Office Workers Don’t Hate the Office. They Hate the Commute(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Office Workers Don’t Hate the Office. They Hate the Commute
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/19/opinion/elon-musk-remote-work.html
45 comments
Absolutely. Here’s a suggestion for employers: if you want the employees back in the office then you should pay them for the time they spend commuting. What? That’s too expensive? But didn’t you say that employees are more productive in the office? Then you’re ahead by the end of the day. Oh you can’t quantify the benefit so you can’t justify the cost? Hmmm… Have a think about what you’ve just said.
Counterpoint, they actually do since undoubtedly you're pricing that in when considering an offer.
Unless you mean per mile/minute, in which case, great way to ensure only those on the offices doorstep get hired.
Unless you mean per mile/minute, in which case, great way to ensure only those on the offices doorstep get hired.
By far and large that is wrong. There is a proportion of people who have that negotiating power, and even then only some of them will be considering the aspects of their commute in those negotiations, and they will weigh the importance of that individually, and update only after some period of time during employment, if ever. The largest proportion of people are agreeing to "what the market will bear."
Much in the same way as I have no debt and a considerable savings account, but ultimately I'm competing alongside people who have considerable debt and are fraught with scarcity and thus the going rate is pressed down due to desperate individuals willing to make considerable compromises on both the side of wages and those of working conditions. Alternatively it may be those who are willing to eschew wages for work experience, or perhaps immigrants who are really only allowed to work in some such sector who are fending for their families and willing to go to relative extremes. And etc... And this sort of stuff is what informs wages, and sets the negotiating window, if it exists, for most people and most jobs.
Much in the same way as I have no debt and a considerable savings account, but ultimately I'm competing alongside people who have considerable debt and are fraught with scarcity and thus the going rate is pressed down due to desperate individuals willing to make considerable compromises on both the side of wages and those of working conditions. Alternatively it may be those who are willing to eschew wages for work experience, or perhaps immigrants who are really only allowed to work in some such sector who are fending for their families and willing to go to relative extremes. And etc... And this sort of stuff is what informs wages, and sets the negotiating window, if it exists, for most people and most jobs.
> ensure only those on the offices doorstep get hired.
In a lot of places the people on the offices doorstep are either independently wealthy or a high level executive of some kind. If they'd rather pay 5 million a year to have someone to fill the snack machine instead of paying the IRS milage reimbursement rate more power to them.
In a lot of places the people on the offices doorstep are either independently wealthy or a high level executive of some kind. If they'd rather pay 5 million a year to have someone to fill the snack machine instead of paying the IRS milage reimbursement rate more power to them.
Alternatively, it would incentivize employees to move greater distances away from the office in order to make more money for listening to podcasts on their way to work.
That's a hard way to make a dime...
Then that employee would be first to go in layoffs, problem solved
Excellent way to put it.
Btw I have had coworkers which did successfully negotiate a per-mile rate for their commute.
I think they were earning $0.5 per mile. I thought it was hilarious (but also, fair).
Btw I have had coworkers which did successfully negotiate a per-mile rate for their commute.
I think they were earning $0.5 per mile. I thought it was hilarious (but also, fair).
I don’t think that would work… long time they would just be paid less.
I think the commute should be considered as part of the working time.
You want me to spend me two hours per day commuting to work? Fine, but that counts towards my 8 hours/day of work, meaning i can then only work 6 hours/day, for the same salary.
I think the commute should be considered as part of the working time.
You want me to spend me two hours per day commuting to work? Fine, but that counts towards my 8 hours/day of work, meaning i can then only work 6 hours/day, for the same salary.
I think if we forced companies to count commuting time as work time, up to say 1hr each way, the problem would soon resolve itself.
Right now there is no alignment of interests to ensure commutes are easier and faster for everyone, it is always a "somebody else's problem" for the people that actually drive decision making. Applying this rule would have companies crying out for more efficient and regular transit options, etc.
Right now there is no alignment of interests to ensure commutes are easier and faster for everyone, it is always a "somebody else's problem" for the people that actually drive decision making. Applying this rule would have companies crying out for more efficient and regular transit options, etc.
Possibly, but private entities don’t have the right incentives to solve public problems. They’ll try to solve this so they get the maximum benefit from their spending.
For an employer, that could mean housing subsidies, on-site housing, even company towns. Crucially these benefits will only accrue to the worker who is employed by the company, so it could depress wages as housing becomes ever more scarce.
Unfortunately we can’t fix how we’ve built our cities with just private incentives.
For an employer, that could mean housing subsidies, on-site housing, even company towns. Crucially these benefits will only accrue to the worker who is employed by the company, so it could depress wages as housing becomes ever more scarce.
Unfortunately we can’t fix how we’ve built our cities with just private incentives.
If the office was an office, y’know, 1-2 people with walls and a door and some room to work, then yeah. As the office can be a typing pool from the 50’s, what’s the use of that? Throw in the commute and “work” is becoming performance. Some thrive in such mayhem, but they’re probably not the grunts that cut code. And if your business relies on the existance and operation of such code, keep developers content.
If it doesn’t, don’t be surprised when you have to rehire. And in the age of the internet, everything is known.
If it doesn’t, don’t be surprised when you have to rehire. And in the age of the internet, everything is known.
Why do people tend to try to boil everything down to one bullet point. It's 2 or more of the following:
- The commute
- Office politics
- Open offices
- Having to buy work clothes
- Having to wear work clothes
- Having to buy expensive lunch every day
- Having to use inferior equipment
- Having to wake up an hour or two early
- Not being able to take meaningful breaks during the day
- Cost of gas
- Having to refill the car more often
- Having extra wear and tear on your car (depreciation)
- Office noise
- People carelessly interrupting you constantly
- Dealing with parking with 200 other people
- Heaven forbid if there is an accident on the commute
- You have to do it even during inclement weather
Dare we suggest, it’s the office culture? Recently started working with a great bunch of smart people in a flat hierarchy and working in the office is actually quite enjoyable.
Previous roles, I agree, working from home was better for me, and better for the employer too.
Previous roles, I agree, working from home was better for me, and better for the employer too.
They don’t hate the commute, they hate the rent. That’s why they pick miserable commutes over unsustainable rents of living closer to the economic hubs where offices are.
I once had the chance of an Oracle DBA contract in London. If I chose to live close to work the increased money would have gone on rent. If I chose to save the extra earnings then I faced a very long commute. I passed up on the opportunity since neither option appealed. Good jobs in major cities are like that - hedonistic treadmills.
They're not mutually exclusive to hate.
No, I hate the office.
Distracting open floor plans, no access to healthy foods, not being able to see my children throughout the day.
I live less than a mile from my office - and I still WFH full time.
Distracting open floor plans, no access to healthy foods, not being able to see my children throughout the day.
I live less than a mile from my office - and I still WFH full time.
But it’s so much better now. Everyone is on zoom meetings in their cubes all day so you get to half attend meetings all day long that have nothing to do with you when you’re trying to concentrate.
I turned down an otherwise-attractive offer last year because they wouldn't budge on five days a week in the office. My door-to-door commute there would have amounted to just about 8 hours per week (assuming the subway is running properly, which you can't assume in Boston, but let's for the sake of argument).
I told them that, since the commute would have lengthened my work week by 20%, I'd reconsider if they came up on their offer by 20%. Haven't heard back, I assume they're still thinking about it.
I told them that, since the commute would have lengthened my work week by 20%, I'd reconsider if they came up on their offer by 20%. Haven't heard back, I assume they're still thinking about it.
Yeahh I don't think you're getting a call back. Hopefully they do though!
Well they haven't said no yet and it's only been...[checks watch]...14 months.
I rather like the commute, half-an-hour on the Tube (Metro for non-Londoners) each way gives me time to read, 5 hours a week is a novel, so 40-50 a year. I couldn't read any during the lockdown and could almost feel myself shrivelling culturally ...
Meh, I switched that commute time reading (that I really missed) to listening to audiobooks at the gym. So I get the same reading but better health impact.
I used to do a lot of my reading on the train. Over an hour each way.
Now that's I'm 100% WFH, I do that reading on the sofa at home. While I don't know everyone's circumstances, if people can only get the time to do things that they want to do (like reading) as a side-effect of what would be otherwise useless travel time, I feel that there's a better time-management solution than an office commute.
Now that's I'm 100% WFH, I do that reading on the sofa at home. While I don't know everyone's circumstances, if people can only get the time to do things that they want to do (like reading) as a side-effect of what would be otherwise useless travel time, I feel that there's a better time-management solution than an office commute.
I wish I could read on the sofa but have never been able to, I think it's the accessibility of "other things to do", sets my mind wondering ...
I’ve said this literally for a decade. I am a social person. I love working in person with people. But I hate the commute. So we have a fully remote company.
It’s never been as simple as remote or in office. It’s been about the wasted time on the commute.
It’s never been as simple as remote or in office. It’s been about the wasted time on the commute.
With the trend of open space office and desk hotelling, I don't really like the office either..
I'm not sure that that the commute should count. There are certainly some instances where it should like for the SuperBowl where the works have to travel far offsite, go through screening, and then be bussed on site it should all count (its been to court; it doesn't count).
But in general, I think we've gotten to this situation because cities are happy to add jobs to their area but not housing. How much housing was bundled with any of FANG's HQs developments? Amazon's HQ2 is allegedly 14k workers that's a lot of housing!
But in general, I think we've gotten to this situation because cities are happy to add jobs to their area but not housing. How much housing was bundled with any of FANG's HQs developments? Amazon's HQ2 is allegedly 14k workers that's a lot of housing!
Finally someone who "gets it" (FARHAD MANJOO of NYT)
Commuting (3+ hours per day to/from) is ACTUALLY A 2ND JOB. Along with it is outrageous gas/tolls/tunnels/EZPASS transportation costs (I live in NYC). And let's not forget wear and tear on our car and then the high car repair costs; and the high cost of replacing my car after it's destroyed from all of that daily driving.
call me.
AL DIOVANNI C - 347.525.2501 H - 718.987.8672 [email protected]
Commuting (3+ hours per day to/from) is ACTUALLY A 2ND JOB. Along with it is outrageous gas/tolls/tunnels/EZPASS transportation costs (I live in NYC). And let's not forget wear and tear on our car and then the high car repair costs; and the high cost of replacing my car after it's destroyed from all of that daily driving.
call me.
AL DIOVANNI C - 347.525.2501 H - 718.987.8672 [email protected]
I hate both the office and the commute.
Biking to work was a joy when it didn’t involve risking my life.
Murica stuck in the metal clown box on wheel culture is plagued by obesity and heart health problems. Coincidence? Probably not.
Murica stuck in the metal clown box on wheel culture is plagued by obesity and heart health problems. Coincidence? Probably not.
Honestly, I hate both.
Years ago, I had a job where I loved the commute. Grab a coffee on the way- it was a beautiful commute in the mountains along trees without so many cars.
Years ago, I had a job where I loved the commute. Grab a coffee on the way- it was a beautiful commute in the mountains along trees without so many cars.
When meetings are computer mediated it's easier to moderate meeting participation so meetings don't get dominated by loud-talkers, to automate note-taking, to integrate meeting outcomes into task lists, etc. It's easier to analyze meetings for qualities that are proven to be characteristics of highly productive teams.
This makes people who rely on intimidation, cliques, etc. feel disempowered.
This makes people who rely on intimidation, cliques, etc. feel disempowered.
Well, I hated the office too when it was the loud cacophonous open office. I have a cube now and I'm a lot happier.
People will often move to their commuting limit for more house for their budget. It’s hard to blame business for their employees making that decision. Employees at all levels do this.
No, we hate both.
> “The whole notion of work from home is a bit like the fake Marie Antoinette quote, ‘Let them eat cake,’” Musk told CNBC this week. Factory workers, service workers and construction workers can’t work from home, so why do people in the “laptop classes” think they should be able to do so? “It’s not just a productivity thing,” he said. “I think it’s morally wrong.”
I think that Musk's investments in commercial real estate is clouding his judgement and morality.
I think that Musk's investments in commercial real estate is clouding his judgement and morality.