Finger counting gives away your nationality(bbc.com)
bbc.com
Finger counting gives away your nationality
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210902-how-finger-counting-gives-away-your-nationality
159 comments
Drinking outside a bar in Paris (so table service) with my girlfriend, the glasses approach empty so I turn to catch the barman's eye. He flicks the Vs (I am culturally sensitive so not offended, he means "two more pints?"), I return the thumbs-up. He brings one pint.
That's interesting. How can one differentiate the two then? Does the wrist position matter? A thumb out with the wrist twisted so the thumb is at an angle indicates "1", but a forward thrusted wrist so the thumb is pointing up and towards the person mean "yes, good job"? Is the second meaning lost entirely to the barman?
If you had flashed OK hand gesture, would the barman have poured 3 pints, or thought you were a member of a fringe group?
If you had flashed OK hand gesture, would the barman have poured 3 pints, or thought you were a member of a fringe group?
> If you had flashed OK hand gesture... thought you were a member of a fringe group?
For what it's worth, this hand sign being a hate dogwhistle is pretty much entirely an invention of 4chan.
For what it's worth, this hand sign being a hate dogwhistle is pretty much entirely an invention of 4chan.
> invention of 4chan
They set out to transform a symbol, and they succeeded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_gesture#White_power_symbol
If you think it isn't real because it was made up, Vonnegut's Mother Night has you covered: "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.”
They set out to transform a symbol, and they succeeded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_gesture#White_power_symbol
If you think it isn't real because it was made up, Vonnegut's Mother Night has you covered: "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.”
They only succeeded if you let them. And if you do I'm going to think less of you for enabling them.
Right now this new 'perception' is pretty limited to a certain US-centric news bubble. Everyone outside that bubble in the US, and generally people everywhere else, are likely to laugh in your face if you tried to convince them the OK gesture is a hate symbol now.
Your average person hasn't even heard of this inane controversy. I for one have to seek out the kind of demographic who thinks that way online - because nowhere else could I even find anyone.
Right now this new 'perception' is pretty limited to a certain US-centric news bubble. Everyone outside that bubble in the US, and generally people everywhere else, are likely to laugh in your face if you tried to convince them the OK gesture is a hate symbol now.
Your average person hasn't even heard of this inane controversy. I for one have to seek out the kind of demographic who thinks that way online - because nowhere else could I even find anyone.
That same hand symbol has been super offensive in Germany for decades, but for scatological reasons, not white power ones.
The swastika was a symbol of good luck, the infinity of creation and the unconquered, revolving sun for millennia. Now it's the symbol of the Nazi party and their atrocities. It's not fair, but that's how symbols work. Their meanings can change when new meanings are ascribed to them.
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white...
If a bunch of far-right dipshits want to rally around a cartoon frog and what used to be an innocuous hand gesture, then the meaning of those symbols is going to shift. You're the one playing into their hand. You're the one letting the cryptos remain crypto, instead of illuminating and naming their behavior, for shame.
The swastika was a symbol of good luck, the infinity of creation and the unconquered, revolving sun for millennia. Now it's the symbol of the Nazi party and their atrocities. It's not fair, but that's how symbols work. Their meanings can change when new meanings are ascribed to them.
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white...
If a bunch of far-right dipshits want to rally around a cartoon frog and what used to be an innocuous hand gesture, then the meaning of those symbols is going to shift. You're the one playing into their hand. You're the one letting the cryptos remain crypto, instead of illuminating and naming their behavior, for shame.
The same people blaring on about them somehow "taking over" a common symbol were, not so long ago, trying to claim that the same scumbags had somehow 'taken over milk' as a symbol of white supremacy.
It's impossible to take these claims seriously. The media will publish anything that gets clicks, no matter how exaggerated or even fabricated, the people making up these claims know they'll get instant coverage and spread their 'cause', and the people spreading the idea that some loser somewhere saying "uh, the middle finger stands for the monolithic purity of the white race" is actually a threat to the fabric of society just enjoy having another thing to be morally panicked by.
It's impossible to take these claims seriously. The media will publish anything that gets clicks, no matter how exaggerated or even fabricated, the people making up these claims know they'll get instant coverage and spread their 'cause', and the people spreading the idea that some loser somewhere saying "uh, the middle finger stands for the monolithic purity of the white race" is actually a threat to the fabric of society just enjoy having another thing to be morally panicked by.
I think you're seeing a slightly different narrative. 4chan decided to make people upset about the hand sign, some major news networks obediently expressed outrage, and a whole lot of people who actively dislike said news channels discovered a whole new way to generate headlines.
They were so successful at marketing the idea that the "ok" sign meant White Power that white nationalists started using it that way and the meaning shifted. And since a lot of the 4chan people are deeply racist they were basically saying "let's take over this symbol". And they succeeded.
As far as I know 4chan people were trolling the media and they succeeded. The result is both funny and scary. The scary part is that random people's lives are harmed because of some innocent photo or gesture. This insanity stems not only from media but also the new culture. Hopefully when going back to normality we will not swing too much to the other side.
You're completely ignoring the fact, started in the comment as well, that white nationalists have widely adopted the signal subsequently
It's funny because that sign represents "allah" :) if I was into conspiracy I would say there's a 4chan elite directing hilarious ops inside 4chan
4chan generally produces some of the most objectively hilarious scenarios. I recommend watching the "He will not divide us" series by Internet Historian on Youtube.
By this logic, you should start using racial slurs in a positive way.
No. This gentleman is not, and was not, a white supremacist:
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-ove...
He didn't lose his job because of 4chan, but because of ostensibly well-intentioned midwits who believe "4chan succeeded in transforming a symbol" and "fake things can be real". Truly, this type of rationalization is the Bell Curve meme in action.
He was fired because of the reaction -- engineered by 4chan -- of over-intellectualizing social justice nabobs who attend rallies and protests. You guys were literally told the punchline of the joke and still walked right into it.
He didn't lose his job because of 4chan, but because of ostensibly well-intentioned midwits who believe "4chan succeeded in transforming a symbol" and "fake things can be real". Truly, this type of rationalization is the Bell Curve meme in action.
He was fired because of the reaction -- engineered by 4chan -- of over-intellectualizing social justice nabobs who attend rallies and protests. You guys were literally told the punchline of the joke and still walked right into it.
Maybe not, but this guy sure is: https://www.axios.com/christchuch-attacks-brenton-tarrant-15...
Obviously the twitter hive-mind went too far in singling this one guy out, and SDG&E colossally fucked up in not doing basic due diligence before firing him. That doesn't change the fact though that there are people out there who do indeed use the hand sign to unironically mean exactly the things that 4chan set out to convince people that it meant. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending otherwise is nothing short of willful ignorance.
Obviously the twitter hive-mind went too far in singling this one guy out, and SDG&E colossally fucked up in not doing basic due diligence before firing him. That doesn't change the fact though that there are people out there who do indeed use the hand sign to unironically mean exactly the things that 4chan set out to convince people that it meant. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending otherwise is nothing short of willful ignorance.
Amazing.
The false information that this gesture means anything has everything to do with that man being fired, and contributes absolutely nothing to the awfulness of the Christchurch shooting, but you feel there is somehow an equivalence? Not only that, but you think there's moral superiority afforded to you for making this observation?
The false information that this gesture means anything has everything to do with that man being fired, and contributes absolutely nothing to the awfulness of the Christchurch shooting, but you feel there is somehow an equivalence? Not only that, but you think there's moral superiority afforded to you for making this observation?
It is an amazing way to show how paranoid people are over "dogwhistles." Witches are everywhere!
People want to have something to fear or wave pitchforks at. It's simple mob psychology, and it's scary.
Perhaps you'd care to explain why this guy has it emblazoned on his helmet. As I have pointed out many times, simply ignoring people whose ideas you find disagreeable doesn't necessarily make them go away.
https://theintercept.imgix.net/wp-uploads/sites/1/2021/08/08...
https://theintercept.imgix.net/wp-uploads/sites/1/2021/08/08...
For the same reason people like him fly the Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag (which was carried into battle against the Nazis). It makes people like you upset, which is hilarious to them.
Are you saying I should ignore that this guy and his ilk have a habit of beating on people, because they're just trolling?
Let's see, that flag was used for:
1. An army supporting the continuation of the enslavement of black peoples.
2. A group (KKK) who would ride out and lynch black people.
3. A very small number of people who fought Nazis.
4. Neo-nazis.
1 out of 4 isn't bad, I suppose...
1. An army supporting the continuation of the enslavement of black peoples.
2. A group (KKK) who would ride out and lynch black people.
3. A very small number of people who fought Nazis.
4. Neo-nazis.
1 out of 4 isn't bad, I suppose...
I'm not defending the flag, just explaining that outrage over symbols simply makes the symbols more powerful. It was flown by some very good people at one point, and I think that bears mentioning, given the context.
Because we're all idiots who got taken in on this by 4chan.
The symbol became irresistible to that guy after watching liberals lose their minds at it. If it hadn't bothered the libs, it would have no use to him.
The symbol became irresistible to that guy after watching liberals lose their minds at it. If it hadn't bothered the libs, it would have no use to him.
I think you're missing the point that they would have just rolled with some different symbol instead. People like this don't become violent as a result of liberals losing their minds, obviously.
Semantic quibbling over the provenance of the symbol is a distraction from the violent ethos and activities of those who adopted it.
Semantic quibbling over the provenance of the symbol is a distraction from the violent ethos and activities of those who adopted it.
The leader of the proud boys once stuck a dildo up his ass, on stage, in order to "own the libs". It's documented, you can look it up.
I think you're underestimating lib owning as a motivational factor for these guys.
I think you're underestimating lib owning as a motivational factor for these guys.
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But witches are obviously fictional, whereas white supremists are very real.
Do white supremists float?
Not sure why you claim witches aren't real. I know plenty of witches. While they may not be green skinned and fly on broomsticks that melt in water, there are plenty of people that call themselves witches nevermind whatever characture you have in mind.
Not sure why you claim witches aren't real. I know plenty of witches. While they may not be green skinned and fly on broomsticks that melt in water, there are plenty of people that call themselves witches nevermind whatever characture you have in mind.
The "witches" people were afraid of during the witch-trials were accused of worshiping and consorting with the devil to cast harmful spells or undermine the Christian virtue of a community. Those witches were the product of mass hysteria and opportunistic hatred, and almost certainly never existed.
It's going to depend based on context. In this case, context was unclear and a misunderstanding ensued. I have nothing to back this up except experience, but I think the thumb up is less common is Europe than in the US.
In this specific case, I think the expected answer is to confirm the number by flashing the same sign. A nod would also work, but be potentially less clear/easier to be missed.
The ok gesture would likely have worked as well, since in France they start counting from the thumb. I don't think the fringe group association is well known in France.
In this specific case, I think the expected answer is to confirm the number by flashing the same sign. A nod would also work, but be potentially less clear/easier to be missed.
The ok gesture would likely have worked as well, since in France they start counting from the thumb. I don't think the fringe group association is well known in France.
The ok sign usually means zero in France.
In this situation; as a Frenchy; I would have repeated the count to confirm while nodding. Or waved my hand while shaking my head to refuse.
In this situation; as a Frenchy; I would have repeated the count to confirm while nodding. Or waved my hand while shaking my head to refuse.
Or waved your finger to say no, or as a real French just shout through 'patron ya marée basse, r'mets voir les p'tites soeurs !'. Thumbs up would work too, maybe both thumbs up, once you're sure the guy understood you wanted two pint...
We may use the OK sign to signify 'au poil' (very fine) most often with pinched lips (mock Italian face).
We may use the OK sign to signify 'au poil' (very fine) most often with pinched lips (mock Italian face).
He should have nodded his head
Careful, is that a singular movement from up to down in affirmation, or a singular movement from down to up as in "what's up"? in some situations, the first would mean send in the assassin to take out that person involved in that thing. that's one you don't want to use at the wrong time.
It’s a wonder we humans get anything done
Nodding the head is probably the better way.
I've heard of situations where the nod/shake are switched. Better just go with the waggle.
I find it curious that you mention your not being offended at some gesture that happens to mean something a couple 100 or 1000 miles away from where you saw the gesture. Why would it require extra cultural sensitivity to realize that, if you visit some other place, that they have a different language (verbal and non-verbal)?
It's hard to turn off a reflex to something you normally consider an offensive gesture. That kind of unconscious thought works faster than the "…oh, yeah, nevermind" thought.
See also: how many times I've unconsciously started pumping my own gas when I drive through Oregon even though I "know" not to.
See also: how many times I've unconsciously started pumping my own gas when I drive through Oregon even though I "know" not to.
It’s funny that you write this like it was some natural law rather than your own personal mentality.
> like it was some natural law
Yeah https://web.archive.org/web/20100611222125/http://biae.clems...
Yeah https://web.archive.org/web/20100611222125/http://biae.clems...
Hmm. I still see nothing about a natural law of having to be offended when I misunderstand a different language. For me personally, the whole context shifts. Does your heart start pumping when you see a photograph of Churchill making the same gesture?
It's hard for me to connect your example of filling gas in Oregon to being reflexively insulted. Is that how you feel in your car, reflexively offended by Oregonian gas stations before your cultural sensitivity has time to resurface? Again, I have to say that I am sure personal differences are strong here, because I don't feel an uncontrollable bodily urge to jump put and fill up the tank within 140-220ms [1] of arriving at a gas station before my consciousness kicks in and I can make decisions again.
[1] From your linked article.
It's hard for me to connect your example of filling gas in Oregon to being reflexively insulted. Is that how you feel in your car, reflexively offended by Oregonian gas stations before your cultural sensitivity has time to resurface? Again, I have to say that I am sure personal differences are strong here, because I don't feel an uncontrollable bodily urge to jump put and fill up the tank within 140-220ms [1] of arriving at a gas station before my consciousness kicks in and I can make decisions again.
[1] From your linked article.
My natural reaction to flicked Vs is to anticipate danger, "it's kicking off Pru", so I felt rather pleased with myself at recognising the intention of the gesture, hey I'm a man of the world, a sophisticated European; the one pint reveals that I'm just another English schmuck tourist. There is pride, and there is a fall, that's why I found it quite funny.
Thanks for the background, and I can certainly relate to trying your best but still being outed as foreigner in no time at all.
What I found is that there seems to be huge difference in cultures about how offended one can be from language (verbal/non-verbal).
Obviously, perceived threat is a different thing altogether!
What I found is that there seems to be huge difference in cultures about how offended one can be from language (verbal/non-verbal).
Obviously, perceived threat is a different thing altogether!
Sorry for being ignorant but sincere question: where / which culture considers the V gesture offensive?
I'm assuming the V gesture you are referring to is the one that consists of holding up both index finger and middle finger, rather than the one with thumb and index finger.
I'm assuming the V gesture you are referring to is the one that consists of holding up both index finger and middle finger, rather than the one with thumb and index finger.
In various countires with relation to the UK Commonwealth, it's equivalent to giving someone the finger. If you do with a bit of an elbow swing it basically translates to "Shove it up your ass"
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#Origins
> This origin legend states that English archers believed that those who were captured by the French had their index and middle fingers cut off so that they could no longer operate their longbows, and that the V sign was used by uncaptured and victorious archers in a display of defiance against the French.
I guess that's all the keywords needed in order read the original comment fully.
... It must be somewhat awkward to play Rock Paper Scissors among friends. LOL
> This origin legend states that English archers believed that those who were captured by the French had their index and middle fingers cut off so that they could no longer operate their longbows, and that the V sign was used by uncaptured and victorious archers in a display of defiance against the French.
I guess that's all the keywords needed in order read the original comment fully.
... It must be somewhat awkward to play Rock Paper Scissors among friends. LOL
It's only flicking the v's if the fingertips are pointing upwards, fingers are apart, and the back of the hand is pointing at the person you're gesturing to. We also call it the "reverse peace sign" as it's exactly like that but with your hand pointing the opposite way. Pointing your hand parallel to the ground like you would use scissors is nice and clear as scissors.
IIRC you aren't supposed to hitchhike with a thumbs up in New Zealand, so I'm guessing we're dealing with a Kiwi. :)
Really? I just moved to NZ a couple of years ago and don't know how to drive, so will be wanting to hitchhike! What is a better gesture?
"I’ve always used the traditional thumb approach (the norm for NZ)."
https://churnewzealand.com/hitchhiking-in-new-zealand/
"I’ve always used the traditional thumb approach (the norm for NZ)."
https://churnewzealand.com/hitchhiking-in-new-zealand/
NZer, have never heard anything about not using thumbs-up for hitchhiking.
I also can't imagine anyone (at least in NZ), who would be otherwise inclined to give you a ride, somehow getting irate about it either.
I also can't imagine anyone (at least in NZ), who would be otherwise inclined to give you a ride, somehow getting irate about it either.
During the Olympics, I noticed that many athletes seemed confused about where to go following their races/runs/performances. It always took them a second to orient and proceed in the direction the volunteers wanted them to go.
I wondered (but never did find pictorial evidence) if it might have to do with the common Japanese gesture for "come this way," which, by happenstance, is almost identical to the rest of the world's gesture for "go away."
https://www.tokyoweekender.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/to...
I wondered (but never did find pictorial evidence) if it might have to do with the common Japanese gesture for "come this way," which, by happenstance, is almost identical to the rest of the world's gesture for "go away."
https://www.tokyoweekender.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/to...
There's a distinction to be made between counting on one's fingers and communicating a number with one's fingers.
You can easily communicate numbers 1 through 10 to just about anyone around the globe by holding up the corresponding number of fingers. But when it comes to 11 and up, you're generally not going to be able to communicate those numbers in a universally recognizable way. (Although "flashing" one's hands to represent intervals of ten is somewhat well understood.)
On the other hand, it's possible to use your fingers to count to numbers higher than 10, using whatever system appeals to you, regardless of whether others can understand it. The article talks about using the segments between each knuckle.
There's even a further distinction to be made here, though, between using your fingers to count and using your fingers to maintain state. You might, for instance, be able to easily use knuckle segments to count. But to maintain state, you need to make some movement with your fingers (e.g. bending a knuckle) with each transition period and then hold that new position for some period of time. And that can be hard to do with many finger positions.
You can easily communicate numbers 1 through 10 to just about anyone around the globe by holding up the corresponding number of fingers. But when it comes to 11 and up, you're generally not going to be able to communicate those numbers in a universally recognizable way. (Although "flashing" one's hands to represent intervals of ten is somewhat well understood.)
On the other hand, it's possible to use your fingers to count to numbers higher than 10, using whatever system appeals to you, regardless of whether others can understand it. The article talks about using the segments between each knuckle.
There's even a further distinction to be made here, though, between using your fingers to count and using your fingers to maintain state. You might, for instance, be able to easily use knuckle segments to count. But to maintain state, you need to make some movement with your fingers (e.g. bending a knuckle) with each transition period and then hold that new position for some period of time. And that can be hard to do with many finger positions.
> You can easily communicate numbers 1 through 10 to just about anyone around the globe by holding up the corresponding number of fingers
For the numbers 6-10 China have hand gestures where number of fingers held up does not correspond to the number.
I was confused by this when I wanted to buy something and the lady crossed her two index fingers.
I took it to mean that the item was not for sale (out of stock), but later learned that this is the hand gesture for the number ten.
For the numbers 6-10 China have hand gestures where number of fingers held up does not correspond to the number.
I was confused by this when I wanted to buy something and the lady crossed her two index fingers.
I took it to mean that the item was not for sale (out of stock), but later learned that this is the hand gesture for the number ten.
For additional context to others, it's the Chinese character for the number 10 (十)
> it's possible to use your fingers to count to numbers
This is tangential, but why do people count to themselves using fingers? Why not just count in your head?
This is tangential, but why do people count to themselves using fingers? Why not just count in your head?
I first learned about this from the regional box art variations for Sonic the Hedgehog 3 (1994):
- JP: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic3-box-jap.jpg
- US: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic3_md_us_cover.jpg
- EU: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:S3-eu-box.jpg
- JP: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic3-box-jap.jpg
- US: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic3_md_us_cover.jpg
- EU: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:S3-eu-box.jpg
When I was young I first realized that there was regional variety to this in the US, from Michael Jordan (he grew up in North Carolina):
2: https://i.imgur.com/J7MaBUq.jpg
3: https://i.imgur.com/wORrZjC.jpg
Where I grew up, several states north of the Carolinas, three is pretty much always the index/fore + middle + ring fingers. Prior to seeing Jordan do that I didn't recall having noticed someone counting / signaling three with the pinky instead of the index.
2: https://i.imgur.com/J7MaBUq.jpg
3: https://i.imgur.com/wORrZjC.jpg
Where I grew up, several states north of the Carolinas, three is pretty much always the index/fore + middle + ring fingers. Prior to seeing Jordan do that I didn't recall having noticed someone counting / signaling three with the pinky instead of the index.
The correct way is to count in binary, and easily reach 1023 without needing a third hand [0].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_binary
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_binary
The first time I saw this, it was a blind person on a train counting stations. Personally, I would need a lot of practice to gain that dexterity.
And with two’s complement, we can even have negative numbers!
And just by touching your toes, you can do signed 10-bit addition and subtraction!
The number 4 may be an issue for some cultures!
So 4 is the numeric equivalent of a raised middle finger.
> and easily reach 1023 without needing a third hand
Given that most people cannot move their ring finger independently of their middle finger, this seems like a stretch.
Given that most people cannot move their ring finger independently of their middle finger, this seems like a stretch.
Try it. It works.
I've tried it. It doesn't work.
I personally can't bend my pinkie without bending the ring finger, not the middle finger.
[deleted]
Number 14 (pinky touching thumb, others raised) doesn't work for me. It hurts a lot.
People’s anatomy differ, and with that also how easy it is to move these digits independently. See for example the answer to this question: https://biology.stackexchange.com/q/60075
Apologies, I didn’t realise people struggled to this extent. I’ve taught many people to count this way and not encountered anybody who struggled, but it was ableist of me to assume that was universal.
Having just finished my commute home, I'm sorry the converse isn't true.
Came here to comment on binary finger counting; found it'd already been said!
I have trouble with some positions due to the ring/pinkie connection, but for me it's more of an internal count anyway, so something like counting a 'down' finger as '1' instead of '0' makes it a lot more comfortable, or even '1' is finger touching a surface, '0' is not - which can involve moving a digit only a few mm or so.
The 1023 thing does require fine motor control of at least ten appendages, though even legs-arms-tongue gets you to 32, if a bit inconveniently.
I have trouble with some positions due to the ring/pinkie connection, but for me it's more of an internal count anyway, so something like counting a 'down' finger as '1' instead of '0' makes it a lot more comfortable, or even '1' is finger touching a surface, '0' is not - which can involve moving a digit only a few mm or so.
The 1023 thing does require fine motor control of at least ten appendages, though even legs-arms-tongue gets you to 32, if a bit inconveniently.
I tried ordering 99 glasses of beer because why not, the waiter took a while and finally arrived holding 792 beers.
got to make sure both parties are using the same endian
I am guilty of having taught that to a five year old during a hiking trip. He is now an engineer.
I taught a 5 year old that 1 + 1 = 10, and they got in trouble at school for arguing with the teacher. Even after explaining that 1 + 1 = 10 in binary specifically, as the teacher was complaining to the parents "whatever that means". The parents asked me to be more careful with my "teaching".
I was taught binary math in elementary school in the mid 70s. The problem was that they had to teach it to the parents too, unless the parents were not able to help their children with homework.
It’s a shame we limit things that way, keeping kids from learning more than their parents.
I get your teacher was dumb, but technically it could be on the right side.
It all depends on whether you were writing it or saying it, "1 + 1 = 10" is true in binary but "one plus one equals ten" is not, not even in binary.
It all depends on whether you were writing it or saying it, "1 + 1 = 10" is true in binary but "one plus one equals ten" is not, not even in binary.
>I get your teacher was dumb, but technically it could be on the right side.
Let's be fair, a 5 year is only in kindergarten, so I would not expect a kindergarten teacher to be fully expecting a 5 year old to be talking about binary or even fully educated in other counting methods than base 10. That doesn't make them dumb. I'm sure that teacher could teach you things without calling you dumb.
Let's be fair, a 5 year is only in kindergarten, so I would not expect a kindergarten teacher to be fully expecting a 5 year old to be talking about binary or even fully educated in other counting methods than base 10. That doesn't make them dumb. I'm sure that teacher could teach you things without calling you dumb.
Err... sorry I don't know said teacher, I was just following along your comment, where you seem to portray the teacher in such way.
You even do it in this comment, condescendingly,
>I would not expect a kindergarten teacher to be [...] fully educated in other counting methods than base 10
Honestly, it's not that big of a deal to know binary or not.
But anyway, that aside, you completely missed the point of my comment. Whew.
You even do it in this comment, condescendingly,
>I would not expect a kindergarten teacher to be [...] fully educated in other counting methods than base 10
Honestly, it's not that big of a deal to know binary or not.
But anyway, that aside, you completely missed the point of my comment. Whew.
Are you saying that my not expecting a kindergarten teacher to be educated in binary math is condescending?
I got your point that 10 in binary is not actually base 10 10, but 2 in base 10. It was just not worth commenting as it was a discussion about a 5 year old conversation not the semantics of math.
I got your point that 10 in binary is not actually base 10 10, but 2 in base 10. It was just not worth commenting as it was a discussion about a 5 year old conversation not the semantics of math.
I mean, I'd want my kindergarten teacher to be focused teaching kindergarteners. I don't want them to be an expert on calculus, just be the best teacher for a kindergartener. Same thing as "i want my IDE to focus on being an IDE, and not add facebook integration".
I feel like making sure the absolute fundamentals are well ingrained in your kid is way more important than trying to teach them binary.
Important stuff like learning the alphabet. How to read simple books. Things like that.
I feel like making sure the absolute fundamentals are well ingrained in your kid is way more important than trying to teach them binary.
Important stuff like learning the alphabet. How to read simple books. Things like that.
That was my point. Expecting a kindergaten teacher to do anything beyond those things you listed is not reasonable. It's great if after teaching a day of kindergartners they can then do an evening teaching college classes, but that's so not the norm. Stating that a teacher at this level is not fully versed in binary is not an insult. It's more insulting to think that someone was able to construe that from my comment.
That was not a condescending comment by my read.
Replace counting in other bases with “theoretical physics” or “woodworking” and it doesn’t read that way either.
I think this xkcd is relevant here: https://xkcd.com/2501/
Replace counting in other bases with “theoretical physics” or “woodworking” and it doesn’t read that way either.
I think this xkcd is relevant here: https://xkcd.com/2501/
I was taught how to count in binary in grade 5, is this not a normal thing that kids learn in school?
I think it depends on what curriculum your school's using; non-base-10 math is a punchline in Tom Lehrer's "New Math" [1]. Common Core might be getting rid of it?
As a side note, comparing the complaints in "New Math" (from 1965) to those offered about Common Core is educational :)
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIKGV2cTgqA
As a side note, comparing the complaints in "New Math" (from 1965) to those offered about Common Core is educational :)
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIKGV2cTgqA
I’m fairly certain I was taught the unary counting system in either kindergarten or 1st grade. And I wasn’t even in an advanced course.
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I like what I got to know as "the Japanese way" to count to 144 on my fingers. I´m sure it´s not exclusive to Japan tho.
Using thumb as a pointer, I count not on the fingers, but their segments. Each finger is 3 segments, which gives 12 per hand. Now, to boost it, one hand is used to count the dozens from the other hand.
Gets me thinking, maybe this is one of the reasons for popularity of 12-based systems in ancient times? Did our ancestors just use their counting fingers better?
From TFA:
> In India, for example, they use the lines between the segments of the fingers to count. This means each digit can represent four numbers and the whole hand can represent 20.
Which is false. This method is indeed "taught" (folk, not academia) in India (and Japan), but it's not the way a majority of natives will actually count in everyday situations.
There are indeed important cultural distinctions re:counting in areas (like tally marks), but articles like these which are plausible yet false (this isn't a shibboleth at all) muddy the waters.
> In India, for example, they use the lines between the segments of the fingers to count. This means each digit can represent four numbers and the whole hand can represent 20.
Which is false. This method is indeed "taught" (folk, not academia) in India (and Japan), but it's not the way a majority of natives will actually count in everyday situations.
There are indeed important cultural distinctions re:counting in areas (like tally marks), but articles like these which are plausible yet false (this isn't a shibboleth at all) muddy the waters.
This might interest you.
"Sexagesimal, also known as base 60 or sexagenary,[1] is a numeral system with sixty as its base. It originated with the ancient Sumerians in the 3rd millennium BC, was passed down to the ancient Babylonians, and is still used—in a modified form—for measuring time, angles, and geographic coordinates. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagesimal
> maybe this is one of the reasons for popularity of 12-based systems in ancient times?
The popularity of 12-based systems is due to the fact that 12 is divisible by 2, 3, and 4.
The popularity of 12-based systems is due to the fact that 12 is divisible by 2, 3, and 4.
That was on my ming when I wrote "one of the".
And a key plot point in Inglourious Basterds.
https://www.businessinsider.com/order-a-beer-like-a-german-2...
https://www.businessinsider.com/order-a-beer-like-a-german-2...
This scene is a particular pet peeve of mine (I know it's a movie, but everyone needs something to be picky about...).
The character played by Fassbender at one point explains his peculiar accent by being born and raised in a village near Piz Palü (an hommage by Tarantino to "White Hell of Piz Palü" a 1929 silent movie). However, this mountain is located in Switzerland, right by the italian border, far away from Germany. Still, his cover is blown by a tiny mistake on how he orders beer while everyone glances over the glaring inconsistency of his birthplace.
The character played by Fassbender at one point explains his peculiar accent by being born and raised in a village near Piz Palü (an hommage by Tarantino to "White Hell of Piz Palü" a 1929 silent movie). However, this mountain is located in Switzerland, right by the italian border, far away from Germany. Still, his cover is blown by a tiny mistake on how he orders beer while everyone glances over the glaring inconsistency of his birthplace.
You could be born in Switzerland to German parents, thus being German (with a funny accent to boot). Germany (at the time) employed jus sanguinis (=your parents matter), not jus soli (=your place of birth matters).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
There had also been quite a few Swiss volunteers that fought in the army and the Waffen-SS.[1]
In the context of the special interest that the film devotes to the subject of language, locating the birthplace of the character near Piz Palü is also a very clever move. It is located in the canton of Graubünden (canton of the Grisons), which is the only trilingual Swiss canton (German, Italian and Romansh).
Another side-note: "White Hell of Piz Palü" is also directly quoted in the film: it is shown in the cinema where the finale takes place. And this again is an hommage to (among others) Leni Riefenstahl, who Tarantino admired very much. She played one of the main roles in "Piz Palü".
[1] https://www.e-periodica.ch/cntmng?pid=sol-003:1994:69::643 (In German)
In the context of the special interest that the film devotes to the subject of language, locating the birthplace of the character near Piz Palü is also a very clever move. It is located in the canton of Graubünden (canton of the Grisons), which is the only trilingual Swiss canton (German, Italian and Romansh).
Another side-note: "White Hell of Piz Palü" is also directly quoted in the film: it is shown in the cinema where the finale takes place. And this again is an hommage to (among others) Leni Riefenstahl, who Tarantino admired very much. She played one of the main roles in "Piz Palü".
[1] https://www.e-periodica.ch/cntmng?pid=sol-003:1994:69::643 (In German)
You can watch the movie on YouTube: https://youtu.be/gJ8B4VH-5gk
Some of the scenes (landscape shots and the avalanche/crevasses action sequences) hold up quite well IMO.
Some of the scenes (landscape shots and the avalanche/crevasses action sequences) hold up quite well IMO.
Still, he would have grown up in a non-German speaking area (they speak either Romansh oder Italian there, depending on which exact village).
This could explain the accent/dialect, but it would definitely raise more eyebrows than ordering a beer with the wrong finger.
This could explain the accent/dialect, but it would definitely raise more eyebrows than ordering a beer with the wrong finger.
Not at the time, they still use jus sanguinis as most of European countries.
Funny I don't use either method to show or count three; I use my pinky (who I'd start counting) and the next two fingers.
Be careful: some people who are in other matters Very Very Smart will then insist you're flashing a 'white power' symbol.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/business/media/jeopardy-h...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/business/media/jeopardy-h...
The bbc article claims in the UK (and “many countries in Europe”) start with the thumb, but the Inglorious Basterds scene seems to contradict that.
The business insider article also claims people start counting with their thumb in Portugal but I start with the index finger and while I’m not sure everyone else does it, I think using the 3 middle fingers to represent the number 3 (like the British spy) is far more common than using the thumb.
The business insider article also claims people start counting with their thumb in Portugal but I start with the index finger and while I’m not sure everyone else does it, I think using the 3 middle fingers to represent the number 3 (like the British spy) is far more common than using the thumb.
I'm Canadian and I'm assuming it's the same as Brits: We start counting with our thumb but if we represent a number less than 5 without counting then we do not use our thumb. That's why it doesn't contradict what happened in Inglourious Basterds.
English here, and yes counting starts with the thumb but going direct to two or three is just fingers. Middle three for three, not pinky and the next two or the shocker. This isn't universal, but in my experience by far the most common way.
Our spoken and written language is a mess of inconsistencies, why shouldn't our numeracy be!
Our spoken and written language is a mess of inconsistencies, why shouldn't our numeracy be!
Canuck here too, I grew up starting with index but I see lots of thumb starters.
If I start counting thumb-1, index-2, middle-3, i can't raise my ring finger without the pinky coming up to properly display 4 fingers up.
If I start counting index-1, middle-2, ring-3, my thumb holds down the pinky to display 3 fingers.
Until just now, I had never tried, so I assume it is a practice thing.
Edit: should have read further in the thread. i'm clearly not the only one
If I start counting index-1, middle-2, ring-3, my thumb holds down the pinky to display 3 fingers.
Until just now, I had never tried, so I assume it is a practice thing.
Edit: should have read further in the thread. i'm clearly not the only one
I was told while in eastern Europe that, in Russia, you signal numbers by tucking fingers. Just the thumb tucked: one, thumb and forefinger: two, a fist: five.
It is all very arbitrary. The Quentin Tarentino scene was very unconvincing. Fassbinder's character was well travelled, and could have any number of reasons for having a different habit. I bet there were and are places in Germany that differ from the common form, and even that match the English convention; and places in England that match Germany's. (But probably not Russia's.)
Similarly, somebody who left their shoe at the scene of a firefight, if not stupid, would toss the other one immediately.
It is all very arbitrary. The Quentin Tarentino scene was very unconvincing. Fassbinder's character was well travelled, and could have any number of reasons for having a different habit. I bet there were and are places in Germany that differ from the common form, and even that match the English convention; and places in England that match Germany's. (But probably not Russia's.)
Similarly, somebody who left their shoe at the scene of a firefight, if not stupid, would toss the other one immediately.
From my experience of growing up and living in Russia, I have not seen anybody showing numbers like this. People do count by tucking fingers but if they show a number to somebody else they show it with straight fingers, starting with the index and ending with the thumb. Could be some regional thing, Russia is pretty big.
This can be fatal - as shown in Tarantino's Inglourious Basterds...
"Three glasses." - Those goddamn people from Piz Palü!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Ckh80mLlQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Ckh80mLlQ
One thing not mentioned is that finger counting methods vary based on context as well as culture. If I'm counting to myself I start with the thumb. If I'm using finger counting as part of body language like by speaking about three points one by one, I start with the index finger.
In <local country>, the countdown for launching rally cars is different from the regular order: 5 - all fingers extended, 4 - thumb bent, 3 - pinky bent, 2 - ring finger retracts, 1 - middle finger bent, 0 - index finger points toward road to signal "go".
Every time I've heard some variation of this, the example is always three. I'm more interested in four. Does the pattern follow through? Because I physically can't hold up 3 fingers and my thumb without the pinky going up to, when I do 3, my thumb is holding my pinky down.
>Because I physically can't hold up 3 fingers and my thumb without the pinky going up to, when I do 3, my thumb is holding my pinky down.
laughs in piano I think I can move multiple fingers independently and concurrently thanks to a lot of piano drills!
laughs in piano I think I can move multiple fingers independently and concurrently thanks to a lot of piano drills!
I think French people would do 4 with just the pinkie down. At least this specific French person does :). In my case that means the ring finger is not perfectly up, but still enough that it's clear it's raised.
From my experience most French people keep only the thumb down to signal “4”. It’s easier to do.
An interesting exception to this is that American Sign Language (ASL) counts differently from normal American cultural hand counting. For example, three involves a thumb, whereas the normal US/UK idiom is only fingers.
Reminds me of that scene in Inglorious Basterds where the spies are outed because of this.
> In India, for example, they use the lines between the segments of the fingers to count.
My mother does this, and additionally used to do arithmetic this way.
She never really taught us how to do math this way.
My mother does this, and additionally used to do arithmetic this way.
She never really taught us how to do math this way.
> In India, for example, they use the lines between the segments of the fingers to count.
> This means each digit can represent four numbers and the whole hand can represent 20.
The first part is true, but not the second part. You use the thumb as a pointer to track the lines on the other 4 fingers. So you count up to 16 on each hand. Besides, the thumb has 1 line segment less than the other fingers.
The first part is true, but not the second part. You use the thumb as a pointer to track the lines on the other 4 fingers. So you count up to 16 on each hand. Besides, the thumb has 1 line segment less than the other fingers.
I think this is open to interpretation. I'm from India but actually count 3 per finger (i.e. the 3 spaces on your finger between the lines), counting up to a max of 12 per hand.
I see only 2 or 3 line segments... also seems difficult to connect thumb to pinky bottom
It is possible to count to 54 on one hand by counting "bump - valley" and by flipping the hand, so to 108 using both.
We (Pakistani family) used to do rosary (mala) on our fingers this way
I’ve always counted starting with the thumb, but use fingers only when showing a value lower than 5. And this is how my family does it too.
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Got 3 beers in Germany when I wanted 2 many, many, times before I learned.
You've piqued my curiosity; what did you think meant 2 that they thought meant 3?
I did index+middle for 2. They would do thumb+index for 2, and thumb+index+middle for 3. They didn't do index+middle for anything other than maybe "peace sign". So from a distance, my "2" would look like "3" to them. It was a rural area in Germany, in the late 80's, early 90's.
Index + middle in an upward movement would probably be taken as something other than peace
No, not likely in 90s in Germany. What you're describing is primarily a UK gesture. (Wikipedia says also known in Ireland, South Africa, Australia, India, etc.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#As_an_insult
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#As_an_insult
No. Outside the U.K. and Ireland, nobody would take that for an insult unless you also use rude language or body language.
I actually use it every now and then, for example ordering 2 beers at a bar.
I actually use it every now and then, for example ordering 2 beers at a bar.
Depends on which way round your hand is -- V with folded fingers/palm facing out, it's the peace/victory sign.
V with back of the hand/knuckles facing out would the insult -- supposedly originating from English archers insulting the French at the battle of Agincourt. According to legend, the French would cut off the index & ring fingers from captured English soldiers so they couldn't draw their bow string. So the English would wave the two fingers in the V formation in the general direction of the French in order to insult them! At least that's the legend anyway ...
https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20...
V with back of the hand/knuckles facing out would the insult -- supposedly originating from English archers insulting the French at the battle of Agincourt. According to legend, the French would cut off the index & ring fingers from captured English soldiers so they couldn't draw their bow string. So the English would wave the two fingers in the V formation in the general direction of the French in order to insult them! At least that's the legend anyway ...
https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20...
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I assume holding index and middle fingers up. With the German way of counting, usually the thumb would be up as well, meaning 3, so it's easily mistaken as a 3 despite only having two fingers up.
Money counting as well:
"How money is counted in different countries"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ
"How money is counted in different countries"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ
Wired has some videos on Youtube interviewing a former spy chief. In it she said one of the things that can give you away as a spy is the way you count with you fingers.
I really like the Chinese way of counting. As far as I remember you can go as high as 99 on both hands.
Still, I'm never able to memorise it, no matter how many times I learn it.
Still, I'm never able to memorise it, no matter how many times I learn it.
Counting money can aslo give you away. Video (1:48) showing different methods: https://youtube.com/watch?v=g87HVlu55mQ
This is bunk. I’m Portuguese and I start by joining the thumb with my pinky, brush it through the other fingers, then raise my thumb as “5”. Nobody I know does that, it’s a personal trait.
My grandmother used to say "well, not all dogs have flees..." It was annoying back then too.