Simple Bank Is Closing(oregonlive.com)
oregonlive.com
Simple Bank Is Closing
https://www.oregonlive.com/silicon-forest/2021/01/simple-portland-online-banker-is-shutting-down.html
615 comments
What additional benifit does moving money around provide?
From my perspective, there is not much difference between money moving around in the banking system vs moving around on your budget sheet, except the banking system might charge overdraft fees if the accounts are mismanaged.
Based on that reasoning I've taken the approach to only have as many bank accounts as I need to utilize their services, and to interact with them as little as nessecary.
From my perspective, there is not much difference between money moving around in the banking system vs moving around on your budget sheet, except the banking system might charge overdraft fees if the accounts are mismanaged.
Based on that reasoning I've taken the approach to only have as many bank accounts as I need to utilize their services, and to interact with them as little as nessecary.
I've always felt the same, but a few situations have required separate accounts:
- education savings accounts for children. There's some tax advantage to keeping them separate.
- a checking account for a personal assistant to pay bills from, limited to a few months cash
- when living together with separate finances, a household account that you both contribute to with a debit card. Convenient for splitting groceries, home improvement, etc. Otherwise, you have to keep receipts and settle regularly.
- if you're paying tax to 2 countries with a tax treaty, you may have to prove that you've already been taxed on money you're bringing in. It's best if you can do that from an account with only a single source of income, or else it gets complicated.
- education savings accounts for children. There's some tax advantage to keeping them separate.
- a checking account for a personal assistant to pay bills from, limited to a few months cash
- when living together with separate finances, a household account that you both contribute to with a debit card. Convenient for splitting groceries, home improvement, etc. Otherwise, you have to keep receipts and settle regularly.
- if you're paying tax to 2 countries with a tax treaty, you may have to prove that you've already been taxed on money you're bringing in. It's best if you can do that from an account with only a single source of income, or else it gets complicated.
fwiw, I strongly recommend trying out a double-entry ledger tool for keeping track of your finances, if they are indeed this complicated.
Don't do everything at once: start with something simple like your education savings account, and expand from there (the account that you pay into the ESA with, the other accounts that account pays into, etc).
For me, it's a little bit of work each month (~30 minutes, but I've automated a lot of the work), but it buys peace of mind and a very efficient tax season.
Don't do everything at once: start with something simple like your education savings account, and expand from there (the account that you pay into the ESA with, the other accounts that account pays into, etc).
For me, it's a little bit of work each month (~30 minutes, but I've automated a lot of the work), but it buys peace of mind and a very efficient tax season.
Counter-question: Does your operating system have all its files directly placed in "/"? Why not?
Human nature of thinking needs a context, therefore it makes sense to provide folders or categories to get an architectural structure into a huge amount of data that needs to be processed.
Additionally, if you need to manage a business account; having multiple accounts to balance the differences and to trace money expenses is common practice. The IRS or German Finanzamt (for example) won't even accept a simple budget sheet that lists all expenses.
Human nature of thinking needs a context, therefore it makes sense to provide folders or categories to get an architectural structure into a huge amount of data that needs to be processed.
Additionally, if you need to manage a business account; having multiple accounts to balance the differences and to trace money expenses is common practice. The IRS or German Finanzamt (for example) won't even accept a simple budget sheet that lists all expenses.
>Counter-question: Does your operating system have all its files directly placed in "/"? Why not?
Because my files are not fungible.
I understand keeping business transactions separate from personal transactions. But creating lots of little pots of money for different personal expenditures makes no sense to me at all.
Because my files are not fungible.
I understand keeping business transactions separate from personal transactions. But creating lots of little pots of money for different personal expenditures makes no sense to me at all.
They are tools for accounting: both as in actually making a count of the matter, and as in actually holding yourself “accountable” for meeting them.
It’s easier for some people to not waste money by setting up boundaries. You need detailed enough boundaries that it’s not all a fungible blob. Tada, envelope budgeting.
It’s easier for some people to not waste money by setting up boundaries. You need detailed enough boundaries that it’s not all a fungible blob. Tada, envelope budgeting.
It makes sense to me. I channel 100 per month for the winter heating bill, no need to think about that, it's automatically there. I channel 500 per month for petty cash, don't dive into the rest, it's automatically there. I channel 200 per month for annual insurances, no need to think about that, it's automatically there. Etc.
It's a personal direct-debit, like using rules on one's email.
It's a personal direct-debit, like using rules on one's email.
I know a lot of people like to do it that way, otherwise these features wouldn't support an entire new category of fintech startups. For me, this is a mental burden and too much busy work.
What's more useful to me is forecasting. If the app knows how much money I'm going to need (e.g for rent, bills, groceries, insurance, etc) and it knows how much I will probably receive by then, it can show me whether I'm on the right trajectory and how much headroom I have for discretionary spending. My Monzo app does that (somewhat imperfectly).
But if I decide to buy a new computer, I don't want to manually "borrow" money from three different pots and later replenish them manually. I just want to spend the money and have the app tell me the total amount I have to raise in order to stay solvent.
What's more useful to me is forecasting. If the app knows how much money I'm going to need (e.g for rent, bills, groceries, insurance, etc) and it knows how much I will probably receive by then, it can show me whether I'm on the right trajectory and how much headroom I have for discretionary spending. My Monzo app does that (somewhat imperfectly).
But if I decide to buy a new computer, I don't want to manually "borrow" money from three different pots and later replenish them manually. I just want to spend the money and have the app tell me the total amount I have to raise in order to stay solvent.
In the computer example, someone using the envelope system would decide not to buy the computer if the balance in the appropriate account was short. It’s just a different approach to timing and limiting purchases.
It still sounds a bit weird to me. If I need something, I will buy it unless I don't have cash for it. The concept of buying stuff just because I still have some spare cash in some bucket but I stop once bucket is empty feels so strange to me, some sort of forced self-check on compulsive buyers. If that's the case, I would rather look for solution in the root cause of such behavior rather than symptoms.
Maybe the motivation for some ordinary folks (that don't really need structured accounting, then it might be great) is different than mine. Or if I would be on a really tight budget combined with having to juggle tons of various mandatory expenses (household, kids, whatnot).
Maybe the motivation for some ordinary folks (that don't really need structured accounting, then it might be great) is different than mine. Or if I would be on a really tight budget combined with having to juggle tons of various mandatory expenses (household, kids, whatnot).
You don't have to buy something once the bucket is full. The idea is just to have the money allocated so it's ready when you need it.
For some things those will be fixed monthly expenses (rent, insurance, mortgage. Others will be variable, like grocery shopping, maybe clothing. And others will be bigger purchases like a computer.
It's just another framework or set of tools for budgeting your money out into the future. YNAB (You Need a Budget) has some decent articles on their blog about the concept. Dave Ramsey might be helpful too if you really want to understand the motivation behind this kind of system.
For some things those will be fixed monthly expenses (rent, insurance, mortgage. Others will be variable, like grocery shopping, maybe clothing. And others will be bigger purchases like a computer.
It's just another framework or set of tools for budgeting your money out into the future. YNAB (You Need a Budget) has some decent articles on their blog about the concept. Dave Ramsey might be helpful too if you really want to understand the motivation behind this kind of system.
> It still sounds a bit weird to me. If I need something, I will buy it unless I don't have cash for it.
Yes, and envelopes make it easier for many people to figure out if they have the cash for it. They let you "spend" the money the instant you get it, in a virtual way, even if you don't really need to spend it until later. This way you know that when it comes time to pay rent/mortgage, property tax, etc., you're good.
I think you are right though: I think the envelope idea is primarily targeted at people on a tight budget, where you really are trading off pros and cons of spending relatively small sums of money, and where the usual question is what gets sacrificed if this or that is purchased.
You suggest that in such a situation you'd look at the root cause of such behavior (e.g. compulsive spending). Often, the "root cause" is simply unawareness of spending patterns, and envelope spending is a useful technique for a lot of people. It isn't a crutch to cover up some sort of underlying personality flaw that has a deeper "root cause" -- It is just a way of tracking earmarked spending.
Yes, and envelopes make it easier for many people to figure out if they have the cash for it. They let you "spend" the money the instant you get it, in a virtual way, even if you don't really need to spend it until later. This way you know that when it comes time to pay rent/mortgage, property tax, etc., you're good.
I think you are right though: I think the envelope idea is primarily targeted at people on a tight budget, where you really are trading off pros and cons of spending relatively small sums of money, and where the usual question is what gets sacrificed if this or that is purchased.
You suggest that in such a situation you'd look at the root cause of such behavior (e.g. compulsive spending). Often, the "root cause" is simply unawareness of spending patterns, and envelope spending is a useful technique for a lot of people. It isn't a crutch to cover up some sort of underlying personality flaw that has a deeper "root cause" -- It is just a way of tracking earmarked spending.
Yes, exactly—-you don’t have the spending problem that some people have, or don’t have the desire to save money to the same extent that some have.
Root cause analysis is of course best if successful and can be completed quickly enough.
Root cause analysis is of course best if successful and can be completed quickly enough.
what if its just a want? i can upgrade the gpu now or next month. I'd already bought a birthday gift this month.
I did my own budgeting in a spreadsheet for awhile, and those big lump purchases were definitely something that's hard to model.
I think it's pretty easy to create a budgeting product for the 90% case but those odd lumpy purchases and split payments are something everyone wants to deal with differently.
For example, my girlfriend and roommates often split purchases by one person buying, and the other person adding an entry on Splitwise.
That Splitwise entry isn't a bank transaction until maybe weeks later when I get a Venmo payment from a roommate covering several Splitwise requests, and for my budget I want to match up the $100 charge at the grocery store with the $50 Splitwise request with the $250 Venmo payment that was only partially for the $50 owed on groceries... not an easy problem to solve in a general way that makes lots of users happy.
I think it's pretty easy to create a budgeting product for the 90% case but those odd lumpy purchases and split payments are something everyone wants to deal with differently.
For example, my girlfriend and roommates often split purchases by one person buying, and the other person adding an entry on Splitwise.
That Splitwise entry isn't a bank transaction until maybe weeks later when I get a Venmo payment from a roommate covering several Splitwise requests, and for my budget I want to match up the $100 charge at the grocery store with the $50 Splitwise request with the $250 Venmo payment that was only partially for the $50 owed on groceries... not an easy problem to solve in a general way that makes lots of users happy.
> That Splitwise entry isn't a bank transaction until maybe weeks later when I get a Venmo payment from a roommate covering several Splitwise requests, and for my budget I want to match up the $100 charge at the grocery store with the $50 Splitwise request with the $250 Venmo payment that was only partially for the $50 owed on groceries... not an easy problem to solve in a general way that makes lots of users happy.
When you spend $100 at the grocery store you make an entry with $100 subtracted from assets:bank, $50 added to expenses:groceries, and $50 added to assets:receivables.
Once your friend pays you $250 for your outlay, you add them to assets:bank and subtract them from assets:receivables.
It’s a little tedious in a spreadsheet, because each transaction results in at least two new rows, so it can feel redundant, but this is basically double entry accounting that can handle this and many other situations.
When you spend $100 at the grocery store you make an entry with $100 subtracted from assets:bank, $50 added to expenses:groceries, and $50 added to assets:receivables.
Once your friend pays you $250 for your outlay, you add them to assets:bank and subtract them from assets:receivables.
It’s a little tedious in a spreadsheet, because each transaction results in at least two new rows, so it can feel redundant, but this is basically double entry accounting that can handle this and many other situations.
Yeah I mean I understand the money flows, but it's so tedious to keep my credit card transactions, splitwise, and venmo open while I'm entering things in the spreadsheet.
A budgeting UI that managed this would be amazing, but I understand other people may not keep track of their money flows this way so it doesn't necessarily surprise me that it's not already built.
A budgeting UI that managed this would be amazing, but I understand other people may not keep track of their money flows this way so it doesn't necessarily surprise me that it's not already built.
A bit tangential: This is one of the good things coming from PSD2 and Open Banking - increased options and choice.
That's a good point. We used to partition our disks and assign space budgets to specific partition/mounted directories.
It was to me a PITA, and juggling with partitions, redimensionning them because circumstances changed, moving files from one partition to another because it was getting saturated etc. were horrible.
Instead of having a tool handling that horror, thinking of disk space as a continuous resource and checking from time to time where that space go and if it needs cleaning is more manageable IMO.
I have the same mental model for money, and outside of very specific cases (mortgage accounts, kids account, professional expenses etc.) I don't think it's worth it partitioning at the account levels just for the sake of it.
It was to me a PITA, and juggling with partitions, redimensionning them because circumstances changed, moving files from one partition to another because it was getting saturated etc. were horrible.
Instead of having a tool handling that horror, thinking of disk space as a continuous resource and checking from time to time where that space go and if it needs cleaning is more manageable IMO.
I have the same mental model for money, and outside of very specific cases (mortgage accounts, kids account, professional expenses etc.) I don't think it's worth it partitioning at the account levels just for the sake of it.
Having a separate bank account for each logical account sounds like having a separate drive for each folder. Accounting already provides very high levels of organisation (e.g. Chart of Accounts) that don't map directly to bank accounts and a, greatly simplified, version of this would seem to be adequate for personal finances?
Edit: This almost makes me want to write a personal Hyperion Financial Management application...
Edit: This almost makes me want to write a personal Hyperion Financial Management application...
> Does your operating system have all its files directly placed in "/"?
The various directories all share the same disk storage. I would argue that creating multiple accounts in your bank is akin to creating multiple disk volumes.
If one volume runs out of storage, you have to resize it, and requires decreasing the size of another volume.
Just like if one bank account runs out of money, you have to move money from another account.
Though I am unfamiliar with the products mentioned, so perhaps these are virtual accounts that all draw on the same underlying “physical” account, and thus can have a negative balance without incurring overdraft fees.
In which case this would basically be a (simple) accounting app provided by your bank.
I could certainly see some value in simplified accounting added to a banking app, if however you are after “proper” view of your finances, a real double entry accounting system should be used, where you would be able to also track assets outside of the bank (like cash on hand), liabilities (debt), etc.
Personally though I do see value in having a secondary (bank) account for fixed expenses, but that is only because I am too lazy to do “real” accounting, so having this separate account makes it easy to view a history of all fixed expenses (for next year’s budget).
The various directories all share the same disk storage. I would argue that creating multiple accounts in your bank is akin to creating multiple disk volumes.
If one volume runs out of storage, you have to resize it, and requires decreasing the size of another volume.
Just like if one bank account runs out of money, you have to move money from another account.
Though I am unfamiliar with the products mentioned, so perhaps these are virtual accounts that all draw on the same underlying “physical” account, and thus can have a negative balance without incurring overdraft fees.
In which case this would basically be a (simple) accounting app provided by your bank.
I could certainly see some value in simplified accounting added to a banking app, if however you are after “proper” view of your finances, a real double entry accounting system should be used, where you would be able to also track assets outside of the bank (like cash on hand), liabilities (debt), etc.
Personally though I do see value in having a secondary (bank) account for fixed expenses, but that is only because I am too lazy to do “real” accounting, so having this separate account makes it easy to view a history of all fixed expenses (for next year’s budget).
> Counter-question: Does your operating system have all its files directly placed in "/"? Why not?
That's not a counter question. A file system is an abstraction over the physical layout of your hard drives. An accounting system is an abstraction above your accounts.
In the same way, you don't need one hard drive per folder, you don't need a separate bank account per bookkeeping account.
My take away from the closure of Simple and some commenters laments is that personnal accounting still suck.
That's not a counter question. A file system is an abstraction over the physical layout of your hard drives. An accounting system is an abstraction above your accounts.
In the same way, you don't need one hard drive per folder, you don't need a separate bank account per bookkeeping account.
My take away from the closure of Simple and some commenters laments is that personnal accounting still suck.
I think it's a human thing - it works better with the brain if the money is "physically" in a different location (When in reality it makes no difference). It's the same why people actually use envelopes instead of just having a pile of money and a sheet of paper to note what is what.
For me it’s about a single source of truth. Paycheck comes in, it’s in my Safe-to-spend (i.e., not in a goal). I have a separate goal (virtual envelope) for each monthly bill. As I move the bill amount into that goal, it is removed from my safe-to-spend. I can quickly fill up my goals for all monthly expenses (water, electric, cell, etc) and once done, I know how much is left. I don’t have to worry about importing transactions or ensuring an external system is up-to-date and reconciled.
The only advantage I can see is for people who don't monitor their expenditure well so their purchases get denied when they try to spend too much on a particular thing. Otherwise, I agree, there are plenty of services and other banks that allow you to categorize transactions so you know how much you are spending on particular things.
Simple turns this on it's head. Instead of looking back at transactions and how much money has already left, this looks forward. I have house and car payments due on the first, utilities due later in the month, kids college accounts, Internet, car registration due once a year, garbage due quarterly, insurance due every 6 months.
I get paid twice a month. The day after I get paid a job at Simple runs that takes a share of all the above expenses from my account, moves those funds into "envelopes", and gives me a main account view of the money I have left over after my expenses are accounted for. So in the middle of the month I have half my rent and car moved off for 2 weeks in the future.
I guess a similar notion would be to just add all these up, or maybe keep a spreadsheet of them, and have it give me a number to transfer into a secondary account every paycheck, and pay bills off of that.
But the Simple expense view is great, I can see what expenses have already come out (because they are empty), which haven't been paid yet (they are fully funded, according to the progress bar), etc...
In fact, their "categorize transactions" I've found to basically be useless. Aside: Part of this is their system, which has never seemed to be able to learn some transactions. Part of it is that you just can't track Amazon spend (is this Home Improvement, Groceries, books, etc...).
I get paid twice a month. The day after I get paid a job at Simple runs that takes a share of all the above expenses from my account, moves those funds into "envelopes", and gives me a main account view of the money I have left over after my expenses are accounted for. So in the middle of the month I have half my rent and car moved off for 2 weeks in the future.
I guess a similar notion would be to just add all these up, or maybe keep a spreadsheet of them, and have it give me a number to transfer into a secondary account every paycheck, and pay bills off of that.
But the Simple expense view is great, I can see what expenses have already come out (because they are empty), which haven't been paid yet (they are fully funded, according to the progress bar), etc...
In fact, their "categorize transactions" I've found to basically be useless. Aside: Part of this is their system, which has never seemed to be able to learn some transactions. Part of it is that you just can't track Amazon spend (is this Home Improvement, Groceries, books, etc...).
That seems an easy one to me. In your case, you maintain software that provides you a budget sheet. In the case of the OP, the app does that for you.
I can't get myself to pay for services like YNAB or mvelopes.com
I could see someone wanting to pay for a year or two until they've established the habit of disciplined saving. But to perpetually pay a service to present a (useful) facade over your money doesn't seem right if it's not also instilling habits in you that don't depend on software.
I could see someone wanting to pay for a year or two until they've established the habit of disciplined saving. But to perpetually pay a service to present a (useful) facade over your money doesn't seem right if it's not also instilling habits in you that don't depend on software.
YNAB is excellent - its design forces people to budget properly.
It also lets you track all expenses and let’s you keep lifestyle inflation in check.
I’ve found it well worth it (and I’m pretty responsible financially).
Mint on the other hand is totally useless.
It also lets you track all expenses and let’s you keep lifestyle inflation in check.
I’ve found it well worth it (and I’m pretty responsible financially).
Mint on the other hand is totally useless.
> Mint on the other hand is totally useless.
That's hyperbole. Having a bird's eye view of every single account, transaction, investments, net worth, etc. is "totally useless"? No.
I use Mint and it works quite well for keeping an eye on your financial life at a glance. I don't need some micro-managey software like YNAB (that I'd have to pay for monthly!) to continually increase my wealth and keep debt in check - here's my tricks:
* Pay off credit card in full every month (I have one card that I use for gas, etc.)
* Invest 20% into company-matched 401k, my Roth, etc. primarily focused on S&P 500 Index Funds
* Save roughly $275/check into a liquid savings account.
* I have no car payment (paid of my 2010 Subaru that I got for $9k).
* Everything on autopay.
* Don't buy stupid nonsense.
It's worked well thus far. There's no real "need" to budget - KISS principle wins the day again.
That's hyperbole. Having a bird's eye view of every single account, transaction, investments, net worth, etc. is "totally useless"? No.
I use Mint and it works quite well for keeping an eye on your financial life at a glance. I don't need some micro-managey software like YNAB (that I'd have to pay for monthly!) to continually increase my wealth and keep debt in check - here's my tricks:
* Pay off credit card in full every month (I have one card that I use for gas, etc.)
* Invest 20% into company-matched 401k, my Roth, etc. primarily focused on S&P 500 Index Funds
* Save roughly $275/check into a liquid savings account.
* I have no car payment (paid of my 2010 Subaru that I got for $9k).
* Everything on autopay.
* Don't buy stupid nonsense.
It's worked well thus far. There's no real "need" to budget - KISS principle wins the day again.
> That's hyperbole. Having a bird's eye view of every single account, transaction, investments, net worth, etc. is "totally useless"? No.
If you can get it to actually connect to things (I have 2FA on most accounts, and since Mint scrapes the sites and stores passwords in plaintext, it doesn't know how to handle this) and tag everything properly (MCC's vary pretty widely). I think that the promise of Mint is great, but in reality it falls apart as soon as you have more than a few accounts, or start using anything that wasn't originally built in (e.g. 2FA).
That all said, I follow the same general principles: autopay everything in full, invest money first, live within my means (with certain exceptions that are the "budget").
If you can get it to actually connect to things (I have 2FA on most accounts, and since Mint scrapes the sites and stores passwords in plaintext, it doesn't know how to handle this) and tag everything properly (MCC's vary pretty widely). I think that the promise of Mint is great, but in reality it falls apart as soon as you have more than a few accounts, or start using anything that wasn't originally built in (e.g. 2FA).
That all said, I follow the same general principles: autopay everything in full, invest money first, live within my means (with certain exceptions that are the "budget").
I just don't understand giving your banking credentials to a third party. Will your bank even cover fraudulent withdraws if you give your login info to Mint?
This is the main reason I stopped using it. The benefit was too low compared to the risk. Once I started using 2FA and realized how it worked I noped right out of there...
My Sparkasse app (Germany) lets me add other bank accounts and the credentials are stored only in the app. I think there's an EU directive forcing banks to have an open API, which makes it work. Much better than screenscraping.
Is there any such trend in the US?
Is there any such trend in the US?
Giving someone read-only access makes more sense. Even better is like what you mention, a program you run, but open source.
I shared your hesitation as well, but I don't think Mint is storing your bank password in cleartext anymore at least for Chase. I just signed up for Mint the other day and did not see anything like this for any of my accounts. For Chase, they specifically use Oauth to grant read access to the account.
For me, my checking account is the only banking account I really care about. So much so that I don't use my debit card for purchases and only use it for ATM. I really don't care if my credit card gets stolen since that's their problem and not money out of my pocket.
For me, my checking account is the only banking account I really care about. So much so that I don't use my debit card for purchases and only use it for ATM. I really don't care if my credit card gets stolen since that's their problem and not money out of my pocket.
> Mint scrapes the sites and stores passwords in plaintext
Incorrect:
> How secure is my login information I store in Mint?
> Your login user name and passwords are stored securely in a separate database using multi-layered hardware and software encryption. We only store the information needed to save you the trouble of updating, syncing or uploading financial information manually.
Ref: https://mint.intuit.com/how-mint-works/security
Incorrect:
> How secure is my login information I store in Mint?
> Your login user name and passwords are stored securely in a separate database using multi-layered hardware and software encryption. We only store the information needed to save you the trouble of updating, syncing or uploading financial information manually.
Ref: https://mint.intuit.com/how-mint-works/security
In other words, Mint doesn’t store your passwords in plain text, it stores them reversibly encrypted. That is indeed better, because if someone hacks Mint’s database they might not be able to read your passwords. However, it has the same problem as plaintext passwords that if someone at Mint is untrustworthy, they can decrypt your password and pretend to be you. That system makes it inconvenient for you to protect your accounts (you would have to memorize new passwords for all of them) and difficult to apply for restitution later (because it looks like you were the one who logged in).
> "Don't buy stupid nonsense."
That bit is doing a lot of work. Seeing 'bird's eye view' is useless because it has no real effect on behavior after the fact, the feedback loop is too long and disconnected. Also - Mint's software is itself bad and intermixed with the ads it's just hard to figure out what's going on.
How much do you spend on food? How much on groceries? A gift you forgot to plan?
YNAB let's you get a real intuitive understanding for all of this, you know explicitly where every dollar is going and you do it in real time per transaction.
It gives you a lot of power.
Do you need it? No. You've got the basics down with 401k max, monthly savings, Roth IRA, etc. That's awesome.
Could you benefit from it? Almost certainly yes. I'd bet if you used it seriously (even just the 30 day trial) you could trivially double the amount you're saving per month in liquid savings.
One reason I like it a lot is the exactness of it gives me complete confidence I could control my burn rate to any number necessary, good for FI.
It's marketed to people who need help getting out of debt, but it's also good for people with high savings rates and high income. It frees you to allocate large amounts of money to index funds, or stock market bets without worrying about how much you need in your account for auto-pay expenses.
Its yearly subscription cost is effectively negative.
That bit is doing a lot of work. Seeing 'bird's eye view' is useless because it has no real effect on behavior after the fact, the feedback loop is too long and disconnected. Also - Mint's software is itself bad and intermixed with the ads it's just hard to figure out what's going on.
How much do you spend on food? How much on groceries? A gift you forgot to plan?
YNAB let's you get a real intuitive understanding for all of this, you know explicitly where every dollar is going and you do it in real time per transaction.
It gives you a lot of power.
Do you need it? No. You've got the basics down with 401k max, monthly savings, Roth IRA, etc. That's awesome.
Could you benefit from it? Almost certainly yes. I'd bet if you used it seriously (even just the 30 day trial) you could trivially double the amount you're saving per month in liquid savings.
One reason I like it a lot is the exactness of it gives me complete confidence I could control my burn rate to any number necessary, good for FI.
It's marketed to people who need help getting out of debt, but it's also good for people with high savings rates and high income. It frees you to allocate large amounts of money to index funds, or stock market bets without worrying about how much you need in your account for auto-pay expenses.
Its yearly subscription cost is effectively negative.
This is completely your opinion and not necessarily true for any person who reads your comments. I used YNAB for 120 days when it had longer trials. It didn’t do enough for me. It was more annoying for me than any potential savings.
Bird’s eye view has been much more helpful as a middle ground. Not Mint and technically i can budget, but I’m not too interested in that.
Bird’s eye view has been much more helpful as a middle ground. Not Mint and technically i can budget, but I’m not too interested in that.
Do you have a family, or at least entagled budgeting with a significant other? Either one of those makes this workflow almost impossible.
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>Invest 20% into
Seems rather difficult with family.
Seems rather difficult with family.
> There's no real "need" to budget
You just described your ... budget.
You just described your ... budget.
I'd refer to it as more of a "set-it-and-forget-it automated financial framework". I'm not, for example, pondering how much I'm spending on groceries, frantically updating YNAB with those transactions. Everything's sorted and just keeps working for me.
I tried YNAB, but didn't fall in love with it. I currently use Mint, which I'm familiar with and have used for years, but I don't like Intuit. I now pay for Lunch Money and am gradually using it more and more. I'd like to switch over properly at some point to a service that isn't using my data for ads.
I agree, Mint is a joke compared to YNAB. It didn't even come close to addressing my budgeting needs or giving me an insight into my finances.
That and the ads really add insult to injury.
Yes, I pay for YNAB and have for years, because otherwise I would have to rebuild it in Excel and my version would be terrible. It's well-designed, it's fun to use, it makes me less anxious about the state of my finances and it helps me to spend and save more responsibly.
I'm in the same boat. In a world before I found Simple, a spreadsheet with all of my monthly expenses and totals for each account transfer I needed to do was good enough. I can't get myself to see the additional value of mvelopes.com. Simple, however, was a game changer for me. Sad.
What’s the main difference between Simple and YNAB? I’m a YNAB user but have never used Simple. You say that you can’t see the extra value of mvelopes (and I assume YNAB) but if you don’t have Simple then why is YNAB not good enough?
I have both, and since adopting YNAB, my Simple budgets have been redundant and abandoned. Simple offered nothing that YNAB doesn;t, other than direct actions on your account (transfers, etc). That was far outweighed by YNAB's ability to manage multiple accounts, in particular their credit card balance & payment management.
I'm not familiar with how YNAB ingests transaction data, but I seem to remember when I looked at it last that at least some transactions have to be logged manually.
If you used Simple pretty much exclusively you wouldn't have to manually enter any transactions, although you might occasionally have to categorize things.
The obvious exception would be cash transactions, which I don't believe Simple ever tracked in any detail.
If you used Simple pretty much exclusively you wouldn't have to manually enter any transactions, although you might occasionally have to categorize things.
The obvious exception would be cash transactions, which I don't believe Simple ever tracked in any detail.
It’s all automatic. You do have to approve and categorize transactions though. But the import is automatic if you’re using a major bank.
not for all major banks, mine (usaa) forces 2fa which broke ynab and made it useable because i don't want to do data entry for every transaction.
USAA works fine for me. It just asks you to enter the token during login.
EDIT: and I think it migrated to OAuth anyways so no more tokens
EDIT: and I think it migrated to OAuth anyways so no more tokens
I ran into this for alliant. Reach out to YNAB support, they adjust your account supposedly to not use Plaid for instances like MFA being enabled. It wasn't clear if its an all or nothing deal though for all your accounts to use Plaid or not.
It's been said elsewhere but just in case, they recently started using different import provider(s) and many accounts that were broken before now work great, including MFA ones.
They might have fixed this. They switched to using plaid for external accounts this year, and I was able to add several banks which had 2FA earlier today.
I pay for YNAB. For me it's worth it for their auto-import to take a quick look at my spending across accounts at various institutions and to look at larger trends over time. A lot of folks were annoyed when they went to a subscription model, but I think the visibility they provide really does pay for itself.
I tried it. Auto-import never worked reliably. I asked their customer support for help, and they said I should just do it manually.
They seemed like a close alternative, but if I'm doing all this work manually, I might as well use a spread sheet for free.
They seemed like a close alternative, but if I'm doing all this work manually, I might as well use a spread sheet for free.
They've done a bunch of updates to the importing in the last year so it might work better with your institution now. They support Oauth for the bank creds too for those that support it, which is great.
It's still not great. You have to reauth accounts all the time, and I'm constantly getting the little wrench icon telling me they can't pull transactions right now. I've not found a single alternative that will give me a solid overview of all my various accounts as an api that I can build my OWN dashboard off of, otherwise I'd use that. YNAB still gets my money, but reluctantly until then.
How secure is linking your bank account with YNAB?
They use Plaid [0] under the hood. As long as you trust it, it's safe.
[0] https://plaid.com/
[0] https://plaid.com/
[deleted]
so a bit more secure than mint then?
Plaid doesn’t seem very secure reading this thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25753935
Importing greatly depends how well your bank/credit card plays ball. Most banks don't have any incentive to participate and newer security features like 2fa have made it harder/impossible. I do have one bank that grants application tokens for read-only access. The setup UX wasn't awesome, but I wish that was standard.
Unfortunately, I doubt YNAB can just ask people to move banks. Honestly, that, a web interface, and how speedy ACH payments are processed are kind of my highest priorities and would switch banks just for that. But those are all hard to impossible to assess without opening an account. I had a credit union get very confused when I asked if they had a demo of their web UI before I opened an account. I imagine I was the first to ask.
Unfortunately, I doubt YNAB can just ask people to move banks. Honestly, that, a web interface, and how speedy ACH payments are processed are kind of my highest priorities and would switch banks just for that. But those are all hard to impossible to assess without opening an account. I had a credit union get very confused when I asked if they had a demo of their web UI before I opened an account. I imagine I was the first to ask.
They can't ask people to move banks, but TBH I stopped using my credit cards from a certain provider because YNAB wouldn't sync (which drove me to look into other cards and ultimately get a better one that, by chance, would sync).
I've tried YNAB multiple times but would inevitably miss entering a transaction and then it would be a pain reconciling my bank accounts with YNAB. Without tracking the transactions I couldn't accurately use YNAB to determine how much was left in the budget.
Having an envelope like system built into a bank would be extremely useful.
I'm pretty certain I've saved more than $86 in my first year of using YNAB for what it's worth. Ymmv of course.
I was forced to ditch Simple after their ridiculous application policies wouldn't allow my spouse to create an account for us to have a joint account. Since doing so, I've signed up for YouNeedABudget (YNAB) [1], and couldn't be happier. Simple was a great service and I'm sad it is calling quits, but I've outgrown it.
[1] https://www.youneedabudget.com/
[1] https://www.youneedabudget.com/
They used to have pay-once app.
Now you have to pay $12 a month and you are stuck in ecosystem that has your data and require payments forever. That is too steep, especially outside of USA.
I'll kill my first unnecessary expense by not buying it.
Crazy. I somehow got locked in to $45/yr pricing. I really like YNAB but I don't know if I like it for twice the price I'm currently paying..
I’m actually still using the pay-once app. There are hardly any functional changes between that app and the new web-based app.
Other than getting transactions automatically imported, which at least for me is the difference between using it and not using it.
Yeah that doesn’t seem to be working for any of the banks over here (in The Netherlands) anyway.
Where are you running it? The MacOSX one stopped working on newer MacOSX versions.
Linux, with wine.
+1,000,000 for YNAB. It finally taught me that I don’t need to search for a bank with all the money management features I want, I just use YNAB to manage my money and I hardly care what bank account it sits in, it’s all “spent” in YNAB.
I’m a long time (2012) Simple customer and I went with them originally due to their new take on banking and the promise of an API (which they backtracked on). The envelope-type system they built with goals/expenses was nice but looks like a toy compared to YNAB. Now I can pick a new bank that doesn’t need to have any clever savings tools and just use it to hold my money.
I’m a long time (2012) Simple customer and I went with them originally due to their new take on banking and the promise of an API (which they backtracked on). The envelope-type system they built with goals/expenses was nice but looks like a toy compared to YNAB. Now I can pick a new bank that doesn’t need to have any clever savings tools and just use it to hold my money.
I'm still trying to decide between Personal Capital vs. YNAB...
Personal Capital's budgeting tool is quite weak. It's not comparable with YNAB. I would describe Personal Capital more as an investment tracking tool. The most amazing future is that it looks into holdings of the ETFs and mutual funds to figure out your exposure.
Tried both, found YNAB far better for budgeting.
I use Robinhood's banking feature for this (I don't use them as a brokerage, though). It lets me do direct deposit and automatic withrdrawals from a single account, while earning savings account interest. The interest isn't significant at the moment, but it was nice for a few months, before COVID. I use Mint and Personal Capital for monitoring my budget, rather than earmarking funds.
I do this. I've moved everything from my bank into RH because its far easier to play around with money to both deposit and withdraw. I'm seeing similar trends among my college friends.
I'm also going to do everything through my brokerage from now on. I realized I didn't use any of the budgeting or goal features anyways.
I was using the goals in the beginning, but the rates just kept going down.
I was using the goals in the beginning, but the rates just kept going down.
You're getting 0.3% APY, which is pretty useless. I would instead try some of the banks that promise you higher APY rn. There are some offering 2-3%
No one is offerring 2%-3% when the fed rate is at zero. You're about a year behind relity.
https://www.hmbradley.com/ currently does, with the caveat that you have to save at least 20% of your direct deposits.
Interesting. Seems like you could work around the caveat by splitting your paycheck's direct deposit allocation between your checking account bank and HM Bradley, so that from their perspective you're saving 100% of your direct deposit.
Can already do this with normal bank account churning and make way more than 3%
Exactly what I’m doing! Uh... I hope they don’t catch on.
That's pretty cool, although I generally just want enough in my account to cover my monthly expenses, plus buffer. I want the excess going into investments. I don't want my balance growing from quarter to quarter. It looks like you get 0% if you keep a stable balance.
Wait what's the catch? It's insured and still able to give so much interest? Even CDs don't give anywhere close
People who make enough money to save 20% of their deposits probably aren’t going to bother with some convoluted system to earn a maximum of $3000 interest annually. You could make more with AMEX points.
You make amex points if you spend money. I barely spend anything I make (and whatever I spend mostly can't be on cards) so for people like me this will be ideal. Given the pandemic and wfh boom I doubt I'm alone. I'm also extremely averse to every speculative investment bin right now, so if someone guarantees coverage for 3% inflation I'll happily give them my money.
Here's a big one:
> We do not pay interest on account balances above $100,000
https://www.hmbradley.com/apys
> We do not pay interest on account balances above $100,000
https://www.hmbradley.com/apys
That just means people with six figure savings won't use the service, it's still not clear how that helps them achieve profitability with such high interest rates
“Only” covers first 100k, has a bunch of other rules that make it impracticable
Really dissapointed in HN nowadays. Downvoted to hell and people telling me im wrong without doing any of their own research.
Maybe you could edit your comment now that multiple other commenters have shown that you're wrong? There are multiple companies offering 2-3% rn.
Maybe you could edit your comment now that multiple other commenters have shown that you're wrong? There are multiple companies offering 2-3% rn.
TMobile's bank is offering 4% on the first $3000 and 1% on anything after that and they treat it like a checking account with their own debit card.
It was going to be a total no brainer to move nearly all banking to them until I realized they block all automated financial tracking software. No budgeting with YNAB makes it a non starter for a checking account, but luckily YNAB can note transfers in automatically by looking at other accounts. When treated strictly as a basic savings its fine if my total cash on hand is missing the occasional interest payment.
It was going to be a total no brainer to move nearly all banking to them until I realized they block all automated financial tracking software. No budgeting with YNAB makes it a non starter for a checking account, but luckily YNAB can note transfers in automatically by looking at other accounts. When treated strictly as a basic savings its fine if my total cash on hand is missing the occasional interest payment.
> How APY works and what it means for you: As a T-Mobile MONEY customer you earn 4.00% annual percentage yield (APY) on balances up to and including $3,000 in your Checking Account per month when: 1) you are enrolled in a qualifying T-Mobile postpaid wireless plan; 2) you have registered for perks with your T-Mobile ID; and 3) at least $200 in qualifying deposits have posted to your Checking Account before the last business day of the month.
So it's a neat little discount on your T-Mobile bill.
So it's a neat little discount on your T-Mobile bill.
That’s a bank account bonus not a real interest rate. I made 20% APR in 90 days for churning a PNC account by that logic, does that mean I can in turn make 20% on arbitrary deposits on a regular basis?
Sure there are, you just have to meet some requirements like direct deposit and minimum number of debit transactions.
Who's offering 2-3%?
IIRC, Yotta Savings (https://www.withyotta.com/) is in this range. HN did the math on Yotta a few months back:
- founder's comments (claims ~3%): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23786893
- the math (~3.4%): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23781247
Note that it's likely to go down to get in line with other HYSAs over time (and it's fairly easy for them to change the winning probabilities to hit any interest rate). Currently they're just burning VC cash to get users...
Prizepool (https://getprizepool.com/) is another player in this space, unsure where they're at though (I know we could do the math, I just haven't).
- founder's comments (claims ~3%): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23786893
- the math (~3.4%): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23781247
Note that it's likely to go down to get in line with other HYSAs over time (and it's fairly easy for them to change the winning probabilities to hit any interest rate). Currently they're just burning VC cash to get users...
Prizepool (https://getprizepool.com/) is another player in this space, unsure where they're at though (I know we could do the math, I just haven't).
The APY on Yotta has already decreased, it's currently around 1.6%.
I basically use it as an interest checking account for the purpose of paying monthly expenses. It's a very simple system that requires zero babysitting and produces better yield than a real checking account.
I could chase higher yield with my emergency fund than where I currently keep it, at Alliant Credit Union (0.55% APY), but it's not worth the effort. No one does significant better without also having gimmicks.
I could chase higher yield with my emergency fund than where I currently keep it, at Alliant Credit Union (0.55% APY), but it's not worth the effort. No one does significant better without also having gimmicks.
I don't know of anyone offering 2% right now, but for historic purposes here is an article about some great rates above 2% over a year ago: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/11/savings-accounts-besides-all...
Well, since the stock market only goes up [0], just put all your money in TSLA and you'll do better than 2% </s>
[0]: https://twitter.com/stoolpresidente/status/12685424540867502...
[0]: https://twitter.com/stoolpresidente/status/12685424540867502...
TSLA goes up and down a lot... scalping trades on that has been very profitable this year.
Varo Bank offers 2.8% on up to $10k in your savings account if you get direct deposit and use your card 5x/mo. Not the rich features of Simple, YNAB, or even Virtual Wallet...but when they earn next to nothing for interest, that's how those features get paid for (they need your cheap deposits).
https://www.varomoney.com/savings-account/
https://www.varomoney.com/savings-account/
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Try Ally Bank for this. I use it in a similar way. They used to let you create a bunch of accounts but they now have "buckets" in their accounts. I find it pretty useful either way.
Only for savings, which is neat but not as useful.
Interesting, I never noticed buckets were a savings only feature. I've got a checking and a savings account there. To spend money I transfer to checking. There are federal transfer limits on savings accounts though, which could get in the way for some people.
Simple was savings only until pretty recently too so I’m not sure it’d be a deal breaker for most.
That's incorrect. Simple was checking only until recently. (been a simple customer for about 7 years)
Simple's Safe-to-Spend® feature was ahead of its time and today is still a really unique feature among digital banks (standalone budgeting apps notwithstanding). I wonder if a challenger bank could buy that IP from BBVA.
It really is excellent. I’m finding with YNAB, I would micro manage every detail of my money. With safe to spend, I can carve out the major expenses like rent and debt payments automatically. Basically every recurring payment and savings goal. Then you know exactly how much extra you have for miscellaneous expenses. It’s a lot less work, and has basically been on autopilot for a while. I’m worried now that micromanaging a budget would be more stressful and time-intensive.
You could do this easily with YNAB as well but only budgeting for the things you list and throwing everything else into a 'spending money' category.
But you'd be missing out on a lot of features that YNAB offers if you did this.
But you'd be missing out on a lot of features that YNAB offers if you did this.
Being an online bank is largely unprofitable. You still have to operate the backend of a normal bank (which is costly) and you don't have the physical locations to enable the trust you need to get enough customers.
A couple of days ago, I opened a YNAB account to test it out and had the same reasoning: why can't my bank do all of that envelope budgeting stuff?
there's no money for them in doing that, they want you to borrow money (via credit card or other) and pay them back hopefully with interest that's how they make money
Lazy people prefer having one bank for everything. Savings, mortgage, credit card, investments. The way you get all that business is by having better pricing and/or a more polished app than the competition. If people want envelope budgeting (and I don't claim to know whether that's the case) then you should probably implement it.
The money in it is that it makes you more likely to deposit with that bank which gives them the reserves to legally lend out money, like in credit cards, which is how they make money.
A consumer bank is dependent on its deposit base.
A consumer bank is dependent on its deposit base.
I always thought the money was in the float for them. The more money they convince you not to spend and just hold onto in your account, the more float they have to make money off.
Just as a heads up, you can email support after your free trial and ask for an extension. They'll pretty much always give it to you. If you're a student, you can send in your student ID and get a year free. YNAB changed my life.
would love if you shared how it changed your life, I'm always skeptical about these types of things that I end up abandoning after a short time. thanks!
Not parent, but my wife and I have been using YNAB for over 5 years, even before they moved to a web app. It’s changed our lives:
- We never fight about money because we have already planned for the next month together.
- We each get equal amount of no questions asked personal money that the other person cannot criticize how it’s spent.
- When we first started using YNAB we realized we were living off credit card float, and spending money we didn’t have until we got the months paycheck. We thought we were doing great just because we would pay our credit card off each month. But we were actually 100% relying on our future paychecks to survive.
- My wife lost her job 2 years ago and was out of work for a month due to COVID. The budget gave us an objective view rather than an emotional one. In both cases, we didn’t need to even rely on our emergency fund because of flexible budgeting.
- We are able to maximize credit card rewards without being concerned with spending too much.
- We are able to easily track our cash equivalent net worth.
Most of these things are not YNAB specific, but the software makes things so much easier.
- We never fight about money because we have already planned for the next month together.
- We each get equal amount of no questions asked personal money that the other person cannot criticize how it’s spent.
- When we first started using YNAB we realized we were living off credit card float, and spending money we didn’t have until we got the months paycheck. We thought we were doing great just because we would pay our credit card off each month. But we were actually 100% relying on our future paychecks to survive.
- My wife lost her job 2 years ago and was out of work for a month due to COVID. The budget gave us an objective view rather than an emotional one. In both cases, we didn’t need to even rely on our emergency fund because of flexible budgeting.
- We are able to maximize credit card rewards without being concerned with spending too much.
- We are able to easily track our cash equivalent net worth.
Most of these things are not YNAB specific, but the software makes things so much easier.
Thank you I will have try this out and go in with a positive mindset that it's a structured and objective system and I can't honestly say where my money is going today which is causing me to spend money frivolously on things I don't really need.
Honestly I might just make an Excel spreadsheet and track monthly credit card billing statements and total income/month and net profit after debits (bills, living expenses, etc.)
Think this would work like YNAB to a degree until I'm fully invested in budgeting?
Honestly I might just make an Excel spreadsheet and track monthly credit card billing statements and total income/month and net profit after debits (bills, living expenses, etc.)
Think this would work like YNAB to a degree until I'm fully invested in budgeting?
I have tried a few of these budgeting applications. Unless you have a large amount of bank accounts in different banks, investments with asset managers etc, it is just as easy to process it in Excel. I just download my monthly bank transactions and import them into an Excel flat file. Each item I tag against an expense hierarchy. Then I run a simple pivot table to compare spend over time. It’s not as fast, but it’s free, very flexible and I’m not bound by predetermined rules.
It's hard for them to do it and that is one of the reasons BBVA bought simple. Did it work? No, now they sell it.
Banks are too busy updating their legacy systems to process their batches. They are barely catching up with mobile applications and to show transactions in real time there so they do not have resources to implement this type of things.
Of course it is a matter of priority buy that is how it works now and traditional banks still have the power to drive the industry.
Banks are too busy updating their legacy systems to process their batches. They are barely catching up with mobile applications and to show transactions in real time there so they do not have resources to implement this type of things.
Of course it is a matter of priority buy that is how it works now and traditional banks still have the power to drive the industry.
Some banks do (monzo and revolut)
I miss monzo so much :(
I moved out of the UK and sadly never found a real alternative.
I had a simple workflow that made me happy:
I had two budgets, one for fixed spenses such as rent and phone, another for everything else (food, taxi, entertainment, whatever). I'd divide my "everything else" budget by 30 and tell monzo to move everyday that amount into the credit card account.
So basically... A daily budget. It was something like 20-30 pounds per day. I wanted something more expensive than usual? I'd "save" for a few days.
It's not the most efficient budgeting, but it was so much fun.
I moved out of the UK and sadly never found a real alternative.
I had a simple workflow that made me happy:
I had two budgets, one for fixed spenses such as rent and phone, another for everything else (food, taxi, entertainment, whatever). I'd divide my "everything else" budget by 30 and tell monzo to move everyday that amount into the credit card account.
So basically... A daily budget. It was something like 20-30 pounds per day. I wanted something more expensive than usual? I'd "save" for a few days.
It's not the most efficient budgeting, but it was so much fun.
I think Monzo is making moves to expand into the US. There's a waitlist (you might be bumped up if you were a UK customer?). I got one but didn't end up using it very often.
They were, but then they hit funding issues in spring 2020 and appear to be scaling back their US expansion.
https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/09/monzo-to-shutter-las-vegas...
https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/09/monzo-to-shutter-las-vegas...
I'm in Singapore, probably faster to wait for an asian neo-bank to appear than for Monzo to get here
The other way around. They deny you if you're a UK customer.
A few questions:
-Why do you need to actually move the money around?
-What happens if you overspend in an envelope?
-Do you actually have different accounts/routing numbers for the envelopes?
I hope this answers your questions:
1. I want to move the money around so I don't spend it and I know I have enough to pay my bills. I don't want to see $1,000 and think "I'm going to spend that". Similarly, I don't want to see a charge come through for a bunch of bills that I don't have enough money for.
2. In Simple's app, if you overspend in an expense or goal, it takes it out of your "safe-to-spend" amount (think: your total spending money). It notifies you that you "overspent" so you can move money around in your little envelopes to fix it.
3. In Simple's case, you have one literal checking and up to two literal savings accounts. The expense/goal "envelopes" are virtual buckets in the checking account, not actual accounts with account/routing numbers. In the past, I've used many literal checking/savings accounts for this purpose.
1. I want to move the money around so I don't spend it and I know I have enough to pay my bills. I don't want to see $1,000 and think "I'm going to spend that". Similarly, I don't want to see a charge come through for a bunch of bills that I don't have enough money for.
2. In Simple's app, if you overspend in an expense or goal, it takes it out of your "safe-to-spend" amount (think: your total spending money). It notifies you that you "overspent" so you can move money around in your little envelopes to fix it.
3. In Simple's case, you have one literal checking and up to two literal savings accounts. The expense/goal "envelopes" are virtual buckets in the checking account, not actual accounts with account/routing numbers. In the past, I've used many literal checking/savings accounts for this purpose.
I still don't get how it's different in practice than something like the budget feature in Mint?
Basically it's pre-allocating the money instead of just watching what you spend and bucketing it as you go. But unless it's actually going to overdraft the account or decline your card somehow when a bucket is empty instead of taking it from the total amount, those are equivalent.
Basically it's pre-allocating the money instead of just watching what you spend and bucketing it as you go. But unless it's actually going to overdraft the account or decline your card somehow when a bucket is empty instead of taking it from the total amount, those are equivalent.
I think the main difference is in the quality of the experience. Their mobile app is a joy to use, and the integration with the actual banking side of things is reliable and instantaneous.
Instead of a separate budgeting app and banking app, you can tweak your budgets from the same place that you deposit checks and transfer money to other banks.
Instead of a separate budgeting app and banking app, you can tweak your budgets from the same place that you deposit checks and transfer money to other banks.
Does the Mint budget feature include rollover for money not spent?
I think so, but I leave it off to try and start from a clean slate and save a the leftover instead if possible. But you can also change the dates of charges, so you can move stuff to next month or the previous month if there was room left over which I find convenient for spreading out big purchases.
Having rollover is a defining aspect of envelope budgeting. I put aside $150/mo for house repairs. I may have multiple repairs a year, or go almost 2 years without repairs. Rollover makes it easy to make sense of this madness. Multiply this by M for M other categories where spending is not regular.
> But you can also change the dates of charges, so you can move stuff to next month or the previous month if there was room left over which I find convenient for spreading out big purchases.
I do not want to alter the actual record of charges - that would cause lots of other problems. And I don't want to manually babysit this. I want to be able to get a balance of my account with all the money set aside subtracted out (regardless of whether it was spent or not).
Envelope budgeting is an incredibly simple algorithm, and I find it quite disheartening that most open source financial software does not support it. YNAB has shown how helpful it is to many, many people. I think Ledger and hledger are the only open source applications I know where one can do this.
> But you can also change the dates of charges, so you can move stuff to next month or the previous month if there was room left over which I find convenient for spreading out big purchases.
I do not want to alter the actual record of charges - that would cause lots of other problems. And I don't want to manually babysit this. I want to be able to get a balance of my account with all the money set aside subtracted out (regardless of whether it was spent or not).
Envelope budgeting is an incredibly simple algorithm, and I find it quite disheartening that most open source financial software does not support it. YNAB has shown how helpful it is to many, many people. I think Ledger and hledger are the only open source applications I know where one can do this.
Geez people are really religious about this stuff. I don't get why I got downvoted just trying to answer someone's questions about features in a software product and explaining how I use them.
If this is what works for you then great. You've convinced me that home/car repairs in particular should rollover, I'm going to start doing that in my budget. All I was saying is that by default I don't want things like food or shopping budgets to roll over, since I don't want to spend money I don't need to just because it was in the budget. It's just what works for me.
If this is what works for you then great. You've convinced me that home/car repairs in particular should rollover, I'm going to start doing that in my budget. All I was saying is that by default I don't want things like food or shopping budgets to roll over, since I don't want to spend money I don't need to just because it was in the budget. It's just what works for me.
What of you do most transactions with a credit card. (I use a credit card for almost everything for the points, and pay it off in full every month.)
Can it categorize specific CC transactions, and pull the money out of that envelope when you pay your CC bill?
Can it categorize specific CC transactions, and pull the money out of that envelope when you pay your CC bill?
Mentally, moving the money into different envelopes keeps you from spending money you don't have. Behind the scenes, I think they only use one bank account with one account number, but it helps you mentally keep track of where things should be.
You can specify daily transfers to slowly fill up an emergency fund or vacation. The beauty is when your car breaks down, you might have a repair fund that you can deduct from and you don't see your main balance drop.
But it's all just lipstick on a bank. When I used them, I think it was Bancorp, but they moved to a spanish bank when I hopped off.
You can specify daily transfers to slowly fill up an emergency fund or vacation. The beauty is when your car breaks down, you might have a repair fund that you can deduct from and you don't see your main balance drop.
But it's all just lipstick on a bank. When I used them, I think it was Bancorp, but they moved to a spanish bank when I hopped off.
No, the money is tagged differently but is all in the same account.
For people who have no self control without resorting to playing tricks on themselves I guess. I can't empathize at all, all I need is a spreadsheet at most, but I guess it works for some people.
I can't empathize with your lack of empathy. All I need is to try to put myself in someone's else shoes to feel empathy, going through what they're going through is not required.
I understand it like I understand some people are allergic to fish, but I can't directly empathize with them either because I've never had an allergic reaction. You knew what I meant.
I know what you meant, and you meant contempt.
> For people who have no self control without resorting to playing tricks on themselves I guess
> For people who have no self control without resorting to playing tricks on themselves I guess
I struggled with money for a long time before a bunch of “tricks” helped get my life in order. There are a lot of things that affect this in psych literature, including growing up poor and several mental disorders. Congrats that your particular circumstances never made this an issue for you.
Bragging about your lack of empathy doesn’t make you a badass, it just makes you sound like a dick.
Bragging about your lack of empathy doesn’t make you a badass, it just makes you sound like a dick.
I’m great with money and I used to use a spreadsheet but Simple is so much nicer because it’s highly automated.
It’s a well made, convenient tool. Insulting people because they use tools is idiotic.
It’s a well made, convenient tool. Insulting people because they use tools is idiotic.
This is no different than a spreadsheet or a personal accounting system, it's just opinionated and made easy for people to implement. I could see why some people would like it. I can also see where it's extra for many people.
That's how it happens to people. They believe they are right and it's others who have no self control. How do you know you have more self control than these people? Can you confirm it?
Does Stripe treasury actually enable people to build independent banks?
My understanding was that it was a way of enabling companies to offer bank like functionality to their existing users. For instance Uber could give drivers an "Uber" bank account.
Not that you could build your own bank on top of it...but perhaps I'm mistaken.
My understanding was that it was a way of enabling companies to offer bank like functionality to their existing users. For instance Uber could give drivers an "Uber" bank account.
Not that you could build your own bank on top of it...but perhaps I'm mistaken.
No, you're right, you can't build your B2C "bank" on it. Other services exist for that (e.g. https://www.solarisbank.com)
I think what he's saying is to just have a service that emulates what he described simplebank doing for him with Stripe Treasury and the banks that support it.
I've thoroughly enjoyed using Capital One's online banking for pretty much this. I have ~20 different savings accounts that I use for budgeting envelopes (you can have up to 25, I think) and each has their own routing/account numbers so you can set up services to pull directly from them and I set up automation to put $X in them from a "main" income account every 2 weeks, so I don't have to manually move money from account to account unless it's for something out of the ordinary. It effectively lets me set up envelope accounts that get automatically filled each month and automatically withdrawn from as charges happen, which is quite nice (and sounds similar to what Simple was doing?).
Dunno if it helps as a straight-up Simple replacement, but it works well for me so I thought I'd give them a shout out.
Dunno if it helps as a straight-up Simple replacement, but it works well for me so I thought I'd give them a shout out.
What are your “envelopes”/accounts and what do you actually do with them?
For example if you have a groceries envelope. How does that change anything for you? Would you buy more or less food at some point? Would you rebalance it at the end of the year? Is there some calculation of I are too spent too much this week so we’re making food?
I ask because I have a reasonable I does what I spend money on and it’s not really any surprise. My mortgage is x, if I owned on a car it would be y, if I’m out I buy food for the week, etc.
For example if you have a groceries envelope. How does that change anything for you? Would you buy more or less food at some point? Would you rebalance it at the end of the year? Is there some calculation of I are too spent too much this week so we’re making food?
I ask because I have a reasonable I does what I spend money on and it’s not really any surprise. My mortgage is x, if I owned on a car it would be y, if I’m out I buy food for the week, etc.
Most of the accounts are for things that have a mostly-fixed price per month (e.g. utilities/insurance/investing that might cost more/less month-to-month, but average out to $X, which gets automatically put in them each month), or things that build up each month and get spent whenever (e.g. gifts/travel budgets that I put $X into each month, then pull from as-needed whenever it's someone's birthday or the $ is high enough to go on a trip). Plus a couple annually-withdrawn accounts for subscriptions (staggered for things that renew on different months, so I don't withdraw too many times in a single month), e.g. spotify, xbox live, notebook.ai, etc.
For the more fluid day-to-day stuff that I might make "withdrawals" from multiple times a month (like groceries and random spending), I usually stick to using checking accounts (which you only get 3 of on CO, unfortunately), but yeah, I have $X put in each month and look at how much is left to get a gauge on how much to spend or not (which does make me spend more/less on food/whatever at some points).
I rebalance every few months and look at whether I'm averaging more/less than I expect on each account and adjust the automatic deposits into each account accordingly, so it's mostly just a way to visualize a budget day-to-day while also making it easy to go back and see actual spending numbers month-to-month (which I also track with spreadsheets, but that's another conversation!).
For the more fluid day-to-day stuff that I might make "withdrawals" from multiple times a month (like groceries and random spending), I usually stick to using checking accounts (which you only get 3 of on CO, unfortunately), but yeah, I have $X put in each month and look at how much is left to get a gauge on how much to spend or not (which does make me spend more/less on food/whatever at some points).
I rebalance every few months and look at whether I'm averaging more/less than I expect on each account and adjust the automatic deposits into each account accordingly, so it's mostly just a way to visualize a budget day-to-day while also making it easy to go back and see actual spending numbers month-to-month (which I also track with spreadsheets, but that's another conversation!).
So you have a separate account for your rent, for your utilities, for your insurance, etc?
If these are all roughly fixed costs, I have trouble understanding what you're gaining from this rather than having them all in one account, except additional headaches.
If these are all roughly fixed costs, I have trouble understanding what you're gaining from this rather than having them all in one account, except additional headaches.
Automatically filling those envelopes (setting aside that money) prevents you from accidentally spending that money and getting yourself in a bind when it comes due. It's just a digital version of physical envelopes, which people also use to make sure they don't overspend.
If you look in your spending account and you have $80 left for the month, you're gonna budget around that, buy cheaper meals, hold off on purchases, etc. If you look in a singular account and it's a few thousand (covering your rent, insurance, utilities, etc that'll all get withdrawn on some day), you're a lot more likely to accidentally overspend and overdraft.
If you set your money aside for expected expenses when you get it, it makes it a bit easier to know exactly how much you have left over and can actually spend (or save, or invest, etc) that month.
If you look in your spending account and you have $80 left for the month, you're gonna budget around that, buy cheaper meals, hold off on purchases, etc. If you look in a singular account and it's a few thousand (covering your rent, insurance, utilities, etc that'll all get withdrawn on some day), you're a lot more likely to accidentally overspend and overdraft.
If you set your money aside for expected expenses when you get it, it makes it a bit easier to know exactly how much you have left over and can actually spend (or save, or invest, etc) that month.
Sure, but you could have a single account called "bills."
What I'm struggling with is why anyone would want accounts called "Rent", "Utilities", "Insurance", etc.
What I'm struggling with is why anyone would want accounts called "Rent", "Utilities", "Insurance", etc.
>Sure, but you could have a single account called "bills."
Ah, I specifically don't because:
1) Capital One gives you 25 savings accounts, but only 3 checking accounts, and
2) There's a federal limit of 6 withdrawals per month from savings accounts, and
3) I already use my 3 allotted checking accounts for unpredictable day-to-day purchases (an account for my spending budget, an account for my wife's spending budget, and a shared account for family/house expenses like groceries/gas).
I sometimes bundle together some things like subscriptions so 2-3 expenses can pull from the same account sometimes, but there are the occasional problems where a service or product will charge more than once per month (unexpectedly) and I don't want to risk exceeding 6 withdrawals/month and getting an account shut down. Seems easier to just separate everything out so you don't have to think/worry about it.
And separate accounts remind me of what the funds in each are for (and seeing each one filled is reassuring to know that there was enough money to transfer into each envelope without any issues -- if you see a 0 in an account early in the month, you have time to figure out how to pay for that thing, instead of getting surprised when it comes due and a shared account can't cover it). That seems useful enough -- seems like no downsides and nothing but improvements over having a single account that mixes everything.
I'd probably do things the same way even if CO offered 25 checking accounts, although it might make sense to consolidate a few of the smaller recurring expenses into slightly fewer, more high-level accounts to make things easier at-a-glance.
Ah, I specifically don't because:
1) Capital One gives you 25 savings accounts, but only 3 checking accounts, and
2) There's a federal limit of 6 withdrawals per month from savings accounts, and
3) I already use my 3 allotted checking accounts for unpredictable day-to-day purchases (an account for my spending budget, an account for my wife's spending budget, and a shared account for family/house expenses like groceries/gas).
I sometimes bundle together some things like subscriptions so 2-3 expenses can pull from the same account sometimes, but there are the occasional problems where a service or product will charge more than once per month (unexpectedly) and I don't want to risk exceeding 6 withdrawals/month and getting an account shut down. Seems easier to just separate everything out so you don't have to think/worry about it.
And separate accounts remind me of what the funds in each are for (and seeing each one filled is reassuring to know that there was enough money to transfer into each envelope without any issues -- if you see a 0 in an account early in the month, you have time to figure out how to pay for that thing, instead of getting surprised when it comes due and a shared account can't cover it). That seems useful enough -- seems like no downsides and nothing but improvements over having a single account that mixes everything.
I'd probably do things the same way even if CO offered 25 checking accounts, although it might make sense to consolidate a few of the smaller recurring expenses into slightly fewer, more high-level accounts to make things easier at-a-glance.
For example: I have 21 expenses in Simple. They're as small as "Spotify: $16.25/mo" and "1Password: $60/year". As large as mortgage, kid stuff, groceries, annual car registration, car insurance, etc. Plus about 8 savings goals.
Ok. I get that... but you know Spotify is $16.25/mo. Recurring. Every year you know exactly how much it will be. So I guess I just don’t really get it what that envelope is doing. Maybe making sure you don’t get double charged or price change?
But... car Insurance I do get. If you get billed every six months getting that big bill out of nowhere does kind of suck.
But... car Insurance I do get. If you get billed every six months getting that big bill out of nowhere does kind of suck.
Have you tried privacy? (https://privacy.com) seems to be pretty similar to the enveloping you’re talking about.
Privacy would be an addition on top of the envelope, where only one card can access the envelope. But Simple's UI hid the total value of everything (+ the envelope).
Privacy is a proxy, not the destination.
Privacy is a proxy, not the destination.
Yep! I use Privacy with almost all of my online transactions and have my Simple account setup as the funding source. That way I don’t give out my debit card number.
I recommend PNC's Virtual Wallet actually. It's not quite as nice as what you're describing here, but the main interface is a calendar which shows upcoming bill payments, scheduled ACH transfers, checks you've written, and your paycheck. It uses that to calculate a free balance before your next paycheck. It also has tools to schedule automatic transfers between accounts (checking/spend, reserve, and savings).
Their landing page for the product is absolutely awful: https://www.pnc.com/en/personal-banking/virtual-wallet-overv...
You can see screenshots of at least the mobile version on the play store though: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pnc.ecomme...
Their landing page for the product is absolutely awful: https://www.pnc.com/en/personal-banking/virtual-wallet-overv...
You can see screenshots of at least the mobile version on the play store though: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pnc.ecomme...
I've tried PNC, it is an absolute disaster in terms of website, app, fees, timeliness, etc. I have absolutely no idea why anyone would open an account with them.
What I had heard was that they had excellent customer support, but then they accidentally locked up my entire checking account for weeks and claimed they couldn't do anything, I just had to wait - until I literally contacted the CEO. I have, of course, since closed my account there.
What I had heard was that they had excellent customer support, but then they accidentally locked up my entire checking account for weeks and claimed they couldn't do anything, I just had to wait - until I literally contacted the CEO. I have, of course, since closed my account there.
UPDATE:
Qube Money and Envel.ai seem to be the most similar competitors after searching for a bit.
Here's an article on Qube Money's website: https://blog.qubemoney.com/leaving-simple-bank-heres-why-qub...
In that article, there's a link to a Google Sheet that someone on Reddit created comparing alternatives: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/2/d/1Etr8dGtviSRpdAjR...
Qube Money and Envel.ai seem to be the most similar competitors after searching for a bit.
Here's an article on Qube Money's website: https://blog.qubemoney.com/leaving-simple-bank-heres-why-qub...
In that article, there's a link to a Google Sheet that someone on Reddit created comparing alternatives: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/2/d/1Etr8dGtviSRpdAjR...
I haven’t been a PNC customer in years but as I recall, their “Virtual Wallet” account allowed for similar functionality (not using an envelope concept, but by allocating/reserving money to various recurring expenses so you’d see an adjusted balance after factoring in those upcoming payments). I’m sure the service has changed in the past 5+ years since I used it, but it may be worth checking out. The only reason I left PNC was because I moved to a region where they didn’t have any physical branches.
Outside of rent and automated savings I actually just use good old envelopes for all of my other purchases.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0721TMDCL/
The annoying part is going to the bank once a month to get the cash and then making sure you have the right denominations to easily distribute to each envelope. It took a few months for me to get used to it but my spending went way down.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0721TMDCL/
The annoying part is going to the bank once a month to get the cash and then making sure you have the right denominations to easily distribute to each envelope. It took a few months for me to get used to it but my spending went way down.
> When a charge comes in for that expense
Do you categorize the expense or is it automatically categorized to the correct spending envelope?
---
Treasury is B2B focused at the moment but there must be another way to do this...
Do you categorize the expense or is it automatically categorized to the correct spending envelope?
---
Treasury is B2B focused at the moment but there must be another way to do this...
You can make sure that a recurring transaction is always categorized to the same category and then that the money is taken from that “envelop” based on the category.
So my rent payment will always get automatically categorized to rent, and then all transactions in the rent category automatically pull from a specific “envelop”.
Envelops are just a UI/helpful budgeting thing; it’s not an actually different account.
So my rent payment will always get automatically categorized to rent, and then all transactions in the rent category automatically pull from a specific “envelop”.
Envelops are just a UI/helpful budgeting thing; it’s not an actually different account.
Agreed. I've been using envelope budgeting since college and I simply can't fathom why most people don't do it. Actually, I can fathom it: it's because no one has been willing to keep this incredible feature in an easy-to-use product and support that product long enough for people to see the value.
In college I used gnucash for this and even wrote a (now very old and somewhat embarrassing) article about it (https://organicdesign.nz/A_day_in_the_life_of_a_dollar).
After I got a bit tired of gnucash's relatively baroque interface I moved over to https://www.mvelopes.com, but I found it expensive, slow, and just not to my taste (it might be better now, this was still over a decade ago).
Next, I noticed this newfangled site called Mint.com. I liked it right away and even had a phone conversation with its founder about the envelope budgeting idea. He said he really liked it and would look into it but then of course Mint got acquired by Intuit and we all know what Intuit does to creative product ideas. I still use Mint to track net worth and cash flow but every time I open it I sigh at what could have been.
Some years ago I heard about Simple and was incredibly excited that an actual BANK finally grokked what was so obviously awesome about this idea. I signed up right away and for a few months enjoyed budgeting bliss. But I knew it was likely to end in corporate takeover sadness and so I avoided moving my accounts to it. This is a decision I regretted having to make, and regret being right about.
Some years ago I got the bug again and spoke to some startups who were trying to democratize the "connect to your bank API" space, which would let folks like me just make a tool ourselves and maybe productize it without having to look for VC funding just to afford the stupid license fees for bank connectivity. I had a few good conversations but no one else seemed anywhere near as excited about it as I was.
Fast forward to today: I work at a FAANG company doing interesting stuff and have pretty much abandoned my dream of doing finances this way. I've tried gnucash again. I've tried spreadsheets. I've tried custom personal programs. None of them are really good.
You REALLY want your bank to do this.
What you want is to tie this to your debit and credit cards and have them all pool from the same "virtual subaccounts".
What you want is to be able to have your credit card be declined if you go over budget (with an option to override).
What you want is to create a tree of accounts in under a second using your smartphone without having to fill out forms.
But you won't get it, it seems.
Product idea: A bank. With a a nice API. That's it. I'll take my startup idea equity now.
In college I used gnucash for this and even wrote a (now very old and somewhat embarrassing) article about it (https://organicdesign.nz/A_day_in_the_life_of_a_dollar).
After I got a bit tired of gnucash's relatively baroque interface I moved over to https://www.mvelopes.com, but I found it expensive, slow, and just not to my taste (it might be better now, this was still over a decade ago).
Next, I noticed this newfangled site called Mint.com. I liked it right away and even had a phone conversation with its founder about the envelope budgeting idea. He said he really liked it and would look into it but then of course Mint got acquired by Intuit and we all know what Intuit does to creative product ideas. I still use Mint to track net worth and cash flow but every time I open it I sigh at what could have been.
Some years ago I heard about Simple and was incredibly excited that an actual BANK finally grokked what was so obviously awesome about this idea. I signed up right away and for a few months enjoyed budgeting bliss. But I knew it was likely to end in corporate takeover sadness and so I avoided moving my accounts to it. This is a decision I regretted having to make, and regret being right about.
Some years ago I got the bug again and spoke to some startups who were trying to democratize the "connect to your bank API" space, which would let folks like me just make a tool ourselves and maybe productize it without having to look for VC funding just to afford the stupid license fees for bank connectivity. I had a few good conversations but no one else seemed anywhere near as excited about it as I was.
Fast forward to today: I work at a FAANG company doing interesting stuff and have pretty much abandoned my dream of doing finances this way. I've tried gnucash again. I've tried spreadsheets. I've tried custom personal programs. None of them are really good.
You REALLY want your bank to do this.
What you want is to tie this to your debit and credit cards and have them all pool from the same "virtual subaccounts".
What you want is to be able to have your credit card be declined if you go over budget (with an option to override).
What you want is to create a tree of accounts in under a second using your smartphone without having to fill out forms.
But you won't get it, it seems.
Product idea: A bank. With a a nice API. That's it. I'll take my startup idea equity now.
I'm not so sure you want your bank to do this, because there is no easy aggregate view if you have multiple banks and/or other accounts to track. I have I think 6 currently with no way to merge (curse of bouncing between countries).
Gnucash is as baroque as you say, but the only one of your options above that actually works and solves this problem (aggregate view) reasonably, of course that can't help you with things like virtual CC limit above. Still, it's much nicer than doing double entry with spreadsheets.
Gnucash is as baroque as you say, but the only one of your options above that actually works and solves this problem (aggregate view) reasonably, of course that can't help you with things like virtual CC limit above. Still, it's much nicer than doing double entry with spreadsheets.
I haven't used GnuCash in many years, but when I did, it did not support envelope budgeting.
The way I found to do it is to use the account tree feature to have "virtual subaccounts" under real accounts. That way you'd have something like:
- Checking - Food - Housing - Entertainment - Emergency Reserve
Your paycheck would go into checking and then you'd "fund" those subaccounts from the top level account. Then, when you reconcile your statements (I did it every day by going online), you "spend" out of the subaccounts.
- Checking - Food - Housing - Entertainment - Emergency Reserve
Your paycheck would go into checking and then you'd "fund" those subaccounts from the top level account. Then, when you reconcile your statements (I did it every day by going online), you "spend" out of the subaccounts.
This is doable, but still a bit of a pain:
I pay using different accounts (bank accounts or credit cards). Groceries, in particular, I pay with both checks and cards. Admittedly, this is still a problem with many envelope budgeting SW, but they usually have ways to mitigate this.
The other problem: Say I have two checking accounts A and B, and I pay for groceries with A and car expenses with B. One month I overspend car stuff and my envelope for B is in the negative, and I don't have enough emergency reserve. I take money out of my grocery envelope under A to bring the car envelope in B back to 0.
Now if I did this in GnuCash, it will show a wrong balance in one of my checking accounts (unless I physically transferred money between the two accounts).
Your setup will work if you tend to spend everything from one account. I am curious, though: If you do it this way, doesn't it make reconciling a bit of a pain? Let me explain:
When I go to do groceries, I usually have multiple categories I am purchasing (example below):
1. Groceries = $60
2. Supplies = $30
3. Miscellaneous (catch-all) = $10
I pay with a check of $100. How do you represent this in GnuCash? Will you list 3 separate transactions coming out of each virtual subaccount? If so, do you then not reconcile with your bank statement? Or does GnuCash let you mark it all as one transaction under Checking to make reconciliation easy?
Ledger CLI has good support for "true" virtual accounts, so that the "real" accounts show the real world transactions (it will show up as one transaction from Checking to the Grocery Store), while simultaneously letting you split this into the 3 virtual budget accounts.
I pay using different accounts (bank accounts or credit cards). Groceries, in particular, I pay with both checks and cards. Admittedly, this is still a problem with many envelope budgeting SW, but they usually have ways to mitigate this.
The other problem: Say I have two checking accounts A and B, and I pay for groceries with A and car expenses with B. One month I overspend car stuff and my envelope for B is in the negative, and I don't have enough emergency reserve. I take money out of my grocery envelope under A to bring the car envelope in B back to 0.
Now if I did this in GnuCash, it will show a wrong balance in one of my checking accounts (unless I physically transferred money between the two accounts).
Your setup will work if you tend to spend everything from one account. I am curious, though: If you do it this way, doesn't it make reconciling a bit of a pain? Let me explain:
When I go to do groceries, I usually have multiple categories I am purchasing (example below):
1. Groceries = $60
2. Supplies = $30
3. Miscellaneous (catch-all) = $10
I pay with a check of $100. How do you represent this in GnuCash? Will you list 3 separate transactions coming out of each virtual subaccount? If so, do you then not reconcile with your bank statement? Or does GnuCash let you mark it all as one transaction under Checking to make reconciliation easy?
Ledger CLI has good support for "true" virtual accounts, so that the "real" accounts show the real world transactions (it will show up as one transaction from Checking to the Grocery Store), while simultaneously letting you split this into the 3 virtual budget accounts.
Gnucash allows split transactions, so your case is not a problem. So your check of $100 out of your checking account gets split into 3 different places, e.g. expense accounts.
Your actual representation of chequing accounts should really represent the bank account,so you shouldn't do what you describe (that lead to a wrong balance), your actual budgeting is done elsewhere.
If you weren't doing envelope budgeting, you might just mark things into expense accounts, so they keep a running track of what you've spent.
I haven't used it for a while so may get details a bit mixed, but the gist of it is right, If you want to do envelope style budgeting, you have a few possibilities. One is to do regular expense accounts but change your reporting period to say 1 month, and you use the report tools to see what is happening. In this way if you overspend in one, and underspend in another, it all rolls up into the same total. Another way would be more explicit, you would allocate a liability account 1st of each month for each "envelope" and then spend against that. You could freely transfer between these, and you can carry over etc. This would give you an up to date view easily. There are other schemes, depends what you want to make easy and what you make hard.
By the way I'm pretty sure I remember gnucash has a built in budget tool also, but I've never used it; might be close enough to what you want to be the least effort.
Your actual representation of chequing accounts should really represent the bank account,so you shouldn't do what you describe (that lead to a wrong balance), your actual budgeting is done elsewhere.
If you weren't doing envelope budgeting, you might just mark things into expense accounts, so they keep a running track of what you've spent.
I haven't used it for a while so may get details a bit mixed, but the gist of it is right, If you want to do envelope style budgeting, you have a few possibilities. One is to do regular expense accounts but change your reporting period to say 1 month, and you use the report tools to see what is happening. In this way if you overspend in one, and underspend in another, it all rolls up into the same total. Another way would be more explicit, you would allocate a liability account 1st of each month for each "envelope" and then spend against that. You could freely transfer between these, and you can carry over etc. This would give you an up to date view easily. There are other schemes, depends what you want to make easy and what you make hard.
By the way I'm pretty sure I remember gnucash has a built in budget tool also, but I've never used it; might be close enough to what you want to be the least effort.
> Gnucash allows split transactions, so your case is not a problem. So your check of $100 out of your checking account gets split into 3 different places, e.g. expense accounts.
I'm aware of that, which is what I meant: If you do it this way, then you can't do envelope budgeting using subaccounts the way the original commenter said (and I agree with you that you should not do it this way).
Both the methods you propose involve significant work on my part, which to me means "Gnucash doesn't support it." For the first method:
> In this way if you overspend in one, and underspend in another, it all rolls up into the same total.
Arguably, this goes against envelope budgeting. The whole analogy is mirroring the physical world, where an envelope cannot go negative. In my envelopes, if one goes negative, then I need to move money from another envelope into it immediately. In your first scenario, since you're using real accounts, we should not do that (otherwise we lose real spending habits data).
Your second approach is closer, but it's a fair amount of work (or perhaps I misunderstood it). Using my example above, if I go to the store and spend $60 on groceries, $30 on supplies and $10 on misc, how do you propose I put that in Gnucash using those liability accounts?
There's always some way to hack it, but when you actually do it for a while, those hacks become tedious. As I said in another comment, the mechanics of envelope budgeting are easy to code, and I'd like the SW to handle those details for me.
I did play with the built-in budget tool. It's like the typical budget tool in most such SW: No carryover of excess budget - you have to manually track it and update it each month.
I'm aware of that, which is what I meant: If you do it this way, then you can't do envelope budgeting using subaccounts the way the original commenter said (and I agree with you that you should not do it this way).
Both the methods you propose involve significant work on my part, which to me means "Gnucash doesn't support it." For the first method:
> In this way if you overspend in one, and underspend in another, it all rolls up into the same total.
Arguably, this goes against envelope budgeting. The whole analogy is mirroring the physical world, where an envelope cannot go negative. In my envelopes, if one goes negative, then I need to move money from another envelope into it immediately. In your first scenario, since you're using real accounts, we should not do that (otherwise we lose real spending habits data).
Your second approach is closer, but it's a fair amount of work (or perhaps I misunderstood it). Using my example above, if I go to the store and spend $60 on groceries, $30 on supplies and $10 on misc, how do you propose I put that in Gnucash using those liability accounts?
There's always some way to hack it, but when you actually do it for a while, those hacks become tedious. As I said in another comment, the mechanics of envelope budgeting are easy to code, and I'd like the SW to handle those details for me.
I did play with the built-in budget tool. It's like the typical budget tool in most such SW: No carryover of excess budget - you have to manually track it and update it each month.
> Arguably, this goes against envelope budgeting.
Sort of. At least it would give you a monthly total of everything and a roll up of everything, but doesn't handle carry over cleanly. I was suggesting it as a way that works for lots of people but fair enough if it doesn't' fit close enough.
> Your second approach is closer, but it's a fair amount of work (or perhaps I misunderstood it)
It would look like this: Your salary comes in, and instead of matching that transaction to "income" you would split it against a bunch of "envelope" accounts, each however much you want per check. If you use liability accounts (e.g. like an accounts payable account) for this they will count "backwards". This is exactly analogous to envelopes, except that nothing (other than you) stops you from going negative. You can move funds between them whenever you want.
Then when you spent your $100 check you would split that transaction also, and apply the 60/30/10 each to its own account. These carry over of course, so if you don't spend it all this month you'll have extra next month, etc.
Sort of. At least it would give you a monthly total of everything and a roll up of everything, but doesn't handle carry over cleanly. I was suggesting it as a way that works for lots of people but fair enough if it doesn't' fit close enough.
> Your second approach is closer, but it's a fair amount of work (or perhaps I misunderstood it)
It would look like this: Your salary comes in, and instead of matching that transaction to "income" you would split it against a bunch of "envelope" accounts, each however much you want per check. If you use liability accounts (e.g. like an accounts payable account) for this they will count "backwards". This is exactly analogous to envelopes, except that nothing (other than you) stops you from going negative. You can move funds between them whenever you want.
Then when you spent your $100 check you would split that transaction also, and apply the 60/30/10 each to its own account. These carry over of course, so if you don't spend it all this month you'll have extra next month, etc.
Where do you live where grocery stores accept checks?
> Where do you live where grocery stores accept checks?
Are you in Europe? I hear it's unusual there. In the US virtually every store will accept a check. There are still stores that will not take any card. And some stores that will take a a debit card but not a credit card. But they'll all pretty much take checks.
Are you in Europe? I hear it's unusual there. In the US virtually every store will accept a check. There are still stores that will not take any card. And some stores that will take a a debit card but not a credit card. But they'll all pretty much take checks.
I lived in the US for 26 years and never witnessed anyone pay with a check at a grocery store or other similar retail establishment past the mid 2000s. I assumed they were no longer accepted?
Most people will pay with either cash or card because it's more convenient. But I haven't heard of anyone that refused a check, unless it's a rather large transaction and they're concerned a check will bounce. I myself used checks and not cards for a bunch of years.
Not out of the box, but easy enough to set up whatever scheme you would like. You can set up virtual asset accounts, or you can constrain things with liability accounts, etc.
Your gnu cash article doesn't contain any screenshots so I'm sure you've spared us the horrors of looking at it but I feel like I can't trust you. I'll have to suffer through this myself, just to make sure.
The original article did have a few screenshots, if I remember correctly. The original host of the article, however, is long gone.
Yes; this. I also have no idea how other people pay any bills without a system like this.
I hope this isn't crass, but many people 1) set up automatic billpay and then 2) get out of living paycheck-to-paycheck. That combination along with some financial restraint is enough to skip complicated budgeting systems.
> I hope this isn't crass
Eh, a little bit. I know for me, I was always afraid of using autopay because I get paid biweekly, so even if all my bills had the same due dates every month, payday was always different every month. Being able to tuck that money away made it less tempting to overspend.
As for getting out of living paycheck-to-paycheck, again, easier said than done. You're basically making the opposing higher minimum wage argument: "Get a better job if you want to make more than $8 an hour." "Get a better job if you want to have better control of your finances."
Plus there have been several studies showing that for many people, as their income goes up, they still have trouble saving because they unconsciously think that since they make more money, they have more money to spend. "Financial restraint" is easier said than done for many people, myself included. Simple's "Safe-to-Spend" has made a world of difference in my life and I'm honestly really concerned about how I'm going to keep it up when that goes away.
Eh, a little bit. I know for me, I was always afraid of using autopay because I get paid biweekly, so even if all my bills had the same due dates every month, payday was always different every month. Being able to tuck that money away made it less tempting to overspend.
As for getting out of living paycheck-to-paycheck, again, easier said than done. You're basically making the opposing higher minimum wage argument: "Get a better job if you want to make more than $8 an hour." "Get a better job if you want to have better control of your finances."
Plus there have been several studies showing that for many people, as their income goes up, they still have trouble saving because they unconsciously think that since they make more money, they have more money to spend. "Financial restraint" is easier said than done for many people, myself included. Simple's "Safe-to-Spend" has made a world of difference in my life and I'm honestly really concerned about how I'm going to keep it up when that goes away.
Let’s say your phone breaks. Can you afford to buy a replacement today? Where will that money come from? Or you’re out somewhere and see something you want, say an Aeron chair for $150, a great deal. Can you afford to get it? Safe-to-spend is how we had relied on knowing that we could buy something and all of our necessities would already be covered.
T-Mobile has phones as cheap as $150 (admittedly probably not great but still work), and quality phones as low as $400 or $500 for lower end or older iPhone/Pixel models. If you don't know if you can spend $150-$500 for a minor emergency, then you don't have an emergency fund which is easily the #1 priority for personal finances. Same for the Aeron - if you don't know if you can afford a $150 chair, you shouldn't buy it. The amount of the sale is irrelevant by the way - buying something you don't need that is 90% off is still a waste of money.
I don't think you're arguing in good faith. Making a throwaway account just to talk down to other people mourning the loss of their financial planning tool is a pretty shitty thing to do.
I can see how that would be a useful system. My approach/mindset is totally different. Instead I maintain a 1 year emergency fund in my checking account. If something important breaks (e.g. phone), I know I can replace it. Every month or so, I look to make sure I’m not drawing down my account balance. If I am, I mentally calibrate to spend less money on takeout, clothes, etc. If instead my balance is going up, I skim off excess money into an investment account.
If you take control of your finances in other ways, this system just isn't necessary. Set up automatic bill pay, set up recurring deposits into savings and investment accounts, use credit cards with the best rewards to pay for things (set to be fully paid off automatically every month), and then spend within your means so you don't live paycheck to paycheck. I suppose that last one is the thing that envelope budgeting/mental accounting is attempting to solve, but the problem is that it isn't actually solving the root cause. Spending smarter or at least not spending frivolously can free you from managing 25 different spending categories every day/week/month.
Setting up automatic bill pay and recurring deposits reduces the time needed to manage your money (probably), but it doesn't really help with following a budget.
Probably a lot of us on HN can get by without a budget, because we are generally highly paid, so just keeping spending within reason is all it takes.
If you actually need to budget, then it would be nice to have tools to remind you that you've spent all your X money for the month/year, so either no more of that, or you need to adjust the budget.
Probably a lot of us on HN can get by without a budget, because we are generally highly paid, so just keeping spending within reason is all it takes.
If you actually need to budget, then it would be nice to have tools to remind you that you've spent all your X money for the month/year, so either no more of that, or you need to adjust the budget.
That's fair, and I hope I don't come across as crass or overly privileged, but the problem is still _what_ you are spending the money on. I could make $250k/year, budget to spend every penny, and still live paycheck-to-paycheck. That is a recipe for disaster for when a real emergency arises. Having an emergency fund is the #1 goal for personal finance, and reduces the severity of a lot of other issues like slightly overspending in a category one month.
Two things:
- Monzo and Revolut are better products
- they discriminate against permanent residents who are not citizens (you can’t use their service)
So from my point of view: heh
- Monzo and Revolut are better products
- they discriminate against permanent residents who are not citizens (you can’t use their service)
So from my point of view: heh
Revolut is like dealing with a shady loan shark dude that hangs out in an amusement arcade. One day he tells you one story, you can't get hold of him for a while, he sends you texts promising fantastic things and big discounts, then you track him down and the story has changed.
Dear HN crowd, don't waste your time and money with the sharks at Revolut, and be doubly wary of working for them.
Dear HN crowd, don't waste your time and money with the sharks at Revolut, and be doubly wary of working for them.
To elaborate, Monzo has this envelope feature by allowing you to create "pots" and then set "Pay from this pot" for any recurring payments. I have separate pots for rent/bills/car. It also has a "Salary sorter" that will split your salary into the pots when you get paid (you just have to approve it).
None of that is available in the USA yet, but something to look out for if there isn't currently a US alternative.
None of that is available in the USA yet, but something to look out for if there isn't currently a US alternative.
FWIW, I tried to sign up for Revolut in US and was not able to proceed because I'm a TN Visa holder, and they don't have an option to use foreign passport + I94 to verify status like every other bank I've signed up for does. Contacted support as well and they couldn't do anything about it.
Was a pretty disappointing experience for a supposedly forward-thinking bank.
Was a pretty disappointing experience for a supposedly forward-thinking bank.
it’s not really helpful to provide UK banks as an alternative to a US bank
Revolut is in the US
https://blog.revolut.com/revolut-launch-united-states/
Monzo is launching in the US but got held up by the pandemic. https://monzo.com/usa/
Monzo is launching in the US but got held up by the pandemic. https://monzo.com/usa/
Ahh, silly me. I actually knew this, but was still locked into "UK only".
There is already a good Simple alternative called Envel.ai I believe. Its based on the same envelope system (hence Envel..) and has a more advanced budgeting engine...
Cash is fungible, it doesn’t matter where you put it. You’re also forgoing 1.5% cash back by not using a credit card and paying it off in full every month.
Check out Qube Money, they seem early stage but functioning. Once you sign up you can request to be in their Facebook beta testers group which is active.
Sofi money has something called "vaults" they just launched which may be the same thing. May be worth checking out.
I think there is a good simple alternative called Envel. Does the envelope budgeting but works a bit better I believe..
I believe Ally does this same thing?
Was this maybe a BBVA feature? Azlo did this as well and referred to them as envelopes.
sadly, they are also being shut down!
you can ask to split paycheck direct deposit into 10 different checking accounts, if you in US at least.
the parent literally typed that they used to do just this, didn't have to anymore thanks to Simple, and didn't want to go back.
I'm also a bummed Simple customer and they made it so easy to set up buckets for literally anything with zero overhead, which encouraged a ton of saving from me.
I'm also a bummed Simple customer and they made it so easy to set up buckets for literally anything with zero overhead, which encouraged a ton of saving from me.
How long have you been a customer? Do you feel it's changed your habits to the point where you wouldn't need to rely on software to save (other than spreadsheets)? (I totally understand your point about the "zero overhead" - that is really appealing)
Not the person you're asking, but I've been a Simple user since 2016.
When I started, I was diligenty using the savings goals. I had a goal for a car, a house down payment, cell phone upgrade, etc.
Eventually as my account and goals grew, I found it to be stupid to leave so much uninvested. I just kept a mental note to keep my balance at around $15-20k, transferred everything else to my brokerage.
When I started, I was diligenty using the savings goals. I had a goal for a car, a house down payment, cell phone upgrade, etc.
Eventually as my account and goals grew, I found it to be stupid to leave so much uninvested. I just kept a mental note to keep my balance at around $15-20k, transferred everything else to my brokerage.
I don't know how many Simple employees are in this thread. I'm very sad to hear this news, and I'm sure you were too. Just want you to know that you all made a really meaningful difference in the lives of at least my wife and I. Before I switched to Simple, I had a really hard time budgeting for things/planning for expenses, and was frequently toeing the line of overdrawing my account. I was essentially financially illiterate.
Simple made it incredibly easy for me to get my shit together and start being proactive with my money, so there was really no excuse to not do so. Now, my wife and I are well on our way to an early payoff on our mortgage (~18 years early), paying off our vehicle loans early (~2 years early), having a pretty good safety net in the bank, and being otherwise debt free.
So if you haven't heard it above the sadness of losing Simple: thank you. Seriously, thank you. You really did something great and you should all be proud of what you've accomplished.
Simple made it incredibly easy for me to get my shit together and start being proactive with my money, so there was really no excuse to not do so. Now, my wife and I are well on our way to an early payoff on our mortgage (~18 years early), paying off our vehicle loans early (~2 years early), having a pretty good safety net in the bank, and being otherwise debt free.
So if you haven't heard it above the sadness of losing Simple: thank you. Seriously, thank you. You really did something great and you should all be proud of what you've accomplished.
I'd like to add to this. I used simple for a couple years back when it was first released, and it helped immensely in getting out of debt and on the right track. I've since moved on to other banks (at the time there were no joint accounts or savings, and I needed both), but I had friends reach out to me today in a panic because I'd recommend they use it over the years.
It was an excellent tool that absolutely improved my life and the lives of others I know personally.
Well done.
It was an excellent tool that absolutely improved my life and the lives of others I know personally.
Well done.
I never used or heard of Simple. What do they do to make people manage their finances wiser?
They had a way to set money aside for goals. The money would be in your account but it would not show up in the available balance. So you could say, I want to buy this expensive thing, put in the amount you want to save towards it per month and the available balance would hide the money for you until you spent it.
That’s f’ing brilliant. Everyone is pretty good at stopping when out of money but if you can see it right there in a savings account the temptation to transfer can be strong.
This. 100%. The best I could do before switching to Simple was putting about half my paycheck in a savings account in another bank that I had no other accounts with and using that to pay my rent and maybe a few other bills. I was still always overdrawing my checking account at my main bank. I would occasionally have to go to the other bank, withdraw cash and drive over to the main bank to deposit it. Luckily, that bank didn't have any branches near where I worked, so I either had to wait 3 days for an online transfer or do my "shame banking" as my SO called it on my work from home day or Saturday morning. Simple's "Safe-to-Spend" is really a game changer for people like me.
I've used Simple since they became available on Android. At the time I had an account with Wells Fargo, but it was just a nightmare. I was working minimum wage, more or less paycheck to paycheck. I had been burned several times by those predatory overdraft fees, and they had started to introduce minimum balance fees.
Switching to Simple was a breath of fresh air. I didn't have to worry about any of those fees anymore. I could look at their tiny list of possible fees and know what to expect rather than having to deal with the nightmare of poor information that I had before. They saved me so much money, and helped me get out of the paycheck-to-paycheck spiral.
Like you the budgeting feature have been incredibly powerful for me too. Being able to hide away money without risking an overdraft or declined payment was a game changer.
Now I find myself in a very unfortunate position where I'm not even in the states so I'm not sure how I'm going to manage a switch to somebody else.
Switching to Simple was a breath of fresh air. I didn't have to worry about any of those fees anymore. I could look at their tiny list of possible fees and know what to expect rather than having to deal with the nightmare of poor information that I had before. They saved me so much money, and helped me get out of the paycheck-to-paycheck spiral.
Like you the budgeting feature have been incredibly powerful for me too. Being able to hide away money without risking an overdraft or declined payment was a game changer.
Now I find myself in a very unfortunate position where I'm not even in the states so I'm not sure how I'm going to manage a switch to somebody else.
Chiming in as a happy Simple user too. Always thought their customer service was top notch.
Depending on your mortgage interest rate, have you considered continuing the 18 years and investing your extra cash in index funds? Market returns ~10% over 20 years, so if your mortgage is 6% or less it's in your best 'interest' to continue.
Financially this makes sense. But for me, I’m sitting in a house that’s paid off. If I lose my job (or have to quit for medical reasons) and I can’t get a new job, I’ve got shelter. I can live Indefinitely where I am right now just paying utilities and property tax. Granted there is the reality of things just break on houses and require $$$.
Maybe it isn’t the best strategy. But there’s a nice feeling to know that I’ll have my house even if something bad happens.
And by bad I mean less than societal collapse. All bets are off in that situation.
Maybe it isn’t the best strategy. But there’s a nice feeling to know that I’ll have my house even if something bad happens.
And by bad I mean less than societal collapse. All bets are off in that situation.
If you have the discipline to pay off a house you can easily create a stock portfolio. The only important advice is to stop staring at the charts for too long. If you are an investor you derive zero value from it. Your decision to sell should not be driven by the market. It should be driven by personal goals.
Totally agree. I was replying more about why I chose to pay off my house vs. sitting in a mortgage for X more years so that I can put more money into the market.
During the time I was paying off my house, I did put money into the market. I just prioritized money going towards the house. Now that the house is paid off, all that prior mortgage payment money is going into the market.
During the time I was paying off my house, I did put money into the market. I just prioritized money going towards the house. Now that the house is paid off, all that prior mortgage payment money is going into the market.
This is good advice. A 30 year mortgage is like 2.8% right now, after taxes maybe 1.8%. The stock market over any 18 year time period (after taxes) will return higher than 1.8%. Adding to that, liquidity - having money in the bank provides flexibility, having equity in the house is nearly inflexible.
It could be because I’m Australian or perhaps I’m just unfamiliar with mortgages - how does tax affect the effective loan rate?
As an Australian that's dealt with the US bank/tax systems:
* Mortgages in the US traditionally are 30 year fixed rate.
* Mortgages are deductible from federal income tax up to a certain value
* People in the US have trouble understanding things that Australians are used to, like: variable rate mortgages, fixed/variable rate mortgages, redraw accounts, lines of credit mortgages, which all Aussie lenders offer.
On the other hand, as an Aussie I was confused by:
* People still writing cheques (checks). Like, really? On paper and stuff? Haven't written a cheque in Australia since 2000 and the only time I see it is the "CHQ" button on an EFTPOS.
* Contactless credit cards are only just a thing and people don't have PINs, they still stick their card in, or swipe (?!?) and sign.
* There's no such thing as EFTPOS which goes direct to your account, there are Visa/MC debit cards that work in the field like credit cards, but you can overdraw and get fees charged.
* Discounts for cash are still a thing because the CC charge isn't available. People get things like cash back on their spend, but then pay more for the card in the first place.
* Everyone worries about their credit score that changes in magical ways depending on different weird spending rules that have incentives for taking on debt but only in certain patterns that they won't tell you.
* Mortgages in the US traditionally are 30 year fixed rate.
* Mortgages are deductible from federal income tax up to a certain value
* People in the US have trouble understanding things that Australians are used to, like: variable rate mortgages, fixed/variable rate mortgages, redraw accounts, lines of credit mortgages, which all Aussie lenders offer.
On the other hand, as an Aussie I was confused by:
* People still writing cheques (checks). Like, really? On paper and stuff? Haven't written a cheque in Australia since 2000 and the only time I see it is the "CHQ" button on an EFTPOS.
* Contactless credit cards are only just a thing and people don't have PINs, they still stick their card in, or swipe (?!?) and sign.
* There's no such thing as EFTPOS which goes direct to your account, there are Visa/MC debit cards that work in the field like credit cards, but you can overdraw and get fees charged.
* Discounts for cash are still a thing because the CC charge isn't available. People get things like cash back on their spend, but then pay more for the card in the first place.
* Everyone worries about their credit score that changes in magical ways depending on different weird spending rules that have incentives for taking on debt but only in certain patterns that they won't tell you.
Mortgage interest on your primary residence is tax deductible.
Assuming you itemize. For married couples, the standard exemption is $24k. Very few people well end up actually needing to itemize to deduct more than the standard exemption.
Market returns are not guaranteed, unlike a fixed mortgage rate.
Sure, but the return on paying off a 3.5% mortgage, after interest tax deduction is maybe 2.5% which adjusted for inflation is ~0 to 0.5%.
You can. Only deduct (married) if you pay more than 10-15k of interest a year? Or am I missing something (itemized deductions is now at 20k limit or so).
Edit: and since you need to pay taxes on dividends in bank accounts, you would need something like 3.5-4% interest to match the gains from prepaying the mortgage at 2.75%?
Edit: and since you need to pay taxes on dividends in bank accounts, you would need something like 3.5-4% interest to match the gains from prepaying the mortgage at 2.75%?
Interest would never match it.
But ignore the interest deduction. Even if you got a 4% return and paid long term capital gains you’d be ahead.
But ignore the interest deduction. Even if you got a 4% return and paid long term capital gains you’d be ahead.
Inflation affects both in the same way and by the same amount. Ditto taxes, mostly. It's probably best and simplest to compare nominal returns.
Assume an inflation adjusted average return of 3% on your investment and a 20% long-term capital gains you end up with 2.4% return versus 0 to 1% for prepaying a mortgage.
The market does not return 10% of 20 years, you may be referring to some period of U.S. returns, and many experts do not expect it to return so well over the next 20 years.
Yeah, even though that 10% is net tax 8.5% (vs. the full 6%) it seems like one could refinance it down in future. Still, I don't think most payment terms are flexible enough to make them an indefinite loan (go interest-only).
Depending upon their tax situation, the loan rate may be effectively a little lower due to the tax deduction too, though. And, tbh, 6% is a really high mortgage now. Rates below 3% are common.
Yeah, when I last checked for a mortgage (4 mos ago), I was offered 2.8%
You can get 2.5% today with good credit. Rates just dropped again yesterday to a new all time low.
Mind-bending man. At this point, I should just intentionally pay PMI and sock the rest in the stock market.
I loved Simple for a long time -- I was one of the "beta" customers -- but I switched away from them over a year ago. I'd already been annoyed with them over something seemingly trivial; I go by my middle name and last name, not first and last, and want my credit/debit card to match that, reading "Middle Last". Everyone else allows me to do this and Simple did allow that... until we all had to migrate our accounts from Simple's original "banking partner" to BBVA. At that point they changed my name and refused to change it back after multiple go-rounds (which ended with a rep telling me "sure, we can do this, just fill this out," filling said thing out, and being told "we can't do that").
As with some other mentions here, though, it was killing the ability to have Simple send checks to payees that did it for me. I'd been waiting for years to have Simple be able to accept ebills (e.g., receive a bill from a creditor that specifies an amount to pay and paying that, rather than just paying a fixed amount every period), and they never did; instead they regressed.
But here's the thing: while I'd left Bank of America because Simple's app and design was so much better, I'd never closed my BoA account for the simple (ha!) reason that they could accept ebills and pay them out of my Simple account. This always left me with the niggling feeling that while Simple was better at technology and customer service, BoA was better at... well... banking. And when I checked out BoA after getting fed up with Simple, well, their app was still ugly and had bad UX design, but the functionality had mostly caught up with Simple. It even has goals built into it, if I want them. (I don't, and never cared about Simple's equivalent, so I can't compare the functionality.)
And while there are "bank things" I only do once in a blue moon -- deposit at an ATM, get a cashier's check -- it turns out it's nice to have a bank that, well, does those things. I know there are other banks (and credit unions) that do them, too, and I'm not suggesting BoA is particularly good (or bad) in this regard.
Simple was a promising idea, but I think they made a serious mistake by letting themselves be bought out by BBVA. And while I'd love to see someone else try again, I'm going to be a lot more reticent to move to a new bank just because it gives me a terrific mobile app experience next time around. Simple was a great technology company, but at the end of the day, I just don't think they were that great a bank.
As with some other mentions here, though, it was killing the ability to have Simple send checks to payees that did it for me. I'd been waiting for years to have Simple be able to accept ebills (e.g., receive a bill from a creditor that specifies an amount to pay and paying that, rather than just paying a fixed amount every period), and they never did; instead they regressed.
But here's the thing: while I'd left Bank of America because Simple's app and design was so much better, I'd never closed my BoA account for the simple (ha!) reason that they could accept ebills and pay them out of my Simple account. This always left me with the niggling feeling that while Simple was better at technology and customer service, BoA was better at... well... banking. And when I checked out BoA after getting fed up with Simple, well, their app was still ugly and had bad UX design, but the functionality had mostly caught up with Simple. It even has goals built into it, if I want them. (I don't, and never cared about Simple's equivalent, so I can't compare the functionality.)
And while there are "bank things" I only do once in a blue moon -- deposit at an ATM, get a cashier's check -- it turns out it's nice to have a bank that, well, does those things. I know there are other banks (and credit unions) that do them, too, and I'm not suggesting BoA is particularly good (or bad) in this regard.
Simple was a promising idea, but I think they made a serious mistake by letting themselves be bought out by BBVA. And while I'd love to see someone else try again, I'm going to be a lot more reticent to move to a new bank just because it gives me a terrific mobile app experience next time around. Simple was a great technology company, but at the end of the day, I just don't think they were that great a bank.
I'm in the exact same boat about my name. I have literally gotten up and left a physical bank when they refused to issue my debit card under "Middle Last" instead of "First Last". There's usually some BS about "the law requires that...", which prompts me to stop them mid-sentence and show them my AmEx and Visa that are titled "Middle Last".
No. Your setup may require me to go by an alias, but that's a quirk of your own shortsightedness and not a regulation.
No. Your setup may require me to go by an alias, but that's a quirk of your own shortsightedness and not a regulation.
Ya same here. The name issues, the killing of the ability to auto mail paper checks (bills), and seemingly over time extremely strict policies on everything from deposits, to addresses, Simple has already been going down hill for awhile.
Personally I have gone out of my way to submit polite and concise feedback, as I really wanted them to win. I used to be so happy here as a customer but inch by inch it had just become overwhelmingly unpleasant.
So over the last year I have slowly moved most of my banking to a competitor, and which as a whole is bigger and does have as smooth of a UX, but has been flawless with actual banking features. The support has made me feel like they actually want my business rather than being a nuisance to them.
It was good while it was good simple, I imagine running a bank is not easy, best of luck to everyone that was a part of it in their next venture.
Personally I have gone out of my way to submit polite and concise feedback, as I really wanted them to win. I used to be so happy here as a customer but inch by inch it had just become overwhelmingly unpleasant.
So over the last year I have slowly moved most of my banking to a competitor, and which as a whole is bigger and does have as smooth of a UX, but has been flawless with actual banking features. The support has made me feel like they actually want my business rather than being a nuisance to them.
It was good while it was good simple, I imagine running a bank is not easy, best of luck to everyone that was a part of it in their next venture.
> being told "we can't do that"
I've had similar experiences with other institutions. The explanation boiled down to KYC policies and some relationship to newer DHS Real ID regulations.
So, what used to be allowed, is no longer. This might be true everywhere.
I've had similar experiences with other institutions. The explanation boiled down to KYC policies and some relationship to newer DHS Real ID regulations.
So, what used to be allowed, is no longer. This might be true everywhere.
While I thought that might be the case, I got a credit card after this with my middle and last name. AFAIK, as long as the bank has both your true legal name on file and your preferred name on file, the card can be issued in your preferred name.
for whatever reason different names on credit cards slip through the regulatory cracks but the name linked to a bank account will not. the AML/KYC process is more regulated. frankly i think you are being a bit unreasonable given it's not like you actually changed your first name.
They made a $117 million exit when they sold to BBVA so maybe that was the time to jump ship cause they were no longer a start up and had to play by their new big bank owner's rules.
Same here. When the mail-a-check feature went away I switched back to the credit union. I still had that open because I couldn't set up a feature with simple.
I can’t find any details on BoA having an equivalent feature to Simple’s Goal. Do you remember what it’s called?
Never mind, it’s called Goals. It’s not a good replacement for Simple since it doesn’t have the Safe-to-spend feature.
There's a "Goals" section in my BoA app for my checking account which appears to let you set savings goals and target amounts. (I'll underline my "haven't tried it" disclaimer above, though! While I didn't use Simple's functionality for this, I recall it as being pretty well-designed, and design hasn't really been one of BoA's strengths...)
I've been a Simple customer since launch, and have used it as my primary bank since ING Direct was turned into Capital One.
It's mildly depressing to be reminded once again that the dream of startup founders these days isn't to build something, but to sell something... specifically to a bigger company. Which will inevitably delete the thing, once it serves its use. Which is to provide presence in some kind of defensive strategy.
I'm not sure what to use as my primary financial institution now. I have an account with my local credit union, but their app is mediocre. Simple's high quality app was the main reason I used Simple. I really just want an institution + app representation of such, that provides a 21st century experience.
It's mildly depressing to be reminded once again that the dream of startup founders these days isn't to build something, but to sell something... specifically to a bigger company. Which will inevitably delete the thing, once it serves its use. Which is to provide presence in some kind of defensive strategy.
I'm not sure what to use as my primary financial institution now. I have an account with my local credit union, but their app is mediocre. Simple's high quality app was the main reason I used Simple. I really just want an institution + app representation of such, that provides a 21st century experience.
I understand liking modern-feeling apps, but am more than happy to put up with the slightly old-feeling credit union app because they are just such a better institution - no bullshit fees, actually happy employees, far better rates on credit cards/loans... There's just no comparison.
I do have a commercial bank account, too, but that's just for access to quicker interchange with other commercial banks, when that's handy.
I do have a commercial bank account, too, but that's just for access to quicker interchange with other commercial banks, when that's handy.
My worry with most credit unions is that most of the ones commonly recommended have requirements for who can be a member, or are geographically tied. I'm unlikely to live in the same city for as long as I'd want to keep a bank account, and I'm not military or otherwise. Do you have a good recommendation for a CU that's more generally an option?
FYI: "Credit unions generally follow the principle of "once a member, always a member", which allows a member with a current credit union membership to remain a member even if they would otherwise no longer qualify to be such, such as leaving the company with whom they initially gained membership or moving outside the credit union's defined geographic area."
This is certainly true for the credit union I am a member of.
This is certainly true for the credit union I am a member of.
Moreover, credit unions seem to have good relationships with each other. I've never actually even seen a branch of the credit union I've been using for ten years in real life. But, if I need a notarization or to deposit a cheque, I can easily visit a branch of any credit union and they are usually happy to do it for me.
I've been hit with fines for my mistakes (transferring money out of the wrong account) but I've never paid them since they are always willing to remove them via a simple text chat. (I find text chats much easier than phone calls, too.)
I've been hit with fines for my mistakes (transferring money out of the wrong account) but I've never paid them since they are always willing to remove them via a simple text chat. (I find text chats much easier than phone calls, too.)
The majority of credit unions share a vendor that handles a lot of their logistics for them. That's one of the reasons why they're so accommodating about certain inter-credit-union transactions. It's a value added service of a shared vendor, who just pushes some numbers around in a database.
Yeah I think they use Fiserv and other major fintech players.
Can add more anecdata. Joined a regional credit union, moved across the country.
I can use the ATMs of the regional credit union in the new area for free if I need an ATM, and my original credit union has been more than happy to facilitate everything else I need via phone and email. And the "phone" agents are literally just the same staff I'd be talking to at the branch I opened the account at, not some call centre, so there's no real need to go in to actually get customer service.
On top of that, the accounts are completely free. I pay $0/mo for a handful of accounts (one for general monthly bills, one linked to my debit card, another for savings, etc) with unlimited transactions/transfers/etc.
The _only_ thing I'm missing is the ability to deposit cash. Which has yet to be any sort of issue for me.
I can use the ATMs of the regional credit union in the new area for free if I need an ATM, and my original credit union has been more than happy to facilitate everything else I need via phone and email. And the "phone" agents are literally just the same staff I'd be talking to at the branch I opened the account at, not some call centre, so there's no real need to go in to actually get customer service.
On top of that, the accounts are completely free. I pay $0/mo for a handful of accounts (one for general monthly bills, one linked to my debit card, another for savings, etc) with unlimited transactions/transfers/etc.
The _only_ thing I'm missing is the ability to deposit cash. Which has yet to be any sort of issue for me.
That's good to know. Obviously, with Simple, I was fine with not having a local branch, but I'd worry that signing up at a local CU and then moving, they'd just expect that I could come in to the local branch for things. I've had issues around that with my family even with larger banks, where they just assume that I can show up at a local branch to sign papers or such, and it's a big pain to get them to mail things, let alone let me transact online.
It's one thing to be online-only, it's another thing to have online, but expect everyone to live near a military base, or in a particular city.
I suppose I'll just bring it up when I apply!
It's one thing to be online-only, it's another thing to have online, but expect everyone to live near a military base, or in a particular city.
I suppose I'll just bring it up when I apply!
Yeah, I've only got experience with one Credit Union so I could just have a particularly good one or something, but I imagine given that they _don't_ have branches everywhere probably requires them to invest a little more heavily in figuring out how to do things without people being there in person.
My wife's still with one of the "big banks" and more than a few times has been required to go in for basic signatures and stuff (not even for new services, just like "we updated this thing you need to come sign it"). Last time I did something major with my Credit Union was to get a loan from them, and it was shooting them an email, they called me up and we hashed out the details, then they sent me over an approval and a docusign link and I signed it and the money showed up in my account.
I wouldn't necessarily say that I can "transact online" as such (like, it's not like there's a "loan" flow on their website) but they're certainly capable of figuring out how to get things done without me being there in person. I can only imagine with so many staff going remote and people being more hesitant to go places this past year they've only gotten better at it.
Only downside over the years has been that there's never been (and never will be) any sort of integration with any of the budgeting/etc services like Mint. No company is really gonna invest the effort to pick up the 100,000 members my CU has.
My wife's still with one of the "big banks" and more than a few times has been required to go in for basic signatures and stuff (not even for new services, just like "we updated this thing you need to come sign it"). Last time I did something major with my Credit Union was to get a loan from them, and it was shooting them an email, they called me up and we hashed out the details, then they sent me over an approval and a docusign link and I signed it and the money showed up in my account.
I wouldn't necessarily say that I can "transact online" as such (like, it's not like there's a "loan" flow on their website) but they're certainly capable of figuring out how to get things done without me being there in person. I can only imagine with so many staff going remote and people being more hesitant to go places this past year they've only gotten better at it.
Only downside over the years has been that there's never been (and never will be) any sort of integration with any of the budgeting/etc services like Mint. No company is really gonna invest the effort to pick up the 100,000 members my CU has.
I joined a CU in Utah in 2009 and have lived in California for a number of years. I've been able to get 2 car loans through them, a personal loan, and a credit card after being a non-resident of Utah. They've treated me well. The only thing I think people may have trouble with is home loans. I think those are pretty geographically tied.
I joined Navy Federal through a friend and am a member for life. Credit union employees are friendly people and put the humanity back into banking compared to Big Bank call center script readers in my experience.
That's a legally required quirk of credit unions; in order to get a federal charter/license to operate, they have to define a field of membership[1].
That said, I've never had a credit union bring up membership requirements post-joining, and have been able to both use existing accounts and open additional accounts at credit unions long after no longer qualifying for their field of membership.
A lot of credit unions even participate in shared branching[2], which lets you use the physical branches of one credit union to manage the account you have with another. Which comes in handy for the few things you can't use ATMs or online banking for, such as large transactions beyond ATM limits or depositing cash.
[1] https://www.ncua.gov/support-services/credit-union-resources...
[2] https://www.thebalance.com/co-op-shared-branches-how-custome...
That said, I've never had a credit union bring up membership requirements post-joining, and have been able to both use existing accounts and open additional accounts at credit unions long after no longer qualifying for their field of membership.
A lot of credit unions even participate in shared branching[2], which lets you use the physical branches of one credit union to manage the account you have with another. Which comes in handy for the few things you can't use ATMs or online banking for, such as large transactions beyond ATM limits or depositing cash.
[1] https://www.ncua.gov/support-services/credit-union-resources...
[2] https://www.thebalance.com/co-op-shared-branches-how-custome...
I joined the NASA Federal Credit Union. I joined the National Space Society, which cost about $20 and then I was able to join the FCU. Then I cancelled my NSS membership. Not a bad signup cost, plus space is cool so I didn't mind paying $20 to the NSS. I think the NSS also sent me a couple magazines, so it wasn't just like a donation.
Alliant
Plus 1 to Alliant. Their savings rate is top-notch and their apps are pretty good.
-1 to alliant. Had pretty bad experience signing up, they opened the account then closed them, had multiple errors in their website, support wasn't helpful at all.
That was a couple years ago, maybe i should try again
That was a couple years ago, maybe i should try again
Maybe I've just had bad luck but it seems like the credit unions I've tried are coasting on a reputation that is no longer deserved. Every one I have tried has behaved pretty much the same as any bank, except with worse apps, worse online banking, and worse ATM and branch availability. I can believe that there are great credit unions in the world, but I can tell you first hand that you can't just pick any random credit union and feel assured that they will be better than a major bank. Some of them are just as bad.
Former C1 employee: I would give Capital One another shot. Their tech and apps are best in class and and built in-house. They also contribute to the open source community (or did).
I beg to differ. Notifications for transactions stopped working. As I always do when things like this happen, I went to twitter and tweeted at them. They claim it works, yet replies on twitter beg to differ. They support people point me to a document that shows UI elements which have been removed.
Still broken. Still no word from them.
And there's the issue about financial software. A couple of years ago they stopped supporting what Moneydance uses. Basically, Cap One only supports Quicken. I would rather cut off my nose than use Quicken. I moved all my accounts to other banks after Moneydance stopped working. Problem is, my SO still has accounts there and the notification issue is a real problem, as she was not notified of fraudulent transactions due to their new bug.
Still broken. Still no word from them.
And there's the issue about financial software. A couple of years ago they stopped supporting what Moneydance uses. Basically, Cap One only supports Quicken. I would rather cut off my nose than use Quicken. I moved all my accounts to other banks after Moneydance stopped working. Problem is, my SO still has accounts there and the notification issue is a real problem, as she was not notified of fraudulent transactions due to their new bug.
I have been really frustrated with C1 not integrating with youneedabudget and Plaid-backed tools for quite a while now and intend to close my C1 credit account as a result. i know it's "as simple" as logging in to C1 and finding the transaction download tool but golly what a waste of effort.
https://support.youneedabudget.com/t/p8h6814/a-real-capitalo...
https://support.youneedabudget.com/t/p8h6814/a-real-capitalo...
> Notifications for transactions stopped working.
I get an email for every debit transaction on my account. I've had to update my inbox filters a couple time because they change the email they send it from, but it's been pretty reliable ever since I set it up maybe three or four years ago.
I get an email for every debit transaction on my account. I've had to update my inbox filters a couple time because they change the email they send it from, but it's been pretty reliable ever since I set it up maybe three or four years ago.
That's seems like a customer support issue and not software related but it's definitely frustrating. I use YNAB and their integration with C1 has been great so maybe push on Moneydance as to why that integration is no longer an option.
The website has a page changing the notification settings. It used to be there. It's not anymore. Their own documentation says it should be there. I've looked in the not very many places it could be. It's no where to be found.
I second this. I was an ING Direct customer who was rolled into a C1 360 account and it's honestly been great. It's just a consistently hassle-free experience. TBH, I mostly use a combination of Fidelity + Merrill Edge these days due to my particular cashflow management setup, but I keep my C1 360 account open for use every now and then. It's night and day between C1 360 and Chase, BofA, etc.
I've been really pleased with Capital One overall. The only thing that I wish could be resolved is that it can't be synced with You Need a Budget automatically.
If that syncing is done through Plaid (or maybe even if not), it might be fixed now. I use a similar product, Lunch Money, and syncing didn't work for a long time but within the past month it became possible.
It was indeed plaid, Capital One was doing some kind of BS blocking that was preventing any app that uses Plaid from being able to sync data from there.
On the off chance you or someone else knows:
How do I close old savings accounts in Capital One 360?
I used to have my savings split between several buckets, and now I just keep it all in one savings account, but I have four savings accounts with $0 in them because near as I can tell you aren't allowed to close them.
How do I close old savings accounts in Capital One 360?
I used to have my savings split between several buckets, and now I just keep it all in one savings account, but I have four savings accounts with $0 in them because near as I can tell you aren't allowed to close them.
You have to call them. It's the only way to close an old savings account in Capital One 360. It was relatively painless when I had to close my 4 buckets.
I want to be okay with Capital One, but the day I tried signing up for an account (a few years back), their entire application for applying (their application application) had a meltdown and their app crashed, etc, etc.
And then I thought, hmm, glad this happened before I had opened an account.
And then I thought, hmm, glad this happened before I had opened an account.
Capital One customer here! This is interesting to hear. Capital One's website is easily one of, if not the most annoying bank website I've engaged with in memory, inclusive of behemoths like BofA, regional banks, and a local credit union.
I was worried when ING Direct was bought by Capital One, but they never introduced any bullshit fees and seriously improved the app and website. So I've remained happy with them.
Their website for credit cards is my favorite of any I've tried. My least favorite by far was Chase when I had the Amazon-linked card.
May I present you with "US Bank"? Whose web interface looks like it was designed by an angry intern in 1997.
Then again, we're all sitting here reading on the minimal UI of Hacker News, so...
I find the Chase credit card interface to be pretty reasonable, but then again, I'm not logging into it every day.
Then again, we're all sitting here reading on the minimal UI of Hacker News, so...
I find the Chase credit card interface to be pretty reasonable, but then again, I'm not logging into it every day.
I use Ally, it's an online-only bank with a good website & app, and great customer service:
https://ally.com/
https://ally.com/
FYI Ally is just a marketing rebrand of GMAC, one of the financial giants involved in the 2008 housing crash. That alone makes me steer clear of them.
Well, there are some nuances you're skating over here.
Remember that GMAC Bank (the direct banking company) and GMAC ResCap (the mortgage/real-estate company) were two different entities owned by the industrial loan company GMAC. GMAC Bank was spun off as Ally Bank. Ally Bank (until 2014) was not even in the mortgage business.
I can tell you that as an actual customer of (the now former) GMAC Bank, I didn't feel like I got short changed in any way. They had good interest rates, and I'm glad they survived through hook, crook, and some TARP money (which was ultimately paid back with interest).
Just my perspective, it doesn't affect me in any way who you bank with.
Remember that GMAC Bank (the direct banking company) and GMAC ResCap (the mortgage/real-estate company) were two different entities owned by the industrial loan company GMAC. GMAC Bank was spun off as Ally Bank. Ally Bank (until 2014) was not even in the mortgage business.
I can tell you that as an actual customer of (the now former) GMAC Bank, I didn't feel like I got short changed in any way. They had good interest rates, and I'm glad they survived through hook, crook, and some TARP money (which was ultimately paid back with interest).
Just my perspective, it doesn't affect me in any way who you bank with.
I switched from Simple to Ally a few years ago and had 0 problems. I recommend them all the time.
Just curious: which financial giants were NOT involved in the 2008 housing crash? Serious question.
Was the GMAC that became Ally involved in mortgages? I thought it wasn't.
Their app can also be used for no-fee stock trades.
I'm a happy Schwab customer. Their app isn't what you would call simple, but you can do almost all your investing and banking there (I say almost because I own some physical assets) and they refund ATM withdrawal fees.
> they refund ATM withdrawal fees
Most importantly, they do this (as well as priority mailing replacement cards) globally. I have yet to find another bank besides possibly Fidelity's checking account (?) that does this with no stated limit. It's invaluable for those who travel abroad to have access to local currencies with no hassles and a refund of all fees.
Most importantly, they do this (as well as priority mailing replacement cards) globally. I have yet to find another bank besides possibly Fidelity's checking account (?) that does this with no stated limit. It's invaluable for those who travel abroad to have access to local currencies with no hassles and a refund of all fees.
I managed to get my Schwab debit card eaten by ATMs twice in one trip once, and Schwab was able to quickly Fedex replacement cards to addresses I provided in Thailand and Hong Kong. It stopped my trip from turning into a big headache - I was really impressed.
This is the huge advantage of Schwab over other options I've explored, especially if you are a US citizen but work abroad as a digital nomad. I like CapitalOne, too, but they could not FedEx a replacement card to me when my card got eaten because of what they claimed was a security issue. Schwab could! Also, Schwab's customer service is top notch.
In my case I lost my ATM card in mid sized city in Romania and they UPS or FedExed it over really quickly.
Plus the foreign ATM fee refunds and no foreign transaction fees. It's amazing.
Plus the foreign ATM fee refunds and no foreign transaction fees. It's amazing.
I'm also moving to Schwab mostly because my previous and current employer have stocks linked to that platform. TBH seems good enough for my use case (long term investing, mostly ETF)
You’re lucky! Schwab is fantastic, and I use it for all my personal banking and brokerage, but most employer 401ks have been through fidelity and others.
They even refund international ATM fees which is awesome. If you're an investor, their margin rates are usurious, though.
I think if you want favorable margin rates I'd still use Schwab for banking and M1 finance or IB for the stocks. M1 lets you use borrowed funds for whatever, at like 2% interest.
Yeah, I use IB so I'm sub-1% now. IB also lets you simply withdraw more cash than you have in your account so you can use it for whatever.
most bank do that, specially after you are over an amount in account.
The banks that do that, usually also have the worse investing options (e.g. Schwab, HSBC...)
The banks that do that, usually also have the worse investing options (e.g. Schwab, HSBC...)
> most bank do that
No, actually that is pretty rare. Getting unlimited domestic and international ATM fees reimbursed is not the norm.
> specially after you are over an amount in account
But that's just the point you're missing. Schwab does it at $0, not $1,000,000.
> Usually also have the worse investing options
Eh? Are we talking about the same company here? Schwab has an enormous array of investing options, given that their main business is that of a brokerage.
> HSBC
Also eh? When did HSBC become remotely competitive in the brokerage space? (And isn't HSBC winding down their US operations?)
No, actually that is pretty rare. Getting unlimited domestic and international ATM fees reimbursed is not the norm.
> specially after you are over an amount in account
But that's just the point you're missing. Schwab does it at $0, not $1,000,000.
> Usually also have the worse investing options
Eh? Are we talking about the same company here? Schwab has an enormous array of investing options, given that their main business is that of a brokerage.
> HSBC
Also eh? When did HSBC become remotely competitive in the brokerage space? (And isn't HSBC winding down their US operations?)
I started out on ING Direct as well, but I stuck with it through the Capital One transition. Overall I'm still happy with the checking/savings account features, no maintenance fees etc. The mobile app/website is pretty good. However the "desktop" website is annoying as it's just a scaled up version of the mobile one, but it still gets the jobs done. Unfortunately they've removed the ability to easily add multiple savings accounts for budgeting, or at least I can't find a way to do it. Luckily I still have the ones I created back in the ING days.
You can open multiple high performance savings account by going to the normal account application online. It has you login partway through the process and then adds it to your account
I started out on ING Direct and also liked the savings account feature. I created several saving accounts for when some website wants ACH routing information but I don't trust very much: I can put just enough in that account to cover the transaction I want covered.
I didn't realize that they god rid of the ability to add new ones. I guess I'll have to make do with the eight I have lol.
I didn't realize that they god rid of the ability to add new ones. I guess I'll have to make do with the eight I have lol.
It still works, it just isn't as seamless as before. Now you have to go through the "open account" flow, and half-way through you'll get an option to login and join an existing account, after that it is a couple of clicks.
Consider Fidelity’s cash management account. Great mobile UX, great financial product.
Can you speak a bit more about this? I actually have a Fidelity cash account open but I have no idea how to access it. I’m open to it though if I’m just missing something.
I use the Fidelity iOS app and fidelity.com, and also have a checkbook and ATM debit card for it. They reimburse all ATM fees, checks are free, and it’s trivial to move money between it and your brokerage, investment, and retirement accounts. They don’t support Zelle, so if you need that P2P instant payment functionally, you’re better off with Ally (I keep a high yield savings account at Discover Bank as a Zelle slush account).
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I cannot blame the founders. They worked hard and risked a lot and were successful so they want to cash out.
Here's a radical idea. Maybe if countries care so much about keeping markets competitive, they could buy out late-stage startups to allow them to keep operating independently.
In our case, Simple was at the end of its runway and desperately needed a buyer after our primary angel backed out. BBVA was there at literally the last second (as in, we may not have been able to make the next payroll). So yeah, it wasn't really about the founders wanting to cash out; they desperately wanted to keep the idea going.
What tricks should I, as a founder of a company, maximize the valuation of my startup at government acqusition time, which revolving-door ex-regulator consultant should I hire to make sure my i's are dotted and t's crossed on all of my applications (and how expensive are they), who in the bureaucracy should I make friends with to ensure the smoothest possible acquisition.
The obvious retort would be to mention the problems with state ownership/control of companies.
However maybe you have a model in mind that doesn’t result in control ending up in the hands of the government.
If so, I’m curious!
However maybe you have a model in mind that doesn’t result in control ending up in the hands of the government.
If so, I’m curious!
Government could buy it out and sell shares back to the public, sort of like an IPO, but with some conditions attached, so that it ensures the company remains independent for a specified number of years post IPO.
How would the price be determined?
Maybe that model doesn't work, but I wish there was some government oversight preventing huge companies from buying out small competitors just to shut them down entirely. Like Apple did with Dark Sky, Microsoft did with Wunderlist, and Twitter did with Vine. It's really unfortunate that we can't have much small tech.
It seems like that wouldn’t solve the problem, because it would take away some of the incentive to create small tech in the first place!
Or you could reduce the barriers required for companies to go public/IPO.
What has changed over the last 20 years in the US is how much more expensive / difficult it has been for a company to go public. A lot of that is a result in 'consumer protections' that came into place after the .com bust and the financial crisis, but as with every short sighted government regulation, it has unintended consequences.
What has changed over the last 20 years in the US is how much more expensive / difficult it has been for a company to go public. A lot of that is a result in 'consumer protections' that came into place after the .com bust and the financial crisis, but as with every short sighted government regulation, it has unintended consequences.
This isn't necessary. All the government has to do is block these acquisitions or shutdowns on simple antitrust grounds.
That would reduce the expected net present value of startups to investors, making it harder for them to get investment money in the first place and probably reducing the number of successful startups, acquired or otherwise. It's not obvious that this would be a net improvement.
Great, now there's even less reason to do a startup and it's even better to just take a FAANG job.
The GreenDot competitor to Simple, GoBank, launched around the same time as "the first digital / app based bank." It was corporate from the outset, but their partnership with WalMart seemed to reorient it into an internet based check cashing shop complete with cringeworthy "sweepstakes" offers for connecting your direct deposit. The product went downhill abruptly around that time, I still keep it around as an extra debit account so I get some ongoing visibility to the spiral. I have to call a special support number printed on my card, newer customers called the one on the website. The oft-promised chip supporting GoBank card still has not arrived for me, today, in 2020, despite their support promising me literally years ago it would be available in a month. It doesn't work with Apple Pay.
The app, which when they launched was one of the first decent bank apps, simply has disabled its most compelling features. You used to be able to peek your balance without signing in, the slider is still there but it doesn't do anything. Fortunately most other mainstream banks have great apps these days.
The app still lacks FaceID support. You can use FaceID only through the Apple autofill keyring.
And as I just Googled them to make this post, I see there will never be a chip card at all because GoBank doesn't offer a debit card anymore. Apparently GreenDot is powering payments at Uber and Apple Pay P2P now though, so good for them.
The app, which when they launched was one of the first decent bank apps, simply has disabled its most compelling features. You used to be able to peek your balance without signing in, the slider is still there but it doesn't do anything. Fortunately most other mainstream banks have great apps these days.
The app still lacks FaceID support. You can use FaceID only through the Apple autofill keyring.
And as I just Googled them to make this post, I see there will never be a chip card at all because GoBank doesn't offer a debit card anymore. Apparently GreenDot is powering payments at Uber and Apple Pay P2P now though, so good for them.
If you're a veteran or the child of a veteran, highly recommend USAA. Tech is fairly good (they had online deposit years before anyone else I was aware of) and the service is unbeatable.
My roommate is a USAA account holder. They are a bank that is willing to tell PayPal to pound sand when necessary, and they gain a ton of respect for that.
Unfortunately though, they have some kind of inane limitation on debit cards that don't let you have more than a certain number of pending transactions. And given that you generally won't know and never can control when a place that runs your card actually captures, it's led to some nasty surprises.
Unfortunately though, they have some kind of inane limitation on debit cards that don't let you have more than a certain number of pending transactions. And given that you generally won't know and never can control when a place that runs your card actually captures, it's led to some nasty surprises.
Any US citizen can get a USAA checking account, and it's quite usable with a decent Android app and the ability to easily transfer money around from different banks. Some of their other services, like car loans, are only available to members of the military, though.
Unfortunately they stopped letting non-veterans get USAA checking accounts several years ago. I only found this out when I recommended it on HN last year.
USAA is almost unbeatable for insurance, but I think Navy Federal has a much better banking experience.
There really needs to be consumer protections against software-EOL due to mergers/acquisitions, or google just killing things for no reason.
Any commercial software based service like this needs to be a contract with consumer society.
Any commercial software based service like this needs to be a contract with consumer society.
I also used simple and saw the writing on the wall a few years ago.
I’ve since moved everything to Fidelity and it’s probably the best option.
Their software could be better, but it’s good enough and the other options are worse.
I’ve since moved everything to Fidelity and it’s probably the best option.
Their software could be better, but it’s good enough and the other options are worse.
I also used ING Direct, and switched to Simple when it turned into Capital One. About three years ago, I switched from simple.com to ally.com, and it's been pretty great.
I'd suggest Bank of America if you have more than $100k in stocks or index funds that you can move to Merrill. That qualifies you for free ATM refunds, and gives you access to unlimited 2.6% cash back on all credit card purchases.
https://frugalprofessor.com/best-credit-card-rewards-strateg...
https://frugalprofessor.com/best-credit-card-rewards-strateg...
Oh that's a good one. Thanks for the tip.
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For what it's worth, Chase really stepped their design game up for mobile and responsive web. The weekly money insights report is a great summary of my overall banking activity. Check it out in the app store.
try radius
BBVA is also closing Azlo, the business bank that Stripe Atlas uses (used?) for LLCs. Looks to me like BBVA is attempting to annoy as many customers as possible.
I love Simple to death. They overnighted a cashier's cheque for me, for free, on holiday. They've been nothing but kind and I truly hate to see them go. I really really loved being a Simple customer.
I love Simple to death. They overnighted a cashier's cheque for me, for free, on holiday. They've been nothing but kind and I truly hate to see them go. I really really loved being a Simple customer.
This is so frustrating, just got the email from Azlo today, prompted to check by this comment. No messaging on the site on login, nothing. Goodness.
[deleted]
I'm also crushed.
Simple has been my only checking account since 2011. I think I learned about them on HN. The UI is snappy and slick and their support team have always gone above and beyond. They're really the model for what a checking account should be.
Simple has been my only checking account since 2011. I think I learned about them on HN. The UI is snappy and slick and their support team have always gone above and beyond. They're really the model for what a checking account should be.
I liked Simple’s UI and budgeting tools a lot, especially the “safe to spend” thing, but I don’t think running everything directly from a checking account is wise. It’s really better to have a credit card that you pay off every month, with solid fraud protection and rewards, and touch your debit card as little as possible. Simple’s snazzy software is not too useful when you do that. I ended up using a traditional checking account and YNAB.
Agreed in principle, but unless your credit is great, getting a card with enough of a limit to let you do this is almost impossible.
Wow. My credit card limit has been about 2x monthly income since I started working.
I just won a 5+ year battle with the credit bureaus regarding a fraudulent debt and have finally opened my first credit account. So, yeah, if only.
I've used Simple since 2014 and it's easily the best banking experience I have ever had. I've spread my spending and banking activity out over different banks/services over the years, but I always use Simple as my main bank. Honestly not sure where I will move my main account over to.
So many valuable businesses have been destroyed by investors or founders seeking an early exit.
If you are an entrepreneur, think very long and hard before you accept any outside money. I have seen so many good businesses forced to sell by investors or a founder who thought they were done, only to regret it later.
If you are an entrepreneur, think very long and hard before you accept any outside money. I have seen so many good businesses forced to sell by investors or a founder who thought they were done, only to regret it later.
False choice. Some of those destroyed businesses would have never existed without that very same investor capital
They took a $117 million exit and sold their soul to Big Bank. At least Josh doesn't have to worry about budgeting money ever again for the rest of his life despite his vision of bringing this functionality to the financially challenged masses all come crashing down in flames with this announcement.
I will never remain a user of a start up that sells their soul to Big Corp because of examples like Simple and being burned in the past so many times, I'm jaded.
I will never remain a user of a start up that sells their soul to Big Corp because of examples like Simple and being burned in the past so many times, I'm jaded.
Chime has been pretty good to me! I had a Simple account but Chime beat them to the punch by a couple weeks to become my main bank.
As an Azlo customer, I'm super bummed.
I think this is the weird case of BBVA closing their sort of B2B Banking business (underwriting?).
What annoys me more is that whatever BBVA has to "replace" Azlo (or presumably Simple) will likely be worse in every way.
I think this is the weird case of BBVA closing their sort of B2B Banking business (underwriting?).
What annoys me more is that whatever BBVA has to "replace" Azlo (or presumably Simple) will likely be worse in every way.
Probably some 24 year old McKinsey got staffed to do the merger integration on no sleep for days on end...this is what happens.
That's surprising to me, one time my card got blocked because I used it at (I guess?) a sketchy ATM. I called them but they had zero customer service outside of business hours. Opened up a Chase account after that.
Try out Novo
[1] https://banknovo.com
[1] https://banknovo.com
I have a very ordinary LLC and Novo rejected my application for no obvious reason, with no details whatsoever. I don't think I have anything unusual going on, so IDK how easy they actually are to work with.
Mercury is another option but my experience has been that some of their offerings are at best misleading (I would argue they're deceptive), and they can't do normal things like export a QBX statement to reconcile into Netsuite, you have to write your own stuff from scratch using their API.
Mercury is another option but my experience has been that some of their offerings are at best misleading (I would argue they're deceptive), and they can't do normal things like export a QBX statement to reconcile into Netsuite, you have to write your own stuff from scratch using their API.
(I am the ceo of Mercury)
We do have an export feature. Let me know what its missing (email in bio).
Also, what did you think was misleading? We try to be fairly straightforward and transparent with everything we offer.
We do have an export feature. Let me know what its missing (email in bio).
Also, what did you think was misleading? We try to be fairly straightforward and transparent with everything we offer.
Exporting -- unless I'm missing something, it's only possible to export a CSV for transactions matching a filter. For better or worse, QBO etc formats are the standard for importing a statement to reconcile and there's extra friction each month to import a CSV.
Misleading -- Tea Room (for us) does almost nothing which was advertised:
- Treasury was marketed to be available to everyone who isn't taxed as a sole proprietor. We're a non-profit, and found out after moving all our money that we weren't eligible. I asked support to clarify this, and it looks like they've removed /all/ information about eligibility from the site which is a small improvement I guess.
- There don't seem to be any startup deals for Tea Room members. There isn't anything on the page on the site for Tea Room.
- We haven't gotten any tea. (I don't actually care about that, but come on, it's in the name.)
We moved to Mercury because Treasury would have been immensely useful to us. In all other ways BofA is /fine/ and we would not have moved if it were advertised honestly. I think it's deceptive because none of this was obvious to us before we planned out a migration and wired the $270k over to get access.
Misleading -- Tea Room (for us) does almost nothing which was advertised:
- Treasury was marketed to be available to everyone who isn't taxed as a sole proprietor. We're a non-profit, and found out after moving all our money that we weren't eligible. I asked support to clarify this, and it looks like they've removed /all/ information about eligibility from the site which is a small improvement I guess.
- There don't seem to be any startup deals for Tea Room members. There isn't anything on the page on the site for Tea Room.
- We haven't gotten any tea. (I don't actually care about that, but come on, it's in the name.)
We moved to Mercury because Treasury would have been immensely useful to us. In all other ways BofA is /fine/ and we would not have moved if it were advertised honestly. I think it's deceptive because none of this was obvious to us before we planned out a migration and wired the $270k over to get access.
Thanks for the details Tyler.
Exporting - From my understanding the CSV format matches the QB specification. Are you saying that it matching the filters is an issue or that the format is incorrect.
Treasury for nonprofits - We only just launched Treasury (in December) and nonprofits are a relatively small part of our business so this hadn't come up during our alpha. I am going to investigate why our clearing house does not support nonpfotis, and make sure the restrictions is clearly stated.
Tea Room Deals/Perks - We recently launched this https://mercury.com/perks. Did you see this already and it doesn't match what you want or did you miss it?
Tea - We were revamping the tea packaging so it might be on pause right now. But we do really ship some pretty nice tea normally :).
The other thing that you get with tea room is free domestic + international wires.
Anyway, I can see why your experience was disappointing. I really appreciate the feedback and hopefully we can improve to deliver something better in the future.
Exporting - From my understanding the CSV format matches the QB specification. Are you saying that it matching the filters is an issue or that the format is incorrect.
Treasury for nonprofits - We only just launched Treasury (in December) and nonprofits are a relatively small part of our business so this hadn't come up during our alpha. I am going to investigate why our clearing house does not support nonpfotis, and make sure the restrictions is clearly stated.
Tea Room Deals/Perks - We recently launched this https://mercury.com/perks. Did you see this already and it doesn't match what you want or did you miss it?
Tea - We were revamping the tea packaging so it might be on pause right now. But we do really ship some pretty nice tea normally :).
The other thing that you get with tea room is free domestic + international wires.
Anyway, I can see why your experience was disappointing. I really appreciate the feedback and hopefully we can improve to deliver something better in the future.
Thanks for the response. (And for anyone else watching, he also DMd me on Twitter which was nice.) I didn't realize Mercury was a startup which makes the oversights more understa
I did not see the perks, thanks for clarifying that. They are not linked on the dashboard and homepage cannot been loaded when logged in.
And to clarify we don't use Quickbooks. QBO/QBX is a specific file format which most accounting systems expect when reconciling a statement. CSVs /work/, but require you to remap the fields manually which is tedious.
I did not see the perks, thanks for clarifying that. They are not linked on the dashboard and homepage cannot been loaded when logged in.
And to clarify we don't use Quickbooks. QBO/QBX is a specific file format which most accounting systems expect when reconciling a statement. CSVs /work/, but require you to remap the fields manually which is tedious.
Your accounting software doesn't support CSV templates? I had a similar issue with a different bank and in the reconcile feature you can pick the template (eg QBO, CSV, etc) and under CSV are the templates I made (along with stock templates for $BigBank). So I only made the template once with a little drag/drop page and was done. All subsequent imports are "one click" easy
NetSuite requires CSVs to be in a predefined format. No mapping options at all. [1]
(You might think "just don't use NetSuite" but most large companies are using NetSuite. Small-business accounting systems do not work well past a certain scale of transactions/purchasers/vendors/etc.)
[1] https://www.proteloinc.com/blog/import-online-bank-data-and-...
(You might think "just don't use NetSuite" but most large companies are using NetSuite. Small-business accounting systems do not work well past a certain scale of transactions/purchasers/vendors/etc.)
[1] https://www.proteloinc.com/blog/import-online-bank-data-and-...
Does it export in all formats likes he’s claiming it doesn’t? Can you point to documentation? Usually, and not always, when someone makes a shadiness it’s directionally hinting at someone.
We have a QB export compatible file. It's an export button on the top of our transactions page and has date, description, amount, status, bank description, reference and notes as column.
I don't think we have specific documentation of that feature, but I am happy to demo it. Our api documentation is here: mercury.com/api.
I am sure there is something specific Tyler was talking about. Would love to learn what it is so we can fix it.
I don't think we have specific documentation of that feature, but I am happy to demo it. Our api documentation is here: mercury.com/api.
I am sure there is something specific Tyler was talking about. Would love to learn what it is so we can fix it.
He specifically said Netsuite and not Quickbooks but to be fair thank you for responding and clarifying with detail.
The parent mentioned QBX statement, which is a Quickbooks format. Its a fairly standard format used across different accounting software.
Would definitely use app store rating as a proxy for quality of product over Trustpilot: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/novo-business-banking/id137555... -- 4.7/5 stars and 1.5k reviews vs 2.2/5 and only 39 reviews
For a banking provider? I would not trust either of these. They're both trivially gamed.
Just noticed their banner says, "Welcome Azlo Customers!" Pretty brilliant.
I switched from Simple to USAA, and have been really happy with their customer service. Their app sucks compared to Simple, though, but that’s probably true of 100% of banking apps.
I almost signed up for Azlo this week! I guess I dodged a bullet!
Ditto on Simple being a good bank!
Thanks to the countless folks that built a customer focused bank. It's really sad to see Simple wind down, and it's been the best bank I've had the chance to use. Their service has been unmatched compared even to the best local banks in my area. I've been a customer for nearly a decade now - wow. Early on I exchanged emails with Josh and the team not just regarding banking matters, but reporting bugs, design issues, or giving feedback. They were always receptive and I appreciated that they took the time to respond to my messages.
They had downtime once and credited my account $50. Simple, I know, but it was a gesture that really set them apart and humanized the company.
Thank you for starting Simple. Thank you Josh and the rest of the team at Simple: Shamir, Ian C., Brian M1, Toby, Adam, Rachel, Tom, Dustin, Zac, John, Ryan H., Melissa, Ian E., James, Liene, Collin, Matt S., Daron, Cameron, Eric, Jarred, Chris B., Shane, Dan H., Dan D., Robyn, Ryan D., Will M., Brian M2, Michael M., Chelsea, Kelly, Tristan, Will C., Justin, Steven, Matt W., Chris S., Charlie, Mimi, Orlena, Michael E., Krista, Bar, Jen, Matt H., Jake, Matt M.
:')
PS: Startup marketing tip - Add a call to action at the bottom of your email newsletter that reminds your customers to share their experience with their friends and colleagues. Here was Simple's:
> PS - We often have people ask how they can help us continue to grow. Firstly, you're awesome, thanks for asking! Secondly, Its easy–just tell your friends! In fact, you can even send referrals directly from our mobile apps.
They had downtime once and credited my account $50. Simple, I know, but it was a gesture that really set them apart and humanized the company.
Thank you for starting Simple. Thank you Josh and the rest of the team at Simple: Shamir, Ian C., Brian M1, Toby, Adam, Rachel, Tom, Dustin, Zac, John, Ryan H., Melissa, Ian E., James, Liene, Collin, Matt S., Daron, Cameron, Eric, Jarred, Chris B., Shane, Dan H., Dan D., Robyn, Ryan D., Will M., Brian M2, Michael M., Chelsea, Kelly, Tristan, Will C., Justin, Steven, Matt W., Chris S., Charlie, Mimi, Orlena, Michael E., Krista, Bar, Jen, Matt H., Jake, Matt M.
:')
PS: Startup marketing tip - Add a call to action at the bottom of your email newsletter that reminds your customers to share their experience with their friends and colleagues. Here was Simple's:
> PS - We often have people ask how they can help us continue to grow. Firstly, you're awesome, thanks for asking! Secondly, Its easy–just tell your friends! In fact, you can even send referrals directly from our mobile apps.
Why are so many people applauding their customer service? You can't even call them after 3pm PT.
It used to be amazing. You could start a real time text chat even in the middle of the night, and they were so helpful, professional and friendly, and followed up when they said they would. It was shocking and wonderful.
I'd agree with both sides of this. I was a customer for years and anytime I had an issue they'd respond very quickly. However, getting my wife to get an account approved so we could have the shared/joint account feature was impossible and they would never explain why.
I used and was happy with Simple from the very beginning, right up to the point they removed the check sending facility.
It wasn’t the removal of the facility itself that caused me to leave.
It was the utterly disingenuous statement from the CEO explaining the removal.
They got a lot of pushback on this, and ultimately the CEO wrote a defensive followup which was slightly more honest, but confirmed his original disingenuity.
If Simple had sold itself as a normal bank this would have been business as usual. Not good but not unexpected.
However their original sales pitch was all about how they were going to be more honest.
It’s worth noting that this happened soon after they were acquired by BBVA and had a new CEO.
It wasn’t the removal of the facility itself that caused me to leave.
It was the utterly disingenuous statement from the CEO explaining the removal.
They got a lot of pushback on this, and ultimately the CEO wrote a defensive followup which was slightly more honest, but confirmed his original disingenuity.
If Simple had sold itself as a normal bank this would have been business as usual. Not good but not unexpected.
However their original sales pitch was all about how they were going to be more honest.
It’s worth noting that this happened soon after they were acquired by BBVA and had a new CEO.
do you have any links to these statements? I was one of the very-upset users and I missed this.
The problem was assuming anybody, much less Silicon Valley, would be breaking the narrative of banks being honest institutions.
They really executed well on the promise up until the acquisition, which was why the change was so obvious and jarring.
I very much appreciated the straight talk at every level from their corporate communications to their support agents.
I don’t think it’s fair to be cynical about them in a more general sense.
It’s just a classic problem with the model of acquisitions, and a misaligned new CEO.
I very much appreciated the straight talk at every level from their corporate communications to their support agents.
I don’t think it’s fair to be cynical about them in a more general sense.
It’s just a classic problem with the model of acquisitions, and a misaligned new CEO.
You can't exclude the exit and say "oh, they changed the narrative". Because the exit is the whole point of embarking on making the business in the first place.
At least in other areas -- like say, solar energy or battery charging, the startup would have be left us with something had a tangible mark on society. Here, I don't see any of that. No lasting impact. No changed narrative.
At least in other areas -- like say, solar energy or battery charging, the startup would have be left us with something had a tangible mark on society. Here, I don't see any of that. No lasting impact. No changed narrative.
‘You can't exclude the exit and say "oh, they changed the narrative". Because the exit is the whole point of embarking on making the business in the first place.’
I agree that this is essentially a failure.
However, for many years they provided exactly the service they said they were going to provide.
As for ‘the exit is the point’. Maybe for those who controlled the stock, but definitely not for everyone involved.
And even for the founders, do you think this was the exit they planned on? I very much doubt that.
The end result is a bad one, but I don’t think you’ve made a case for being cynical in some broader sense.
I agree that this is essentially a failure.
However, for many years they provided exactly the service they said they were going to provide.
As for ‘the exit is the point’. Maybe for those who controlled the stock, but definitely not for everyone involved.
And even for the founders, do you think this was the exit they planned on? I very much doubt that.
The end result is a bad one, but I don’t think you’ve made a case for being cynical in some broader sense.
I've been a Simple customer for awhile and it's kind of a bummer and kind of a hassle that this is happening.
I became a customer many years ago while I was homeless and due to a string of incredibly bad luck and wildly poor decision making, I had been unable to open a checking account at any major bank. For whatever reason they gave me one.
Not having to walk 3+ miles to pick up cash from a Wells Fargo spot and having a debit card were literally lifechanging differences.
Nearly a decade later I'm in a much better place. Thanks, Simple.
I became a customer many years ago while I was homeless and due to a string of incredibly bad luck and wildly poor decision making, I had been unable to open a checking account at any major bank. For whatever reason they gave me one.
Not having to walk 3+ miles to pick up cash from a Wells Fargo spot and having a debit card were literally lifechanging differences.
Nearly a decade later I'm in a much better place. Thanks, Simple.
Not sure if you still have those marks on your record preventing you from opening a checking account, but basically all of the online banks do not check records to open an account (as of today.) So even with wrecked credit, a bad ChexSystems/EWS report etc, you can still get an account.
Perhaps this might also be useful for anyone reading this who is in a similar situation today.
Perhaps this might also be useful for anyone reading this who is in a similar situation today.
I'll be moving to another bank and I'm no longer in a position where I have to worry about stuff that happened back then. It's just kinda sad losing the bank that I've used for basic checking from living under an overpass all the way through home ownership. :(
Incredible moves, GG.
Of all the various banks I've seen today, One Financial was the best looking one. https://www.onefinance.com
Of all the various banks I've seen today, One Financial was the best looking one. https://www.onefinance.com
Are you here in Portland? I'd love to hear your story.
A while ago, I had a landlord who withdrew rent directly from my bank account[1] and who kept charging me rent after I had left. They also refused to return the money to me and insisted I file an ACH dispute through my bank, Simple. I was responsible for rent for me and my roomate, so being double charged rent for a month meant I was suddenly short two peoples' worth of rent.
Simple was super, super good about the whole thing. They gave me an interest-free loan for the whole amount and told me that if the dispute was successful (which it was), I'd just get to keep the loan. They also put an ACH block[2] on my account, and generally were super responsive in support.
Simple wasn't great for a lot of stuff you could expect from normal banks, like writing checks (for a while, you couldn't get a checkbook from them), cashier's checks, and money orders, but for everything else, they worked really well. I'm kinda sad to see them go.
[1]: I now know this is a bad idea. Always use a 3rd party or pay manually! [2]: ACH blocks are weak, but they're the only sort of protection against malicious actors like this. They prevent a specific amount of money from being withdrawn from a specific party, but there's no way to, say, block all withdrawal attempts from a party.
Simple was super, super good about the whole thing. They gave me an interest-free loan for the whole amount and told me that if the dispute was successful (which it was), I'd just get to keep the loan. They also put an ACH block[2] on my account, and generally were super responsive in support.
Simple wasn't great for a lot of stuff you could expect from normal banks, like writing checks (for a while, you couldn't get a checkbook from them), cashier's checks, and money orders, but for everything else, they worked really well. I'm kinda sad to see them go.
[1]: I now know this is a bad idea. Always use a 3rd party or pay manually! [2]: ACH blocks are weak, but they're the only sort of protection against malicious actors like this. They prevent a specific amount of money from being withdrawn from a specific party, but there's no way to, say, block all withdrawal attempts from a party.
> Always use a 3rd party or pay manually
Not sure what you mean by a 3rd party, but just a reminder that every check you spend contains all the info anybody needs to pull out arbitrary amounts of money from your account over ACH in the future. So if you've ever "payed manually" with a check, even if you've never set up automatic rent payments, your landlord could still do the same thing if they wanted to.
I find it infuriating that no financial regulators or banks have ever bothered to address this. Mailing a check is basically equivalent to sending your login information over plain http to a site that doesn't even hash passwords in their database. And the stakes are even higher than they are just about any online account you might have. But we're basically forced to do it all the time.
Not sure what you mean by a 3rd party, but just a reminder that every check you spend contains all the info anybody needs to pull out arbitrary amounts of money from your account over ACH in the future. So if you've ever "payed manually" with a check, even if you've never set up automatic rent payments, your landlord could still do the same thing if they wanted to.
I find it infuriating that no financial regulators or banks have ever bothered to address this. Mailing a check is basically equivalent to sending your login information over plain http to a site that doesn't even hash passwords in their database. And the stakes are even higher than they are just about any online account you might have. But we're basically forced to do it all the time.
> So if you've ever "payed manually" with a check, even if you've never set up automatic rent payments, your landlord could still do the same thing if they wanted to.
Well, that would be committing wire fraud. If I agree to automatic payments at least the landlord has an excuse that I had consented to such recurring payments.
Well, that would be committing wire fraud. If I agree to automatic payments at least the landlord has an excuse that I had consented to such recurring payments.
On your note [1] - could you explain more about using a 3rd party? I currently use auto-withdrawals, but it sounds like I should switch before I get in a bad situation like you mentioned.
As long as your landlord doesn't have your literal bank numbers, you are probably ok. If anyone has your bank numbers, they can initiate ACH withdrawals from your account, which is something I didn't know. There are protections on ACH transfers, which is why you can dispute things, but it also means a lot of your money could be in limbo for a long period of time, which is scary.
As for 3rd parties, most landlords I've had since use services like ClickPay and AppFolio (there are probably dozens, but those are two I've had the option of using with past landlords). They have automatic payment options, but they won't charge payments without your approval.
As for 3rd parties, most landlords I've had since use services like ClickPay and AppFolio (there are probably dozens, but those are two I've had the option of using with past landlords). They have automatic payment options, but they won't charge payments without your approval.
I’m really sad about this. It feels like when Google Inbox shut down. Like yeah, some other services will have similar features, but not as well-done. That’s gotten a lot of praise already, but what really made Simple special for me was the language and design they use, it was so so good. I’m so thankful that it existed, it really helped me learn to manage my money.
The linked thread has been removed by the moderators and the entire subreddit is locked.
You can view a backup of the original thread below (will take a few seconds to load).
https://www.removeddit.com/r/SimpleBanking/comments/ksize0/s...
Edit: Here is another article with the same information:
https://www.androidpolice.com/2021/01/07/simple-bank-is-shut...
You can view a backup of the original thread below (will take a few seconds to load).
https://www.removeddit.com/r/SimpleBanking/comments/ksize0/s...
Edit: Here is another article with the same information:
https://www.androidpolice.com/2021/01/07/simple-bank-is-shut...
Our local newspaper has also chimed in:
https://www.oregonlive.com/silicon-forest/2021/01/simple-por...
https://www.oregonlive.com/silicon-forest/2021/01/simple-por...
We've changed to that from https://www.reddit.com/r/SimpleBanking/comments/ksize0/simpl.... Thanks!
I spent four years working at Simple, there are a lot of great humans there. Please reach out if there is anything I can do to help.
As for the product, it was great to work on and there was so much potential simply left on the floor. Really a shame to see that none of that will be realized.
As for the product, it was great to work on and there was so much potential simply left on the floor. Really a shame to see that none of that will be realized.
Do you know of any alternatives to simple that have a similar awesome budgeting tool with "safe to spend"?
I don’t have much experience here. There are a lot of recommendations in these comments though.
Simple was a game-changer for our personal finances. We tried Mint but it was too much work. When I look for "alternatives to Simple" all I find are other online banks. What I want though is the budgeting part. Monthly expense allocation + safe to spend. Anybody here know of a good alternative to this?
YNAB is a good starting place youneedabudget.com
hledger.org and ledger-cli.org if you want more control
hledger.org and ledger-cli.org if you want more control
I got this email recently. I do find it sad. I really enjoyed using simple for how easy most things were.
They did eventually depreciate their mail a check feature, and they had some weirdness about being able to download a cancelled check of checks they sent.
I still have my account, and has planned to still use it, but with a lot of things becoming harder over time. (To use the check example, I had to email their support and wait several days to get copies of the checks)
I will switch back to using my local credit union more.
They really had such an easy and excellent service for so long!
They did eventually depreciate their mail a check feature, and they had some weirdness about being able to download a cancelled check of checks they sent.
I still have my account, and has planned to still use it, but with a lot of things becoming harder over time. (To use the check example, I had to email their support and wait several days to get copies of the checks)
I will switch back to using my local credit union more.
They really had such an easy and excellent service for so long!
Nothing in banking that is good and pleasant to use for clients ever lasts indefinitely. This is a business that can only survive on making customers’ lives miserable. I’ve been a Simple client for some time after closing PNC. It’s always been just “out of the way” and has never caused problems or cost me money unfairly. Which is why I’ve been waiting for them to either be acquired by a bigger, horrible bank or go under for some time.
I joined a long time ago when I was broke and they were one of the few online banks I found with no minimum balance or fees and had a good network of ATMs near me.
Then they stopped allowing me to send checks, so I had to open an account with another bank just so I can have checks when I need them.
Then in the few times I needed support, I couldn't get it. One time I tried to buy a car and was having trouble with the payment. I tried to call them and it turns out that their support phone line closes at 3pm PT! How is that acceptable?
I'm glad they're shutting down, because it'll get me to actually fully switch over to another bank, which I expect to be a lot of effort.
Then they stopped allowing me to send checks, so I had to open an account with another bank just so I can have checks when I need them.
Then in the few times I needed support, I couldn't get it. One time I tried to buy a car and was having trouble with the payment. I tried to call them and it turns out that their support phone line closes at 3pm PT! How is that acceptable?
I'm glad they're shutting down, because it'll get me to actually fully switch over to another bank, which I expect to be a lot of effort.
Posted about this when I got the email - I used and loved Simple - it helped me budget and save through UX decisions that worked with my psychology and their customer service was real people, real nice, real fast.
I also know people that have worked there that /loved/ it before the acquisition that said it went downhill culture-wise quick thereafter.
If you believe in your product and your people, getting hired by BigCo is almost never the optimal solution for actually growing your product, but I don't blame people for taking their exit checks.
(Some exceptions withstanding - MS seems to be doing a good job with GH so far for example)
I also know people that have worked there that /loved/ it before the acquisition that said it went downhill culture-wise quick thereafter.
If you believe in your product and your people, getting hired by BigCo is almost never the optimal solution for actually growing your product, but I don't blame people for taking their exit checks.
(Some exceptions withstanding - MS seems to be doing a good job with GH so far for example)
I had Simple from 2012 until 2015. I was buying a house and the unusual parts of the bank were making it difficult to get it done, so I transferred everything to a local bank. I remember liking it a lot at the time, but now I'm having a hard time remembering what set it apart. I think by the time I switched, most banks had all the features that made it unique.
Earlier today I opened an Axos account and transferred everything over to that from my Simple account.
Direct deposit, Venmo, Paypal, everything's now been switched to Axos.
Simple really helped me get a handle on my finances and turn my net worth black, so I'm sad to see this.
Direct deposit, Venmo, Paypal, everything's now been switched to Axos.
Simple really helped me get a handle on my finances and turn my net worth black, so I'm sad to see this.
Moved my budgeting from Simple to YNAB a few years ago, but still sad to see Simple go. I was a big Simple proponent for a long time (even wrote some hacky automatic goal transfer software[0] before they introduced Expenses). Hopefully the employees can carry the great UX spirit of Simple to their next endeavors.
[0] https://github.com/bi1yeu/simple-autogoals
[0] https://github.com/bi1yeu/simple-autogoals
What's your experience with YNAB? I use Mint for balances and USAA's forecasting tool to see the future, but I'm not terribly happy with either.
I use YNAB only for granular budgeting, not for big-picture or forecasting (for that I use personalcapital[0]).
At first I was skeptical of YNAB -- the idea of giving every dollar a job and tracking transactions down to the penny seemed hellish -- but I've since become a convert. I like having all bank account and card transactions in one place and having the budgeting decoupled from the institutions. The goal-setting features are great. And keeping a careful budget of all inflow and outflow has been pretty easy and makes it nice to set up lots of small budgeting buckets. After an initial setup, it feels like a machine that keeps my finances in order without too much intervention.
If you get into YNAB, also check out the toolkit[1], which gives some additional budget analysis and planning tools.
[0] https://pcap.rocks/matt1688 (includes my referral code)
[1] https://www.toolkitforynab.com/
At first I was skeptical of YNAB -- the idea of giving every dollar a job and tracking transactions down to the penny seemed hellish -- but I've since become a convert. I like having all bank account and card transactions in one place and having the budgeting decoupled from the institutions. The goal-setting features are great. And keeping a careful budget of all inflow and outflow has been pretty easy and makes it nice to set up lots of small budgeting buckets. After an initial setup, it feels like a machine that keeps my finances in order without too much intervention.
If you get into YNAB, also check out the toolkit[1], which gives some additional budget analysis and planning tools.
[0] https://pcap.rocks/matt1688 (includes my referral code)
[1] https://www.toolkitforynab.com/
YNAB is excellent. They have auto-importing, auto-categorization, geotagging transactions with the mobile app, and cool community-led addons (https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/toolkit-for-ynab/l...)
Check out lunchmoney.app!
I've been using it for the past year. It's clean, snappy, easy to use, and has VERY powerful categorization for anyone with a programmers mindset.
I used mint but it was too much work to keep the categories up. I looked at YNAB but it seemed too overbearing. Lunchmoney has been a really refreshing tool for me.
It's also a solo developer's project, they make regular updates, and it's a clean business model of a simple monthly fee.
If you use someone's referral link you get an extra free month after their trial. Here's mine: https://lunchmoney.app/?refer=kvy5xf49
I've been using it for the past year. It's clean, snappy, easy to use, and has VERY powerful categorization for anyone with a programmers mindset.
I used mint but it was too much work to keep the categories up. I looked at YNAB but it seemed too overbearing. Lunchmoney has been a really refreshing tool for me.
It's also a solo developer's project, they make regular updates, and it's a clean business model of a simple monthly fee.
If you use someone's referral link you get an extra free month after their trial. Here's mine: https://lunchmoney.app/?refer=kvy5xf49
Simple was one of the few US-based checking accounts that required US citizenship in order to open a new account (a Visa or a Green Card was not sufficient): https://medium.com/@bartclaeys/simple-bank-discriminates-aga... (this has only been an issue since BBVA acquired them).
Wow, this is heartbreaking. Simple was extremely instrumental in my budgeting success. Anyone have a bank similar with features like "expenses" and "goals"? I honestly can't imagine not being able to use simple for my savings anymore.
I will miss them. I remember getting a debit card and a thick piece of cardboard with a rubber band that you could use as a wallet. I still use that thing now.
ouch...the one bank with a really nice user facing app...hoping to hear more details
I've been working on the app for almost 8 years. This means a lot to me. Thank you.
I absolutely love "Safe to Spend". Best, most transparent feature I've ever been offered by any bank.
Great job on Simple. I am so, so sorry to see you go.
I'm also dying to know who you think your best competitor in UX is, because they're who I want to transfer my money to. I wouldn't have dreamed of asking if y'all were staying open.
Great job on Simple. I am so, so sorry to see you go.
I'm also dying to know who you think your best competitor in UX is, because they're who I want to transfer my money to. I wouldn't have dreamed of asking if y'all were staying open.
I was a Simple customer for years, and have tried many banks, including banks in multiple countries. Simple was hands down the best banking app I've ever used. You should be proud.
Love the app, it was the perfect fit for our method of family finances during a difficult time.
Having such a great user experience took some of the edge off. Grateful it was there for me.
Having such a great user experience took some of the edge off. Grateful it was there for me.
Second this. I've used the Android app for ages and it's always been a pleasure to use. As an Android dev myself I can really appreciate the performance and polish.
I'm sorry you have to see your work go like this. Best of luck to you!
I'm sorry you have to see your work go like this. Best of luck to you!
I've worked in native apps for 3.5 years. Your apps are amazing and set a great example to how we should make a native experience. I hope your talents are put to use in other projects in the future!
Speaking of which, if anyone needs someone with 10 years of native Android experience, DMs are open (check my bio).
Yes, great job on the apps although I must ask, why did the Android app never get a transaction search feature like the iOS and web apps have?
We did get a transaction search feature, it's been in the app for several years now.
Switched to Simple a few years ago and what you did really helped me get things under control. Many others here have expressed it, but you changed my life.
Absolute bravo. Thank you for supporting native platform features, your work was a shining example that others should strive to emulate.
Thank you so much! You helped produce an amazing product that really helps people.
I've never had a single complaint about the android app. Thank you
Thank you for your service! The app is really special.
As a customer, thank you for a wonderful experience! The app was the reason I kept using Simple.
App is amazing. I'm heartbroken I'm losing it.
Thanks from me also!
Simple is without a doubt, not even close, the best bank app I have ever used. Simple as a bank is probably one of the worst banks I have ever tried to deal with. I very regularly wish that their app was a layer on top of other bank accounts, such that I could view my Chase account but from the Simple app.
Unfortunately, their banking business (not the app) was their core business, and they were absolutely awful at banking.
Unfortunately, their banking business (not the app) was their core business, and they were absolutely awful at banking.
I (and I imagine a number of other people) would definitely pay for a high quality app like Simple as a layer on top of an old bank. Too many of these neobanks are missing something I need (Zelle, or they charge weird fees, or the debit card has a foreign ATM fee, or they have problems with checks etc)
I am a customer of Azlo, Simple, and BBVA.
Azlo has been consistently pretty good for my main business account; the only mixup I've had with them was entirely because BBVA is actually their underlying bank.
Simple was excellent while they were my primary account; I got married before they offered joint accounts, and so migrated away.
BBVA has been consistently awful to work with as a business bank. Unable to get online access working for a corporate account, I was stuck calling them every month to manually pay a line of credit or get dinged for a late payment. Their service reps are friendly, but unempowered to do much. All this for a side business--it hasn't been worth the effort. I really don't want to spend the time and effort migrating accounts _again_ but will do so if the conclusion of Azlo closing is to just drop us all into BBVA's system.
The best I can say for BBVA is that they're less bad to work with than BoA and Wells Fargo.
On the personal banking side, Schwab has treated me extremely well for years; I have no complaints. They feel like the Amex of bank accounts.
Azlo has been consistently pretty good for my main business account; the only mixup I've had with them was entirely because BBVA is actually their underlying bank.
Simple was excellent while they were my primary account; I got married before they offered joint accounts, and so migrated away.
BBVA has been consistently awful to work with as a business bank. Unable to get online access working for a corporate account, I was stuck calling them every month to manually pay a line of credit or get dinged for a late payment. Their service reps are friendly, but unempowered to do much. All this for a side business--it hasn't been worth the effort. I really don't want to spend the time and effort migrating accounts _again_ but will do so if the conclusion of Azlo closing is to just drop us all into BBVA's system.
The best I can say for BBVA is that they're less bad to work with than BoA and Wells Fargo.
On the personal banking side, Schwab has treated me extremely well for years; I have no complaints. They feel like the Amex of bank accounts.
I loved simple, have used them for ~10 years, and gotten 5+ people in my circle to use them, they were the greatest. But at a certain point simple's budgeting system breaks, once you have another card. I would make payments per transaction on my CC to maintain that tagging data within Simple for reporting.
For years I was left unsatisfied with a tool that managed expenses with multiple cards and I found it half a year ago in CoPilot: https://copilot.money
Great app and handles internal transfers (ie payments to a card or another account) with grace. Smart rule system, recurring transactions, etc. Mint on steroids. Highly recommend for people like me looking for tools to replace simple.
Note: I am in no way affiliated with CoPilot, just found them super useful for that function as Simple wasn't hitting it.
Shameless referral code for a free month: 7UWQ7W https://copilot.money/link/cXPAZ3zJ3QT2N4LS6
For years I was left unsatisfied with a tool that managed expenses with multiple cards and I found it half a year ago in CoPilot: https://copilot.money
Great app and handles internal transfers (ie payments to a card or another account) with grace. Smart rule system, recurring transactions, etc. Mint on steroids. Highly recommend for people like me looking for tools to replace simple.
Note: I am in no way affiliated with CoPilot, just found them super useful for that function as Simple wasn't hitting it.
Shameless referral code for a free month: 7UWQ7W https://copilot.money/link/cXPAZ3zJ3QT2N4LS6
I didn't even know about this bank, but based on the comments, seems to have had a major impact on people's lives.
I essentially do what Simple provides on my own, but realize that takes radical discipline. Not everyone has that, but sounds like Simple "hacked" people's habits towards saving. I consider that a "super power" so I'm sad to hear they're closing.
I direct deposit to two HYSA accounts in the same bank. One is my "current expenses" account and represents my projected expenses/budget for the month. The second is my "long term" account that represents savings for long term goals. At the end of each month, if there's money left in the current account, I move it over to the long term. The long term is then invested in brokerage accounts (because I've saved up for an emergency fund and house down payment, which remain liquid).
Oh and 401K money is taken out before I ever see it.
I essentially do what Simple provides on my own, but realize that takes radical discipline. Not everyone has that, but sounds like Simple "hacked" people's habits towards saving. I consider that a "super power" so I'm sad to hear they're closing.
I direct deposit to two HYSA accounts in the same bank. One is my "current expenses" account and represents my projected expenses/budget for the month. The second is my "long term" account that represents savings for long term goals. At the end of each month, if there's money left in the current account, I move it over to the long term. The long term is then invested in brokerage accounts (because I've saved up for an emergency fund and house down payment, which remain liquid).
Oh and 401K money is taken out before I ever see it.
It's a little bit more involved than that.
What you have described is effectively a "checking account" and a "savings account."
Simple lets you have multiple goals you can fund simultaneously, where other banks required you to have multiple accounts to do so.
What you have described is effectively a "checking account" and a "savings account."
Simple lets you have multiple goals you can fund simultaneously, where other banks required you to have multiple accounts to do so.
Simple was good, but they missed a couple of things... First, 2FA. FFS, I don't know who on Hacker News needs to hear this, but _I REALLY DONT want my identity or money secured by my cell number_. I'm incredibly tired of required SMS "2FA", and one of the major reasons I left Simple was their refusal to implement U2F or even TOTP. I'm really hoping there's regulation on this at the federal level soon because it's getting out of hand.
Second, their App never really caught up with the budgeting offerings of Mint. And finally, the Billpay integration never caught up with Ally Bank, which is what I ended up switching to. Ebills should be able to be delivered and paid straight from your bank account in 2020. Simple never unfortunately managed to get this integration.
Second, their App never really caught up with the budgeting offerings of Mint. And finally, the Billpay integration never caught up with Ally Bank, which is what I ended up switching to. Ebills should be able to be delivered and paid straight from your bank account in 2020. Simple never unfortunately managed to get this integration.
I originally liked Simple but hit some rather unsavory bugs like getting a notification there was an error with a transfer that later went through (around 30-40 minutes later when their job queue apparently caught up) and bugs where a transaction would show as pending and cleared at the same time (there was this weird 4 hour window when I got paid)
Either way... I ended up splitting between Ally and Discover. Paychecks go into Discover and a scheduled transfer (the sum of all budgets) goes to Ally along with a separate savings transfer. The end result is Discover is "safe to spend" but there's less granularity in the buckets/envelopes
Either way... I ended up splitting between Ally and Discover. Paychecks go into Discover and a scheduled transfer (the sum of all budgets) goes to Ally along with a separate savings transfer. The end result is Discover is "safe to spend" but there's less granularity in the buckets/envelopes
I've been with Simple since it was invite-only, and used them actively since. Really disappointed. Probably going to switch to Cash App? It currently functions as a secondary fun-money account.
Be careful, your Cash Debit card will not function outside of the USA.
Any alternatives that offer a similar Goals and Expenses feature?
Not a direct replacement but I used YNAB years ago when it was still a desktop app with one time purchase to own. It's still available with most of the functionalities (probably more) but as a website.
The app allows you to set up multiple budget accounts.
Edit: link https://www.youneedabudget.com/
The app allows you to set up multiple budget accounts.
Edit: link https://www.youneedabudget.com/
YNAB is too granular for me (having to categorize transactions, etc), I don't need money management help, I like the convenience of setting a goal and having money be automatically transferred in there.
Possibly OneFinance?[1]
1. https://www.onefinance.com/
1. https://www.onefinance.com/
I've been looking at it, it seems they have a "Pocket" feature that lets you transfer funds into separate "pockets" but you can't automate your savings, the only option being "Auto-Save - turn on and off the ability to automatically save 3% of every paycheck."
The other option I'm seeing is SoFi Money, they have "Vaults" but I can't figure out if you can move money there automatically
The other option I'm seeing is SoFi Money, they have "Vaults" but I can't figure out if you can move money there automatically
I'm a SoFi user and I see the option to set up recurring transfers to vaults https://imgur.com/a/lOXI21u
I've got to say, as a Simple customer since 2013, I'm not really surprised by this. BBVA has steadily gutted what made Simple a great service, and in the last 12 months it became extremely apparent that this service was no longer a priority for them. Between bizarre UI updates, and a huge degradation in customer service quality, I saw the writing on the wall. See ya Simple, it was nice while it lasted.
One of the big things I'm going to miss is: No overdraft fees.
Simple is one of the only banks that doesn't do overdrafts. If you try to use your debit card and have no money, it fails. If you try to send a payment, or a autopay tries to withdraw, and you don't have the money, it fails.
Looking at replacement options, I've kind of honed in on Alliant Credit Union and PNC. PNC was close in the running because of their "virtual wallet" tools years ago when I was last looking, but they really have no presence in my area.
Alliant has a $25 overdraft fee, limited to once a day (IIRC, been looking at a lot of options). PNC has ~$38 fee, limited to 4 times a day.
Now, I don't overdraft often, can't remember the last time. But when I'm moving to a new bank and trying to get everything set up, chances are high and I know getting $150 in overdraft fees is going to piss me right off. And they do offer some protections like free pulling from a backup account or one of their credit cards if you have it before doing a full overdraft.
But almost $40 for an overdraft makes me question the personality of this bank.
Simple is one of the only banks that doesn't do overdrafts. If you try to use your debit card and have no money, it fails. If you try to send a payment, or a autopay tries to withdraw, and you don't have the money, it fails.
Looking at replacement options, I've kind of honed in on Alliant Credit Union and PNC. PNC was close in the running because of their "virtual wallet" tools years ago when I was last looking, but they really have no presence in my area.
Alliant has a $25 overdraft fee, limited to once a day (IIRC, been looking at a lot of options). PNC has ~$38 fee, limited to 4 times a day.
Now, I don't overdraft often, can't remember the last time. But when I'm moving to a new bank and trying to get everything set up, chances are high and I know getting $150 in overdraft fees is going to piss me right off. And they do offer some protections like free pulling from a backup account or one of their credit cards if you have it before doing a full overdraft.
But almost $40 for an overdraft makes me question the personality of this bank.
Schwab has no overdraft fees if you have one of their brokerage accounts. All you incur all margin fees and those are really low like ($0.50 was the most I've been hit with).
Any Portland residents want to comment on the state of the Portland tech scene there? The Oregonian article makes it sound slightly dire...
No big new tech company has emerged in Oregon since the 1990s, though, and the old ones are steadily vanishing. The $8 billion sale of Wilsonville-based Flir Systems, announced Monday, leaves just two publicly traded technology companies in Oregon.
No big new tech company has emerged in Oregon since the 1990s, though, and the old ones are steadily vanishing. The $8 billion sale of Wilsonville-based Flir Systems, announced Monday, leaves just two publicly traded technology companies in Oregon.
I'm a little surprised about the outpouring of love for Simple. I've been a customer for a year or two and have always been super frustrated with the performance of their web & mobile apps, and their customer service.
I only joined and stuck around because the 1% interest rate was better than anything else I could find at the time. Since their rate dropped I transferred all of my money away.
I'm with Yotta & Onefinance today.
Yotta offers >1% interest rate when you calculate it all out. Definitely not anywhere near the 2-3% the people are mentioning in the the comments. They also just recently dropped the # of tickets you get on deposits above $25k which doesn't help.
One finance offers a 1% rate up to $25k & 3% on an account that can be funded by diverting up to 10% of your direct deposits. They also have "Pockets" which I think is similar to what Simple did but tbh I never use any of that stuff...I'm just a rate chaser.
I only joined and stuck around because the 1% interest rate was better than anything else I could find at the time. Since their rate dropped I transferred all of my money away.
I'm with Yotta & Onefinance today.
Yotta offers >1% interest rate when you calculate it all out. Definitely not anywhere near the 2-3% the people are mentioning in the the comments. They also just recently dropped the # of tickets you get on deposits above $25k which doesn't help.
One finance offers a 1% rate up to $25k & 3% on an account that can be funded by diverting up to 10% of your direct deposits. They also have "Pockets" which I think is similar to what Simple did but tbh I never use any of that stuff...I'm just a rate chaser.
Is there something that’s reasonably close to Simple as a replacement?
I'm in the US Monzo beta. The app is super solid, has envelope budgeting features, can automatically divvy up your paycheck like Expenses. Hoping they open up invites before Simple shuts.
Ally Bank is nice. It doesn't have the same panache as a silicon valley startup app, but it is 100% online and a good experience generally.
They've been my main bank for a number of years, and I second this.
The APR on their savings account is generally either the best or among the best available, and the small handful of times I've had to call their customer support, they've been a pleasure.
The APR on their savings account is generally either the best or among the best available, and the small handful of times I've had to call their customer support, they've been a pleasure.
People are mentioning One Finance on the Rediit thread. Not sure about the feature parity though.
I'm an engineer at One and would be happy to answer any questions people have.
Just opened up an account. App feels modern as heck. Awesome app, loving it. Keep up the work.
Nice! Thanks for the feedback.
I've not personally used it, but on another thread people have mentioned Envel Bank: https://www.envel.ai/
Chime is pretty good.
I had Simple bank back when it was new on the scene and kept it for a number of years.
As a homeowner it was annoying at times, I remember paying taxes and tags for vehicles was a problem because Simple didn't want to work with government entities so ever year I'd have a hassle of using another bank to do that. The limits on money spend was also a problem, I remember getting a new HVAC system in the house and having to split payment over two different days. Rather embarrassing for me to the installer voicing concerns, annoying that I can't spend my own money when I obviously have it. Finally lack of paper checks you wouldn't think would be a problem these days but a couple times of year it still came up and I was forced to use another bank and transfer funds.
It was an interesting experiment but after I moved to USAA (or any other real bank) in comparison all my troubles just disappeared.
As a homeowner it was annoying at times, I remember paying taxes and tags for vehicles was a problem because Simple didn't want to work with government entities so ever year I'd have a hassle of using another bank to do that. The limits on money spend was also a problem, I remember getting a new HVAC system in the house and having to split payment over two different days. Rather embarrassing for me to the installer voicing concerns, annoying that I can't spend my own money when I obviously have it. Finally lack of paper checks you wouldn't think would be a problem these days but a couple times of year it still came up and I was forced to use another bank and transfer funds.
It was an interesting experiment but after I moved to USAA (or any other real bank) in comparison all my troubles just disappeared.
Ive used Simple on and off since the beta. Customer service was always top notch. One time they had a few hours downtime and they just gave me $50 for the nuisance. Didnt ask, just suddenly gave me $50.
Also, their reps were also very good at gif communication. Id never before interacted with a company’s support team through multiple gifs.
Also, their reps were also very good at gif communication. Id never before interacted with a company’s support team through multiple gifs.
I have a Chime account. It's pretty good except for one untenable problem. They routinely reject paper check deposits via the app, and will not tell me why.
I recently had a U.S. Treasury check rejected by them. And in multiple messages, they refused to say why. Their reply apologized for both the inconvenience and that they couldn't tell me the reason for the rejection.
I've never had an in-person/traditional bank refuse to explain their actions before this. The rejection might be acceptable with an explanation. The refusal to explain is unworkable. And the explicit apology about the refusal to provide an explanation actually makes it even more frustrating.
The problem with "well I rarely need to deposit paper checks" is that what if I have some other problem? And they just refuse to explain themselves?
I recently had a U.S. Treasury check rejected by them. And in multiple messages, they refused to say why. Their reply apologized for both the inconvenience and that they couldn't tell me the reason for the rejection.
I've never had an in-person/traditional bank refuse to explain their actions before this. The rejection might be acceptable with an explanation. The refusal to explain is unworkable. And the explicit apology about the refusal to provide an explanation actually makes it even more frustrating.
The problem with "well I rarely need to deposit paper checks" is that what if I have some other problem? And they just refuse to explain themselves?
This is disappointing news. Their app is pretty nice and they made shared banking with my wife easy. I also have a backup Chase account. I just fired up their mobile app for the first time in awhile. It's a slow and cluttered mess. Hopefully a spiritual successor to Simple will emerge.
Coming from Chase and Simple, I've found Ally's mobile app and website both to be delightfully functional. None of the obnoxious advertising that plagues so many of Chase's user interfaces.
I like Ally but be warned that a lot of stuff doesn’t work on Firefox. Whole pages won’t load and the fonts are somehow blurry.
Works fine for me as a daily Firefox user.
I was an early customer of Simple, and transitioned to Capital One after the sale to BBVA. The killer for me was that Simple would no longer send out checks through the mail, which was how I had become accustomed to paying my rent.
They also pushed for customers to not use personal checks for anything (at one time they didn't even offer them), which I now find kind of foolish. So after they ended the check-by-mail service, there was no way for me to get a check to my landlord. And it was just kind of a big middle finger to someone who had been a loyal customer.
I guess in the days after the Great Recession we were all hoping for some kind of financial revolution that never came. Simple closing today seems to certify that those hopes are gone.
They also pushed for customers to not use personal checks for anything (at one time they didn't even offer them), which I now find kind of foolish. So after they ended the check-by-mail service, there was no way for me to get a check to my landlord. And it was just kind of a big middle finger to someone who had been a loyal customer.
I guess in the days after the Great Recession we were all hoping for some kind of financial revolution that never came. Simple closing today seems to certify that those hopes are gone.
[deleted]
This is disheartening, but not terribly surprising, news.
I was with Simple back in 2014. I left in 2015 then came back and left for good in 2016.
On one hand, no other bank has tried so hard to make financial responsibility a first-class citizen in their mobile and web apps. They made setting aside money and budgeting expenses very, very seamless to do. I wish other consumer banks learned from what Simple was trying to accomplish. Simple also had the most pleasing and tech-forward mobile and web apps of any consumer bank; it was a step above everything else. Lastly, Simple's customer service was unrivaled. Being able to use a chat platform that didn't suck _and_ get connected with a human within five minutes was not possible elsewhere back then.
On the other hand, some of Simple's business decisions were...frustrating.
It took me _over five days_ for them to replace a lost card. Most banks can replace overnight for an additional fee; Simple didn't even give you that option. This was pretty frustrating given that they encourage you to use their card for everything.
I couldn't pay a bill larger than $3,000 one time (which was ironic given that I was paying off a credit card). I don't remember why, but I remember thinking "this is dumb; any bank would process this payment no questions asked." Trying to pay this bill through Simple was a massive exercise in frustration.
I actually encountered _multiple_ bill pay failures with Simple. Paid bills would never get funds disbursed. Payments would show up multiple times in my ledger. The worst of the failures I experienced happened when I paid one of my student loans but found out _days_ later that the payment actually never went out due to a "technical error." This caused me to miss a payment and eat a late fee. I actually landed up speaking to their CEO at the time about it over the phone; he gave me $50 as an apology consolation, which I thought was cool.
They also didn't support eChecks, which meant that every payment I made would take _at least_ three days to clear through ACH. I remember being very relieved when I switched to Chase and could process payments in 24 hours.
I'm _still_ salty about a failed database migration they performed which took out their backend ATM services while I was on vacation. Couldn't get money out or move money in for a day or two. This would _never_ happen with a bigger bank, and even if it did, they have brick-and-mortars as a fallback.
After BBVA pseudo-acquired them and their legendarily-prompt service went south, I switched over to Chase and never looked back. After Simple removed their Bill Pay feature, I wondered why they just didn't get fully-acquihired or something.
I was with Simple back in 2014. I left in 2015 then came back and left for good in 2016.
On one hand, no other bank has tried so hard to make financial responsibility a first-class citizen in their mobile and web apps. They made setting aside money and budgeting expenses very, very seamless to do. I wish other consumer banks learned from what Simple was trying to accomplish. Simple also had the most pleasing and tech-forward mobile and web apps of any consumer bank; it was a step above everything else. Lastly, Simple's customer service was unrivaled. Being able to use a chat platform that didn't suck _and_ get connected with a human within five minutes was not possible elsewhere back then.
On the other hand, some of Simple's business decisions were...frustrating.
It took me _over five days_ for them to replace a lost card. Most banks can replace overnight for an additional fee; Simple didn't even give you that option. This was pretty frustrating given that they encourage you to use their card for everything.
I couldn't pay a bill larger than $3,000 one time (which was ironic given that I was paying off a credit card). I don't remember why, but I remember thinking "this is dumb; any bank would process this payment no questions asked." Trying to pay this bill through Simple was a massive exercise in frustration.
I actually encountered _multiple_ bill pay failures with Simple. Paid bills would never get funds disbursed. Payments would show up multiple times in my ledger. The worst of the failures I experienced happened when I paid one of my student loans but found out _days_ later that the payment actually never went out due to a "technical error." This caused me to miss a payment and eat a late fee. I actually landed up speaking to their CEO at the time about it over the phone; he gave me $50 as an apology consolation, which I thought was cool.
They also didn't support eChecks, which meant that every payment I made would take _at least_ three days to clear through ACH. I remember being very relieved when I switched to Chase and could process payments in 24 hours.
I'm _still_ salty about a failed database migration they performed which took out their backend ATM services while I was on vacation. Couldn't get money out or move money in for a day or two. This would _never_ happen with a bigger bank, and even if it did, they have brick-and-mortars as a fallback.
After BBVA pseudo-acquired them and their legendarily-prompt service went south, I switched over to Chase and never looked back. After Simple removed their Bill Pay feature, I wondered why they just didn't get fully-acquihired or something.
IMO it seemed like in 2019/2020 with the advent of "consumer banking apps" that what the once "groundbreaking" features Simple provided had basically become commonplace. Or because of other banks at least half implementing them - it stymied the number of people who would actually switch to Simple or showed that people just didn't really care. At the end of the day, Simple provided a slick UI to get people to use their bank and it seems like there just wasn't enough of an edge to drive users to their underlying financial institutions. Privacy definitely wasn't as much of a big deal back when Simple started?
Got the email earlier today, been a customer since 2012. Love their app, savings plans, etc.
Felt like the first time a banking app was modern, and even my BoA and Discover apps are woefully behind Simple to this day.
I doubt BBVA will provide a good replacement sadly.
Felt like the first time a banking app was modern, and even my BoA and Discover apps are woefully behind Simple to this day.
I doubt BBVA will provide a good replacement sadly.
Simple has been on a downwards trajectory for a while now. Not handling wire transfers was infuriating when buying a house and refinancing and the recent removing of bill pay/check sending was egregious. You want to know how they tried to spin that? They sent out an email saying “we now support paper checks!” And then at the bottom said something like “and bill pay is going away kthxbye”.
YNAB “manages” all my money now so thankfully switching isn’t terrible. I just have to switch my direct deposit, my utilities, and my CC’s and I’m done.
I’m sad to see Simple die but it’s had one foot in the grave for a while.
YNAB “manages” all my money now so thankfully switching isn’t terrible. I just have to switch my direct deposit, my utilities, and my CC’s and I’m done.
I’m sad to see Simple die but it’s had one foot in the grave for a while.
I loved Simple when it started, but had to transfer away in 2018 after they rolled out some new security system which started flagging withdrawals from nearby ATMs, at stable local businesses, which I'd gone to for years, as suspicious transactions. Each time, I'd have to call to get my card unlocked. After three times, I begged their support people to please contact someone up the chain know I was closing my account because I literally couldn't get my money out. They were sympathetic but refused to countenance the idea that the transactions were incorrectly categorized.
Getting a Simple account in 2015 with its envelopes helped me get my spending under control and develop better financial habits. I'll miss the envelopes, but the budgeting habit already moved out to a spreadsheet.
Simple had some good ideas, but I eventually moved on to more "grown up" banking solutions. What caused me to leave was the inability to write paper checks, which I only needed once or twice a year but is a useful and reasonable-to-expect feature in a "checking" account. Going to a web form and requesting they mail a check on my behalf wasn't an adequate replacement for my needs... scenarios like money in a Christmas card, security deposit on a desirable apartment that a landlord isn't going to hold for me without that deposit, etc.
Funny how I see people complaining about a lack of checkbooks, and people complaining about a lack of mailing checks features in the same thread. Seems like no matter what you do, people will be there to complain about it.
But they started mailing out checkbooks about 2 years ago. I have one sitting in my desk.
But they started mailing out checkbooks about 2 years ago. I have one sitting in my desk.
I use their checks several times a month. I was angry when BBVA canned the webform to check feature. Prior to that, Bancorp did not offer checkbooks, but had the webform feature.
Used Simple for a signup bonus, was fine, was weird that I could only see certain details (the exact amount of ACH trial deposits) in the mobile app instead of the web app.
They declined to open an account for my wife (who was also angling for a signup bonus) with no explanation; response to a CFPB complaint was "we will not explain"; no response to a CEO email. Was very weird. Nothing apparently fraudulent or weird in her application, credit, chexsystems, etc., just a "we don't want your wife's business".
They declined to open an account for my wife (who was also angling for a signup bonus) with no explanation; response to a CFPB complaint was "we will not explain"; no response to a CEO email. Was very weird. Nothing apparently fraudulent or weird in her application, credit, chexsystems, etc., just a "we don't want your wife's business".
Anyone else remember getting $20 for just opening a Simple account when Google Wallet shut down back in 2016? Thank you Simple for the good 4 years.
I was a Simple customer in their beta days, then stopped using it for a lot of things, eventually though right as they moved their partner bank to BBVA I switched and started using Simple heavily.
However not too long thereafter they got rid of their Bill Pay/Send a Check feature instead expecting me to send physical checks myself... which meant I immediately went looking for a new bank.
So I found Sofi instead.
However not too long thereafter they got rid of their Bill Pay/Send a Check feature instead expecting me to send physical checks myself... which meant I immediately went looking for a new bank.
So I found Sofi instead.
Time to open a new bank account and find a new home. Simple has been really great for me and I am very disappointed that it is going away.
I loved Simple, but had to move back to a traditional bank when I got married. Lack of joint accounts was the major problem, but it also turns out being able to write your own checks instantly has some real advantages (over waiting for 1+ weeks for delivery). I did love the good things about it though, and def sad to see it wind down.
While it was never my primary bank, I’ve been a Simple customer since it was in beta and still known as Bank Simple. I’ve searched my email, checked the announcements in the app, and checked the website, but there’s no mention of them closing. You can even still apply for accounts online. Talk about mismanagement!
This letter wasn’t phrased how they usually communicate, and it was word-for-word the same as Azlo’s shutdown notice. Simple usually sends out really good regulatory document explanations with easy examples. I think BBVA forced them to do it this way.
I had to check my spam to find the notice, after hearing about it from a friend first!
any speculation on why it failed? i was fairly optimistic on Simple a year or two ago and then they fell off the map
I don’t know a lot about bank economics, but it’s not clear to me how they would have made much money. Interest rates are basically 0%, and they didn’t charge much in the way of fees.
I bank with Charles Schwab, which is very low cost in terms of fees, but I’m sure they make money by using my money in all sorts of trading shenanigans. (I feel somewhat guilty for contributing to the financialization of everything, but…no ATM fees, anywhere!)
I bank with Charles Schwab, which is very low cost in terms of fees, but I’m sure they make money by using my money in all sorts of trading shenanigans. (I feel somewhat guilty for contributing to the financialization of everything, but…no ATM fees, anywhere!)
They made money on the interchange fees from their debit cards, as many other similar services do now.
I think it was murder by acquisition. BBVA USA was recently bought out by PNC bank and there probably wasn’t room for Simple in the new company. For the most part simple provided a superb ui on top of BBVA bank accounts. I’m sad to see them go.
Maybe a murder by acquisition from BBVA?
Why can't the community buy it or it be turned into a steward owned company? This seems like a terrible loss.
Off topic: What are folks using these days for banking? Is there a good, online bank with a decent savings and checking yield? I've been keeping my 6 month reserve in a checking account for a while because I'm lazy but this article has me considering a switch.
I've had simple for the last 5 years and this is truly upsetting. No other app I've seen tops their mobile app and their customer support is by far the best experience. Any other replacement banks that have joint bank accounts? My wife and I love it.
> The company struggled to compete as larger banks adopted many of the convenient online banking features Simple helped pioneer.
Is there a general lesson there when a company's USP is UX (alone)? Interested in hearing what startup-ers think about that.
Is there a general lesson there when a company's USP is UX (alone)? Interested in hearing what startup-ers think about that.
Simple has been on the decline for a long time, I remember before their acquisition, their support was great and slowly it declined. I think for a long time Simple has just been a nice UI and slowly fading away. This is the last lap for them.
Simple was the best banking experience I ever had. USAA or someone should buy their tech.
Even crazier, they seem to have un-sent the email? I got a notification that I had an email from Simple, but didn't check it immediately, and now it's completely gone from my email account. I've never seen that happen before.
This happened to me but it somehow ended up in Spam. I use gmail.
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Damn; I finally joined Simple last year. Has anybody had experience with Varo Bank? That's the closest alternative I could find. What else do you all recommend? I've looked at Varo, Vio, HmBradley, and Discover.
Lots of people in this thread really loving being a Simple customer. I have a "big box" bank and I don't really know if I'm missing out. What should I look for in a bank? What made Simple stand out?
People have said it off and on through this thread, but the true differentiator for me has always been Goals + Expenses.
They account for the fact that money is fungible and the envelopes are "soft", but still provide a sense of autopilot and integration that I've never been able to get from Mint/YNAB.
You could set aside static "Goal" envelopes just to stash money away, or recurring "Expenses" funded every payday. Auto-deduct from both those sets based on vendor. All the while I could just peek at the app to see my "Safe to Spend" and know what money I could spend for fun with all my base expenses still accounted for. This also worked in joint accounts with my partner, making our shared budgeting trivial.
I will miss this app dearly - it really made a difference in how I manage my money.
They account for the fact that money is fungible and the envelopes are "soft", but still provide a sense of autopilot and integration that I've never been able to get from Mint/YNAB.
You could set aside static "Goal" envelopes just to stash money away, or recurring "Expenses" funded every payday. Auto-deduct from both those sets based on vendor. All the while I could just peek at the app to see my "Safe to Spend" and know what money I could spend for fun with all my base expenses still accounted for. This also worked in joint accounts with my partner, making our shared budgeting trivial.
I will miss this app dearly - it really made a difference in how I manage my money.
I highly recommend Charles Schwab for a checking account in the US. https://www.schwab.com/checking
(I was a Simple customer at one point)
(I was a Simple customer at one point)
Alternatively, look for a local credit union. I belong to one that was originally set up for firefighters and their families but is now open to people living and working here.
Pros:
- Most credit unions cooperate on a shared ATM network, so I have zero-fee access to way more ATMs than any bank does that I know of. Also, they reimburse any other ATM network fees (but I try not to rack up too many of those because I don't want to cost my CU money).
- They also usually cooperate on physical location resources: although my CU doesn't have a branch nearby, I can walk into another CU's location around the block to make deposits and withdrawals. Try walking into Wells Fargo and depositing money in your Bank of America account.
- Their lending rates are SO good. When I wanted to buy a new vehicle, I emailed the loan manager who gave me a pre-approval for about 50% more than I needed (just in case I stumbled over an awesome offer on something more expensive that I was looking for) at a ridiculously low rate. Then they recommended a dealership to me. My wife and I went to the dealer and picked out our vehicle. The sales manager said "I know you have financing, but let me see what I can do for you. What's your APR?" I told him and he started laughing: "yeah, I'm not gonna be able to touch that. Congratulations on it!"
- They have amazing customer service. Any time I've need something, from adjusting the date my loan payment is due to asking them to please stop putting a hold on the deposits of my wife's paychecks, has been a call or email and they just do it.
Cons:
- Nothing that I can think of after being with them for 5 years.
Pros:
- Most credit unions cooperate on a shared ATM network, so I have zero-fee access to way more ATMs than any bank does that I know of. Also, they reimburse any other ATM network fees (but I try not to rack up too many of those because I don't want to cost my CU money).
- They also usually cooperate on physical location resources: although my CU doesn't have a branch nearby, I can walk into another CU's location around the block to make deposits and withdrawals. Try walking into Wells Fargo and depositing money in your Bank of America account.
- Their lending rates are SO good. When I wanted to buy a new vehicle, I emailed the loan manager who gave me a pre-approval for about 50% more than I needed (just in case I stumbled over an awesome offer on something more expensive that I was looking for) at a ridiculously low rate. Then they recommended a dealership to me. My wife and I went to the dealer and picked out our vehicle. The sales manager said "I know you have financing, but let me see what I can do for you. What's your APR?" I told him and he started laughing: "yeah, I'm not gonna be able to touch that. Congratulations on it!"
- They have amazing customer service. Any time I've need something, from adjusting the date my loan payment is due to asking them to please stop putting a hold on the deposits of my wife's paychecks, has been a call or email and they just do it.
Cons:
- Nothing that I can think of after being with them for 5 years.
I generally agree, aside from:
- Lending rates: some CUs don't have the best rates for certain products, especially on lines of credit. Auto loans are typically cheaper with CUs for whatever reason.
- One big con is the mobile apps - typically terrible at most CUs.
- Lending rates: some CUs don't have the best rates for certain products, especially on lines of credit. Auto loans are typically cheaper with CUs for whatever reason.
- One big con is the mobile apps - typically terrible at most CUs.
Why not BoA or Chase, for instance? Can you please highlight the key differentiating features?
BoA has had some anti-consumer habits in the past which caused me to burn almost all bridges with them. They were among the banks who would process all charges and deposits in a day starting with the largest charge and ending with the largest deposit. This let them ding you for many more insufficient balance fees (each small charge once you were below a $0 balance got you a new $25 or $50 fee; this hit a colleague and some acquaintances, I don't let my balances get that low). They also liked to tuck away account policy changes, like minimum balances, into the fine print. I had one account with them (wanted a physical bank and had moved everything else online) with the minimum $1500 balance to avoid any fees, they changed it to $1600 or 1750 and started hitting me with $25/month fees (reimbursed) because I'd failed to notice that policy change in the documents they'd sent. And the main reason, today, to avoid them is that their interest rates are terrible. Their CD rates are often below checking account rates at other banks (last checked in early 2020, not sure what their current rates are but a 10+ year history of horrible rates probably didn't change this year).
I was with BofA during this time, around 2006. On top of posting highest to lowest, they had a hidden account allowance, called a "Matrix allowance", which was basically a hidden line of credit behind every checking account. It was the maximum amount of money the bank would allow the account to become overdrawn before denying transactions. The allowance amount increased if the account became overdrawn frequency and the overdraft fees were paid.
No fees. I can go to any ATM and I will get reimbursed for the fee.
I was once behind on a payment to the State of California but due to moving multiple times in a short period of time they were unable to get the notice to me. I had no idea that I owed them such a big chunk of cash (taxes). Chase took the money out of my account on their behalf and charged me an additional fee. Smaller banks don't do it - but the big banks make a ton of profit fom things like this. Suffice to say I closed my account with Chase more or less immediately afterwards. I felt violated, frankly.
For a while I was making close to 2% return which is pretty impressive for a regular free checking account. Once interest rates went to hell that stopped, though.
Citi, Chase, Wells, BoA, USBank, they are all the worst.
I was once behind on a payment to the State of California but due to moving multiple times in a short period of time they were unable to get the notice to me. I had no idea that I owed them such a big chunk of cash (taxes). Chase took the money out of my account on their behalf and charged me an additional fee. Smaller banks don't do it - but the big banks make a ton of profit fom things like this. Suffice to say I closed my account with Chase more or less immediately afterwards. I felt violated, frankly.
For a while I was making close to 2% return which is pretty impressive for a regular free checking account. Once interest rates went to hell that stopped, though.
Citi, Chase, Wells, BoA, USBank, they are all the worst.
One thing I like about them - no ATM fee worldwide and they would refund any ATM fee charged by the local bank.
Only annoying thing is that there's no Zelle, so you have to use the Zelle app, so if you want to send or receive payments over $500 you're screwed.
Just received an email that Azlo is shutting down as well. BBVA not holding back.
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I enjoyed Simple for their amazing app, but in the end found that the 1 or 2 times a year I sold something for cash on Craigslist meant I always needed a branch. So I gave up and moved to a credit union.
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Related ongoing discussion about Azlo: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25676301
There is a weird trend rn with new banks popping up with a combination of A)high APY B) high cashback rewards
C) Fractional shares
Of course each app/bank also has a seemingly lucrative referral program.
They all seem to also be back by the same handful of banks. Sutton Bank, Hatch Bank etc.
Some examples:
HMBradley
Points Card
TomoCard
CashApp card
SabelCard
OnJuno
Stash
Etc.
Of course each app/bank also has a seemingly lucrative referral program.
They all seem to also be back by the same handful of banks. Sutton Bank, Hatch Bank etc.
Some examples:
HMBradley
Points Card
TomoCard
CashApp card
SabelCard
OnJuno
Stash
Etc.
Do any checking accounts offer and API? I love Simple and I think I could easily recreate the Safe to Spend and Budgeting functionality easily with a lightweight rails app for myself.
Sad to see them go, happy user for a long time as well -- anyone know what went wrong? Why did they sell to BBVA / is it just financially infeasible to run a web-based bank?
I don’t know why they sold to BBVA a while ago, but BBVA’s US operations just got sold to PNC a couple months ago. I’m guessing that simple is closing because there isn’t space for it at PNC.
This absolutely sucks. I love their service. Great job ya'll.
Knew it was only a matter of time, and told their support on multiple occasions they had so much potential but there were simply to many fundamental issues they weren't addressing to get mass market appeal and be sustainable. I was one of the first customers, (early beta), and was absolutely thrilled to try it out back in 2011. It had a lot of shortcomings, but was hopefully it would iterate quickly, and was a beautiful modern interface compared to the horrible experience at the big banks (Which are still awful in comparison but a million times better now). There were so initial deal breaker issues, notably no support for written checks, no option to deposit checks in person (only mail), and very low mobile upload limits, slow transfers (no next day transfers for a fee like others offered), no joint checking, no business accounts, and countless other issues. The lack of checks and joint checking were major issues that while I dealt with, were things that prevented any non beta/technical friends and family from ever considering it. I'm someone who certainly very rarely writes checks so I was an ideal customer, alas when I did need to write checks... it was because I had to. Maybe you need to write a check for a service provided on the spot, buying a house at closing, among other scenarios. And for the the average person there are countless more use cases. Simple's approach was to avoid fees, and if they allow checks (other than mailed certified checks) then people could overdraft and thus need ability to charge fees, and the safe to use amount would be off. While I get that, if I over draft, I'm fine paying for it, and I understand if I write a check the safe to use would be less. Instead of dealing with those issues they just ignored them. There were times when needing to transfer money next day, and was not an option. Once again, when that need arrises it's because it's needed and thus completely fine paying for it accordingly. Support was amazing back in 2011 and 2012, but as they grew support become much worse since that level of support is hard to scale. Once again I was an ideal user in most ways, ad I HATED having to go to branches, and would much rather mobile deposit all checks and rarely ever used cash, but because of the very low deposit limits had to often mail in checks instead which was no good. If you don't have branches you have to have high mobile limits. Luckily other banks did offer such high limits. I spent so many years providing long emails with all the issues in detail as I wanted to see it grow and improve, and while over the years some of the issues were resolved, other deal breakers remained and then they got new ownership and still no big changes, so new it was only a matter of time until it would shut down.
On a related note, anyone got a good bank recommendation?
I just started researching alternatives last night. Nerdwallet is a good resource. Ally bank seems like the closest online bank in terms of customer support/services. They lack the advanced budgeting tools though, it seems.
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Azlo, another bank built on BBVA is also closing: https://azlo.com
Azlo is also closing. They just sent word today. I wonder if it’s coincidence or they are owned by the same parent company (BBVA).
Try out Novo
[0] https://banknovo.com
[0] https://banknovo.com
Would definitely use app store rating as a proxy for quality of product over Trustpilot: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/novo-business-banking/id137555... -- 4.7/5 stars and 1.5k reviews vs 2.2/5 and only 39 reviews
Good. I tried to sign up and they rejected me because I am not a citizen, although I live in the US on a greencard.
Interestingly, my wife and I both have separate Simple accounts. I haven't gotten the email, but my wife has.
As of last week they had multiple job openings still posted on LinkedIn - I guess this moved pretty quickly
Does anyone have thoughts on a replacement? I'd love to stay with a more modern approach to banking.
I briefly used Simple when they first launched (and so were lacking some important features). Eventually I switched back to Schwab and I’ve yet to find a better bank. I even banked with Schwab when I worked at a bank that wasn’t Schwab. Their customer service was much better.
Been a huge fan of SoFi. They have similar features to Simple but offer a wider range of services
Just looked into them and apparently they are not a bank which I'm guessing means not FDIC insured. That gives me pause...
I believe they are also based on BBVA or something similar but they applied for a charter license[1] which I think would allow them to run without any underlying bank.
This is what it says at the bottom of their website:
> 5 The cash balance in SoFi Money cash management accounts is swept to one or more program banks where it earns a variable rate of interest and is eligible for FDIC insurance. FDIC Insurance does not immediately apply. Coverage begins when funds arrive at a program bank. There are currently six banks available to accept these deposits, making customers eligible for up to $1,500,000 of FDIC insurance (six banks, $250,000 per bank). If the number of available banks changes, or you elect not to use, and/or have existing assets at, one or more of the available banks, the actual amount could be lower. For more information on FDIC insurance coverage, please visit www.FDIC.gov. Customers are responsible for monitoring their total assets at each of the Program Banks to determine the extent of available FDIC insurance coverage in accordance with FDIC rules. The deposits in SoFi Money or at Program Banks are not covered by SIPC.
[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sofi-bank-charter/fintech...
This is what it says at the bottom of their website:
> 5 The cash balance in SoFi Money cash management accounts is swept to one or more program banks where it earns a variable rate of interest and is eligible for FDIC insurance. FDIC Insurance does not immediately apply. Coverage begins when funds arrive at a program bank. There are currently six banks available to accept these deposits, making customers eligible for up to $1,500,000 of FDIC insurance (six banks, $250,000 per bank). If the number of available banks changes, or you elect not to use, and/or have existing assets at, one or more of the available banks, the actual amount could be lower. For more information on FDIC insurance coverage, please visit www.FDIC.gov. Customers are responsible for monitoring their total assets at each of the Program Banks to determine the extent of available FDIC insurance coverage in accordance with FDIC rules. The deposits in SoFi Money or at Program Banks are not covered by SIPC.
[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sofi-bank-charter/fintech...
They're FDIC insured, or more accurately, the accounts lie at actual partner banks (SoFi being a fintech layer on top of that) that are FDIC insured.
https://www.sofi.com/money/security-and-protection/
https://twitter.com/sofi/status/1110706933692981248
https://www.sofi.com/money/security-and-protection/
https://twitter.com/sofi/status/1110706933692981248
Can someone explain what Simple was so I might understand the significance of their closure?
Imagine if a bunch of Apple employees decided to open an online bank. It felt like that: intuitive bank app, no fees for most services, checking accounts, a nicely designed debit card (VISA), US-based customer service reps, no brick-and-mortar branches. They lived up to their name in their app and service. Hopefully, the Simple employees move over to BBVA.
[I only used their checking and savings features. I never used eBills, paper checks, etc, which some people weren't happy about. Certain companies also could not transfer money from the Simple checking account, like Robin Hood. However, I still kept the account open because for my limited needs (debit card and savings), the app was great and so was service.]
[I only used their checking and savings features. I never used eBills, paper checks, etc, which some people weren't happy about. Certain companies also could not transfer money from the Simple checking account, like Robin Hood. However, I still kept the account open because for my limited needs (debit card and savings), the app was great and so was service.]
A online bank with IMO great savings and money management features. They also had a fairly competitive high-yield interest rate on their savings accounts.
It is a banking app with features for budgeting and had a 'slick app'. Their killer features were 'goals' and 'safe-to-spend' where you could auto move money to buckets, and your balance in the app would not show the allocated funds.
Acquired by BBVA a few years back, and clearly not 'worth it' to them.
Acquired by BBVA a few years back, and clearly not 'worth it' to them.
A modern app that looked and worked great, a customer service team you could call and you'd recognize their name because you worked with them before, low fees, and a killer envelope saving feature.
I wonder if something like Simple’s Goals could be implemented using Stripe Treasury.
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Sorry to learn this... I enjoyed being their customer.
[deleted]
Are there any good alternatives?
A sad day.
[deleted]
fml
We changed the url from https://www.reddit.com/r/SimpleBanking/comments/ksize0/simpl... to what seems to be the best article about the subject.
Envelope budgeting sounds like something grandma did. I just get enough total money in a bank account to pay bills.
My pitch to the Simple team, or anyone interested in taking this on, is to take the app and build it on top of Stripe Treasury (https://stripe.com/treasury).