Ask HN: How many of you are self employed?
How many of you are self employed? What do you do? I won't count startups that are funded, but more the individual who started something for themselves. Curious to know what sustains people.
448 comments
Currently self-employed as a.....rare coin dealer! Odd path for a tech nerd hacker like me, but certainly the most fun thing I've ever done with no plans to change this gig ever.
My backstory: Collected coins as a kiddo, took a 35-year detour into startup land: Started a VC-backed Web 1.0 company from 1999-2002, ran a non-tech company for ~10 years, then 2014-2022 did very traditional early stage tech product management / utility infielder roles. All fun times with at least one legit acquisition/IPO so far, but it turns out I don't love long zoom meetings and politics and formal process all that much.
In 2021 I started getting back into my old coin-collecting hobby and dabbled in buying and selling at a local coin show, and boy oh boy did that escalate quickly (it was one of the most fun and dopamine-filled weekends I can remember in a long time).
Cut to 2023 and I'm running my own rare coin business full-time -- buying, selling, and trading. It's such a fascinating business and very quiet multi-billion dollar industry with enormous opportunity. You need to have a passion for coin collecting and have a knack and aesthetic eye for quality (it's not all spreadsheet Moneyball), but man is it fun.
Feel free to AMA about being a tech nerd full-time coin dealer :)
My backstory: Collected coins as a kiddo, took a 35-year detour into startup land: Started a VC-backed Web 1.0 company from 1999-2002, ran a non-tech company for ~10 years, then 2014-2022 did very traditional early stage tech product management / utility infielder roles. All fun times with at least one legit acquisition/IPO so far, but it turns out I don't love long zoom meetings and politics and formal process all that much.
In 2021 I started getting back into my old coin-collecting hobby and dabbled in buying and selling at a local coin show, and boy oh boy did that escalate quickly (it was one of the most fun and dopamine-filled weekends I can remember in a long time).
Cut to 2023 and I'm running my own rare coin business full-time -- buying, selling, and trading. It's such a fascinating business and very quiet multi-billion dollar industry with enormous opportunity. You need to have a passion for coin collecting and have a knack and aesthetic eye for quality (it's not all spreadsheet Moneyball), but man is it fun.
Feel free to AMA about being a tech nerd full-time coin dealer :)
Awhile back a friend of mine started talking about how he was getting into coin dealing as a full time job. I was never able to quite believe him, and then was just kinda baffled when he started buying houses and nice cars and boats and taking expensive vacations. Was he legit or was he dealing drugs? Is the coin game that lucrative?
Hmmm I mean it can certainly be lucrative but it is NOT a get-rich-quick kind of business. It's a get-rich-slow business if you know what you're doing and put lots of effort in over years. So I'd say I'm skeptical, but you never know!
I'm not sure I'd jump to the conclusion that he was dealing drugs, but it's certainly an option that he was...shall we say....washing his income.
I'm not sure I'd jump to the conclusion that he was dealing drugs, but it's certainly an option that he was...shall we say....washing his income.
To what extent did your past income (IPOs, executive…) provide the necessary capital to do this profitably? I wonder if there are some economies of scale required outside of numismatics know-how - ie get positive expected value/profit if you can front to buy $100k worth of coins for the 1 coin that is worth it at $101k.
That is an excellent and reasonable question. I was able to put a moderate chunk of capital into my inventory and yes, that absolutely has helped (the old 'it takes money to make money'), but at the same time, I'm not the most efficient capital allocator. I know people who make just as much as I do (and more!) with 1/10th the capital, but they play a different version of the game I do and have a different set of skills.
I do think that numismatic know-how is an absolute must and the more you have the more opportunities there are. There's very little money to be made simply churning bullion, for example. That doesn't require a ton of know-how other than hanging a shingle and buying and selling gold and silver. But margins there are 2-3% if you're lucky, so that's a hard game to play unless you've got a BIG chunk of capital to throw at it. (Also, I'd argue bullion slinging is on the fringe of true "numismatics" but I'm a snob about that lol)
I do think that numismatic know-how is an absolute must and the more you have the more opportunities there are. There's very little money to be made simply churning bullion, for example. That doesn't require a ton of know-how other than hanging a shingle and buying and selling gold and silver. But margins there are 2-3% if you're lucky, so that's a hard game to play unless you've got a BIG chunk of capital to throw at it. (Also, I'd argue bullion slinging is on the fringe of true "numismatics" but I'm a snob about that lol)
Thanks for the details!
If you’re ok sharing, what’s a sane startup cost in your mind as to be competitive in the numismatic-competent approach you describe, but still small time ($10-20k/yr profit) - an initial $5-10k, $10-30k, $40k+?
If you’re ok sharing, what’s a sane startup cost in your mind as to be competitive in the numismatic-competent approach you describe, but still small time ($10-20k/yr profit) - an initial $5-10k, $10-30k, $40k+?
I think a 1:2 capital:revenue ratio is what I would call "medium difficulty" mode -- you should know what you're doing and don't need to be insanely perfect in every call. So to make $10-$20k annually, putting $20-40k to work should do it.
But you never know - I've had double-ups on some coins, so you might buy a $10k coin and make $10k in a single deal if you know what you're doing :)
But you never know - I've had double-ups on some coins, so you might buy a $10k coin and make $10k in a single deal if you know what you're doing :)
Ty! I’ve got the time and capitalization to try this in that case. Grew up interested in stamps so sounds like time to re-engage in a way. Appreciate the unselfish discussion and details.
Shoot me an email (see bio) and I'm more than happy to help in any way I can. The other wonderful thing about this hobby/business is that for the most part more dealers !== more competition, since there are so so many different facets of the business it ends up growing the hobby more than not. Happy to help you find your niche.
Will do next week. Thank you!
I have been curious about using computer vision to bulk scan and identify valuable coins. Have systems like this been put into use already? If not do you think they might dilute the value of "rare" coins by creating many more "finds" then were typically possible without the technology?
Hasn't been done (well) yet, and it's absolutely doable. BUT - I don't think that's actually one of the big problems to be solved. I would argue there are enough knowledgable eyeballs out there that there really aren't too too many "undiscovered" rarities.
And what I mean by that is, for example: The 1909-S VDB or the 1955 Doubled Die are two of the mega rarities when it comes to Lincoln cents. They are worth $500+ even in the worst shape. But they're very obvious to someone with even basic coin knowledge, and there are lots of books and pictures out there. And in fact, I'd argue there are very very very few of those coins out there that haven't been identified for what they are -- they've been known rarities for 114 and 68 years respectively. So computer vision telling someone that it's a rare coin isn't going to be too much of a game-changer.
(This is a strongly stated, loosely held belief btw - I can easily be argued into a different perspective).
I think a much more interesting application for computer vision to the business is when it comes to grading (coins are graded on a 1-70 scale for Reasons). And in some cases, the difference a single grade point makes can be $thousands. Official grading is still done entirely by human eyes. An efficient computer vision system to look for undergraded coins I think has real opportunity. It's not an easy feat though - you can't really truly grade with static photos, and there needs to be normalization, so you'd need video clips w/ depth mapping of many thosands of coins to train a model properly. But it could be done!
And what I mean by that is, for example: The 1909-S VDB or the 1955 Doubled Die are two of the mega rarities when it comes to Lincoln cents. They are worth $500+ even in the worst shape. But they're very obvious to someone with even basic coin knowledge, and there are lots of books and pictures out there. And in fact, I'd argue there are very very very few of those coins out there that haven't been identified for what they are -- they've been known rarities for 114 and 68 years respectively. So computer vision telling someone that it's a rare coin isn't going to be too much of a game-changer.
(This is a strongly stated, loosely held belief btw - I can easily be argued into a different perspective).
I think a much more interesting application for computer vision to the business is when it comes to grading (coins are graded on a 1-70 scale for Reasons). And in some cases, the difference a single grade point makes can be $thousands. Official grading is still done entirely by human eyes. An efficient computer vision system to look for undergraded coins I think has real opportunity. It's not an easy feat though - you can't really truly grade with static photos, and there needs to be normalization, so you'd need video clips w/ depth mapping of many thosands of coins to train a model properly. But it could be done!
I used the iphone/android Maktun a little, it can identify coins and paper bills from camera.
If you're comfortable answering, I'd be SUPER interested to know how the income compares to tech!
If I may give you a somewhat indirect answer: One of the best things about this business is it returns proportionate to the effort you put in. I know people working with $50k in capital who make $500k a year. I also know people with $1m in capital who make $100k a year. (And I know people with $50k in capital making $50k a year).
And at the extreme: I know one high-volume wholesale dealer (who's been doing this for decades) talking about his business. He has about $250k in capital for inventory and he turns his inventory 36 times a year --- $9m in gross sales! And he's a high margin guy -- so I'm guessing he's making $1.5-$2m a year on $250k in rolling inventory.
There are a lot of ways to make money in the coin business and one of the most fun parts is learning new and different strategies every day.
And at the extreme: I know one high-volume wholesale dealer (who's been doing this for decades) talking about his business. He has about $250k in capital for inventory and he turns his inventory 36 times a year --- $9m in gross sales! And he's a high margin guy -- so I'm guessing he's making $1.5-$2m a year on $250k in rolling inventory.
There are a lot of ways to make money in the coin business and one of the most fun parts is learning new and different strategies every day.
What percentage of your sales are to other dealers vs collectors/non-industry customers? Thx
This is a good question and one that comes up often. I'd say it's around 60% to dealers, 40% to collectors. I'd like the skew to be more like 10%/90%, and that's my aim, but I take the position that a quick profitable sale to a dealer can be better than waiting for the right collector to come around and pay full retail price. It's a delicate dance and you need to develop an intuition for what coins are collector-friendly and quick sellers vs. what's more likely to sit around for a while. And the answer is different for every dealer and every series of coin. There are a lot of variables!
Is forgery ever an issue?
Yes! There are quite a few fakes (both coins and currency) floating out there. Some of the best fakes are gold coins that - and you might find this surprising - are actually made out of gold. The reason is that at various times through mid/late 1900s, many countries forbade the export of gold while the US allowed for imports of our own coinage. So a crafty smuggler who wants to get their gold out of, say, the middle east and into the US would have the gold minted into fake US coins so as to bypass the export/import restrictions. Real gold, fake coins. Kinda wild.
Anyway, coin and paper money nerds are quite good at identifying fakes - there are specific die marks, casting marks, etc. that allow a trained eye to identify a counterfeit pretty easily. This is combatted with a combination of experience and the 3rd-party certification companies which encapsulate coins and paper money along with a genuine guarantee (and they will pay you for the item if it's discovered to be counterfeit at any time).
It's an issue for some types of coins more than others, but with experience it's usually possible to identify counterfeits.
Anyway, coin and paper money nerds are quite good at identifying fakes - there are specific die marks, casting marks, etc. that allow a trained eye to identify a counterfeit pretty easily. This is combatted with a combination of experience and the 3rd-party certification companies which encapsulate coins and paper money along with a genuine guarantee (and they will pay you for the item if it's discovered to be counterfeit at any time).
It's an issue for some types of coins more than others, but with experience it's usually possible to identify counterfeits.
That's fascinating. In a way a gold smuggled coin like that seems more rare than the genuine article? That would have an effect of its own on the value? Or maybe the problem is such coins are impossible to identify with certainty because they weren't made by an "official" mint?
There are definitely people who collect fakes/smuggled coins, but because they have the stench of counterfeit on them, their appeal is limited.
However - there is one super notable example. In the mid-1900s a guy who became known as the "Omega Man" made counterfeits of the famous 1907 High Relif $20 Gold Coin that were SO good that for many years many of them were certified and bought and sold as genuine. Like many craftsmen of his ilk, the Omega Man couldn't resist leaving a calling card on his (gold) fakes, and it was eventually discovered. Those are outright collectible today for more than their gold value.
Some details:
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/10583/omega-counterfeit...
However - there is one super notable example. In the mid-1900s a guy who became known as the "Omega Man" made counterfeits of the famous 1907 High Relif $20 Gold Coin that were SO good that for many years many of them were certified and bought and sold as genuine. Like many craftsmen of his ilk, the Omega Man couldn't resist leaving a calling card on his (gold) fakes, and it was eventually discovered. Those are outright collectible today for more than their gold value.
Some details:
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/10583/omega-counterfeit...
How does tech help you to run this business?
I left this reply for last because it's the best question and most significant one for me. Tech helps me A LOT, and it's one of the reasons I'm having so much fun doing what I'm doing.
I've written my own software stack that does a few things:
Consolidates pricing -- by putting readily-available data all on a single screen, so when everyone else needs to check 3 different price guides to get various pricing indicators, I have it all in one place.
Manages inventory -- you would be surprised and perhaps shocked at how disorganized most dealers are. They have absolutely no idea what they own or how much money they're making -- when they buy a coin, they slap a sticker on it with their "cost code" which is just an incredibly weak substitution cypher -- and they refer to this code when they quote sale prices.
Allows for quick appraisals/quotes -- again, most dealers open a paper pricing guide and write down line by line how much they're willing to pay for a coin when they're quoting someone. I can enter a line in 10 seconds and have a buy price right away.
Does some VERY light machine learning / price prediction -- I'd love to say this is massively complex AI, but it's a pretty simple tabular regression based on historical sales data. It gives me one extra data point when I'm buying or selling to figure out if I'm paying a good price or not.
I think it's very possible to run a successful coin business without tech and I know a lot of people who have done it, but I certainly think having this software is helping me get better faster. It's like a set of training wheels that lets me play with much more experienced dealers at a much faster pace than I'd normally be running.
I've written my own software stack that does a few things:
Consolidates pricing -- by putting readily-available data all on a single screen, so when everyone else needs to check 3 different price guides to get various pricing indicators, I have it all in one place.
Manages inventory -- you would be surprised and perhaps shocked at how disorganized most dealers are. They have absolutely no idea what they own or how much money they're making -- when they buy a coin, they slap a sticker on it with their "cost code" which is just an incredibly weak substitution cypher -- and they refer to this code when they quote sale prices.
Allows for quick appraisals/quotes -- again, most dealers open a paper pricing guide and write down line by line how much they're willing to pay for a coin when they're quoting someone. I can enter a line in 10 seconds and have a buy price right away.
Does some VERY light machine learning / price prediction -- I'd love to say this is massively complex AI, but it's a pretty simple tabular regression based on historical sales data. It gives me one extra data point when I'm buying or selling to figure out if I'm paying a good price or not.
I think it's very possible to run a successful coin business without tech and I know a lot of people who have done it, but I certainly think having this software is helping me get better faster. It's like a set of training wheels that lets me play with much more experienced dealers at a much faster pace than I'd normally be running.
Do you do paid appraisals of collections?
Yes! And free appraisals if the collection is for sale and I can have an opportunity to make an offer :)
It's a balance of time investment for me. If I know someone has no intention of selling and just needs an insurance appraisal, then that would be a paid service since I'm simply selling my time and expertise (which I'm more than happy to do). If there's an opportunity for me to purchase the collection, I'll usually put the bid together at no charge since that's a sales & marketing expense on my internal brain books.
A lot of dealers will try to split the difference -- they'll offer the appraisal at no charge if they get to purchase the collection, and if they don't end up purchasing then the appraisal fee comes into play. I actually think that's a reasonably fair model and may adapt that.
It's a balance of time investment for me. If I know someone has no intention of selling and just needs an insurance appraisal, then that would be a paid service since I'm simply selling my time and expertise (which I'm more than happy to do). If there's an opportunity for me to purchase the collection, I'll usually put the bid together at no charge since that's a sales & marketing expense on my internal brain books.
A lot of dealers will try to split the difference -- they'll offer the appraisal at no charge if they get to purchase the collection, and if they don't end up purchasing then the appraisal fee comes into play. I actually think that's a reasonably fair model and may adapt that.
Doesn't that make for a tricky conflict of interest? (No offense intended).
I mean if you're paid for the appraisal then there's no incentive for your number not to be honest.
On the other hand if you are valuer, then buyer, then it pays you to err on the low side. Not "wrong", just "low".
I don't mean to impinge your ethics of course, but as a model (which I'm sure the whole industry follows) it seems to leave the seller open to abuse from folks with imperfect motivations.
To be sure though, I can't suggest a better alternative. The best people to value it are dealers. Short of more-or-less auctioning it to multiple dealers at the same time.
I think this is true for most collectibles. And especially true for the collections of those who have passed. My suggestion to any collector is for them to sell it themselves before they die.
I mean if you're paid for the appraisal then there's no incentive for your number not to be honest.
On the other hand if you are valuer, then buyer, then it pays you to err on the low side. Not "wrong", just "low".
I don't mean to impinge your ethics of course, but as a model (which I'm sure the whole industry follows) it seems to leave the seller open to abuse from folks with imperfect motivations.
To be sure though, I can't suggest a better alternative. The best people to value it are dealers. Short of more-or-less auctioning it to multiple dealers at the same time.
I think this is true for most collectibles. And especially true for the collections of those who have passed. My suggestion to any collector is for them to sell it themselves before they die.
No you're absolutely right -- it's a great point and I was imprecise with my response. The key is really to differentiate a "how much is my collection worth I kinda want to sell it" request from a more formal "I'd like an appraisal" request.
I conflated the two but they really are separate requests and are to be treated distinctly.
The former (which is much more common) is what most dealers hear. It's a request from folks who happen upon a collection and want to sell it and turn it into cash (or gold or silver or whatever near-cash equivalent they desire). That's where a call to a dealer isn't so much a request for an "appraisal" (in the formal definition) but more "how much money can I get for this collection now". It's implicit that the number the dealer offers is what they'd pay for it, which also happens to be the number the dealer believes it's worth. I don't have any moral qualms about that.
(Side note -- speaking of "not wrong just low" -- one of my favorite old-school dealers who's been doing this for 40 years and is appropriately salty lives by the mantra "I like to pay on the low end of fair".)
The second type of request - which is for a formal, written, insurable, usable-in-court Capital-A "Appraisal" is where there might be more potential for a conflict of interest, but if we as dealers are clear this is the job we're being hired for then we're going to issue a valuation which is based on published price guides (and the appropriate disclaimer that is is retail replacement value, not necessarily the price a dealer will pay).
Hope that clears it up - and thank you for the comment.
I conflated the two but they really are separate requests and are to be treated distinctly.
The former (which is much more common) is what most dealers hear. It's a request from folks who happen upon a collection and want to sell it and turn it into cash (or gold or silver or whatever near-cash equivalent they desire). That's where a call to a dealer isn't so much a request for an "appraisal" (in the formal definition) but more "how much money can I get for this collection now". It's implicit that the number the dealer offers is what they'd pay for it, which also happens to be the number the dealer believes it's worth. I don't have any moral qualms about that.
(Side note -- speaking of "not wrong just low" -- one of my favorite old-school dealers who's been doing this for 40 years and is appropriately salty lives by the mantra "I like to pay on the low end of fair".)
The second type of request - which is for a formal, written, insurable, usable-in-court Capital-A "Appraisal" is where there might be more potential for a conflict of interest, but if we as dealers are clear this is the job we're being hired for then we're going to issue a valuation which is based on published price guides (and the appropriate disclaimer that is is retail replacement value, not necessarily the price a dealer will pay).
Hope that clears it up - and thank you for the comment.
how specific is the hobby? are folks generalist collectors or do people go deep on a specific region/period?
All of the above! There are people who are SUPER specific -- they collect only a single series (say, Buffalo Nickels from 1913-1938), some people who only collect a very specific type within a series (Buffalo Nickels from San Francisco in MS65 or better), and generalists who just like anything that's pretty or interesting or gold or silver or from their hometown, etc.
There are 1001 ways to collect and it's fun to meet all the different folks and learn about their different approaches.
There are 1001 ways to collect and it's fun to meet all the different folks and learn about their different approaches.
I've been self-employed for the last ~18 months. In the past I started two VC-backed startups, then was a PM at some later-stage companies before returning to entrepreneurship.
This time around, I'm building a solo "digital product studio" [1] instead of a startup. So, I'm staying one person, haven't raised money, and have multiple revenue-generating products. Product revenue doesn't cover my costs yet, so I do occasional consulting to bridge the gap.
I like the flexibility of this lifestyle. I'm based in NYC, but writing this from Tokyo where I've been doing a creative residence for the past two weeks.
And, a fun technicality - I truly self-employed in the sense that I have a salary and a payroll system. This is because my company is registered as an S-Corp in the USA, which requires the owner to be on a salary.
[1] https://www.contraption.co/essays/digital-product-studios/
This time around, I'm building a solo "digital product studio" [1] instead of a startup. So, I'm staying one person, haven't raised money, and have multiple revenue-generating products. Product revenue doesn't cover my costs yet, so I do occasional consulting to bridge the gap.
I like the flexibility of this lifestyle. I'm based in NYC, but writing this from Tokyo where I've been doing a creative residence for the past two weeks.
And, a fun technicality - I truly self-employed in the sense that I have a salary and a payroll system. This is because my company is registered as an S-Corp in the USA, which requires the owner to be on a salary.
[1] https://www.contraption.co/essays/digital-product-studios/
I have a similar story. I’ve been self-employed for the last 6 months after 14 years of startups. Started out as an engineer in TN, and moved to SF a couple years ago where I got into management just in time to help with rounds of layoffs. Got some severe burnout, quit, and now I’m working on my own products while doing consulting/contracting on the side through my agency. I live fulltime in an RV traveling the country and working remotely. At the moment, I never want to work for someone else again.
How do you find work? I've been trying to start a similar consultancy but I've had a hard time finding organizations who don't want staff augmentation.
So far, 100% through referrals from my past connections.
> And, a fun technicality - I truly self-employed in the sense that I have a salary and a payroll system.
That's how most devs here in Norway would do it. Make a "proper" company, where you own 100 % of the shares. Then hire yourself, and pay yourself salary, withhold taxes, pay into a pension program etc. Mainly because if you make good money, it's better to leave some of it in the company (and for instance re-invest it into some index funds or something), instead of taking it out immediately as salary and getting it taxed before re-investing. But then still take enough salary to cover your expenses, get social security benefits etc.
That's how most devs here in Norway would do it. Make a "proper" company, where you own 100 % of the shares. Then hire yourself, and pay yourself salary, withhold taxes, pay into a pension program etc. Mainly because if you make good money, it's better to leave some of it in the company (and for instance re-invest it into some index funds or something), instead of taking it out immediately as salary and getting it taxed before re-investing. But then still take enough salary to cover your expenses, get social security benefits etc.
doesn't the 'company' itself also pay taxes on the income?
For most solo folks in the US, the revenue flows directly to you. You could set up a more complex corporate structure to hold the income that you don't pay to yourself, but that corporation would itself have to pay taxes on the income too. I suspect there's not any real savings/benefit until there's enough 'leftover' money to start getting creative/flexible.
For most solo folks in the US, the revenue flows directly to you. You could set up a more complex corporate structure to hold the income that you don't pay to yourself, but that corporation would itself have to pay taxes on the income too. I suspect there's not any real savings/benefit until there's enough 'leftover' money to start getting creative/flexible.
At least in the US that's true only for a C-corp. S-corps are pass-through entities. So it works like this very simplified example:
Business gross earnings: $200,000
Owner salary: $60,000
All other expenses including employer-side payroll tax: $20,000
Year-end result:
Owner receives a W2 reporting $60,000 in wages, which is taxed for Social Security, Medicare, and a special "self-employment tax". These wages are also eligible for deductions for retirement plan contributions (but not section 125 cafeteria plan deductions). Owner receives a K1 reporting $200k - $60k - $20k = $120,000 profit, which is taxed at the owner's individual income tax rate.
The business itself will not pay corporate tax on its profits like a C-corp would.
Business gross earnings: $200,000
Owner salary: $60,000
All other expenses including employer-side payroll tax: $20,000
Year-end result:
Owner receives a W2 reporting $60,000 in wages, which is taxed for Social Security, Medicare, and a special "self-employment tax". These wages are also eligible for deductions for retirement plan contributions (but not section 125 cafeteria plan deductions). Owner receives a K1 reporting $200k - $60k - $20k = $120,000 profit, which is taxed at the owner's individual income tax rate.
The business itself will not pay corporate tax on its profits like a C-corp would.
Company taxes are paid based on the profit. If you spend all the company income, on salaries or equipment or whatever, there’s no profit, and thus no taxes.
Yup, it's the same here. So there is a tax on the profit of the year that you let remain in the company, but it's a much lower tax than a wage tax. So it's better to leave it in the company until you need it, instead of paying a high marginal tax rate on taking it out as wage immediately.
Not all expenses are deductible, or 100% deductible in one year.
The biggest issue we've seen in software was the 2017 tax act, affecting software R&D starting in 2022. Depending on how you classify those expenses, you could have a sizeable tax bill, even without any 'profit'. But even hardware - that's typically going to be amortized over minimally a few years.
Bring in $200k in revenue. Spend $20k on hardware. You may only get to deduct $4k of that hardware expense in each of the next 5 years.
The biggest issue we've seen in software was the 2017 tax act, affecting software R&D starting in 2022. Depending on how you classify those expenses, you could have a sizeable tax bill, even without any 'profit'. But even hardware - that's typically going to be amortized over minimally a few years.
Bring in $200k in revenue. Spend $20k on hardware. You may only get to deduct $4k of that hardware expense in each of the next 5 years.
But are you doing R&D for your company when you're hiring yourself out as a consultant? Sounds weird if it's so categorical.
This is an excellent question and is, I have found, one that is being surprisingly ignored through all the hubub around section 174 / software / R&D, considering how many consulting shops and agencies are out there doing contract software development.
As best as I can determine, through reading the IRS's guidance and consulting with an industry expert, the answer is that doing software dev as a contractor/consultant does not qualify as R&D activities that must be capitalized if you're the contractor/consultant. Here is the language with a guiding example w/ analysis. The key being that the contractor bears no "financial risk" or right to use the software for its own purposes.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-23-63.pdf
SECTION 6. RESEARCH PERFORMED UNDER CONTRACT .01 Purpose. The Treasury Department and the IRS intend to propose rules in forthcoming proposed regulations consistent with the interim guidance provided in this section 6, which provides taxpayers with clarity in determining whether costs paid or incurred for research performed under contract are SRE expenditures under § 174. .02 Defined terms. For purposes of this section 6: -27- (1) Research provider. The term research provider means the party that contracts with a research recipient (as defined in section 6.02(2) of this notice) to: (a) perform research services for the research recipient with respect to an SRE product, or (b) develop an SRE product (as defined in section 6.02(4) of this notice) that the research recipient acquires from the research provider. (2) Research recipient. The term research recipient means the party that contracts with the research provider to: (a) perform research services for the research recipient with respect to an SRE product, or (b) develop an SRE product that the research recipient acquires from the research provider. (3) Financial risk. The term financial risk means the risk that the research provider may suffer a financial loss related to the failure of the research to produce the desired SRE product. (4) SRE product. The term SRE product means any pilot model, process, formula, invention, technique, patent, computer software, or similar property (or a component thereof) that is subject to protection under applicable domestic or foreign law. For example, mere know-how gained by a research provider through the performance of research services for a research recipient that is not subject to protection under applicable domestic or foreign law does not give rise to an SRE product in the hands of the research provider. .03 Treatment of costs paid or incurred by research recipient. The treatment of costs -28- paid or incurred by the research recipient is governed by the principles set forth in § 1.174-2(a)(10) and (b)(3). .04 Treatment of costs paid or incurred by research provider. If the research provider bears financial risk under the terms of the contract with the research recipient, then costs paid or incurred by the research provider that are incident to the SRE activities (see section 4.03 of this notice) performed by the research provider under the contract are SRE expenditures. However, even if the research provider does not bear financial risk under the terms of the contract with the research recipient, if the research provider has a right to use any resulting SRE product in the trade or business of the research provider or otherwise exploit any resulting SRE product through sale, lease, or license, then costs paid or incurred by the research provider that are incident to the SRE activities performed by the research provider under the contract are SRE expenditures of the research provider for which no deduction is allowed except as provided in § 174(a)(2), regardless of whether the research recipient is required to treat its costs as SRE expenditures under section 6.03 of this notice. For purposes of the preceding sentence, a research provider will not be treated as having a right to use the SRE product in the trade or business of the research provider or otherwise exploit the SRE product through sale, lease, or license if such right is available to the research provider only upon obtaining approval from another party to the research arrangement that is not related to the research provider within the meaning of § 267 or § 707. .05 Example. The following example illustrates the rules set forth in section 6 of this notice. (1) Facts. Company C engages Company D, a contractor located in the United -29- States, to develop an SRE product for use in Company C’s trade or business. The activities undertaken by Company D are undertaken upon Company C’s order, and Company D makes no performance guarantees with respect to the SRE product. Company C will pay Company D a fixed sum of $25,000 plus an amount equivalent to Company D’s actual expenditures. Company D does not have any right to use or otherwise exploit any resulting SRE product. In 2023, Company D incurs $125,000 of expenditures to successfully develop the product in the United States, and Company C pays to Company D $150,000 pursuant to the terms of the contract. (2) Analysis. Under section 6.04 of this notice, Company D may not treat the $125,000 of expenditures it incurs to develop the SRE product on behalf of Company C as SRE expenditures under § 174 because (i) Company D does not bear financial risk, and (ii) Company D does not have any right to use or otherwise exploit any resulting SRE product. Under section 6.03 of this notice, the $150,000 paid by Company C is an amount paid to another party for research or experimentation undertaken on Company C’s behalf under § 1.174-2(a)(10) and (b)(3) and is thus an SRE expenditure under section 4.02(2) of this notice. The applicable § 174 amortization period is 5 years (60 months) because the research is performed by Company D in the United States. Company C’s location is not relevant for determination of the applicable § 174 amortization period.
As best as I can determine, through reading the IRS's guidance and consulting with an industry expert, the answer is that doing software dev as a contractor/consultant does not qualify as R&D activities that must be capitalized if you're the contractor/consultant. Here is the language with a guiding example w/ analysis. The key being that the contractor bears no "financial risk" or right to use the software for its own purposes.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-23-63.pdf
SECTION 6. RESEARCH PERFORMED UNDER CONTRACT .01 Purpose. The Treasury Department and the IRS intend to propose rules in forthcoming proposed regulations consistent with the interim guidance provided in this section 6, which provides taxpayers with clarity in determining whether costs paid or incurred for research performed under contract are SRE expenditures under § 174. .02 Defined terms. For purposes of this section 6: -27- (1) Research provider. The term research provider means the party that contracts with a research recipient (as defined in section 6.02(2) of this notice) to: (a) perform research services for the research recipient with respect to an SRE product, or (b) develop an SRE product (as defined in section 6.02(4) of this notice) that the research recipient acquires from the research provider. (2) Research recipient. The term research recipient means the party that contracts with the research provider to: (a) perform research services for the research recipient with respect to an SRE product, or (b) develop an SRE product that the research recipient acquires from the research provider. (3) Financial risk. The term financial risk means the risk that the research provider may suffer a financial loss related to the failure of the research to produce the desired SRE product. (4) SRE product. The term SRE product means any pilot model, process, formula, invention, technique, patent, computer software, or similar property (or a component thereof) that is subject to protection under applicable domestic or foreign law. For example, mere know-how gained by a research provider through the performance of research services for a research recipient that is not subject to protection under applicable domestic or foreign law does not give rise to an SRE product in the hands of the research provider. .03 Treatment of costs paid or incurred by research recipient. The treatment of costs -28- paid or incurred by the research recipient is governed by the principles set forth in § 1.174-2(a)(10) and (b)(3). .04 Treatment of costs paid or incurred by research provider. If the research provider bears financial risk under the terms of the contract with the research recipient, then costs paid or incurred by the research provider that are incident to the SRE activities (see section 4.03 of this notice) performed by the research provider under the contract are SRE expenditures. However, even if the research provider does not bear financial risk under the terms of the contract with the research recipient, if the research provider has a right to use any resulting SRE product in the trade or business of the research provider or otherwise exploit any resulting SRE product through sale, lease, or license, then costs paid or incurred by the research provider that are incident to the SRE activities performed by the research provider under the contract are SRE expenditures of the research provider for which no deduction is allowed except as provided in § 174(a)(2), regardless of whether the research recipient is required to treat its costs as SRE expenditures under section 6.03 of this notice. For purposes of the preceding sentence, a research provider will not be treated as having a right to use the SRE product in the trade or business of the research provider or otherwise exploit the SRE product through sale, lease, or license if such right is available to the research provider only upon obtaining approval from another party to the research arrangement that is not related to the research provider within the meaning of § 267 or § 707. .05 Example. The following example illustrates the rules set forth in section 6 of this notice. (1) Facts. Company C engages Company D, a contractor located in the United -29- States, to develop an SRE product for use in Company C’s trade or business. The activities undertaken by Company D are undertaken upon Company C’s order, and Company D makes no performance guarantees with respect to the SRE product. Company C will pay Company D a fixed sum of $25,000 plus an amount equivalent to Company D’s actual expenditures. Company D does not have any right to use or otherwise exploit any resulting SRE product. In 2023, Company D incurs $125,000 of expenditures to successfully develop the product in the United States, and Company C pays to Company D $150,000 pursuant to the terms of the contract. (2) Analysis. Under section 6.04 of this notice, Company D may not treat the $125,000 of expenditures it incurs to develop the SRE product on behalf of Company C as SRE expenditures under § 174 because (i) Company D does not bear financial risk, and (ii) Company D does not have any right to use or otherwise exploit any resulting SRE product. Under section 6.03 of this notice, the $150,000 paid by Company C is an amount paid to another party for research or experimentation undertaken on Company C’s behalf under § 1.174-2(a)(10) and (b)(3) and is thus an SRE expenditure under section 4.02(2) of this notice. The applicable § 174 amortization period is 5 years (60 months) because the research is performed by Company D in the United States. Company C’s location is not relevant for determination of the applicable § 174 amortization period.
This is super cool! I was/am a startup founder too, bootstrapped an open source project, raised VC money, but ultimately it didn't work out. Now thinking about a solo business again and the studio model was exactly what I was looking at. How did you decide what to build?
My first product Postcard [1] is a personal website builder. I built that because I thought a personal website maker made logical sense as an indie business, and I wanted a way to stay in touch with friends after I deleted social media. But, it's hard to scale - user acquisition is the name of the game, willingness to pay is lower, the product isn't super differentiated, and I don't have a lot of experience in B2C. So, it makes money and continues to grow - but is small in absolute terms.
I decided to work on a more ambitious project that I had been thinking about for years, inspired by a product I wanted at my last startup, and by the chaos of being in 100+ slack channels at a previous job. I hate how people use Discord + Slack - they're good for urgent communications, but we need a "low-attention" version for important communications in communities and at work. So, I started building this product last Summer.
Booklet is an async, newsletter-first community platform [2]. Something like Google Groups with the polish of Slack. Booklet's far more complex than Postcard, but plays into my skills more - such as complex permissions systems, email marketing infrastructure, B2B sales, and being able to incorporate all the latest OpenAI goodies quickly. I launched it about three months ago, it has revenue, and I've been scrambling to build things in response to user feedback. I'm thinking of doing a bit of a relaunch next week as some foundational flows come together, such as full PWA support, search, and Stripe member sync.
Coincidentally - the project I launched to dogfood Booklet, called FRCTNL [3], is doing quite well. I had no intention of monetizing it, but I included a referral link to the accounting service I use. People have been using that referral link, and last quarter FRCTNL was my highest-earning product.
I'm sure in a few years I will have some great stories after the fact about the lessons I was missing in plain sight. But, things feel a little chaotic, uncertain, and fun at the moment. The core theme is building things that I want. My main insight so far has been to build unique, differentiated products that I want to use myself.
[1] https://postcard.page
[2] https://booklet.group
[3] https://frctnl.xyz
I decided to work on a more ambitious project that I had been thinking about for years, inspired by a product I wanted at my last startup, and by the chaos of being in 100+ slack channels at a previous job. I hate how people use Discord + Slack - they're good for urgent communications, but we need a "low-attention" version for important communications in communities and at work. So, I started building this product last Summer.
Booklet is an async, newsletter-first community platform [2]. Something like Google Groups with the polish of Slack. Booklet's far more complex than Postcard, but plays into my skills more - such as complex permissions systems, email marketing infrastructure, B2B sales, and being able to incorporate all the latest OpenAI goodies quickly. I launched it about three months ago, it has revenue, and I've been scrambling to build things in response to user feedback. I'm thinking of doing a bit of a relaunch next week as some foundational flows come together, such as full PWA support, search, and Stripe member sync.
Coincidentally - the project I launched to dogfood Booklet, called FRCTNL [3], is doing quite well. I had no intention of monetizing it, but I included a referral link to the accounting service I use. People have been using that referral link, and last quarter FRCTNL was my highest-earning product.
I'm sure in a few years I will have some great stories after the fact about the lessons I was missing in plain sight. But, things feel a little chaotic, uncertain, and fun at the moment. The core theme is building things that I want. My main insight so far has been to build unique, differentiated products that I want to use myself.
[1] https://postcard.page
[2] https://booklet.group
[3] https://frctnl.xyz
Very interesting, I like the idea of frctl. Signed up.
What avenues did you go through to reach VC funding?
Prior connections, or other points of communication?
It was a little bit of everything, to be honest.
I hate to have to ask this but how do you manage healthcare being a solo s-corp? I was under the impression this could only be done through a company if two unrelated family members owned the company? The only other alternative is "Obamacare"? I could be totally wrong.
Speaking as someone who has been mostly self-employed since about 2002, Obamacare is a godsend. Massively better than the old individual "underwriting" system that basically made it impossible to get coverage. Yes, health insurance is expensive, but you may be amazed that the ACA marketplace plans frequently cost less than employer plans with better market protections. The only way to do health insurance nowadays is to assume it's only for catastrophes; ie: an $8-15k deductible is nothing compared to a $250k hospital visit. Basically, you are buying a discount plan (your insurer's negotiated rates) plus a stop-loss cover. An example: I am an old fart at 63 and have an HSA plan with a $7,500 deductible. My premium is $900/mo, thus the MOST I will ever have to pay for health care in any 12 month period is $18,300. Way less than a $300k uncomplicated heart attack or a $1M cancer diagnosis. Work your tax returns right, and you can get subsidies that reduce the annual costs even more . . .
It's probably worth remembering this sort of thing when people say there is no difference between the parties. Every Republican voted against it, they almost repealed it, and apparently are gearing up for another crack at repeal https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/01/trump-o...
At your age, you'll likely be on Medicare soon either way, but some of us are still decades away.
At your age, you'll likely be on Medicare soon either way, but some of us are still decades away.
I truly am waiting for Medicare (traditional only, no Advantage plans as those are a complete rip-off). I can tell you though, I've been continuously on the ACA since it started selling plans in 2012 and it's always been better than anything I could cobble together before. It's fantastic to be able to decide how and where I want to live my life without being locked into a shitty job or tied to a crap insurer because you can't pass underwriting to get on a different plan.
Also, I am on the highest ACA premium tier because of my age. Someone who's 35 could get the same policy I have for about $400/mo., unsubsidised.
Also, I am on the highest ACA premium tier because of my age. Someone who's 35 could get the same policy I have for about $400/mo., unsubsidised.
Thank you - as someone with a bit of disability and facing future hip surgery, that's a helpful perspective. You're not far off on my age; I actually aged off my parents insurance right around the time the ACA passed and so I was able to get back on because of that law which extended parental coverage until 26. I'm currently quite happy with most aspects of my employment which includes my health insurance, but that situation never seems to last.
Are you able to purchase a PPO plan in your state?
I found a broker who would give me insurance for one person, but the offering wasn't good. So, I'm on a mediocre Helathcare.gov plan.
This article has good details:
https://www.collective.com/blog/health-insurance-for-s-corps
This article has good details:
https://www.collective.com/blog/health-insurance-for-s-corps
> unrelated family members
Is such a thing even possible?
Is such a thing even possible?
I'd love to know this as well!
This is awesome! Nice work. This model was a dream of mine for a while -- I generally love being solo but even a small group of 3-6 people working on a revenue-generating digital product studio has so much potential to be super super fun. Good luck with it and keep us posted!
Wow! I’m working on the same thing at https://stackstudio.dev right now. Your blog post was really eloquent, it’s always inspiring when someone else shares your idea. Best of luck.
Thanks! I'm trying to do more essay writing there [1]. Most indie makers seem to have some content strategy where they share their story. I avoid social media and don't desire to become a Youtuber, so I'm focusing on writing as a content channel. I'm focusing essays on my creative process, inspiration, and specific experiences as an operator - the stuff I want to read. I'm avoiding prospective predictions about the future, being negative (an actual self-imposed rule), and talking about things that feel more like theory than practice.
The next piece I plan to publish tomorrow will be a recap of a talk I gave over the weekend, covering how most of our knowledge work practices come from factories, and ways software engineers are at the forefront of changing those industrial-era practices.
P.S. - if you're ever in NYC, come join for a dinner of Dimes Square Ventures [2], which is a little community I run for local indie makers (using Booklet!)
[1] https://contraption.co/essays
[2] https://dimessquareventures.com
The next piece I plan to publish tomorrow will be a recap of a talk I gave over the weekend, covering how most of our knowledge work practices come from factories, and ways software engineers are at the forefront of changing those industrial-era practices.
P.S. - if you're ever in NYC, come join for a dinner of Dimes Square Ventures [2], which is a little community I run for local indie makers (using Booklet!)
[1] https://contraption.co/essays
[2] https://dimessquareventures.com
I live in Hoboken :D sending you an email for dimessquare!
There is someone renting a room around Mount Fuji on AirBNB that advertises themselves as a systems engineer with fiber in the middle of the woods. Sounded like a great place to work to me!
Starlinks are starting to pop up on Airbnb listings.
Really cool - I’m in a similar boat, having created startups and also was a PM in senior roles at a few great companies. I’ve been consulting, which is fine, but wanted something with a little more connection to the project so I just set up https://metaluna.io and am aiming for something on the agency route. That said, I really like the way you’re thinking of a “digital project studio”. Is there a community of people doing this somewhere?
Same here! I've been running my own digital products (https://flat.social and some smaller ones) and bridging the gap with consulting. For me, the flexibility lead to a fully location-independent lifestyle which allowed me to work from places where I feel at my best. Currently writing this from a tropical patio in Brazil :)
Love the comparison against Grand Seiko. I'm a self-proclaimed watch nerd and owner of a Shunbun. Grand Seiko makes beautiful watches!
Isn’t it difficult for one person to market multiple products or websites? It’s hard enough getting traction for one product, let alone a portfolio?
After I sold my last company, I felt like my identity was overly tied to one product. So, I decided to build a company separate from the products, so that over time the products can change but I have a through line company brand.
When I started this comapny, I didn't have a product - but I had the holding company (Contraption Company). My first product was Postcard, but now I spend most of my time building Booklet. As the shift in products has happened, my professional email address has been the same, the terms of service have been shared between services, and I have a unified blog + announcements email list. This also means I can launch lightweight experiments such as "FRCTNL", and even if it's not commercially successful - I benefit from compounding returns in the brand and mailing list.
When I started this comapny, I didn't have a product - but I had the holding company (Contraption Company). My first product was Postcard, but now I spend most of my time building Booklet. As the shift in products has happened, my professional email address has been the same, the terms of service have been shared between services, and I have a unified blog + announcements email list. This also means I can launch lightweight experiments such as "FRCTNL", and even if it's not commercially successful - I benefit from compounding returns in the brand and mailing list.
I'm self employed in NYC and its a dream of mine to travel/work in Japan. I've sort of written the idea off that unless I can speak the language its going to be too difficult. Curious if you agree or not.
I speak zero Japanese. I've met a lot of immigrants here in the last couple of weeks, and it seems that you can get to a working level of Japaneses within a couple of months. After that, it seems that working for a Japanese company IRL is the biggest determinant of becoming fluent.
The good news it that Japan seems to be in desperate desire of skilled foreigners, and announced plans this week for a digital nomad visa: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/02/02/japan/society/d...
I've heard that the path from temporary visa to a more permanent one is somewhat straightforward for a self-employed person if you're able to show moderate revenue from Japanese clients.
The good news it that Japan seems to be in desperate desire of skilled foreigners, and announced plans this week for a digital nomad visa: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2024/02/02/japan/society/d...
I've heard that the path from temporary visa to a more permanent one is somewhat straightforward for a self-employed person if you're able to show moderate revenue from Japanese clients.
I thought NYC didn’t recognize the S-corp, so you end up paying the corporate tax rate. Has that changed?
Hasn't change, it's pretty terrible but my accountants thought it was marginally better. I've heard that some people get an office outside the city (such as Hoboken) to "work" outside the city.
Can you tell us a bit more about this creative residence and how did you get accepted there ?
Yes, it's called Almost Perfect. I previously followed the illustrator Luis who co-runs it, and applied back in 2022.
https://almostperfect.jp
However, the current "version" of Almost Perfect is ending in about a year, and I think they are fully booked until then:
https://www.instagram.com/almostperfecttokyo/p/C2PCMtpS_wq/
It's been a fun experience, though - I shared a house with an illustrator from LA. I spent time exploring Tokyo and working on Booklet. At the end, every resident gives a gallery - normally it's visual, such as drawings, but mine became a presentation.
https://almostperfect.jp
However, the current "version" of Almost Perfect is ending in about a year, and I think they are fully booked until then:
https://www.instagram.com/almostperfecttokyo/p/C2PCMtpS_wq/
It's been a fun experience, though - I shared a house with an illustrator from LA. I spent time exploring Tokyo and working on Booklet. At the end, every resident gives a gallery - normally it's visual, such as drawings, but mine became a presentation.
What is a creative residence?
Kind of like a structured professional sabbatical / workcation with a built-in community and some events. (I paid for it, to be clear.)
Here's a video one of the residents made about the program I did:
https://vimeo.com/350701368
Here's a video one of the residents made about the program I did:
https://vimeo.com/350701368
Interesting, what did you work on there?
I've been building Booklet features:
https://hq.booklet.group/posts
https://hq.booklet.group/posts
[deleted]
Self-employed on and off as a graphic and web design consultant since 2005 or so, with some time in offices, making websites with static generators, PHP/WordPress, and Python/Django, and print work with pencil, ink, paper, and graphics apps.
Tips:
1. Live simply and reduce expenses. Avoid debt if you can. Rice and beans recipe: https://hypertexthero.com/eat-play-read/
2. Try to be nice to other nice people and stay in touch with past co-workers, especially the nicest ones. They make the best bosses or clients later. Don’t burn bridges unless there is no other option.
3. Always be working on a project for yourself that you enjoy and can learn new skills from. If the project could be useful for others, clean it up a bit and share it.
4. Use a paper weekly planner and write down things to do and cross them out when they’re done. Write ideas and things to look up here. Have a drawer or cardboard box in which you throw pieces of paper with ideas written on them. Open the drawer and pick a random piece of paper when feeling stuck.
5. Look in the mirror now and again and ask yourself if you are happy with the upcoming day. If there are too many days in a row when you’re not, time to change, move, etc.
More: https://hypertexthero.com/reignite-passion/
Tips:
1. Live simply and reduce expenses. Avoid debt if you can. Rice and beans recipe: https://hypertexthero.com/eat-play-read/
2. Try to be nice to other nice people and stay in touch with past co-workers, especially the nicest ones. They make the best bosses or clients later. Don’t burn bridges unless there is no other option.
3. Always be working on a project for yourself that you enjoy and can learn new skills from. If the project could be useful for others, clean it up a bit and share it.
4. Use a paper weekly planner and write down things to do and cross them out when they’re done. Write ideas and things to look up here. Have a drawer or cardboard box in which you throw pieces of paper with ideas written on them. Open the drawer and pick a random piece of paper when feeling stuck.
5. Look in the mirror now and again and ask yourself if you are happy with the upcoming day. If there are too many days in a row when you’re not, time to change, move, etc.
More: https://hypertexthero.com/reignite-passion/
The first tip about being self-employed is funny and telling:
> 1. Live simply and reduce expenses. Avoid debt if you can. Rice and beans recipe:
Some people can make really good money self-employed, but for the rest of us (including myself), salaried employment would've been much easier.
Also, a period of lower income will keep paying negative dividends afterwards, because it's expensive to be poor. There might also be long-term impact of stress, if the lower income and uncertainty of being self-employed had more net bad stress than the corporate job would've. (Though corporate BS as an employee can be the worst stress, worse than not knowing whether you can keep your self-employed business afloat.)
> 1. Live simply and reduce expenses. Avoid debt if you can. Rice and beans recipe:
Some people can make really good money self-employed, but for the rest of us (including myself), salaried employment would've been much easier.
Also, a period of lower income will keep paying negative dividends afterwards, because it's expensive to be poor. There might also be long-term impact of stress, if the lower income and uncertainty of being self-employed had more net bad stress than the corporate job would've. (Though corporate BS as an employee can be the worst stress, worse than not knowing whether you can keep your self-employed business afloat.)
Being self employed is not for the faint-hearted. You get to work long hours, for irregular pay, for lots of different bosses (I mean customers), and as a bonus (if you succeed) you get to deal with difficult staff.
And those are the good bits...
On the other hand you are more in control. You decide what to work on, and when. You decide how many zoom meetings to have (well, sort of.) You won't be laid off (although you might not get paid.) There's no office politics, and no boss to get jn your way.
Sure it can end up being financially rewarding, but a good job, with good investing, likely comes out ahead.
And those are the good bits...
On the other hand you are more in control. You decide what to work on, and when. You decide how many zoom meetings to have (well, sort of.) You won't be laid off (although you might not get paid.) There's no office politics, and no boss to get jn your way.
Sure it can end up being financially rewarding, but a good job, with good investing, likely comes out ahead.
> Live simply and reduce expenses.
Besides the obvious message here (less spending, more money to save), the simple life is that gives you less headache and burden of administration, which is a huge pro when it comes to "being on your own" (eg managing yourself as a business).
In general, minimalistic lifestyle xnot owning stuff (especially expensive stuff like a car, home, etc) gives so much freedom...
Besides the obvious message here (less spending, more money to save), the simple life is that gives you less headache and burden of administration, which is a huge pro when it comes to "being on your own" (eg managing yourself as a business).
In general, minimalistic lifestyle xnot owning stuff (especially expensive stuff like a car, home, etc) gives so much freedom...
Are you still finding clients for static websites and Wordpress? I got out of that game six years ago and am considering getting back in as a side-hustle. It seems though that most of that freelance work has dried up.
Mainly previous clients I’d worked with before, with occasional new ones.
Meeting in person and getting along with your client is important.
https://www.miltonglaser.com/files/Essays-10things-8400.pdf
Meeting in person and getting along with your client is important.
https://www.miltonglaser.com/files/Essays-10things-8400.pdf
I am a self-employed furniture maker. I'm that guy who somewhat infamously no longer builds software[0]. About a year ago I moved my operations from a makerspace to my own shop. That's come with its ups and downs.
On the one hand, I know which idiot last used a tool: me.
On the other, I would no longer see other humans besides my wife most weeks. To keep sane I also work one day a week at a bike shop fixing bikes. It's something I'd done on a volunteer basis many years back.
The unexpected nice thing about this is that it gives me projects that are an hour or two in size in addition to the many-week sized projects that I do as part of my business. It's sort of like getting to fix a small bug in the midst of adding a big feature; it lets me pop out of the big project for a bit and see something else through from start to finish and see some tangible progress before diving back into a long-running project that moves forward in fits and starts.
Beyond getting to tackle some bite-sized projects, I'd say the thing that sustains me is getting to work with clients. It's tons of fun when people come to me with a vision that we can iterate on and bring into reality. And then the flip side is also rewarding: getting to scratch an itch and turn a design I've been turning over in my mind into reality.
Edited to add: If you've got an idea for a furniture or woodworking project, my contact info and website are in my profile.
https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149...
On the one hand, I know which idiot last used a tool: me.
On the other, I would no longer see other humans besides my wife most weeks. To keep sane I also work one day a week at a bike shop fixing bikes. It's something I'd done on a volunteer basis many years back.
The unexpected nice thing about this is that it gives me projects that are an hour or two in size in addition to the many-week sized projects that I do as part of my business. It's sort of like getting to fix a small bug in the midst of adding a big feature; it lets me pop out of the big project for a bit and see something else through from start to finish and see some tangible progress before diving back into a long-running project that moves forward in fits and starts.
Beyond getting to tackle some bite-sized projects, I'd say the thing that sustains me is getting to work with clients. It's tons of fun when people come to me with a vision that we can iterate on and bring into reality. And then the flip side is also rewarding: getting to scratch an itch and turn a design I've been turning over in my mind into reality.
Edited to add: If you've got an idea for a furniture or woodworking project, my contact info and website are in my profile.
https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149...
Hah I remember seeing this issue. It made me chuckle. I also do wood working part time, it's kinda funny how similar software and woodworking are. I'm hoping to open up a hobby shop one day that teaches both software and woodworking. Congrats to you on following your dreams.
I'd love to hear more about this. I'm a software developer by day and woodworking is a huge passion. Alas due to full time job, kids and other commitments, I don't have much time for it at the moment.
Did you start off with woodworking as a hobby? If so, has it affected your enjoyment now it's a job?
What pitfalls did you find when you first started out?
Did you start off with woodworking as a hobby? If so, has it affected your enjoyment now it's a job?
What pitfalls did you find when you first started out?
I'm sorry you don't much time to pursue it; It's a delight to get to build things!
I might be a little weird in that I started woodworking by taking classes to explore it as a possible career change. I took some evening classes, followed by some week-long classes to see how it would feel to do it all day for a full week. It's not directly comparable, but it was close enough.
Given that I got into this with the intent of it possibly being a job instead of going from hobby to career, I'm not sure I have a good basis for answering whether doing it for work has sucked the enjoyment out of it. I love building stuff, and when I get tired of doing one kind of project, I seek out other types. Sometimes I quote something lower than I otherwise would if it's something I'd like to do (or vice-versa). Honestly, I feel incredibly lucky to be able to do this for work.
The parts that do sometimes wear me down are the non-woodworking parts. Today I'm in front of my computer getting my books finalized to get a P&L to my accountant for our taxes. I can enthusiastically recommend FreshBooks for having excellent support, but damn, bookkeeping is not my thing.
Figuring out how to market the product is also a trick; I don't have a background in that, and I'm probably overlooking opportunities as a result.
Keeping a website up to date is sometimes kind of a hassle. My wife does most of the nuts-and-bolts work (because otherwise I'd get hung up on stupid stuff that doesn't matter), but I'm still very much a part of generating the content.
As for pitfalls, I guess the above has pretty well covered it :-D Figuring out the non-woodworking aspects is a continuous learning experience.
I might be a little weird in that I started woodworking by taking classes to explore it as a possible career change. I took some evening classes, followed by some week-long classes to see how it would feel to do it all day for a full week. It's not directly comparable, but it was close enough.
Given that I got into this with the intent of it possibly being a job instead of going from hobby to career, I'm not sure I have a good basis for answering whether doing it for work has sucked the enjoyment out of it. I love building stuff, and when I get tired of doing one kind of project, I seek out other types. Sometimes I quote something lower than I otherwise would if it's something I'd like to do (or vice-versa). Honestly, I feel incredibly lucky to be able to do this for work.
The parts that do sometimes wear me down are the non-woodworking parts. Today I'm in front of my computer getting my books finalized to get a P&L to my accountant for our taxes. I can enthusiastically recommend FreshBooks for having excellent support, but damn, bookkeeping is not my thing.
Figuring out how to market the product is also a trick; I don't have a background in that, and I'm probably overlooking opportunities as a result.
Keeping a website up to date is sometimes kind of a hassle. My wife does most of the nuts-and-bolts work (because otherwise I'd get hung up on stupid stuff that doesn't matter), but I'm still very much a part of generating the content.
As for pitfalls, I guess the above has pretty well covered it :-D Figuring out the non-woodworking aspects is a continuous learning experience.
I still find your comment hilarious
I've been working on https://webhook.site since 2016 when I posted it here on HN. In fall 2023, I quit my job to work on it full time, and it's one of the best decisions I've ever made. I have around 1400 subscribers, which is enough to pay myself a good salary. I've not done any funding or marketing so far.
Wow, I use your service all the time for misc testing and it's fantastic. Lean, responsive, and straight forward. I honestly didn't realize there way any paid option until I read this and took a look around the website to find it (I completely missed the upgrade button in the upper right).
I figured I'd mention that from a user's perspective to give you a data point. Great service!
I figured I'd mention that from a user's perspective to give you a data point. Great service!
Thanks for the feedback!
This looks really useful, I've used similar websites in the past but it's nice that it's all together here in one place.
If only you could not have it redirect on load, it makes the back button break. Clicking back to return to hackernews is almost impossible
If only you could not have it redirect on load, it makes the back button break. Clicking back to return to hackernews is almost impossible
> not have it redirect on load
I've not been able to reproduce this in neither Safari nor Chrome (https://sf.gl/share/1707213387.mp4), curious to know which browser you're using. Thanks!
I've not been able to reproduce this in neither Safari nor Chrome (https://sf.gl/share/1707213387.mp4), curious to know which browser you're using. Thanks!
Chrome on android
I tried it again now and it's working now
I tried it again now and it's working now
Press and hold the back, then select the one you want, works on many browsers
Jobs told everyone they're holding the phone wrong, but it's still shitty that it was broken to begin with.
Ctrl/cmd click back button
It's a great product. I have used to test things.
One feature that might not align perfectly with your service but definitely something I would use is Email to webhook forwarding and vice versa.
One feature that might not align perfectly with your service but definitely something I would use is Email to webhook forwarding and vice versa.
Thanks! You can do this with Custom Actions: https://docs.webhook.site/custom-actions.html :-)
I use it almost everyday at work! Thank you for making it.
Thank you for making this great tool.
nice! good job
Nice. I was just thinking of building something like this last week lol
I'm self employed for around 10 years now. Before that I was employed as frontend developer for around 7 years.
I started self employment as software consultant, which worked pretty well despite not having any connections from my previous employment. I only needed one or two projects a year to sustain my lifestyle. Getting two companies a year to accept your application isn't hard. If you write at least 5 applications a month, you need a success rate of less than 5%.
I changed to technical writing later, because text is less of a struggle than code, and educational articles that explain how to use software (e.g., services, tools, SDKs, frameworks, etc.) are paid pretty well, especially compared to the non-technical writing tasks. Regular software consulting projects take months and can haunt you for years. An article takes a few days and after that you can do other things you find interesting.
Via technical writing, I got into other kinds of text related jobs the software industry offers, like social media management (e.g., Twitter/X, newsletters, blogs) for companies with developer audiences.
Usually I work less than 20h a week and I can do it from everywhere, which allows me to travel often and having enough time off to enjoy it.
I started self employment as software consultant, which worked pretty well despite not having any connections from my previous employment. I only needed one or two projects a year to sustain my lifestyle. Getting two companies a year to accept your application isn't hard. If you write at least 5 applications a month, you need a success rate of less than 5%.
I changed to technical writing later, because text is less of a struggle than code, and educational articles that explain how to use software (e.g., services, tools, SDKs, frameworks, etc.) are paid pretty well, especially compared to the non-technical writing tasks. Regular software consulting projects take months and can haunt you for years. An article takes a few days and after that you can do other things you find interesting.
Via technical writing, I got into other kinds of text related jobs the software industry offers, like social media management (e.g., Twitter/X, newsletters, blogs) for companies with developer audiences.
Usually I work less than 20h a week and I can do it from everywhere, which allows me to travel often and having enough time off to enjoy it.
How do you get clients for tech writing, if I may ask? Are you maintaining a stable pool of companies and doing work as they need it, or do you always have to fish for new opportunities?
I've been authoring sw dev books that target a niche audience, and I've done some writing for the company that develops the sw itself. I'm wondering whether to expand to other areas, too—I've got the feeling that 2024 is going to be a rather challenging year, financially speaking.
As all articles I wrote under my own name (some are ghost writing) are implicit advertisement, most clients approached me after they read some of my pieces.
Over the years I got a hand full of stable clients. Some want content every month, some every quarter, etc.
Then there is word of mouth. The people I work with at my client companies are usually in the content business, so they need constant influx of quality content and know many other people who need it too.
I also work with a tech content agency, they always have a few articles a month I can work on, if business is slow.
Over the years I got a hand full of stable clients. Some want content every month, some every quarter, etc.
Then there is word of mouth. The people I work with at my client companies are usually in the content business, so they need constant influx of quality content and know many other people who need it too.
I also work with a tech content agency, they always have a few articles a month I can work on, if business is slow.
I had a couple of questions if you don't mind:
- I have a Business Analyst/Product Mgr background. I've never been a developer, but I can read code well enough and get a good idea of what's going on. Do I have a chance of breaking into this? How would I go about doing so (other than the obvious like trying to do it as part of my day job)? - Do you worry LLMs are going to put you out of business? - Very broadly speaking, could I make $150k doing this?
- I have a Business Analyst/Product Mgr background. I've never been a developer, but I can read code well enough and get a good idea of what's going on. Do I have a chance of breaking into this? How would I go about doing so (other than the obvious like trying to do it as part of my day job)? - Do you worry LLMs are going to put you out of business? - Very broadly speaking, could I make $150k doing this?
"Do I have a chance of breaking into this?"
In my experience, the success stands and falls with how well you can grasp technical topics and explain them to people who have less time than you to learn them.
I know a bunch of good writers, who never got far, because their technical understanding wasn't enough to write guides/tutorials/explainers.
"Do you worry LLMs are going to put you out of business?"
Not yet. I use LLM every quarter to write an article, and they've always been bad.
"Very broadly speaking, could I make $150k doing this"
Probably.
An article makes you between $500 and $1000, depending on the length and quality. If you could write 200 a year, that could work.
In my experience, the success stands and falls with how well you can grasp technical topics and explain them to people who have less time than you to learn them.
I know a bunch of good writers, who never got far, because their technical understanding wasn't enough to write guides/tutorials/explainers.
"Do you worry LLMs are going to put you out of business?"
Not yet. I use LLM every quarter to write an article, and they've always been bad.
"Very broadly speaking, could I make $150k doing this"
Probably.
An article makes you between $500 and $1000, depending on the length and quality. If you could write 200 a year, that could work.
Belated thanks for the reply.
Curious about this. How did you manage to build up a consulting business without prior contacts? You say you wrote applications, but normally companies aren't soliciting consultants in a public fashion (other than fiver/upwork which seem to be a race to the bottom).
Sure, the public platforms don't have the best paying projects.
But that's how I found my first clients. After 2-3 clients from such platforms, word of mouth did the rest.
I only went for projects that went 3-6 months, so I didn't need that many per year.
But that's how I found my first clients. After 2-3 clients from such platforms, word of mouth did the rest.
I only went for projects that went 3-6 months, so I didn't need that many per year.
Thanks, that's encouraging.
Where did you use to apply for contracts?
I am working on https://audiodiary.ai as a solo founder, I recently have been getting enough income to just about cover my living expenses and haven’t received any funding and didn’t do any marketing, with 9k users so far since launch last May. It’s fulfilling and great to see people use and love a product I’ve built. I’m obviously highly motivated to grow so it keeps me busy.
Congrats—That is awesome! Curious, how long did it take you to get your first customer?
It happened very soon after launch actually, maybe a few days. Because the name essentially is a search term, people were able to find it right away
This is such a good idea, I wish I’d thought of it. I have trouble maintaining consistency in journaling, but this makes it a heck of a lot easier. I just signed up - good luck!
Thanks very much for signing up! Any issues, questions, or ideas please contact me-you can directly email me from the app.
That's really amazing. You should start doing some marketing to accelerate the growth!
If you don't mind, can you share how much you're currently able to make from this?
If you don't mind, can you share how much you're currently able to make from this?
Thanks very much! I’d like to learn more about marketing to help me grow it. It’s hard to put an exact figure on it because it’s essentially growing every day which i’m so happy about, but recently it’s become just enough to sustain me. Perhaps at an entry level software engineering position
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I could not find any pricing options on your website.
In order to find how much your service would cost, i needed to create an account and also download the app.
You also did not specify which features would be locked behind a paywall.
Can you be more transparent about this? I like to know what i'm getting myself into before i start using a product.
In order to find how much your service would cost, i needed to create an account and also download the app.
You also did not specify which features would be locked behind a paywall.
Can you be more transparent about this? I like to know what i'm getting myself into before i start using a product.
Such a good point, I never thought of that and think it would add credibility to the product too. 90% of traffic comes from the app store and the pricing is shown there on Google and Apple, most people never see the landing page, but I think this would be good to add.
PS it’s about $30 for a year and $6 for a month (depending on your state/country)
PS it’s about $30 for a year and $6 for a month (depending on your state/country)
Looks cool. Would love to know pricing and how/where you store data?
Pricing depends on the country but have addressed that in another comment! The privacy policy explains how we store data but will make this clearer and more upfront. I store recordings separately from user info in an S3 bucket and the database is hosted in digital ocean. Recordings are sent to OpenAI for ephemeral analysis and transcription.
Can I export the recordings and the resulting (presumably text) diary?
Sorry missed this one. Yes you can, I actually put a lot of work into making this feature useful. You get all the recordings plus a PDF.
this is pretty cool. what stack did you use to build the app and how did you launch two native apps so quickly?
Self-employed, running https://buttondown.email as a solo founder. (My day generally looks like — 30% engineering, 40% onboarding + support, 10% marketing, 20% operations.) It was a profitable nights-and-weekends project from 2017—2022; took it full-time in 2022.
I think the thing that I would say about self-employment is that people understate the day-to-day flexibility and overstate the month-to-month flexibility. It is _addicting_ to be able to structure a given day exactly how you want it, and to take days off without having to worry about PTO; conversely, I've done a hither-to poor job of increasing my bus factor and it's tough to e.g. plan entire week-long vacations without knowing I'll need to carve out extra time afterwards to catch up on inbound issues.
Being self-employed is hard work for sure. I also _totally_ understand the cliche of "becoming a founder makes you un-hireable"; it's really hard to imagine going back to a traditional job after this, and I find it more fulfilling than anything else I've done in my career.
I think the thing that I would say about self-employment is that people understate the day-to-day flexibility and overstate the month-to-month flexibility. It is _addicting_ to be able to structure a given day exactly how you want it, and to take days off without having to worry about PTO; conversely, I've done a hither-to poor job of increasing my bus factor and it's tough to e.g. plan entire week-long vacations without knowing I'll need to carve out extra time afterwards to catch up on inbound issues.
Being self-employed is hard work for sure. I also _totally_ understand the cliche of "becoming a founder makes you un-hireable"; it's really hard to imagine going back to a traditional job after this, and I find it more fulfilling than anything else I've done in my career.
I have no need for an email sender at the moment, but I just wanted to say that I found your website and premise super simple to understand. I think the thing that often gets lost in large companies is that "tone" gets neutered. This copy reads like a person wrote it, rather than a large committee. Cheers.
Bookmarked for when I do need it!
Bookmarked for when I do need it!
> people understate the day-to-day flexibility and overstate the month-to-month flexibility
I completely agree! Somehow every day feels like you are free to do what you want, even take it off, but in the long-term it feels like you never really have free time at all, because your mind is always thinking about the business or feeling guilty for the time off, which could be spent to further improve the product.
I completely agree! Somehow every day feels like you are free to do what you want, even take it off, but in the long-term it feels like you never really have free time at all, because your mind is always thinking about the business or feeling guilty for the time off, which could be spent to further improve the product.
Many 9-5ers minds are always thinking of how to escape anyways, so at least you have something tangible to think about if you already have that business
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy thinking about how to improve my product, new marketing ideas etc., the issue is more how it affects the rest of your life, where your attention on other aspects of life might be diluted, as a result maybe you will spend less time thinking, for example, about what nice thing you could do for your partner.
In Poland, where I'm from, it's pretty much the norm to be self-employed in Poland in the IT sector.
I believe that around 50% of workers are technically contracted one-man companies, and this percentage is inversely correlated with the seniority level - the greater the earnings (and the sense of job security that goes along with expertise and experience), the greater the incentive.
Going B2B makes a substantial difference in terms of fiscal burdens. Other than that, your day-to-day work looks pretty much the same though. You're just sending monthly invoices to the same employer, typically a single one, sometimes for years on end.
I believe that around 50% of workers are technically contracted one-man companies, and this percentage is inversely correlated with the seniority level - the greater the earnings (and the sense of job security that goes along with expertise and experience), the greater the incentive.
Going B2B makes a substantial difference in terms of fiscal burdens. Other than that, your day-to-day work looks pretty much the same though. You're just sending monthly invoices to the same employer, typically a single one, sometimes for years on end.
That's for tax reasons only though, technically it is just another form of long term employment. As soon as you have multiple customers that you send invoices to with some regularity and you have autonomy would you pass the 'self employed' test in other countries. If you refer to them as your client and you only have one then you're technically an employee, if you refer to your contact at your client as 'your boss' then you also are an employee.
We have a lot of this in NL as well, the long term effect is the slow erosion of the social safety net. Because good luck if your client decides they no longer need your services, suddenly you find out what the downside of being self employed is. Nothing to fall back on. So save like your life depends on it.
We have a lot of this in NL as well, the long term effect is the slow erosion of the social safety net. Because good luck if your client decides they no longer need your services, suddenly you find out what the downside of being self employed is. Nothing to fall back on. So save like your life depends on it.
I can't see why a company couldn't have one long-term customer. It's not unusual eg. in the building sector (where large construction projects, not unlike software projects, can take years to complete).
Another common example is MDs - quite a lot of private doctor's offices are contracted by the National Health Fund, basically providing their services for the public healthcare that way.
Clearly having multiple customers isn't a reasonable requirement for a small company. Software engineering isn't like private residential plumbing - "sink drain unclogged, next please!" :)
> good luck if your client decides they no longer need your services, suddenly you find out what the downside of being self employed is.
That goes without saying, and the same obviously applies if you're running a "regular" company, with employees, like a restaurant or whatever.
The risk is arguably even greater, as you will usually pile up some financial obligations (such as credits) and other commodities limiting your financial fluidity (remember Covid? Restaurant owners do).
By the way, you can insure yourself against loss of income. Many insurance companies offer this service.
Another common example is MDs - quite a lot of private doctor's offices are contracted by the National Health Fund, basically providing their services for the public healthcare that way.
Clearly having multiple customers isn't a reasonable requirement for a small company. Software engineering isn't like private residential plumbing - "sink drain unclogged, next please!" :)
> good luck if your client decides they no longer need your services, suddenly you find out what the downside of being self employed is.
That goes without saying, and the same obviously applies if you're running a "regular" company, with employees, like a restaurant or whatever.
The risk is arguably even greater, as you will usually pile up some financial obligations (such as credits) and other commodities limiting your financial fluidity (remember Covid? Restaurant owners do).
By the way, you can insure yourself against loss of income. Many insurance companies offer this service.
This is definitely a source of friction with the tax service.
A couple of years ago, the Dutch tax service was trying to tackle the problem of fake self-employed people who were really just employees without the same rights, pensions, etc. The Dutch postal service PostNL was notorious for firing firing all their mail deliverers and hiring them back as self-employed people who still had to wear their uniform and work according to their schedule. And somehow the tax service approved that. But self-employed programmers who hop between big projects, negotiate their own pay (which tends to the high side) and have a lot of control over the projects they work on and the way they work on them, suddenly have to prove that they're really "zelfstandig", self-sufficient.
It's frustrating. I recently went back to regular employment and I hated it. Tons of extra rules, limited vacation days, and significantly lower pay. I guess I prefer being in control, saving for my own retirement, and going on vacation as often or as little as I like. Seriously, how many vacation days I had left used to give me stress. It's significantly healthier for me to be self-employed.
The way I see it: if a large company can have a single client and just rent out all their employees to that single company, why can't a small one-man company do the same?
And I think I'm a lot more self-sufficient than that company; if my contract ends, I can easily get a new contract elsewhere for myself. But if their contract ends, they need to find new work for all of their employees at once, and they'll likely fire some or all of them, making the whole job security argument moot. Their risk is higher than mine, and their security isn't. I really think having lots of self-employed contractors like me is better for the industry than the overhead of having to organise into companies.
A couple of years ago, the Dutch tax service was trying to tackle the problem of fake self-employed people who were really just employees without the same rights, pensions, etc. The Dutch postal service PostNL was notorious for firing firing all their mail deliverers and hiring them back as self-employed people who still had to wear their uniform and work according to their schedule. And somehow the tax service approved that. But self-employed programmers who hop between big projects, negotiate their own pay (which tends to the high side) and have a lot of control over the projects they work on and the way they work on them, suddenly have to prove that they're really "zelfstandig", self-sufficient.
It's frustrating. I recently went back to regular employment and I hated it. Tons of extra rules, limited vacation days, and significantly lower pay. I guess I prefer being in control, saving for my own retirement, and going on vacation as often or as little as I like. Seriously, how many vacation days I had left used to give me stress. It's significantly healthier for me to be self-employed.
The way I see it: if a large company can have a single client and just rent out all their employees to that single company, why can't a small one-man company do the same?
And I think I'm a lot more self-sufficient than that company; if my contract ends, I can easily get a new contract elsewhere for myself. But if their contract ends, they need to find new work for all of their employees at once, and they'll likely fire some or all of them, making the whole job security argument moot. Their risk is higher than mine, and their security isn't. I really think having lots of self-employed contractors like me is better for the industry than the overhead of having to organise into companies.
In Poland the government is in on it when it comes to specialists of any kind, as this is how they prevent people from emigrating to the west or "emigrating" (tax-wise only) to the Czech Republic, which offers a similar deal.
For a while it was possible to have a flat 5% income tax rate, but I guess someone pointed out that it's too generous, so the best option now is a flat 12% and 3% healthcare contributions.
For a while it was possible to have a flat 5% income tax rate, but I guess someone pointed out that it's too generous, so the best option now is a flat 12% and 3% healthcare contributions.
> By the way, you can insure yourself against loss of income. Many insurance companies offer this service.
In the US, I am not familiar with insurance for loss of income due to simply not being able to sell products/services. Usually, the loss of income has to be a result of covered natural disasters, vandalism, legal issues, etc. Most business insurance policies even specifically exclude pandemics, as many found out recently.
In the US, I am not familiar with insurance for loss of income due to simply not being able to sell products/services. Usually, the loss of income has to be a result of covered natural disasters, vandalism, legal issues, etc. Most business insurance policies even specifically exclude pandemics, as many found out recently.
> I can't see why a company couldn't have one long-term customer.
Let's hope you won't find out why that's a very bad idea.
> Clearly having multiple customers isn't a reasonable requirement for a small company.
On the contrary, it's a must.
> Software engineering isn't like private residential plumbing - "sink drain unclogged, next please!" :)
That's a strawman.
Sorry, but if you have just one customer and you're developing software other than taxes and your rights you are less than an employee. Don't kid yourself, that tends to lead to rude awakenings. If at the end of the year you've only sent invoices to a single customer then you are simply at risk. You need multiple customers to be stable and secure. Two is better than one and three is really the minimum.
Loss of income insurance is to take care of mishaps, not to insure against market downturns or other normal risks that a business is exposed to.
Let's hope you won't find out why that's a very bad idea.
> Clearly having multiple customers isn't a reasonable requirement for a small company.
On the contrary, it's a must.
> Software engineering isn't like private residential plumbing - "sink drain unclogged, next please!" :)
That's a strawman.
Sorry, but if you have just one customer and you're developing software other than taxes and your rights you are less than an employee. Don't kid yourself, that tends to lead to rude awakenings. If at the end of the year you've only sent invoices to a single customer then you are simply at risk. You need multiple customers to be stable and secure. Two is better than one and three is really the minimum.
Loss of income insurance is to take care of mishaps, not to insure against market downturns or other normal risks that a business is exposed to.
> > I can't see why a company couldn't have one long-term customer.
> Let's hope you won't find out why that's a very bad idea.
The way you phrased it feels needlessly patronizing (perhaps unintentionally), but more importantly, it does not really address my comment.
I wasn't arguing if it is a good idea or not. I was responding to the argument that having multiple customers is necessary to be regarded as "truly" self-employed in the eyes of the taxman. My point is that it's not uncommon nor unusual for a small company to be invoicing only a single customer. Hence my examples. Whether it is safe business-wise is another story.
> If at the end of the year you've only sent invoices to a single customer then you are simply at risk. You need multiple customers to be stable and secure. Two is better than one and three is really the minimum.
Noone denies that having diversified sources of income is (other things being equal) the safer option. But the subject was legal recognition, not optimal business strategies.
> Let's hope you won't find out why that's a very bad idea.
The way you phrased it feels needlessly patronizing (perhaps unintentionally), but more importantly, it does not really address my comment.
I wasn't arguing if it is a good idea or not. I was responding to the argument that having multiple customers is necessary to be regarded as "truly" self-employed in the eyes of the taxman. My point is that it's not uncommon nor unusual for a small company to be invoicing only a single customer. Hence my examples. Whether it is safe business-wise is another story.
> If at the end of the year you've only sent invoices to a single customer then you are simply at risk. You need multiple customers to be stable and secure. Two is better than one and three is really the minimum.
Noone denies that having diversified sources of income is (other things being equal) the safer option. But the subject was legal recognition, not optimal business strategies.
It may come across as patronizing because that's roughly how I see this. I'm at the end of my career after a very productive stint and have absolutely nothing to lose by letting you have the benefit of my experience to date, which spans a couple of continents, six countries and a substantial amount of money. Whether you are open to that kind of experience backed input is entirely up to you, I have no upside here, but you do and you also have a possible downside. But: when I was 27 or so I might have still seen things your way so maybe in 30 years you'll be telling someone else the same things. I sincerely hope that you will never find the true measure of how important those things are and if I could give my younger self some advice that would be it.
As for legal recognition: the only reason this is a thing right now is because the social contract is broken, in any other setting you'd be an employee.
As for legal recognition: the only reason this is a thing right now is because the social contract is broken, in any other setting you'd be an employee.
I have multiple customers over time; 3 years ago, I worked on a different project, for a different client, than I do now. But with the kind of projects I work on, it's hard to do several of these projects at once, and they're too long to do several in a year. Expecting self-employed contractors to have multiple clients is unreasonable.
As for job security, employment doesn't give a shred more job security than being a self-employed contractor these days. My job security comes from my skills and the succession of successful projects I've worked on.
And there are a lot of companies that have a single large customer. I think I have a lot more flexibility than they do.
As for job security, employment doesn't give a shred more job security than being a self-employed contractor these days. My job security comes from my skills and the succession of successful projects I've worked on.
And there are a lot of companies that have a single large customer. I think I have a lot more flexibility than they do.
> I have multiple customers over time; 3 years ago, I worked on a different project, for a different client, than I do now. But with the kind of projects I work on, it's hard to do several of these projects at once, and they're too long to do several in a year.
So please be very careful and if you can find a side gig that doesn't interfere with your main one so you have at least some protection. It could be a low hours but high pay job that way you don't end up eating into your time too much, for instance a coaching job.
> Expecting self-employed contractors to have multiple clients is unreasonable.
On the contrary: it's a must. Without multiple clients you are super fragile, don't have a strong negotiation position and in case of any kind of headwind you're immediately on the ropes. If you insist on doing long running contracts try getting two that do not overlap in terms of run-time, make one two days a week, the other two days a week or three days a week and bill the smaller job a higher rate.
> And there are a lot of companies that have a single large customer. I think I have a lot more flexibility than they do.
That's true, but they tend to have a much stronger position than you do due to the kind of contracts that get written between large entities. In a conflict with a much larger entity you usually end up drawing the short stick. They could stiff you on a bill and it would already pull you under water.
So please be very careful and if you can find a side gig that doesn't interfere with your main one so you have at least some protection. It could be a low hours but high pay job that way you don't end up eating into your time too much, for instance a coaching job.
> Expecting self-employed contractors to have multiple clients is unreasonable.
On the contrary: it's a must. Without multiple clients you are super fragile, don't have a strong negotiation position and in case of any kind of headwind you're immediately on the ropes. If you insist on doing long running contracts try getting two that do not overlap in terms of run-time, make one two days a week, the other two days a week or three days a week and bill the smaller job a higher rate.
> And there are a lot of companies that have a single large customer. I think I have a lot more flexibility than they do.
That's true, but they tend to have a much stronger position than you do due to the kind of contracts that get written between large entities. In a conflict with a much larger entity you usually end up drawing the short stick. They could stiff you on a bill and it would already pull you under water.
> so you have at least some protection.
Protection from what exactly?
> Without multiple clients you are super fragile, don't have a strong negotiation position and in case of any kind of headwind you're immediately on the ropes.
Not at all. I can walk away and I have my financial reserves. My negotiation position is stronger than when I'm an employee.
> If you insist on doing long running contracts try getting two that do not overlap in terms of run-time, make one two days a week, the other two days a week or three days a week and bill the smaller job a higher rate.
This sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. I'm not going to undermine myself like that.
> They could stiff you on a bill and it would already pull you under water.
One (very small) client did stiff me on a bill. I won't work for them anymore, and I tend to prefer larger clients now that simply do pay their bills. I have considered suing them, but the amount was too small to be worth it. It didn't pull me under water.
Protection from what exactly?
> Without multiple clients you are super fragile, don't have a strong negotiation position and in case of any kind of headwind you're immediately on the ropes.
Not at all. I can walk away and I have my financial reserves. My negotiation position is stronger than when I'm an employee.
> If you insist on doing long running contracts try getting two that do not overlap in terms of run-time, make one two days a week, the other two days a week or three days a week and bill the smaller job a higher rate.
This sounds like an absolutely terrible idea. I'm not going to undermine myself like that.
> They could stiff you on a bill and it would already pull you under water.
One (very small) client did stiff me on a bill. I won't work for them anymore, and I tend to prefer larger clients now that simply do pay their bills. I have considered suing them, but the amount was too small to be worth it. It didn't pull me under water.
> Protection from what exactly?
I think jacquesm is advocating that you have multiple sources of income (clients) to protect from the possibility that you lose your one and only client and suddenly have zero income.
I take a different approach to my consulting. It sounds like you do too. I typically have just one client, but I charge them a metric shitload and tell them quite specifically that I do that in part to protect myself should I need to go months and months without a replacement client. Obviously there are limits to this and I'd have zero clients if I charged too much, but between that and a savings buffer built up from previous clients, I don't feel like this is a precarious situation at all.
But I also have to admit/concede that I do not think my advice is replicable. I only started being so aggressive about my rates once I already had the privilege of being able to survive for years without any income. For someone who _needs_ reliable income, jacquesm's advice is probably more useful than mine.
I think jacquesm is advocating that you have multiple sources of income (clients) to protect from the possibility that you lose your one and only client and suddenly have zero income.
I take a different approach to my consulting. It sounds like you do too. I typically have just one client, but I charge them a metric shitload and tell them quite specifically that I do that in part to protect myself should I need to go months and months without a replacement client. Obviously there are limits to this and I'd have zero clients if I charged too much, but between that and a savings buffer built up from previous clients, I don't feel like this is a precarious situation at all.
But I also have to admit/concede that I do not think my advice is replicable. I only started being so aggressive about my rates once I already had the privilege of being able to survive for years without any income. For someone who _needs_ reliable income, jacquesm's advice is probably more useful than mine.
Ok, never mind me then. Best of luck with the career!
What rude awakening? The situation is exactly the same as losing a job: you are now jobless and need to find the next one. The "safety net" for a high earning individual does not exist anyway.
sounds like you simply really don’t like freelancers. you know no one stops you from accumulating reserves in your company or in general, right?
You're funny. I've been self employed for the last 30+ years and I really enjoy it. But I know the risks and I'm making sure I don't get burned because having only one customer is just setting yourself up for various kinds of failure.
I love freelancers and I love freelancing. But I know the difference between being a freelancer and running a company and being an employee in all but name and you really don't ever want to be in that position.
I love freelancers and I love freelancing. But I know the difference between being a freelancer and running a company and being an employee in all but name and you really don't ever want to be in that position.
the way not to get burned is to charge high enough with trustworthy clients, take some insurances and to be aware of your pension provisions that will vary by country. whether you have 1 or 3 clients at one point in time is immaterial as long as it doesn't sour your relationship with your clients
I appreciate that it sounds like you had a bad experience with a client though.
I appreciate that it sounds like you had a bad experience with a client though.
> the way not to get burned is to charge high enough with trustworthy clients
That helps. What helps even more is to have a nice fat savings account that allows you to negotiate properly, to weather the inevitable dry spells, to build a solid base of clients that value you and that will repeatedly hire you.
> take some insurances
Against what? 90%+ of the freelancers are not even insured against loss of income from health related issues. The remainder is well off enough that they can probably afford to take the risk.
> whether you have 1 or 3 clients at one point in time is immaterial as long as it doesn't sour your relationship with your clients
Until: that one client goes bust, there is a 'policy change', the project/product you are working on gets axed, the economy burps, your main contact at the company gets fired and the new guy or girl doesn't like you and so on.
> I appreciate that it sounds like you had a bad experience with a client though.
I appreciate that it sounds like you haven't had a bad experience yet, but that makes you simply less experienced. Give it some time and you'll see all of the above and variations on those themes.
Here is a 2011 booklet I wrote on the subject.
https://jacquesmattheij.com/be-consultant/
That helps. What helps even more is to have a nice fat savings account that allows you to negotiate properly, to weather the inevitable dry spells, to build a solid base of clients that value you and that will repeatedly hire you.
> take some insurances
Against what? 90%+ of the freelancers are not even insured against loss of income from health related issues. The remainder is well off enough that they can probably afford to take the risk.
> whether you have 1 or 3 clients at one point in time is immaterial as long as it doesn't sour your relationship with your clients
Until: that one client goes bust, there is a 'policy change', the project/product you are working on gets axed, the economy burps, your main contact at the company gets fired and the new guy or girl doesn't like you and so on.
> I appreciate that it sounds like you had a bad experience with a client though.
I appreciate that it sounds like you haven't had a bad experience yet, but that makes you simply less experienced. Give it some time and you'll see all of the above and variations on those themes.
Here is a 2011 booklet I wrote on the subject.
https://jacquesmattheij.com/be-consultant/
as I already mentioned having reserves is indeed very important
in my jurisdiction there are for example some excellent guaranteed income insurances covering various situations. they won't pay forever, but they'll pay. income replacement due to health issues is covered by normal social welfare in my jurisdiction as well
all of those things you mentioned happen regularly to employees. they are harder to let go, sure, but employers have a lot more leeway to make your job hellish enough to force a resignation, or if the economy is really bad overall they can throw their hands up and say we're cutting divisions of the business with no objections from the law in most places. sure you can go to your work council (hope they are on your side) about it, or to the union (hope they have time for you and you're lucky enough to have enough evidence to win the tribunal) or the lawyer (hope you have a legal assistance insurance and are ready for years of process and fees). employees without a savings buffer are similarly vulnerable in these circumstances
the biggest reason to stay an employee if you can consult instead where I am is really the unemployment benefits you can get, but that now takes up to 10 months to actually start paying out due to how understaffed the government is. so again, best have some reserves. the next biggest reason is you hate paperwork
in my jurisdiction there are for example some excellent guaranteed income insurances covering various situations. they won't pay forever, but they'll pay. income replacement due to health issues is covered by normal social welfare in my jurisdiction as well
all of those things you mentioned happen regularly to employees. they are harder to let go, sure, but employers have a lot more leeway to make your job hellish enough to force a resignation, or if the economy is really bad overall they can throw their hands up and say we're cutting divisions of the business with no objections from the law in most places. sure you can go to your work council (hope they are on your side) about it, or to the union (hope they have time for you and you're lucky enough to have enough evidence to win the tribunal) or the lawyer (hope you have a legal assistance insurance and are ready for years of process and fees). employees without a savings buffer are similarly vulnerable in these circumstances
the biggest reason to stay an employee if you can consult instead where I am is really the unemployment benefits you can get, but that now takes up to 10 months to actually start paying out due to how understaffed the government is. so again, best have some reserves. the next biggest reason is you hate paperwork
The point isn't that they doesn't like freelancers, but doesn't like how the employers misuse that to get workers without rights. "Oh, you're not employed here, so we don't have to follow labor laws, we can just terminate the contract".
If I'm not mistaken, in the US employees can also be fired just like that. Meanwhile my contract specifies a month notice for both sides.
And that was their preference. I'm totally fine with being fired; that flexibility is also part of what I sell. It's why they pay me more than they pay employees.
And that was their preference. I'm totally fine with being fired; that flexibility is also part of what I sell. It's why they pay me more than they pay employees.
the worker rights issue is mostly a concern for blue collar workers that are forced to become freelance by some companies to save on welfare costs. that is what tax authorities actually look for when they talk about "false self-employment" and that is why it is the company giving the assignment that gets punished in these situations and usually not the freelancer.
that's not really a concern for high billing consulting professionals. it is a common misunderstanding (as you can see from comments here) though and is variously used by companies to undercompensate people who could be far more profitable consulting
that's not really a concern for high billing consulting professionals. it is a common misunderstanding (as you can see from comments here) though and is variously used by companies to undercompensate people who could be far more profitable consulting
If you're not jumping around contracts regularly every 2 years in NL and are not billing the approximate annual wage for your role every year (assuming that you work the 40-44 weeks) then you're an employee and shouldn't be contracting.
The market now is interesting - there are a huge number of low experience / low skill people flooding the market which has driven prices down for some very good people whilst also making it hard for companies to actually find qualified people. It actually lead to me rejecting a project who really wanted me and I fancied (Government but with a chance to have a really big positive impact on society; I moved mountains with the last project and learned some valuable lessons, seemed a shame to let that dull... oh well).
I've been doing it for about 8 years now, I enjoy it and it has allowed me to both grow like crazy and do things I've always been capable of but wouldn't have attempted as an employee.
The other thing: funding in Europe for ventures is horrible compared to the US. I'll be looking to raise for a project this year and I'm dreading it (Healthcare, we're going to try the public route first because it would be better long term.. although it will leave money on the table it will increase the probability of success we believe).
The market now is interesting - there are a huge number of low experience / low skill people flooding the market which has driven prices down for some very good people whilst also making it hard for companies to actually find qualified people. It actually lead to me rejecting a project who really wanted me and I fancied (Government but with a chance to have a really big positive impact on society; I moved mountains with the last project and learned some valuable lessons, seemed a shame to let that dull... oh well).
I've been doing it for about 8 years now, I enjoy it and it has allowed me to both grow like crazy and do things I've always been capable of but wouldn't have attempted as an employee.
The other thing: funding in Europe for ventures is horrible compared to the US. I'll be looking to raise for a project this year and I'm dreading it (Healthcare, we're going to try the public route first because it would be better long term.. although it will leave money on the table it will increase the probability of success we believe).
You should be billing a multiple of the approximate annual wage to offset the risks of freelancing. Twice is good, three times is better. If you can't do that you're much better and safer off to find employment so make sure you understand exactly what the risk/reward trade-off is for being a freelancer and set yourself up accordingly.
Find customers that value you and make sure they pay and pay on time. A single hickup in the payment department is a good reason to start looking for a replacement customer. And never ever rely on just the one customer: your negotiation position is now crap and if anything happens to that one customer, their customers, their market or the relationship then you're done.
If and when you are looking for funding for your healthcare start-up please contact me, I may not be able to invest myself but I do have a whole pile of contacts and some of those are doing regular medical investments.
Find customers that value you and make sure they pay and pay on time. A single hickup in the payment department is a good reason to start looking for a replacement customer. And never ever rely on just the one customer: your negotiation position is now crap and if anything happens to that one customer, their customers, their market or the relationship then you're done.
If and when you are looking for funding for your healthcare start-up please contact me, I may not be able to invest myself but I do have a whole pile of contacts and some of those are doing regular medical investments.
You don't seem to understand that using B2B contacts for work is something different than freelancing.
In the UK this was normal for IT (and other) contractors because there were tax advantages to the employer and to the employee/contractor. The employer could avoid paying National Insurance (social security) taxes of 10% as well as pension and sick pay contributions. The employee could pay themselves a small salary - enough to get social security benefits but be in the lowest or no-tax band and pay the rest as dividends from their limited company where tax was paid at a lower rate than income tax.
It was a good wheeze but some years ago the govt bought in legislation "IR35" which basically says that if it looks like a employment contract then it should be taxed like a "normal" employment contract.
It was a good wheeze but some years ago the govt bought in legislation "IR35" which basically says that if it looks like a employment contract then it should be taxed like a "normal" employment contract.
This would be quite risky where I am from, for both the freelancer and the employer. Being self employed, but only for a single customer, is false self-employment. If you get caught, your employer has to pay taxes and social security contributions retroactively for up to 4 years, and afaik both the employer and the freelancer are liable for the money owed to the tax office and social securities. If you are caught doing this premeditated, it might be a criminal offence.
This risk does exist in Poland, but among the criteria for "false self-employment" is being expected to work within fixed hours, and in a location specified by the employer.
As IT workers - even those who've got contracts of employment - typically do flexible hours, and pretty often work from home (or otherwise remotely), it doesn't really apply.
As IT workers - even those who've got contracts of employment - typically do flexible hours, and pretty often work from home (or otherwise remotely), it doesn't really apply.
If you're from a country like Germany, most of what you're skipping financially is the insurance cost that's covered by the employer (social security etc.)
Which means you don't have access to the social safety in case you need it.
In Poland(since I'm also from here), biggest chunk of savings when working as self-employed is income tax and mandatory public retiremend fund.
Most Software Engineers go B2B/self-employment route because not only taxes are lower, but savings from paying minimal public retirement are pretty big with higher salaries. We're at a point where most people in Poland do not believe in retirement system anymore, it's unsustainable and will crash or will be kept with social, minimal retirement, no matter what you paid in. That's why most of us want to save on the side, put that into ETFs or housing rather than count on the government, especially that over last decade or so almost destroyed this country.
Exactly. Only 3% of millennials believe that state pension system will allow them to survive.
https://forsal.pl/artykuly/1415939,srokowski-tylko-3-proc-mi...
https://forsal.pl/artykuly/1415939,srokowski-tylko-3-proc-mi...
If you earn enough, the savings can easily surpass the risk for a singular person.
It's worse for society overall, but let's not pretend the high earners don't mostly subsidize the safety net.
It's worse for society overall, but let's not pretend the high earners don't mostly subsidize the safety net.
The IT sector in Poland (again) is a booming one, and most of the services are effectively exported, as we're talking outsourcing.
I guess it translates into the lack of political will to curb the practice, too, as the government would risk that self-employed programmers (and whatnot) may not fall in line, but mostly log out of the system instead, registering their companies abroad, for example. I guess the government isn't eager to start this cat-and-mouse game, preferring a smaller slice of a bigger pie.
There are even some extra incentives on the top of the flat income tax rate (which is an option for all one-man companies, regardless of the sector)...
Like the "IP Box" tax relief, which drives the income tax rate from the regular 19% all the way down to 5%, as long as you get your services classified as "research and development". It takes some patience and loads of legal paperwork, which you obviously have to pay for (the latter, that is), but it's well worth it in the end.
I guess it translates into the lack of political will to curb the practice, too, as the government would risk that self-employed programmers (and whatnot) may not fall in line, but mostly log out of the system instead, registering their companies abroad, for example. I guess the government isn't eager to start this cat-and-mouse game, preferring a smaller slice of a bigger pie.
There are even some extra incentives on the top of the flat income tax rate (which is an option for all one-man companies, regardless of the sector)...
Like the "IP Box" tax relief, which drives the income tax rate from the regular 19% all the way down to 5%, as long as you get your services classified as "research and development". It takes some patience and loads of legal paperwork, which you obviously have to pay for (the latter, that is), but it's well worth it in the end.
>registering their companies abroad, for example.
"Registering" the business only is a trap and a way to pay much much more _when_ the tax office decides you are avoiding taxes. To truly do that, you need to move your center of life abroad, which generally means being outside Poland for 183 days a year.
>I guess the government isn't eager to start this cat-and-mouse game, preferring a smaller slice of a bigger pie.
I agree that it mostly is the case, as I still pay few times more taxes (and VAT on consumption...) than average citizen, even when using 12% lump sum tax.
"Registering" the business only is a trap and a way to pay much much more _when_ the tax office decides you are avoiding taxes. To truly do that, you need to move your center of life abroad, which generally means being outside Poland for 183 days a year.
>I guess the government isn't eager to start this cat-and-mouse game, preferring a smaller slice of a bigger pie.
I agree that it mostly is the case, as I still pay few times more taxes (and VAT on consumption...) than average citizen, even when using 12% lump sum tax.
> To truly do that, you need to move your center of life abroad, which generally means being outside Poland for 183 days a year.
Yeah, theoretically. But at least within the Schengen area, that's pretty difficult to prove/disprove, especially if you've got no family. I'm working remotely, I'm renting a cheap room in Budějovice, here's the tenancy agreement. Come see if my toothbrush is wet :)
Yeah, theoretically. But at least within the Schengen area, that's pretty difficult to prove/disprove, especially if you've got no family. I'm working remotely, I'm renting a cheap room in Budějovice, here's the tenancy agreement. Come see if my toothbrush is wet :)
In developed countries IP means submitting patents and real research which build the company's position on the market. That's why they have strong companies and brands. The Polish "IP box" is creating and submitting PDFs with git diffs of Java and TypeScript written for these companies. Just remember to remove passwords and secrets from them, guys.
Not all intellectual property is patented. Anyhow, you don't include git diffs. You cannot, even if you wanted to - the code is not your property. The whole point is that you're selling your intellectual property rights. It also means that the tax office pretty much has to rely on your word that the work is innovative in nature. Obviously they'd be in no position to tell the difference anyway.
Similiar laws are in Poland, except they're not really enforced.
It's really rare that the tax office would prove a company exists solely for tax optimization. The risk virtually drops to zero if one freelances after the hours and has legitimate invoices with other companies.
This often causes mismatch between Polish employees who wish to work remotely abroad, and for ex. employeers from the DACH region, where I've heard the laws are strictly enforced. One party claims there is no risk, and the other claims it's too risky :-) (taking other factors aside, such as employee protection, etc.)
It's really rare that the tax office would prove a company exists solely for tax optimization. The risk virtually drops to zero if one freelances after the hours and has legitimate invoices with other companies.
This often causes mismatch between Polish employees who wish to work remotely abroad, and for ex. employeers from the DACH region, where I've heard the laws are strictly enforced. One party claims there is no risk, and the other claims it's too risky :-) (taking other factors aside, such as employee protection, etc.)
> Being self employed, but only for a single customer, is false self-employment
This is exactly what happens in Poland and everyone involved feels very smart for cheating the system. That's also why software from Poland is such a tacky crap despite so many "talents". The software professionals have no leverage to push back, they only can walk away. The irresistibile benefit is that one can write off buying a car into operating costs, so the dream of PREMIUM GERMAN CAR prevails over doing anything creative.
This is exactly what happens in Poland and everyone involved feels very smart for cheating the system. That's also why software from Poland is such a tacky crap despite so many "talents". The software professionals have no leverage to push back, they only can walk away. The irresistibile benefit is that one can write off buying a car into operating costs, so the dream of PREMIUM GERMAN CAR prevails over doing anything creative.
Anecdotal, but developers from Poland (and Russia too) have been among the best contractors I've seen. Even the digital tracking / documents system from the government, which is usually a pile of crap in most countries, is pretty well done.
I've had terrible experiences with Hungary, Latvia, etc. and (judging from conversations to the owners of the outsourcing agencies) Hungary has very high taxes and not many smart ways of avoiding them.
I've had terrible experiences with Hungary, Latvia, etc. and (judging from conversations to the owners of the outsourcing agencies) Hungary has very high taxes and not many smart ways of avoiding them.
How is tax optimization related to the quality of developed software?
If you have to breach rules which are a standard in developed countries, means exactly that you are uncompetitive with your skills. Funny that social and salary dumping where exactly the populist argument that the British voters picked up most eagerly in referendum on Brexit. That's post-Communist mentality to feel satisfaction from "screwing someone over", it's devastating the social trust, on macro scale it doesn't pay well.
You don't have to breach any rules. Every job offer I've ever had in Poland had an option for regular contract of employment ("umowa o pracę"). If you want to be taxed more, that option is always on the table.
I still don't see how developing high quality software is related to one's personal viewpoint on taxes.
That's very smart.
> That's also why software from Poland is such a tacky crap despite so many "talents"
[citation needed]
How do you recognize "software from Poland" anyway?
[citation needed]
How do you recognize "software from Poland" anyway?
> How do you recognize "software from Poland" anyway?
Whatever is created in all these nearshoring and outsourcing centers in Warsaw, Kraków, and Wrocław. Currently mostly Azure, SAP, business Java and Angular.
Whatever is created in all these nearshoring and outsourcing centers in Warsaw, Kraków, and Wrocław. Currently mostly Azure, SAP, business Java and Angular.
In my experience, the software can be crap because the companies tend to only hire technical people over here in Poland, while business guys remain in the HQ. The highest business person you'll see in Poland is typically a PO, while a PM and people above him are in the headquaters. This has the effect of not keeping the Polish team tightly in the loop, which translates into worse software.
The second problem is that the companies tend to hire a lot of people at the same time when they open their offshore/nearshore center in Poland - often going from zero to hundreds, or even thousands over the span of just a couple of years. Having such large organization of effectively people with no previous institutional history is akin to a herd of only young elephants, who don't have any elders and don't know what and how they should be doing exactly. The "elders" are in the HQ obviously, but building company culture exclusively over Zoom, especially on the scale of hundreds/thousands new hires, is a bad idea.
The second problem is that the companies tend to hire a lot of people at the same time when they open their offshore/nearshore center in Poland - often going from zero to hundreds, or even thousands over the span of just a couple of years. Having such large organization of effectively people with no previous institutional history is akin to a herd of only young elephants, who don't have any elders and don't know what and how they should be doing exactly. The "elders" are in the HQ obviously, but building company culture exclusively over Zoom, especially on the scale of hundreds/thousands new hires, is a bad idea.
This isn't a mistake or overlook. They treat the office like a sweatshop. No you are not exceptionally skillful. Within weeks they're able to move to a cheaper location and they will once their Excel will say so. It's so funny seeing devs on B2B in Poland thinking they are some entrepreneurs while for HQ they are in the same league as another office in Pajarumbad.
They don’t move to cheaper locations though, because the work quality would suffer. So far, I’ve only seen one group of people laid off in Poland and their jobs moved to India - DB admins. The company deemed the job simple enough to risk moving it to an outsourced Indian sweatshop. The results were terrible BTW.
Also, your experience is very different than mine, I’ve never meet anyone working in Poland doing coding for a company abroad thinking they’re some kind of entrepreneur. They’re not delusional, they know that they’re just doing a job, selling themselves to a highest bidder like everybody else.
Also, your experience is very different than mine, I’ve never meet anyone working in Poland doing coding for a company abroad thinking they’re some kind of entrepreneur. They’re not delusional, they know that they’re just doing a job, selling themselves to a highest bidder like everybody else.
Yeah, but how do you know which application was and which wasn't? Apart from some big customers, it usually isn't public knowledge. Eg. my previous project was a banking app for a rich Middle Eastern country. There's no "acknowledgements" section in the app.
My original question still stands - by what metrics do you regard "software from Poland" as "tacky crap"? I'm not being belligerent about it, but somewhat curious, sure.
My original question still stands - by what metrics do you regard "software from Poland" as "tacky crap"? I'm not being belligerent about it, but somewhat curious, sure.
Ain't gonna fight. Good luck.
I'm not fighting, I was just curious what you're basing your claim on. I disregarded your unnecessarily incendiary phrasing ("software from Poland is such a tacky crap") completely.
Software from all of Eastern Europe and ex-USSR is lower quality than American and Western European. Source: live in ex-USSR. We all hired to deliver shitty code for low cost. Not as shitty as Indian, but you get what you pay for.
Here is another mistake, some weird superiority. For the HQ in London, Munich, San Francisco, or Zurich, they are all in the same outsourcing low cost league as Bangajabad. It completery doesn't matter for them whether AI in Java and Kubernetes on Azure is bloated 2 or 3 times too much. Occasionally show them some low quality codebase from India to stroke their egos "you see that's why we keep the office in Novowsky".
some of the best eu engineers I’ve worked with were polish freelancers
Azure and SAP are crap everywhere.
You're dealing with some low end companies if german car is somehow a status symbol.
This doesn't even offend me. Good luck with your sweatshop.
sure that the case in lot of countries but is something really wrong with idea to have 2+ clients as minimum because reason why work done in that way is because person doing it don't wanna agree on terms that 'employment' contract is required and if that 'single' client is gone he always can get another one in few months. Sometimes you work with few clients in single year but sometimes it just one for 2-3y. And worth part that in some places taxes on self-employment might be higher.
My home country also regulates this scenario - one-man companies with ~single client - for businesses strongly. This is hidden employment. How would it be beneficial to anyone?
- the subcontractor doesn't get any social security. Has to provide everything for himself from the private sector. And pensions (however meager). Theoretically he's free to have multiple clients or vary prices but I guess for most this is a pipe dream and they are dependent. For some tax dodging he gives up the whole legal safety net of being employed. Based on your contract you are freely exchangeable.
- the contracting company has more freedoms with getting/tossing employees, although loses a safety net of subcontractor suddenly leaving or changing prices.
- the government loses oversight of actual corporate structures.
Instead of fixing the flaws in the social system, hidden employment just throws it in the bin because haha less taxes, more money and freedom.
- the subcontractor doesn't get any social security. Has to provide everything for himself from the private sector. And pensions (however meager). Theoretically he's free to have multiple clients or vary prices but I guess for most this is a pipe dream and they are dependent. For some tax dodging he gives up the whole legal safety net of being employed. Based on your contract you are freely exchangeable.
- the contracting company has more freedoms with getting/tossing employees, although loses a safety net of subcontractor suddenly leaving or changing prices.
- the government loses oversight of actual corporate structures.
Instead of fixing the flaws in the social system, hidden employment just throws it in the bin because haha less taxes, more money and freedom.
> How would it be beneficial to anyone?
Most programmers provide outsourcing services for companies from abroad (including outside of the EU).
Low taxes help them - and the umbrella companies AKA software houses - to remain competitive on the global market.
So even if they only pay a smaller fraction of their income to the budget, it's still better than if they didn't get the gig to begin with, because the contracts would go elsewhere.
> the subcontractor doesn't get any social security.
You do get healthcare insurance in Poland; no difference here. You're paying those fees just the same way.
You're only required to pay minimum pension charges though, so you have to take care of that yourself. (Objectively speaking, investing your savings in the pension system, of all places, probably isn't an optimal strategy anyway. At any rate, noone stops you from paying more than you're legally required, if you think that it is).
> the contracting company has more freedoms with getting/tossing employees, although loses a safety net of subcontractor suddenly leaving or changing prices.
It's obviously a trade-off. Being able to let people go without fuss if a customer downscales their budget (I was on the receiving end of this last year) is a competitive advantage.
> the government loses oversight of actual corporate structures
What do you mean by that?
Most programmers provide outsourcing services for companies from abroad (including outside of the EU).
Low taxes help them - and the umbrella companies AKA software houses - to remain competitive on the global market.
So even if they only pay a smaller fraction of their income to the budget, it's still better than if they didn't get the gig to begin with, because the contracts would go elsewhere.
> the subcontractor doesn't get any social security.
You do get healthcare insurance in Poland; no difference here. You're paying those fees just the same way.
You're only required to pay minimum pension charges though, so you have to take care of that yourself. (Objectively speaking, investing your savings in the pension system, of all places, probably isn't an optimal strategy anyway. At any rate, noone stops you from paying more than you're legally required, if you think that it is).
> the contracting company has more freedoms with getting/tossing employees, although loses a safety net of subcontractor suddenly leaving or changing prices.
It's obviously a trade-off. Being able to let people go without fuss if a customer downscales their budget (I was on the receiving end of this last year) is a competitive advantage.
> the government loses oversight of actual corporate structures
What do you mean by that?
My point is that this is a very wrong direction for any country but especially eastern europe.
It's like: welfare/health care system is bad, taxes are not used well. Top earning knowledge workers want an exit hatch, let's cater for them and they can hop off the welfare tax system. This way they can also provide cheap prices to foreign companies.
So many problems. These are just top off my head:
- Countries should want internally organised production, strong companies with own IP, not one-man "companies" producing IP to external entities.
- Those foreign companies will switch to other countries with better prices (Asia, Africa) any time if their programming scene improves. It's not like they have stakes like when building a factory.
- Lot of people think they can invest better, create a better future pension for themselves. This is often true, and why would we want to allow exits, further eroding the whole system? There should be a base pension fund with everyone involved.
> the government loses oversight of actual corporate structures
To the government the company could be a 5 person shell, while it actually employs/pays salaries of 100s of families. Theoretically you could roll up the contracts, but that would be very complicated.
So many problems. These are just top off my head:
- Countries should want internally organised production, strong companies with own IP, not one-man "companies" producing IP to external entities.
- Those foreign companies will switch to other countries with better prices (Asia, Africa) any time if their programming scene improves. It's not like they have stakes like when building a factory.
- Lot of people think they can invest better, create a better future pension for themselves. This is often true, and why would we want to allow exits, further eroding the whole system? There should be a base pension fund with everyone involved.
> the government loses oversight of actual corporate structures
To the government the company could be a 5 person shell, while it actually employs/pays salaries of 100s of families. Theoretically you could roll up the contracts, but that would be very complicated.
> - Countries should want internally organised production, strong companies with own IP, not one-man "companies" producing IP to external entities.
Of course it's great to have domestic tech giants (and, sadly, Europe as a whole isn't doing very well in this regard, for reasons that deserve a separate conversation), but these things are largely orthogonal to eachother.
There is no reason why a domestic tech giant couldn't have local talents on contracts. Promising domestic start-ups, such as Tidio (mentioning them as they're from my home city) are doing that too.
> - Those foreign companies will switch to other countries with better prices (Asia, Africa) any time if their programming scene improves
Sure, but having people on employment contracts isn't going to protect you against it.
> Lot of people think they can invest better, create a better future pension for themselves. This is often true, and why would we want to allow exits, further eroding the whole system? There should be a base pension fund with everyone involved.
And there is. I can't see why preventing people from investing into a better future pension for themselves (on the top of the state-provided minimum) would be a good idea.
> To the government the company could be a 5 person shell, while it actually employs/pays salaries of 100s of families. Theoretically you could roll up the contracts, but that would be very complicated.
The government has got a centralized system, National System of E-Invoices (or KSeF). It's a fairly fresh thing, but it's becoming obligatory this year. Meaning the taxman gets to see all the invoices without having to jump through any hoops. So even if you are contracting (instead of hiring) a hundred people, it is still transparent.
Of course it's great to have domestic tech giants (and, sadly, Europe as a whole isn't doing very well in this regard, for reasons that deserve a separate conversation), but these things are largely orthogonal to eachother.
There is no reason why a domestic tech giant couldn't have local talents on contracts. Promising domestic start-ups, such as Tidio (mentioning them as they're from my home city) are doing that too.
> - Those foreign companies will switch to other countries with better prices (Asia, Africa) any time if their programming scene improves
Sure, but having people on employment contracts isn't going to protect you against it.
> Lot of people think they can invest better, create a better future pension for themselves. This is often true, and why would we want to allow exits, further eroding the whole system? There should be a base pension fund with everyone involved.
And there is. I can't see why preventing people from investing into a better future pension for themselves (on the top of the state-provided minimum) would be a good idea.
> To the government the company could be a 5 person shell, while it actually employs/pays salaries of 100s of families. Theoretically you could roll up the contracts, but that would be very complicated.
The government has got a centralized system, National System of E-Invoices (or KSeF). It's a fairly fresh thing, but it's becoming obligatory this year. Meaning the taxman gets to see all the invoices without having to jump through any hoops. So even if you are contracting (instead of hiring) a hundred people, it is still transparent.
I agree that it's problematic, however:
> welfare/health care system is bad, taxes are not used well
There's a widespread lack of trust in the Polish government, which decreased even further during the 2015-2023 period. If the money is being funelled to the ruling politicians' families and friends, why willingly pay high taxes? I believe this is an underlying core issue, which would probably take a new generation to repair.
> welfare/health care system is bad, taxes are not used well
There's a widespread lack of trust in the Polish government, which decreased even further during the 2015-2023 period. If the money is being funelled to the ruling politicians' families and friends, why willingly pay high taxes? I believe this is an underlying core issue, which would probably take a new generation to repair.
I'm not sure if there had been any unprecented drop in the trust level between 2015 and 2023 (meaning under the Law and Justice government).
While it is true that it's relatively low in Poland in general... Eg. according to this survey [1], the percentage of respondents expressing trust in the government decreased from 38% in 2016 down to 32% in 2022 (while clearly exceeding 40% about half way through).
Which is pretty normal whenever the same party stays at power for a longer period; its popularity wears out over time.
For comparison, the same score was at 39% back in 2012, midway through the term of the government preceding Law and Justice. Hardly a striking contrast.
I'm even less sure about your claim when it comes to the context of welfare systems in particular.
Social transfers and safety net is one of the very few areas where the Law and Justice government achieved substantial results, even though it had to steer the country through the hardships of the pandemics.
For example, in terms of the percentage of children at risk of poverty and social exclusion Poland ranked 14th in the EU back in 2015 [2]. By 2022, it ranked 6th [3].
Also look at [4], [5], [6]...
I am putting aside the infamous judiciary reforms, abortion, and other hot button areas (which are far less of a priority for an average voter than echo chamber—commentators tend to assume). I'm focusing on the taxing & welfare, and sheer facts.
[1] https://www.cbos.pl/SPISKOM.POL/2022/K_037_22.PDF
[2] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/E...
[3] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
[4] https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/11/10/poland-has-eus-second...
[5] https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/06/20/poland-has-eus-third-...
[6] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1130472/poland-poverty-r...
While it is true that it's relatively low in Poland in general... Eg. according to this survey [1], the percentage of respondents expressing trust in the government decreased from 38% in 2016 down to 32% in 2022 (while clearly exceeding 40% about half way through).
Which is pretty normal whenever the same party stays at power for a longer period; its popularity wears out over time.
For comparison, the same score was at 39% back in 2012, midway through the term of the government preceding Law and Justice. Hardly a striking contrast.
I'm even less sure about your claim when it comes to the context of welfare systems in particular.
Social transfers and safety net is one of the very few areas where the Law and Justice government achieved substantial results, even though it had to steer the country through the hardships of the pandemics.
For example, in terms of the percentage of children at risk of poverty and social exclusion Poland ranked 14th in the EU back in 2015 [2]. By 2022, it ranked 6th [3].
Also look at [4], [5], [6]...
I am putting aside the infamous judiciary reforms, abortion, and other hot button areas (which are far less of a priority for an average voter than echo chamber—commentators tend to assume). I'm focusing on the taxing & welfare, and sheer facts.
[1] https://www.cbos.pl/SPISKOM.POL/2022/K_037_22.PDF
[2] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/E...
[3] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
[4] https://notesfrompoland.com/2022/11/10/poland-has-eus-second...
[5] https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/06/20/poland-has-eus-third-...
[6] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1130472/poland-poverty-r...
Thanks for the links! I'll read them :)
What benefit does that provide? Some commenters are saying it reduces taxes. Why would it reduce taxes? Why would the government reduce taxes for people who jump through these hoops?
Taxes.
Standard tax rate (on UoP) is 12% up to ~30k USD, the rest is taxed 32%. On top of that, the employer pays a social security fee, its rate rises proportionally to income.
As an one-person business, you have two most popular options:
- 12% flat tax rate on income, with a flat rate social security fee; (1)
- 19% flat tax rate on revenue. The social security fee is dependant on income, but it's less than on UoP. You can write off expenses in this scenario, so the actual tax rate is actually lower. People generally try to write off as much as they can - for example, the tax agency is OK with programmers buying multiple bikes as a means of "transport to clients" ;)
You can also write off VAT in both scenarios, effectively making a lot of major purchases (desks, chairs, phones, etc) way cheaper. There's also a 5% tax rate, called IP Box, but it's tricky and doesn't apply for every scenario, so I'm taking this aside.
With the employer spending 5k EUR per month (21,7k PLN), you're left with:
- 14,6k PLN on UoP
- 18,5k PLN on 12% tax
- 16,7k PLN on 19% tax, out of which you can potentially recover 3,9k PLN
It's easy to see why software developers choose to start a one-person business. It's worth to jump through the hoops to save on taxes.
(1) There are actually 3 levels dependant on income, but it's lower than the UoP fee for basically most software developers
Standard tax rate (on UoP) is 12% up to ~30k USD, the rest is taxed 32%. On top of that, the employer pays a social security fee, its rate rises proportionally to income.
As an one-person business, you have two most popular options:
- 12% flat tax rate on income, with a flat rate social security fee; (1)
- 19% flat tax rate on revenue. The social security fee is dependant on income, but it's less than on UoP. You can write off expenses in this scenario, so the actual tax rate is actually lower. People generally try to write off as much as they can - for example, the tax agency is OK with programmers buying multiple bikes as a means of "transport to clients" ;)
You can also write off VAT in both scenarios, effectively making a lot of major purchases (desks, chairs, phones, etc) way cheaper. There's also a 5% tax rate, called IP Box, but it's tricky and doesn't apply for every scenario, so I'm taking this aside.
With the employer spending 5k EUR per month (21,7k PLN), you're left with:
- 14,6k PLN on UoP
- 18,5k PLN on 12% tax
- 16,7k PLN on 19% tax, out of which you can potentially recover 3,9k PLN
It's easy to see why software developers choose to start a one-person business. It's worth to jump through the hoops to save on taxes.
(1) There are actually 3 levels dependant on income, but it's lower than the UoP fee for basically most software developers
Why would the government design it like this? Do they want to encourage this type of thing? What benefit does encouraging this provide to society?
The US doesn't do this. They try to make self employed vs employed by a company have the same tax rates.
The US doesn't do this. They try to make self employed vs employed by a company have the same tax rates.
Because they need to keep some gaps in the tax law to allow their friends to pay less taxes than normal people.
The US famously had a huge amount of tax law exemption just because of corruption. Nowadays you need an international setup to achieve the same, because the same old tricks have been used by many and there was enough political pressure to change it.
Some countries simply just didn't go through enough scandals of finding out how all well networked people pay almost zero taxes and therefore still have some relatively simple setups to pay little taxes.
A separate matter is countries trying to desperately attracting businesses and creating tax benefits only for wealthy expats, but not for their own people.
The US famously had a huge amount of tax law exemption just because of corruption. Nowadays you need an international setup to achieve the same, because the same old tricks have been used by many and there was enough political pressure to change it.
Some countries simply just didn't go through enough scandals of finding out how all well networked people pay almost zero taxes and therefore still have some relatively simple setups to pay little taxes.
A separate matter is countries trying to desperately attracting businesses and creating tax benefits only for wealthy expats, but not for their own people.
> Because they need to keep some gaps in the tax law to allow their friends to pay less taxes than normal people.
The self-employed in Poland provide almost 30% of total budget revenue from income tax [1]. (This statistic is somewhat dated, but I don't believe it's changed drastically since). That's a lot of "friends" and "wealthy expats".
[1] https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/259268/1/1777969808....
The self-employed in Poland provide almost 30% of total budget revenue from income tax [1]. (This statistic is somewhat dated, but I don't believe it's changed drastically since). That's a lot of "friends" and "wealthy expats".
[1] https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/259268/1/1777969808....
Good questions, no clue. The answer probably lies somewhere between a "badly designed tax system" and "stimulating growth of the IT sector".
It certainly helps the IT sector to stay globally competitive, also attracting foreign talent (hence plenty of programmers from eg. Ukraine, particularly these days).
Being self-employed has its own downsides - if anything goes south (as in, you did something terribly wrong, there's graphite on the ground, and you're held financially responsible for the outcome), you are liable down to your very last penny, in theory at least.
By comparison, if you're on a contract of employment, you're only liable up to the equivalent of your three salaries, even if your negligence has caused damages in the millions.
You are not protected by the labor law (by contrast, getting fired on an employment contract runs into plenty of legal protections should you choose to dispute it).
It makes sense to me that accepting greater responsibility - as a one-man company - gets compensated somehow, like in the form of lesser tax burdens.
Being self-employed has its own downsides - if anything goes south (as in, you did something terribly wrong, there's graphite on the ground, and you're held financially responsible for the outcome), you are liable down to your very last penny, in theory at least.
By comparison, if you're on a contract of employment, you're only liable up to the equivalent of your three salaries, even if your negligence has caused damages in the millions.
You are not protected by the labor law (by contrast, getting fired on an employment contract runs into plenty of legal protections should you choose to dispute it).
It makes sense to me that accepting greater responsibility - as a one-man company - gets compensated somehow, like in the form of lesser tax burdens.
the answer is - polish government is trash
Me! I started my solo, startup law practice almost by accident via a Hacker News comment years ago. It's now my primary source of income.
It's hard, but less hard than what startup founders do. It's nice having control of my schedule, but the flip side is that there's never a day off. Personally, I think being self-employed is great for people who naturally work really hard and want to capture the full output of their labor.
I don't think I could ever go back to full time employment for someone else. It's addicting having your own business that actually cash flows!
It's hard, but less hard than what startup founders do. It's nice having control of my schedule, but the flip side is that there's never a day off. Personally, I think being self-employed is great for people who naturally work really hard and want to capture the full output of their labor.
I don't think I could ever go back to full time employment for someone else. It's addicting having your own business that actually cash flows!
Nice one, congratulations!
I'm self-unemployed :D Helped a startup to exit a couple of years ago and had a small amount of equity. Been working on building a game since then. I don't think I'm going to make it to the finish line before I need to get another job, but maybe after that job I'll have the game finished and can build a more sustainable path from there.
Definitely envious of those with actually sustainable business models, though, heh.
(p.s. https://github.com/MeoMix/symbiants, come say hi in the Discord if you want to talk shop about Rust/Bevy/WASM/gamification of mental health)
Definitely envious of those with actually sustainable business models, though, heh.
(p.s. https://github.com/MeoMix/symbiants, come say hi in the Discord if you want to talk shop about Rust/Bevy/WASM/gamification of mental health)
I went through your profile and I just want to say, that idea of gamifying mental health with virtual pets (ants!) sounds super interesting! All the best!
Thank you! :D I appreciate the kind words.
I just build projects that interest me (websites, apps, games). So far released 62 things, of which 10 made >$10k. It's interesting because you get to do a variety of things, and I don't really mind the unpredictability. Might even like it in a slot machine variable reward sort of way.
Just now I spent 3 months making a game that turned out to be worth $0, but that's part of the process. As long as the project itself is interesting and you learn something from it, it doesn't feel like totally wasted time.
Just now I spent 3 months making a game that turned out to be worth $0, but that's part of the process. As long as the project itself is interesting and you learn something from it, it doesn't feel like totally wasted time.
Self-employed. Project started in 2000. Income fully funded by revenue since 2009. Product is a cross-platform native digital audio workstation (ardour.org). Revenue also funds a significant part of the income of a second developer (total of $220-240k/year in recent years).
Thank you for Ardour!
Was self employed and worked as contractor programmer for the longest time until a couple of years ago. Thought I would work less. Boy was I wrong. Chasing clients, doing taxes, invoicing people and praying they'll pay on time. Got sick of the not very dependable cash flow which was feast and famine cycles. Went to get a corporate job and even though the work is not as exciting and the codebase is legacy, at least I don't sweat the next paycheck.
Yeah did the same, and I'm also enjoying the corporate life.
Learned a ton of lessons, the first of which is starting a consulting shop for general development is fools errand. You can kind of make if worth it if you're decent at sales and offshore everything.
If I do it again I'll slice our niche down thinner than prosciutto, something like CRM integrations for real estate agents, and have contracts that allowed us to own the IP.
Learned a ton of lessons, the first of which is starting a consulting shop for general development is fools errand. You can kind of make if worth it if you're decent at sales and offshore everything.
If I do it again I'll slice our niche down thinner than prosciutto, something like CRM integrations for real estate agents, and have contracts that allowed us to own the IP.
> ...and have contracts that allowed us to own the IP.
Is it a dreamland or such clause is really possible in the present day cookie-cutter contracts?
Is it a dreamland or such clause is really possible in the present day cookie-cutter contracts?
It depends.
Large enterprise clients would never let you own the IP. But those gigs are usually pretty profitable because they're large and they can afford high rates.
Small clients mostly don't care unless they are planning on selling the software.
And mid sized clients it seems to depend on whether or not they see it as a cost savings measure or competitive advantage. If it's the latter you can usually justify higher rates.
Large enterprise clients would never let you own the IP. But those gigs are usually pretty profitable because they're large and they can afford high rates.
Small clients mostly don't care unless they are planning on selling the software.
And mid sized clients it seems to depend on whether or not they see it as a cost savings measure or competitive advantage. If it's the latter you can usually justify higher rates.
Would living on investment income be considered as self employed. I quit my management job of Tech department of my company.
Saved enough money to generate 80 percent of my last drawn salary from my investments.
Now focusing on creating my own fintech web app, with generative ai integration.
I like the feeling of working independently and years of corporate job had taken taken toll on mental health.
Currently building skills in fullstack web development and generative ai. Would take freelance job for some extra cash
Saved enough money to generate 80 percent of my last drawn salary from my investments.
Now focusing on creating my own fintech web app, with generative ai integration.
I like the feeling of working independently and years of corporate job had taken taken toll on mental health.
Currently building skills in fullstack web development and generative ai. Would take freelance job for some extra cash
so asking the big and obvious question: in what did yo invest?
I am based out of India
70% of my portfolio is in equity mutual funds, and the rest in safe instruments.
The Indian stock markets have given good returns and my equity portfolio has been doing 17% CAGR (10% inflation-adjusted)
But I have planned for conservative returns of 12 percent overall
But I have planned for conservative returns of 12 percent overall
12% is not conservative
40 year index return from Indian stock market have been around 15 percent without dividend reinvestment.
The long term inflation rate has been 7 to 8 percent and bonds have returned par with inflation rates
The long term inflation rate has been 7 to 8 percent and bonds have returned par with inflation rates
It is in India.
I apologize if this is a stupid question but why wouldn't everyone be investing in India with these returns being standard? In the US we would assume a conservative rate of 7%
The 12% returns are not adjusted for inflation or depreciation. Historically, India had a much higher rate of inflation than the US. And the rupee has continuously lost value against the dollar.
US 10 year treasury yields are ~4% while Indian treasury yields are ~7%.
US 10 year treasury yields are ~4% while Indian treasury yields are ~7%.
When adjusted for usd returns might not be that great. Indian currency have been depreciating a lot against usd.
On the other hand my own portfolio has a mutual fund that invest in US stocks for more diversification.
On the other hand my own portfolio has a mutual fund that invest in US stocks for more diversification.
That seems like a very ambitious rate of return, given that India seems to have ~4% inflation rate.
Long term inflation rate has been 7 to 8 percent in india.
I have been self-employed since 2008, when I quit my job in software engineering to go all-in on my software business (that dated from 2003). That failed spectacularly, because I only focused on technology and not on the value I was creating, and with few customers, I had to do on-site contracting for more than a year before going on full-time parental leave.
I then rebooted my software project, launched a landing site and started talking to prospects (hundreds of them), before I set out to pivot my existing product to something that might gain traction. (I wound up throwing away 95 percent of the code.) I spent 2014 through 2019 with the product in beta, barely making a living off of a few enterprise support contracts and doing freelance photography (and depleting my savings), but spending at least 80 percent of my time on building the product and getting it to a finished state.
(Some people seem to be able to build a product in a weekend that gets eager customers. I'm not one of those people, choosing to build something that was, in retrospect, much too big of a project for one person. I probably also spent too much time polishing the product before commercializing it, likely due to a fear of failure.)
In 2019, the product was finally commercialized as a SaaS service. I remember thinking that I either wanted it to be a spectacular success, or a spectacular failure (so that I could focus on other things, after close to 20 years).
It was neither, but has been growing steadily ever since. I would have made much more money working for someone else, but the freedom is unparalleled. I get to set my own hours and focus on things I consider important. I enjoy doing everything from support calls and UX work to building a compiler and a type system (that I have mentioned before on HN).
I also have no one I need to answer to, other than our customers. That has been important over the past couple of years, when a series of health emergencies in my family has diverted my attention elsewhere. I have been very fortunate to be able to do so, focusing on what's important, without having to ask permission to cut down on work temporarily.
Overall, I wouldn't trade this for anything. This year, my product will gain a sister product in a more lucrative field (I'm hoping), and I have plans to commercialize my compiler, both as a service and as a traditionally-licensed library. So I'm excited to stay solo and keep working on building the business.
I then rebooted my software project, launched a landing site and started talking to prospects (hundreds of them), before I set out to pivot my existing product to something that might gain traction. (I wound up throwing away 95 percent of the code.) I spent 2014 through 2019 with the product in beta, barely making a living off of a few enterprise support contracts and doing freelance photography (and depleting my savings), but spending at least 80 percent of my time on building the product and getting it to a finished state.
(Some people seem to be able to build a product in a weekend that gets eager customers. I'm not one of those people, choosing to build something that was, in retrospect, much too big of a project for one person. I probably also spent too much time polishing the product before commercializing it, likely due to a fear of failure.)
In 2019, the product was finally commercialized as a SaaS service. I remember thinking that I either wanted it to be a spectacular success, or a spectacular failure (so that I could focus on other things, after close to 20 years).
It was neither, but has been growing steadily ever since. I would have made much more money working for someone else, but the freedom is unparalleled. I get to set my own hours and focus on things I consider important. I enjoy doing everything from support calls and UX work to building a compiler and a type system (that I have mentioned before on HN).
I also have no one I need to answer to, other than our customers. That has been important over the past couple of years, when a series of health emergencies in my family has diverted my attention elsewhere. I have been very fortunate to be able to do so, focusing on what's important, without having to ask permission to cut down on work temporarily.
Overall, I wouldn't trade this for anything. This year, my product will gain a sister product in a more lucrative field (I'm hoping), and I have plans to commercialize my compiler, both as a service and as a traditionally-licensed library. So I'm excited to stay solo and keep working on building the business.
That's some very impressive stamina and it must have been really hard at times.
Thanks, it certainly has been. After only a couple of years in the software industry proper, though, I felt I had seen all I needed to see. Crunch time. Arbitrary, ill-informed management decisions. Management who didn't believe in the product the team was passionate about. Products canceled through no fault of anyone working on it. Office politics and bickering.
With my own business, I gain agency. If the product fails, it's because I failed to market it properly, or the product vision was bad and did not resonate with enough customers, or because I failed to execute on that vision. When all the decisions are out of your hands, and you can't even see what prompted them, they can feel capricious and arbitrary.
With my own business, I am in control. I don't have one boss, I have hundreds of them. And as long as I continue to provide them with value, I get to continue doing what I'm doing. I like those terms.
With my own business, I gain agency. If the product fails, it's because I failed to market it properly, or the product vision was bad and did not resonate with enough customers, or because I failed to execute on that vision. When all the decisions are out of your hands, and you can't even see what prompted them, they can feel capricious and arbitrary.
With my own business, I am in control. I don't have one boss, I have hundreds of them. And as long as I continue to provide them with value, I get to continue doing what I'm doing. I like those terms.
Yes, to all of that. But: the amount of control is directly proportional to how fat your wallet is, as it gets leaner you lose some of that agency so make sure you never even go close to depleting your reserves. That's a lesson I learned the hard way at some point and it causes me to be pretty cautious from a financial perspective. So far so good ;)
I am. I founded PG Support (https://pgsupport.dk).
We are a small team of experienced PostgreSQL consultants.
I really like having close contact to customers as well having a very high variance in the type of work that I do.
I also run DebianSupport (https://debiansupport.com) from which we provide professional services for Linux. Mostly Debian and Ubuntu but not exclusively so.
Having used Linux extensively since 1997 and PostgreSQL since 2000, I really like working with both pieces of technology. And I love being able to provide value from my skills and experience.
I really like having close contact to customers as well having a very high variance in the type of work that I do.
I also run DebianSupport (https://debiansupport.com) from which we provide professional services for Linux. Mostly Debian and Ubuntu but not exclusively so.
Having used Linux extensively since 1997 and PostgreSQL since 2000, I really like working with both pieces of technology. And I love being able to provide value from my skills and experience.
I am for a couple years now. I do consulting work [1] around Rust/Embedded Systems/Systems Engineering, usually helping teams that are either kicking off a project (so helping with planning, scoping, and backfilling knowledge gaps), or people who want help building a proof of concept (so: just build it for me asap) for existing companies exploring new ideas or for startups that are working on demos for investors, etc.
I've been active on both the open source and commercial side of embedded Rust since the beginning, so it's been fun to watch it grow both as an ecosystem as well as from a commercial adoption perspective. Doing consulting makes it easier to help do more open source docs + support in the open, and seems to be one of more sustainable ways to do OSS in my opinion, if you can swing it.
[1]: https://onevariable.com/
I've been active on both the open source and commercial side of embedded Rust since the beginning, so it's been fun to watch it grow both as an ecosystem as well as from a commercial adoption perspective. Doing consulting makes it easier to help do more open source docs + support in the open, and seems to be one of more sustainable ways to do OSS in my opinion, if you can swing it.
[1]: https://onevariable.com/
Just found out about your podcast and I quite enjoyed learning how esp-idf came about. Great content!
> James talks with Scott Mabin about how he joined the Espressif team and got involved in embedded Rust, the working culture in chip manufacturing companies and preferences about designing and building mechanical keyboards.
https://onevariable.com/blog/cwj-ep016-scott-mabin/
> James talks with Scott Mabin about how he joined the Espressif team and got involved in embedded Rust, the working culture in chip manufacturing companies and preferences about designing and building mechanical keyboards.
https://onevariable.com/blog/cwj-ep016-scott-mabin/
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it :)
I’ve been self employed full time for almost 20 years, with one to two employees during that time. It’s a product company which I won’t link to because customers think we’re a big organization.
I worked nights and weekends for about 10 years on the products before they were good enough and selling enough that I could go full time. I’ve focused heavily on not having technical debt, and making the app as user friendly as possible to cut down on customer support burden.
Customer support work on holidays and vacations is required, but only for an hour or two. It’s been a pretty good gig.
I worked nights and weekends for about 10 years on the products before they were good enough and selling enough that I could go full time. I’ve focused heavily on not having technical debt, and making the app as user friendly as possible to cut down on customer support burden.
Customer support work on holidays and vacations is required, but only for an hour or two. It’s been a pretty good gig.
Only around 5% of the products from IndieHackers generate a monthly revenue exceeding ~$8,333 (around ~$100k/year).
Source: https://scrapingfish.com/blog/indie-hackers-revenue
Source: https://scrapingfish.com/blog/indie-hackers-revenue
Part time freelancing is underrated. More people should try it. That frees up a lot of time for indie hacking
Do you have any tips for starting out trying freelancing gigs? I think the main issue would be visibility for me, I still need to build a protifolio that speaks for my skillset, because right now I don't think I have much demonstrable skills outside of a traditional hiring interview pipeline.
I run this free community for fractional tech workers - come check it out:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37419830
The reality is that being self-employed requires building business skills and being able to sell your skills. I previously founded a VC-funded developer marketplace, and the people that won all the jobs were the great communicators - not the most experienced (or inexpensive) developers.
Fractional work is a nice in-between where you ideally have a retained part-time contract, paid weekly or monthly, so that you aren't constantly looking for new projects.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37419830
The reality is that being self-employed requires building business skills and being able to sell your skills. I previously founded a VC-funded developer marketplace, and the people that won all the jobs were the great communicators - not the most experienced (or inexpensive) developers.
Fractional work is a nice in-between where you ideally have a retained part-time contract, paid weekly or monthly, so that you aren't constantly looking for new projects.
Exactly this. I remember back when elance was a thing I signed up and I won my first gig in 2 days. I asked my client why he choose me (charging $1k) when others were bidding to do the job for $50 and he said he liked the message I sent him... Communications is everything.
That is way higher than what I would have expected!
I was self employed for about 10 years until one of the startups I did along the way turned into something and now I have to work there.
This reads quite funny: “god damn it, one of my projects was successful, so it ruined the fun”
That's exactly how it goes though. You put something together on an idle Tuesday evening and you end up as the person running a 30 people company if you're not very careful about it. Success has a massive price tag.
Thanks for fueling my success anxiety.
YW :)
Here's to hoping you succeed. The thing I messed up: personal relationships due to business success.
Here's to hoping you succeed. The thing I messed up: personal relationships due to business success.
Thanks! I was actually writing exactly this in another comment above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39268994
As someone with a likely ADHD, it's very hard to plan for multiple things in my head, I can usually focus only on one big event at a time: product release, party event, plan romantic date, etc. So, usually I do have to choose onlu one thing to prioritize in the short-term.
As someone with a likely ADHD, it's very hard to plan for multiple things in my head, I can usually focus only on one big event at a time: product release, party event, plan romantic date, etc. So, usually I do have to choose onlu one thing to prioritize in the short-term.
Apologies for the late answer. I'm 58 and I still struggle with this. Time management, especially with multiple high priority competing interests is super hard, more so when there are other people involved.
I'm doing full time freelancing in the UK and loving it tbh, but sometimes it can get a bit difficult to handle.
I was doing typical employment until October 2023 while doing some part time freelancing. The company had layoffs and I decided to do more freelancing while I look for the next job. Then the freelancing pay became double or more what I'd make from normal employment, so I am unlikely to get back to "being an employee" unless the situation changes significantly.
Initially I was worried about being able to find enough gigs to be able to make enough income to survive, but now my main struggle is to not take on too many responsibilities at once to be able to keep the clients happy, and even had to turn a few people down because I'm getting too busy...
I do get some spare time for myself to work on my own things, a few of those projects do bring income, but my main income source and the thing that takes most of my day is the freelancing.
I hired an accounting company to take care of taxes and stuff.
Most of my clients are in the UK.
I work partially through Toptal and some through my network.
I can't complain too much about it!
I was doing typical employment until October 2023 while doing some part time freelancing. The company had layoffs and I decided to do more freelancing while I look for the next job. Then the freelancing pay became double or more what I'd make from normal employment, so I am unlikely to get back to "being an employee" unless the situation changes significantly.
Initially I was worried about being able to find enough gigs to be able to make enough income to survive, but now my main struggle is to not take on too many responsibilities at once to be able to keep the clients happy, and even had to turn a few people down because I'm getting too busy...
I do get some spare time for myself to work on my own things, a few of those projects do bring income, but my main income source and the thing that takes most of my day is the freelancing.
I hired an accounting company to take care of taxes and stuff.
Most of my clients are in the UK.
I work partially through Toptal and some through my network.
I can't complain too much about it!
Self employed since 2005.
I run 2 long-term consulting gigs (one of them is an Elixir project for the French government at https://transport.data.gouv.fr?locale=en, the other is in the healthcare sector).
I have also bootstrapped various products (and plan to do more in the future).
I run 2 long-term consulting gigs (one of them is an Elixir project for the French government at https://transport.data.gouv.fr?locale=en, the other is in the healthcare sector).
I have also bootstrapped various products (and plan to do more in the future).
Me as well! I've started working at startups as an employee about ~6 years ago.
And did my first freelance project about 3 years ago. Mostly doing FullStack with a FE focus. From then I've been working on and off due to studies.
It certainly has its upsides and downsides. Here in Germany, freelancing allows one to somewhat escape generally low salary for employed software developers (as compared to the US). But what I don't enjoy is the distance to the actual issue/customer at hand. It's on average a much more corporate form of work. And the last couple months have been very slow in terms of demand.
And did my first freelance project about 3 years ago. Mostly doing FullStack with a FE focus. From then I've been working on and off due to studies.
It certainly has its upsides and downsides. Here in Germany, freelancing allows one to somewhat escape generally low salary for employed software developers (as compared to the US). But what I don't enjoy is the distance to the actual issue/customer at hand. It's on average a much more corporate form of work. And the last couple months have been very slow in terms of demand.
Long-time lurker, first time poster. Here goes… Founder CEO of a bootstrapped compliance engineering startup. Ex-FAANG who got really frustrated by the engineering toil caused by audit and compliance management. Most compliance tasks are manual, repetitive, tactical, and lack enduring value. As an engineer who spent 20 years dealing with auditors and regulators globally and who understands compliance really really well, I knew I had to change things or I would never forgive myself. If you’re an engineer who’s had to face auditors you know what I am talking about :-)
Anyways, building out an automated cloud compliance platform. MVP is coming out in the next few months. B2B subscription based SaaS platform for automated SOC 2 compliance in AWS. Post MVP looking at PCI and then some of the data privacy regulations. Also reviewing upcoming compliance requirements for AI and Electric Vehicle Charging Management Systems (EVCMS).
PS: Happy to answer any engineering questions or share tips on how to become compliant with least toil. Regulators aren’t engineers and engineers don’t understand what needs to be minimally done to get the auditors off their back, so this is my way of giving back to the community. Traveling internationally and will respond here on a best effort basis, or my LinkedIn (listed in my HN profile) is the best way to reach me.
Cheers! Vic
Anyways, building out an automated cloud compliance platform. MVP is coming out in the next few months. B2B subscription based SaaS platform for automated SOC 2 compliance in AWS. Post MVP looking at PCI and then some of the data privacy regulations. Also reviewing upcoming compliance requirements for AI and Electric Vehicle Charging Management Systems (EVCMS).
PS: Happy to answer any engineering questions or share tips on how to become compliant with least toil. Regulators aren’t engineers and engineers don’t understand what needs to be minimally done to get the auditors off their back, so this is my way of giving back to the community. Traveling internationally and will respond here on a best effort basis, or my LinkedIn (listed in my HN profile) is the best way to reach me.
Cheers! Vic
I've been independently employed the for 13 years as a software consultant. Most of my work has been building web-based business software for small/medium sized businesses. This involves both designing and implementing solutions for non-technical clients. It's a lot of greenfield design and development, which feels a lot like working in an early stage startup.
I have at times taken 6mo - 24mo contracts as just a software engineer when the pay and environment were good enough. This work is far less interesting, because someone else is typically designing what is to be built.
I have at times taken 6mo - 24mo contracts as just a software engineer when the pay and environment were good enough. This work is far less interesting, because someone else is typically designing what is to be built.
>It's a lot of greenfield design and development, which feels a lot like working in an early stage startup.
What does this mean?
Also how'd you get your first business?
What does this mean?
Also how'd you get your first business?
The term “greenfield” comes from physical development- a you are taking a “green field” and turning it into a factory or housing or similar. It’s contrasted to “brownfield” which means developing in or over an already built up area.
In software development “greenfield” generally refers to new systems development whereas “brownfield” refers to the maintenance, extension, or enhancement of existing systems and solutions.
In software development “greenfield” generally refers to new systems development whereas “brownfield” refers to the maintenance, extension, or enhancement of existing systems and solutions.
Sibling comments both answered the greenfield thing as I would have :)
As for first business, I built a very small network over 7 years working in house at an advertising agency (which did a lot of digital work) and some startups. While I was just an IC developer, because I could communicate with non-technical people well, I became the first point of contact for a lot of decision makers over time.
If you want to do solo technical consulting start making friends with non-technical people who are in leadership roles. It takes time but it does snowball.
As for first business, I built a very small network over 7 years working in house at an advertising agency (which did a lot of digital work) and some startups. While I was just an IC developer, because I could communicate with non-technical people well, I became the first point of contact for a lot of decision makers over time.
If you want to do solo technical consulting start making friends with non-technical people who are in leadership roles. It takes time but it does snowball.
Greenfield development is a way of saying "new and from scratch" usually, whereas editing an existing codebase would not be.
I was self employed from 2009 to 2018. I was an embedded programmer / debugger and I had two major sources of income debugging engineering development boards for two boutique companies. I got the first gig from a friend who worked at one, the second by spamming the embedded world conference, and a handful more through linkedin. I couldn’t really travel because I needed a lab with test equipment. But I did double my previous salary north of 200k and I worked as much or as little as needed. It ended up being an average 40hr work week overall. The one thing I missed out on was equity. A decade without bonuses, RSUs, or options really set me back compared to my peers. Plus I hated having to stress about finding new contracts or if I was going to get cut loose. Finally I quit and went back to a big employer and I’m much happier to not have that financial stress and to have equity again.
>Finally I ... went back to a big employer and I’m much happier
I have a similar timeline: dropped out in 2009 and started a few blue collar shops (mostly electrician-related). By 2019 I realized (with substantial help from clients / friends) I didn't want to be "on call" 24/7, as bossman, so over the next two years I fired all but my two best clients.
Reflecting on my worklife, I am grateful for so many of my clients/experiences; but it sure would have been a whole lot "easier" had I just worked W2 for somebody else [as were my IBEW apprenticeship days].
I had a family emergency 2022Q1 and then lost my housing 2023Q1 (to a landslide), so I've been promising myself "get employed 2024Q1;" and now with all these layoffs, I've just accepted that this will be my second year I don't have to file income taxes (legally, no income).
The one great thing about being self-employed is it does allow higher wages, flexibility, etc.; in my case, I have enough savings to last decades. If I had a family I would definitely prefer the stability and work/life balance of being a W2 employee [verse running a company, managing clients, installing, etc].
I have a similar timeline: dropped out in 2009 and started a few blue collar shops (mostly electrician-related). By 2019 I realized (with substantial help from clients / friends) I didn't want to be "on call" 24/7, as bossman, so over the next two years I fired all but my two best clients.
Reflecting on my worklife, I am grateful for so many of my clients/experiences; but it sure would have been a whole lot "easier" had I just worked W2 for somebody else [as were my IBEW apprenticeship days].
I had a family emergency 2022Q1 and then lost my housing 2023Q1 (to a landslide), so I've been promising myself "get employed 2024Q1;" and now with all these layoffs, I've just accepted that this will be my second year I don't have to file income taxes (legally, no income).
The one great thing about being self-employed is it does allow higher wages, flexibility, etc.; in my case, I have enough savings to last decades. If I had a family I would definitely prefer the stability and work/life balance of being a W2 employee [verse running a company, managing clients, installing, etc].
Sounds like we had similar experiences except for the LANDSLIDE. That sounds horrible!
Do you really need to work if you have decades of savings? Or is it more about just having something to do?
Do you really need to work if you have decades of savings? Or is it more about just having something to do?
>having something to do
Absolutely.
After the first year, unencumbered, it gets kind of boring (probably because I don't have enough savings to do everything/travel, just to eat/shelter).
Absolutely.
After the first year, unencumbered, it gets kind of boring (probably because I don't have enough savings to do everything/travel, just to eat/shelter).
I’be been self employed for ~1.5yrs after quitting my job to build a GUI for Kubernetes [1]
It’s not easy to get started, but im very happy with this change after being a FTE for 15yrs. It’s a refreshing experience having to talk to customers to understand their pain points and then build something for it
I’m also doing some part time freelancing, so with my products + freelancing I’m earning way more than as a FTE
[1] https://aptakube.com
It’s not easy to get started, but im very happy with this change after being a FTE for 15yrs. It’s a refreshing experience having to talk to customers to understand their pain points and then build something for it
I’m also doing some part time freelancing, so with my products + freelancing I’m earning way more than as a FTE
[1] https://aptakube.com
Hey I bought aptakube! Very neat product, doesn't suffer from any of the issues that the other GUI k8s apps have. I found it on an awesome-tauri github list.
However I still rely on k9s due to the key bindings and plugin system being irreplaceable. That could change, I'd really like to do things like toggle FluxCD resources or do other custom actions directly in aptakube.
Great product!
However I still rely on k9s due to the key bindings and plugin system being irreplaceable. That could change, I'd really like to do things like toggle FluxCD resources or do other custom actions directly in aptakube.
Great product!
Thank you :)
I’ve been thinking of building custom UI for popular CRDs like FluxCD/Argo/others, but I need to get a few highly requested features out of the way first.
I’ve been thinking of building custom UI for popular CRDs like FluxCD/Argo/others, but I need to get a few highly requested features out of the way first.
Self-employed for 10 years now as the co-runner of Apsis Labs (https://apsis.io); we're a software development agency with a focus on healthcare technology and HIPAA compliance.
After a decade of building products for clients, we've recently launched our own bootstrapped SaaS offering: https://reamdocs.com --- the contract management platform we've built in-house to manage our services business for the last 5 years.
That all pays the bills, but what sustains me is my time outside of work: my family, my hobbies, my cat. Joys which I have time for because self-employment has allowed me to set my own hours, walk away from toxic clients, and freedom to do what is interesting on any given day.
After a decade of building products for clients, we've recently launched our own bootstrapped SaaS offering: https://reamdocs.com --- the contract management platform we've built in-house to manage our services business for the last 5 years.
That all pays the bills, but what sustains me is my time outside of work: my family, my hobbies, my cat. Joys which I have time for because self-employment has allowed me to set my own hours, walk away from toxic clients, and freedom to do what is interesting on any given day.
Does selling programming ebooks count?
I left my job in 2014 (worked for a semiconductor company), muddled around for 4+ years with not much to show before writing programming ebooks allowed me to earn a living. Fast forward to 2024 and I'm still only earning about 1/3 of what I used to earn (without even considering inflation, what my salary could've been now, etc), but it works for me.
I left my job in 2014 (worked for a semiconductor company), muddled around for 4+ years with not much to show before writing programming ebooks allowed me to earn a living. Fast forward to 2024 and I'm still only earning about 1/3 of what I used to earn (without even considering inflation, what my salary could've been now, etc), but it works for me.
I've been self-employed for nearly two years. I work on a Chrome extension [1] that is used by a significant fraction of the US legal cannabis industry for compliance.
2/3 of my time is spent on consulting projects, which pay better, and the rest is spent maintaining the platform. At the moment, the platform is self-sustaining and the revenue from it is growing fast. I work some of the largest companies in the industry, which is great for network building. The flexibility in schedule it offers is terrific, and I have no need to fundraise or hire.
[1] https://www.trackandtrace.tools/
2/3 of my time is spent on consulting projects, which pay better, and the rest is spent maintaining the platform. At the moment, the platform is self-sustaining and the revenue from it is growing fast. I work some of the largest companies in the industry, which is great for network building. The flexibility in schedule it offers is terrific, and I have no need to fundraise or hire.
[1] https://www.trackandtrace.tools/
I'm in the process of standing up a Chrome & Firefox extension. Can I ask what your route to traction was? Many thanks...
Currently self-employed with a web hosting company started with some former colleagues when the company we used to work for was bought out and shut down. We were fortunate to be included in a list of alternate providers that the old company gave to their customers and had an early influx of a couple thousand customers. As a result we've got a ton of customers who we've been working with for 16+ years.
I handle the customer-facing stuff, ie service and support. That sort of work has the downside of dealing with occasional negativity, but for the most part our customers are happy and capable of producing complex problems that are fun to solve :)
I handle the customer-facing stuff, ie service and support. That sort of work has the downside of dealing with occasional negativity, but for the most part our customers are happy and capable of producing complex problems that are fun to solve :)
Yo!
Opalstacker here as well, is it 16 years now? Wow, time flies!
Sending my greetings to Sean, best support I've ever had :D.
Opalstacker here as well, is it 16 years now? Wow, time flies!
Sending my greetings to Sean, best support I've ever had :D.
Greetings from another web hosting junkie! 25 years in the business this year.
Happy customer here!
I've been self-employed for the past 5 years, coincidentally because job recruitment processes were so ridiculous and time sinks at the time (spent ~6 months getting bounced around and ghosted), can't even imagine how things are nowadays.
In the past 3 years through my company (https://webesque.agency) with the aim of expanding in digital product delivery, though I haven't invested enough time and marketing on that front yet. Thus I continue to contract and consult on DevOps automation and Cloud related projects for the time being.
In the past 3 years through my company (https://webesque.agency) with the aim of expanding in digital product delivery, though I haven't invested enough time and marketing on that front yet. Thus I continue to contract and consult on DevOps automation and Cloud related projects for the time being.
I created a SaaS product (b2b) 7+ years ago. I work on it by myself with no team whatsoever. It generates around a million in profit in every year.
I want one of these so bad! Without spilling secrets: was it luck or a systematic process that gave you the idea for your company?
It may sound like a cop-out, but both?
I have no doubt luck was involved. I hit the market at a good time and gained traction quickly. I have done zero marketing and customers come in through word of mouth and via search engines. Surely there was luck in there.
As for choosing the idea-- that was more systematic. I chose a service that solved a real pain point for many companies in a specific industry. I chose it because it because:
1. There were many competitors (10+). That meant someone was making money, and more importantly, someone was spending money.
2. The industry/customers had a very clear channel for early word of mouth/traction (ie, it was easy to reach the customers and say "hey look at this solution for X").
3. A cottage industry exists around the industry. There are many "influencers" and training seminars, conferences, etc. Once my service gained some traction it was easy to stick around because people kept talking about it at conferences. I also gave access to these "influencers" for free.
I'd say stick to B2B, and look for 1-3 from above.. those are ideal for a solo-SaaS product.
I have no doubt luck was involved. I hit the market at a good time and gained traction quickly. I have done zero marketing and customers come in through word of mouth and via search engines. Surely there was luck in there.
As for choosing the idea-- that was more systematic. I chose a service that solved a real pain point for many companies in a specific industry. I chose it because it because:
1. There were many competitors (10+). That meant someone was making money, and more importantly, someone was spending money.
2. The industry/customers had a very clear channel for early word of mouth/traction (ie, it was easy to reach the customers and say "hey look at this solution for X").
3. A cottage industry exists around the industry. There are many "influencers" and training seminars, conferences, etc. Once my service gained some traction it was easy to stick around because people kept talking about it at conferences. I also gave access to these "influencers" for free.
I'd say stick to B2B, and look for 1-3 from above.. those are ideal for a solo-SaaS product.
Hi @mortallywounded!
As @lorenzk said, thanks for sharing your experience on these things.
You also taught me something meaningful, and you didn't even have to do anything!
I was curious about what kind of product you've made and started stalking your comment history to see if I got some clues about it.
I eventually reach a comment from you (on a thread about a dev. who got his Apple account cancelled) to which I replied ... like ... this ... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38395858
<clown face>
I wish I could hide under a rock now, lol; but on the positive side I feel like I learned how/why one should be more measured in general, to avoid ending up looking in situations like these.
Congrats for shipping whatever it is that you do, and thanks for the life lesson on the side!
As @lorenzk said, thanks for sharing your experience on these things.
You also taught me something meaningful, and you didn't even have to do anything!
I was curious about what kind of product you've made and started stalking your comment history to see if I got some clues about it.
I eventually reach a comment from you (on a thread about a dev. who got his Apple account cancelled) to which I replied ... like ... this ... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38395858
<clown face>
I wish I could hide under a rock now, lol; but on the positive side I feel like I learned how/why one should be more measured in general, to avoid ending up looking in situations like these.
Congrats for shipping whatever it is that you do, and thanks for the life lesson on the side!
Hahahaha, this is hilarious :P
Yes, you never know who you could be talking to. Reminds me of the trial lawyer advice of "never ask a question you don't know the answer to".
Yes, you never know who you could be talking to. Reminds me of the trial lawyer advice of "never ask a question you don't know the answer to".
Thank you for taking the time to respond with so much detail! Good on ya!
I'm a self-employed consultant, generally either CTO-style "make your company run better and build better software" stuff or, less often, specific robotics and automation stuff where I'm legitimately something of an expert. I have a PhD in decision theory / optimisation / meta-computing - and it was all applied to autonomous vehicles. A recent client I've picked up in the mining industry is paying me something like 300% of the highest salary I ever earned before setting out on my own.
In addition, I co-founded a company that makes Escape Rooms. We sold 13 turn-key rooms to other operators, then eventually invested in our own venue. We were the only company in the southern hemisphere to win a prestigious TERPECA award this year, so it's not a stretch to say our venue is probably the best in Australia. I've never earned a cent from this in eight years... But, this year is the one. Maybe. Probably. Hopefully?!?
In addition, I co-founded a company that makes Escape Rooms. We sold 13 turn-key rooms to other operators, then eventually invested in our own venue. We were the only company in the southern hemisphere to win a prestigious TERPECA award this year, so it's not a stretch to say our venue is probably the best in Australia. I've never earned a cent from this in eight years... But, this year is the one. Maybe. Probably. Hopefully?!?
I don't often use the term 'self-employed' because I don't directly receive 1099 income, and I receive a W2 paycheck and benefits, although my employer's headquarters happens to be in my office. But in practical terms, yep I'm self-employed.
We (my wife and I) do business-development for our crazy schemes, sometimes alone, sometimes with the help of up to six contract developers that we love to work with. I fund those crazy schemes by doing contract software development myself. Benefits include 100% paid health and dental insurance, as much 401(k) matching as we can possibly have, and afternoon siestas.
We have no plans to hire anyone else, simply because it would be very important to me to give them a square deal: Equal ownership in the company, equal benefits, nice equipment, and so forth. But I don't mind enlisting other contractors who are already comfortable, and if one of our schemes really takes off, we incorporate a Delaware C-corp around it and make sure everyone owns a piece. That's only happened once, but I managed to quickly step down from the C-suite and become a SW dev contractor at that company.
We (my wife and I) do business-development for our crazy schemes, sometimes alone, sometimes with the help of up to six contract developers that we love to work with. I fund those crazy schemes by doing contract software development myself. Benefits include 100% paid health and dental insurance, as much 401(k) matching as we can possibly have, and afternoon siestas.
We have no plans to hire anyone else, simply because it would be very important to me to give them a square deal: Equal ownership in the company, equal benefits, nice equipment, and so forth. But I don't mind enlisting other contractors who are already comfortable, and if one of our schemes really takes off, we incorporate a Delaware C-corp around it and make sure everyone owns a piece. That's only happened once, but I managed to quickly step down from the C-suite and become a SW dev contractor at that company.
I've been juggling side projects while working full-time as an engineer for the last 15+ years. Most of these projects tanked, but a few have started to bring in some side income. About 6 months ago, I went fully self-employed. I'm not at a Silicon Valley salary range yet, but I should hopefully be there in a year or so.
Main income builders: - https://www.deepwander.com - https://www.readthistwice.com - https://www.iso100mm.com
I've got a background in B2B and product development, and I don't think it would be too hard for me to raise some capital, but I'm intentionally choosing the indie/bootstrapped route as I want to maintain my relaxed lifestyle and have complete ownership and freedom over what I work on and how I do it.
I also enjoy working on B2C way more than B2B because I like seeing my impact on an individual level. But I digress. :)
Main income builders: - https://www.deepwander.com - https://www.readthistwice.com - https://www.iso100mm.com
I've got a background in B2B and product development, and I don't think it would be too hard for me to raise some capital, but I'm intentionally choosing the indie/bootstrapped route as I want to maintain my relaxed lifestyle and have complete ownership and freedom over what I work on and how I do it.
I also enjoy working on B2C way more than B2B because I like seeing my impact on an individual level. But I digress. :)
I got a certificate error you might want to look into:
> Web sites prove their identity via certificates. Firefox does not trust this site because it uses a certificate that is not valid for www.iso100mm.com. The certificate is only valid for the following names: img.iso100mm.com, iso100mm.com
Oh hey that's me! I sell maps on the internet - https://pastmaps.com
After selling my last startup in 2022 and being very burned out I decided to lean deeper into my own hobby - metal detecting. This lead to me building out a lot of cool tooling around historical maps to help me find better areas to detect and I slowly began to realize that there were many other hobbyists and enthusiasts who also were interested in the maps and tools I was building. So Pastmaps was born
The traffic and server costs started snowballing in the past year so I added the ability to buy physical prints of any of the maps in the collection and this has also started to take off. It's only ramen-profitable for now so don't go thinking that this is hugely successful by any means but it's growing on its own so I'm excited to see how big it can get.
Next up is also adding some premium tooling and features that many of my members have been begging me for so fingers crossed!
After selling my last startup in 2022 and being very burned out I decided to lean deeper into my own hobby - metal detecting. This lead to me building out a lot of cool tooling around historical maps to help me find better areas to detect and I slowly began to realize that there were many other hobbyists and enthusiasts who also were interested in the maps and tools I was building. So Pastmaps was born
The traffic and server costs started snowballing in the past year so I added the ability to buy physical prints of any of the maps in the collection and this has also started to take off. It's only ramen-profitable for now so don't go thinking that this is hugely successful by any means but it's growing on its own so I'm excited to see how big it can get.
Next up is also adding some premium tooling and features that many of my members have been begging me for so fingers crossed!
Independently wealthy after working 10 years in the Bay Area. I live in Amsterdam now, but I still consult on for startups if the project seems fun, good to have some extra money for the nieces and nephews.
I'd love to live in the Netherlands but their box-3 tax combined with US taxes (I'm a citizen) seem like a bad scenario. How are you doing with it?
International tax law is complicated, I pay someone to do my US and NL taxes. Overall I'm paying less than I did working in California (state + fed).
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I’m self employed for nearly five years now. Based in France, working mostly with software companies scaling up. I have been learning as I go and have managed to find some good ‘cornerstone’ clients that I have been working with regularly since I started. These are supplemented with shorter contracts and freelance work, anything from a one-off gig to a couple of months.
I set myself the goal of earning the same or better (after taxes) as what I was as a full time worker in the same sorts of companies I am now working in, and I’ve always managed that - plus I get many more hours in the week to spend with the family, I don’t have to travel constantly, and I can run every day without thinking too hard about how I am going to fit it in around sleep, family, work, and the rest of life.
I sometimes miss a few things about working in a ‘normal’ job in France (job security, sick leave, paid vacations) but the freedom to create my own schedule and fit work around life a lot of the time more than makes up for that.
I set myself the goal of earning the same or better (after taxes) as what I was as a full time worker in the same sorts of companies I am now working in, and I’ve always managed that - plus I get many more hours in the week to spend with the family, I don’t have to travel constantly, and I can run every day without thinking too hard about how I am going to fit it in around sleep, family, work, and the rest of life.
I sometimes miss a few things about working in a ‘normal’ job in France (job security, sick leave, paid vacations) but the freedom to create my own schedule and fit work around life a lot of the time more than makes up for that.
I teach whitewater kayaking and swiftwater rescue with my company https://whitewaterworkshop.com. I started doing it on nights and weekends around a full time tech job and then when COVID hit, demand for outdoor activities skyrocketed so I went full time with it.
I worked in tech for about 15 years where I paid off my student loans very aggressively, then once those were done I started pushing the same amount of money into retirement and savings accounts. My wife and I have no kids and were probably putting $50k+/year away. Turns out if you do that for 15 years, you end up with enough money to never need to worry about rent or health insurance again and you can choose what you want to do that is more fun. For me that was instructing and leading epic multi-week rafting trips like the Grand Canyon 3 times, the Maranon River in Peru, and the Alsek River in Alaska.
I worked in tech for about 15 years where I paid off my student loans very aggressively, then once those were done I started pushing the same amount of money into retirement and savings accounts. My wife and I have no kids and were probably putting $50k+/year away. Turns out if you do that for 15 years, you end up with enough money to never need to worry about rent or health insurance again and you can choose what you want to do that is more fun. For me that was instructing and leading epic multi-week rafting trips like the Grand Canyon 3 times, the Maranon River in Peru, and the Alsek River in Alaska.
Solo founder at Emysound[1].
Started 10 years ago as an open-source project, building an algorithm for audio fingerprinting. Added a commercial offering, selling storage built specifically for audio fingerprints, targeting enterprise customers. Since the offering was too technical (it's hard to sell solutions to problems that are too narrow and domain-specific), pivoted to more "business-oriented problems". This last year's pivot is a chance to finally grow. Running a business in single-player mode is, at times, too stressful. Aside from the technical part, which I very much enjoy, I need to wear marketing, sales, and customer support hats.
[1] - https://emysound.com [2] - https://github.com/AddictedCS/soundfingerprinting
[1] - https://emysound.com [2] - https://github.com/AddictedCS/soundfingerprinting
I run a fractional CTO business. I started it in 2013, went full time as CTO with my 4th client and stayed through exit a couple of years back, and then took on multiple clients again starting around 12 months ago.
The flexibility and being my own boss is great. I have enough bandwidth to work on long term bets, while keeping income flowing. The type of clients who hire fractional CTOs can be challenging - they're typically bootstrapping, and often have unrealistic expectations. Finding new clients hasn't been particularly hard, at least so far; word of mouth in my network has been about 70% of engagements, with online postings the remainder.
Not for everybody. I own my house and don't have kids, so I have a high risk tolerance. But, if you have a safety net and the confidence in your skills, it's a great lifestyle.
The flexibility and being my own boss is great. I have enough bandwidth to work on long term bets, while keeping income flowing. The type of clients who hire fractional CTOs can be challenging - they're typically bootstrapping, and often have unrealistic expectations. Finding new clients hasn't been particularly hard, at least so far; word of mouth in my network has been about 70% of engagements, with online postings the remainder.
Not for everybody. I own my house and don't have kids, so I have a high risk tolerance. But, if you have a safety net and the confidence in your skills, it's a great lifestyle.
That sounds like a fantastic business. Are you hiring more fractional CTOs? I'd love to check you guys out and apply.
Self employed on Maths education. Doing a variety of part time job, mainly tutoring. Salary is not great but somehow I'm on my 12th year of being self employed
Math tutoring was my main gig for years around and after college. In New Jersey I had plenty of $50/hr cash clients (circa 2010). Some were even up to $100/hr.
It's an excellent self-employment opportunity with virtually zero costs (other than traveling to students by car).
It's an excellent self-employment opportunity with virtually zero costs (other than traveling to students by car).
Founded sapien.ai in 2016 - evolved from web chatbots and voice search SDKs, to custom LLMs and generative ai search, etc. Brought in a co-founder and did the Sand Hill Road Shuffle, met with A16z, Benchmark, Sequoia, Accel, (and a whole bunch of smaller ones), plus made it to the final interview at YC. But then A16Z passed, and so everyone else did too, and then my co-founder quit because of the stress of raising capital - and also because crypto was going through a hype cycle (ICOs). So I went back to bootstrapping and have been profitable ever since. I have been fortunate to work with global brands such as the Olympics, NBA, NFL, Home Depot, Virgin Atlantic, and more.
Interesting thread. Anyone here in the U.S. and supporting a family? The main hurdle for me starting my own business is cost of healthcare. I haven't looked too deeply into options, but I assume I'd be taking on a huge cost to support a spouse and children.
Be sure to make complete use of any subsidies you can get through the marketplace.
For example, if you saved up some money to live off of while you get your business going, it's very possible that your net income for the year could be negative (or at least very low), so with a spouse and kids it's feasible that your insurance premiums could be $0.
Of course, once you start making money, you'll want to dial back and eventually stop using the subsidies, otherwise come tax time you'll have to pay them all back for that year.
For example, if you saved up some money to live off of while you get your business going, it's very possible that your net income for the year could be negative (or at least very low), so with a spouse and kids it's feasible that your insurance premiums could be $0.
Of course, once you start making money, you'll want to dial back and eventually stop using the subsidies, otherwise come tax time you'll have to pay them all back for that year.
If you don't have any current expensive active costs the marketplace is fine. It's not great if you have a spouse or kids who suffers from a chronic condition that is hard to get covered for, but it's mostly fine for most health catastrophes.
I make video games [1] and TikToks [2] about them. I’m a solo game dev doing the coding, design and business/marketing stuff. I’ve worked in mainstream games and as a CTO at a few companies but my passion is making small games I can prototype in a few days and release within a week or so. After trying a lot of different roles the satisfaction of building something hundreds of thousands of people play that I have total control over is deeply fulfilling.
[1] https://attackmove.io/playit
[2] https://tiktok.com/@attackmove
[1] https://attackmove.io/playit
[2] https://tiktok.com/@attackmove
What's your experience with tiktok? How well does it perform in terms of attracting people to buy your stuff? Do videos besides plays on popular memes du jour do any good?
It’s been amazing. I’ve had about 30% of people that follow me join my Discord which is 10x higher than I expected. Meme videos do the best but a loyal fan base see and enjoys my regular dev style videos too. I do the same on Reels and Shorts with less success. But I enjoy learning which videos do better on each platform.
I'm currently self employed, but I just accepted a role in big tech. After 4 years I was able to set up my recruiting company to run without me, so I can earn about $300K-$500K per year from that, plus my full-time salary.
I'm also working on a new SaaS product (co-pilot + CRM for small recruiting agencies). I'm looking for someone to work on it with me. Tech stack is svelte kit + node + python for custom models. I have an audience of 160K followers on LinkedIn, mostly recruiters, that I can reach when the product is launched.
If you are looking for an interesting side project that will generate revenue, email robert at getditto dot com.
I'm also working on a new SaaS product (co-pilot + CRM for small recruiting agencies). I'm looking for someone to work on it with me. Tech stack is svelte kit + node + python for custom models. I have an audience of 160K followers on LinkedIn, mostly recruiters, that I can reach when the product is launched.
If you are looking for an interesting side project that will generate revenue, email robert at getditto dot com.
I'm virtually self employed, started about one year ago. Taxes are HIGH where I live, it's a little cheaper for employer to subcontract, so he pays the same overall, I got a raise. I currently have probably one of highest pays for my region, so would have to move to other city to earn more. Plus I do some freelancing in free hours, to bring some more money. Bought a little too big home for my means (it was just before everything suddenly went 2x, "finished" it just before pandemic), so I'm spending everything I get. I earn twice what some of my friends get, but they have more for "life".
Self employed since 2006. Currently working for a couple of customers. Three of them would be too much, no meaningful weekly deliveries for at least one of them. Current stacks: Django with server side rendering and Rails with a Vue.js frontend. Side projects on my home servers in whatever fits short time slots and small footprints: Lua with OpenResty, Python with customized http.server POST and GET methods, Ruby and bash scripts. Possibly other things that don't come to my mind now.
The greatest thing it to be able to adjust the daily and weekly schedule around what I want or have to do and when, and no commuting.
The greatest thing it to be able to adjust the daily and weekly schedule around what I want or have to do and when, and no commuting.
How do you manage?
I have difficult managing two clients. How do you switch context, and make sure your are fairly distributing time and focus for each client, while not getting overwhelmed. My psychiatrist suspected ADHD, so probably that's why context switching is difficult for me. How do you make yourself to stay on the task and meet deadlines?
I have difficult managing two clients. How do you switch context, and make sure your are fairly distributing time and focus for each client, while not getting overwhelmed. My psychiatrist suspected ADHD, so probably that's why context switching is difficult for me. How do you make yourself to stay on the task and meet deadlines?
Two consecutive days for a customer, tree days for the other one. Ideally it would be 2+2 and 3 free days but it's difficult to find a new customer that is happy with only 2 days.
Anyway, yes context switching can be a problem. That's why those days must be consecutive. Furthermore, I write down in a text file a few lines about what I did every day and how many hours I spent. My file goes back to October 2012. That's very useful to bill customers at the end of the month and to restart from the previous week. I also write short TODOs in the same file about what I'll have to do the next week when I'll be back on the project. Git commit messages and slack chats also help to get back into context.
What else... I have a virtual desktop per customer, with editor windows, terminals, browser windows open all the time. Not having to restart everything every week and finding all pieces in the same place probably helps too. It surely costs some RAM but it's cheap. My laptop has 32 GB, 18.9 used by programs right now according to htop.
Anyway, yes context switching can be a problem. That's why those days must be consecutive. Furthermore, I write down in a text file a few lines about what I did every day and how many hours I spent. My file goes back to October 2012. That's very useful to bill customers at the end of the month and to restart from the previous week. I also write short TODOs in the same file about what I'll have to do the next week when I'll be back on the project. Git commit messages and slack chats also help to get back into context.
What else... I have a virtual desktop per customer, with editor windows, terminals, browser windows open all the time. Not having to restart everything every week and finding all pieces in the same place probably helps too. It surely costs some RAM but it's cheap. My laptop has 32 GB, 18.9 used by programs right now according to htop.
Thank you!
I am trying to write things down for the last few days, before it was Zim (It's still my core knowledge base), I feel I enjoy writing more than typing to note things.
I am trying to write things down for the last few days, before it was Zim (It's still my core knowledge base), I feel I enjoy writing more than typing to note things.
I quit my job and became self-employed ~6 months ago. I work as a freelance developer and I focus on 3D graphics and computer-vision, but I occasionally take on other projects if they are interesting.
I find jobs on Upwork and I do cold reach out on LinkedIn and via email. So far, I managed to keep myself pretty busy and I landed a few pretty good projects. I consider that a success since I went into the freelancing world not knowing much about it.
It's hard, especially with the uncertainty of where the next project/money is coming from, but I can't imagine going back to a full-time employment anytime soon.
I find jobs on Upwork and I do cold reach out on LinkedIn and via email. So far, I managed to keep myself pretty busy and I landed a few pretty good projects. I consider that a success since I went into the freelancing world not knowing much about it.
It's hard, especially with the uncertainty of where the next project/money is coming from, but I can't imagine going back to a full-time employment anytime soon.
If you don't mind my asking where are you based? I am interested in building a consulting business but all my contacts are in industries that are regulated and don't really hire individual consultants. So Upwork and places like it seem attractive but seem like such a race to the bottom due to the saturation of developers from third world countries there.
I am based in London, UK.
And yes, you are right, Upwork can be a race to the bottom. Since I am based in a rather expensive city, I can't really compete with other developers on price, but I can still compete on offering, expertise, commitment, etc.. So far I managed to find enough clients who are willing to pay extra for a premium service.
Naturally, it also depends on the service you are providing. Luckily, my niche is not as saturated yet.
The other point with companies not willing to hire an individual is something I can relate to as well. And not only in regulated industries. It's mostly startups and small companies I work with at the moment.
And yes, you are right, Upwork can be a race to the bottom. Since I am based in a rather expensive city, I can't really compete with other developers on price, but I can still compete on offering, expertise, commitment, etc.. So far I managed to find enough clients who are willing to pay extra for a premium service.
Naturally, it also depends on the service you are providing. Luckily, my niche is not as saturated yet.
The other point with companies not willing to hire an individual is something I can relate to as well. And not only in regulated industries. It's mostly startups and small companies I work with at the moment.
Thanks, good to hear you can make this path work out even somewhere expensive like London.
I'm bootstrapping https://www.crone.ai and making a small amount of money.
I've bootstrapped a few companies. B2B apps are easier since you can do custom work for business clients while you perfect your software.
Crone AI is much harder. It's my first edtech consumer app. It's been live for 3 months and we've made $1,500 so far (lol).
My previous business startups made $200k ARR and $1M ARR. Iterating on consumer apps is more fun and you can still extrapolate growth from small numbers.
I've bootstrapped a few companies. B2B apps are easier since you can do custom work for business clients while you perfect your software.
Crone AI is much harder. It's my first edtech consumer app. It's been live for 3 months and we've made $1,500 so far (lol).
My previous business startups made $200k ARR and $1M ARR. Iterating on consumer apps is more fun and you can still extrapolate growth from small numbers.
I've been a self-employed Ops-Engineer/Sysadmin for hire/Sysadmin-as-a-service for 14 years now, after doing the same as an employee for a consulting company for the 10 years before that.
How does this work? I see sysadmin as having a large day to day component. Do they call you in to setup processes or are you the emergency call?
I'm considering this avenue as well, I'd be interested in an answer from your parent.
I'm ~10 years in as a full stack product dev on brown and green projects for ~100 big and small clients across a range of sectors.
Previously, I worked as a back-end dev in NYC in the media sector - initially at half a real salary because my employer decided to take a gamble on a n00b dev with a degree in writing - and then as a suit wearing front-end dev consultant in the finance sector for 2 years altogether.
I love the flexibility and the range of work. I have had partners and employees but am solo again and enjoying it. My spouse has good health insurance and a more traditional career, albeit one that has required a move every 2-3 years, and that helps quite a bit.
You will save yourself a lot of grief if you can build up your credibility and a good stack of relevant and wide-ranging contacts before you start. Bad clients can cost you more than money.
If you are considering it, be honest with yourself. Many, many folks are better suited to a more structured work life. Advocating for yourself AND your client's best interest is no small challenge when you are solo. Finding a niche, whether in technical expertise or industry focus, will help significantly.
Also – I highly recommend adjusting not just your rates but your billing structure to create more value for clients and better work. E.g. I now have tiered support plans – and tbh if I were based in SV and 10 years younger, I would probably build a SaaS to make it easier for more folks to do that.
Previously, I worked as a back-end dev in NYC in the media sector - initially at half a real salary because my employer decided to take a gamble on a n00b dev with a degree in writing - and then as a suit wearing front-end dev consultant in the finance sector for 2 years altogether.
I love the flexibility and the range of work. I have had partners and employees but am solo again and enjoying it. My spouse has good health insurance and a more traditional career, albeit one that has required a move every 2-3 years, and that helps quite a bit.
You will save yourself a lot of grief if you can build up your credibility and a good stack of relevant and wide-ranging contacts before you start. Bad clients can cost you more than money.
If you are considering it, be honest with yourself. Many, many folks are better suited to a more structured work life. Advocating for yourself AND your client's best interest is no small challenge when you are solo. Finding a niche, whether in technical expertise or industry focus, will help significantly.
Also – I highly recommend adjusting not just your rates but your billing structure to create more value for clients and better work. E.g. I now have tiered support plans – and tbh if I were based in SV and 10 years younger, I would probably build a SaaS to make it easier for more folks to do that.
I am at the moment due to being in a bit of an odd situation.
I've been hit by layoffs in tech twice in the past 2 years. Once due to the consultancy I was working in selling, and all non-billable roles being terminated as a part of the sale. Then I joined a mid-sized startup as a head of engineering, and it turned out their remote work policies were bogus and they wanted me in the office all the time, and so they ended my probation.
So I'm a bit disillusioned with the hiring process in tech right now, so I'm working on two things:
1. Building market pricing intelligence software (basically manual scraping and data engineering, but I have plans to make it more sophisticated) to track prices of products in the market. I've got a couple of profitable no-risk ways to use this data, and it's started off nicely. And I think one day the tool will be worth a lot.
2. Working in my wife's gourmet packaged food business. It makes good money, and a large part of the business is waiting around for dehydrators or ovens to do their thing... so it means I have time to work on code while bringing in steady money.
I'm going to check out the fractional work/moonlighting job sites someone else posted as it might be a better way to more effectively make money to support my family while I build, but then again it's pretty satisfying working with my hands making food.
I've been hit by layoffs in tech twice in the past 2 years. Once due to the consultancy I was working in selling, and all non-billable roles being terminated as a part of the sale. Then I joined a mid-sized startup as a head of engineering, and it turned out their remote work policies were bogus and they wanted me in the office all the time, and so they ended my probation.
So I'm a bit disillusioned with the hiring process in tech right now, so I'm working on two things:
1. Building market pricing intelligence software (basically manual scraping and data engineering, but I have plans to make it more sophisticated) to track prices of products in the market. I've got a couple of profitable no-risk ways to use this data, and it's started off nicely. And I think one day the tool will be worth a lot.
2. Working in my wife's gourmet packaged food business. It makes good money, and a large part of the business is waiting around for dehydrators or ovens to do their thing... so it means I have time to work on code while bringing in steady money.
I'm going to check out the fractional work/moonlighting job sites someone else posted as it might be a better way to more effectively make money to support my family while I build, but then again it's pretty satisfying working with my hands making food.
What fractional / moonlighting sites are you referring to?
Self-employed running https://bankstatement2csv.com
Like the url implies, it's a pdf bank statement to csv converter. What Rob Walling from microconf would call a 'step 1 business'.
I quit my job in December to work on it full time. It doesn't pay the bills yet (current MRR $590/month), but it is slowly growing! Little bit of a race to see if I can pay my bills with it before I run out of runway.
I quit my job in December to work on it full time. It doesn't pay the bills yet (current MRR $590/month), but it is slowly growing! Little bit of a race to see if I can pay my bills with it before I run out of runway.
Nice! What did you do in terms of marketing to get to ~$600 MRR?
I've tried a variety of things (LinkedIn Ads, Reddit Ads, Google Ads, SEO, responding to relevant reddit questions). Most of the paying customers come from google ads, but a few have come from my reddit comments.
The reddit comments are pretty direct, like, the poster is asking about how to convert pdf bank statements to csv and I provide a link w/ full transparency that I'm the developer.
The reddit comments are pretty direct, like, the poster is asking about how to convert pdf bank statements to csv and I provide a link w/ full transparency that I'm the developer.
Me! Since about 2019 I started designing and selling circuit boards among other things. I came from nothing,no funding support, just investing a few hundred dollars here and there and applying my own beliefs. I am forever grateful and won't take it for granted. I get to work from home, be my own boss, oversse everything, turn a good profit, build my savings, have my food delivered to my door, and workout using peloton. Everything is beautiful and I don't complain. I am able to offer support and advice to others in a much more positive manner and inspire people who want to give it a shot.Things which have changed perspective to me include reading job postings and realising how different i was towards them to how i am now, how upset people become when i discuss with them that i am successfully working for myself at home, how i feel knowing i can buy expensive things if i want to but i dont wish to - the feeling alone is often enough, i don't travel as much both in daily life or holidays because i am low stress and comfortable - my life is a holiday everyday. I have to remind myself recently to look ahead to new ideas and not to rest on what i do forever but maybe if im lucky i could.
I'm about to wrap up my 3rd year as a one-person company (https://www.exaresearch.com) specializing in spacecraft flight dynamics and space situtational awareness (SSA). I basically do custom orbit determination things. Super fun. I spent 30+ years in the business before going out on my own. It's going great, primarily because I have a large network in a niche field.
I've been self-employed for nearly three years as a freelancer / consultant.
Though, I have a course I've pre-sold during the recent work drought. These pre-sales have been paying the bills. So there's lots of pressure to deliver on them while still trying to line up freelance/consulting work.
I started doing this because I had big indie hacker dreams. Now I just think that I'm partially unemployable. What matters most to me is controlling my own destiny and Intellectual Property rights. Writing code is what fills me up, and It needs to be protected. Otherwise, I feel trapped, growing bitter and angry over time. So I'll keep doing this until I have more products.
My ultimate goal is to create a portfolio of products to pay the bills. I have no particular biased towards what. They could be courses, ebooks, or even games. 2023 was a special case in terms of cash flow (business cycle goes down), but I'm hopeful for the future, and my course sold decently well, so I think I'm getting the hang of this entrepreneurship thing.
Though, I have a course I've pre-sold during the recent work drought. These pre-sales have been paying the bills. So there's lots of pressure to deliver on them while still trying to line up freelance/consulting work.
I started doing this because I had big indie hacker dreams. Now I just think that I'm partially unemployable. What matters most to me is controlling my own destiny and Intellectual Property rights. Writing code is what fills me up, and It needs to be protected. Otherwise, I feel trapped, growing bitter and angry over time. So I'll keep doing this until I have more products.
My ultimate goal is to create a portfolio of products to pay the bills. I have no particular biased towards what. They could be courses, ebooks, or even games. 2023 was a special case in terms of cash flow (business cycle goes down), but I'm hopeful for the future, and my course sold decently well, so I think I'm getting the hang of this entrepreneurship thing.
Self-employed since December 2019. Back then I wasn't sure how long it would last, but I'm still doing it! I've juggled several consulting clients needed web/mobile app development, sometimes simultaneously, and sometimes with extra developers on the project. A business partner and I also started a B2B SaaS that we're bootstrapping.
Founded, bootstrapped and still completely own CoalitionTechnologies.com. Started it 15 years ago and we do website development, programming, and online marketing. 270+ full time employees and another hundred or so contractors. World class management team has allowed me to step back and buy a cattle and hay farm two weeks ago...
I am working on my second startup. The first startup was bootstrapped hardware company. We released a few electronic devices. I worked on the first product part-time. Just before it was released, I decided to leave my job and work on the company full time.
I worked on the second product full time for about a year. It was profitable, but I never scaled the business up enough to make a living from it. I went back to work full time.
By this point, my appetite for hustling on the weekend to build a business in a market with limited growth potential had diminished. I focused on paying off my mortgage and saving money. After a few years, I had saved enough money to be able to cut back my hours and focus more on my hobbies and passion projects.
I've been working on my current startup Emurse full time since the end of 2020. I am covering costs with the revenue from my first startup and living off savings. We're getting ready to launch the first paid product soon.
I worked on the second product full time for about a year. It was profitable, but I never scaled the business up enough to make a living from it. I went back to work full time.
By this point, my appetite for hustling on the weekend to build a business in a market with limited growth potential had diminished. I focused on paying off my mortgage and saving money. After a few years, I had saved enough money to be able to cut back my hours and focus more on my hobbies and passion projects.
I've been working on my current startup Emurse full time since the end of 2020. I am covering costs with the revenue from my first startup and living off savings. We're getting ready to launch the first paid product soon.
I never understood what self employed means vs a startup. If I start a Delaware C and raise 20M am I self employed?
Self employed means you're a "one man band" and you have no intention of changing it. A startup is when you may start on your own, but you want to grow it, have employees etc.
I decided long time ago the former makes me a lot happier than the later.
I decided long time ago the former makes me a lot happier than the later.
Technically yes, but in practice we would call you a founder on this situation.
In common parlance self-employed is something reserved to people who do free-lancing or have small bootstrapped business:
I have a personal list of criteria that I use to differentiate from the non-freelancing self-employed and the startup founder.
1 - No direct subordination relationship with a customer, you are a service provider, not a contractor.
2 - Focus is on revenues, profit and low debt, not growth above everything.
3 - No founding from venture capital investor. If you have a partner most probably she is also part of the operation, or expect to have a return on their investments from what the company sells, not by the company being sold.
4 - You draw a salary, if any, from the operation. There's no other source of money for you to survive other than your personal economies (see 2 and 3)
1 - No direct subordination relationship with a customer, you are a service provider, not a contractor.
2 - Focus is on revenues, profit and low debt, not growth above everything.
3 - No founding from venture capital investor. If you have a partner most probably she is also part of the operation, or expect to have a return on their investments from what the company sells, not by the company being sold.
4 - You draw a salary, if any, from the operation. There's no other source of money for you to survive other than your personal economies (see 2 and 3)
I'm more interested in the legal distinction
Consulting. I've worked deeply on startups for the past 20 years. Now I'm on my own working with founders who need some help getting through a stuck patch/thinking through problems. It's a great way to stay around startups without doing one yourself.
Not currently self-employed, but I've been a "self-employed" contractor in the past.
In case it was because the "client" wanted a temp, but the contract lasted longer than what, IMO, was appropriate. I was early-career, and the "client" really wanted to treat me as an employee.
In the second case the employer had a limited budget and we agreed on contract-to-hire. 18 months went by and I eventually had to really twist their arm to bring me on full-time. (They were treating me like an employee.)
Anyway, contracting (as a self-employed consultant)'s great if you like that kind of thing and are prepared to incorporate to take advantage of tax laws; but if you want to be an employee, it's annoying.
In case it was because the "client" wanted a temp, but the contract lasted longer than what, IMO, was appropriate. I was early-career, and the "client" really wanted to treat me as an employee.
In the second case the employer had a limited budget and we agreed on contract-to-hire. 18 months went by and I eventually had to really twist their arm to bring me on full-time. (They were treating me like an employee.)
Anyway, contracting (as a self-employed consultant)'s great if you like that kind of thing and are prepared to incorporate to take advantage of tax laws; but if you want to be an employee, it's annoying.
I am self employed for the last 12+ months. I am doing Microsoft Dynamics ERP software development and consulting.
First when I started I was doing subcontracting for larger companies but now I have few customers of my own and it works out fine. I can provide them better and quicker service then larger companies can and for some customers the man and a dog company suites very well and for some companies it doesn't.
I handle everything myself when it comes to business - creating content, being active on Linkedin for inbound leads, doing the bookkeeping, doing the monthly tax reports etc.
First when I started I was doing subcontracting for larger companies but now I have few customers of my own and it works out fine. I can provide them better and quicker service then larger companies can and for some customers the man and a dog company suites very well and for some companies it doesn't.
I handle everything myself when it comes to business - creating content, being active on Linkedin for inbound leads, doing the bookkeeping, doing the monthly tax reports etc.
I've been self employed at Hog Bay Software [1] since 2004. I mostly build Mac apps. A few years I did some consulting. A few other years I worked with some other people, but generally it's been just me the whole time.
> Curious to know what sustains people.
It allows me to work on what I am interested in, for me that's the key. For whatever reason I've decided that text productivity apps are really interesting, and worth my time to build. So that's what I do. It hasn't lead to great riches, but I wake up pretty much every day excited to work on what's next. Pretty fun!
[1] https://www.hogbaysoftware.com
> Curious to know what sustains people.
It allows me to work on what I am interested in, for me that's the key. For whatever reason I've decided that text productivity apps are really interesting, and worth my time to build. So that's what I do. It hasn't lead to great riches, but I wake up pretty much every day excited to work on what's next. Pretty fun!
[1] https://www.hogbaysoftware.com
I've been self-employed since 2006. Started my last company in 2008. Bootstrapped and grew that over 12 years and sold it to private equity. Private equity mismanaged the rollup they assembled and lost 95% of the value in the companies.
Now I find myself middling between looking for steady/normal work and trying to stand up my new project, https://getspence.ai (landing page gets a revamp this week). I never expected trying to find steady/normal work as an exited entrepreneur to be so difficult. There are so many square holes and I often feel like a round peg.
Now I find myself middling between looking for steady/normal work and trying to stand up my new project, https://getspence.ai (landing page gets a revamp this week). I never expected trying to find steady/normal work as an exited entrepreneur to be so difficult. There are so many square holes and I often feel like a round peg.
Not anymore but I was for around 2 and a half years up until this time last year... Well kind of - I worked as a consultant and registered an ltd. Mostly for tax reasons - the corporate tax where I live is very low and I kind of enjoyed sending out an invoice at the end of each month and move on. The company is still legally active since it costs ~10 bucks a month so if I decide to pick up something on the side or get some of my personal projects to an actual product, I can get them out in no time. Or if I decide to go back into the consulting side of things, which has certain pros(but also cons).
Most of my 30+yrs in on-site biz support are SE. I do most everything that small-med biz need done. Mostly Microsoft but some *nix/BSD.
I build firewalls, deploy workstations, troubleshoot crapware like Quickbooks, setup/maintain domains, admin MS exchange/azure, build/run mail servers, virtualize things, fix hardware inc med & pharma equip (with son #3).
Lots of other things except web - which is done by my long-time friend/biz partner.
I've been employed on and off (mostly by clients) and prefer that but circumstances always intervened.
Pros: Flexible sched is plus to deal with family demands and endless crisis. Cons: Uninsured.
I build firewalls, deploy workstations, troubleshoot crapware like Quickbooks, setup/maintain domains, admin MS exchange/azure, build/run mail servers, virtualize things, fix hardware inc med & pharma equip (with son #3).
Lots of other things except web - which is done by my long-time friend/biz partner.
I've been employed on and off (mostly by clients) and prefer that but circumstances always intervened.
Pros: Flexible sched is plus to deal with family demands and endless crisis. Cons: Uninsured.
Backstory to the above, if you want it:
In 1990 near DC, I did lawn care & hauling. I ingratiated myself with a guy who did GSA auctions and had a PC shop. I did auctions and learned to fix hardware for 2 years. His shop closed and DC is super expensive. I moved my kid and pregnant wife to FL (inexpensive back then) in 92. Worked as an mechanic at a car lot and at a small local IT shop.
In 93 I got a programming scholarship to college. In my last year the org funding me was shuttered as part of the Contract with America. I graduated but without connections, getting hired here was difficult. Two years of resumes yielded one distant job offer.
During that time I did residential IT, which is about as fun as it sounds. I also handed out cards to every local biz and chatted up anyone who'd stand for it. Three years of that led to my first real client, an org for developmentally disabled adults (ARC) down south. I supported ARCs for years until I picked up a nearby automotive group.
I got sent back to zero a lot. The 08 meltdown hit car dealerships. I pivoted to local medical but market changes from the ACA ended that. Next was wife's MI (5 kids by then) and that chaos left me with 2 small clients until she left in 19.
During the entire 30 years, I had a friend and on/off biz partner. I gave him my ARC and pharma clients in 04 to focus on auto. In 19 he moved out of state and returned the pharma along with a web retailer. I picked up another med practice and am really busy sometimes.
Combined with income from 3 sons, we're making just enough to cover FLs (now) expensive bills.
In 1990 near DC, I did lawn care & hauling. I ingratiated myself with a guy who did GSA auctions and had a PC shop. I did auctions and learned to fix hardware for 2 years. His shop closed and DC is super expensive. I moved my kid and pregnant wife to FL (inexpensive back then) in 92. Worked as an mechanic at a car lot and at a small local IT shop.
In 93 I got a programming scholarship to college. In my last year the org funding me was shuttered as part of the Contract with America. I graduated but without connections, getting hired here was difficult. Two years of resumes yielded one distant job offer.
During that time I did residential IT, which is about as fun as it sounds. I also handed out cards to every local biz and chatted up anyone who'd stand for it. Three years of that led to my first real client, an org for developmentally disabled adults (ARC) down south. I supported ARCs for years until I picked up a nearby automotive group.
I got sent back to zero a lot. The 08 meltdown hit car dealerships. I pivoted to local medical but market changes from the ACA ended that. Next was wife's MI (5 kids by then) and that chaos left me with 2 small clients until she left in 19.
During the entire 30 years, I had a friend and on/off biz partner. I gave him my ARC and pharma clients in 04 to focus on auto. In 19 he moved out of state and returned the pharma along with a web retailer. I picked up another med practice and am really busy sometimes.
Combined with income from 3 sons, we're making just enough to cover FLs (now) expensive bills.
I built https://team-today.com with a friend about 4 years ago and have been working on it full-time for the past 6 months.
I tried to get funding but never really got there and we've just managed to grind it out to a point where we have enough revenue to pay ourselves.
The flexible lifestyle is great, I play golf on Wednesdays and help out with childcare much more than I would have been able to with my previous jobs.
There is the looming threat that all our customers will leave us one day and I'll have to go back to a regular 9-5 job, but hey ho.
I tried to get funding but never really got there and we've just managed to grind it out to a point where we have enough revenue to pay ourselves.
The flexible lifestyle is great, I play golf on Wednesdays and help out with childcare much more than I would have been able to with my previous jobs.
There is the looming threat that all our customers will leave us one day and I'll have to go back to a regular 9-5 job, but hey ho.
I am unemployed; I'll teach undergrad and grad math for change (っ˘̩╭╮˘̩)っ
I’m an independent space exploration writer, and I love my job: https://blog.jatan.space/about
Happy to answer any related questions.
Happy to answer any related questions.
Yup, self-employed embedded firmware and hardware engineer. I mostly consult on things like wearable sensors (especially class 2 and class 3 medical devices) and industrial control systems. I also have a bit of an odd niche in phosphorescence-measurement instruments for research and practical applications. The closer to the metal, the better! The tighter the power requirements, the better! The more connected, the better!
Been doing it independently for almost 14 years now. Was based in Minnesota, but now I'm in Colorado. Wouldn't have it any other way.
Been doing it independently for almost 14 years now. Was based in Minnesota, but now I'm in Colorado. Wouldn't have it any other way.
Is compensation competitive compared to working for Intel or something? Do you make 150 hourly?
In terms of total compensation, I probably pay myself about what I would make at one of the big tech companies. (Side note: before changing to consulting, I did spend several years working as an engineer in a "real" job at a large medical device company.) The real appeal to me is twofold: first, I have strong control over my time; and second, I get to see and work on a very wide range of interesting projects and challenges. You can certainly get all of this in a traditional job as well, but my personal opinion is that it's easier to find it as a consultant.
I left Google about 8 months ago to build a Shopify app. I was a sales engineer that kept selling a super complex product to large retailers, and I thought it would be cool to "productize a service" and democratize it for smaller retailers.
It's amazing taking a full product from 0 to 1 with a small team, we're bootstrapped but have some revenue coming in now from very satisfied customers. I don't know if we'll ever raise money or have an exit, but I wouldn't trade the experience for the world.
It's amazing taking a full product from 0 to 1 with a small team, we're bootstrapped but have some revenue coming in now from very satisfied customers. I don't know if we'll ever raise money or have an exit, but I wouldn't trade the experience for the world.
This question could work well as a poll, which is an infrequently used HN feature: https://news.ycombinator.com/newpoll
It's infrequently used because poll votes don't count as upvotes for the poll, which they really should. And is probably my longest standing RFI for HN.
Self employed here. Mostly React / React Native specialist. I've been working in React since it was relatively new but try to stay up on latest updates in the ecosystem.
Backstory: Not entirely planned, but I was talking with a company about potentially being a frontend architect or something along that line. As the conversations progressed, they said they couldn't hire me fulltime since I wasn't able to come in to the office daily but they could give me a long-term contract. I've been consulting ever since.
Backstory: Not entirely planned, but I was talking with a company about potentially being a frontend architect or something along that line. As the conversations progressed, they said they couldn't hire me fulltime since I wasn't able to come in to the office daily but they could give me a long-term contract. I've been consulting ever since.
I've been "self-employed" for the around 3-4 years now, mostly building UXWizz[0]. It's not really sustainable at the moment, due to the lack of marketing. I still get sales somehow by focusing mostly on the product development, but this year I will try to market it more. I don't plan to grow it into a huge business, just enough to be comfortably sustainable ($10k/mo from the current ~$2k/mo).
[0]: https://www.uxwizz.com
[0]: https://www.uxwizz.com
I'm "half-half" so to speak.
I work as a CTO in my day job (as an employee).
Also I'm self-employed (via a company structure) to build https://persumi.com - a blogging platform, and https://rizz.farm - a lead gen platform, as well as to work on client work.
https://persumi.com/u/fredwu/hire-fred :)
I work as a CTO in my day job (as an employee).
Also I'm self-employed (via a company structure) to build https://persumi.com - a blogging platform, and https://rizz.farm - a lead gen platform, as well as to work on client work.
https://persumi.com/u/fredwu/hire-fred :)
Since 2005, with a brief interlude at a company between 2008-2012. Have been a solo freelancer, an employer, in both tech and now real estate. Thinking through some options for the future, but I foresee opening multiple businesses in the next few decades, ideally so there will be assets for my kids to manage someday.
What sustains me? I like to eat and have a roof over my head. Could I have made more money going a different route? Almost certainly. But, life is about tradeoffs.
What sustains me? I like to eat and have a roof over my head. Could I have made more money going a different route? Almost certainly. But, life is about tradeoffs.
Been a year and a half since I started https://snowpixel.app/
Pays the bills and gives me enough free time.
Pays the bills and gives me enough free time.
Self-employed since 2009 (can't believe it's been that long). Started out doing dev-for-hire work with a friend: web sites and mobile apps mostly. Along the way we built up a "war chest" to self-fund something of our own, then grew it up and sold it off. Rinse, repeat. Currently we have a small company (10 people) in the VR sector.
Self-employment is definitely not for everyone, but I love the freedom and flexibility. It'd kill me to go back.
Self-employment is definitely not for everyone, but I love the freedom and flexibility. It'd kill me to go back.
S-Corp, W-2 for myself. I do pretty mundane programming related stuff for safety critical systems (med device and am always looking for interesting stuff). Been remote consulting averaging 1-2 clients since mid 2017. Here's my profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sriramsundar/. Worked full time for about 15 years prior.
About 6 months ago I left my job to start my own company and make a language learning tool I always wanted to build (https://www.langturbo.com), It's something I use myself and I see real value in it.
I'm fully bootstrapped and I have some months left of savings to try this out. If this doesn't get traction then I guess I'll have to get a "real" job again :).
I'm fully bootstrapped and I have some months left of savings to try this out. If this doesn't get traction then I guess I'll have to get a "real" job again :).
This is nice! Going to try it out for a while. Could potentially expand to TV shows on YouTube, there are tons of free ones for my target language (Chinese). Also, this might be challenging, but would be nice to see Chinese divided into Cantonese/Mandarin and simplified/traditional characters, although it's not a big deal for intermediate learners to just choose podcasts that use their target language themselves.
Very cool idea. Probably also needs an app to really gain traction (maybe just start with a webview and not a full native app?). I think lots of people are listening to podcasts on smartphones.
Agreed, I am also working on a react native app for iOS and Android. I decided to release it on the web first to avoid the extra cut Apple and Google will take and to iterate faster on a single platform, but as you mention, most people expect to have a native app for these B2C apps.
I like the design of the site, well done!
Thanks, I'm not a designer by trade. It was inspired by a design trend I like: "neo brutalism"
It says you have Arabic but doesn't break it out by dialects.
I've been bootstrapping orbitalhq.com for a few years now.
Pretty standard bootstrap story - used consultancy to get us out the door. These days, we're (nearly) self sustained through license revenue, with a small amount of consulting (1-2 projects a year).
It's been a tough ride, and in hindsight, I wish I hadn't pivoted away from consulting quite as early as I had, however we've managed to stay alive, so - so far - independent, which has been nice.
Pretty standard bootstrap story - used consultancy to get us out the door. These days, we're (nearly) self sustained through license revenue, with a small amount of consulting (1-2 projects a year).
It's been a tough ride, and in hindsight, I wish I hadn't pivoted away from consulting quite as early as I had, however we've managed to stay alive, so - so far - independent, which has been nice.
Which consultancy if you don't mind me asking?
We run our own consulting practice - Notional (https://notional.uk) -- terrible, unmaintaned website, as all the love goes to orbital these days.
For the last 4 years, I've been working on app that help solo founder like me to manage their project but intuitive to use on mobile. Finally get the app ready for private beta soon, so lately my time have been focused getting the word out about the app.
App Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSiHWdoekCE
App Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSiHWdoekCE
I went from full time employment to freelancing in 2010 or so. I wouldn't do that again. Freelancing is the worst parts of a full time job and the worst parts of entrepreneurship combined in retrospect.
I then founded a software services company where I currently work and grew it. It's been a very rewarding journey so far.
I'm not sure if either of these qualifies as "self employed" but that's that. :)
I then founded a software services company where I currently work and grew it. It's been a very rewarding journey so far.
I'm not sure if either of these qualifies as "self employed" but that's that. :)
> ... I then founded a software services company where I currently work and grew it.
Does it mean it's around your software product, or it's some sort of agency?
Does it mean it's around your software product, or it's some sort of agency?
An agency. We have a product in the market and a few internal experiments we're working on but the bulk of the revenue is from software services.
After working at various start-ups and Fortune 200 companies as a Product Manager, I am now working at my families niche consulting company.
The twist is my wife is also helping run her family business and while the two companies bring in similar revenue every year, that's about all they have in common.
It's been pretty eye opening seeing how my father and my FIL operate their respective businesses.
The twist is my wife is also helping run her family business and while the two companies bring in similar revenue every year, that's about all they have in common.
It's been pretty eye opening seeing how my father and my FIL operate their respective businesses.
I’m curious to know. Eye opening in what respects?
Mostly in their management philosophy.
My dad typically believes in working smarter not harder and my FIL will do basically anything he can to save a dollar including doing most things himself.
What muddies the water a bit is their respective behavior might be a function of the businesses they run.
Our business is a software consulting practice with healthy margins and my FIL has a physical location with high fixed costs (owns a Tennis club).
My dad typically believes in working smarter not harder and my FIL will do basically anything he can to save a dollar including doing most things himself.
What muddies the water a bit is their respective behavior might be a function of the businesses they run.
Our business is a software consulting practice with healthy margins and my FIL has a physical location with high fixed costs (owns a Tennis club).
I am currently working on helping small companies solve technical problems, build a strong technical culture, and scale their engineering orgs. Both hands on code and leadership, as needed.
For a summary, https://orib.dev/consulting.html
I'm just starting out with this, but it's looking promising.
For a summary, https://orib.dev/consulting.html
I'm just starting out with this, but it's looking promising.
I've been a freelance web dev/consultant for the past 10 years. Like some other people mentioned, been wanting to have my own product so I started developing a Azure B2C app to help organizations manage users. It's very very niche but solves a problem that I've run into multiple times.
My goal is to continue consulting while releasing my side project.
My goal is to continue consulting while releasing my side project.
Self employed on and off for 20 years. I am an industry analyst, former Gartner. If you have questions about that I wrote a book about it. :-) https://www.amazon.com/Curmudgeon-How-Succeed-Industry-Analy...
I'm a full time Twitch streamer since 2020
Can you share roughly your followers/subs/avg viewers, and revenue?
Self-employed since 2020. I'm basically a software consultant doing hands on software development in the .Net world.
Yeah 10 years contracting now taking time off to build my own products. Currently focussing on developing my innovation pipeline to systematically evaluate products/opportunities to decide when to continue or abandon them.
Next job is idea generation, prioritisation and mockups of ones that pass the initial filter. Then the real work starts.
Next job is idea generation, prioritisation and mockups of ones that pass the initial filter. Then the real work starts.
Self-employed since 2005. It's been a slow road and I haven't wanted to lead a big team so it's been a mix of consulting and small projects. One of them is gaining a tiny bit of traction so I'm hopeful I can scale it up. I'd much rather build a software business than lead a consulting business.
I'm technically self employed because I got into a toxic contractorship as my first gig, when I didn't have the knowledge to avoid getting taken advantage of. But it's really just a software shop refusing to hire employees and using "contractors" for everything (we're actually employees)
I'm freelancing two days a week, which generates most of my income.
For the rest of the week, I'm bootstrapping a language learning app.(https://vokabeln.io/)
I'm lucky enough not having to pay rent and also living expenses in Czechia are not that high.
For the rest of the week, I'm bootstrapping a language learning app.(https://vokabeln.io/)
I'm lucky enough not having to pay rent and also living expenses in Czechia are not that high.
I guess I'm partially self-employed, in that I'm reactivating an old/defunct business providing content management & consulting. Still very early on, as I'm figuring out good niches in our AI-enabled world.
I do love seeing threads like this though. All the fun tools & projects people build up.
I do love seeing threads like this though. All the fun tools & projects people build up.
Successfully self employed since 2018. Built my own product that I sell as B2B to large businesses in Kubernetes/OpenShift space. Making a good salary of principal software engineer.
As a hobby working on side projects (apps for apple ecosystem) and my main hobby - skydiving (it is expensive).
As a hobby working on side projects (apps for apple ecosystem) and my main hobby - skydiving (it is expensive).
>How many of you are self employed?
+1. Self-employed since 2006. Previously at Sophos.
>What do you do?
I'm a technical generalist, and it's slowly killing me. I need to specialise in…something.
>Curious to know what sustains people.
Fear of eviction & a broken anhedonic treadmill. Coming up to 20 years of that, there's a lot of damage to fix, frankly.
+1. Self-employed since 2006. Previously at Sophos.
>What do you do?
I'm a technical generalist, and it's slowly killing me. I need to specialise in…something.
>Curious to know what sustains people.
Fear of eviction & a broken anhedonic treadmill. Coming up to 20 years of that, there's a lot of damage to fix, frankly.
I feel the same way regarding being a generalist. I’ve been a software generalist with a focus on web dev for my entire career but as I progress in my career I see the benefit of specializing. I can definitely see the benefit of specializing as a self-employed/freelance software engineer.
Been self employed for over 20 years already. Have my own software and hardware products that generate revenue. Over a time revenue has declined and complement by designing and implementing custom software products for clients.
I am registered as corporation so I am my own employee and pay myself a salary
I am registered as corporation so I am my own employee and pay myself a salary
I’ve been self employed since 2004. Never really had a “real” job even before that. Started a web site in 1997 and sold it a year later for 7 figures, worked as a “cofounder” at the company that acquired, then started more sites on the side until revenue exceeded my salary and quit.
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I'm formally self-employed but it's actually a means of keeping talent from emigrating by granting tax benefits to people like me.
I do side gigs when the opportunity arises, but more often than not I don't have the time for anything but my main thing.
I do side gigs when the opportunity arises, but more often than not I don't have the time for anything but my main thing.
I started working for myself in '86, have been at it ever since with temporary excursion whenever a project got larger and I ended up hiring people or having partners. Wouldn't have it any other way in spite of the obvious risks and drawbacks.
Two years running indie tech conferences [0]. I’m still a programmer: I wrote a replacement for Ticketmaster/Eventbrite and never looked back.
[0] https://handmadecities.com
[0] https://handmadecities.com
I have been self employed for 10 years now. I manage Google Ads for small and medium businesses.
I still have the desire to create a great start up, but at least this way I can pay the bills and have more free time to work on start up ideas.
I still have the desire to create a great start up, but at least this way I can pay the bills and have more free time to work on start up ideas.
IT service, sales and support business, and private cash-flowing multi-family real estate business (we provide nice places for people to live without the headache of owning/maintaining/repairing your own home).
I was for 2 or 3 years over 10 years ago. I built apps (mostly web based) for smaller businesses and startups.
I'll likely be going back to it after being laid off last June and not being able to find the same level of pay.
I'll likely be going back to it after being laid off last June and not being able to find the same level of pay.
I'm self employed with https://stockevents.app as well as employed as the Head of Product Management for a construction software company.
I'm working on my own projects. Right now, most of my effort goes to AI Construx (https://aiconstrux.com), build things with AI.
I technically am self employed as I have my own LLC, but I generally work as a full time engineer for companies. It just helps for tax reasons but also flexibility in my work, ie choose my own hours and pay rate.
I've been self employed for 3 years now. I help companies get started with machine learning. ChatGPT is the best marketing for me: everyone and their dog wants ML because of ChatGPT.
I do advisory work and development too.
I do advisory work and development too.
How do you find clients?
Rather, how did you find your first clients?
I am part of Independent Data Lab [1], a collective of bioinformatics consultants based in Europe.
[1] https://www.independentdatalab.com
[1] https://www.independentdatalab.com
Me. CTO Coach. ~4years now.
What kind of experience do you have to be able to credibly provide this service? Must be a lot!
I don't know. Usually clients talk to me to see if we click, ask questions and decide if I can help or not.
On one hand I have been doing software development for a long time, 40+ years of coding (currently Go), 25+ years as a manager (CTO, DoE, HoD,...) in large enterprises and startups. Founded three startups, one fizzled out, one went belly up in 2001 and one sold successfully.
But I learn something new every day.
On the other hand I have no training in coaching - but have been doing it for some years now. You decide.
On one hand I have been doing software development for a long time, 40+ years of coding (currently Go), 25+ years as a manager (CTO, DoE, HoD,...) in large enterprises and startups. Founded three startups, one fizzled out, one went belly up in 2001 and one sold successfully.
But I learn something new every day.
On the other hand I have no training in coaching - but have been doing it for some years now. You decide.
I generally call bullshit on coaches, but with that sort of experience you may be one of the few who can actually advise.
I always find it extremely difficult to believe a 20 or 30-something can provide meaningful coaching advice, most of it is going to end up being a combination of theory (what they think) and things they've read (their interpretation of others experience).
- a crotchety 45+ year old
I always find it extremely difficult to believe a 20 or 30-something can provide meaningful coaching advice, most of it is going to end up being a combination of theory (what they think) and things they've read (their interpretation of others experience).
- a crotchety 45+ year old
- a white-hair-white-beard 51+ year old
[deleted]
I do.
I run a small hardware product design firm and injection molding supplier right here in San Francisco.
Www.iancollmceachern.com Www.goldengatemolders.com
I run a small hardware product design firm and injection molding supplier right here in San Francisco.
Www.iancollmceachern.com Www.goldengatemolders.com
Self-employed for 24 years now. Mostly doing test management and project management, but also some coding on and off.
If I could build things on my own I wouldn't be working for someone else.
Consulting (mostly DT/business process) since end of 2014.
I've been self employed (doing the "solopreneur" thing) for ~8 years now. I wrote a blog post about the early days[0]. TLDR I have been bouncing between eCommerce (Shopify Apps) and software in the music space. Both of those avenues have roadblocks and challenges when it comes to building a future proof solo career: Shopify is a narrow market and changes fast while the music industry is all over the place. So now I'm focused on Zigpoll[1] which will hopefully have some legs take me from solopreneurship to early retirement :)
[0]https://www.zigpoll.com/blog/being-a-solopreneur-part-one
[1]https://www.zigpoll.com
[0]https://www.zigpoll.com/blog/being-a-solopreneur-part-one
[1]https://www.zigpoll.com
I'm self unemployed, lol.
Seconded. Was doing it for a year and it feels great, most of the times. I slept in a wrong position tonight and now my back hurts. I’ll either wait the crisis out or… idk tbh, thought of working for animal shelter. The world doesn’t motivate me to do anything atm.
Thirded. Nice to see fellow self-unemployed folks here, makes me feel a lot less lonely and useless.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39261936
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39261975
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39260479
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39261936
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39261975
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39260479
Ah, to be free.
[deleted]
I was self-employed from 2020-2022, mainly for tax reasons. There are lots of things 1099 employees can deduct from taxes (home office rent, lunches, any work-related electronics and furniture you buy that the company doesn't reimburse, etc.)
Just make sure that when you negotiate the rate you bump it up enough to account for self-employment tax, health insurance, and vacation time. The company would have to pay for these anyway for W-2s (self employment tax becomes payroll tax) so they shouldn't be opposed to the slightly higher rate to account for these things.
It's idiotic that W-2 cannot deduct these but it's reality.
As a bonus if you ever work overtime you actually get paid for your additional work. Another thing W-2s should get but don't.
Just make sure that when you negotiate the rate you bump it up enough to account for self-employment tax, health insurance, and vacation time. The company would have to pay for these anyway for W-2s (self employment tax becomes payroll tax) so they shouldn't be opposed to the slightly higher rate to account for these things.
It's idiotic that W-2 cannot deduct these but it's reality.
As a bonus if you ever work overtime you actually get paid for your additional work. Another thing W-2s should get but don't.
Self-employed freelance developer since 2010.
this is the post I needed today. ty!
Not any more! Yippee!
self-employed here (company owner)
I mean, it depends on your definition of "employed". :) I am only getting a few hours per week right now, but I am an independent contractor.