’s research.
> They also do some kick-ass CS research, but that’s not what makes the money.
Yeah, that's kind of known.
Yeah, that's kind of known.
Exactly. Google churns out awesome innovation, but hardly any of that makes any money. Proving the point that money making is not what measures research success.
Same reason tech companies go to Silicon Valley. Go where the money is; network effects. Also the US dollar allows unlimited debt to be issued.
The reason Bulverism is a formal fallacy.
In the US it's ok for the private sector to fund universities, very different story in Europe...
1. Because before WWII they(together with the UK) received with open arms the Jews that were expelled by Nazism and were half the Nobel prices in science.
2. Because they won the WWII and took by force the best scientist in Germany that was the leader in the world in science and technology at the time. The other half was taken by the Soviet Union. The lingua franca in science was German, not English.
3.Because after the war, Europe was devastated and living conditions in the reconstruction were very poor(with things like having to work for free for the Government X hours a week) for scientists(and the rest of society) while crossing the Atlantic conditions were much better so the best scientist did.
4. Because after Breton Woods and Marshall's plan, the US became the hegemonic power in the world with the biggest market in the world and started transforming scientific ideas into products that generated wealth and became cheaper as they were mass produced.
5. Because they didn't have a socialistic economy like most of the world had and the best, most ambitious and brightest minds from socialistic countries fled there expecting to share some part of the wealth they created and have the freedom they lacked in their countries.
Remember in the block countries being educated in the old bourgeois system,having accumulated wealth in the past or being son or grandson of one who had was a crime, making you a candidate for suspicion and prosecution (and eventual extermination).
Stalin had a plan to exterminate all Jews in Russia(almost all revolutionaries like Lenin or Trotsky had Jewish origin), he did not complete his plan because he died before he could.
It is incredible that making an analysis they could not see the most obvious and basic geopolitical events.
2. Because they won the WWII and took by force the best scientist in Germany that was the leader in the world in science and technology at the time. The other half was taken by the Soviet Union. The lingua franca in science was German, not English.
3.Because after the war, Europe was devastated and living conditions in the reconstruction were very poor(with things like having to work for free for the Government X hours a week) for scientists(and the rest of society) while crossing the Atlantic conditions were much better so the best scientist did.
4. Because after Breton Woods and Marshall's plan, the US became the hegemonic power in the world with the biggest market in the world and started transforming scientific ideas into products that generated wealth and became cheaper as they were mass produced.
5. Because they didn't have a socialistic economy like most of the world had and the best, most ambitious and brightest minds from socialistic countries fled there expecting to share some part of the wealth they created and have the freedom they lacked in their countries.
Remember in the block countries being educated in the old bourgeois system,having accumulated wealth in the past or being son or grandson of one who had was a crime, making you a candidate for suspicion and prosecution (and eventual extermination).
Stalin had a plan to exterminate all Jews in Russia(almost all revolutionaries like Lenin or Trotsky had Jewish origin), he did not complete his plan because he died before he could.
It is incredible that making an analysis they could not see the most obvious and basic geopolitical events.
Has it?
[deleted]
Because WWI and Nazi Germany drove the best scientists from Europe to the US?
It's been 80 years. No other great scientists were born in Europe in the past 80 years?
Yes, and then they too moved to the US to study or work.
Look at any top US university’s STEM faculty? What percentage are native born? It is shockingly low.
Look at any top US university’s STEM faculty? What percentage are native born? It is shockingly low.
I don’t think that’s inconsistent with the article’s narrative that the US succeeded by offering strong incentives and prioritizing research.
If these brilliant people had the option to do this in their home country, they probably would. Moving to a completely different country is difficult.
If these brilliant people had the option to do this in their home country, they probably would. Moving to a completely different country is difficult.
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Maybe b/c they import indentured "students" from China? (overheard by Eric Weinstein)
It doesn't
What a vacuous article; even for one that actually takes a look at the history -- the "how did this come about?" It's as if it's been blanched, and the result taken as all there is to know---a skin-deep truth.
The U.S does not have "the best research universities," it simply has the most "prestigious ones," that continue to survive and thrive due to centuries of compounding network effects (and a little of help from the 19th century American middle class and a lot of help from the wholesale philanthropy of our robber barons).
Research had been considered a dilettante endeavor, meant only for the betters, until those lower down the ladder decided "I want that," and went off to try and "learn" their way into becoming cultured (see: gentlemen).
And not even a single mention of how the real "university revolution" (where being an academic is now a middle class job, instead of simply an upper class past-time), were spear-headed by Fred Taylor and Fred Gates. Both of these preachers-turned-family-office-managers were vital for the adoption and expansion of "scientific" and "medical" schools of thought (in order to fuel the industrial and allopathic medical industries -- to make more money and get more bodies).
Skin-deep this article is.
The U.S does not have "the best research universities," it simply has the most "prestigious ones," that continue to survive and thrive due to centuries of compounding network effects (and a little of help from the 19th century American middle class and a lot of help from the wholesale philanthropy of our robber barons).
Research had been considered a dilettante endeavor, meant only for the betters, until those lower down the ladder decided "I want that," and went off to try and "learn" their way into becoming cultured (see: gentlemen).
And not even a single mention of how the real "university revolution" (where being an academic is now a middle class job, instead of simply an upper class past-time), were spear-headed by Fred Taylor and Fred Gates. Both of these preachers-turned-family-office-managers were vital for the adoption and expansion of "scientific" and "medical" schools of thought (in order to fuel the industrial and allopathic medical industries -- to make more money and get more bodies).
Skin-deep this article is.
> Skin-deep this article is.
Yoda you have watched lately?
SCNR
Yoda you have watched lately?
SCNR
Think it has a lot to do with the fact the US is a free country.