Apple Maps wrongly lists restaurant permanently closed, costing owner thousands(abc.net.au)
abc.net.au
Apple Maps wrongly lists restaurant permanently closed, costing owner thousands
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-23/apple-maps-error-costs-local-business-pums-kitchen/103364008
108 comments
It sounds like what you're saying is that Apple should not list any company that does not create a direct contract with them and guarantee provision of accurate information?
To me that would imply small businesses that can't afford the time to go through such a process would be hard pressed to stay listed.
To me that would imply small businesses that can't afford the time to go through such a process would be hard pressed to stay listed.
Apple should not publish false information that unfairly damages other companies' business. When they do so, they should compensate those other companies, and accept that as a cost of being in the publishing-information-about-other-companies business. If Apple can't afford to publish accurate information about every business then yes they should publish only information that they've specifically confirmed, or refrain from publishing at all.
Alternatively, the company should have ensured that wherever (or whoever) they were providing data for were providing accurate information. Apple got that information from somewhere, and wherever they got it from presumably got it from the store in the first place[1]. Apple provides methods in the maps UI to report corrections, and another thread says there's a business connections site that you can use to ensure correct information manually.
This sounds very much like "I want to be automatically included in these map services, but I don't want to do any work to ensure accuracy".
In terms of "company with lots of money should be able to manually verify every entry", I can't find info on Apple Maps, but at a general approximation of scale google talks about 200 million businesses and points of interest[2], yelp alone has 5 million[3] and operates in a relatively small area.
Let's be conservative and say apple is at 50 million. Let's guesstimate 5 minutes per verification and now you have 250 million minutes of work just to validate this information once. Assuming a 40 hours per week, that would require 2000+ people full time employees doing nothing but calling to constantly [re-]verify business information. That would be (according to wikipedia) a 1% increase in the number of employees for the entire company, just for information that could easily be kept more accurate by the business owner. For google's 200 million PoIs you obviously require 8000 full time employees which for them would be a 6% increase in their work force.
It's super easy to say "well these companies have lots of money and so should be able to be 100% accurate", but the scale of these services does not actually make that true, especially when there are systems that allow business owners to just report the correct information directly.
[1] For whatever it's worth wikipedia says it gets information "provided by approximately twenty companies, including Booking.com, Foursquare, TripAdvisor, and Yelp" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Maps
[2] https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/maps-platform/how-goo...
[3] https://gitnux.org/yelp-statistics/#:~:text=Yelp%20has%20mor....
This sounds very much like "I want to be automatically included in these map services, but I don't want to do any work to ensure accuracy".
In terms of "company with lots of money should be able to manually verify every entry", I can't find info on Apple Maps, but at a general approximation of scale google talks about 200 million businesses and points of interest[2], yelp alone has 5 million[3] and operates in a relatively small area.
Let's be conservative and say apple is at 50 million. Let's guesstimate 5 minutes per verification and now you have 250 million minutes of work just to validate this information once. Assuming a 40 hours per week, that would require 2000+ people full time employees doing nothing but calling to constantly [re-]verify business information. That would be (according to wikipedia) a 1% increase in the number of employees for the entire company, just for information that could easily be kept more accurate by the business owner. For google's 200 million PoIs you obviously require 8000 full time employees which for them would be a 6% increase in their work force.
It's super easy to say "well these companies have lots of money and so should be able to be 100% accurate", but the scale of these services does not actually make that true, especially when there are systems that allow business owners to just report the correct information directly.
[1] For whatever it's worth wikipedia says it gets information "provided by approximately twenty companies, including Booking.com, Foursquare, TripAdvisor, and Yelp" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Maps
[2] https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/maps-platform/how-goo...
[3] https://gitnux.org/yelp-statistics/#:~:text=Yelp%20has%20mor....
It is super easy to say "Well, business owners have mechanisms to correct false information", but this requires the business owner to regularly check not just Apple Maps, but every such service (which he might not have even heard of), find out the process to correct the information on each service that has it wrong, possibly prove to these services that he is who he says he is and is also the owner of the business (potentially subjecting himself to phishing attacks). And, if the onus is not on those businesses to not publish false information, even after all that, they could just ignore him. Even if successful, if these systems are not well-designed that information might be overwritten with the next update from whatever source originally offered up the false information.
No, the publisher doesn't get to be off the hook because "it's hard to be accurate."
My guess is that Apple et al have contracts which indemnify them and if he is the ultimate source, he's already signed away any right to damages for information he provided (and maybe information he didn't).
No, the publisher doesn't get to be off the hook because "it's hard to be accurate."
My guess is that Apple et al have contracts which indemnify them and if he is the ultimate source, he's already signed away any right to damages for information he provided (and maybe information he didn't).
> It's super easy to say "well these companies have lots of money and so should be able to be 100% accurate", but the scale of these services does not actually make that true
What difference does the scale make? Just look at the unit economics. If they can't afford to spend 5 minutes verifying this data point before sending it out to thousands or millions of users, maybe they shouldn't be sending it out at all; that's true whether you have 1 data point or 1 billion. If they're going to make the effort to publish it, they should make the effort to verify it. Or if they think their accuracy rate without verification is "good enough", they should accept the consequences of that and pay fair compensation when they screw up.
What difference does the scale make? Just look at the unit economics. If they can't afford to spend 5 minutes verifying this data point before sending it out to thousands or millions of users, maybe they shouldn't be sending it out at all; that's true whether you have 1 data point or 1 billion. If they're going to make the effort to publish it, they should make the effort to verify it. Or if they think their accuracy rate without verification is "good enough", they should accept the consequences of that and pay fair compensation when they screw up.
Better to be unlisted than have a third party use your trademark to authoritatively claim you've permanently closed.
The business is actively harmed if you list them as closed. I don't see how this is the fault of the business.
They could list the business because they want it in the map without listing the hours or that it's closed.
This is the way.
The deep pockets and scale of the damage Big Corp can do against a small player is extensive.
The deep pockets and scale of the damage Big Corp can do against a small player is extensive.
Absolutely ridiculous.
I would hope that any such lawsuit would be thrown out, unless this is a particularly widespread issue, or Apple intended to harm this business. This seems like an honest mistake on Apple's part, perhaps because someone reported the business as closed.
What do you want Apple to do? Personally verify every edit to every business on Maps?
I would hope that any such lawsuit would be thrown out, unless this is a particularly widespread issue, or Apple intended to harm this business. This seems like an honest mistake on Apple's part, perhaps because someone reported the business as closed.
What do you want Apple to do? Personally verify every edit to every business on Maps?
> What do you want Apple to do? Personally verify every edit to every business on Maps?
I don't really understand why that would be too big of an ask for one of the wealthiest companies in the world, but at the very least, I'd expect Apple to yield to the authority of the business operator when changing the status to closed. Seems like a pretty solid reason for a lawsuit imo. I'm sure Apple would feel the same way if someone changed all of the Apple store retail locations to "Permanently Closed" on Google Maps and nobody checked it.
I don't really understand why that would be too big of an ask for one of the wealthiest companies in the world, but at the very least, I'd expect Apple to yield to the authority of the business operator when changing the status to closed. Seems like a pretty solid reason for a lawsuit imo. I'm sure Apple would feel the same way if someone changed all of the Apple store retail locations to "Permanently Closed" on Google Maps and nobody checked it.
One of the reasons I feel that way is that Apple Maps is free.
Yes, you do need an Apple device to use Maps, but it's at least a viable alternative to Google that casual users pick (versus, say, OpenStreetMaps).
How much is the cost to continually verify every business on Maps? I would expect it to be a very large amount. If it were very expensive, would Apple have created Maps, or keep Maps operating? I don't know.
I guess what I'm getting at is that Apple doesn't get much direct gain (as far as I know -- maybe they get some money from Yelp?) from Maps, and I'm rooting for Apple because at least they're not Google.
Yes, you do need an Apple device to use Maps, but it's at least a viable alternative to Google that casual users pick (versus, say, OpenStreetMaps).
How much is the cost to continually verify every business on Maps? I would expect it to be a very large amount. If it were very expensive, would Apple have created Maps, or keep Maps operating? I don't know.
I guess what I'm getting at is that Apple doesn't get much direct gain (as far as I know -- maybe they get some money from Yelp?) from Maps, and I'm rooting for Apple because at least they're not Google.
It's not free, it's just not paid for directly by the user. If you're not paying for the service, you're the product, not the customer.
Sorry, what do you mean? The phrase "If you're not paying for the service, you're the product, not the customer" usually means that the customer is being exploited in some way, e.g. data sold, advertised to, etc.
How does Apple Maps exploit users? As we've discussed, you must first own an Apple device. Does Apple Maps sell data or advertise or something?
How does Apple Maps exploit users? As we've discussed, you must first own an Apple device. Does Apple Maps sell data or advertise or something?
If they don't, then you are indeed paying for it.
Apple Maps is free the same way the Andes mint on my pillow is free at a hotel: you're paying for an entire experience.
If Apple Maps isn't available to to people without Apple devices, it's not free.
If Apple Maps isn't available to to people without Apple devices, it's not free.
> If Apple Maps isn't available to to people without Apple devices, it's not free.
You can. DuckDuckGo uses it as their provider. https://duckduckgo.com/?hps=1&q=1600+pennsylvania+ave&ia=web...
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/mapkitjs/
You can. DuckDuckGo uses it as their provider. https://duckduckgo.com/?hps=1&q=1600+pennsylvania+ave&ia=web...
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/mapkitjs/
I feel like others articulated valid counter arguments, but if I were to reframe and reduce the problem to an unnecessary logical extreme, would it be an excusable mistake to distribute a free newspaper related to local businesses that often reports on closures, but without even a cursory fact-checking step in the publication process? If you've tried to verify and seemingly got an accurate answer from the relevant authority, you get a pass for printing a mistake, but not if you're just printing heresay.
Whether the app costs money to use or not is irrelevant. What matters is whether or not Apple has a legal duty to avoid harming other businesses when they publish misinformation as fact.
And if not, then perhaps they at least have a moral duty. Even if Apple were fined for something like this, likely the fine would be cheaper than ensuring compliance would cost. Meanwhile, a restaurant losing customers for a week because people think it's closed could bankrupt their business.
And if not, then perhaps they at least have a moral duty. Even if Apple were fined for something like this, likely the fine would be cheaper than ensuring compliance would cost. Meanwhile, a restaurant losing customers for a week because people think it's closed could bankrupt their business.
>What do you want Apple to do? Personally verify every edit to every business on Maps?
Why do people act like human moderation would be such an untenable burden? These tech companies are GIGANTIC, they can afford to do human moderation.
Why do people act like human moderation would be such an untenable burden? These tech companies are GIGANTIC, they can afford to do human moderation.
In fact, I'm sure there's plenty of people willing to donate some time for clout/personal satisfaction/etc to keep their neighborhood information up to date, like reddit moderation.
Google does that after you've visited a place. That way they croud-source the corrections on the updates.
I wonder why this is so downvoted. Perhaps someone can explain.
The business owner attempted to notify Apple and struggled to do so. The news organization notified them by way of asking for comment and Apple still got the location of the business wrong. How honest does an honest mistake have to be before you can sue for restitution, even if it only amounts to a small claim?
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So it is really easy to update the information.
Anyone with an iPhone, Mac or web browser can do so and I've done it dozens of time because as everyone knows the POI quality is terrible.
And it's really not hard to interact with Apple here in Australia. You can either call their support number which goes direct to a person or visit an Apple Store.
Anyone with an iPhone, Mac or web browser can do so and I've done it dozens of time because as everyone knows the POI quality is terrible.
And it's really not hard to interact with Apple here in Australia. You can either call their support number which goes direct to a person or visit an Apple Store.
Clearly "everyone" doesn't know the quality of information on there is terrible. Quite a few people trusted it in this case, with alarming financial effects for the business in question.
Anyway, I don't own a Mac or iPhone. I guess if I was a small business owner and Apple Maps had wrong information about my business I'd just be out of luck.
And so instead I'm supposed to call some support number and wait on hold to talk to someone who has no idea how to fix my problem, and bounces me around for a while until the connection accidentally disconnects? Yeah, no. I think you overestimate how much time she'll business owners have to deal with this sort of garbage.
Anyway, I don't own a Mac or iPhone. I guess if I was a small business owner and Apple Maps had wrong information about my business I'd just be out of luck.
And so instead I'm supposed to call some support number and wait on hold to talk to someone who has no idea how to fix my problem, and bounces me around for a while until the connection accidentally disconnects? Yeah, no. I think you overestimate how much time she'll business owners have to deal with this sort of garbage.
The article mentions all of these potential solutions and how they failed in this case. Maybe I'm wrong for taking the article at face value, but they do at least speak to these points directly.
Can you submit corrections via a web browser without any sort of apple account? (I have no idea, I've never used apple maps or an iDevice...)
As a point of comparison, you can't submit edits on Google Maps without a Google account.
Sure but I can't even figure out how to use Apple maps... It doesn't seem to be a website I can open on my phone or Linux computers? When I go to the apple maps it appears to be some advertising for apple devices (of which I own none...).
Google maps can be used from all platforms...
Google maps can be used from all platforms...
If you de-googled your life for 5 whole minutes you’d find there’s whole world out there
But you can open and use a Google account without having to spend hundreds or thousands on Google hardware.
To me it reads like they did try to update the information, but for whatever reason, Apple's internal process for verifying and implementing the update failed.
An honest mistake isn’t a legal defense.
Almost every car accident is an honest mistake. Does that mean that the at fault driver should not have to fix the harm caused because they didn’t mean to cause it?
Almost every car accident is an honest mistake. Does that mean that the at fault driver should not have to fix the harm caused because they didn’t mean to cause it?
> Almost every car accident is an honest mistake.
Not true. Many, probably most, car collisions are caused by negligently disregarding if not wilfully exceeding the speed limit, negligently disregarding an obligation to yield to other traffic, illegally operating a phone while driving, or some combination thereof.
Not true. Many, probably most, car collisions are caused by negligently disregarding if not wilfully exceeding the speed limit, negligently disregarding an obligation to yield to other traffic, illegally operating a phone while driving, or some combination thereof.
I’m not saying that you can’t be at fault, or that the consequences of an collision aren't horrific.
I’m just using a colloquial term for people whose actions are neither intentional or malicious to make the point that you can be held responsible for damages you didn’t foresee or intend to cause.
I’m just using a colloquial term for people whose actions are neither intentional or malicious to make the point that you can be held responsible for damages you didn’t foresee or intend to cause.
Kinda missing the point there. Some car accidents are honest mistakes, but the person at fault is still responsible for making things right.
Is the idea that car collisions are accidental the point of the comment I replied to? No. Is it an insidious falsehood that normalises many preventable deaths? Yes.
Google frequently calls businesses to verify information. Not saying Google is perfect but it's possible to do better.
I didn't know this. Thanks for bringing that up. I wonder how much that kind of manual verification costs, and how, for example, they collect all of those phone numbers.
We used to have something in Australia called the Yellow Pages (actually we still do) and every business would register to be in it. Can't see why Apple can't do the same thing.
> unless this is a particularly widespread issue
Rarity of the event does not comfort the victim.
> or Apple intended to harm this business
No one cares what they "intended" to do, only what was done.
> What do you want Apple to do?
I want them to pay the guy who they harmed.
> Personally verify every edit to every business on Maps?
That's absolutely right. This isn't Open Street Maps where anyone including the business owner himself can edit the information. Apple's reponsible for this.
Rarity of the event does not comfort the victim.
> or Apple intended to harm this business
No one cares what they "intended" to do, only what was done.
> What do you want Apple to do?
I want them to pay the guy who they harmed.
> Personally verify every edit to every business on Maps?
That's absolutely right. This isn't Open Street Maps where anyone including the business owner himself can edit the information. Apple's reponsible for this.
[deleted]
It begin an honest mistake or not will have no bearing on whether or not it get thrown out.
Does Apple not have a business listing management system?
On Google Maps anyone can submit a correction. Business owners can also sign up for an account, verify ownership with a mailed postcard, and then claim and protect their listing from rogue edits.
How does it work on Apple?
On Google Maps anyone can submit a correction. Business owners can also sign up for an account, verify ownership with a mailed postcard, and then claim and protect their listing from rogue edits.
How does it work on Apple?
Ironically, they do, but it seems is irrelevant. And it happened the opposite here.
A friend these days reported that a Starbucks closed¹. Apple ignored the report, said it needed additional info...
He had to take a photo and send it, only them they approved...
With Google Maps, there's level system, where people with higher level can fix these issues easier... Not sure if Apple do the same.
[1] https://www.threads.net/@willianmax/post/C2P9nweren4
A friend these days reported that a Starbucks closed¹. Apple ignored the report, said it needed additional info...
He had to take a photo and send it, only them they approved...
With Google Maps, there's level system, where people with higher level can fix these issues easier... Not sure if Apple do the same.
[1] https://www.threads.net/@willianmax/post/C2P9nweren4
> With Google Maps, there's level system, where people with higher level can fix these issues easier...
I'm level 6/10 in that system (several hundred contributions, a few million views) and it's totally hit or miss for me. Some edits go through instantly, others take a few minutes, some take a few weeks or months. Some are peer reviewed, others aren't. It's not a very transparent system and there's no way to track them once you submit it, you just eventually get an email (or not) if it goes through or is rejected.
I'm level 6/10 in that system (several hundred contributions, a few million views) and it's totally hit or miss for me. Some edits go through instantly, others take a few minutes, some take a few weeks or months. Some are peer reviewed, others aren't. It's not a very transparent system and there's no way to track them once you submit it, you just eventually get an email (or not) if it goes through or is rejected.
There should be an open database he could submit that data to, instead of working for Apple for free.
It's a network effect and most of the good data is on Google Maps. In every place I've lived, OSM has terrible POIs years out of date. Not sure about Apple.
I edit OSM on occasion but it's just so bad it's not really usable for me day to day. On the other hand, it's super rare for a Google Maps listing to be totally wrong (vs the pin just being off by a bit), and their corrections UI is way way better than the OSM editor. It takes me like half an hour to edit a feature in OSM that would take about 1 min on Google Maps.
I edit OSM on occasion but it's just so bad it's not really usable for me day to day. On the other hand, it's super rare for a Google Maps listing to be totally wrong (vs the pin just being off by a bit), and their corrections UI is way way better than the OSM editor. It takes me like half an hour to edit a feature in OSM that would take about 1 min on Google Maps.
> It takes me like half an hour to edit a feature in OSM that would take about 1 min on Google Maps.
You could use one of those two apps, editing a POI with them does not take half an hour.
- https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete
- https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Every_Door
You could use one of those two apps, editing a POI with them does not take half an hour.
- https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete
- https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Every_Door
OK, on your suggestion, I just tried both of these apps.
StreetComplete seems to be gamified and only wants to show me "quests". I couldn't figure out how to edit a specific business that wasn't a current quest. I poked around for a few min and then gave up.
Every Door didn't show me anything at all until I manually downloaded the data, then had a pretty bad UI for editing the operating hours, not even localized to my time locales (12hr time). The time picker is horrendous too. I don't think I can stand this UI, sorry.
And when I tried to edit actual vector features on the web-based OSM editor (both of them, or whatever the difference is) it was a much more annoying experience than doing the same thing (like editing a road) on Google Maps.
The GMap editor is just much more polished and doesn't require me to go out of my way to make a trivial edit -- as you'd expect from a company with nearly infinite resources.
I'm sorry, I get that OSM is a great project, but it's just not something worth my time to try to fix. I've checked in on it (and contributed here and there, once in a great while) since its founding nearly 20 years ago, but I've never found it to have good enough data for day-to-day use, nor easy enough editing features to be worth the hassle. I'm happy it exists, but it's just not something I care enough to regularly contribute to... with limited time, it's just more useful for me to use Google Maps. Sorry, it's selfish, and not idealistic at all, but just being pragmatic. Nobody else I know uses it, either. Everyone I know uses Google Maps, so fixing it there has a cascading effect of usefulness for my entire social circle, like when we want to go to a shared location, I can make sure the pin is where it's supposed to be.
StreetComplete seems to be gamified and only wants to show me "quests". I couldn't figure out how to edit a specific business that wasn't a current quest. I poked around for a few min and then gave up.
Every Door didn't show me anything at all until I manually downloaded the data, then had a pretty bad UI for editing the operating hours, not even localized to my time locales (12hr time). The time picker is horrendous too. I don't think I can stand this UI, sorry.
And when I tried to edit actual vector features on the web-based OSM editor (both of them, or whatever the difference is) it was a much more annoying experience than doing the same thing (like editing a road) on Google Maps.
The GMap editor is just much more polished and doesn't require me to go out of my way to make a trivial edit -- as you'd expect from a company with nearly infinite resources.
I'm sorry, I get that OSM is a great project, but it's just not something worth my time to try to fix. I've checked in on it (and contributed here and there, once in a great while) since its founding nearly 20 years ago, but I've never found it to have good enough data for day-to-day use, nor easy enough editing features to be worth the hassle. I'm happy it exists, but it's just not something I care enough to regularly contribute to... with limited time, it's just more useful for me to use Google Maps. Sorry, it's selfish, and not idealistic at all, but just being pragmatic. Nobody else I know uses it, either. Everyone I know uses Google Maps, so fixing it there has a cascading effect of usefulness for my entire social circle, like when we want to go to a shared location, I can make sure the pin is where it's supposed to be.
I'm on iOS, so cannot test StreetComplete, as it's Android-only.
I just know that a lot of people use it, but didn't know that it can only do quests.
Every Door has a very good UI for editing `opening_hours` in my opinion, as it can do pretty arbitrary complicated hours easily. But I also get that it's not for everyone.
I also get your last point, about useful- and pragmaticness. I live in a country in Europe where roaming is prohibitively expensive, so use offline OpenStreetMap abroad a lot, with different apps, mostly https://organicmaps.app This has been really useful in Europe, but I have no idea on the status/freshness of OpenStreetMap data in other regions.
Every Door has a very good UI for editing `opening_hours` in my opinion, as it can do pretty arbitrary complicated hours easily. But I also get that it's not for everyone.
I also get your last point, about useful- and pragmaticness. I live in a country in Europe where roaming is prohibitively expensive, so use offline OpenStreetMap abroad a lot, with different apps, mostly https://organicmaps.app This has been really useful in Europe, but I have no idea on the status/freshness of OpenStreetMap data in other regions.
> In every place I've lived, OSM has terrible POIs years out of date.
We're the ones responsible for it being great or terrible. Somebody's gotta input that data into the map. By somebody I mean us, it's not gonna be there if we don't put it in there. It's a lot of work but it benefits everyone.
If you see outdated information, update it!
We're the ones responsible for it being great or terrible. Somebody's gotta input that data into the map. By somebody I mean us, it's not gonna be there if we don't put it in there. It's a lot of work but it benefits everyone.
If you see outdated information, update it!
I do, but there's not enough of a critical mass there :( Google has the bulk of businesses and editors.
It would be nice if there was a system/app that can correlate POIs across services, normalize their schemas, and then update all of them at once with one edit.
It would be nice if there was a system/app that can correlate POIs across services, normalize their schemas, and then update all of them at once with one edit.
There's no technical impediment to the existence of those systems. The problem is legal. Unfortunately, maps are copyrighted. We must collect and input the information independently.
It's called Wikidata.
Wikidata is not meant for random restaurant listings. OpenStreetMap will happily accept them though.
It's not very useful to have that in a separate place compared to in Google Maps, which consolidates reviews, official business info (closures), traffic, transit, how busy it is, etc.
I was making the point that it is a complete waste of time to contribute your free time to a corporation that will use your efforts for profit and give you nothing.
One of the better things about the old internet was the collaborative effort to build up information, but we should not contribute to closed systems anymore.
If Google or Apple wants that information they can figure out how to get it themselves or pay users. It's not our duty to help them scale
One of the better things about the old internet was the collaborative effort to build up information, but we should not contribute to closed systems anymore.
If Google or Apple wants that information they can figure out how to get it themselves or pay users. It's not our duty to help them scale
On one hand, I understand the desire for that, from a sustainable open-data perspective. Any day, Google can decide to close off/enshittify Google Maps (as has already started to happen with location-based ads).
However, until and unless that happens, I still find tremendous value in Google Maps, as do many people I know.
> It's not our duty to help them scale
No, but editing Google Maps also helps a ton of real users, even if Google also happens to profit from it. For the last two decades, Google Maps has been free and used by millions (billions?) of people around the world, myself and most of my friends and family included. More than any other similar service (OSM, TripAdvisor, Yelp, OrganicMaps, county/city GIS, Apple Maps, in-car GPS, standalone GPS, etc.), this has been my go-to mapping & location service, and IMHO it is Google's single best service. Simply put, they do a REALLY good job at it, and it provides unparalleled accuracy and ease of use.
The crowdsourced corrections part of it is huge, and not that different from us contributing our opinions here on HN (also a for-profit corporation), or reviewing things on Yelp/Metacritic/whatever, or providing our Android traffic data, etc. Yes, corporations profit from all of that, but they still provide valuable community services. I've seen local businesses gain customers after I updated their listing, delivery drivers find their way after I corrected misplaced pins, etc. It affects and improves my local communities, even as Google profits. Editing OSM doesn't do that, because nobody I know uses it.
For me this isn't about "duty" or purity of ethics, just about having a useful & good app to find places and get to them. Again, it's a network effect... it is useful to edit Google Maps because everyone else uses it, and edits it, and in so doing we have a accurate global POI database unmatched by any other effort.
Nobody obliges you to use Google Maps. But I'm a very happy user of it, and would gladly pay for it if it weren't free (in fact I wish they offered a paid plan to skip the ads). Do I wish it were a FOSS product run by a nonprofit? Sure. But OSM hasn't caught up in two decades, and it probably won't in my lifetime... if anything the gap between it and Google keeps getting bigger, as Maps gets more and more features and OSM falls further and further behind =/
However, until and unless that happens, I still find tremendous value in Google Maps, as do many people I know.
> It's not our duty to help them scale
No, but editing Google Maps also helps a ton of real users, even if Google also happens to profit from it. For the last two decades, Google Maps has been free and used by millions (billions?) of people around the world, myself and most of my friends and family included. More than any other similar service (OSM, TripAdvisor, Yelp, OrganicMaps, county/city GIS, Apple Maps, in-car GPS, standalone GPS, etc.), this has been my go-to mapping & location service, and IMHO it is Google's single best service. Simply put, they do a REALLY good job at it, and it provides unparalleled accuracy and ease of use.
The crowdsourced corrections part of it is huge, and not that different from us contributing our opinions here on HN (also a for-profit corporation), or reviewing things on Yelp/Metacritic/whatever, or providing our Android traffic data, etc. Yes, corporations profit from all of that, but they still provide valuable community services. I've seen local businesses gain customers after I updated their listing, delivery drivers find their way after I corrected misplaced pins, etc. It affects and improves my local communities, even as Google profits. Editing OSM doesn't do that, because nobody I know uses it.
For me this isn't about "duty" or purity of ethics, just about having a useful & good app to find places and get to them. Again, it's a network effect... it is useful to edit Google Maps because everyone else uses it, and edits it, and in so doing we have a accurate global POI database unmatched by any other effort.
Nobody obliges you to use Google Maps. But I'm a very happy user of it, and would gladly pay for it if it weren't free (in fact I wish they offered a paid plan to skip the ads). Do I wish it were a FOSS product run by a nonprofit? Sure. But OSM hasn't caught up in two decades, and it probably won't in my lifetime... if anything the gap between it and Google keeps getting bigger, as Maps gets more and more features and OSM falls further and further behind =/
On an article about a business incorrectly marked as "closed" you're suggesting that expecting some basic confirmation about a change, is unreasonable?
And it worked for the business? Doesn't seem so. In the end both had incorrect status.
We don't know why the business was marked as closed. Maybe they had a sign up during the pandemic saying "closed until further notice".
Apple Business Connect
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/01/introducing-apple-bus...
>Apple today introduced Apple Business Connect, a free tool that allows businesses of all sizes to claim their location place cards and customize the way key information appears to more than a billion Apple users across Apple Maps, Messages, Wallet, Siri, and other apps.
https://businessconnect.apple.com/
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/01/introducing-apple-bus...
>Apple today introduced Apple Business Connect, a free tool that allows businesses of all sizes to claim their location place cards and customize the way key information appears to more than a billion Apple users across Apple Maps, Messages, Wallet, Siri, and other apps.
https://businessconnect.apple.com/
I don't know about businesses, but individuals can definitely issue corrections: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39098692
Google Maps recently changed our street name... to something that doesn't match what's on the sign (the word that was at the end is now at the beginning). We've had multiple failed deliveries because there are multiple "nearest neighbour" matches while the correct match doesn't show up for most searches. Submitting a report hasn't resulted in a response. Argh. So much of tech seems to be a constant uphill battle wasting time these days.
I make something of a hobby out of filing Apple Maps corrections. Partly for my own reference, partly to support businesses (especially ones I really love), and partly just because there are lots of opportunities to do so because it isn't google maps, and it's fun to see one accepted, like a little game
To their credit, they're usually quick to turn around and update the info (or follow up for additional evidence that the correction is accurate)
To their credit, they're usually quick to turn around and update the info (or follow up for additional evidence that the correction is accurate)
Please consider contributing to Open Street Maps as well. Our contributions are much more valuable there. Someone on HN got me started with OSM by suggesting I try Street Complete. Days later I was capturing GPS tracks and verifying the map correctness. Turned out to be a surprisingly accurate map. Then I downloaded mobile mapping apps and started improving roads, adding metadata to stuff. Then I downloaded JOSM...
Once upon a time I used to add data to Google Maps because they dangled some bullshit Google Drive space in front of me as a reward. No longer.
Once upon a time I used to add data to Google Maps because they dangled some bullshit Google Drive space in front of me as a reward. No longer.
StreetComplete is addictive. That little complete sound...
Van you explain why JOSM ? Never tried. I've used most mobile editors and the Web Id editor.
Van you explain why JOSM ? Never tried. I've used most mobile editors and the Web Id editor.
JOSM is an incredibly advanced piece of software. Just learning the basics, the keyboard bindings and the editing modes made editing much more efficient. It contains an insane amount of functionality and tools built into it and it has plugin support. A mobile editor like Vespucci is quite capable and I still use it a lot but there's no competing with JOSM in terms of functionality.
When I wanted to make detailed edits to points and the relationships between them, I often found that only JOSM supported what I wanted to do.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Advanced_editing
Splitting and combining ways are very common tasks that are trivial in JOSM but proved to be quite difficult if not impossible in other editors. Relations are used to add information such as road turn restrictions, editing these relations is essentially impossible in any editor other than JOSM.
When I wanted to make detailed edits to points and the relationships between them, I often found that only JOSM supported what I wanted to do.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Advanced_editing
Splitting and combining ways are very common tasks that are trivial in JOSM but proved to be quite difficult if not impossible in other editors. Relations are used to add information such as road turn restrictions, editing these relations is essentially impossible in any editor other than JOSM.
I have an Apple Maps issue I can't figure out how to file a report of.
I live at 123 My Street, and there's a nearby 123 East My Street about two miles north.
If I say "Hey Siri, directions to Home", and I'm north of both of them, it'll direct me to the wrong place. If I'm south, it'll take me to the correct home. (The closest one, it'd seem.) Same thing even if I type the exact correct address into Apple Maps.
I live at 123 My Street, and there's a nearby 123 East My Street about two miles north.
If I say "Hey Siri, directions to Home", and I'm north of both of them, it'll direct me to the wrong place. If I'm south, it'll take me to the correct home. (The closest one, it'd seem.) Same thing even if I type the exact correct address into Apple Maps.
Are these not in different cities?
If they are in the same city you could ask the city to rename your street 123 My Street South or something?
If they are in the same city you could ask the city to rename your street 123 My Street South or something?
All in the same town. Unlike most street name splits (like West Main / East Main), they're not even connected. Very little chance they'd change street names over this.
This is a new level of bending to Apple's inadequacies.
How about Apple figure out that streets with different but similar names exist? Or store "home" as a coordinate instead of an address?
How about Apple figure out that streets with different but similar names exist? Or store "home" as a coordinate instead of an address?
Why would you spend your time and effort to support a trillion dollar company like Apple, or restaurant owners who don't care about their own business? Both these parties can afford to do it themselves.
Because there’s a benefit to other members of the public, and some people are just nice
> there was still a major problem. "The pin drop on the map is wrong," Mr Pyatt said.
So there's a good chance someone didn't locate the restaurant at the indicated location, then as a result, marked it closed.
No idea how that happened of course, and the article does report that even people correctly using the business owner tools to try to fix it are unsuccessful, but it does show how keeping your maps entries up to date is both critical for small physical businesses, and hard for many of them.
It's also important to keep your business hours up to date on any mapping platform commonly used in your area. Having out of date business hours not only loses customers or frustrates them, a customer standing in front of the business while it's supposed to be open according to the maps entry but is actually closed might press the button to mark it as "permanently closed" either because they confused it with the proper button, or out of spite because they're frustrated that they went there in vain. Sure, map providers should have a review process for it, but the graveyards are filled with people who had the right of way, and it will affect your business much more than theirs if you get hit by this.
So there's a good chance someone didn't locate the restaurant at the indicated location, then as a result, marked it closed.
No idea how that happened of course, and the article does report that even people correctly using the business owner tools to try to fix it are unsuccessful, but it does show how keeping your maps entries up to date is both critical for small physical businesses, and hard for many of them.
It's also important to keep your business hours up to date on any mapping platform commonly used in your area. Having out of date business hours not only loses customers or frustrates them, a customer standing in front of the business while it's supposed to be open according to the maps entry but is actually closed might press the button to mark it as "permanently closed" either because they confused it with the proper button, or out of spite because they're frustrated that they went there in vain. Sure, map providers should have a review process for it, but the graveyards are filled with people who had the right of way, and it will affect your business much more than theirs if you get hit by this.
Apple listed my business as temporarily closed and removed my physical address from their map database without any consultation from me. I'm now living and working in a paddock, road gone!
All other competitors services are showing accurately.
I have no recourse other than to look into legal action and have been in touch with local media to try and rally against this.
Apple have been unhelpful and don't grasp the concept that if I'm trying to claim my business to correct the map issue (their suggestion) that they can't keep rejecting this claim because they can't locate my business on their map went through several "levels" and none of them could understand the dilemma. Was advised there may be no favourable outcome.
To anyone who thinks this is totally acceptable, politely get bent.
They are 100% trying to force people into their services and what they require doesn't match the business laws of the country they are operating in.
Apple Maps business listings are woefully unreliable. Much less likely to have data (hours, phone/website, existence...) and what data is there is often stale. Only reason I use it is to avoid installing Google apps and IME OSM[1] is even worse. If I actually depended on maps for anything important on a regular basis there's no question I'd be using Google.
[1] OpenStreetMap
[1] OpenStreetMap
This is very unfortunate, and I hope the restaurant can recover.
Apple could do better here to make it easier for restaurant owners to keep their information up-to-date. I imagine this situation would be particularly frustrating for anyone non-technical.
I think that errors like these are inevitable, though. It's probably not possible to map the entire world's restaurants without making mistakes.
Apple could do better here to make it easier for restaurant owners to keep their information up-to-date. I imagine this situation would be particularly frustrating for anyone non-technical.
I think that errors like these are inevitable, though. It's probably not possible to map the entire world's restaurants without making mistakes.
> Apple could do better here to make it easier for restaurant owners to keep their information up-to-date
They have a portal at https://businessconnect.apple.com.
I just updated a business and it took about 30s.
They have a portal at https://businessconnect.apple.com.
I just updated a business and it took about 30s.
I just tried it and was unable to do it. It asked for an "Apple ID"
... yes? just like you need a google account to use google's business services
So you weren't unable to do it, you made a choice to rely on automated systems getting the right information through scraping or whatever they do. That's your choice, but you don't get to then act like it was not possible to do the task.
That's like saying "I tried to rent a car from hertz but that's no actually possible. They asked for a 'license'".
So you weren't unable to do it, you made a choice to rely on automated systems getting the right information through scraping or whatever they do. That's your choice, but you don't get to then act like it was not possible to do the task.
That's like saying "I tried to rent a car from hertz but that's no actually possible. They asked for a 'license'".
> That's like saying "I tried to rent a car from hertz but that's no actually possible. They asked for a 'license'".
No, that's nothing like what it's like.
It's like "I woke up this morning and there's a Hertz car parked in my front lawn, but when I call Hertz to tell them about the problem, they won't talk to me unless I sign a contract with them."
No, that's nothing like what it's like.
It's like "I woke up this morning and there's a Hertz car parked in my front lawn, but when I call Hertz to tell them about the problem, they won't talk to me unless I sign a contract with them."
This isn't an issue worth fixing because basically nobody else is worried about signing up for an Apple ID if they want to update their business information with Apple.
If that's the blocker, you'll just have to rely on Apple to update Apple's business information directory, or get a friend to do it, or simply click "Report an Issue" when using Apple Maps.
If that's the blocker, you'll just have to rely on Apple to update Apple's business information directory, or get a friend to do it, or simply click "Report an Issue" when using Apple Maps.
yes there's a login involved
I have the reverse problem with a bank atm in my city on google maps. I've marked it permanently closed several times. It will get marked permanently closed, then months later appear open again. The first time that happened, I actually went back thinking maybe they re-opened it, but nope still just a vacant wall with a bunch of 1 star reviews.
I found this happens all the time on Yelp, Apple Maps and Google Maps. It's particularly bad in non-US countries (e.g. France) where you get sent to a residential house for a Decathlon.
For years, my house was listed as being about a mile away - I have fought with Google and Apple to get these changed so delivery services don't mis-deliver.
For years, my house was listed as being about a mile away - I have fought with Google and Apple to get these changed so delivery services don't mis-deliver.
I've found Apple extremely responsive when I report errors on the map. Fixes generally made in a few days. I've only used it for missing addresses, wrong street name, and bad directions, not business info, but I'd be surprised if it was different.
It feels like you have to choose between Google Maps, with up to date information but an ad-riddled, not-useful interface, or Apple Maps, with a simpler map interface but worthlessly unreliable information.
Looking for a place to eat in downtown SF always requires sifting through multiple listings for "permanently closed" restaurants that have indeed been closed, for a decade. Why do those still need to appear on the default view?
On the other hand, a new record store just opened up in North Beach recently - already on Google Maps but, of course, still missing on Apple Maps this weekend.
Looking for a place to eat in downtown SF always requires sifting through multiple listings for "permanently closed" restaurants that have indeed been closed, for a decade. Why do those still need to appear on the default view?
On the other hand, a new record store just opened up in North Beach recently - already on Google Maps but, of course, still missing on Apple Maps this weekend.
I'll choose the map system that actually works... maybe I'm alone but I don't remember ever being served an ad in Google Maps.
I think businesses can pay to show up at lower zoom levels?
In my opinion the "Latest in the Area" screen using 30% of real estate by default when you launch the app is an ad, regardless of whether the businesses featured there actually pay Google or just show up there randomly.
You can have as many map apps on your phone as you like, then use the right app for what the right occasion. So Google Maps to find a restaurant, Apple Maps or Waze for driving, etc. No need to choose.
I’ve had this happen on Google Maps multiple times. I don’t think this is unique to Apple.
Wondering when enshittification (dislike the term, but there you go) of maps will come and they start charging businesses if they want to be listed at all.
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Apple's terms and EULA don't matter, because the injured party is not an Apple customer.