Office Chairs Are Scam(scottlocklin.wordpress.com)
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Office Chairs Are Scam
https://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2021/04/23/office-chairs-are-a-scam/
47 comments
> Too bad these expensive chairs don't help.
Huh, I thought an important aspect of ergonomic chairs was that they were customizable to fit the people for whom "out of the box" doesn't work
Huh, I thought an important aspect of ergonomic chairs was that they were customizable to fit the people for whom "out of the box" doesn't work
Wait, did I miss the memo that made 5’11” the middle of the bell curve?
According to this census data (https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/2010/compendia/...), 5'9" only gets to the 45th percentile for males age 30-39, and 5'11" doesn't quite cross the 70th percentile. So yeah I'd consider that the middle part of the bell curve, at least if we're talking about modern-era American men.
I'm pretty sure people younger than 30 and older than 39 also use chairs. So you can't limit the calculation to a certain age range.
For years, I had a cheap office max desk chair, thenone day I splurged on Areon chair.
With the office max chair, I squirmed and moved all day long, uncomfortable after 20 min. I had this chair for 6 years.
With the Aeron, I could blissfully work, and not move muscle for 4 hours or more. I had this chair for a few years.
After a few years with the Aeron, I had some awful back problems. I attribute this to my body relaxing so much in a semi upright position that the muscles were not activated enough to support the spine and good posture. Worse, when I got up, the muscles were not activated, unless I specifically did movements to wake up the correct chains.
Then I got a new job which had cheap chairs and a sit/standing desk and was here for 6 years.
Many years later, a combo therapies, balance boards, and cheap office chairs that force me to squirm, move and get up, seem to have solved the issue.
I'll never get a chair that is "too" comfortable again for work as it really messed up my back.
With the office max chair, I squirmed and moved all day long, uncomfortable after 20 min. I had this chair for 6 years.
With the Aeron, I could blissfully work, and not move muscle for 4 hours or more. I had this chair for a few years.
After a few years with the Aeron, I had some awful back problems. I attribute this to my body relaxing so much in a semi upright position that the muscles were not activated enough to support the spine and good posture. Worse, when I got up, the muscles were not activated, unless I specifically did movements to wake up the correct chains.
Then I got a new job which had cheap chairs and a sit/standing desk and was here for 6 years.
Many years later, a combo therapies, balance boards, and cheap office chairs that force me to squirm, move and get up, seem to have solved the issue.
I'll never get a chair that is "too" comfortable again for work as it really messed up my back.
It's not the chair that's the problem, is the sedentary style.
You should really take time do strength exercises for your back, three or more times a week, always.
Since I started working out regularly 7 or so years ago (I'm in my mid forties), never again I had any back pains, and my sitting style is awful (I kind of melt in the chair).
You should really take time do strength exercises for your back, three or more times a week, always.
Since I started working out regularly 7 or so years ago (I'm in my mid forties), never again I had any back pains, and my sitting style is awful (I kind of melt in the chair).
Sort of agree.
I do Pilates and yoga 3-5x a week, as well as regular body weight training and surf, so am fairly fit and very focused on back and core health.
For me, it's the lack of movement during intense periods of focus - four hour blocks, over many years, sometimes 16 hr days. At least with the bad chair, I'm always moving, keeping the support muscles active. When I sit for a long time, and forget the core, I think is when compromise to key systems occur.
What I'm not good at is getting up every 20 min, if I did, I'm sure I'd be fine.
I do Pilates and yoga 3-5x a week, as well as regular body weight training and surf, so am fairly fit and very focused on back and core health.
For me, it's the lack of movement during intense periods of focus - four hour blocks, over many years, sometimes 16 hr days. At least with the bad chair, I'm always moving, keeping the support muscles active. When I sit for a long time, and forget the core, I think is when compromise to key systems occur.
What I'm not good at is getting up every 20 min, if I did, I'm sure I'd be fine.
That’s funny, because I haven’t heard many people say that Herman Miller chairs are actually that comfortable. More that you spend $1000+ and sit on it and think, “Oh, it’s a chair.” They’re comfortable enough, to me at least, and they’re well made. Having one at work and one at home, I don’t have to shift around all day, but I’m definitely not left sitting in a single position or slumped all day either. It’s no wood stool nor a recliner, in other words.
Agreed. Definitely wasn't slumped. More like endlessly focused on the task at hand, under deadline. As a tool to keep the mind focused on the work, the Aeron rocked it. Until it didn't because of the back issues.
I have a tendency to forget my body when I focus, which is a plus and minus. It's great for the work, not so great for the body, so having a chair that reminds the body to be active is a plus for the long term.
Personally, I like the combo of a balance board/standing desk. As standing without the board, also caused me to collapse into a leg causing tightness, but with the balance board, I'm always in a slight state of motion, and the muscles are active, so I'm ready to go when it's time to move. As I've aged, I find my focus is actually enhanced as well.
I have a tendency to forget my body when I focus, which is a plus and minus. It's great for the work, not so great for the body, so having a chair that reminds the body to be active is a plus for the long term.
Personally, I like the combo of a balance board/standing desk. As standing without the board, also caused me to collapse into a leg causing tightness, but with the balance board, I'm always in a slight state of motion, and the muscles are active, so I'm ready to go when it's time to move. As I've aged, I find my focus is actually enhanced as well.
The author's About page says he has "a particular dislike of self-anointed 'experts,'" but that seems to be exactly what he is.
Does anyone really like themselves? ;)
This article had a great run-up but absolutely bonked on the landing.
Paraphrasing:
> [expensive] office chairs are a waste of money because their value proposition, ergonomics, is essentially snake oil.
Okay, good job, but then the wheels come off and he wanders around for a couple paragraphs.
Instead he should have just sprinted it in with:
> In reality a fit and healthy body is the only thing one can do to achieve "comfort" -or rather, being strong enough to not be discomforted- in any office chair for any length of time. Big Chair can't make money off that, so they say it's in their secret (and expensive) ergonomic sauce, not in you who are made in Gods image.
Paraphrasing:
> [expensive] office chairs are a waste of money because their value proposition, ergonomics, is essentially snake oil.
Okay, good job, but then the wheels come off and he wanders around for a couple paragraphs.
Instead he should have just sprinted it in with:
> In reality a fit and healthy body is the only thing one can do to achieve "comfort" -or rather, being strong enough to not be discomforted- in any office chair for any length of time. Big Chair can't make money off that, so they say it's in their secret (and expensive) ergonomic sauce, not in you who are made in Gods image.
I stopped reading when the author said "there is no such thing as ergonomics". I feel like I've seen plenty of research otherwise. It's probably (definitely) overplayed to make sales, but there's no need to deny it's existence
It's complicated.
On the one hand, there are extremely valid aspects to ergonomics, with regards to seat height, table height, monitor height, wrist angle, etc. That can make all the difference for things like carpal tunnel, shoulder tension, headaches, etc.
On the other hand, the amount of nonsense peddled around ideas such as lumbar support, supposedly ergonomic keyboards, and the like is astronomical. And many supposedly "ergonomic" chairs are actually precisely the opposite, and terrible for your body. In fact, chairs are almost certainly the #1 worst offenders.
So the reality is that ergonomics around measurements and angles of your body, and the tasks you perform, is real and valuable.
On the other hand, ergonomics as marketing and product attributes is almost entirely hogwash.
I do sympathize with people who have come to the conclusion that ergonomics is useless -- or worse than useless -- because all they've ever encountered is the useless marketing side. I mean, so few people have ever actually had a real ergonomics expert analyze their workstation and correct their setup, that it's pretty understandable to think they don't exist. (Also, many corporate so-called ergonomic "experts" aren't at all, and just pretend to validate the ergonomic "products" -- so even if you want a true ergonomic consultation, it's going to be a true challenge to even find someone who's actually qualified.)
On the one hand, there are extremely valid aspects to ergonomics, with regards to seat height, table height, monitor height, wrist angle, etc. That can make all the difference for things like carpal tunnel, shoulder tension, headaches, etc.
On the other hand, the amount of nonsense peddled around ideas such as lumbar support, supposedly ergonomic keyboards, and the like is astronomical. And many supposedly "ergonomic" chairs are actually precisely the opposite, and terrible for your body. In fact, chairs are almost certainly the #1 worst offenders.
So the reality is that ergonomics around measurements and angles of your body, and the tasks you perform, is real and valuable.
On the other hand, ergonomics as marketing and product attributes is almost entirely hogwash.
I do sympathize with people who have come to the conclusion that ergonomics is useless -- or worse than useless -- because all they've ever encountered is the useless marketing side. I mean, so few people have ever actually had a real ergonomics expert analyze their workstation and correct their setup, that it's pretty understandable to think they don't exist. (Also, many corporate so-called ergonomic "experts" aren't at all, and just pretend to validate the ergonomic "products" -- so even if you want a true ergonomic consultation, it's going to be a true challenge to even find someone who's actually qualified.)
I think this is more of a general statement on marketing, is it not? A lot of the buzzwords people throw around do mean something, it's just that the context is ripped out of them to sell all kinds of nonsense products.
No, most marketing is still based on actual facts.
"50% thinner" or "increased battery life" or "ripstop nylon" all refer to actual tangible benefits that are measurable and objective. They might be benefits you don't need, or apply only under ideal conditions, but they're still objective.
"Ergonomic" as applied to products refers to no measurable benefit at all. It's even worse than "green", which at least can be presumably translated into some measurable change in recycling, carbon, etc. "Ergonomic" has literally no objective quantity or quality it can be translated into whatsoever as a product attribute.
"50% thinner" or "increased battery life" or "ripstop nylon" all refer to actual tangible benefits that are measurable and objective. They might be benefits you don't need, or apply only under ideal conditions, but they're still objective.
"Ergonomic" as applied to products refers to no measurable benefit at all. It's even worse than "green", which at least can be presumably translated into some measurable change in recycling, carbon, etc. "Ergonomic" has literally no objective quantity or quality it can be translated into whatsoever as a product attribute.
You're absolutely right. The author should tell that to my carpal tunnel.
My pet peeve is those ergonomics pamphlets with, not pictures of actual humans, but cartoony illustrations of supposedly ideal posture. Sometimes not even with realistic proportions. Never a citation of any actual research, just platitudes that whoever wrote the pamphlet heard from their parents once or just came up with on the spot. Probably given out just to satisfy some lawyer or insurance company to reduce worker's comp liability issues, so who cares if it's science-based or beneficial in the slightest.
> devil worshipping blood-drinking pothead
I don't see a problem here
EDIT: acknowledging how dumb satanic panic and reefer madness is gets you downvoted here? hn really just loves to pretend to be logical and forward thinking
I don't see a problem here
EDIT: acknowledging how dumb satanic panic and reefer madness is gets you downvoted here? hn really just loves to pretend to be logical and forward thinking
The dataset feels very poor, it's just one chair, a well marketed one.
There are plenty of good ones out there. If possible, try the chairs out first to see what you feel comfortable in. I was initially going down the Herman Miller route but ended up feeling much more comfortable with a Humanscale Diffrient World chair. It has a mesh, I don't feel sore sitting in it for extended periods (yes I ought to move about, I'm an idiot) and it's cool in summers.
There are plenty of good ones out there. If possible, try the chairs out first to see what you feel comfortable in. I was initially going down the Herman Miller route but ended up feeling much more comfortable with a Humanscale Diffrient World chair. It has a mesh, I don't feel sore sitting in it for extended periods (yes I ought to move about, I'm an idiot) and it's cool in summers.
> Starts at $899 [0]
Could someone help me understand cost metrics behind building/selling a quality office chair? There's no high-tech parts, are there manufacturers in the U.S.?
Imagine a world where we can't all go try a chair on. A heavy, long-term purchase with relative high price tag, lots of room for "well that seems right,"-ism from a consumer.
Maybe chairs are scams!
[0] https://www.humanscale.com/products/seating/diffrient-world-...
Could someone help me understand cost metrics behind building/selling a quality office chair? There's no high-tech parts, are there manufacturers in the U.S.?
Imagine a world where we can't all go try a chair on. A heavy, long-term purchase with relative high price tag, lots of room for "well that seems right,"-ism from a consumer.
Maybe chairs are scams!
[0] https://www.humanscale.com/products/seating/diffrient-world-...
> Could someone help me understand cost metrics behind building/selling a quality office chair? There's no high-tech parts, are there manufacturers in the U.S.?
A seven year warranty doesn't hurt (though only 3 years for the arm rests). That's $130/year, or $11/mo. Though I'm sure it'll last longer than that.
An HM Aeron is $1400 with a 12 year warranty, which works out roughly the same annually.
Having a comfortable chair (like having a comfortable mattress or shoes) can have positive health effects—or at least having crappy items can have the opposite effect.
I had an Aeron at a job I worked at for ten years, and it was comfortable and was in as good condition on the day I left as the day I arrived at the company, so I was okay with spending that kind of money when it came time to purchase a new chair for my home computer desk because I knew it'd serve me well.
The main thing I find lacking with it is the lack of a headrest.
I sit a lot (too much probably), and so wanted something that worked well for me. Other people may have different budgets and different values/priorities.
A seven year warranty doesn't hurt (though only 3 years for the arm rests). That's $130/year, or $11/mo. Though I'm sure it'll last longer than that.
An HM Aeron is $1400 with a 12 year warranty, which works out roughly the same annually.
Having a comfortable chair (like having a comfortable mattress or shoes) can have positive health effects—or at least having crappy items can have the opposite effect.
I had an Aeron at a job I worked at for ten years, and it was comfortable and was in as good condition on the day I left as the day I arrived at the company, so I was okay with spending that kind of money when it came time to purchase a new chair for my home computer desk because I knew it'd serve me well.
The main thing I find lacking with it is the lack of a headrest.
I sit a lot (too much probably), and so wanted something that worked well for me. Other people may have different budgets and different values/priorities.
Also, I know the beauty and design and clout are somewhat valuable but... beauty is an open-source, customizable-to-your-body-via-3d-phone-scan, (3d-printed-to-order?) chair.
Like mechanical keyboards are. BYO, because it's supported with a brilliant community of hackers and makers and nerds.
I spend about the same time using both tools and both are arguably in the same category of "ergonomics are important"
Like mechanical keyboards are. BYO, because it's supported with a brilliant community of hackers and makers and nerds.
I spend about the same time using both tools and both are arguably in the same category of "ergonomics are important"
Sitting most of the day (i.e. with almost all of your muscles relaxed) is associated with dozens of diseases and early death.
Any chair that lets you relax your legs or disengages your hips is very bad for your health. Any chair that also relaxes your spine is even worse.
The author basically nails it: either pick a chair so basic you're forced to engage your hips and spine to spread the load and maintain posture, or go with an active option like a medicine ball or stand-up desk.
Any chair that lets you relax your legs or disengages your hips is very bad for your health. Any chair that also relaxes your spine is even worse.
The author basically nails it: either pick a chair so basic you're forced to engage your hips and spine to spread the load and maintain posture, or go with an active option like a medicine ball or stand-up desk.
Has the author made purchasing decisions about bulk office furniture?
Has the author even worked in a corporate office?
Has the author even worked in a corporate office?
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All those adjustments are like getting into the internals of your X configuration so you can have just the right gradients on the title bars vs window borders. Great for the few who want that (guilty!); but beyond useless to the people who want to get shit done.
Those classic wooden chair designs are not just "good defaults" for all the adjustments that could be made, but they allow room for different body shapes and the different ways people find comfortable to settle their meat sacks.
For my purposes, the optimal chair has room for one and a half of me, plus a baby goat.
Those classic wooden chair designs are not just "good defaults" for all the adjustments that could be made, but they allow room for different body shapes and the different ways people find comfortable to settle their meat sacks.
For my purposes, the optimal chair has room for one and a half of me, plus a baby goat.
As a cyclist, who sees people who apparently think the same way about their Walmart bikes with their knees up to their chins... I say that ignorance of proper setup does not mean there is no such thing as proper setup, or no reason for it.
Absolutely agreed; but how hard have you found it to help someone with their bike's adjustments? I've seen a growing trend of people not wanting the responsibility for such things; they wont futz with it, if you do its all your fault now and they expect you to own their problems.
Its the same attitude that we used to get when we fixed computers for family; but generalized.
Its the same attitude that we used to get when we fixed computers for family; but generalized.
Agree on all counts.
Author's tone immediately makes me want to disagree with them. Which might be more of a reflection on me than anything else.
All I can say is that I had a dead straight wooden chair for years and coupled with my bad lifestyle I developed pretty bad back issues (diagnosed). Upon replacing it with a fairly basic ergonomic chair (height, tilt adjust, mesh back and lumbar support), my pain levels are significantly lower. It cost me about $150 (I'm not in the US or EU so prices are obviously very different) and I'm glad to have spent it.
All I can say is that I had a dead straight wooden chair for years and coupled with my bad lifestyle I developed pretty bad back issues (diagnosed). Upon replacing it with a fairly basic ergonomic chair (height, tilt adjust, mesh back and lumbar support), my pain levels are significantly lower. It cost me about $150 (I'm not in the US or EU so prices are obviously very different) and I'm glad to have spent it.
Um, hammers are a scam, too, I think. Show me research demonstrating they have to look like that! There are two points, both missed by the author, to a good office chair.
Firstly, adjustability. The chair is not ergonomic per se, but it allows for a massive amount of adjustment so everyone can get what they need. You can get HM chairs in various sizes, by the way. Secondly, durability. I sat on an HM for 6 years or so without it showing literally any wear. I have a cheap office chair at home that looks like crap after 4.
Firstly, adjustability. The chair is not ergonomic per se, but it allows for a massive amount of adjustment so everyone can get what they need. You can get HM chairs in various sizes, by the way. Secondly, durability. I sat on an HM for 6 years or so without it showing literally any wear. I have a cheap office chair at home that looks like crap after 4.
I don't particularly find this article compelling, and all of the "meat-sack" this and "bugman" that doesn't do anything to help the author's cause.
However I did recently buy a new office chair. I went with the Autonomous Ergochair 2 because it was really highly rated from all the reviews I read about chairs, and honestly it hasn't been very comfortable. I'm working a remote job now so I really wanted a nice chair, now I'm wondering if I have to go buy a different one.
However I did recently buy a new office chair. I went with the Autonomous Ergochair 2 because it was really highly rated from all the reviews I read about chairs, and honestly it hasn't been very comfortable. I'm working a remote job now so I really wanted a nice chair, now I'm wondering if I have to go buy a different one.
The best argument in the article though is the one you seem to be missing. The chair itself matters little when it comes to your comfort in comparison to your fitness.
An uncomfortable chair is an uncomfortable chair regardless of fitness. Being fit helps prevent longterm injury from sitting in bad chairs, it doesn't make them magically comfortable.
This assumed truism is actually arguable.
I can see that some furniture is better than others, but I actually am rarely all that uncomfortable regardless of the furniture. I will sit on a hard stool or a cheap chair with compressed dead cushion or a sumptuous stuffed chair almost equally fine all day long doing something engaging. As a kid I spent all day every day on rock hard absolutely non customizable chairs, and was fine. Because I was a kid.
The argument that you are the major ingredient in the equation of your comfort, not the chair, holds up.
I can see that some furniture is better than others, but I actually am rarely all that uncomfortable regardless of the furniture. I will sit on a hard stool or a cheap chair with compressed dead cushion or a sumptuous stuffed chair almost equally fine all day long doing something engaging. As a kid I spent all day every day on rock hard absolutely non customizable chairs, and was fine. Because I was a kid.
The argument that you are the major ingredient in the equation of your comfort, not the chair, holds up.
I can only speak for myself but this is my anec-data. I was having recurrent pain in the muscles near the shoulder blades, got rid of my regular 150 $ office chair and got a Herman Miller Aeron. The pain is gone. Having the ability to configure with great precision the chair so I can sit in a proper position was critical for me.
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Spoken like someone who doesn't own an Aeron. Best chairs ever and a tax write-off in any case.
I’ve had my Aeron chair since 2006, and I still like it. I bought it used off of eBay for around $250, and it has lasted 15 years (I did replace a couple of parts, like the $5 pad under the front lip of the chair). It’s comfortable, reliable, and to the extent something fails the parts are readily available.
I also happen to own a “tub chair” which was much more expensive than the Aeron (since I bought it new). I can’t imagine using that as an office chair. You need something that you can scoot under the table while you are on it to get close to the keyboard.
I also happen to own a “tub chair” which was much more expensive than the Aeron (since I bought it new). I can’t imagine using that as an office chair. You need something that you can scoot under the table while you are on it to get close to the keyboard.
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I should be typing this from a recliner.
Maybe, but I love Aerons. I'm perpetually overheating and the mesh in the Aerons is unrivaled. They are probably too expensive, but I just love them.
TLDR: Get strong and it won't matter much what chair you use.
Sad to say he's right. I once tried to look up academic work on these issues and found essentially none. Almost all you can find is loosely disguised white papers from the manufacturers of "ergonomic" tat.
I never used or wanted an "ergonomic" keyboard but have used all sorts of keyboards over the last four+ decades, from high force mechanical to apple "butterfly" and apart from membrane keyboards they all work the same for me. I credit my late piano teacher for that.
As for chairs: the Aeron is more work than it's worth to me and I used one only because my wife bought it for me. But there's a secret that doesn't apply to everyone: in body size/shape/configuration I'm right in the middle of the bell curve (5'11", BMI of 22, etc). So stuff "out of the box" (car seats, airplane seats, computer desks, etc etc) is designed for me. This was famously a problem for military aircraft in the 40s (cockpits designed for the norm); learning from that inversely affected the choice of early astronauts (nobody too tall or too short or with arms too far out of norm simplified the UX). Also I apparently can stretch and even go get more tea without losing 'flow'.
So yes, chairs work for me but there's a lot of variation. Too bad these expensive chairs don't help.
> Herman Miller who invented the office cubicle: the second most dystopian form of office,...
The irony was that the cubicle was designed as a tool of liberation: until then all work areas, in factories and white collar work were open plan like today (just look at a 1950s movie like "The Apartment"). Finally the cubicle could give workers some modicum of privacy at a cost lower (and flexibility higher) than building lots of private offices. Sad it because a soulless dystopia and was replaced by...open plan offices.