Pilots hide mental health problems so they don't lose their licenses(washingtonpost.com)
washingtonpost.com
Pilots hide mental health problems so they don't lose their licenses
https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2023/12/15/pilots-mental-health-faa-certification/
170 comments
I never understood why in some countries the system never forgets - it's like they want to punish you till death, even after you already served your sentence.
In Estonia, no matter how horrific the crime, your record gets wiped after 7 years since you finished serving the sentence (got out of prison / probation ended / paid a fine), allowing for people to move on with their lives.
In Estonia, no matter how horrific the crime, your record gets wiped after 7 years since you finished serving the sentence (got out of prison / probation ended / paid a fine), allowing for people to move on with their lives.
I like the idea of this but wonder if a better system would be record gets wiped after 7 clear years.
So if someone is committing crimes every 3 or 4 years, the previous records show to reflect ongoing behaviour type, but if you have 7 'clear' years then all is wiped.
So if someone is committing crimes every 3 or 4 years, the previous records show to reflect ongoing behaviour type, but if you have 7 'clear' years then all is wiped.
It's 7 years after the punishment ends, which, yeah, if it's been 10-15 years since you've committed a crime, it's unlikely you've somehow been biding your time, waiting to commit the next one.
I think thats how Steam does it :)
After 7 years of no more VAC/game bans the previous ones disappear.
After 7 years of no more VAC/game bans the previous ones disappear.
Nope. I still have my one and only VAC ban on my profile from 4995 days ago, it's not going anywhere :)
Though possibly Valve handles it differently for first party games, this was for Modern Warfare 2.
Though possibly Valve handles it differently for first party games, this was for Modern Warfare 2.
lmao, steam having a better criminal system than US is something that i wasn't expecting ho hear today
gaben for President!
Here in Denmark criminal records becomes inaccessible to non-government actors 2-5 years after sentence served, depending on the severity of the crime, and 10 years for the government/public sector. In theory it's never wiped and keeps being accessible to the Danish Security and Intelligence Service, so it may still affect your ability to get a security clearance.
There is the caveat though that names are allowed to be published in some cases of more severe crime, so in cases like murder an employer might still be able to find out about it with a google search.
There is the caveat though that names are allowed to be published in some cases of more severe crime, so in cases like murder an employer might still be able to find out about it with a google search.
Because it would damage the reputation of the airline if, in a future incident, the media reports that "and record show he had a previous arrest for DWI". The media would spin it to look like the airline took the risk. I'm not defending that take, just explaining it.
The key point is to expunge these old criminal records so no one could find them. Not the media, not a future employer.
Right. Expunged to the point where you could say "No I have never-" on a government form without that being considered a lie.
I looked into getting my record cleaned up/sealed with my attorney and it all just sounded very... expensive.
I looked into getting my record cleaned up/sealed with my attorney and it all just sounded very... expensive.
Not possible for any crime that is reported on by media, surely.
If its online newspapers then in EU we have the "right to be forgotten" which helps with those articles to be removed from search engines.
> which helps
Especially if you’re a corrupt politician, child abuser etc. it’s really helpful for that sort of people. Not so much for everyone else, but why would that ever be an issue?
Especially if you’re a corrupt politician, child abuser etc. it’s really helpful for that sort of people. Not so much for everyone else, but why would that ever be an issue?
I would think that, especially in a everything-online world, this is very useful for regular people. I for sure have removed some links to embarrassing posts I made as a teen, to which I've long lost account access to, to remove manually. And now with everybody's kids being on Tik Tok etc since very early age, I assume it will be used more and more.
If the law is written correct you sue any orinization that digs it up for libel. When those are won they will stop.
So newspapers will be afraid to report on things like that even when it clearly is in the in interest of the society for them to do that?
Criminal records don’t exist just to punish people and penalize them for the rest of their lives but also to inform other what those people are capable of. Expungement should only be possible for non-serious crimes and/or on a case by case basis
Criminal records don’t exist just to punish people and penalize them for the rest of their lives but also to inform other what those people are capable of. Expungement should only be possible for non-serious crimes and/or on a case by case basis
What crimes should be expunged, when it should be done, and how to do it are all debates worth having. There are lots of other details worth debating. However once the crime has been expunged it shouldn't be brought back again - that is the whole point: let people who have reformed get on with their life as best as possible.
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The internet never forgets though. You'd have quite a job deleting all the old reports in the media.
I mentioned in another comment here, but if you are in EU, the "right to be forgotten" makes it quite easy to remove results you do not like about yourself from search engines. Google for example provides a simple form to fill out, and from what i recall in about a month or so those links are gone from results.
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Understandable, but this is precisely why teenage antics should not leave permanent records for anyone to exploit.
Right, and the point is to shape a society where the plebian morons don't have influence on anything of importance, voting being the notable exception.
I know you're not defending the point. I'm just saying.
I know you're not defending the point. I'm just saying.
its an un-solvable problem. the media (going from well before the internet) profits off of outrage.
Even the courts? If someone is convicted of murder, serves their sentence then 8 years later they do it again, do the courts know of the previous crime?
Yes, the courts will know (and possibly also police, I'm not sure). However anyone else will get back a criminal record report that's empty. Like if you need to provide a criminal record for visa purposes, or when an employer requests one, or if a bank wants to decide whether or not to give you mortgage. So it's not that your status as a human being in the eyes of the law are reset, it's that for the purposes of opportunities given to you, you are equal to everyone else.
What about child abusers? People convicted of fraud or other types of corruption? etc. Basically people that never should never be allowed to do certain types of work because it wouldn’t be in the public interest?
I'm not sure, actually. The law doesn't seem to specify, although it does say exceptions can be made, so I figure that's what happens. Estonia has also been known to deport its own citizens when they truly are a menace to our society.
> Estonia has also been known to deport its own citizens when they truly are a menace to our society.
Deport where? Could you please provide us more info?
Deport where? Could you please provide us more info?
Seems pretty reasonable!
I will never forget that scene in los Soprano in which, after a car crash, a character asks another one to just kill him before having to deal with the consequences of his DWI
That's not exactly what happened, he wanted him to get a cab.
Or perhaps it's not about punishment but about protecting the public from potentially irresponsible people. Driving and piloting a plane should be considered privileges that come after training and demonstration of ability and understanding of responsibility. These aren't things that should be rights and considered a punishment to take away.
While possibly still not true, in many places these are actually special crimes that can be never forgotten (driving crimes)... not even true for sex offenses, of the lowest levels.
Suddenly I love Estonia. In North America punishment lasts until on dies.
We have this in Norway as well. The chief of police explained it when someone wanted to change it: "We have a tradition here that the court sentences you, and that's it. When you're done with the court's sentence, you've paid your dues to society." It's a good thing.
And that's also why the newspapers will generally write that "a 27-year old from X" did this and that instead of using a full name. People widely known for a crime by their full name can apply to change their name at some point.
And that's also why the newspapers will generally write that "a 27-year old from X" did this and that instead of using a full name. People widely known for a crime by their full name can apply to change their name at some point.
In California juvenile criminal records get wiped when the person turns 18. You can also petition to get your record expunged. Can be done but not automatic. Easier for minor douchey crimes and unlikely to impossible to serious ones.
It could be worse.
An estimated 1/4 of all registered sex offenders were minors at the time that they became offenders. The single year of your life when you're most likely to become one is 14.
There are a lot of horror stories like a guy whose 13 year old girlfriend send him a nude photo, her parents found out and reported it, and now he can't live within a certain distance of an elementary school for the rest of his life.
Yeah, if a 24 year old man has pictures of a 13 year old, that's a problem. But a 14 year old boy having pictures of a 13 year old girl?
As a society, we really don't believe in forgiveness.
An estimated 1/4 of all registered sex offenders were minors at the time that they became offenders. The single year of your life when you're most likely to become one is 14.
There are a lot of horror stories like a guy whose 13 year old girlfriend send him a nude photo, her parents found out and reported it, and now he can't live within a certain distance of an elementary school for the rest of his life.
Yeah, if a 24 year old man has pictures of a 13 year old, that's a problem. But a 14 year old boy having pictures of a 13 year old girl?
As a society, we really don't believe in forgiveness.
The issue here is not the registered offenders list but that things like this are considered crimes and somebody could be convicted for them.
It’s not about forgiveness, it’s about minimizing future harm. If you are an actual (and there should be a sufficiently high bar for that) convicted child abuser you should never be allowed to be employed in any job which allows you to have authority over children etc. in such cases “forgiveness” would certainly be against the public interest.
It’s not about forgiveness, it’s about minimizing future harm. If you are an actual (and there should be a sufficiently high bar for that) convicted child abuser you should never be allowed to be employed in any job which allows you to have authority over children etc. in such cases “forgiveness” would certainly be against the public interest.
I don't disagree with you. And I don't disagree with you for the simple reason that, according to all evidence, "pedophile" is not a characteristic that people can change. Any more than "gay" is.
But that's not the way that the law is written.
But that's not the way that the law is written.
I don't understand how giving a statistic of the average age of juvenile sex offenders supports your point.
The point is that we, as a society, sometimes punish people severely forever. Even when there is no reason to believe that that person is a risk to society.
They aren't in a category called juvenile sex offenders. They are simply registered sex offenders. For the rest of their lives. Randomly punished forever for doing normal stupid kid things.
https://jlc.org/issues/juvenile-sex-offender-registry-sorna estimates this at about 200,000 unlucky people.
They aren't in a category called juvenile sex offenders. They are simply registered sex offenders. For the rest of their lives. Randomly punished forever for doing normal stupid kid things.
https://jlc.org/issues/juvenile-sex-offender-registry-sorna estimates this at about 200,000 unlucky people.
Not sure this will be helpful but here goes.
I wanted to be a pilot but am tall (> 6 feet) and poor eye sight (< -10).
I was told at a young age that it would be nearly impossible for me. I accepted my fate for better or worse. Yet you have a better chance than me. Hard to say if it’s worth pursuing.
Nevertheless, I sympathize with you because people can make big mistakes and learn from it but the categorization and stigma remains.
Best of luck to you.
I wanted to be a pilot but am tall (> 6 feet) and poor eye sight (< -10).
I was told at a young age that it would be nearly impossible for me. I accepted my fate for better or worse. Yet you have a better chance than me. Hard to say if it’s worth pursuing.
Nevertheless, I sympathize with you because people can make big mistakes and learn from it but the categorization and stigma remains.
Best of luck to you.
I’m curious how these aspects are not considered discriminatory - eyesight is commonly fixed by glasses and height is fixed by not squeezing every last dollar out of floorspace - which I would compare to wheelchair accessible buildings (acknowledging the latter is typically more restrictive due to scale).
I’m not trying to go woke here, there are disabilities that prevent performing certain tasks such as flying (total blindness or colour blindness) but there are others which are easily worked around.
I’m not trying to go woke here, there are disabilities that prevent performing certain tasks such as flying (total blindness or colour blindness) but there are others which are easily worked around.
Corrected vision is not disqualifying for even first class medicals (what’s needed to fly for an airline).
Height or correctable vision can still be disqualifying for military aviators (my vision was disqualifying from flying pointy military jets at the time and might still be).
Height or correctable vision can still be disqualifying for military aviators (my vision was disqualifying from flying pointy military jets at the time and might still be).
In many airplanes, there are legitimate restrictions on how tall you can be as a pilot -- there simply isn't enough room up there for taller pilots to fit.
As for eyesight, I'd imagine it's for the case when the pilot loses/breaks/forgets their glasses. You don't want a pilot who suddenly can't see in midair.
As for eyesight, I'd imagine it's for the case when the pilot loses/breaks/forgets their glasses. You don't want a pilot who suddenly can't see in midair.
> In many airplanes, there are legitimate restrictions on how tall you can be as a pilot -- there simply isn't enough room up there for taller pilots to fit.
Right, but they were designed that way. It was likely known at design time that there was a maximum height.
Standard bathroom stalls won't fit wheelchairs, but that doesn't absolve companies from a duty to provide ones that are.
There are obviously different physical constraints here than bathrooms, but I'd be surprised if there was a physical constraint limiting this.
As for the eyesight, this strikes me as the kind of things copilots and backup glasses are for. Require every pilot with glasses to carry a backup pair in their shirt pocket. Or maybe contacts in and a pair of glasses (turbulence may be an issue with glasses).
I'd be curious if they're equally cautious with people who are diabetic or have cardiac risk factors.
Right, but they were designed that way. It was likely known at design time that there was a maximum height.
Standard bathroom stalls won't fit wheelchairs, but that doesn't absolve companies from a duty to provide ones that are.
There are obviously different physical constraints here than bathrooms, but I'd be surprised if there was a physical constraint limiting this.
As for the eyesight, this strikes me as the kind of things copilots and backup glasses are for. Require every pilot with glasses to carry a backup pair in their shirt pocket. Or maybe contacts in and a pair of glasses (turbulence may be an issue with glasses).
I'd be curious if they're equally cautious with people who are diabetic or have cardiac risk factors.
> Right, but they were designed that way. It was likely known at design time that there was a maximum height.
Airplane cockpits aren't built the way they are for shiggles. Pilots need to be able to reach controls, and if you design a cockpit for fitting people over 6ft tall, it might become unergonomic, if not downright dangerous for shorter pilots. There are actual safety issues at play here.
Similar for eyesight -- yes they can carry a backup, until they forget it. The safest thing is to require pilots to have adequate uncorrected vision, though some are loosening that to allow lenses. Do you want to fly on an airplane where there's a nonzero chance the pilot is effectively incapacitated because he forgot his glasses?
> I'd be curious if they're equally cautious with people who are diabetic or have cardiac risk factors.
To different degrees, but yes, they are. Some airlines will require their pilots to get regular medical checkups.
Airplane cockpits aren't built the way they are for shiggles. Pilots need to be able to reach controls, and if you design a cockpit for fitting people over 6ft tall, it might become unergonomic, if not downright dangerous for shorter pilots. There are actual safety issues at play here.
Similar for eyesight -- yes they can carry a backup, until they forget it. The safest thing is to require pilots to have adequate uncorrected vision, though some are loosening that to allow lenses. Do you want to fly on an airplane where there's a nonzero chance the pilot is effectively incapacitated because he forgot his glasses?
> I'd be curious if they're equally cautious with people who are diabetic or have cardiac risk factors.
To different degrees, but yes, they are. Some airlines will require their pilots to get regular medical checkups.
> Airplane cockpits aren't built the way they are for shiggles. Pilots need to be able to reach controls, and if you design a cockpit for fitting people over 6ft tall, it might become unergonomic, if not downright dangerous for shorter pilots. There are actual safety issues at play here.
If they can build a thin metal tube that can safely ascend and descend 30k feet, I'm pretty sure they can build controls that are ergonomic for people outside of a 6" height span. Of all the issues airplane engineers face, I refuse to believe that adjustable controls are the one hill they can't conquer.
> Similar for eyesight -- yes they can carry a backup, until they forget it.
This is how practically every part of the plane is. There are redundant parts, until maintenance forgets about it. Except here there's a redundancy of a redundancy; the copilot can take over if the other pilot forgot their backup glasses and their contacts broke or whatever.
Just put it on the pre-flight checklist. If it's good enough for the mechanical parts, it should be good enough for an already-redundant piece of human equipment.
> Do you want to fly on an airplane where there's a nonzero chance the pilot is effectively incapacitated because he forgot his glasses?
Every flight you get on has a non-zero chance of a pilot being incapacitated. That's why there are two. Heart attacks, sudden onset of a seizure disorder, bad medication interactions, etc, etc. There are dozens of reasons why a pilot could be incapacitated mid-air.
If my options are a pilot with glasses or a pilot with high blood pressure, I'm taking the glasses. An effectively blind pilot doesn't cause a distraction, and could be helpful to their copilot (doing radio comms, talking to passengers, maybe watching a gauge or two if they squint). A pilot in cardiac arrest is both incapable of helping and distracting.
I wouldn't worry that much about a pilot with glasses. The glasses are unlikely to spontaneously break, if they do they should have backups, if they don't have backups then the copilot takes over like anything else that incapacitates a pilot. Hell, if it really came down to the wire, there's probably a decent chance that one of the passengers on the plane has a prescription close enough to make a shoddy landing.
If they can build a thin metal tube that can safely ascend and descend 30k feet, I'm pretty sure they can build controls that are ergonomic for people outside of a 6" height span. Of all the issues airplane engineers face, I refuse to believe that adjustable controls are the one hill they can't conquer.
> Similar for eyesight -- yes they can carry a backup, until they forget it.
This is how practically every part of the plane is. There are redundant parts, until maintenance forgets about it. Except here there's a redundancy of a redundancy; the copilot can take over if the other pilot forgot their backup glasses and their contacts broke or whatever.
Just put it on the pre-flight checklist. If it's good enough for the mechanical parts, it should be good enough for an already-redundant piece of human equipment.
> Do you want to fly on an airplane where there's a nonzero chance the pilot is effectively incapacitated because he forgot his glasses?
Every flight you get on has a non-zero chance of a pilot being incapacitated. That's why there are two. Heart attacks, sudden onset of a seizure disorder, bad medication interactions, etc, etc. There are dozens of reasons why a pilot could be incapacitated mid-air.
If my options are a pilot with glasses or a pilot with high blood pressure, I'm taking the glasses. An effectively blind pilot doesn't cause a distraction, and could be helpful to their copilot (doing radio comms, talking to passengers, maybe watching a gauge or two if they squint). A pilot in cardiac arrest is both incapable of helping and distracting.
I wouldn't worry that much about a pilot with glasses. The glasses are unlikely to spontaneously break, if they do they should have backups, if they don't have backups then the copilot takes over like anything else that incapacitates a pilot. Hell, if it really came down to the wire, there's probably a decent chance that one of the passengers on the plane has a prescription close enough to make a shoddy landing.
> If they can build a thin metal tube that can safely ascend and descend 30k feet, I'm pretty sure they can build controls that are ergonomic for people outside of a 6" height span. Of all the issues airplane engineers face, I refuse to believe that adjustable controls are the one hill they can't conquer.
How many accidents have there been before we figured out the edge cases with doing this? How many planes _still_ crash due to metal fatigue from pressurization cycles? How many souls are you willing to sacrifice for adjustable controls?
> This is how practically every part of the plane is. There are redundant parts, until maintenance forgets about it.
And just like when maintenance forgets it and there's an incident, it's a big deal. Why accept that risk when there's an easy way to avoid it, especially with potentially hundreds of souls onboard?
> Except here there's a redundancy of a redundancy; the copilot can take over if the other pilot forgot their backup glasses and their contacts broke or whatever.
A copilot is not a redundancy, they're a partial backup. Usually the pilot/copilot split responsibilities. If you push all that onto one person, there are some tasks that they will be less efficient at, if not incapable of performing at all. Yes, most modern airlines can probably be successfully flown by just one pilot, but that pilot is going to have an increased cognitive load to deal with which may reduce their efficiency. In an emergency situation, this can especially be dangerous.
The mantra is "aviate, navigate, communicate" -- when those are split up between two pilots, all three can be accomplished at the same time. When you only have one pilot, something ends up suffering. Hopefully it's just the 'communicate' aspect, but we know in reality it's most often all three that suffer.
Plus the copilot is a human too. Most humans will be a little distracted if the guy they were were working with for the last few hours suddenly died or had a debilitating injury next to them.
> Just put it on the pre-flight checklist. If it's good enough for the mechanical parts, it should be good enough for an already-redundant piece of human equipment.
You'd also need to ensure that the glasses are in good working order, are still the correct prescription..etc. It would not be as simple as 'make sure pilot has extra pair of glasses'.
> If my options are a pilot with glasses or a pilot with high blood pressure, I'm taking the glasses. An effectively blind pilot doesn't cause a distraction, and could be helpful to their copilot (doing radio comms, talking to passengers, maybe watching a gauge or two if they squint). A pilot in cardiac arrest is both incapable of helping and distracting.
Which is incidentally why a lot of pilots are checked for the latter as well. Airlines definitely do require physical checkups for pilots, and that includes cardiovascular health.
> I wouldn't worry that much about a pilot with glasses. The glasses are unlikely to spontaneously break, if they do they should have backups, if they don't have backups then the copilot takes over like anything else that incapacitates a pilot. Hell, if it really came down to the wire, there's probably a decent chance that one of the passengers on the plane has a prescription close enough to make a shoddy landing.
Many, many aviation safety regulations are for edge cases that were written and proved in blood. You do not want your aviation safety regulations to be the equivalent of an italian mechanic going "itsa good!"
How many accidents have there been before we figured out the edge cases with doing this? How many planes _still_ crash due to metal fatigue from pressurization cycles? How many souls are you willing to sacrifice for adjustable controls?
> This is how practically every part of the plane is. There are redundant parts, until maintenance forgets about it.
And just like when maintenance forgets it and there's an incident, it's a big deal. Why accept that risk when there's an easy way to avoid it, especially with potentially hundreds of souls onboard?
> Except here there's a redundancy of a redundancy; the copilot can take over if the other pilot forgot their backup glasses and their contacts broke or whatever.
A copilot is not a redundancy, they're a partial backup. Usually the pilot/copilot split responsibilities. If you push all that onto one person, there are some tasks that they will be less efficient at, if not incapable of performing at all. Yes, most modern airlines can probably be successfully flown by just one pilot, but that pilot is going to have an increased cognitive load to deal with which may reduce their efficiency. In an emergency situation, this can especially be dangerous.
The mantra is "aviate, navigate, communicate" -- when those are split up between two pilots, all three can be accomplished at the same time. When you only have one pilot, something ends up suffering. Hopefully it's just the 'communicate' aspect, but we know in reality it's most often all three that suffer.
Plus the copilot is a human too. Most humans will be a little distracted if the guy they were were working with for the last few hours suddenly died or had a debilitating injury next to them.
> Just put it on the pre-flight checklist. If it's good enough for the mechanical parts, it should be good enough for an already-redundant piece of human equipment.
You'd also need to ensure that the glasses are in good working order, are still the correct prescription..etc. It would not be as simple as 'make sure pilot has extra pair of glasses'.
> If my options are a pilot with glasses or a pilot with high blood pressure, I'm taking the glasses. An effectively blind pilot doesn't cause a distraction, and could be helpful to their copilot (doing radio comms, talking to passengers, maybe watching a gauge or two if they squint). A pilot in cardiac arrest is both incapable of helping and distracting.
Which is incidentally why a lot of pilots are checked for the latter as well. Airlines definitely do require physical checkups for pilots, and that includes cardiovascular health.
> I wouldn't worry that much about a pilot with glasses. The glasses are unlikely to spontaneously break, if they do they should have backups, if they don't have backups then the copilot takes over like anything else that incapacitates a pilot. Hell, if it really came down to the wire, there's probably a decent chance that one of the passengers on the plane has a prescription close enough to make a shoddy landing.
Many, many aviation safety regulations are for edge cases that were written and proved in blood. You do not want your aviation safety regulations to be the equivalent of an italian mechanic going "itsa good!"
I don't know about Type II but Type I can be extremely limiting. A friend's spouse was diagnosed somewhere between 9 and 12 and it completely ended their dream of becoming a military aviator (also hoped to be an astronaut).
They now work at NASA but have had to fight tooth and nail to go on longer expeditions related to search and rescue and it's really only the advent of CGM that have made it possible, to be honest.
Found this as well after a quick Google search; the first medical approval of someone with Type 1 Diabetes by the FAA was 2020: https://beyondtype1.org/commercial-pilot-diabetes/
They now work at NASA but have had to fight tooth and nail to go on longer expeditions related to search and rescue and it's really only the advent of CGM that have made it possible, to be honest.
Found this as well after a quick Google search; the first medical approval of someone with Type 1 Diabetes by the FAA was 2020: https://beyondtype1.org/commercial-pilot-diabetes/
Thanks for the link, that was an interesting read. As a T1 I'd say this disease should bar you from a license to fly passengers. An emergency situation in the air can go on for hours, and you don't want diabetes creating extra issues. The pilot has an additional "aviate navigate communicate" thread running but for their diabetes.
On the other hand, I do tell people that a well managed diabetes still lets you do most anything, so I'll reflect on the commercial flying where I think one shouldn't.
On the other hand, I do tell people that a well managed diabetes still lets you do most anything, so I'll reflect on the commercial flying where I think one shouldn't.
> As for the eyesight, this strikes me as the kind of things copilots and backup glasses are for.
Why take any unnecessary risks at all? If you can’t have your eyesight repaired surgical well… tough luck there are many other careers you can pursue.
> they're equally cautious with people who are diabetic or have cardiac risk factors
Yes of course they are. Which again seems perfectly reasonable
Why take any unnecessary risks at all? If you can’t have your eyesight repaired surgical well… tough luck there are many other careers you can pursue.
> they're equally cautious with people who are diabetic or have cardiac risk factors
Yes of course they are. Which again seems perfectly reasonable
> there simply isn't enough room up there for taller pilots to fit.
Under the ADA "there simply isn't a wheelchair ramp up to our building" isn't a legitimate restriction on hiring someone who uses a wheelchair—you put a wheelchair ramp in.
OP's point is that arguably the same should apply to other traits like height. The space constraints are somewhat arbitrary and could be remedied.
Under the ADA "there simply isn't a wheelchair ramp up to our building" isn't a legitimate restriction on hiring someone who uses a wheelchair—you put a wheelchair ramp in.
OP's point is that arguably the same should apply to other traits like height. The space constraints are somewhat arbitrary and could be remedied.
That's not correct. The ADA requires reasonable accommodation, not accommodation at all costs. So yes, "there simply isn't a wheelchair ramp up to our building" is not legitimate, but "there simply isn't a wheelchair ramp up to our building and it would be prohibitively expensive or impossible to change that" does work.
But if you keep getting new buildings made for you where it would be straightforward to build in but prohibitively expensive after the fact...
The ADA doesn't allow new buildings to not comply, unless the job itself couldn't be done. Thus the roof can be not accessable, but only maintanence goes there and job has many parts that cannot be done in a wheelchair
Which is irrelevant to the discussion for the most part.
It doesn't seem irrelevant to me. It means there's a broken system and the regulations aren't hitting the right spot. Responsibility is being split in a way that allows the accomodation to never happen.
It's irrelevant because it has no relation to what ADA says about accommodations being made. Even if the ADA proscribed that new constructions had to have reasonable accommodations, it wouldn't really change anything about the fact that the ADA doesn't mandate accommodations in all circumstances, reasonable or not.
Failures of the ADA model aren't relevant to the ADA??
Please explain how the fact that the ADA only requires reasonable accommodations is a failure of the ADA model? It's just a model. You're talking about it's implementation and practice in the world, I am just correcting a common misconception about what the ADA actually requires as it currently exists.
That's not a legitimate reason for airlines. They keep ordering cockpits without an extra couple inches on purpose.
And there's a ton of ways a pilot can become incapacitated. Having an extra pair of glasses is one of the easiest mitigations around, if the odds are actually that bad.
And there's a ton of ways a pilot can become incapacitated. Having an extra pair of glasses is one of the easiest mitigations around, if the odds are actually that bad.
They don’t order cockpits. That’s not how the industry works.
It’s also not about “enough space” in the entire cockpit, it’s about the layouts of all of the controls and being able to reach them.
“Extra pair of glasses” is not a solution in severe turbulence where the plane drops 100ft in 1 second.
It’s also not about “enough space” in the entire cockpit, it’s about the layouts of all of the controls and being able to reach them.
“Extra pair of glasses” is not a solution in severe turbulence where the plane drops 100ft in 1 second.
Planes can be customized, and the baseline design is based on what the majority of airlines want.
It's the fault of airlines. Nitpicking is fine if you want to add more details but doesn't change that.
And taller people on average can reach more controls, not less.
For glasses, how often does that make them come off compared to any other random reason for incapacitation? And what if there's a strap trying to keep them on? Acting like this is the only risk factor in isolation is bad.
It's the fault of airlines. Nitpicking is fine if you want to add more details but doesn't change that.
And taller people on average can reach more controls, not less.
For glasses, how often does that make them come off compared to any other random reason for incapacitation? And what if there's a strap trying to keep them on? Acting like this is the only risk factor in isolation is bad.
There's plenty of scope for customization, but generally not in changing the shape of the cockpit.
Airliners are good at fitting 99%+ of the population well. But, in the end, airliner cockpits have switches and indicators up "high" and stuff down low that has to be easily within reach, but also not crowd your movement. There's a lot of adjustability, but adjustability (seat rails, etc) has been causes of accidents.
If you're within 5'2 to 6'3, odds are you can easily clamber in, fit, reach all the controls. That's all that's required. Even if you're outside of that range it might be OK (there is a 4'11 787 captain out there...)
As to glasses, there's no problem with having poor vision if it can be corrected with lenses. Aviation is not perfectly inclusive or accommodating of every disability, but it's not needlessly restrictive, either.
Airliners are good at fitting 99%+ of the population well. But, in the end, airliner cockpits have switches and indicators up "high" and stuff down low that has to be easily within reach, but also not crowd your movement. There's a lot of adjustability, but adjustability (seat rails, etc) has been causes of accidents.
If you're within 5'2 to 6'3, odds are you can easily clamber in, fit, reach all the controls. That's all that's required. Even if you're outside of that range it might be OK (there is a 4'11 787 captain out there...)
As to glasses, there's no problem with having poor vision if it can be corrected with lenses. Aviation is not perfectly inclusive or accommodating of every disability, but it's not needlessly restrictive, either.
Just because it was built that way doesn’t mean it’s not discriminatory. An aircraft being half a foot larger wouldn’t have been a big deal if they were built to accomodate tall people in the first place. 6’2 is not an uncommon height.
I am 6’4 and I am baffled by that argument. Not being “discriminatory” against pilot height is not the most important design choice in an airplane.
What about a 7 feet tall person? Would it also be “discriminatory” if they can’t be a pilot?
How difficult is an extra foot? People only get so tall.
But there is a pretty big difference between accommodating 93 percentile for men and 99.96 percentile, and that's only 5 inches in height between 6'1" and 6'6".
But there is a pretty big difference between accommodating 93 percentile for men and 99.96 percentile, and that's only 5 inches in height between 6'1" and 6'6".
I think if you're in the 99.96 percentile for low height in women, that additional foot would be pretty difficult. You'd have a very hard time reaching all of the controls, and it's not like you can stand up to do so.
It's definitely harder to compensate for having a shorter reach. But it's not a competition. You don't need to put controls further apart to allow a taller person to fit, you can make it happen with chair adjustments.
> need to put controls further apart to allow a taller
You know that how exactly?
Maybe that the case but if it’s not maximizing safety and minimizing failure risk (so by extension any unnecessary complexity) should be prioritized over any accessibility concerns under any circumstances
You know that how exactly?
Maybe that the case but if it’s not maximizing safety and minimizing failure risk (so by extension any unnecessary complexity) should be prioritized over any accessibility concerns under any circumstances
Half a foot larger in what way? Length won't help much. Height? Then you're adding _a lot_ of additional weight because you have to increase the radius of the fuselage.
Big commercial planes do not have their radius defined by the seats and controls in the cockpit. It would not need to increase.
Or you shift the cockpit back
The Army will still let you fly helicopters if you're too tall for the Airforce.
eyesight for pilots is commonly fixed with Lasik.
I feel bad for you. I'm sorry to hear that. I appreciate your comment. I do have excellent eye sight and am of average height.
I've wondered if flying private would be any different. I don't "NEED" to work for AA.
I've wondered if flying private would be any different. I don't "NEED" to work for AA.
Interesting. Anecdotally, I think I saw plenty of 6ft captains on my way out of the airplane.
For what it's worth, I'm only an enthusiast but would be surprised to hear either of those are significant issues, unless you're saying that your corrected eyesight is also poor.
Not an airline pilot / medical examiner, but I do read r/flying quite regularly.
Your story is not uncommon. The general wisdom on DWIs is that yes it does hurt your chances of getting into airlines, but if it was (1) minor/borderline, (2) a long time ago, and (3) you have shown a pattern of recovery, it is not a career ender.
Your story is not uncommon. The general wisdom on DWIs is that yes it does hurt your chances of getting into airlines, but if it was (1) minor/borderline, (2) a long time ago, and (3) you have shown a pattern of recovery, it is not a career ender.
I am still going to go through the motions and earn my hours, criminal history be damned. I was under .15 at the time, which as I understand it, helps me significantly.
Also looking at helicopter/flight medic but for now I am starting back to school in January to finish my AAS in Cybersecurity followed by BS in CS.
Also looking at helicopter/flight medic but for now I am starting back to school in January to finish my AAS in Cybersecurity followed by BS in CS.
You've "been told?" Don't take it as gospel. Move forward and get your license. At the very least, you'll be able to take satisfaction in having achieved something most people haven't.
https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/DUIDWI_Alcohol_Incidents...
You can call AMAS (Aviation Medicine Advisory Service) for an opinion.
But ultimately you'll discuss your situation with an AME when applying for a medical certificate, including whether you're best off with 3rd class now and 1st class later. Or just aiming for 1st class right away.
You can call AMAS (Aviation Medicine Advisory Service) for an opinion.
But ultimately you'll discuss your situation with an AME when applying for a medical certificate, including whether you're best off with 3rd class now and 1st class later. Or just aiming for 1st class right away.
It’s hard to say what the policies of the majors will be 5 years from now when you’re ready, but Delta’s current policy is “no DUI in the past 10 years”.
I think the structure of the pilot market is such that tightening of voluntary restrictions is unlikely.
I think the structure of the pilot market is such that tightening of voluntary restrictions is unlikely.
That's promising, thank you.
The article The Madness in our Methods: The crash of Germanwings flight 9525 and our broken aeromedical system covers this topic excellently.
https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-madness-in-our-metho...
https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-madness-in-our-metho...
> the doctors at Lufthansa’s aeromedical center denied his application on account of his ongoing major depression and medication thereof
>the only solution was to ease off the medication
> With help from his psychiatrist, Lubitz was eventually able to end treatment, and in July 2009 he was declared fully recovered.
> After applying again, the Lufthansa aeromedical center decided to issue him a new medical certificate, but with strings attached: if he ever again suffered from depression, the document said, the certificate would immediately become invalid.
Amazing. They basically got a severely depressed patient off his medication and told him they would ruin his childhood dream of flying should he ever suffer and seek treatment again. And then allowed him to fly a plane.
>the only solution was to ease off the medication
> With help from his psychiatrist, Lubitz was eventually able to end treatment, and in July 2009 he was declared fully recovered.
> After applying again, the Lufthansa aeromedical center decided to issue him a new medical certificate, but with strings attached: if he ever again suffered from depression, the document said, the certificate would immediately become invalid.
Amazing. They basically got a severely depressed patient off his medication and told him they would ruin his childhood dream of flying should he ever suffer and seek treatment again. And then allowed him to fly a plane.
The article doesn't cover another facet of the FAA/mental health puzzle: ADHD.
There's a whole generation of students that got diagnoses and/or medication in their younger years. Having any of that in your medical record puts you in the same category as the pilots mentioned in this article. Even if you've been off the Adderall for years, it's a mandatory psych eval and cognitive testing. Thousands of dollars in testing and a long wait for an FAA decision.
There's been some recent changes, including a new "fast track" to approval if you've been off meds for four years or longer. But there's still paperwork. And the decision is far from guaranteed.
There's a whole generation of students that got diagnoses and/or medication in their younger years. Having any of that in your medical record puts you in the same category as the pilots mentioned in this article. Even if you've been off the Adderall for years, it's a mandatory psych eval and cognitive testing. Thousands of dollars in testing and a long wait for an FAA decision.
There's been some recent changes, including a new "fast track" to approval if you've been off meds for four years or longer. But there's still paperwork. And the decision is far from guaranteed.
I just chatted with someone two days ago that has been trying to get through the medical process for five years. No details on her case but seriously, the FAA’s 1950’s stance on health is pretty ridiculous. That pilots have had to spend 10s of thousands of dollars just to be cleared, and that this is even expected by this point, is just dumb.
The cognitive screening process is long. It can take an entire day to complete with multiple personality interviews, computerized tests that strain your processing and reaction time, and a whole slew of other memory and attention tasks. It's a lot for anyone, and putting teenagers through it is cruel.
Apparently the FAA is acutely aware of this, in light of a growing shortage of pilots in the pipeline and huge demand from the airlines. It would be more reasonable to use the recommendations of your local CFI and flight school to decide if you have the cognitive skills to fly solo, compared to a neuropsychologist sitting in an office. Hopefully this begins to change soon.
What's really ironic is that once you've passed the certification and are sitting in the cockpit, you can have all the caffeine you want. But time-release ADHD medications are a no-no.
Apparently the FAA is acutely aware of this, in light of a growing shortage of pilots in the pipeline and huge demand from the airlines. It would be more reasonable to use the recommendations of your local CFI and flight school to decide if you have the cognitive skills to fly solo, compared to a neuropsychologist sitting in an office. Hopefully this begins to change soon.
What's really ironic is that once you've passed the certification and are sitting in the cockpit, you can have all the caffeine you want. But time-release ADHD medications are a no-no.
In my case, I have to hide the fact I seek treatment for mental health to avoid being denied registration to practice law as a solicitor. While it is not an absolute ground to reject registration, declaring that I have mental health issue would require me to produce medical certificate that I was treated with one, even though it's no longer relevant to present situation
Conversely, I have to declare the fact I was treated for medical health at specific military hospital to obtain medical certificate to be presented at the drafting installations. I have to do this for three years until they decided not to bother drafting me and certified that I participated in the draft, but not fit to be one
I still seek mental treatment on a quarterly basis, though with myself going freelance, I no longer have to worry that my treatment will be detrimental to employment and work
Conversely, I have to declare the fact I was treated for medical health at specific military hospital to obtain medical certificate to be presented at the drafting installations. I have to do this for three years until they decided not to bother drafting me and certified that I participated in the draft, but not fit to be one
I still seek mental treatment on a quarterly basis, though with myself going freelance, I no longer have to worry that my treatment will be detrimental to employment and work
In the US, mental problems aren’t an automatic disqualifiet to sitting for the bar, but being evasive with the bar investigators usually is.
The silent stigma surrounding mental health means just about everyone hides their issues from their employer in America anyway.
The book Healing: Our Path from Mental Illness to Mental Health is a good read along these lines.
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Stigma? Have you been on social media? Mental health disorders are fucking celebrated.
Social media is an echo chamber for people with nothing better to do that represents a tiny part of population. In real world many industries would gladly disqualify professionals from working at the first hint of screws flying loose. Especially where any threat to safety have high potential to be fatal.
I haven’t been on mainstream social media in awhile but it makes me happy to hear there’s such low stigma there. I can only assume this comes from a younger generation of people who have had to deal with unfathomable mental health issues from being raised in the internet era.
They are "celebrated" despite the stigma. Also, it's not really celebrated as much as it is accepted and acknowledged.
The site we're on is social media
Because the systems are optimizing to avoid political fallout / cover your ass, not best "real world" results. Because that's what the system is about. That's the game rules. It's like saying "human centric AI, twinkle in the eye" and firing everyone over time because the system doesn't actually have a single parameter that would make it's actors optimize for the common good.
I was grounded by the FAA over a mental health history. I can understand why pilots would say nothing.
This is terrible for everyone involved.
I have zero idea what the solution is.
[Edit]
After a little thought, honestly, automate the whole thing. Yes it removes an entire industry, but progress?
I have zero idea what the solution is.
[Edit]
After a little thought, honestly, automate the whole thing. Yes it removes an entire industry, but progress?
Have pilots be able to seek help and not affect their ability to fly after recovery. Have planes equipped with remote control that can override pilots in extreme situations. Have cameras inside the cockpit and cabin stream live alongside all the data otherwise recorded in black box using the LEO. The latter is being already discussed anyway.
A lot of recent developments made things possible that were previously outrageous. Pilots will be reduced to mere backup, and eventually completely replaced by autonomous systems, just like the train engineers do nowadays, with the only pilots working remotely in command centers ready to take over if needed.
If we can do remote surgeries using robots, there’s no reason this couldn’t be a thing.
A lot of recent developments made things possible that were previously outrageous. Pilots will be reduced to mere backup, and eventually completely replaced by autonomous systems, just like the train engineers do nowadays, with the only pilots working remotely in command centers ready to take over if needed.
If we can do remote surgeries using robots, there’s no reason this couldn’t be a thing.
> Have planes equipped with remote control that can override pilots in extreme situations.
TBH that would cause way many problems than it potentially could solve, not even mentioning the technical difficulties to implement.
Though I agree with the rest, there should be a solution.
TBH that would cause way many problems than it potentially could solve, not even mentioning the technical difficulties to implement.
Though I agree with the rest, there should be a solution.
Have you used airplane internet? It’s awful. Only the military has the capability to remotely control a plane right now.
Not to directly speak on the feasibility of that plan, but the plane Internet will get a lot better if you kick off everyone else and otherwise put it into emergency mode.
Have you used LEO Internet, the one I specifically mentioned? It’s great.
> If we can do remote surgeries using robots, there’s no reason this couldn’t be a thing.
Such operations are gimmicks; the reality is that there has to be a surgeon present who is capable of doing the operation themselves.
Such operations are gimmicks; the reality is that there has to be a surgeon present who is capable of doing the operation themselves.
That's the real issue then. Nothing would stimulate automation faster than suicidal pilots.
The pilots union (and by extension airlines) need to establish a pension/insurance category for this eventuality imo.
We need pilots with mental health issues to seek treatment for the safety of themselves and more importantly passengers. The mental health issue may be resistant to treatment or otherwise disqualify them from flying in the near or long term. When that happens, they lose their career.
A robust system for handling this eventuality, much like getting injured on the job, needs to be put in place.
We need pilots with mental health issues to seek treatment for the safety of themselves and more importantly passengers. The mental health issue may be resistant to treatment or otherwise disqualify them from flying in the near or long term. When that happens, they lose their career.
A robust system for handling this eventuality, much like getting injured on the job, needs to be put in place.
Easy - make mental health non-reportable to the aviation authorities. Instead, the shrink can report if they think there is an issue to public safety, as they would currently do for patients at risk of harming the public.
The problem is people think that any 'solution' to this problem needs to be perfect. "What if we never find out this guy was a problem" comes up. No. You just need to make the next system net _better_. Don't delay forward progress because the next step isn't "perfect".
The problem is people think that any 'solution' to this problem needs to be perfect. "What if we never find out this guy was a problem" comes up. No. You just need to make the next system net _better_. Don't delay forward progress because the next step isn't "perfect".
Would that really solve much? If the concern is pilots are not being honest to save their jobs - it seems like they would still not be honest to a therapist if they were considering self harm. I'm sure it would just take one story of a therapist being overly cautious and reporting someone having benign issues for it to convince pilots not to talk to therapists.
It would solve the problem of "pilot needs someone to talk to about their issues with their wife", which is nice. But don't know if it solves the larger issue being discussed.
It would solve the problem of "pilot needs someone to talk to about their issues with their wife", which is nice. But don't know if it solves the larger issue being discussed.
> make mental health non-reportable to the aviation authorities. Instead, the shrink can report if they think there is an issue to public safety, as they would currently do for patients at risk of harming the public.
Put yourself in a pilot's shoes. Would you attend sessions if there was ANY chance of you not being able to fly? Would others? It's optional and your entire career hinges on not being grounded once. That's you, your family, and anyone else who depends on your income.
The perception of this solution is still the same as the current one - I can be grounded.
Initially it might work, but once that first guy gets grounded via the program (or maybe a few), word gets out that's what this system ends up doing - you're right back here wondering what the solution was that was so easy.
Put yourself in a pilot's shoes. Would you attend sessions if there was ANY chance of you not being able to fly? Would others? It's optional and your entire career hinges on not being grounded once. That's you, your family, and anyone else who depends on your income.
The perception of this solution is still the same as the current one - I can be grounded.
Initially it might work, but once that first guy gets grounded via the program (or maybe a few), word gets out that's what this system ends up doing - you're right back here wondering what the solution was that was so easy.
I have a solution: pass a law that if any pilot gets grounded for mental health issues, then the airline industry (as a whole, in case his airline goes belly-up) has to continue to pay that pilot's salary until he retires.
This protects the pilot pretty well, but this leaves the airline open to some pretty crazy fraud, no?
Isn't this how it's handled in other countries when someone can't work due to medical issues? Surely they have some way of discouraging fraud, probably by making the doctor responsible or perhaps requiring multiple doctors to cross-check.
It happens in the US for worker's comp, but that's if you lose an arm. Pretty hard to fake that.
Mental health, "relatively easy" to fake esp if there's a lot of money waiting for you on the other-side if you get it right.
Mental health, "relatively easy" to fake esp if there's a lot of money waiting for you on the other-side if you get it right.
The famous Germanwings murder-suicide had some of this in play -- the pilot's doctor had given him a letter excusing him from work, due to a probable psychotic episode, but the pilot chose not to share the letter with the airline and the doctor was forbidden by law from sharing it.
Not to draw seriously messed up parallels:
I frequently get in arguments with my extended family because I believe pedophiles and criminals have rights. I talk about the documented history of innocent people being convicted of a crimes, but there are many guilty offenders. I want prison conditions to be better, and I use it as an example of "if you care about human rights, you care about them for everyone. Even convicted rapists and murderers." Sometimes I go off on another tangent because we should care about rights for immigrants as well. :) Then I lead into a 2nd bit where I say, "There are many pedophiles out there. People who have the tendencies, and people who have acted. We know that women who are pedophiles go under or un-reported." To treat some of this, we need mental health facilities available even for people we find disgusting and monstrous. We need a safe environment where they can go in anonymously and seek help. It may prevent someone who is just thinking about children from touching a child. Most people would rather just execute a SUSPECTED pedophile. That's how you get someone to hate themselves and the world and children and act on their impulses. Make the stigma and the reality for them worse. We love doing it in prisons. We love making prisoners suffer as a society.
So to draw the awful parallel: We need mental health facilities available for pilots with no ability to report-out on how many are effected. We need to ensure anonymity, and provide resources with no idea of how well they may be helping someone on the edge. Maybe loose/aggregate data points can be reported, but my strongest emphasis would be on providing anonymous support that is always and frequently available.
If you care about pilots and the passengers they ensure safety for, you need to extend the resources with no indication of how effective that is. You want them to receive care/treatment, for what very well could be a moments' ailment. If there is a long-term issue, it may help them with coping strategies. The alternative is letting it go untreated, and putting others at risk.
I frequently get in arguments with my extended family because I believe pedophiles and criminals have rights. I talk about the documented history of innocent people being convicted of a crimes, but there are many guilty offenders. I want prison conditions to be better, and I use it as an example of "if you care about human rights, you care about them for everyone. Even convicted rapists and murderers." Sometimes I go off on another tangent because we should care about rights for immigrants as well. :) Then I lead into a 2nd bit where I say, "There are many pedophiles out there. People who have the tendencies, and people who have acted. We know that women who are pedophiles go under or un-reported." To treat some of this, we need mental health facilities available even for people we find disgusting and monstrous. We need a safe environment where they can go in anonymously and seek help. It may prevent someone who is just thinking about children from touching a child. Most people would rather just execute a SUSPECTED pedophile. That's how you get someone to hate themselves and the world and children and act on their impulses. Make the stigma and the reality for them worse. We love doing it in prisons. We love making prisoners suffer as a society.
So to draw the awful parallel: We need mental health facilities available for pilots with no ability to report-out on how many are effected. We need to ensure anonymity, and provide resources with no idea of how well they may be helping someone on the edge. Maybe loose/aggregate data points can be reported, but my strongest emphasis would be on providing anonymous support that is always and frequently available.
If you care about pilots and the passengers they ensure safety for, you need to extend the resources with no indication of how effective that is. You want them to receive care/treatment, for what very well could be a moments' ailment. If there is a long-term issue, it may help them with coping strategies. The alternative is letting it go untreated, and putting others at risk.
The solution is to support these people if they are unable to work so that they don’t have to fear for their livelihood if they come down sick.
If the expectation is for people who are sick to further worsen their condition by becoming unemployed and discard themselves then the system is broken - simple as.
If the expectation is for people who are sick to further worsen their condition by becoming unemployed and discard themselves then the system is broken - simple as.
A completely natural and expected outcome. “Hey, you feeling depressed? Let’s take your livelihood away if you dare seek help.”
I don’t have a better solution, but I also don’t really think it’s a big problem to begin with. The vast, vast majority of suicidal people still won’t take hundreds of others with them. They jump off buildings or shoot themselves or swallow a fistful of pills.
If I was a pilot, you bet your ass I’m going to hide any mental struggles I’m having from the FAA.
Now, I suppose if I had persistent and intrusive thoughts of darting my plane into a mountainside, I’d hopefully—during a moment of clarity—remove myself from any position that would enable me to carry that out.
But for “run-of-the-mill” depression? That’s my business. I can still perform the job.
How many pilots have intentionally crashed their planes for mental health reasons? The only one that comes to mind is that Germanwings pilot a few years ago. (EDIT: Apologies if the article answers this. I can’t see behind the paywall)
I don’t have a better solution, but I also don’t really think it’s a big problem to begin with. The vast, vast majority of suicidal people still won’t take hundreds of others with them. They jump off buildings or shoot themselves or swallow a fistful of pills.
If I was a pilot, you bet your ass I’m going to hide any mental struggles I’m having from the FAA.
Now, I suppose if I had persistent and intrusive thoughts of darting my plane into a mountainside, I’d hopefully—during a moment of clarity—remove myself from any position that would enable me to carry that out.
But for “run-of-the-mill” depression? That’s my business. I can still perform the job.
How many pilots have intentionally crashed their planes for mental health reasons? The only one that comes to mind is that Germanwings pilot a few years ago. (EDIT: Apologies if the article answers this. I can’t see behind the paywall)
> If I was a pilot, you bet your ass I’m going to hide any mental struggles I’m having from the FAA.
There's an additional problem here: if you have depression, you can bet your ass you're going to hide your mental struggles.
Thus we don't know if the pilots interviewed in the article are a) not coming forward with their mental struggles because of the policy, or b) are using the policy as an excuse not to come forward with their mental struggles.
(Coming from first-hand experience with a pilot who used the policy as an excuse not to get help with their mental struggles. E.g., after the person was no longer a pilot they still did not get help with their mental struggles.)
There's an additional problem here: if you have depression, you can bet your ass you're going to hide your mental struggles.
Thus we don't know if the pilots interviewed in the article are a) not coming forward with their mental struggles because of the policy, or b) are using the policy as an excuse not to come forward with their mental struggles.
(Coming from first-hand experience with a pilot who used the policy as an excuse not to get help with their mental struggles. E.g., after the person was no longer a pilot they still did not get help with their mental struggles.)
> How many pilots have intentionally crashed their planes for mental health reasons? The only one that comes to mind is that Germanwings pilot a few years ago.
This one comes to mind for me, although not technically a pilot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Horizon_Air_Q400_incident
This one comes to mind for me, although not technically a pilot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Horizon_Air_Q400_incident
An Alaska mechanic stole a small jet and intentionally crashed it and killed himself.
China Eastern 5735 was suspected to have gone down due to pilot suicide, but the media rarely talks anything about it even after a year. Maybe future report might tell.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Eastern_Airlines_Fligh...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Eastern_Airlines_Fligh...
Agree with the sentiment (and have no better solutions either) but the lesser symptoms of clinical depression like insomnia, inability to focus, etc. are probably the more pressing concerns.
Good point. I went straight to the most sensational way it could manifest.
And, yeah, still can’t think of a good solution.
And, yeah, still can’t think of a good solution.
Not a crash, but a "near miss", is the recent Alaska 2059 incident, where a deadheading pilot (passenger) in the cockpit, depressed and on shrooms, started to disable the fuel systems to the plane's engines before having a moment of clarity and stopping himself.
> I don’t have a better solution, but I also don’t really think it’s a big problem to begin with.
The simplest solution that comes to mind is paid recovery period with a guarantee to come back to the workforce after treatment.
Basically what is done in any other profession in countries with paid medical leaves.
> But for “run-of-the-mill” depression? That’s my business. I can still perform the job.
I'd beg to differ. Someone with a diagnosed depression ahouldn't be doing any job beyond stuff they do alone with no risk whatsoever (gender separating chicks ? tending sheeps ?), and I feel it's just problematic as a society to not have them get help. Nobody's truely unrelated and it has ripple effects.
The simplest solution that comes to mind is paid recovery period with a guarantee to come back to the workforce after treatment.
Basically what is done in any other profession in countries with paid medical leaves.
> But for “run-of-the-mill” depression? That’s my business. I can still perform the job.
I'd beg to differ. Someone with a diagnosed depression ahouldn't be doing any job beyond stuff they do alone with no risk whatsoever (gender separating chicks ? tending sheeps ?), and I feel it's just problematic as a society to not have them get help. Nobody's truely unrelated and it has ripple effects.
> How many pilots have intentionally crashed their planes for mental health reasons? The only one that comes to mind is that Germanwings pilot a few years ago.
MH370.
MH370.
And how exactly do you know the pilot intentionally crashed MH370? It's still an unknown mystery, with no evidence of such a deliberate pilot crash.
There's a good overview here of the evidence, from a pilot.
https://youtu.be/MhkTo9Rk6_4?si=dOiHmbQi2CGleyc_
The big thing that made me believe it is the captain had the same route on his simulator at home and deleted it.
https://youtu.be/MhkTo9Rk6_4?si=dOiHmbQi2CGleyc_
The big thing that made me believe it is the captain had the same route on his simulator at home and deleted it.
Ok missed that one, seems interesting, will watch it thanks!
> I don’t have a better solution
There is an easy one.
Simply remove mental illness as a thing you have to report.
I suspect that not getting help is far more likely to lead to an eventual bad outcome than any benefit you get from screening which causes everybody to hide everything.
Medical leave for prolonged treatment, however, is a bit trickier.
There is an easy one.
Simply remove mental illness as a thing you have to report.
I suspect that not getting help is far more likely to lead to an eventual bad outcome than any benefit you get from screening which causes everybody to hide everything.
Medical leave for prolonged treatment, however, is a bit trickier.
It’s not just about hiding the problem from the FAA, it’s about a pervasive fear of getting help due to losing their livelihood. There are tons of really common reasons for wanting some mental health guidance (loss in the family, career stress, martial, whatever). Imagine having to choose between letting a relatively normal and treatable issue fester, or getting help but potentially losing your 20+ year career. It’s a shit situation and for all the FAA’s gyrations about mental health, this is fully their problem and they should be positively ashamed with their lack of reform.
Egypt Air flight 990
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990
China Eastern 5735 is another recent one.
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Isn’t this just asscovering? If someone with a documented mental health condition crashes a plane, blame goes to all parties who know of the pilots status.
If you don’t have that information in the first place it’s ‘tragic’ and ‘unavoidable’.
Maybe it’s time we as a society start understanding risk, because while the information will certainly be ‘in-your-face’ in the event of such an incident, the rate of incidents in total would go down.
If you don’t have that information in the first place it’s ‘tragic’ and ‘unavoidable’.
Maybe it’s time we as a society start understanding risk, because while the information will certainly be ‘in-your-face’ in the event of such an incident, the rate of incidents in total would go down.
The goal isn't to minimise the number of incidents, it's too minimise insurance premiums.
This is also a problem for professional drivers (truck, taxi, etc.) - as in some countries you will automatically lose your license if you seek help for alcoholism.
So what happens is that many of these type of drivers will simply not seek any help, because it is either that or their job / livelihood.
So what happens is that many of these type of drivers will simply not seek any help, because it is either that or their job / livelihood.
This has been a known problem for a long time.
In fact, psychological test development studies use pilot screening to assess for the ability of a test to detect people who are trying to make themselves look good for exactly this reason.
It's a mess and counterproductive.
In fact, psychological test development studies use pilot screening to assess for the ability of a test to detect people who are trying to make themselves look good for exactly this reason.
It's a mess and counterproductive.
They didn't even bring up being armed in the cockpit:
https://onemileatatime.com/news/delta-pilot-pulls-gun-captai...
That was last month.
https://onemileatatime.com/news/delta-pilot-pulls-gun-captai...
That was last month.
Oh. I think this headline from the article sums it up nicely:
> What on earth is wrong with people?
> What on earth is wrong with people?
I knew one that lost his medical card due to drinking on the job. Under the union contract, they still get 2/3 or 3/4 pay. Lots of trips to a shrink in Chicago.
He drove a school bus to pass the time and for extra cash.
He drove a school bus to pass the time and for extra cash.
Have pilots be able to seek help and not affect their ability to fly after recovery. Have planes equipped with remote control that can override pilots in extreme situations. Have cameras inside the cockpit and cabin stream live using the LEO, alongside all the data otherwise recorded in black box. The latter is being already discussed anyway.
A lot of recent developments made things possible that were previously outrageous. In-cabin pilots will be reduced to mere backup, and eventually completely replaced by autonomous systems, just like the train engineers do nowadays, with the only pilots left working remotely in command centers ready to take over if needed.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but vast majority of aviation deaths nowadays is caused by human factor, including pilot mistakes.
If we can trust electronic voting or remote surgeries using robots, there’s no reason this couldn’t be a thing. Seems like the predictability of the heavily regulated and standardized aviation makes it a much better candidate for autonomous systems than automotive, and I’d argue that the public has already somewhat OK-ed the latter.
A lot of recent developments made things possible that were previously outrageous. In-cabin pilots will be reduced to mere backup, and eventually completely replaced by autonomous systems, just like the train engineers do nowadays, with the only pilots left working remotely in command centers ready to take over if needed.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but vast majority of aviation deaths nowadays is caused by human factor, including pilot mistakes.
If we can trust electronic voting or remote surgeries using robots, there’s no reason this couldn’t be a thing. Seems like the predictability of the heavily regulated and standardized aviation makes it a much better candidate for autonomous systems than automotive, and I’d argue that the public has already somewhat OK-ed the latter.
> Have planes equipped with remote control that can override pilots in extreme situations.
Given the baseline security of these sorts of systems, this is a disaster waiting to happen.
Given the baseline security of these sorts of systems, this is a disaster waiting to happen.
Yeah, we just grounded an entire aircraft fleet for a few years due to systems overriding pilots.
Due to systems not designed properly and with improper regulatory oversight. Also, these systems were overriding these decisions autonomously, not through human intervention.
A defeatist take.
A defeatist take.
Most incidents start with the systems failing and the pilots being the fallback. It’s not clear how, 1. A remote system would not be immune to this, and 2. How a remote system would be good if the systems are failing and probably producing bad readings
What security? How do you people imagine this would even be online connected to the Internet?
Same problem with doctors.
This is a good idea for many reasons. In this day and age professionals must still hide their mental illnesses. Or else.
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All of a sudden, mental health is now a thing. So the FAA needs to change their policies and support the current thing
Since mental health became a thing, have we become more mentally healthy as a society? Has it actually accomplished anything of substance? Or is it just a bunch of theater?
Since mental health became a thing, have we become more mentally healthy as a society? Has it actually accomplished anything of substance? Or is it just a bunch of theater?
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They are starting to reduce some of the strict requirements and encumbrances placed on Pilots such as this because of the shortages.
I'm in the unfortunate position of having a DWI from 2009 and have been told by multiple people in the industry that would hinder my career prospects as a pilot. Essentially, I've got no shot at getting hired by American or any other major airline because of something stupid I did when I was in college 14 years ago.
I don't have a drinking problem and am a completely different person. It sucks.