Electric vehicle battery causes fire at Sydney Airport, destroys five cars(abc.net.au)
abc.net.au
Electric vehicle battery causes fire at Sydney Airport, destroys five cars
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-12/sydney-airport-lithium-ion-battery-causes-fire/102846146
57 comments
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/five-cars-destroyed-at-s...
“There had been some problem with the car and the battery had been removed, we believe that the car has suffered some mechanical damage which can contribute to a battery breaking down and catching fire without notice.
“We don’t have a concern about this broadly, it’s not often that electric cars catch fire.”
“There had been some problem with the car and the battery had been removed, we believe that the car has suffered some mechanical damage which can contribute to a battery breaking down and catching fire without notice.
“We don’t have a concern about this broadly, it’s not often that electric cars catch fire.”
It is probably too early for standardised EV batteries, because we still don't know if there are innovations that will end up being useful but which won't fit whatever standard you come up with.
I'd be more surprised if they didn't. While they are more PITA to steal than cat just because of weight, they are also worth significantly more.
> (I've always thought that EV battery packs should be standardised, with several easy-ish to replace/upgrade modules per car. But if they make up half the value of the vehicle or so, they also need to be very theft-resistant...)
If you're there to steal few hundred kg battery pack you probably have angle grinder with you. Nothing says "no" to angle grinder.
> (I've always thought that EV battery packs should be standardised, with several easy-ish to replace/upgrade modules per car. But if they make up half the value of the vehicle or so, they also need to be very theft-resistant...)
If you're there to steal few hundred kg battery pack you probably have angle grinder with you. Nothing says "no" to angle grinder.
Just do what Apple does and add a BMS that’s coded to the ECU or so. Can be worked around of course but definitely makes it harder.
Battery packs have a lot of innovation in them, its not just a load of batteries lashed together. There's monitoring systems, cooling, balancing. And squeezing more efficiency out of them is very important. So standardisation of EV battery packs is about as likely as having standardised swappable petrol engines.
The internals of the packs can vary over time, so long as they're a standardised size with standardised connections.
Ideally, once a pack is degraded, maybe after a decade, you'll be able to buy less expensive replacements that have more range, or even used packs salvaged from written-off vehicles - rather than scrapping the whole vehicle.
Ideally, once a pack is degraded, maybe after a decade, you'll be able to buy less expensive replacements that have more range, or even used packs salvaged from written-off vehicles - rather than scrapping the whole vehicle.
Was it being transported or worked on I wonder? Evedently without sufficient care!
Why would you standardise something that’s meant to outlast entire car?
Are consumers confident about battery longevity, when most of them have had multiple experiences with phone and laptop batteries being significantly degraded after 2-5 years?
And will that claimed longevity be achieved in all conditions (weather/temperature and usage patterns)? - or only in optimum conditions?
Some internal combustion vehicles are kept running for several decades, with many replacement parts remaining available. But with non-standard battery packs and software locks it seems that EVs may have planned obsolescence built in, which goes entirely against the 'saving the planet' narrative.
And will that claimed longevity be achieved in all conditions (weather/temperature and usage patterns)? - or only in optimum conditions?
Some internal combustion vehicles are kept running for several decades, with many replacement parts remaining available. But with non-standard battery packs and software locks it seems that EVs may have planned obsolescence built in, which goes entirely against the 'saving the planet' narrative.
> phone and laptop batteries being significantly degraded after 2-5 years
Which used to be useful lifetime of tech. We should be kinda gracious that we can now have laptops and phones that last nearly a decade (also kinda disappointing because progress slowed down).
> Some internal combustion vehicles are kept running for several decades
only in places where attention for safety is a joke. other than collectible cars (which btw are now rapidly converted into BEV) these cars are public hazard and would fail yearly safety checks in all progressive countries.
> many replacement parts remaining available
Thats a function of how popular car was. Tesla's parts are already one of the cheapest, there are tons of super specialised mods purely because they are manufacturing millions of cars per year.
> software locks
other than disabling high voltage charging due to safety (which I agree might be a bit much but there for a reason - might be even regulatory) - can you list more examples?
Tesla salvage market is wild. Crashed Teslas by battery salvagers are snapped in auctions by hundreds of participants (in my small country) just purely to use their battery.
> planned obsolescence built in
pop media propaganda. we are at a peak of electronics recycling. companies routinely tout using 100% recycled materials. if you don't plan for obsolescence you are basically planning for pollution.
Which used to be useful lifetime of tech. We should be kinda gracious that we can now have laptops and phones that last nearly a decade (also kinda disappointing because progress slowed down).
> Some internal combustion vehicles are kept running for several decades
only in places where attention for safety is a joke. other than collectible cars (which btw are now rapidly converted into BEV) these cars are public hazard and would fail yearly safety checks in all progressive countries.
> many replacement parts remaining available
Thats a function of how popular car was. Tesla's parts are already one of the cheapest, there are tons of super specialised mods purely because they are manufacturing millions of cars per year.
> software locks
other than disabling high voltage charging due to safety (which I agree might be a bit much but there for a reason - might be even regulatory) - can you list more examples?
Tesla salvage market is wild. Crashed Teslas by battery salvagers are snapped in auctions by hundreds of participants (in my small country) just purely to use their battery.
> planned obsolescence built in
pop media propaganda. we are at a peak of electronics recycling. companies routinely tout using 100% recycled materials. if you don't plan for obsolescence you are basically planning for pollution.
> In cases of a lithium-ion battery fire firefighters will cool down the battery and place it in a container with water to stop re-ignitions
«With water»?! Lithium? I understood that those batteries for EVs are isolated in pools of special materials (according to local maintainers).
Edit: apparently, according to some, water is the way:
https://interestingengineering.com/video/tips-on-fighting-a-...
«With water»?! Lithium? I understood that those batteries for EVs are isolated in pools of special materials (according to local maintainers).
Edit: apparently, according to some, water is the way:
https://interestingengineering.com/video/tips-on-fighting-a-...
There's very little free lithium in lithium-ion batteries - it's usually largely bound (via intercalation) to either the kathode or the anode.
The stuff that starts the fire is the electrolyte - ethylene carbonate.
The stuff that starts the fire is the electrolyte - ethylene carbonate.
What else ? If they are burning it's already too late to stop it, you're just cooling it down and reducing damage to the surrounding at that point.
That's the problem with extinguishing batteries, you're not, you're just limiting the damage.
That's the problem with extinguishing batteries, you're not, you're just limiting the damage.
and I don’t understand why the luxury electric vehicle brand is not disclosed?
none of the news report are disclosing it how come?
The vehicle in the video in the linked article appears to be a MG ZS EV. The wheels are distinctive.
Aren’t those lfp?
Yes, they are CATL's LFP.
Now, I really wish that people would stop saying that LFP can be charge to 100% (without adversely affecting lifespan), or never catch fire. China's LFPs are cheap, inferior batteries. Period. Stop pretending that LFP would last forever or more moral and humane b/c there is no cobalt (China doesn't believe in human rights, either).
Now, I really wish that people would stop saying that LFP can be charge to 100% (without adversely affecting lifespan), or never catch fire. China's LFPs are cheap, inferior batteries. Period. Stop pretending that LFP would last forever or more moral and humane b/c there is no cobalt (China doesn't believe in human rights, either).
Do you have any data to prove otherwise? Anecdotal data from Tesla drivers is extremely good (1-5% degradation over 20k miles vs typical 10%)
Tesla LFP Battery 10% RANGE LOSS PROBLEM? | Model 3 RWD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suw20wPrbL0
I'm pretty sure that anecdotal data would almost always indicate virtually no range loss, but, once you take the red pill, the reality looks quite different.
The brand new LFP batteries will degrade substantially quicker. There's not long-term retention data for LFP batteries on the market yet, but the trend tends to be substantially faster degradation. Trends show them stabilizing around that 10% degradation mark in about half the time as non-LFP batteries - around 50,000 miles instead of 100,000 miles."
I'm pretty sure that anecdotal data would almost always indicate virtually no range loss, but, once you take the red pill, the reality looks quite different.
"I don't know the brand of the vehicle, but I'm pretty sure the manufacturers will have an interest in this," he said.
he doesnt know but then which manufacturer will be interested to know more … seems like brand protection
he doesnt know but then which manufacturer will be interested to know more … seems like brand protection
Any manufacturer would be interested. I think you're reading too much into the quote.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Looks like an MG ZS to me.
because the fire was caused by a detached electric vehicle battery
Yeah, and the cause of the first seems to be related to that (you don't just remove your car's battery and leave it laying around like that) not to the brand of the vehicle... by mentioning the brand, the news site may become liable to legal action as it may be implied they were trying to blame the fire on the manufacturer.
That's how you know it was likely not a Tesla!
Why is this news?
Is every gas car fire reported?
Is it news because electric cars are “new” as in ten years old?
Or is it that the publisher just knows it will get a bunch of clicks from people that don’t like electric stuff?
Is every gas car fire reported?
Is it news because electric cars are “new” as in ten years old?
Or is it that the publisher just knows it will get a bunch of clicks from people that don’t like electric stuff?
They are more dangerous than gas fires and many people do not understand this yet. While it might be 10 years old, most people have not used nor understand many parts of EV's, like regenerative breaking, the lower center of gravity and the dangers of the batteries.
This isn’t an educational article about how to drive an EV. It’s fearmongering about electric vehicles
Disassembled cars on fire at Sydney airport are not a common occurance and are absolutely news. The publisher is an Australian nes site for Australians, who don't really find EVs contraversial.
Are there also articles written when a gar car catches fire though? That is the key question.
Yes: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-04/sydney-airport-bus-gu..., and you can see more fires at Sydney Airport at https://discover.abc.net.au/index.html?siteTitle=news#/?quer...
I'm confused why you think a fire at Sydney Airport (of any cause) wouldn't be news?
I'm confused why you think a fire at Sydney Airport (of any cause) wouldn't be news?
If it was disassembled in the Sydney airport carpark and on fire, yes there would be. The circumstances are unusual enough regardless of power source here.
> Why is this news
You are in a way right: not strictly "«news»", but information (a piece of information) for awareness in a phase in which the general population (and even a greater set) does not have yet a full picture of relatively new technologies.
> ten years old
The term 'radioactivity' was coined by Marie Curie in 1898; use of uranium in dentistry was banned in the USA in 1984. Ten years are not much.
You are in a way right: not strictly "«news»", but information (a piece of information) for awareness in a phase in which the general population (and even a greater set) does not have yet a full picture of relatively new technologies.
> ten years old
The term 'radioactivity' was coined by Marie Curie in 1898; use of uranium in dentistry was banned in the USA in 1984. Ten years are not much.
I said that because the critics would respond with the reason the article was written is because they are “new”. Everyone knows that electricity is “older” and that they actually “came out” much longer ago
Clickbaity title - is there any evidence that EVs go on fire more frequently than ICE cars?
It's not clickbait, it's statement of fact.
"Thing happened" doesn't necessarily need to be qualified.
However something to rememeber about headlines: people report on things which are noteworthy (or aligned with propaganda, but let's stick with the former).
Therefore, things happening that are reported by the news as a singular occurrence are, in reality, relatively rare.
This is why in a place like Coventry (where I am from) there is a really serious amount of crime (violence against people is third highest per capita in the UK) but stabbings never get reported in the newspaper, unless it was a young child or a mother or something else notable.
In London, where crime is significantly lower (violent crime per capita is about 50% of what it is in Coventry), stabbings are reported much more frequently in the news.
That something is reported can be a sign that it's not ubiquitous.
"Thing happened" doesn't necessarily need to be qualified.
However something to rememeber about headlines: people report on things which are noteworthy (or aligned with propaganda, but let's stick with the former).
Therefore, things happening that are reported by the news as a singular occurrence are, in reality, relatively rare.
This is why in a place like Coventry (where I am from) there is a really serious amount of crime (violence against people is third highest per capita in the UK) but stabbings never get reported in the newspaper, unless it was a young child or a mother or something else notable.
In London, where crime is significantly lower (violent crime per capita is about 50% of what it is in Coventry), stabbings are reported much more frequently in the news.
That something is reported can be a sign that it's not ubiquitous.
> This is why in a place like Coventry (where I am from) there is a really serious amount of crime (violence against people is third highest per capita in the UK) but stabbings never get reported in the newspaper, unless it was a young child or a mother or something else notable.
> violent crime per capita is about 50% of what it is in Coventry
Wood End doing most of the heavy lifting there..?
> violent crime per capita is about 50% of what it is in Coventry
Wood End doing most of the heavy lifting there..?
Weird to see people living in my home town here, looks like you're also into security and IRC. I wonder if there's something about the city that causes this. :D
Actually statistically Wood End does not appear more violent than anywhere else: https://crimerate.co.uk/west-midlands/coventry
However... when I was a teenager the police intentionally did not go there on patrol and there was a general tone across the city amongst people of: "don't talk to the police". People would pridefully talk about not being "a grass"[0]- so, those statistics should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Nonetheless, it's obvious that violent crime (even reported) is more rampant than the average and it is rarely commented on in regional or national news. Which I infer is because it is so common and therefore not noteworthy/newsworthy.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergrass_(informant)#:~:text....
Actually statistically Wood End does not appear more violent than anywhere else: https://crimerate.co.uk/west-midlands/coventry
However... when I was a teenager the police intentionally did not go there on patrol and there was a general tone across the city amongst people of: "don't talk to the police". People would pridefully talk about not being "a grass"[0]- so, those statistics should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Nonetheless, it's obvious that violent crime (even reported) is more rampant than the average and it is rarely commented on in regional or national news. Which I infer is because it is so common and therefore not noteworthy/newsworthy.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergrass_(informant)#:~:text....
Not a normal 'EV catches fire' story. This is about an EV battery pack that was for some reason detached from the vehicle. In a car park.
At a major international airport.
Are people trying to steal battery packs now, then? - for what other reason would a detached battery be lying next to vehicles in a car park?
(I've always thought that EV battery packs should be standardised, with several easy-ish to replace/upgrade modules per car. But if they make up half the value of the vehicle or so, they also need to be very theft-resistant...)