Ask HN: What to do with a coffee plantation with about 8000 trees?
My dad left me a coffee plantation and I have no experience in this at all, nor did he. It is freshly planted so it won't reach peak production until around 2026. But I want to learn how I could go about taking care of it and eventually start selling beans. Do you have any resource I can take a look at to learn more about coffee and its production process?
336 comments
The reasonable answer here, unfortunately, is to sell it, for reasons that others in this thread have pointed it out.
The YOLO "hollywood movie"/NYT best seller answer, however, is to drop everything you're doing, go to Madagascar, spend some time trying and failing (with hijinx!) to grow the crop yourself. Your neighbors at first are distant and doubtful, but slowly you gain their respect. 15 years from today, tsingy brand coffee is a household name.
The YOLO "hollywood movie"/NYT best seller answer, however, is to drop everything you're doing, go to Madagascar, spend some time trying and failing (with hijinx!) to grow the crop yourself. Your neighbors at first are distant and doubtful, but slowly you gain their respect. 15 years from today, tsingy brand coffee is a household name.
I mostly agree. The way I would face this decision is like this:
1) Do I enjoy the coffee business? Would I have bought that plantation if the opportunity had arisen? If the answer is no, selling is most likely the right answer.
2) That being said, it's not like the plantation is a hot potato that needs to be sold right away. OP has some time to check it out, learn about the business and decide if this is something worth trying for a few years. How long to try for? What's the opportunity cost? They would decide to invest a limited amount of time (e.g. one year of work) and then reevaluate at the end. I would timebox this decision process too. Perhaps learn all you can in a month and decide if you want to give it a shot? Part of this process should involve getting in touch with people in the industry and seeing if you like interacting with them. In the end, most of your job will be about interacting with the different types of players in your industry.
1) Do I enjoy the coffee business? Would I have bought that plantation if the opportunity had arisen? If the answer is no, selling is most likely the right answer.
2) That being said, it's not like the plantation is a hot potato that needs to be sold right away. OP has some time to check it out, learn about the business and decide if this is something worth trying for a few years. How long to try for? What's the opportunity cost? They would decide to invest a limited amount of time (e.g. one year of work) and then reevaluate at the end. I would timebox this decision process too. Perhaps learn all you can in a month and decide if you want to give it a shot? Part of this process should involve getting in touch with people in the industry and seeing if you like interacting with them. In the end, most of your job will be about interacting with the different types of players in your industry.
Plus you meet your soulmate who is living monk-like because they are still devastated from the mother/father of their children passing away suddenly four years ago. Finally their kids tell them it's time to move on and you get married six months later.
Amongst the neighbors is an attractive woman who hates OP's guts at first, then mellows, and finally falls in love. They both go against a major coffee brand that is abusive to locals and they manage, with the help of folksy villagers throwing spanners in the works of BIGCoffee, to overcome and overtake with jolly good ol' values.
You can always try to pitch it as some reality show to Netflix et al, I know of someone in similar circumstances that managed to get something produced although on a regional level in Europe.
pretty great idea, I'd watch "Tech To Brew" :)
the money made from letting a Netflix crew follow you around would probably help through bad seasons
the money made from letting a Netflix crew follow you around would probably help through bad seasons
Is there only two options? How about hiring someone who knows how to do it, or leasing it?
As you're in Madagascar you might want to get in touch with CRS[1] who have a training program for coffee growers. A relative worked with them on another project in Tana a few years ago and found them good to work with.
[1] https://coffeelands.crs.org/2021/04/agroforestry-and-coffee-...
[1] https://coffeelands.crs.org/2021/04/agroforestry-and-coffee-...
Yes I am, nice guess. Thanks a lot, will take a look into it.
I don't know anything about your land or crop, but farming tends to be a regional activity so you probably have neighbors in the same business who know at least how the job is usually done. You need knowledge from them. How that shapes up, I dunno. Maybe you want to hire one of them to run your operations; maybe you want to lease it and watch what they do; maybe you want to work for them for a year or two to learn; maybe they'll just tell you what to do each month if you just stop by and chat.
I stand to inherit a farm (of a very different sort: dry plains, mostly growing wheat) and I plan to do the same thing my father does now: lease it to a local.
I stand to inherit a farm (of a very different sort: dry plains, mostly growing wheat) and I plan to do the same thing my father does now: lease it to a local.
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Read The Coffee Exporter's Guide: Third Edition https://www.un-ilibrary.org/content/books/9789213614860 Its free and will give you a good overview of the industry.
If you want to get into farming get Wintgen's Coffee - Growing, Processing, Sustainable Production: A Guidebook for Growers, Processors, Traders and Researchers, 2nd, Revised Edition https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Coffee+Growing%2C+Processing%2C+... (You will get a way cheaper from other sources).
Depending on the country you have different options. You can think about leasing it to other farmers or a cooperative. Talk to a local Specialty Coffee Roastery for a different perspective.
If you are interested in more information I could make a follow up post
If you want to get into farming get Wintgen's Coffee - Growing, Processing, Sustainable Production: A Guidebook for Growers, Processors, Traders and Researchers, 2nd, Revised Edition https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Coffee+Growing%2C+Processing%2C+... (You will get a way cheaper from other sources).
Depending on the country you have different options. You can think about leasing it to other farmers or a cooperative. Talk to a local Specialty Coffee Roastery for a different perspective.
If you are interested in more information I could make a follow up post
Hey, thanks a lot.
Just dump any information you can, I know nothing about this so any bit of info is good. Leasing is not really an option because finding someone who will lease would be hard, we don't do that here.
Just dump any information you can, I know nothing about this so any bit of info is good. Leasing is not really an option because finding someone who will lease would be hard, we don't do that here.
Omwani coffee in the UK has recently released a Madagascar origin specialty coffee, and they claim to be trying to work with local producers, it might be worth reaching out to them. You might also want to reach out to other boutique coffee producers, many of them have farmer education programs (counter culture and square mile are the first two that come to mind).
Meta-advice, find people who actually understand the business and get their opinions. This forum is great for CS startups, but it’s full of people who think their success in one field means they are experts in everything they’ve read an article about. Be skeptical.
Meta-advice, find people who actually understand the business and get their opinions. This forum is great for CS startups, but it’s full of people who think their success in one field means they are experts in everything they’ve read an article about. Be skeptical.
I used to work on a coffee plantation of about 1000 trees in Kona. The owners ran a very lean operation. Coffee doesn’t require much maintenance outside of picking season. They had one farm manager and a handful of WWOOFers (work trade volunteers) to help with keep up with farm work and mowing. During picking season they would hire pickers from Ecuador and the Philippines to come pick the cherries. There was a co-op that weighed and processed the raw cherries on the island. The co-op also handled warehousing. They would sell raw beans to a bigger fish for roasting and shipping. Three employees total and they did quite well. Kona is out of the ordinary though. It is well regarded and fetches a decent price wholesale.
Price is a huge thing. With that many trees they must have been doing only 2klbs of coffee a year on the high end (green). I don't see how they could have been doing "quite well" as green Kona beans sell for like $40-60/lb (a lot considering most green coffee is like $8 or so a pound).
My grandfather took a trip west in 1945 after the war, leaving his wife and kids in Baltimore. He somehow ended up in what's now Rancho Mirage, talking to someone who was selling land. He'd saved up about $10k and sank all of it into a 10-acre grapefruit and date farm, basically a patch of desert with some palm and citrus trees and well water. Took my grandma and dad and aunt out there and they lived in an airstream trailer on the land. Sold the fruit to Dole mostly for juice. Barely made ends meet. When he died in the 90s, the patch sold for over $1m to a hotel conglomerate. So if nothing else... my family has a mantra: Never sell real estate.
For your specific situation, my grandfather had a different saying: "Find yourself a teacher". He claimed this philosophy came from the Talmud, but I can't say. In any event, my grandfather had already gone from being a door-to-door cloth salesman to a cutter to a tailor, and he always found an expert teacher to attach himself to and learn from, and this usually meant someone humbly but seriously devoted to the work at hand. In the case of the ranch, it was a Cahuilla Indian man who had lived nearby, and who taught him how to take care of the trees. My grandfather employed him as a full-time caretaker and kept up his house on the land for the rest of his life.
My advice with anything where you don't have the knowledge to do it yourself would be to find yourself a teacher by searching in the humblest of places for someone with that knowledge, and make them your mentor.
For your specific situation, my grandfather had a different saying: "Find yourself a teacher". He claimed this philosophy came from the Talmud, but I can't say. In any event, my grandfather had already gone from being a door-to-door cloth salesman to a cutter to a tailor, and he always found an expert teacher to attach himself to and learn from, and this usually meant someone humbly but seriously devoted to the work at hand. In the case of the ranch, it was a Cahuilla Indian man who had lived nearby, and who taught him how to take care of the trees. My grandfather employed him as a full-time caretaker and kept up his house on the land for the rest of his life.
My advice with anything where you don't have the knowledge to do it yourself would be to find yourself a teacher by searching in the humblest of places for someone with that knowledge, and make them your mentor.
I happily hire anyone that is that knowledgeable, but where I live that is rare, and they are probably running their own stuff. I wholly agree with you though, I won't venture into this alone or without a general view of how things work.
>Never sell real estate.
If he would have invested that $10,000 in the S&P 500 and reinvested the dividends, it would have been worth more than $2 million by the 90s.
https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/
If he would have invested that $10,000 in the S&P 500 and reinvested the dividends, it would have been worth more than $2 million by the 90s.
https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/
> So if nothing else... my family has a mantra: Never sell real estate
"Warren Buffett: $10,000 invested in an index fund when I bought my first stock in 1942 would be worth $51 million today"
Looks like he could have done 51 times better for no work
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/07/warren-buffett-10000-investe...
"Warren Buffett: $10,000 invested in an index fund when I bought my first stock in 1942 would be worth $51 million today"
Looks like he could have done 51 times better for no work
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/07/warren-buffett-10000-investe...
True, but if you can imagine someone even more conservative - my grandfather (and father) had a lot of respect for Buffett but considered him to be a reckless gambler.
I once sold 1000 BTC for about $10k, for reasons largely similar to the ones that kept my grandfather from entering the stock market. I think putting $10k into an index fund probably seemed just as insane to most people in 1942 as keeping $10k in Bitcoin seemed to me in 2012.
In addition to having run a casino, I'm a reformed gambling addict (as long as you don't leave me alone in Vegas for too long). Part of overcoming gambling addiction and its manifestations in everyday behaviour is that I don't second-guess decisions I make out of being too conservative or, in other words, feel regret for pocketing my gains and walking away. That way lies ruin. And also, as a gambler, I'm an optimist, so I don't think I missed my one-and-only chance to make 50x my money. There's always another spin right around the corner.
I once sold 1000 BTC for about $10k, for reasons largely similar to the ones that kept my grandfather from entering the stock market. I think putting $10k into an index fund probably seemed just as insane to most people in 1942 as keeping $10k in Bitcoin seemed to me in 2012.
In addition to having run a casino, I'm a reformed gambling addict (as long as you don't leave me alone in Vegas for too long). Part of overcoming gambling addiction and its manifestations in everyday behaviour is that I don't second-guess decisions I make out of being too conservative or, in other words, feel regret for pocketing my gains and walking away. That way lies ruin. And also, as a gambler, I'm an optimist, so I don't think I missed my one-and-only chance to make 50x my money. There's always another spin right around the corner.
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Let's be realistic here, your only option is to sell it.
Recap the facts:
Recap the facts:
- You've confirmed you have no experience ("I have no experience in this at all")
- You've confirmed your dad had no experience ("nor did he") ... so how do you know it's "good" land, or you dad did a good job until now ? Are you sure there are no "skeletons in the cupboard" ?
- You haven't got long ("around 2026"), we're entering 2023 now, 3 years will fly by. You have no experience, you have no coffee bean buyers lined up (in what is a very competitive market).
- Remember you are also taking on MORE financial risk by continuing because you will doubtless be required to incur CAPEX and OPEX expenses. So not only could it become a mental headache for you, but it could easily become a financial blackhole too.
I will keep it at least until the first harvest is sold or whatever happens. If you prevent yourself from doing anything because you don't experience in it, you won't ever do anything. It costs me around 3000 euros a year to run.
No need to be so discouraging. Is it likely to be a lucrative business? Probably not. Is it likely to be even profitable? Probably not. But if OP wants to learn, why suggest their only option is to sell it? We don't tell our kids to give up programming because they have no idea how much pain dealing with javascript is.
> No need to be so discouraging
I'm not being discouraging, I am being realistic.
I am looking at the situation from someone who has no ties to the situation. Taking the completely objective view with no bias.
I am looking at the situation who has been involved in small businesses, I know how tough running a small business is .... running a small farming business with zero experience will be sheer hell, frankly.
If they had a couple of decades to learn, that might be one thing... but they have stated they have three years (2023 – 2026). The hard reality is that you are not going to become a farming wizard in three years. You are taking on a lot of stress and a lot of financial risk. 21st century farming is a tough business with tight margins and near-zero tolerance for mistakes.
I'm not being discouraging, I am being realistic.
I am looking at the situation from someone who has no ties to the situation. Taking the completely objective view with no bias.
I am looking at the situation who has been involved in small businesses, I know how tough running a small business is .... running a small farming business with zero experience will be sheer hell, frankly.
If they had a couple of decades to learn, that might be one thing... but they have stated they have three years (2023 – 2026). The hard reality is that you are not going to become a farming wizard in three years. You are taking on a lot of stress and a lot of financial risk. 21st century farming is a tough business with tight margins and near-zero tolerance for mistakes.
I think the move you're missing is getting in on the ground floor with a solid ownership share to an experienced coffee grower. A 51/49 ownership split or a similar arrangement could be a life-changing opportunity for an experienced farmhand or manager. (Of course OP will not be able to tell the sharks from the real helpers and this would still be a gamble unlikely to pay off--it just could also be an incredible life experience that assists in later success.)
I would say that if OP has a family and isn't already loaded, sell outright, but if they're younger and willing to go through hell they definitely should try to be involved in growing coffee beans.
I would say that if OP has a family and isn't already loaded, sell outright, but if they're younger and willing to go through hell they definitely should try to be involved in growing coffee beans.
> I would say that if OP has a family and isn't already loaded, sell outright, but if they're younger and willing to go through hell they definitely should try to be involved in growing coffee beans.
I'm loaded in my poor country, different story than when I was abroad. COL here is low like really low.
I'm loaded in my poor country, different story than when I was abroad. COL here is low like really low.
If you don't have a spouse I would take a run at it. I would definitely get a really good lawyer, though.
Yes, or you get screwed out of your share in some tricky way. If you do not have experience in the market how do you know if you're getting cleaned out?
You don't. In cases like OP you can choose to make a gamble. If you don't have a family to support there's no real reason to not take big unlikely payoff risks in order to try and make crazy outcomes happen. The only caveat would be if by trying to become a farmer you'd be exposed to organized violence, but I'm not sure what that's like in Madagascar.
OP has zero years, not three, because the choices they make today (and their father already made) will have a huge impact on the quantity and quality of the future crop.
But at this moment they can be fixed when time investment is low
> I'm not being discouraging, I am being realistic
Hardly, you don’t know anything about how difficult it is to do what they’re trying to do. For all you know it’s a crop that essentially grows itself and has a huge market demand so selling is easy. Your experience in unrelated small businesses in another country has very little bearing.
Hardly, you don’t know anything about how difficult it is to do what they’re trying to do. For all you know it’s a crop that essentially grows itself and has a huge market demand so selling is easy. Your experience in unrelated small businesses in another country has very little bearing.
> it’s a crop that essentially grows itself and has a huge market demand so selling is easy.
I'm sorry but you're hilarious.
There is no such thing as "grows itself" and there is no such thing as "easy selling".
Many years of experience can make growing LOOK easy.
Many years of experience and contacts can make selling LOOK easy.
But the reality is it isn't.
I mean, look at programming.
Anybody can learn to program. Anybody can use boilerplate code and WYSIWIG editors to make code that "essentially writes itself".
There is also "huge market demand" for programming.
But the reality is people, especially the good paying people, want experienced programmers, not noobs.
An experienced programmer can make programming LOOK easy. An experienced programmer can have a book of high-paying clients. But that is due to the experience.
I'm sorry but you're hilarious.
There is no such thing as "grows itself" and there is no such thing as "easy selling".
Many years of experience can make growing LOOK easy.
Many years of experience and contacts can make selling LOOK easy.
But the reality is it isn't.
I mean, look at programming.
Anybody can learn to program. Anybody can use boilerplate code and WYSIWIG editors to make code that "essentially writes itself".
There is also "huge market demand" for programming.
But the reality is people, especially the good paying people, want experienced programmers, not noobs.
An experienced programmer can make programming LOOK easy. An experienced programmer can have a book of high-paying clients. But that is due to the experience.
Don’t cherry pick words to change the meaning of people’s sentences, it makes you seem disingenuous.
Edit: see also the top-level comment from the former actual coffee farmer who said that there’s not that much to do outside the harvesting season. This goes to my actual point, which is that your experience in a totally different field doesn’t translate. Now that’s hilarious.
Edit: see also the top-level comment from the former actual coffee farmer who said that there’s not that much to do outside the harvesting season. This goes to my actual point, which is that your experience in a totally different field doesn’t translate. Now that’s hilarious.
You're potentially setting the bar very high, though. Sure, experienced programmers can command very high rates. But even mediocre programmers can make a good living.
The same could very well hold for a coffee plantation. I've seen something like it with an orange/nispero/avocado orchard. Yes, it's easy to make mistakes and it's not easy to get rich. But break-even is quite possibly not that hard to achieve.
As another poster mentioned, these things are very regional. In the orange orchard case, there happens to be a cooperative in almost every larger village in the whole region. You can easily source everything you need there and you can sell your produce wholesale. Both at fair rates, since the neighbors also go there and they pay/get the same. And there's plenty of neighbors who will be willing to help out (although you might also find those who want you to fail to buy your land). And for the day-to-day you can make use of the experience of day labourers that you can pretty much always find in these areas.
The same could very well hold for a coffee plantation. I've seen something like it with an orange/nispero/avocado orchard. Yes, it's easy to make mistakes and it's not easy to get rich. But break-even is quite possibly not that hard to achieve.
As another poster mentioned, these things are very regional. In the orange orchard case, there happens to be a cooperative in almost every larger village in the whole region. You can easily source everything you need there and you can sell your produce wholesale. Both at fair rates, since the neighbors also go there and they pay/get the same. And there's plenty of neighbors who will be willing to help out (although you might also find those who want you to fail to buy your land). And for the day-to-day you can make use of the experience of day labourers that you can pretty much always find in these areas.
Honestly I don't buy your argument. In the US you can take your crop to the nearest grain elevator and sell it by the truckload. If there's a way to unload your coffee in Madagascar the same way, one only needs to learn how to tend the farm.
Without any experience in coffee farming, I can't say if that's as easy as shaking the tree under a barrow or what.
I really don't see how you could know any more than that.
Yes running a business can be hard, but not necessarily.
Without any experience in coffee farming, I can't say if that's as easy as shaking the tree under a barrow or what.
I really don't see how you could know any more than that.
Yes running a business can be hard, but not necessarily.
Friends bought a relatively large olive plantation. They had a ton of savings, moved from NL to Portugal and went 'all in' It took them more than a decade before they really got the hang of it. By then their savings had depleted and they had no other option than to flee forward and really make it a success. It worked, barely. There is no such thing as a 'crop that essentially grows itself'. It may seem like that to people that visit supermarkets rather than farmhouses, toolsheds and plantations. Any kind of cash crop will require money invested upfront (land, plants, this part seems to be covered), money until maturation (irrigation, fencing, possibly pruning depending on the crop), money to harvest. And if you're lucky they pay-off from the harvest covers all those other costs, or hopefully at least a substantial fraction. And if it doesn't there's always chapter 11...
When you're used to the kind of income that software can generate farming anything seems like very hard work, even when it works well.
When you're used to the kind of income that software can generate farming anything seems like very hard work, even when it works well.
All that proves is that farming olives in Portugal is hard. Is farming coffee analogous to farming coffee? According to the actual former coffee grower in this thread, no. Is selling green coffee in Madagascar hard? None of us knows.
> When you're used to the kind of income that software can generate farming anything seems like very hard work, even when it works well.
Even if that’s true, so what? They didn’t ask, is this a better path to getting rich than working at a FAANG. They asked if anyone knew how to do it. The only correct answer for the people in this thread would be “nope, no idea”. Thus my point that they’re not being “realistic”, they’re just well-actuallying someone without having any relevant knowledge.
Seek to understand, don’t just be a wet-blanket.
> When you're used to the kind of income that software can generate farming anything seems like very hard work, even when it works well.
Even if that’s true, so what? They didn’t ask, is this a better path to getting rich than working at a FAANG. They asked if anyone knew how to do it. The only correct answer for the people in this thread would be “nope, no idea”. Thus my point that they’re not being “realistic”, they’re just well-actuallying someone without having any relevant knowledge.
Seek to understand, don’t just be a wet-blanket.
> Seek to understand, don’t just be a wet-blanket.
Stick to what you know, or get burned.
Stick to what you know, or get burned.
> We don't tell our kids to give up programming because they have no idea how much pain dealing with javascript is.
Learning to program is low risk, high reward. The absolute worst thing that can come from failing is the hard drive space used by VSCode and the lost evenings you were going to waste on Minecraft anyway. Meanwhile, the reward is a lucrative software engineering job or at least the ability to make neat stuff. No reason not to give it a try; if you like it, you gained a new skill. If you dislike it, you find some other hobby. A maximum of $0 will be spent. Maybe $20 if you buy a book or something.
The same is not true of an industrial coffee farm. Property tax bills will come due. Employees have to be hired and then fired when you fail. Specialized machinery needs to be purchased and will be useless when you give up.
If you've got a few million dollars in your bank account that's burning a hole in your pocket, then I suppose "learn the coffee trade by buying a full-scale manor" is something you could do. If you don't, then cash out now and use the money to build a business you'll actually succeed in. If you just want to learn how to grow and roast coffee, plant a coffee tree in your backyard. When you get bored and it dies, pay someone $200 to remove it.
I definitely get these ideas in my head all the time. I was watching some video about a box factory and was like I should own a box factory. You get a cool industrial loft, and there are machines in there, and guys with trucks come to pick up your boxes. Easy money easy life!! The I realize the video is a safety investigation video and the box factory blew up and killed everyone in the neighborhood because water coming into the plant had too much oxygen in it and am like; wait I don't know anything about any of this stuff. I will stick to programming for the time being.
Learning to program is low risk, high reward. The absolute worst thing that can come from failing is the hard drive space used by VSCode and the lost evenings you were going to waste on Minecraft anyway. Meanwhile, the reward is a lucrative software engineering job or at least the ability to make neat stuff. No reason not to give it a try; if you like it, you gained a new skill. If you dislike it, you find some other hobby. A maximum of $0 will be spent. Maybe $20 if you buy a book or something.
The same is not true of an industrial coffee farm. Property tax bills will come due. Employees have to be hired and then fired when you fail. Specialized machinery needs to be purchased and will be useless when you give up.
If you've got a few million dollars in your bank account that's burning a hole in your pocket, then I suppose "learn the coffee trade by buying a full-scale manor" is something you could do. If you don't, then cash out now and use the money to build a business you'll actually succeed in. If you just want to learn how to grow and roast coffee, plant a coffee tree in your backyard. When you get bored and it dies, pay someone $200 to remove it.
I definitely get these ideas in my head all the time. I was watching some video about a box factory and was like I should own a box factory. You get a cool industrial loft, and there are machines in there, and guys with trucks come to pick up your boxes. Easy money easy life!! The I realize the video is a safety investigation video and the box factory blew up and killed everyone in the neighborhood because water coming into the plant had too much oxygen in it and am like; wait I don't know anything about any of this stuff. I will stick to programming for the time being.
I assume the people who randomly inherit coffee plantations actually are the people with money to spare to learn the trade. To that end, I'd say that the OP should go to the area, find profitable plantations and try to get sit downs with owners and operators. Learn what you can, try and hire the best operator you can, or someone they recommend. Profit share with the operator and let him run it while you stay out of the way and/or learn the ropes from him - possibly by doing shifts in all of the roles.
One thing you guys don't realize is that it's in Madagascar, it cost me 3000 euros per year to run, not millions.
It's discouraging. It's encouraging. Encouraging to sell, because that decision makes by far the most sense. If I inherited a business that I have no experience in and that I would not have started by myself I wouldn't even bother with an 'Ask HN', I would have been on the phone to someone who brokers coffee plantations. Besides that, I don't drink coffee so I wouldn't even know if my product is any good.
I’m a home roaster and buy my green beans from a website called www.sweetmarias.com. Everything about this company is awesome but there’s guy there named Tom who knows probably as much as anyone could know about the entire coffee process from growing to wholesaling to roasting. He always travels to farms to meets with growers before purchasing. I guarantee if you get a hold of their customer service and explain your situation, you’ll be able to get a hold of someone there who can give you answers to most of your coffee-related questions.
Thanks a lot, I will reach out to them.
Second the book recommendation below and can highlight one thing about having spent time on plantations myself: do NOT cut the trees. There will be folks who will tell you that by cutting the trees you will get more sunlight and hence more coffee production. I've seen first hand how hundreds of farmers (mainly in India) cut all the trees on their coffee plantation and a few years later lost most of their land due to water issues and landslides. Depending on where in the world you are, you also want to understand what companion plants (could be macadamia nut trees, banana plants, etc.) are best suited for your coffee plants.
I would not try to compete with low-quality bean production. Not sure how much land you have but you most likely don't have the resources to compete at scale. There is, however, a massive specialty coffee market and people are willing to pay good money for good coffee. So besides my recommendations above, try to find some specialty coffee producers in your region and learn from them.
I would not try to compete with low-quality bean production. Not sure how much land you have but you most likely don't have the resources to compete at scale. There is, however, a massive specialty coffee market and people are willing to pay good money for good coffee. So besides my recommendations above, try to find some specialty coffee producers in your region and learn from them.
Most of my family are farmers. It's crazy hard work, requiring a massive amount of effort and know-how. Most of my farming relatives are better educated than me from a pure academic perspective.
Making a success of a commercial farm requires deep knowledge of the crop, the land, the weather and the local pests. Gone are the days of doing things the way your forefathers did things. Moreso if you actually want to be competitive in the market that you are producing for.
Please dont make the romantic mistake of thinking you will become this farmer and it's all sunshine and success. One bad crop (which could be because of no fault of your own) can mean financial ruin.
My advice: rub shoulders with the locals in the area. Maybe theres a farmer interested in renting your land and trees. Alternatively, appoint an expert to manage and run the farm for you.
Theres a certain romanticism associated whith owning land you inherited. But you have to be honest with yourself and look at the numbers. If it's not your expertise and the financials don't make sense you'll probably be better off selling the land.
My dad and I had exactly this conversation recently. He has some land that he got from his father, that he's renting out to the farming relatives. My dad's at the age now where he needs to plan for what happens to his estate. We looked at the numbers and relaized me and my brother will be better off selling and taking the money. In my country you are liable to pay hefty taxes on inheritance. Neither of us have the reserves to pay those taxes on a piece of land we have no idea how to run or manage. You inherit an asset that you are forced to liquidate in order to afford the inheritance taxes on that asset.
Making a success of a commercial farm requires deep knowledge of the crop, the land, the weather and the local pests. Gone are the days of doing things the way your forefathers did things. Moreso if you actually want to be competitive in the market that you are producing for.
Please dont make the romantic mistake of thinking you will become this farmer and it's all sunshine and success. One bad crop (which could be because of no fault of your own) can mean financial ruin.
My advice: rub shoulders with the locals in the area. Maybe theres a farmer interested in renting your land and trees. Alternatively, appoint an expert to manage and run the farm for you.
Theres a certain romanticism associated whith owning land you inherited. But you have to be honest with yourself and look at the numbers. If it's not your expertise and the financials don't make sense you'll probably be better off selling the land.
My dad and I had exactly this conversation recently. He has some land that he got from his father, that he's renting out to the farming relatives. My dad's at the age now where he needs to plan for what happens to his estate. We looked at the numbers and relaized me and my brother will be better off selling and taking the money. In my country you are liable to pay hefty taxes on inheritance. Neither of us have the reserves to pay those taxes on a piece of land we have no idea how to run or manage. You inherit an asset that you are forced to liquidate in order to afford the inheritance taxes on that asset.
I will agree with parent comment and add a personal anecdote that perhaps provides some models for you to consider.
I am a farm boy. There was one night many decades ago where I said to myself: "You can either wrap your head around DiffEQ, pass the course, and graduate with an engineering degree, or go home and clean hog barns for the rest of your life." I chose option A. While this makes a good story, it is also the literal truth. The point being, I grew up in farming and understand it, but have little desire to manage a farm myself. Same goes for my wife.
Eventually with the passage of time, we inherited farm land. Our path has been to rent the land to farmer operators that we have good relationships with, and manage the leasing ourselves. If course, with the advice of an attorney and an accountant that are both local to the area where the farms are and who do a lot of farm-related practice. We feel we understand farming well enough to engage with farmer-operators and negotiate fair rents, get soil-conservation terms in our lease agreements that we desire, negotiate capital improvement projects that are mutually beneficial (some of our farm land had drainage tile installed a few years back, for example.)
If you go this path, you will want local legal and accounting advice. You should also understand enough of the "big picture" items like the ebb-and-flow of the pricing of the commodity in question, how that impacts rents, the rent models used with operators for that particular commodity, and any farming practices that you with to enforce, such as soil and water conservation, appropriate use of pesticides and herbicides, who gets the rent from pollinators if that applies, etc.
Option 2 is farm management companies. My farm land is in Iowa and Minnesota, so hardly coffee country. It is corn (maize) and soy bean country. There is a corn-belt farm management company called Hertz farm management that is one of the large, reputable farm management companies that many people in our situation use. You might be able to find an equivalent firm. This is a good option if you want something more turn-key, and don't feel that you have sufficient expertise be a landlord-with-a-clue.
I am a farm boy. There was one night many decades ago where I said to myself: "You can either wrap your head around DiffEQ, pass the course, and graduate with an engineering degree, or go home and clean hog barns for the rest of your life." I chose option A. While this makes a good story, it is also the literal truth. The point being, I grew up in farming and understand it, but have little desire to manage a farm myself. Same goes for my wife.
Eventually with the passage of time, we inherited farm land. Our path has been to rent the land to farmer operators that we have good relationships with, and manage the leasing ourselves. If course, with the advice of an attorney and an accountant that are both local to the area where the farms are and who do a lot of farm-related practice. We feel we understand farming well enough to engage with farmer-operators and negotiate fair rents, get soil-conservation terms in our lease agreements that we desire, negotiate capital improvement projects that are mutually beneficial (some of our farm land had drainage tile installed a few years back, for example.)
If you go this path, you will want local legal and accounting advice. You should also understand enough of the "big picture" items like the ebb-and-flow of the pricing of the commodity in question, how that impacts rents, the rent models used with operators for that particular commodity, and any farming practices that you with to enforce, such as soil and water conservation, appropriate use of pesticides and herbicides, who gets the rent from pollinators if that applies, etc.
Option 2 is farm management companies. My farm land is in Iowa and Minnesota, so hardly coffee country. It is corn (maize) and soy bean country. There is a corn-belt farm management company called Hertz farm management that is one of the large, reputable farm management companies that many people in our situation use. You might be able to find an equivalent firm. This is a good option if you want something more turn-key, and don't feel that you have sufficient expertise be a landlord-with-a-clue.
Your answer and the parent's are both awesome. Thanks to both of you.
Your note about local services is super important. Local lawyers, accountants, banks and suppliers. People who understand the land, the crop, the challenges and all that. In my locality we have hyper local banks that only specialize in loans for local farmers. They understand the market, their clients and the associated risks.
300km in any direction is far enough that the rules are different.
300km in any direction is far enough that the rules are different.
> You inherit an asset that you are forced to liquidate in order to afford the inheritance taxes on that asset.
It is worth speaking with an estate lawyer or accountant. There are strategies to avoid this that differ based on country, but insurance usually plays a role. It is, in my opinion, unfair that someone would be forced by taxes to sell the birthright that their parent spent a lifetime working for. Good luck.
It is worth speaking with an estate lawyer or accountant. There are strategies to avoid this that differ based on country, but insurance usually plays a role. It is, in my opinion, unfair that someone would be forced by taxes to sell the birthright that their parent spent a lifetime working for. Good luck.
And to others birthright and fairness in one sentence looks really strange ;)
“Birthright” is this concept that can easily be accepted without question as cosmically inherent. But when you examine it, it doesn’t really make any sense at all. It’s a great way to perpetuate inequality, especially wholly unearned inequality.
I’m not sure why the idea of perpetuating inequality “doesn’t make sense”. For most of human history that’s literally what civilization has been about: building on the efforts of your ancestors to be better than your neighbors, other tribes, and eventually other empire who would rather see you fail.
Note I am not arguing that inequality is an unvarnished good or that history isn’t filled with violence and sin. However, that’s a far cry from saying simply that “birthright” doesn’t make sense at least when talking about purely physical items to be inherited.
Note I am not arguing that inequality is an unvarnished good or that history isn’t filled with violence and sin. However, that’s a far cry from saying simply that “birthright” doesn’t make sense at least when talking about purely physical items to be inherited.
> However, that’s a far cry from saying simply that “birthright” doesn’t make sense at least when talking about purely physical items to be inherited.
Land in particular is a special case because more cannot be created (without absolutely massive capital projects and those require some special thinking, but they are outliers).
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-progr...
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-is-...
Land in particular is a special case because more cannot be created (without absolutely massive capital projects and those require some special thinking, but they are outliers).
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/your-book-review-progr...
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/does-georgism-work-is-...
I will agree that land is a special case, but that’s why we tax it continually.
I think society needs property tax to perform well, or else people will horde control of land under the mistaken belief that they can sell or rent it for high prices. You need tax to bring people back to reality and force them to use it productively in the present.
I think society needs property tax to perform well, or else people will horde control of land under the mistaken belief that they can sell or rent it for high prices. You need tax to bring people back to reality and force them to use it productively in the present.
In the context of one society where some forms of wealth is claimed as "birthright" and thus perpetuating inequality is what does not make sense to me... meaning it is not fair.
There are multiple forms of birthright, too. The one we're used to is the right of aggregation -- I had one, inherited another, and now I have two.
Another form is the right of selection -- I have one, here's another one that just become unowned, and I get dibs on choosing that over my own. If I retain my own, the other lapses to the public. If I choose the other, mine does.
Another form is the right of selection -- I have one, here's another one that just become unowned, and I get dibs on choosing that over my own. If I retain my own, the other lapses to the public. If I choose the other, mine does.
One could argue that it's "cosmically inherent" that something you earn through your own labor (of the body that you control/own?) should be yours do with as you please, so long as it doesn't hurt others. If you can't accept that fundamental property, we are quite frankly serfs, which is a few steps away from slaves. Slaves not only didn't own their own body, but they also didn't own the fruits of their labor.
> One could argue that it's "cosmically inherent" that something you earn through your own labor (of the body that you control/own?) should be yours do with as you please, so long as it doesn't hurt others.
Why is it only “cosmically inherent” as long as you don’t hurt others? Has the tiger no cosmically inherent right to his meal? The truth is he doesn’t, he must defend his kill if necessary.
The truth is you must defend what you’ve earned as well, either by force or through mutual agreement (society).
We, as a society, have agreed to grant each other exclusive rights to what we’ve earned. Of course that hasn’t always been the case throughout history. Don’t bring the cosmos into it, it happens through mutual consent, because we choose to.
Your rights are man-made, don’t take them for granted. They only exist so long as everyone agrees they do.
Why is it only “cosmically inherent” as long as you don’t hurt others? Has the tiger no cosmically inherent right to his meal? The truth is he doesn’t, he must defend his kill if necessary.
The truth is you must defend what you’ve earned as well, either by force or through mutual agreement (society).
We, as a society, have agreed to grant each other exclusive rights to what we’ve earned. Of course that hasn’t always been the case throughout history. Don’t bring the cosmos into it, it happens through mutual consent, because we choose to.
Your rights are man-made, don’t take them for granted. They only exist so long as everyone agrees they do.
You can balance the real dual-interests at play here through progressive taxation, allowing for transfers of wealth that only marginally accelerate society-wide wealth disparity. The slaves/serfs lingo is a little stretched when it applies necessarily to other people, and those other people have had their entire lives to benefit from the wealth of the other person anyways.
> But when you examine it, it doesn’t really make any sense at all. It’s a great way to perpetuate inequality, especially wholly unearned inequality.
This paragraph doesn’t make any sense at all either.
The reason is that there is no meaning whatsoever to the concept of earned inequality, and therefore no meaning to the idea of ‘unearned’ inequality.
This paragraph doesn’t make any sense at all either.
The reason is that there is no meaning whatsoever to the concept of earned inequality, and therefore no meaning to the idea of ‘unearned’ inequality.
Are you saying it’s unfair to inherit something?
My situation is unique, and when I inherit it’s moral and just - my parents worked so hard, we earned this, it’s unfair to have so much tax.
When others inherit, society needs to take their wealth and redistribute it. Their situation is not like mine. These millionaires and billionaires got lucky and their kids don’t deserve to be rich for no reason.
When others inherit, society needs to take their wealth and redistribute it. Their situation is not like mine. These millionaires and billionaires got lucky and their kids don’t deserve to be rich for no reason.
Hard to tell if this is sarcasm.
Is it hard?
It's always hard, which is why sarcasm just isn't a good fit for text-only forums like HN. Too many of the cues that reveal sarcasm as sarcasm are lost.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
Of course it's unfair. It's the definition of unequal opportunity.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's immoral or should be illegal, but how could you argue that it's fair that some people get free money while others don't by the luck of their birth?
That doesn't necessarily mean it's immoral or should be illegal, but how could you argue that it's fair that some people get free money while others don't by the luck of their birth?
I work really hard so that I can give things to my children. They’re mine to give.
So did my parents. I'm going to be a father any day now, and you can be sure I'll do the same.
I don't see how it's "fair" that I was born to hardworking, financially responsible parents, while most others were less lucky though.
I don't see how it's "fair" that I was born to hardworking, financially responsible parents, while most others were less lucky though.
The same way it's fair when two people each buy a raffle ticket and one of them wins while the other doesn't?
That's not the same. Everyone can buy a raffle ticket, you can't randomly re-select your parents.
I don't get it, everyone can be born. Are you saying that it's the possibility of iteration that makes it fair? So if the raffle enforced one ticket per person it is no longer fair?
No, everyone is born, there is no choice about it. I can choose to partake in a raffle.
A forced raffle where everyone has to join is unfair, yes. That's why we have laws, and there is (ideally) no randomness.
A forced raffle where everyone has to join is unfair, yes. That's why we have laws, and there is (ideally) no randomness.
Actually nobody selected their own parents or when and where they were born. That's a random selection that cannot be undone.
Hey, I didn’t catch word about the raffle until it ended and that’s not fair
That's still your fault, you could have read the newspaper in time to look for raffles.
My parents didn’t teach me to read. You have an unfair advantage.
while literacy is an advantage, its hardly unfair.
It‘s unfair to keep large amounts of generational wealth untaxed in the family while hard working people are taxed.
Two hard working people are born in poverty. They each work hard and reap the rewards of their success. They both pay income tax on their gains. One of the people spends their lifetime of accrued wealth on themselves, buying a nice car, a huge house, and luxury goods they don't really need. The other person is concerned about the future of their only child and lives well below their means, when they die they will their estate to their child who immediately stops working and never works again. Is that fair?
Now consider a third person who also cares for their child. This person also lives frugally but instead of saving their wealth every year they buy their kid fancy cars and luxury goods. They die penniless but their kid never had to work a day in their life. Is that fair?
Now consider a third person who also cares for their child. This person also lives frugally but instead of saving their wealth every year they buy their kid fancy cars and luxury goods. They die penniless but their kid never had to work a day in their life. Is that fair?
It confuses work ethic with fairness. It works because we incorrectly associate good work ethic with positive outcomes. This is a particular to our current time and place in society and we should be very cautious when attempting to universalize it.
It would be good to reframe it with consequentialism in mind to reveal the unspoken truths of the examples.
It would be good to reframe it with consequentialism in mind to reveal the unspoken truths of the examples.
> Two hard working people are born in poverty. They each work hard and reap the rewards of their success. They both pay income tax on their gains. One of the people spends their lifetime of accrued wealth on themselves, buying a nice car, a huge house, and luxury goods they don't really need. The other person is concerned about the future of their only child and lives well below their means, when they die they will their estate to their child who immediately stops working and never works again. Is that fair?
Ten generations later, the descendants of the first person have all been able to expand their wealth purely due to the wealth that their ancestor had. None of them have had to work hard for generations, but they all vigorously defend their right to give their wealth to their kids without taxes so that they also don't have to work hard. Meanwhile, the descendants of the second person are unable to acquire wealth due to the advantage that people like the first person have in controlling capital, and they all work menial jobs for people like the first person. Is that fair?
Ten generations later, the descendants of the first person have all been able to expand their wealth purely due to the wealth that their ancestor had. None of them have had to work hard for generations, but they all vigorously defend their right to give their wealth to their kids without taxes so that they also don't have to work hard. Meanwhile, the descendants of the second person are unable to acquire wealth due to the advantage that people like the first person have in controlling capital, and they all work menial jobs for people like the first person. Is that fair?
No, it isn’t fair but that can be avoided by adding friction to wealth via an annual wealth tax, and then only applying it on the largest (100m+) fortunes. I don’t think anyone thinks someone who works hard and saves shouldn’t be able to pass on a few million, or even tens of millions, to their descendant. But what you refer to is equally true - no one but the beneficiaries agree that someone should be born into monstrous wealth and be able to sustain generation after generation on the basis only of winning the ovarian lottery.
I, personally, would have a tax of 100% on all wealth over $100m.
I, personally, would have a tax of 100% on all wealth over $100m.
I limited my hypotheticals to a single generation because I was interested in learning specifically what it is about inheritence that people find unfair.
Your response would seem to posit a different set of questions, namely should capital be used to make decisions for society and does a concentration of capital force those without to work a lifetime of menial jobs?
I'm less interested in addressing these questions since I've heard a lot about them before and I think it will take us on a further tangent from the original discussion. But I will just say that I see no difference between a first generation person who doesn't work and a tenth generation person who doesn't work beyond perhaps an abstract greater disconnection from the rest of society and the concept of hard working. And that for capital to have influence over society it must be deployed which carries with it the risk of losing said capital.
Your response would seem to posit a different set of questions, namely should capital be used to make decisions for society and does a concentration of capital force those without to work a lifetime of menial jobs?
I'm less interested in addressing these questions since I've heard a lot about them before and I think it will take us on a further tangent from the original discussion. But I will just say that I see no difference between a first generation person who doesn't work and a tenth generation person who doesn't work beyond perhaps an abstract greater disconnection from the rest of society and the concept of hard working. And that for capital to have influence over society it must be deployed which carries with it the risk of losing said capital.
I'm not sure how you can separate the question about inheritance fairness from multiple generations other than in a very abstract sense because I think the unfairness is most often perceived with wealth that is so great that it will last beyond just the immediate heirs lifetimes. An inheritance of $10,000 is likely not going to last long enough to be passed on to one's own children, but an inheritance of hundreds of millions is presumably not going to be entirely used up in one generation.
Why does the number of generations that can free ride matter? If Warren Buffett can make 100 billion dollars in a single generation then he can skew society today. How would it be any different if he'd inherited it from his parents? Or his great great great to the nth grandparents? If there is a problem with concentrated wealth why is it more of a problem if it took a long time to accrue or to deplete or if it was accrued 200 years ago or this morning?
Let's say that there are three tables being used for playing Monopoly. Each of these games is played between a player designated A and a player designated B. At table 1, the game is played under standard rules. At table 2, the game is played with the standard rules, except at the end of the game, all of the money that the winning player has is given to player A in addition to their regular starting amount. At table 3, the same rules are played as at table 2, except that money is only passed on to player A in games where they did not start with additional extra money from the previous game.
Each table plays 10,000 games, and then the number of wins for each player are counted. Which table do you expect to have the greatest difference in the number of wins between players A and B, and which would you expect to have the least difference in wins between players A and B? I'd consider the table with the least expected difference of wins to be the most "fair", and the table with the greatest expected difference to be the least fair. My hypothesis is that table 1 would be the most fair, followed by table 3, and then table 2 would be the least fair.
Translating this to inheritance in the real world, I think being able to give an advantage to one's descendants for 10 generations is less fair than being able to give it to only one generation. In the context of something like an estate tax, I could imagine something like an implementation where accepting an inheritance incurs a higher tax rate on any money bequeathed up to the amount you inherited. For example, if I inherit $1,000,000 over my lifetime and then leave $5,000,000 to my heir, maybe the first $1,000,000 might incur an extra 10% tax, but then the remaining $4,000,000 is taxed at the regular rate. For something like this to be seriously implemented, I expect that it might need do account for more things (e.g. adjustment for inflation), but at least as far as I can see it seems like a pretty reasonable idea. It's possible that something like this already exists though!
Each table plays 10,000 games, and then the number of wins for each player are counted. Which table do you expect to have the greatest difference in the number of wins between players A and B, and which would you expect to have the least difference in wins between players A and B? I'd consider the table with the least expected difference of wins to be the most "fair", and the table with the greatest expected difference to be the least fair. My hypothesis is that table 1 would be the most fair, followed by table 3, and then table 2 would be the least fair.
Translating this to inheritance in the real world, I think being able to give an advantage to one's descendants for 10 generations is less fair than being able to give it to only one generation. In the context of something like an estate tax, I could imagine something like an implementation where accepting an inheritance incurs a higher tax rate on any money bequeathed up to the amount you inherited. For example, if I inherit $1,000,000 over my lifetime and then leave $5,000,000 to my heir, maybe the first $1,000,000 might incur an extra 10% tax, but then the remaining $4,000,000 is taxed at the regular rate. For something like this to be seriously implemented, I expect that it might need do account for more things (e.g. adjustment for inflation), but at least as far as I can see it seems like a pretty reasonable idea. It's possible that something like this already exists though!
Monopoly is an extremely crude model of the real world. To strain the analogy further, why are you always transferring wins to player A? A better model is to just let both players keep whatever they have at the end of each game and use it to start the next game. Oh, and also at the end of each game you die and are replaced with a completely different person.
But none of this matters because Monopoly is not real life.
The wealthy used to amass real physical resources; ores, livestock, land, people... Now we mostly have them chasing digital zeroes in a bank account. It really is much better. So some people buy a yacht every now and again? That's great! Yachtmakers have a reason to go to work every day and the world keeps spinning.
If you think there should be a cap on the total amount of zeroes anyone can hold at one time I totally get where you're coming from, but I don't get the obsession with taking a cut when someone dies beyond the normal cut we take when people just transfer wealth to eachother because a clever person will just make a plan to do this before they die and that is unfair to folks that aren't so clever.
But none of this matters because Monopoly is not real life.
The wealthy used to amass real physical resources; ores, livestock, land, people... Now we mostly have them chasing digital zeroes in a bank account. It really is much better. So some people buy a yacht every now and again? That's great! Yachtmakers have a reason to go to work every day and the world keeps spinning.
If you think there should be a cap on the total amount of zeroes anyone can hold at one time I totally get where you're coming from, but I don't get the obsession with taking a cut when someone dies beyond the normal cut we take when people just transfer wealth to eachother because a clever person will just make a plan to do this before they die and that is unfair to folks that aren't so clever.
It would take an extraordinary amount of discipline to maintain that wealth ten generations down the line. “Rags to rags in three generations” is a saying for a reason.
I think the answer is to treat capital gains and dividends the same as ordinary employment income and subject to the same tax rates. Perhaps introduce a sub-1% wealth tax per annum on very large fortunes (100m+) to add friction that the wealthy have to work to counteract.
*and to treat loans against capital assets as taxable income. Otherwise we’ll keep seeing the wealthy avoid taxation by loaning against their assets. So long as rates stay relatively low.
Maybe stop taxing any of it...
Parents payed taxes when they acquired their possessions. I dont see why they should have a double tax burden.
maybe the government should tax consumption instead of work or investment?
Most governments seem to tax all of these things.
It's obviously a nuanced discussion, but it's certainly a personal windfall to inherit land. It's hard to call it unfair, that's just life, but comparing one person who inherited land to someone who did not, it's clear who has the luckiest version of that scenario.
As long as there is sufficiently high property taxes that owners of land are forced to put it to societally useful purpose in order to pay the tax, I don’t see an issue with land inheritances. I don’t agree with “deemed disposition” tax rules that act as if the land was “sold” to the inheritor, triggering massive capital gains taxes.
I assume this is also the case in a lot of other countries, but where I live the inheritance rules are different for farm land/assets. There's still a tax on it, but the lower limit is much higher, and I think the rate might be lower too.
I think the aim of this is to avoid breaking up already poorly performing farms, and because the business tend to be low-revenue but high in assets (land, mostly). Doesn't hurt that farmers are a huge voting block here.
I think the aim of this is to avoid breaking up already poorly performing farms, and because the business tend to be low-revenue but high in assets (land, mostly). Doesn't hurt that farmers are a huge voting block here.
Do you live in France by any chance?
This is good advice. Farming yourself will be an uphill battle. You will learn, but it will take some time and it helps if you have someone to guide you because so much of it is experience based. You can probably lease the land to a local farmer to farm it for you. You could maybe even convince them to take you on as a farm hand and teach you how to do it as part of the deal.
As said, there is a lot that goes into farming these days and almost everyone specializes in a crop or two. The folks that do it the old fashion ways without adapting are usually going under because their yields are poor / inconsistent. This will likely be you if you go at it alone, so unless you are okay with eating some losses then I would get help.
As said, there is a lot that goes into farming these days and almost everyone specializes in a crop or two. The folks that do it the old fashion ways without adapting are usually going under because their yields are poor / inconsistent. This will likely be you if you go at it alone, so unless you are okay with eating some losses then I would get help.
> Making a success of a commercial farm requires deep knowledge of the crop, the land, the weather and the local pests.
...plus logistics, storage, insurance, finances, repair, markets, etc, etc. I would be interested in working with a farmer through some time of my life just to learn such a wide variety of tasks!
...plus logistics, storage, insurance, finances, repair, markets, etc, etc. I would be interested in working with a farmer through some time of my life just to learn such a wide variety of tasks!
You make it sound like farming is just as hard as a regular job, plus a great deal of manual labor, plus the constant risk of total crop failure because of weather etc.
Those forces are a non-trivial part of what is driving the consolidation of land-ownership to commercial mega-farms.
> In my country you are liable to pay hefty taxes on inheritance. Neither of us have the reserves to pay those taxes on a piece of land we have no idea how to run or manage.
1. Borrow against the land to pay the inheritance taxes.
2. Rent the land to a farmer, use the cashflow to pay off the inheritance tax loan until it’s paid off.
3. Keep renting the land to receive cash income.
If the cashflow from renting the land is not enough to pay off the tax loan, sell the land.
1. Borrow against the land to pay the inheritance taxes.
2. Rent the land to a farmer, use the cashflow to pay off the inheritance tax loan until it’s paid off.
3. Keep renting the land to receive cash income.
If the cashflow from renting the land is not enough to pay off the tax loan, sell the land.
Naive.
Would placing the land in a trust, or family corporation avoid inheritance tax issues?
I'm not too well versed with all the different legal options, but I don't think I want to go into a trust (i.e. business) with my brother. Somewhere someone will be left holding the bag and that's how you destroy familial relationships. In the end, we are gonna sit with a piece of land, that neither of us know what to do with, that's gonna create more stress than it's worth.
> You inherit an asset that you are forced to liquidate in order to afford the inheritance taxes on that asset.
Do you live in France by any chance?
Do you live in France by any chance?
This is true in the US as well. Though it only affects people with larger inheritances.
https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/estates/what-are-inheri...
Out of scope for this comment, but there are several ways these taxs is avoided.
https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/estates/what-are-inheri...
Out of scope for this comment, but there are several ways these taxs is avoided.
Nope, South Africa.
> One bad crop (which could be because of no fault of your own) can mean financial ruin.
You can hedge crop in many ways. Give Terry Duffy a call.
You can hedge crop in many ways. Give Terry Duffy a call.
There is also insurance, and other income stabilization options
I will hire people for sure. I can manage numbers and people, not a farm.
Seems like France laws about inheritance.
Where is the farm at? I own one in Manizales, Colombia. We have around 25,000 trees.
Is the plantation located somewhere with nice views? If so you might be better off turning it into a bed and breakfast and offering guided/tasting tours.
Many local coffee farmers here in Colombia have opted for this option as simply "selling beans" is no longer profitable for them.
Best of luck
Does rainforest with lemurs count as nice view? Anyway, good idea, I will look into it.
Most definitely! I would totally book a night or two to see that.
How do you end up in a situation where your dad, knowing nothing about coffee plantations, ends up buying one and then leaving it to you?
My dad likes to try random stuff out of nowhere, has been living like that for ever. It's no surprise to me anymore. But sometimes he realises he does not have enough time to take care off them, the projects is abandoned or given to any of his children.
My father was the same. Bought a 1000 hectare farm and he was NOT a farmer. Hard lessons learned, I learned some of it as a kid. The most important one for me was, don't try to farm if your father/grandfather wasn't a farmer or lived that life. Farming requires a transfer of knowledge/wisdom unless ultra commercialized and brute-forced with cash.
> My dad likes to try random stuff out of nowhere
You are literally doing the same thing by not completely letting a farm manager take over, or selling it...
You are literally doing the same thing by not completely letting a farm manager take over, or selling it...
Farming experience since 2014-15. My advice would be to immediately contact a coffee contract farming company in your area. Work out the minutest details in terms of work and costs, something similar to WBS in project management.
Next sign a 3-5 year contract with the contract farming company (WBS was to make sure you're not getting a raw deal). Get them to provide you technical help. The way this works is, they recommend and you execute.
All the best!
Next sign a 3-5 year contract with the contract farming company (WBS was to make sure you're not getting a raw deal). Get them to provide you technical help. The way this works is, they recommend and you execute.
All the best!
> My advice would be to immediately contact a coffee contract farming company in your area
There aren't any thanks to a bottom tier poor country.
There aren't any thanks to a bottom tier poor country.
Ok, this may be a dumb answer but bear with me, I’ll reiterate an idea that I often proposed to a colleague who has a heirloom land and house in Wisconsin: turn it into a adult farming fantasy retreat!
Two indisputable facts: (1) Most city dwellers like myself dream about a simpler life, working in a farm with their hands, raising up at 5am, harvesting crops, etc. (2) As most people commented farming is back braking work so (1) is just a fantasy for 99.9% of people who think about this.
Why not let people live the farming life, e.g. for 5 days, living on a farm and doing the actual work as well as paying for the experience. I would easily pay $200 a night to live on a coffee plantation during harvesting time to collect and process beans or help operate a combine or milk the cows, etc (am so ignorant about farm life it’s hard to give legitimate examples :-)
I don’t know if this idea already exists in practice. The colleague I propose it with excitement always gave me a bemused but incredulous look!
Two indisputable facts: (1) Most city dwellers like myself dream about a simpler life, working in a farm with their hands, raising up at 5am, harvesting crops, etc. (2) As most people commented farming is back braking work so (1) is just a fantasy for 99.9% of people who think about this.
Why not let people live the farming life, e.g. for 5 days, living on a farm and doing the actual work as well as paying for the experience. I would easily pay $200 a night to live on a coffee plantation during harvesting time to collect and process beans or help operate a combine or milk the cows, etc (am so ignorant about farm life it’s hard to give legitimate examples :-)
I don’t know if this idea already exists in practice. The colleague I propose it with excitement always gave me a bemused but incredulous look!
It doesn't work in practice, because a day of bad work by some non-trained city dweller will most likely do a lot more than 200$ of loss of income, if not straight damage. And then there are the accidents: "was your staff qualified to operate the machine that ate their hand?" ... Best of luck finding insurance for this projecz...
The work doesn't have to be unsupervised and doesn't have to be work where mistakes carry large negative risks. Think of it more as an extended tour / homestay with some participatory elements.
We know it is possible to do because WWOOFing has been a thing for a long time. The question is more if there is enough of a market to cover the increased costs and maybe loss of productivity.
We know it is possible to do because WWOOFing has been a thing for a long time. The question is more if there is enough of a market to cover the increased costs and maybe loss of productivity.
This is reactionary logic without perspective.
Plenty of people currently pay fir lifestyle vacations that have a bit of danger.
Plenty of people currently pay fir lifestyle vacations that have a bit of danger.
I think this is a fun idea, but it overlooks the fact that most farming tasks take skill. I think the owner would most likely end up with a trashed farm at the end of the season.
Absolutely true. I was thinking more along the lines of having people do manual labor that requires minimal training.
It does exist in other forms with WWOOFing, farm stays, etc.. The problem is that while farm work looks simple, there are important skills that need to be developed before a volunteer or guest can be useful on the farm.
For example, my first WWOOFing gig asked for at least six weeks so that I could become somewhat useful and offset the costs of food and shelter.
For example, my first WWOOFing gig asked for at least six weeks so that I could become somewhat useful and offset the costs of food and shelter.
https://www.amazon.com/Coffee-Growing-Processing-Sustainable... I've heard this book recommended a few times when this was brought up.
Thanks for the link.
There are roasting certificatations you can get. It might help knowing the work that is downstream of your coffee beans.
If you have the cash and time, I recommend visiting roasters and other coffee farms. I took a 2 day roasting class on a coffee farm in Bali. Learned a TON in very little time.
If you have the cash and time, I recommend visiting roasters and other coffee farms. I took a 2 day roasting class on a coffee farm in Bali. Learned a TON in very little time.
Thanks, I will take look into it.
Professional consulting and crop insurance were created for that.
We don't have a minimum context. area?, rain?, acid soil?, market location?, variety? (early/season/late?), potential load of fruit?
Without data, we can't suggest you anything of value
Try the advice of an --independent-- professional consulting. Hear local sellers also but not only locals. Specially if they are local sellers also (Will try to sell you as many useless products as possible).
Remember this: Chemicals are not a magic wand. Is the number one mistake of a newbie. Sometimes are useful, but incorrectly used can do more harm than good. If your plants get ill, first discover the real problem. Your plants are alive beings in the Family Rubiaceae, try to understand their ecological needs and fix those first.
If you are newbie I would suggest to diversify your crops to reduce the possibility of failure. Some years are bad, other good. Do your location allows avocados? zapotes? icecream beans? plant a couple of trees somewhere to exercise your skills where they don't disturb the coffee plants or where they help them (If I remember correctly coffee plants need some light shadow to grow well, check it). Just an example, not need to be followed literally but, in resume, don't put all your eggs in the same basket.
We don't have a minimum context. area?, rain?, acid soil?, market location?, variety? (early/season/late?), potential load of fruit?
Without data, we can't suggest you anything of value
Try the advice of an --independent-- professional consulting. Hear local sellers also but not only locals. Specially if they are local sellers also (Will try to sell you as many useless products as possible).
Remember this: Chemicals are not a magic wand. Is the number one mistake of a newbie. Sometimes are useful, but incorrectly used can do more harm than good. If your plants get ill, first discover the real problem. Your plants are alive beings in the Family Rubiaceae, try to understand their ecological needs and fix those first.
If you are newbie I would suggest to diversify your crops to reduce the possibility of failure. Some years are bad, other good. Do your location allows avocados? zapotes? icecream beans? plant a couple of trees somewhere to exercise your skills where they don't disturb the coffee plants or where they help them (If I remember correctly coffee plants need some light shadow to grow well, check it). Just an example, not need to be followed literally but, in resume, don't put all your eggs in the same basket.
Might be worth reaching out to a company like Equal Exchange. They may be able to connect you with educational resources.
https://shop.equalexchange.coop/
https://shop.equalexchange.coop/
Will take a look into it, thanks for the link.
I also own (and live on) a small coffee plantation, and I know a little about it. Feel free to dm me for any questions. I’d be up for a call to chat a bit, maybe I can answer some questions? Glad to share what I have learned.
Basically, you will either sell to the local processors or you will process it yourself. We are gearing up to process ourselves. We have about 10k trees, and we do all organic and no non natural fertilizers or pesticides. This year we are producing about 500 lbs of coffee after roasting. I think we can get to maybe 1000 lbs ( more with chemical fertilizers).
We will be making a boutique coffee with a story and a negative carbon footprint (we don’t do mechanized agriculture, and have solar charged electric vehicles for transport to the nearby, downhill port. and will be shipping on sail-only vessels to the USA)
Basically, you will either sell to the local processors or you will process it yourself. We are gearing up to process ourselves. We have about 10k trees, and we do all organic and no non natural fertilizers or pesticides. This year we are producing about 500 lbs of coffee after roasting. I think we can get to maybe 1000 lbs ( more with chemical fertilizers).
We will be making a boutique coffee with a story and a negative carbon footprint (we don’t do mechanized agriculture, and have solar charged electric vehicles for transport to the nearby, downhill port. and will be shipping on sail-only vessels to the USA)
You're doing exactly what I was debating to do. I'll send you and e-mail. Thanks a lot.
Farming is a hard and unforgiving activity. Most guys who have a dream to become farmers fail miserably since it requires a ton of grit, know-how, problem-solving and luck. With the help of science (measuring soil, pests, weather and so on) and capital input to buy tools (hand tools, sprays/pesticides (if really needed), farmhands, vehicles, watering systems, monitoring systems and so on), you might succeed.
If you are willing to be honest with yourself, you might find that being a farmer is not for you and it might be better to sell. You can also run it purely as a business, aka being a kind of farm manager and not be too close to the ground but employ good people that knows the plants/cultivars and the local environment (weather, soil, pests), listen to your people, treat them well, treat your new neighbours extremely well, as they will assist with a ton of knowledge and sometime physical help. Most importantly, honour the land & the plants; take good care of them and your environment and everything might fall into place a bit easier.
This is tough thing to be given/gifted, to be honest. Please prepare for the worst, emotionally and physically. It might also be the most rewarding and freeing thing you can do with your life and/or become.
Do not discount alternative income streams: if there are more land available, plant some other low maintenance crops or small stocks like chickens and so on for cash flow. If there is a river/stream, forest, small mountains etc, it can be worthwhile to build a handful of cabins or a camping terrain (but small, you want to stay niche, have good ablution blocks, skip electricity, just supply clean water) and so on. Multiple income streams can do wonders for farms. All depends how much money you have upfront to invest into the property. Luckily, you already have the 8K trees.
Good luck mate, hope that the journey ahead works out!
If you are willing to be honest with yourself, you might find that being a farmer is not for you and it might be better to sell. You can also run it purely as a business, aka being a kind of farm manager and not be too close to the ground but employ good people that knows the plants/cultivars and the local environment (weather, soil, pests), listen to your people, treat them well, treat your new neighbours extremely well, as they will assist with a ton of knowledge and sometime physical help. Most importantly, honour the land & the plants; take good care of them and your environment and everything might fall into place a bit easier.
This is tough thing to be given/gifted, to be honest. Please prepare for the worst, emotionally and physically. It might also be the most rewarding and freeing thing you can do with your life and/or become.
Do not discount alternative income streams: if there are more land available, plant some other low maintenance crops or small stocks like chickens and so on for cash flow. If there is a river/stream, forest, small mountains etc, it can be worthwhile to build a handful of cabins or a camping terrain (but small, you want to stay niche, have good ablution blocks, skip electricity, just supply clean water) and so on. Multiple income streams can do wonders for farms. All depends how much money you have upfront to invest into the property. Luckily, you already have the 8K trees.
Good luck mate, hope that the journey ahead works out!
Anecdotally, I spent the last two years trying to grow various stuff in planters on my balcony. I invested quite a bit of time and effort into it, including good soil, fertilizers, monitoring..etc. I kinda figured that while I might not get amazing yields, I have done as much as I could to at least get decent yields.
Reality had a lot to say to the contrary. Between the various pests, weather and nutrient problems, I ended up with relatively unproductive gardens both years (Except the peppers, for some reason those ended up being both very productive and very spicy.)
All of this is to say that your comments on farming are pretty spot on. Growing stuff is hard. Growing stuff so that you make some profit to sustain yourself is even harder.
Reality had a lot to say to the contrary. Between the various pests, weather and nutrient problems, I ended up with relatively unproductive gardens both years (Except the peppers, for some reason those ended up being both very productive and very spicy.)
All of this is to say that your comments on farming are pretty spot on. Growing stuff is hard. Growing stuff so that you make some profit to sustain yourself is even harder.
> (Except the peppers, for some reason those ended up being both very productive and very spicy.)
Sounds like you need to look at your soil. What else did you try to grow?
Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why "just stop growing fodder crops for livestock and grow things humans can eat!" doesn't exactly work.
Sounds like you need to look at your soil. What else did you try to grow?
Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why "just stop growing fodder crops for livestock and grow things humans can eat!" doesn't exactly work.
Tomatoes, cucumbers, cabbages, various herbs, peas, green beans..etc.
It's not that these were unproductive, I got a good amount of vegetables and herbs from my garden, but it would have been much cheaper to hit up the farmers market to get the same amount of stuff. My anecdote was more speaking to the capriciousness of farming/gardening. Time and effort make no guarantee of the result.
It's not that these were unproductive, I got a good amount of vegetables and herbs from my garden, but it would have been much cheaper to hit up the farmers market to get the same amount of stuff. My anecdote was more speaking to the capriciousness of farming/gardening. Time and effort make no guarantee of the result.
> Time and effort make no guarantee of the result.
True enough! Growing things successfully is all about education. Actually growing what you grew might have been next to free with the right know-how (composting and natural alterations for good soil, harvesting seeds from organic foods, natural pest control, etc). But of course you don't know that until you get years worth of education!
True enough! Growing things successfully is all about education. Actually growing what you grew might have been next to free with the right know-how (composting and natural alterations for good soil, harvesting seeds from organic foods, natural pest control, etc). But of course you don't know that until you get years worth of education!
> it would have been much cheaper to hit up the farmers market to get the same amount of stuff
It seems to me generally true in the modern world that it's cheaper to buy mass-produced goods than to make things yourselves. There are exceptions, but they're increasingly rare.
It seems to me generally true in the modern world that it's cheaper to buy mass-produced goods than to make things yourselves. There are exceptions, but they're increasingly rare.
I mentioned the farmers market purposefully. The ones I visit tend to not be mass-produced stuff, but even with the commensurate price increase that carries, it's still cheaper than anything I've grown myself.
I'd imagine even a farmer's market is likely to have crops grown on a scale larger than you are growing them, even if that scale is still much smaller than mainstream commercial farms.
Bet they tasted pretty good though!
Peppers are some of the most resilient plants on earth as long as the temperature is right.
They can survive and produce with too much/too little water, don't have _tons_ of pests (although hornworms will strip the leaves if you don't remove them fast enough) and are tolerant to a lot of soil conditions.
They can survive and produce with too much/too little water, don't have _tons_ of pests (although hornworms will strip the leaves if you don't remove them fast enough) and are tolerant to a lot of soil conditions.
> including good soil, fertilizers, monitoring.. etc.
Similarly, I could afford some pots, hand-picked hot pepper seedlings and "Chilli Focus Premium Fertiliser", and to inspect them daily.
And on a good year I had a great crop, some is still in the freezer. On a bad year, the weather waterlogs them and pests finish them off.
But none of this scales to 8K plants. None of this was intended to show a net profit.
Similarly, I could afford some pots, hand-picked hot pepper seedlings and "Chilli Focus Premium Fertiliser", and to inspect them daily.
And on a good year I had a great crop, some is still in the freezer. On a bad year, the weather waterlogs them and pests finish them off.
But none of this scales to 8K plants. None of this was intended to show a net profit.
>very spicy
means the plants had a lot of stress :)
means the plants had a lot of stress :)
The farmer manager is likely how I will handle it. I have no interest in being a farmer (for now) but still want it as a business that I oversee, hence the need to learn at least a few things about how things work. I'll looking to hire people then. I realise it will be hard and will require a lot from me, but that's why I want to try, the new venture is exciting. Money is not a problem because I live in a third world country, labors and lands are still cheap.
I'm into coffee and understand the processing bit. There is a real market for quality specialty coffee. What varieties are you growing?
It's 60% Robusta 40% Arabica.
Try to also find what specific varieties of Arabica, if you can. That matters a lot for specialty coffee.
There is not a lot of Robusta specialty, and for a reason: it isn't known for being great tasting coffee.
There is not a lot of Robusta specialty, and for a reason: it isn't known for being great tasting coffee.
On the to do list. But here, not a lot is documented. I will probably have to call a lab when looking for certification in order to have a proper labelling when selling. That would settle it. I'll be more careful if later I have to plant though.
I actually prefer Robusta but it's getting hard to find since some marketing genious figured out that you could charge a little more with that "100% Arabica" on the bag.
The thing is, for Arabica to be good the roast has to be right and the brew has to be right. Robusta, not as flowery but it can take a lot if abuse and still taste quite good.
The thing is, for Arabica to be good the roast has to be right and the brew has to be right. Robusta, not as flowery but it can take a lot if abuse and still taste quite good.
To most "coffee people"'s palette, Robusta is like burnt shoe leather strained through an old gym sock. Vietnamese drink a lot of it since they grow it there, and it's been successfully marketed in the US by "extreme amounts of caffeine" brands.
> for Arabica to be good the roast has to be right and the brew has to be right
But the OP doesn't have to worry about that, they just need to find a way to market their beans to a specialty roaster. Small batch single origin Arabica can make a tidy little profit.
> for Arabica to be good the roast has to be right and the brew has to be right
But the OP doesn't have to worry about that, they just need to find a way to market their beans to a specialty roaster. Small batch single origin Arabica can make a tidy little profit.
> But the OP doesn't have to worry about that, they just need to find a way to market their beans to a specialty roaster. Small batch single origin Arabica can make a tidy little profit.
This, I'll probably switch to mainly Arabica as soon as I can (Bourbon and Arabica Elita)
This, I'll probably switch to mainly Arabica as soon as I can (Bourbon and Arabica Elita)
Yeah. I suggest don't get into roasting. But definitely approach roasters with the robusta offering. Maybe they would be interested in doing a blend.
There are people who prefer robusta. Just .. not many.
Exportation and local consumption tends to mainly prefer Robusta. I prefer Robusta also, way stronger, wakes me better.
This is true. But there is plenty of good speciality robusta. It just tastes often like rubber! (Imo)
Good on you for trying to grow food, and seeing how hard it is! Over time I've grown more and more fond of people just doing hard things, not necessarily new things, admiring the willingness to "wade through reality" to see what it's really like. With gardening and food growing, I think the public view is very wrong - that its easy grunt work that anyone could learn in an afternoon. The same belief is held about most skills, like plumbing, carpentry, or electrical repair. Once you start executing a project, you get to learn how wrong you were. Which, I think, is fascinating and fun!
Speaking from experience?
One of the problems in the third world is that thugs backed by local politicians can illegally take over your land. Neighbors can start stealing your land meter by meter every year. Even if your relative becomes a guardian of this land, don't expect anything good from such relatives. For instance, people get fake death certificates of the real owner in order to take over others' lands.
8000 tree coffee plantation could be 4 to 18 acres of land. Unless you visit Madagascar every 6 months, unless you have a trusty hand, better sell it. I don't know the prices in Madagascar, you can get at least $200K for it.
8000 tree coffee plantation could be 4 to 18 acres of land. Unless you visit Madagascar every 6 months, unless you have a trusty hand, better sell it. I don't know the prices in Madagascar, you can get at least $200K for it.
That's not happening here, it's quite peaceful compared to other poor country, we don't have cartels. I live in Madagascar full time, I will probably go back to France some day because my fiancee is French but not in the next 3 years for sure. Now way it's not worth more that $25K, yes you red that right. It hasn't produced anything yet.
Since you live in Madagascar, you can run the planation yourself with some helpers.
> One of the problems in the third world is that thugs backed by local politicians can illegally take over your land.
That's not even limited to the third world. Source: Personal experience of owning farmland in a first world country, with a mining company operating nearby, while living elsewhere myself. The only mitigation is to get involved in local politics, and to play as dirty as the thugs do. Not something you can do from far away.
tl;dr: I'd be biased towards selling, after getting a couple of independent opinions on value.
That's not even limited to the third world. Source: Personal experience of owning farmland in a first world country, with a mining company operating nearby, while living elsewhere myself. The only mitigation is to get involved in local politics, and to play as dirty as the thugs do. Not something you can do from far away.
tl;dr: I'd be biased towards selling, after getting a couple of independent opinions on value.
Short-term: hire someone to keep the trees alive.
Longer-term: start reaching out to top agricultural programs for advice. Look for lists like this one & write to faculty: https://agronomag.com/best-schools-for-farmers-in-the-us/. You’ll probably be able to find people with expertise in coffee. I bet there are also conferences or industry associations that will help with networking. There are probably also government programs in your country.
What happens to the coffee today? Is 8000 trees a lot (sounds like it to me)?
Longer-term: start reaching out to top agricultural programs for advice. Look for lists like this one & write to faculty: https://agronomag.com/best-schools-for-farmers-in-the-us/. You’ll probably be able to find people with expertise in coffee. I bet there are also conferences or industry associations that will help with networking. There are probably also government programs in your country.
What happens to the coffee today? Is 8000 trees a lot (sounds like it to me)?
Hiring to keep trees alive for the next 3 years (done).
The second part is where I needed help. Thanks for the link.
Yes that's a lot, around 2.5 tons of roasted beans per year apparently.
The second part is where I needed help. Thanks for the link.
Yes that's a lot, around 2.5 tons of roasted beans per year apparently.
This happened to me.
I couldn't compete with the coffee berry borer and ended up chainsawing them down one by one. Coffee is surprisingly hard wood.
I planted noni instead, but that turned out to be a fad, and those were removed next.
Then I grew taro, and all was well.
I couldn't compete with the coffee berry borer and ended up chainsawing them down one by one. Coffee is surprisingly hard wood.
I planted noni instead, but that turned out to be a fad, and those were removed next.
Then I grew taro, and all was well.
Is wood from coffee trees worth anything? Such as for building furniture.
I don't believe so. There isn't enough wood in them. Some cultivars can grow to be small trees, but are usually pruned and kept as little bushes.
I don't know anything about it, but I'd suggest the first question (to yourself) should be do you want to learn/do, or do you just want to own it and have it be productive/successful?
I want it to be successful, but for that it needs to be handled well. I'm from a poor country and people that can do that are rare and are probably running their own business. If I can hire someone, of course I would happily hand it over, but in the mean time I still need to learn enough to oversee how things go.
This is very important. I've witnessed friends inherit land and businesses they had little interest in and they tried holding on to it just because it was "in the family".
If it's not your thing, just sell it and carry on with your life.
If it's not your thing, just sell it and carry on with your life.
I didn't even mean sell it, just pay someone to manage it, or sell a lease on it.
Hire a professional to do it for you.
There's coffee as a hobby, and coffee as a professional business. 8000 trees is the latter.
There's coffee as a hobby, and coffee as a professional business. 8000 trees is the latter.
Planning to do that if I find someone competent enough. But that is hard when living a top 10 from the bottom poor country. Also, I still need to learn enough so I can still oversee how things go.
Well find someone you trust and have them manage it. Give them some equity in the enterprise so your incentives are aligned then ask them to teach you the business of farming coffee.
Wanting to learn the business so you can micro-manage your manager sounds like a recipe for disaster.
That or sell it to a big coffee producer and go about your life doing things you’re good at.
Wanting to learn the business so you can micro-manage your manager sounds like a recipe for disaster.
That or sell it to a big coffee producer and go about your life doing things you’re good at.
I come from one of those countries as well, if you work as a software dev or have a good amount of income, this is great.
I would assume labor is cheap where you’re from, the problem might be with selling your product locally.
I would assume labor is cheap where you’re from, the problem might be with selling your product locally.
I'm on a sabbatical year, learning how to code. I used to live and work in France so yeah, I have money to invest if needed because labor is cheap. Selling locally won't bring in much profit. That's why I want to specialize in specialty coffee, better margin and easier to export. I'm looking at producing rice also, this time for local consumption.
I understand your dilemma, but I don't see a way around hiring a professional.
Think of one of the simpler tasks. Say you need to fertilize the trees. When is the right time? What is the right amount? How many people do you need to fertilize 8000 trees in time? How do you finance that, including purchasing the fertilizer? Are you even allowed to purchase that much fertilizer (it's been often abused to make car bombs)?
No idea whether fertilizing is even a thing with coffee, but other tasks won't be much simpler.
If you can't hire one, is taking on a temporary partner (for a cut off the profit) an option?
Think of one of the simpler tasks. Say you need to fertilize the trees. When is the right time? What is the right amount? How many people do you need to fertilize 8000 trees in time? How do you finance that, including purchasing the fertilizer? Are you even allowed to purchase that much fertilizer (it's been often abused to make car bombs)?
No idea whether fertilizing is even a thing with coffee, but other tasks won't be much simpler.
If you can't hire one, is taking on a temporary partner (for a cut off the profit) an option?
As you said it's a huge dilemma. I will keep it as green as possible, even if it cuts production by a big percentage. I'd rather have it fail that be not environmentally friendly. My life does not depend on it, I can afford to fail and that is why I want to try. I can hire people, labors are cheap where I live so that won't be a problem. A partner is fine if competent enough I guess. For now the goal is to break even, If I can achieve that it will be win already.
World coffee research may be a good place for you to learn about coffee farming in the 21st century. Another commenter mentioned you won't be able to farm the old ways, and WCR could support you going forward.
At the very least they could point you in the right direction to get started, and maybe even know someone you could hire.
https://worldcoffeeresearch.org/
At the very least they could point you in the right direction to get started, and maybe even know someone you could hire.
https://worldcoffeeresearch.org/
I will contact them, thanks for the link.
>I will keep it as green as possible, even if it cuts production by a big percentage. I'd rather have it fail that be not environmentally friendly. My life does not depend on it, I can afford to fail and that is why I want to try.
I'm skeptical that you're in a position where you can afford to fail, short of edge cases like "I just let the land lie fallow and pump no money whatsoever into it" or "I am a multi-millionaire already without the plantation".
I'm skeptical that you're in a position where you can afford to fail, short of edge cases like "I just let the land lie fallow and pump no money whatsoever into it" or "I am a multi-millionaire already without the plantation".
My life does not depend on it, so if it fails, I will lose money for sure but that's fine, won't be the first nor the last time. Labor is cheap and I want to try.
> Say you need to fertilize the trees. When is the right time? What is the right amount? How many people do you need to fertilize 8000 trees in time?
You experiment. It takes a lot of time, yes, but it’s not that difficult.
I find your answer and many other here overly pessimistic and unkind. Not every thing is about hustling a business to perfection and on the first try.
You experiment. It takes a lot of time, yes, but it’s not that difficult.
I find your answer and many other here overly pessimistic and unkind. Not every thing is about hustling a business to perfection and on the first try.
> You experiment. It takes a lot of time, yes, but it’s not that difficult.
A failed experiment might cost you 8000 trees. It takes a massive amount of time, and money, to re-launch an experiment of this scale. And every re-launch, you restart the 3-4 year clock until trees are mature enough to harvest.
When you quoted me, you left out the part about how to finance all of this.
> Not every thing is about hustling a business to perfection and on the first try.
With an 8000 tree farm, that point is you very very likely have only one try.
A failed experiment might cost you 8000 trees. It takes a massive amount of time, and money, to re-launch an experiment of this scale. And every re-launch, you restart the 3-4 year clock until trees are mature enough to harvest.
When you quoted me, you left out the part about how to finance all of this.
> Not every thing is about hustling a business to perfection and on the first try.
With an 8000 tree farm, that point is you very very likely have only one try.
[deleted]
I agree. Running a small cafe would be daunting to me; a roastery even more so; a freaking coffee farm is something else!
Well, in my wildest dream I would do all of this, control the production from start to finish. The coffee shop culture is not really a thing yet in my country, I always wanted to start one. I miss it from when I lived in France where you had coffee shop everywhere.
Hack beans? :)
Well, very original post for HN. Even considering, I myself was deeply involved in beekeeping. I even now eventually consider to become beekeeper ;)
What I think, seriously, I started beekeeping from two hives (one initially was empty).
Unfortunately, this was initiative of my grandfather, but other relatives was not interested in this, so after his death they just sold all tools and forgot about it. And I was not successful enough, to save anything.
So, primary question, You should have strong enough income, to pay this business payments, and still have normal life and make adequate savings.
If You have bold answer on overall finance question, could proceed next questions (but will return there).
Next, as I read from Your answers, this planned to give wholesale amount of beans, this is not small business.
This mean, You need not only knowledge about gathering trees and keeping them, but also, warehouse management, marketing, and selling beans on agricultural stock exchange, and medium size business management.
So, that is list, of what to learn:
- gathering trees and keeping them
- warehouse management
- marketing
- agricultural stock exchange
- medium size business management
And the last advice, from my own business management experience - to maximize probability of success, You should start all these activities immediately, don't wait until Your own beans will grow. I mean, start just tomorrow, buy beans directly from other bean producer (buy on stock exchange is not so good for learning) and process them and sell.
Well, very original post for HN. Even considering, I myself was deeply involved in beekeeping. I even now eventually consider to become beekeeper ;)
What I think, seriously, I started beekeeping from two hives (one initially was empty).
Unfortunately, this was initiative of my grandfather, but other relatives was not interested in this, so after his death they just sold all tools and forgot about it. And I was not successful enough, to save anything.
So, primary question, You should have strong enough income, to pay this business payments, and still have normal life and make adequate savings.
If You have bold answer on overall finance question, could proceed next questions (but will return there).
Next, as I read from Your answers, this planned to give wholesale amount of beans, this is not small business.
This mean, You need not only knowledge about gathering trees and keeping them, but also, warehouse management, marketing, and selling beans on agricultural stock exchange, and medium size business management.
So, that is list, of what to learn:
- gathering trees and keeping them
- warehouse management
- marketing
- agricultural stock exchange
- medium size business management
And the last advice, from my own business management experience - to maximize probability of success, You should start all these activities immediately, don't wait until Your own beans will grow. I mean, start just tomorrow, buy beans directly from other bean producer (buy on stock exchange is not so good for learning) and process them and sell.
What I must admit, typical agriculture business is very boring.
To make it less boring, could try to implement modern IoT technologies, use drones, use satellite images, use robots.
When I thinking about beekeeping, I think not about "classic" analog agriculture, but add as much electronics and computing as possible, so ideally it will be human-free business, only I, my bees and robots ;)
I think, if You will do such human-free coffee business, You could even use it as base for really big startup.
To make it less boring, could try to implement modern IoT technologies, use drones, use satellite images, use robots.
When I thinking about beekeeping, I think not about "classic" analog agriculture, but add as much electronics and computing as possible, so ideally it will be human-free business, only I, my bees and robots ;)
I think, if You will do such human-free coffee business, You could even use it as base for really big startup.
It's cheap to run, labor is also cheap.
Funny you talk about beekeeping, we also have hives for an experiment on polinazation. We will see the result next spring, I hope it will be positive so we can add more.
I started 2 months ago, no worries. I just felt that maybe asking here was a good idea.
Thanks for the tips.
Funny you talk about beekeeping, we also have hives for an experiment on polinazation. We will see the result next spring, I hope it will be positive so we can add more.
I started 2 months ago, no worries. I just felt that maybe asking here was a good idea.
Thanks for the tips.
If you do wish to take on this project and investment, I would highly recommend building a relationship with an importer/exporter. They can support you and help build the program, provide feedback, etc. I don't personally know of any in relation to Madagascar, but I would reach out to Coffee Quest, Royal, Caravela, Red Fox, Long Miles, or CCS. They all work in specific regions and might be able to steer you in the right direction.
As for the production process, it is very labor intensive. You'll most likely want to grow other plants for the sake of building an ecosystem and help diversify your farm crops. The other fruit trees can help provide shade to your coffee trees as well as offer other benefits.
It'd also be good to know what the variety and cultivar of plant you have and have a soil test done in multiple areas of your farm. It'd be most profitable to grow specialty coffee and the price is set based on quality. The higher the cup score, the higher the price (in most cases).
Good luck!
As for the production process, it is very labor intensive. You'll most likely want to grow other plants for the sake of building an ecosystem and help diversify your farm crops. The other fruit trees can help provide shade to your coffee trees as well as offer other benefits.
It'd also be good to know what the variety and cultivar of plant you have and have a soil test done in multiple areas of your farm. It'd be most profitable to grow specialty coffee and the price is set based on quality. The higher the cup score, the higher the price (in most cases).
Good luck!
Depending on where you are located in the world, find a local artisan coffee roastery and see if you can talk to the owner. It's the fastest way to gain access to face-to-face deep knowledge of the coffee industry because they typically work directly with the farmers. In the process, you may also find someone who is willing to work with you and buy all the beans you produce in 2026 and beyond.
There aren't any thanks to a bottom teir poor country. Coffee is sold / exported unroasted here. And if there are, they control the whole production line, from plants to exportation. I could learn from small producer, and learn to scale by myself I guess.
Heck, 8k trees is a lot. Definitely find a professional. Growing coffee is exceptionally difficult.
Do you have an idea which crops have been planted? Is the plantation in a favorable location (altitude, weather)?
Depending on both, you should become clear about whether you want to produce commodity coffee or specialty coffee. The latter is more difficult to produce, but also more profitable.
If you're going the specialty route, it may even be fruitful (hah!) to get in contact with content creators. They usually have useful contacts in the industry, and they might be willing to connect you.
In any case, try to get in touch with European roasters, as they usually value traceability and prefer to roast single origin coffees.
Best of luck! And enjoy the journey.
Oh, and if you had your first batch, please drop me a message. I know a few local roasters (Germany) that may be interested in new sources. :-)
Do you have an idea which crops have been planted? Is the plantation in a favorable location (altitude, weather)?
Depending on both, you should become clear about whether you want to produce commodity coffee or specialty coffee. The latter is more difficult to produce, but also more profitable.
If you're going the specialty route, it may even be fruitful (hah!) to get in contact with content creators. They usually have useful contacts in the industry, and they might be willing to connect you.
In any case, try to get in touch with European roasters, as they usually value traceability and prefer to roast single origin coffees.
Best of luck! And enjoy the journey.
Oh, and if you had your first batch, please drop me a message. I know a few local roasters (Germany) that may be interested in new sources. :-)
Already looking into hiring.
60% Robusta 40% Arabica. Really good location, altitude and weather for robusta, and slightly less for arabica.
I'm leaning towards environmental friendly speciality coffee.
I'll take you up on that offer then.
60% Robusta 40% Arabica. Really good location, altitude and weather for robusta, and slightly less for arabica.
I'm leaning towards environmental friendly speciality coffee.
I'll take you up on that offer then.
Welcome to farming, it's a continuous learning curve and like everything, be mindful of those who sell snake oil.
The next few years should see coffee prices increase due to the losses this year in South America due to the prolonged / unexpected frosts.
All I could find for a starting point. This might not be totally applicable to your region, but I'd suggest you seek out coffee growers association in your area for further advice. Best of luck.
https://agrifutures.com.au/wp-content/uploads/publications/1...
https://www.agrifarming.in/coffee-growing-information-beginn...
The next few years should see coffee prices increase due to the losses this year in South America due to the prolonged / unexpected frosts.
All I could find for a starting point. This might not be totally applicable to your region, but I'd suggest you seek out coffee growers association in your area for further advice. Best of luck.
https://agrifutures.com.au/wp-content/uploads/publications/1...
https://www.agrifarming.in/coffee-growing-information-beginn...
> be mindful of those who sell snake oil.
That is why I want to learn, scammers are everywhere. Thanks for the links.
That is why I want to learn, scammers are everywhere. Thanks for the links.
Be sure to give people their favorite gift on their birthday to increase your relationship quickly.
You've had advice to hire a farm manager; and research roasting.
Nobody so far has mentioned the processing. Roasting is for roasteries; that's not really the farmer's business. But in most coffee-growing areas, the farmers organize into collectives, with shared processing facilities. A lot of the distinctive characters of coffees are the result of the way the cherries are processed. Since the collective's output is all mixed together, it's not single-estate; I assume that sales are handled by the collective, not by individual farmers.
Maybe there isn't a processing collective in your area; perhaps you could launch a processing facility, and encourage your neighbours to have a go.
Nobody so far has mentioned the processing. Roasting is for roasteries; that's not really the farmer's business. But in most coffee-growing areas, the farmers organize into collectives, with shared processing facilities. A lot of the distinctive characters of coffees are the result of the way the cherries are processed. Since the collective's output is all mixed together, it's not single-estate; I assume that sales are handled by the collective, not by individual farmers.
Maybe there isn't a processing collective in your area; perhaps you could launch a processing facility, and encourage your neighbours to have a go.
Interestingly, there isn't one in my area. Most of the coffee is exported unroasted here, and the local consumers roast theirs themselves.
By "processing", I specifically meant to exclude roasting. As far as I'm aware, coffee beans are generally roasted in the country where they're consumed. Roasted beans don't stay fresh as long as green beans. I meant the processing that converts cherries into dry green beans.
That processing always occurs near the place it was grown; cherries don't keep. The pulp has to be removed. That can be entirely mechanical, or it can be by fermenting. There are different ways of doing the fermenting. Then someone has to pick over the beans, to sort them for quality.
This is just what I've read; I'm no expert, I'm just an interested consumer. And @tsingy, I imagine you've read a lot more than I have; but you seem to have misunderstood my comment.
That processing always occurs near the place it was grown; cherries don't keep. The pulp has to be removed. That can be entirely mechanical, or it can be by fermenting. There are different ways of doing the fermenting. Then someone has to pick over the beans, to sort them for quality.
This is just what I've read; I'm no expert, I'm just an interested consumer. And @tsingy, I imagine you've read a lot more than I have; but you seem to have misunderstood my comment.
My bad, yes I misunderstood. There are but still in small scale and artisanal. And even the people we hired now can do it, but we have time until the first harvest though (3 to 4 years).
I inherited a farm as well as a listed manor attached to it. I'm in the process of selling the manor and much of the fields after 10+ years of looking for a buyer. Here's my .02:
1. You should not feel obliged to continue your father's work. You're a different person and I'm sure your father would prefer you to be happy above the farm staying in the family. If you think selling the land is a better option, do it. If you built your own career, don't sacrifice it for the farm.
2. Consider leasing it. I'm in the EU so I get subsidies (even if there's nothing there but grass), plus a lease from people who want to actually grow something there.
1. You should not feel obliged to continue your father's work. You're a different person and I'm sure your father would prefer you to be happy above the farm staying in the family. If you think selling the land is a better option, do it. If you built your own career, don't sacrifice it for the farm.
2. Consider leasing it. I'm in the EU so I get subsidies (even if there's nothing there but grass), plus a lease from people who want to actually grow something there.
1. Well, agriculture always had my interest. As an example, people in my country eat the most rice per inhabitants in the world, yet we still import rice. We have land and everything to plant rice, just not enough tools or knowledge to scale it. So I want to try, this is an opportunity I can't miss to start with.
2. I might if I find people who would pay for it with the promise of keeping thing environmentally friendly.
2. I might if I find people who would pay for it with the promise of keeping thing environmentally friendly.
Perhaps you could require an organic farmic certificate or something, rather than a promise. At a vary least such certificate should in theory prohibit from using anything harmful to the environment. I got one, but mainly for higher subsidies.
Hey I think the best bet is to reach out to some people in the gourmet coffee bean space who are trustworthy. Like some coffee-roasters who you've been buying from for years who have dealt with farm-to-table approach. With some vetting you can probably get some worthy deal going.
Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of places in New York that I believe are ran by diligent people. I could probably point you to their direction if that's of interest, but I am in no way affiliated nor interested in getting into that kind of business, just would love to see such a resource not go to waste.
Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of places in New York that I believe are ran by diligent people. I could probably point you to their direction if that's of interest, but I am in no way affiliated nor interested in getting into that kind of business, just would love to see such a resource not go to waste.
Please, it would be really helpful.
Farming is hard, and margins are low. Coffee is also labor-intensive.
What I'd do is find a local farmer in the area and lease it to them. You can probably set up something where they pay you something like 25% of the crop for rent.
What I'd do is find a local farmer in the area and lease it to them. You can probably set up something where they pay you something like 25% of the crop for rent.
Depends on where it is, and what your ambitions are, but you can potentially make an awful lot more from agritourism (think vineyard hotels) than you can from agriculture directly, which is a brutal business in general.
It's in Madagascar, will take a look into that, thanks. Any links to start with?
Madagascar is not known for its specialty coffee. Might not be a deal killer but the country produces mostly coffee for use by large corps.
It's not known because no one produces enough of it and markets it well. The land and climate are perfect, we have Bourbon and Arabica Elita that is high in demand but production does not follow.
If your spanish is decent, just go to any country in south america and find a farmer/owner. Farms aplenty out of every major metro about 1-2 hours from the metro, in every direction. A quick google will help you find the regions in every country where coffee is grown, or maybe even google maps.
They will gladly talk to you for hours and show you the ropes. If they like you they will give you carte blanche to come in to the property unannounced and speak to their employees, anytime.
Because in the end, its possible you buy their plants or seeds, and many farmers make money from that too.
They will gladly talk to you for hours and show you the ropes. If they like you they will give you carte blanche to come in to the property unannounced and speak to their employees, anytime.
Because in the end, its possible you buy their plants or seeds, and many farmers make money from that too.
Unfortunately I'm not, I'll try to travel there and attempt this one day though. It's the last continent I haven't visited.
Lots of people saying "sell it" vs "keep it". But OP was only looking for advice on farming. Not financial advice.
My guess is there are coffee farms nearby. If so, lean on a local experts advice.
My guess is there are coffee farms nearby. If so, lean on a local experts advice.
A friend of mine had a similar situation. They retained a few acres around their ancestral home and run a homestay during tourist season.
The bulk of the land was leased out to a large coffee company on a multiyear lease.
The bulk of the land was leased out to a large coffee company on a multiyear lease.
Familiarize with Fair Trade practices (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade_coffee), get in contact with other bean growers, like Equal Exchange as someone else mentioned. Consider operating as a co-op where the workers are actually owners too. I get the sense this industry is pretty fraught with worker abuse problems regardless but at least try to be on the right side of things.
Added to my to do list.
You might look into "Syntropic" agriculture and "Permaculture". The basic idea is to mimic natural ecosystems with agriculturally productive plants and animals.
https://agendagotsch.com/en/what-is-syntropic-farming/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture
https://agendagotsch.com/en/what-is-syntropic-farming/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture
Will looks into those, thanks a lot. As I want to be environmentally friendly these a really interesting.
Farming is about sales and marketing.
My FIL bought two farms as a hobby, and he essentially has two choices: selling to middlemen for peanuts or going direct-to-consumer. DTC is problematic for obvious reasons - you have to do last-mile delivery and "how do people buy when they don't know what's available."
Middlemen buy low from you so they can sell high from someone else, and have market-making ability.
So before you do anything, try to figure out who you're going to sell these crops to.
My FIL bought two farms as a hobby, and he essentially has two choices: selling to middlemen for peanuts or going direct-to-consumer. DTC is problematic for obvious reasons - you have to do last-mile delivery and "how do people buy when they don't know what's available."
Middlemen buy low from you so they can sell high from someone else, and have market-making ability.
So before you do anything, try to figure out who you're going to sell these crops to.
[deleted]
If you have the money, hire an expert grower and pay them a salary. Have them manage the plantation and the migrant workers.
That’s it. Keep it simple. No partnership. No business deals. A simple employee arrangement.
That’s basically step one. However, it will free up your time to find a buyer for the beans when it’s time to harvest them and sell them. Rinse and repeat.
That’s it. Keep it simple. No partnership. No business deals. A simple employee arrangement.
That’s basically step one. However, it will free up your time to find a buyer for the beans when it’s time to harvest them and sell them. Rinse and repeat.
There is no expert of that kind here, bottom tier poor country. If they are good at something they are probably working on their own stuff or are already employed.
Sell it. It's going to be a massive drag on your life until you're up to speed (easily a decade) and won't make enough money to be worth it.
If there isn't a massive attachment to the land, that's what I would do. Bona fides: I manage a 7th generation family cork farm that I will one day inherit and promptly sell.
If there isn't a massive attachment to the land, that's what I would do. Bona fides: I manage a 7th generation family cork farm that I will one day inherit and promptly sell.
Talk to the folks at Sweet Maria's (https://www.sweetmarias.com/) in Oakland, CA if possible. They work with coffee farmers all over the world. I'm sure they can find someone in the immediate area that can help.
I will contact them, thanks a lot.
i am sure people have already reached out to you, but my wife and i managed a large plantation, permaculture (more work, better for the environment ((sustainable)))- in Nicaragua (Masaya area). We are looking to relocate from Berlin, and this could be an idea. send me a message to [email protected]
Permaculture is the goal, but I don't know enough and hiring someone that know enough is also tough. I'm in Madagascar, a bottom tier poor country, has a lot of potential though.
Mail sent.
Mail sent.
Can I come stay and help out? I also know nothing about coffee other than it’s delicious. Maybe you could turn it into a bit of a learning experience and document your journey as part of marketing. I’m a writer and can do video production and socials so could help with that.
It's in Madagascar, send me an e-mail (it's on my profile page) if that's a destination that still got your interest.
Where is it located? Is it a region that has experience growing coffee? Because perhaps you can link up with a coffee distributor or a fellow farmer and get their advice. Also to be clear unless the coffee is in a warm high grown area, or on an island, it may not be worth a lot.
It's on the east coast of Madagascar. Yes, but mainly bulk exportation of Robusta for instant coffee. I want to shift production of speciality coffee as there is higher margin there, mainly Bourbon and Arabica Elita.
I am a long-time reader, but compelled to create account for a little (relevant) self promotion. Since you are interested in high value coffee, you might find our app, BestBeans, helpful: https://smartyields.com/best-beans/ . Does not replace local knowledge, as mentioned by others, but is helpful for record-keeping, monitoring, and decision support. We are still adding features, stay tuned.
I know someone a few years ago was trying to start a trade in coffee leaves, to help better annualize income from coffee plantations. Apparently you can use them like tea leaves.
Haven't heard much about that since. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
Haven't heard much about that since. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
Lease it to someone who knows what they're doing, is able to make a living as a farmer, and wants to take care of the land, as opposed to trash it. You're in a much better position to be a good landlord than you are to be a good farmer.
Would be easier for me to learn how to be a farmer than finding someone to lease it. People are poor here and those that can pay will certainly already have their business running somewhere, need to be convinced to take it.
Isn't that the situation you want -- someone who already is successfully farming in the area, and is ready/able to expand?
Contact a direct-to-farm coffee distributor like PT’s Coffee and ask them if they know anyone who can help you evaluate and manage it or sell it to a co-op. At the very least, they will find it interesting that you thought to ask them :)
I dont know where you live, but goverments like Brazil and UK, normally have courses and conselours to help new farmers settle in. If you leave in the us is problably something in the state level. Try call the local city hall.
[deleted]
I was really worried this post was going to be about selling it so I came by to say don’t!
I don’t have any answers about how to make coffee but two thoughts:
* start a brr.fyi blog about it, we love that here
* if Jason Mraz can do it, so can you!
I don’t have any answers about how to make coffee but two thoughts:
* start a brr.fyi blog about it, we love that here
* if Jason Mraz can do it, so can you!
Will do as soon some change happen I promise.
Well Jason Mraz has access to capital I don't, money makes doing business easier.
Thanks for the nice words.
Well Jason Mraz has access to capital I don't, money makes doing business easier.
Thanks for the nice words.
Hacker News Coffee Blend. Got a ring to it. Sure a few of us in here will buy a bag or 10 if you manage to get this going. Hire someone, setup a blog so we can follow pls and good luck!
This is "diamond" idea, I will do and will credit you for it.
Nice. Look forward to getting my first batch :)
Lol I replied and forgot you can’t DM on HN. If you want to reach out (see my other comment) drop me a line here and we can figure out a way to get in direct contact.
Replied.
Ok, I guess the best way is for you to email me. I have created a throwaway email here so I don’t dox myself too bad lol
[email protected]
Drop me a line there with your contact info. I am available on FaceTime, telegram, WhatsApp, and signal or on email of course.
[email protected]
Drop me a line there with your contact info. I am available on FaceTime, telegram, WhatsApp, and signal or on email of course.
I actually know a family with a small coffee plantation. I can put you in touch if you’re interested. Let me know and we can figure out a way to contact each other securely.
Big YES, please if it's not a bother. Thanks a lot, e-mail is in bio.
I cannot provide advice but I would like to follow along in your journey to learn as you learn. Consider a blog or vlog, I am happy to contribute financially. Best wishes.
Yes I will and will post here again when it's ready and whenever changes happen. Thanks a lot for the advice.
I'd diversify the plantation with many fruit trees, you get some seasonal workers (who collect and sell at market). As a fruitarian, I'd love to be in your position
I thought about and I'm already looking for trees / fruits that grow well with coffee. I too think it's a great opportunity, but the lack of knowledge about the subject scares me.
Some footnotes:
The plant is self pollinating, saving time
All in the plant is poisonous except beans, therefore less animal pests. I assume that it should be better to avoid skin exposure when you prune or manage the fruit.
If you find worms in the berries, check: Coffee Berry borer, biological control with wasps preferred over chemicals at long term
If you find orange patches in the underside of the leaves check: Coffee Leaf Rust, big enemy of arabica, affecting the flavor of your crop. This is the reason why UK drinks tea instead coffee. Will be a problem near the coast at lower areas. Colder places in mountainous terrain are more difficult for the fungus growth and plants in mountain areas over 1300m can deal with it, or grow clean over 1700m.
Don't bring material from contaminated farms
Soil must be rich and a little acidic; moist but well drained. Both are required. Well drained is a must. Fungi invading roots will be one of our main problems and will appear in a valley or if they are planted carelessly.
They want to be under a forest canopy (required to keep moisture), but probably not in dense shadow. Light indirect but bright. You will want to keep part of the current trees
The plant is self pollinating, saving time
All in the plant is poisonous except beans, therefore less animal pests. I assume that it should be better to avoid skin exposure when you prune or manage the fruit.
If you find worms in the berries, check: Coffee Berry borer, biological control with wasps preferred over chemicals at long term
If you find orange patches in the underside of the leaves check: Coffee Leaf Rust, big enemy of arabica, affecting the flavor of your crop. This is the reason why UK drinks tea instead coffee. Will be a problem near the coast at lower areas. Colder places in mountainous terrain are more difficult for the fungus growth and plants in mountain areas over 1300m can deal with it, or grow clean over 1700m.
Don't bring material from contaminated farms
Soil must be rich and a little acidic; moist but well drained. Both are required. Well drained is a must. Fungi invading roots will be one of our main problems and will appear in a valley or if they are planted carelessly.
They want to be under a forest canopy (required to keep moisture), but probably not in dense shadow. Light indirect but bright. You will want to keep part of the current trees
Damn, thanks a lot for all this info.
Look into selling the coffee cherry husks after debeaning them.
Read “Teaming with Microbes” and other books in the series.
Make sure it is used in full capacity! If you don't, even more forests will certainly be cut down to satisfy growing coffee demand in e.g. Asia.
Coffee is a weird crop. 8000 trees is probably about 8 or 10 acres, and you're not going to be able to work that yourself.
Where you at? Hawaii?
Where you at? Hawaii?
In Madagascar, east cost.
Agh, there I go all America-centric!
One piece of advice I'll give you (I have a coffee farm in Puerto Rico) - you can make a lot more selling as an estate brand, i.e. retailing it yourself. From Madagascar, though, I have no idea how you'd do that internationally. But you have a couple of years to figure it out.
Arabica, dried properly and sorted well, should bring you at least $20 a pound retail, which is way more than you can approach wholesale. Even after labor, you can live on 8000 trees a year.
One piece of advice I'll give you (I have a coffee farm in Puerto Rico) - you can make a lot more selling as an estate brand, i.e. retailing it yourself. From Madagascar, though, I have no idea how you'd do that internationally. But you have a couple of years to figure it out.
Arabica, dried properly and sorted well, should bring you at least $20 a pound retail, which is way more than you can approach wholesale. Even after labor, you can live on 8000 trees a year.
I don't think asking here is the best idea
I’m constantly surprised by the kinds of people found on HN. If you told me yesterday there’s an active HN reader who owns a 25,000-tree coffee farm in Colombia… and yet here we are.
There is serious money in roasting and selling good coffee. Think vertically. Supply yourself beans and roast in rich locations!
If it was me, I would focus on the business side, not the farming side.
Farming is extremely labor intensive and largely a commodity business. Marketing and branding are largely where profits are made in the beverage business.
As an example of a recent successful high grow beverage company, take a look at Liquid Death, which turned a low budget AD into a billion dollar company within years:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=iXjhNZlqexs
Farming is extremely labor intensive and largely a commodity business. Marketing and branding are largely where profits are made in the beverage business.
As an example of a recent successful high grow beverage company, take a look at Liquid Death, which turned a low budget AD into a billion dollar company within years:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=iXjhNZlqexs
That's my plan too, I'm not a farmer. But it still requires me to know how things work on a high level. Thanks for the link.
No, in my opinion you do not need to understand farming.
Liquid Death bought water wholesale from a bottling company. At 8000 trees, that’s a business, but barely, and would not support a real growing coffee business. Running building and running business is all about focusing on the right thing at the right time. Realize there’s sentimental value to fact trees were planted by your family, but in the end, it’s critical you’re clear about your goals and situation.
Liquid Death bought water wholesale from a bottling company. At 8000 trees, that’s a business, but barely, and would not support a real growing coffee business. Running building and running business is all about focusing on the right thing at the right time. Realize there’s sentimental value to fact trees were planted by your family, but in the end, it’s critical you’re clear about your goals and situation.
Who’s currently running the plantation? You need to hire someone who knows farming if you don’t already have such a person.
The people my dad hired are taking care of it for now. It takes 3 to 4 years to get the first real harvest. I still have time before thinking of how to harvest and sell. For now I just want to keep the trees alive for that duration.
Sure, I’m not even mostly talking about the harvest. I’m talking about doing everything that needs to be done to keep the trees alive and the place operating.
I noticed your trees are 60% Robusta and wanted to address the suggestions about targeting boutique coffee houses and higher-end customers: I doubt very much Robusta will be sought after.
My understanding is that market for Robusta may be only for instant coffee production or to adulterate Arabica to make cheaper. I've only rarely seen Robusta sold green and there's good reason for that: it's distinctly unpleasant by itself.
My understanding is that market for Robusta may be only for instant coffee production or to adulterate Arabica to make cheaper. I've only rarely seen Robusta sold green and there's good reason for that: it's distinctly unpleasant by itself.
This is the first thing I will do if I can manage things at an ok level. I'll switch to produce speciality coffee (Bourbon and Arabica Elita), and focus on that. Still if robusta can sold I will still take care of it.
I prefer my espresso if it is at least in part robusta. I think most espresso drinkers feel that way, so there should be at least some demand for it.
Robusta seems to be favoured for making espresso. I think robusta is not as "unpleasant" as it used to be, say 20 years ago.
Whereabouts is this? I work with farmers and I may be able to put you onto someone who can help
It's on the east cost of Madagascar.
Hey, are you from Madagascar yourself? If not, my parents-in-law used to live there and still do business there (export). They might be able to share some general knowledge.
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You could simply do nothing with it and let nature take back the land. Natural restoration.
you need a farm manager with experience managing operations of this size, in this region, with this crop. good luck finding one who is trustworthy.
aforesaid manager is also a person who would be essential if and when you choose to sell this farm.
aforesaid manager is also a person who would be essential if and when you choose to sell this farm.
I played hundreds of hours of farm simulator.
just spend 2mi on machinery and you should be good to go.
just spend 2mi on machinery and you should be good to go.
Best thing is to profit share with a farmer. When you make money they make money.
This is such an odd post for HN and it got real attention. What gives?
disclaimer: no farming experience
If I got that, I'd look into either sell it flat-out, or try and run it as a company..
disclaimer 2: only had one company, was not terribly profitable
I'd try to hire someone in to run it for me
If I got that, I'd look into either sell it flat-out, or try and run it as a company..
disclaimer 2: only had one company, was not terribly profitable
I'd try to hire someone in to run it for me
Amazing. No idea. If it were me I would hire someone experienced in both the growing, finance and marketing aspects of this. Then it becomes a question of how to pick someone good. You can be their apprentice.
It might be simpler to sell it to someone else though!
It might be simpler to sell it to someone else though!
My adventurous mind prevents me to sell. I'm might fail but I will definitely try to make something out of it.
How much money and time do you have to burn to get it started?
Overseeing the trees so they can grow does not require much time, I have a lot of time. As for money, it cost me 3000 euros per year to run with 4 people working full time on the farm. Basic tools for maintenance was given to the land.
One word: SimFarm
If you try, you’ll probably end up with locust swarms.
If you try, you’ll probably end up with locust swarms.
Serious suggestion: sharecrop it with a neighbor.
Get rid of it and invest the money
I’d sell it!
Sell it.