Congress wants AM radio in all new cars – trade groups say that’s a mistake(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
Congress wants AM radio in all new cars – trade groups say that’s a mistake
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/ev-advocates-join-tech-groups-and-automakers-to-oppose-am-radio-mandate/
202 comments
Your comment is so true it hurts. I’m a puerto rican who lived through Hurricane Maria in the island in 2017. The hurricane took out our entire power grid and multiple cell towers for months. After the hurricane the only form of communication in my area was a single radio station and my family could only listen using car radios. Cell service took months to restore in my area. I just remember hearing that lonely radio host’s voice every day for over a week with devastation in his voice as he shared the news coming in of the disaster.
For us, the hurricane was literally an apocalyptic event and I can’t imagine trying to keep my sanity if we didn’t have radios or any communication. I can’t imagine anywhere in the US going through that either.
For us, the hurricane was literally an apocalyptic event and I can’t imagine trying to keep my sanity if we didn’t have radios or any communication. I can’t imagine anywhere in the US going through that either.
As a fellow Puerto Rican who also endured this, wholeheartedly agree
In a total disaster, the only thing barely working is AM radio. I remember even during the hurricane listening to the only radio station available in AM. Their broadcast room was flooding, they were running on a generator and they were still broadcasting and reporting what was going on.
Thinking about it today, listening to that radio station was terrifying. I remember they were taking calls from people almost about to drown from flooding, clamoring for any sort of emergency response… which was unlikely to arrive. It was an apocalyptic moment.
In a total disaster, the only thing barely working is AM radio. I remember even during the hurricane listening to the only radio station available in AM. Their broadcast room was flooding, they were running on a generator and they were still broadcasting and reporting what was going on.
Thinking about it today, listening to that radio station was terrifying. I remember they were taking calls from people almost about to drown from flooding, clamoring for any sort of emergency response… which was unlikely to arrive. It was an apocalyptic moment.
To your last comment. I’m sorry this happened. You are part of the US. It was a tragedy upon a tragedy to watch how the nation let you down.
I also like the implication that 15% of Americans without smartphones are just unworthy of continuing to live in disaster situations.
They probably live with or around other people who have smartphones. The people without smartphones tend to be either really young children living with parents or really old living in nursing homes.
Or older people who dislike technology.
Maybe it's harsh but if you can't be bothered to get equipment necessary for survival why should anyone else care?
What I'd like to see is a polling effort to see what percent of people have and know how to use their AM radio, vs percent with smart phones.
A quick google suggests 87% of the world's population has a smart phone. Less than that percent of people own a car (cause kids dont have cars, maybe access to a car is sufficient?)
Of course all this also comes down to resiliency and the better question of "Why not both?" -- a quick search on alibaba suggests you can get an AM radio for about $2, I doubt it adds more than $2 to a car manufacturer's cost (fully loaded with engineers parts distribution etc)
A quick google suggests 87% of the world's population has a smart phone. Less than that percent of people own a car (cause kids dont have cars, maybe access to a car is sufficient?)
Of course all this also comes down to resiliency and the better question of "Why not both?" -- a quick search on alibaba suggests you can get an AM radio for about $2, I doubt it adds more than $2 to a car manufacturer's cost (fully loaded with engineers parts distribution etc)
Other articles on this topic I’ve read mention EMI being a problem, and so I suspect it’s more than $2. For example, from the Verge in March:
> Ford was joined by BMW, Mazda, Polestar, Rivian, Tesla, Volkswagen, and Volvo in staking out the position that AM radio is incompatible with EVs, citing electromagnetic interference from the powertrain. Indeed, Tesla made this same argument when it removed AM radio from its vehicles back in 2018.
> According to a Vice article from 2016, the problem is when the interference gets picked up by the radio:
>> EVs are powered by a rechargeable battery, electric motor, and a frequency converter that controls how much power the car’s electrical motors put out by turning voltage on and off thousands of times a second, basically chopping up energy. This process causes electromagnetic interference that gets picked up by the radio.
I’m in favor of AM radios in cars
> Ford was joined by BMW, Mazda, Polestar, Rivian, Tesla, Volkswagen, and Volvo in staking out the position that AM radio is incompatible with EVs, citing electromagnetic interference from the powertrain. Indeed, Tesla made this same argument when it removed AM radio from its vehicles back in 2018.
> According to a Vice article from 2016, the problem is when the interference gets picked up by the radio:
>> EVs are powered by a rechargeable battery, electric motor, and a frequency converter that controls how much power the car’s electrical motors put out by turning voltage on and off thousands of times a second, basically chopping up energy. This process causes electromagnetic interference that gets picked up by the radio.
I’m in favor of AM radios in cars
Mitsubishi Electric failed to ship AM car radio. it seems that it's not very easy part. https://www.mitsubishielectric.com/news/2020/pdf/1106.pdf
If it requires more EMI shielding that's a good thing. EM interference isn't just a problem for the car itself. But whatever is around it too.
I have a Tesla from that timeframe and it has an am radio and it just works. Somehow they managed this in 2012. Others can do it too. Software is not always easy but we persist.
EM Shielding is not high-tech by the way, so it's something that could always be done.
What is needed is simply using quality metal cans, shielded cables, metal braided tape etc.
The problem is not the tech. It's cost savings.
What is needed is simply using quality metal cans, shielded cables, metal braided tape etc.
The problem is not the tech. It's cost savings.
If you've ever had to try to explain something to someone on how to use a smartphone in a rush, it can be absolutely painful.
Whereas in an emergency situation the cop can lean in the window, turn the car radio on to the correct AM frequency, and tell the driver to listen for updates.
Whereas in an emergency situation the cop can lean in the window, turn the car radio on to the correct AM frequency, and tell the driver to listen for updates.
If you need someone to explain to you why you should care about other human beings, you might be the problem.
That's not what I said though is it? I said if someone cannot be bothered to do the bare minimum to survive why should anyone care about that plight? I didn't say if someone (physically / mentally) cannot do the bare minimum. It's like if you're starving to death and there's a perfectly prepared meal right in front of you. It's healthy, free, and clean. All you have to do is eat it. Should anyone care if you don't eat it and suffer the consequences? No.
Smartphones are certainly not "necessary for survival" by any means.
I didn't mention smartphones. I said equipment necessary for survival.
So if a disaster strikes and we meet and i have more equipment than you do I will be sure to remind you of this post as i walk away leaving you desperate.
Because you can't fucking afford it. Not everybody makes 7 figures.
I don't agree with previous post but I don't make 7 figures and still own both a car and a phone.
In the US, avg income is something like 55k - so 5.5 figures?, but most people manage a car and phone. But we can't design society assuming everyone has one of course.
The smartphone is a government spy device so its not surprising they want to make more reasons to get one.
The people who live in areas prone to natural disaster all own portable radios specifically because other forms of getting info are unreliable. Your edge cases aren't something that needs to be addressed because the people involved have already addressed them without resorting to "autos".
Indeed. An AM radio for emergencies should be part of your emergency kit, not your car. If you can't use your car because there's no fuel, but you need to move, say evacuate, that AM radio in your car is no longer useful for getting info.
There are alerts that I'd like to receive on my cellphone, but where I live I will be spammed with persistent, loud alerts that genuinely are disruptive to my life. Constant amber alerts for places hundreds of miles away. The last message I received was an all out manhunt looking for someone who had shot a cop over 150miles away on the other side of my metropolitan area. After that I turned off emergency alerts completely. They bothered 7 million people with that alert alone.
If my phone only told me of tornado warnings, hurricane warnings, evacuation orders, etc I'd leave it on all the time. I'd like to know these things, but I can't have both knowledge of these alerts and sanity due to local government's irresistible appetite for bothering me every time something barely news worthy happens.
If my phone only told me of tornado warnings, hurricane warnings, evacuation orders, etc I'd leave it on all the time. I'd like to know these things, but I can't have both knowledge of these alerts and sanity due to local government's irresistible appetite for bothering me every time something barely news worthy happens.
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Keep in mind that the article is about what a "trade group" wants. Trade groups are about what a narrow spectrum of society wants. They have their interest which is rarely the same as what's best for our society as a whole. I ,for one, will ignore the information in this article. It's not useful to me.
> to me AM is a must for dire emergencies
I agree with this specific part, but you haven't explained why you think it needs to be built into your car instead of just having a standalone radio that you can carry with you.
I agree with this specific part, but you haven't explained why you think it needs to be built into your car instead of just having a standalone radio that you can carry with you.
Here is a real question: why are there not radio receivers in smartphones? We have hardware to pickup all six of the positioning constellations but there's no radio? Phones are plenty large enough to fit in an AM, FM, and TV antenna, and at minimum would be valuable for emergency reports.
It's actually hard to fit an FM antenna inside a phone. A quarter wave antenna is 2.5 feet long. Most phones with radio tuners required you to plug in headphones, and used the headphone cable as an antenna!
I recall that my wired earphone/headphone acts as an antenna for the LG v20 but I think it was for FM but no AM. I can't check again because I removed the stock OS for LineageOS.
Many smartphones do have FM radio receivers, they just don't include an app to use them.
The financial incentive just isn't there given that people will be using Spotify, Youtube, Netflix, etc.
The financial incentive just isn't there given that people will be using Spotify, Youtube, Netflix, etc.
I live in a market that doesn’t have local AM stations, so short of lightning strikes and transmission line RF noise, I don’t have much to listen to.
I do get DX stations from the US due to ionospheric prop, but this would be useless in a life-or-limb situation, or if there was EMP.
I do get DX stations from the US due to ionospheric prop, but this would be useless in a life-or-limb situation, or if there was EMP.
While it is true that there are other modes of emergency communications, AM radio relies on nearly zero infrastructure integrity.
As long as a broadcast station has diesel or batteries and hasn’t burned to the ground, it can continue to deliver urgent and life saving information to millions of people over hundreds of kilometers, despite the complete failure of all other intermediary infrastructure.
An high quality AM radio costs about 25 cents to integrate into existing infotainment systems, plus the cost of the coax and antenna. Realistically speaking, we are talking about less than 5 dollars in additional expense at scale.
That’s cheap for a communication system that is extremely robust in the face of the worst possible types of disasters and emergencies.
Cell phone and data networks are fragile by comparison and subject to congestion and other issues. An AM radio in every cellphone would be a software-only fix, as long as you used the headphone or charging cable as an antenna lead.
Software defined radio means just about any modern microcontroller can act as a radio receiver over a broad spectrum of wavelengths for Pennie’s in additional components.
This is about capture of the infotainment environment in vehicles, not the one to five dollars needed to include AM broadcast technology.
As long as a broadcast station has diesel or batteries and hasn’t burned to the ground, it can continue to deliver urgent and life saving information to millions of people over hundreds of kilometers, despite the complete failure of all other intermediary infrastructure.
An high quality AM radio costs about 25 cents to integrate into existing infotainment systems, plus the cost of the coax and antenna. Realistically speaking, we are talking about less than 5 dollars in additional expense at scale.
That’s cheap for a communication system that is extremely robust in the face of the worst possible types of disasters and emergencies.
Cell phone and data networks are fragile by comparison and subject to congestion and other issues. An AM radio in every cellphone would be a software-only fix, as long as you used the headphone or charging cable as an antenna lead.
Software defined radio means just about any modern microcontroller can act as a radio receiver over a broad spectrum of wavelengths for Pennie’s in additional components.
This is about capture of the infotainment environment in vehicles, not the one to five dollars needed to include AM broadcast technology.
AM is also one of the easiest bits of infrastructure to cobble together: you need an oscillator, an audio amplification circuit, a microphone, and a length of wire. The circuit is so simple anyone can build one DIY or with a hobby kit (though obviously the range on a low power device is tiny).
Like many other authors looking to sensationalize and editorialize, this author forgets that poor people exist and forgets that rural areas exist. Also, the author seems be unaware that an emergency could make existing infrastructure unusable.
AM radio's value for emergency situations is that it can be received literally hundreds of miles from the transmitter.
What're the reasons for NOT including AM? The only thing I found is mention that including it will "hinder progress". What progress? Since when does including the most basic, tiny bit of functionality somehow "hinder progress"? Is there literally any other reason at all? Please, someone, tell me.
Is this really a news piece if the author can't even come up with the slightest reason beyond the most specious bit of bullshit from a self-interest group?
AM radio's value for emergency situations is that it can be received literally hundreds of miles from the transmitter.
What're the reasons for NOT including AM? The only thing I found is mention that including it will "hinder progress". What progress? Since when does including the most basic, tiny bit of functionality somehow "hinder progress"? Is there literally any other reason at all? Please, someone, tell me.
Is this really a news piece if the author can't even come up with the slightest reason beyond the most specious bit of bullshit from a self-interest group?
> What're the reasons for NOT including AM? The only thing I found is mention that including it will "hinder progress". What progress?
It's always about manufacturing cost.
Automakers will trim a BOM to save 60 cents on a car.
If they have the data that AM is not a 'requested'/desired feature when purchasing a car then of course they would want to trim it.
Also AM radio imposes quite a few extra design constraints in terms of EMI, in a vehicle that by definition is extremely electrically noisy.
It's always about manufacturing cost.
Automakers will trim a BOM to save 60 cents on a car.
If they have the data that AM is not a 'requested'/desired feature when purchasing a car then of course they would want to trim it.
Also AM radio imposes quite a few extra design constraints in terms of EMI, in a vehicle that by definition is extremely electrically noisy.
There are areas in the US that do not have cell/data coverage where important road information updates (think mountain pass conditions) are broadcast over AM radio.
Vast areas of the Americas are barren of any FM radio reception but receive AM well. The manufacturers that want to drop AM radio seem to find that fact inconvenient.
I've seen three arguments in favour of AM:
1. Range
2. Bouncing off of ionosphere
3. Easy to DIY a radio.
I would guess the first two have nothing to do with the type of modulation, but with the frequency bands being used and/or the transmitter power. That is: I would guess it'd work equally well for frequency modulated radio signals broadcasted on those bands with the same transmitters. So those arguments are in favour of using certain specs for broadcasting, but don't seem to require any specific modulation.
(Would love to hear if that's incorrect though)
I'm not sure about DIY'ing a radio - no clue how the modulation complicated things. That could well be a reason favoring AM.
1. Range
2. Bouncing off of ionosphere
3. Easy to DIY a radio.
I would guess the first two have nothing to do with the type of modulation, but with the frequency bands being used and/or the transmitter power. That is: I would guess it'd work equally well for frequency modulated radio signals broadcasted on those bands with the same transmitters. So those arguments are in favour of using certain specs for broadcasting, but don't seem to require any specific modulation.
(Would love to hear if that's incorrect though)
I'm not sure about DIY'ing a radio - no clue how the modulation complicated things. That could well be a reason favoring AM.
On your points:
1. Yes, with analogue signals, given equal ERP (Effective Radiated Power) levels, FM modulation breaks down with a ''cliff effect'' (suddenly) while AM blasts on. Typically, on the receiver end as the range increases, an FM Radio stereo signal will drop to mono for a while, then just disappear even if a carrier is still detected in a sensitive signal meter. With HD Radio digital FM, weak signal will cause an abrupt loss of any subchannel(s) and reversion to only analogue before the cliff effect takes place. Again, analogue AM signals barrel on until they simply diffuse into the background noise. HD Radio digital AM signals drop to analogue as the range increases, which is why none of them are run digital-only.
2. Yes, AM band signals bounce around a bit in the evening sky, so AM Radio stations often have nighttime power reductions specified in their licenses. The FM Radio band can experience its own effects like tropospheric ducting (see any number of radio and TV DXing sites for much deeper info) but with nowhere near the predicatability and stability of strong AM signals being bounced.
3. Yep. See the crystal radio and ferrite coil comments elsewhere in this thread.
Other:
Regarding the modulation being transmitted on a particular band, it has a lot to do with tolerance of interference. A perfect example comparing FM and AM on the same band is when the North American analogue TV standard NTSC was being devised, which originally used all AM modulation, but the audio portion of the signal was found to be so disrupted by the video portion that the relatively new FM modulation was used for the audio instead. In AM radio there is only just the audio, so in effect the problems of interference at the source are gone and pushed out to the receiver end as being an accepted norm. It used to be common for charging and ignition systems of cars and trucks that were of the old breaker point type to generate clicking, tapping, and whining on the AM band (the title of Frank Zappa's ''Dinah-Moe Humm'' is a reference to the problem of dynamo or magneto noise from DC generators) but shielding, AC alternators, and the use of condensers and better materials by the automakers solved those problems. Home AM radios would pick up refrigerator solenoid clicks and other such noises, which could be very problematic in apartment blocks, but again better shielding and other techniques in consumer electric devices were soon practiced. Nevertheless, environmental interference on the AM radio band has always been a problem to this day. FM radio has its own problems with interference, but typically in congested urban areas in which ''picket fencing'' from large structures can occur. Digital radio, like iBiquity's IBOC HD Radio system, uses error correction and buffering to combat such interference problems. So, you could transmit either AM or FM modulation on your signal on a given band, but you'd better be ready for the interference consquences of each.
1. Yes, with analogue signals, given equal ERP (Effective Radiated Power) levels, FM modulation breaks down with a ''cliff effect'' (suddenly) while AM blasts on. Typically, on the receiver end as the range increases, an FM Radio stereo signal will drop to mono for a while, then just disappear even if a carrier is still detected in a sensitive signal meter. With HD Radio digital FM, weak signal will cause an abrupt loss of any subchannel(s) and reversion to only analogue before the cliff effect takes place. Again, analogue AM signals barrel on until they simply diffuse into the background noise. HD Radio digital AM signals drop to analogue as the range increases, which is why none of them are run digital-only.
2. Yes, AM band signals bounce around a bit in the evening sky, so AM Radio stations often have nighttime power reductions specified in their licenses. The FM Radio band can experience its own effects like tropospheric ducting (see any number of radio and TV DXing sites for much deeper info) but with nowhere near the predicatability and stability of strong AM signals being bounced.
3. Yep. See the crystal radio and ferrite coil comments elsewhere in this thread.
Other:
Regarding the modulation being transmitted on a particular band, it has a lot to do with tolerance of interference. A perfect example comparing FM and AM on the same band is when the North American analogue TV standard NTSC was being devised, which originally used all AM modulation, but the audio portion of the signal was found to be so disrupted by the video portion that the relatively new FM modulation was used for the audio instead. In AM radio there is only just the audio, so in effect the problems of interference at the source are gone and pushed out to the receiver end as being an accepted norm. It used to be common for charging and ignition systems of cars and trucks that were of the old breaker point type to generate clicking, tapping, and whining on the AM band (the title of Frank Zappa's ''Dinah-Moe Humm'' is a reference to the problem of dynamo or magneto noise from DC generators) but shielding, AC alternators, and the use of condensers and better materials by the automakers solved those problems. Home AM radios would pick up refrigerator solenoid clicks and other such noises, which could be very problematic in apartment blocks, but again better shielding and other techniques in consumer electric devices were soon practiced. Nevertheless, environmental interference on the AM radio band has always been a problem to this day. FM radio has its own problems with interference, but typically in congested urban areas in which ''picket fencing'' from large structures can occur. Digital radio, like iBiquity's IBOC HD Radio system, uses error correction and buffering to combat such interference problems. So, you could transmit either AM or FM modulation on your signal on a given band, but you'd better be ready for the interference consquences of each.
Thank you! That was a very extensive and informative reply.
> (think mountain pass conditions) are broadcast over AM radio
This isn't the scientific theory, but I drive the mountains a lot and AM consistently dies much sooner than FM.
Can't explain it, but 100% true.
EDIT: I live in Salt Like City area and drive through the Wasatch Range on a near weekly basis. # of receivable AM stations goes to zero nearly immediately.
This isn't the scientific theory, but I drive the mountains a lot and AM consistently dies much sooner than FM.
Can't explain it, but 100% true.
EDIT: I live in Salt Like City area and drive through the Wasatch Range on a near weekly basis. # of receivable AM stations goes to zero nearly immediately.
Generally AM is used in mountainous areas because it's MUCH cheaper than FM, and those areas don't have the population density to make FM stations viable.
It's also used for natural parks, and anywhere you might need updated, local, information, again, because it's so cheap and because receiving is so easy.
It's also used for natural parks, and anywhere you might need updated, local, information, again, because it's so cheap and because receiving is so easy.
AM can be untrustworthy in mountains too. Many factors play in such as how the landscape is actually laid out, the make-up of the rock in the mountain. How signals bounce off the rock, etc. It for sure isn't fool proof. I wouldn't think that much better than AM unless your close to the tower. AM's big advantage is being able to travel farther on less power, but the low frequencies don't have good penetration power. This is why the Navy uses radios that runs on 900+ MHz for shipboard radio, 900 MHz (UHF range) has less distance, but better penetrating power through steel decks. Compared to frequencies that AM operates (HF range). Then there are atmospheric conditions and the cycle of the sun. At a solar maximum sure, but at a solar minimum, probably not.
Day time vs night time? In the evening while camping in Canada's north in flat or mountainous terrain I've sat beside a fire with a portable radio and tuned to certain high power U.S. stations on the AM radio band. The locals will tell you it is not uncommon. As for reception in a moving vehicle in the daytime, any number of fields or other conditions may be causing the dropouts but in general AM radio propagates vastly farther than FM for a given Effective Radiated Power range specified in the station's license.
Personally, I’d never buy a car without AM radio. It’s often the only signal available when out in the wilderness, and even within civilization it’s the only readily accessible chunk of the EM spectrum that seems to still allow free speech. (edit: would love to hear people’s experience with CB/shortwave/ham/etc radio)
I don’t know that we need legislation guaranteeing it, but I’d hope the invisible hand of the market sides with me anyways.
That said I don’t see myself getting a new car regardless, at least not one made after the law requiring a television screen in your field of view while operating multi ton machinery at 60+ mph was put in place.
I don’t know that we need legislation guaranteeing it, but I’d hope the invisible hand of the market sides with me anyways.
That said I don’t see myself getting a new car regardless, at least not one made after the law requiring a television screen in your field of view while operating multi ton machinery at 60+ mph was put in place.
I would buy a car without an AM radio. In fact I'd buy one without FM or AM. I always use my phone (or ham/cb radio) for audio entertainment, and never do i ever turn on the actual radio.
that said, a crank AM/FM radio lives in the trunk with my other emergency/contingency stuff (first aid, jumper cables, fixaflat, reflective thingies, etc)
that said, a crank AM/FM radio lives in the trunk with my other emergency/contingency stuff (first aid, jumper cables, fixaflat, reflective thingies, etc)
Me too, I think that's the disconnect. The very last thing I expect my car to do is be a "society has collapsed" last resort of communication. I have a bag of emergency supplies in my trunk I've had since my dad got it for me when I was 16 that includes a portable battery/hand crank radio. My radio has sat in every car I've owned. So the trade of having n+1 am radios over my lifetime or 1 comes out better for not including it in the car.
I would honestly much rather institutionalize my dad, have cars come with an emergency supplies kit if you don't already have one. Make everyone better prepared and waste less.
I would honestly much rather institutionalize my dad, have cars come with an emergency supplies kit if you don't already have one. Make everyone better prepared and waste less.
I’m wondering where you are that there is free speech on AM radio. Stations have licenses granted by the government, and stations get fined if they broadcast anything untoward. Any sort of wired communication has freer speech than that.
USA. Regarding the government, from 10pm to 6am the only thing prohibited is “Obscene content”, which is that which “appeals to an average person's prurient interest; depicts or describes sexual conduct in a "patently offensive" way; and, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value”.
I haven’t yet found myself in want of that sort of material.
At least not in audio-only form…
https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/obscene-indecent-and-pr...
I haven’t yet found myself in want of that sort of material.
At least not in audio-only form…
https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/obscene-indecent-and-pr...
I was going to ask the same thing... it's hard to understand that viewpoint, in my mind broadcast radio is one of the least free forms of speech that exists. Most of us would get fined for broadcasting a typical lunch conversation.
I was specifically comparing it to other forms of broadcast em radiation, obviously an E2E encrypted signal conversation will allow you to say more, but both the audience and stage are far smaller.
Specifically, in the “wild west” hours (10-6) many AM stations will open up the phone lines to start an open dialogue with anyone who cares to join in, regarding just about anything they care to discuss. The types of people that call in and the topics they bring up are often very different from what you encounter online, and certainly miles away from what you’ll see on network television or any other form of mass media.
Specifically, in the “wild west” hours (10-6) many AM stations will open up the phone lines to start an open dialogue with anyone who cares to join in, regarding just about anything they care to discuss. The types of people that call in and the topics they bring up are often very different from what you encounter online, and certainly miles away from what you’ll see on network television or any other form of mass media.
Probably relevant to this opinion is that AM radio is a cesspool of blatant conservative lies and rage bait. It's what the angriest folks on the right pay attention to. That's why it's "Free speech" despite being the single most regulated form of communication.
No other form of "speech" needs a license, yet they think it's the free-ist there is.
No other form of "speech" needs a license, yet they think it's the free-ist there is.
Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.
> AM radio is a cesspool of blatant conservative lies and rage bait
That exists to be sure, but it most certainly does not describe the entire spectrum across the entire country.
> It's what the angriest folks on the right pay attention to.
Some might, but there's plenty online who are much angrier. Do we condemn the whole internet as well?
> That's why it's "Free speech" despite being the single most regulated form of communication.
I can think of many more regulated forms of communication, for instance any S1 filing. The only thing you can't say on the radio during wild west hours is overtly sexual content.
> No other form of "speech" needs a license
Plenty of other areas need a license, for instance the entire rest of the electromagnetic spectrum, barring a few small holdouts.
> yet they think it's the free-ist there is.
It certainly provides the most-channel hours during which the microphone is open to the most people to be broadcast to the most listeners. I openly admit other forms of communication allow for more types of content, but none so freely-accessible to both listeners and speakers.
> AM radio is a cesspool of blatant conservative lies and rage bait
That exists to be sure, but it most certainly does not describe the entire spectrum across the entire country.
> It's what the angriest folks on the right pay attention to.
Some might, but there's plenty online who are much angrier. Do we condemn the whole internet as well?
> That's why it's "Free speech" despite being the single most regulated form of communication.
I can think of many more regulated forms of communication, for instance any S1 filing. The only thing you can't say on the radio during wild west hours is overtly sexual content.
> No other form of "speech" needs a license
Plenty of other areas need a license, for instance the entire rest of the electromagnetic spectrum, barring a few small holdouts.
> yet they think it's the free-ist there is.
It certainly provides the most-channel hours during which the microphone is open to the most people to be broadcast to the most listeners. I openly admit other forms of communication allow for more types of content, but none so freely-accessible to both listeners and speakers.
Funny how you sound exactly like a former right wing talk-radio fan neighbor I had.
The only change would be in the dog-whistle words he would use and the media.
Change AM radio for Hollywood, right for left, conservative for woke and you both are basically the same.
The only change would be in the dog-whistle words he would use and the media.
Change AM radio for Hollywood, right for left, conservative for woke and you both are basically the same.
Personally I'd buy whatever car I want and add a radio if I cared that much. I'm not so single issue I would force a limitation on myself like that. But then having grown up in the USA from the 70s to now I love cars way more than I love AM radio.
Most new cars are so tightly integrated to make replacing the radio a non-option, at least not economically while preserving the same ease of use.
But they all finally have AUX inputs so you can plug in any portable radio you like.
Sure, but then you have different knobs for tuning am vs fm, different scan buttons, and you have to find a place to stash the box and antenna. I’d consider going through that for something like CB radio, but if I can have it built in that’s clearly preferable.
Shortwave is regulated like AM/FM. Supposedly pirate stations appear temporarily.
Ham radio is, and always been regulated. No obscenity but they don’t enforce it. Uses of ham radio are limited: no commercial use, no broadcasting, and no encryption.
CB is open. It has same obscenity rules but not enforced. They don’t enforce the power limits. But CB has the lowest range of line-of-sight.
FCC doesn’t enforce rules because they don’t care, partly cause dwindling numbers use them. If the FCC card, they could enforce heavily. Array of SDRs listening to the whole band and pinpointing problems.
Ham radio is, and always been regulated. No obscenity but they don’t enforce it. Uses of ham radio are limited: no commercial use, no broadcasting, and no encryption.
CB is open. It has same obscenity rules but not enforced. They don’t enforce the power limits. But CB has the lowest range of line-of-sight.
FCC doesn’t enforce rules because they don’t care, partly cause dwindling numbers use them. If the FCC card, they could enforce heavily. Array of SDRs listening to the whole band and pinpointing problems.
I’m not as interested in regulation as the overall quality and variety of discussion. CB seems appealing in that regard, though I have no experience with it.
> It’s often the only signal available when out in the wilderness
I've found satellite / XM radio to be far more reliable when driving in remote mountainous parts of the Sierras.
I've found satellite / XM radio to be far more reliable when driving in remote mountainous parts of the Sierras.
This seems like a strange hill for automotive manufacturers to take a stand on: I can't imagine that the bill of materials for the AM radio is anything but tiny.
I believe the issue is more that the increasing amount of EM noise in the AM band from electric auto components (particularly EV power inverters) means they would have to invest more engineering in to filtering that noise out.
> means they would have to invest more engineering in to filtering that noise out.
Maybe they could take some of the money they're wasting making horrible things like touchscreen controls and use that to do some useful engineering instead.
Maybe they could take some of the money they're wasting making horrible things like touchscreen controls and use that to do some useful engineering instead.
And here I was, thinking they all did touchscreens because they were way cheaper and can easily work across different car models
Volkswagen have RCD head units that are compatible between VW and Škoda cars. RCD/RNS 210, 300, 310, 320, 330, 360, 510, 560, etc are all interchangeable and some are touchscreen-based, others are button-based. I think they also do the same for SEAT and Cupra cars, though head units have different models.
I'm not so sure compatibility with the car is the reason. Maybe it's more about maintaining one branch of software for more head units.
I'm not so sure compatibility with the car is the reason. Maybe it's more about maintaining one branch of software for more head units.
Yes, I should have said "actually useful to the customers".
What are the customers going to do, buy someone else's car that also has a terrible touch screen from the same manufacturer?
American businesses are hell bent of ignoring anything but the dollar sign at the bottom of the balance sheet, and since they all use the exact same value and prioritization system, they can all do the exact same thing without technically colluding, preventing any consumer from ever doing the free market thing and buying something better.
American businesses are hell bent of ignoring anything but the dollar sign at the bottom of the balance sheet, and since they all use the exact same value and prioritization system, they can all do the exact same thing without technically colluding, preventing any consumer from ever doing the free market thing and buying something better.
> What are the customers going to do, buy someone else's car that also has a terrible touch screen from the same manufacturer?
Well, what I do (not only because of this, but those touch screens certainly contribute) is to not buy new cars.
Well, what I do (not only because of this, but those touch screens certainly contribute) is to not buy new cars.
I'm with you on that
> […] means they would have to invest more engineering in to filtering that noise out.
Wouldn't this mostly be a one-time charge, and then just cookie-cutter the solution going forward?
(I say this as someone living in Toronto, Canada, where we have streetcars/trams with overhead wires, which play havoc with (AM) radio when they go by.)
Wouldn't this mostly be a one-time charge, and then just cookie-cutter the solution going forward?
(I say this as someone living in Toronto, Canada, where we have streetcars/trams with overhead wires, which play havoc with (AM) radio when they go by.)
That's the reason, yes. That makes cars mote expensive.
On the other side there are levels for unwanted radio emissions, how do the cars pass them? How do cheap cell phone chargers pass them? Or is nobody looking at this?
On the other side there are levels for unwanted radio emissions, how do the cars pass them? How do cheap cell phone chargers pass them? Or is nobody looking at this?
Compliance can be easy if you're designing a form of Faraday cage. Just make sure the car captures enough of the noise within its frame and you've got a pretty good start. Your car will comply with most (far from all) EM regulations as long as it doesn't disturb things outside the car.
The AM radio exists within the car. It probably even exists within the parts of the car that normally just get a metal box around it to shield the components. It's also very sensitive by its nature.
It's hardly an impossible feat, but car manufacturers will save every penny they can. Pretending to be "on your side" against the damn oppressive government forcing them to build provisions for areas without cell reception will probably also score some points with the public which mostly lives in areas where you don't need AM radio for important information.
The AM radio exists within the car. It probably even exists within the parts of the car that normally just get a metal box around it to shield the components. It's also very sensitive by its nature.
It's hardly an impossible feat, but car manufacturers will save every penny they can. Pretending to be "on your side" against the damn oppressive government forcing them to build provisions for areas without cell reception will probably also score some points with the public which mostly lives in areas where you don't need AM radio for important information.
> Compliance can be easy if you're designing a form of Faraday cage. Just make sure the car captures enough of the noise within its frame and you've got a pretty good start. Your car will comply with most (far from all) EM regulations as long as it doesn't disturb things outside the car.
This complies with existing regulations. The proposed regulations state the AM radio needs to work from within the car. So this wouldn't be sufficient according to the proposed rules.
> It's hardly an impossible feat, but car manufacturers will save every penny they can.
Good? I don't want to pay a tax on every new car purchase in order to subsidize owners of AM spectrum and their rapidly dwindling customer base.
This complies with existing regulations. The proposed regulations state the AM radio needs to work from within the car. So this wouldn't be sufficient according to the proposed rules.
> It's hardly an impossible feat, but car manufacturers will save every penny they can.
Good? I don't want to pay a tax on every new car purchase in order to subsidize owners of AM spectrum and their rapidly dwindling customer base.
> The AM radio exists within the car. It probably even exists within the parts of the car that normally just get a metal box around it to shield the components. It
When I was young I remember mopeda creating interfernces as far as 500 meters from the TV antenna. Car manufactureres managed to completely quieten that RF noise. So I would say it's doable.
When I was young I remember mopeda creating interfernces as far as 500 meters from the TV antenna. Car manufactureres managed to completely quieten that RF noise. So I would say it's doable.
> How do cheap cell phone chargers pass them? Or is nobody looking at this?
You will build a prototype with all the filters and let it pass EMI tests in national laboratory. Then you will start supplying consumers with much cheaper electronics but in same package like your expensive prototype. Who is going to look into ultrasound welded plastic box? Nobody.
You will build a prototype with all the filters and let it pass EMI tests in national laboratory. Then you will start supplying consumers with much cheaper electronics but in same package like your expensive prototype. Who is going to look into ultrasound welded plastic box? Nobody.
> On the other side there are levels for unwanted radio emissions, how do the cars pass them? How do cheap cell phone chargers pass them? Or is nobody looking at this?
Regulators do pay attention to automotive components. I'm sure some of the cheap chargers don't bother with FCC Certification Testing.
The TL;DR is that unintentional and even intentional radiation must remain under certain field strength and/or power limits. That's why you're allowed to use those little aux-to-FM radio dongles to transmit on licensed spectrum, for example.
A "useful lie" explanation of the rules goes something like: "If the interference generated by the car stays within a very small radius (say, the car itself, or less than a few meters around the car) then the FCC doesn't care."
Regulators do pay attention to automotive components. I'm sure some of the cheap chargers don't bother with FCC Certification Testing.
The TL;DR is that unintentional and even intentional radiation must remain under certain field strength and/or power limits. That's why you're allowed to use those little aux-to-FM radio dongles to transmit on licensed spectrum, for example.
A "useful lie" explanation of the rules goes something like: "If the interference generated by the car stays within a very small radius (say, the car itself, or less than a few meters around the car) then the FCC doesn't care."
Good. With a fairly modest amateur radio setup I can pick up electric and hybrid cars moving around half a kilometer away, without really trying.
That's helpful context, thank you!
This is not about the BOM for AM radio components. It's about sidestepping the R&D costs and BOM costs of the stuff needed to keep electric motors, switching power supplies, etc. in new electric vehicle products from murdering the low end of the radio frequency spectrum.
The radio costs very little, but the antenna needed for AM has to be much larger than for FM to get similar performance. I can imagine that auto manufacturers would love to get rid of the cost of installing the antenna by only supporting Bluetooth.
AM radio antennae of the ferrite coil or rod variety are tiny and have been in widespread use for over a century.
http://www.hard-core-dx.com/nordicdx/antenna/loop/amloop.htm...
If locating it within the electric vehicle's superstructure is not suitable to the manufacturer it is not difficult to put one in a stubby sharkfin roof mounting as is done with GPS, mobile phone, and satellite radio antennae.
http://www.hard-core-dx.com/nordicdx/antenna/loop/amloop.htm...
If locating it within the electric vehicle's superstructure is not suitable to the manufacturer it is not difficult to put one in a stubby sharkfin roof mounting as is done with GPS, mobile phone, and satellite radio antennae.
to the best of my knowledge, the issue is EVs emitting frequencies that interfere with AM radio, so instead of adding shielding or figuring out how to retain the integrity of the AM signal, they've opted to just remove the antennae all together.
You can't sell AM radio subscriptions, I would imagine the demographic that listens to AM would likely pay for something in its place.
Originally it was a diode, a coil and a speaker. They're more complicated these days. But yes the attraction was simplicity.
If you want a challenge, implement a superheterodyne signal processing stack in GNUradio or python.
Seems odd to let businesses and manufacturers determine their own pricing incentives to you?
Consider how this will silence Conservative talk radio and it might then make sense.
The co-sponser of the bill interviewed for the article is a Democrat, so this doesn’t seem politically motivated.
If you're referring to the far right rabble rousing, that's also on FM these days. It doesn't really make sense to refer to a movement trying to tear down US institutions as "conservative".
See also previous discussion, "Ford to drop AM radio in new models, except commercial vehicles":
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35416627
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35416627
Didn't even realize they were making cars without AM. How else am I supposed to listen to local sports and bluegrass? Tape a radio to my freaking dash? Some of yall sound like you've never met a rural person in your life. The BBC world service mirror in my city is on AM for pete sake.
I have no preference either way to keep or get rid of AM radio, but I have to wonder, do people under 30 even know what AM radio is or how to tune into it? Just like with manual transmissions and cursive writing, it's probably something they've never had any need to do. Does it help in an emergency if you not only don't know how to do it, but also don't know to do it. I was born in the 70s and listened to plenty of AM radio, but for the last 30+ years AM radio has basically meant "low quality far right talk and religious programming maybe with some country music on the side." I haven't even thought of turning on AM radio in literally decades.
I often see signs instructing to tune to whatever AM for weather info, so I don't think it's that far fetched. Kids learning to read ask questions about stuff they see.
And FWIW, I was in line for a drive thru PCR covid test in late 2020 at a fair ground and they were broadcasting the instructions on an AM station, informing us by sign to tune in.
And FWIW, I was in line for a drive thru PCR covid test in late 2020 at a fair ground and they were broadcasting the instructions on an AM station, informing us by sign to tune in.
In my state (Washington) we have signs over most of the coastal highways and mountain passes saying "tune to XXXX AM when lights are flashing". So I am certain under 30's in Washington State know this.
Where I live, the women's sports is on the AM radio when men's is on the FM band owned by the same station. There's also a BBC World Service mirror on AM. There's also a lot of non-English AM radio in the city I grew up in. I am under 30 and have used AM for these purposes quite often. Like a stone with lots of life underneath - just because something looks unused on the surface doesn't mean there isn't a bustling community.
I turned on AM during a cross country road trip. It was fun exploring for an hour before switching back to bluetooth.
[deleted]
Meanwhile in Europe: https://www.worlddab.org/dab/emergency-warning
Oh, and also https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-em... for good measure (unrelated).
Oh, and also https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/security-and-em... for good measure (unrelated).
I also don't listen to FM much anymore, but it may be worth recalling: in the States they still rely on sending little pieces of paper around for many payments, so there's probably a similar analogue fetish occurring in this instance.
Anyone know which channels the Chinese send their emergency alerts over?
Anyone know which channels the Chinese send their emergency alerts over?
So you're hunkered down in your home's tornado safe spot. How's the AM radio in your car going to provide you updates? It's not.
That's why you should have an emergency radio. They even make models that are hand-cranked so that you don't even need power. They also have flashlights and distress signals.
There's no need for Congress to stick their noses into matters they obviously haven't thought through.
That's why you should have an emergency radio. They even make models that are hand-cranked so that you don't even need power. They also have flashlights and distress signals.
There's no need for Congress to stick their noses into matters they obviously haven't thought through.
It's you that has not thought things through.
Without AM radios in cars there will be no AM stations left, they'll shut down.
Your hand cranked radio won't do you much good.
Without AM radios in cars there will be no AM stations left, they'll shut down.
Your hand cranked radio won't do you much good.
Apparently you don't know the USDOT runs an AM station called the Highway Advisory Radio (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelers'_information_station...
There's nothing special about AM radio from a sending information to the populace perspective. If people are only listening to AM radio during emergencies then according to your thinking those same stations would be shut down.
No, let's cut through the BS. This is about a GOP-led Congress legislating the ability for their constituents to continue being able to listen to conservative talk radio and trying to, not so cleverly, frame it as assisting people during an emergency.
It should be easy to see it doesn't add up.
There's nothing special about AM radio from a sending information to the populace perspective. If people are only listening to AM radio during emergencies then according to your thinking those same stations would be shut down.
No, let's cut through the BS. This is about a GOP-led Congress legislating the ability for their constituents to continue being able to listen to conservative talk radio and trying to, not so cleverly, frame it as assisting people during an emergency.
It should be easy to see it doesn't add up.
> If people are only listening to AM radio during emergencies then according to your thinking those same stations would be shut down.
What? Sports radio is still very popular. I catch the baseball game that way sometimes.
What? Sports radio is still very popular. I catch the baseball game that way sometimes.
AM radio is for listening to baseball, arguing about sports, arguing about politics and listening to oldies music in really low quality.
Even liking AM radio I have a very hard time seeing the reasoning for compelling car makers to support something that is nearly the equivalent of mandating support for CD players.
Even liking AM radio I have a very hard time seeing the reasoning for compelling car makers to support something that is nearly the equivalent of mandating support for CD players.
Because presumably there would never be talk radio on FM, oh no, definitely not.
> This is about a GOP-led
Yes, a GOD-led bipartisan thing.
Dude, you see conspiracy theories where there are none.
> This is about a GOP-led
Yes, a GOD-led bipartisan thing.
Dude, you see conspiracy theories where there are none.
I see a do-nothing Congress butting their noses into something it doesn't need to be and I ask why? They don't do anything without some benefit to them. So, I ask, what's in it for them? Ever hear the term "follow the money"? There's a reason that term exists.
I should have also pointed out that NOAA operates the National Weather Radio and operate more than 1,000 transmitters in the U.S. and U.S. territories that continually provide weather updates and forecasts for your area.
That hand-cranked radio? It receives NOAA weather broadcasts.
Once again I say this GOP-led Congress is engaging in sleight of hand to maintain a market for conservative AM talk radio.
That hand-cranked radio? It receives NOAA weather broadcasts.
Once again I say this GOP-led Congress is engaging in sleight of hand to maintain a market for conservative AM talk radio.
So artificial market creation by Government mandate?
Unrelated but I wish electric automakers used the electromagnetic interference of their motors as an engine noise, since after watching some videos of Teslas picked up on the AM frequency it's quite a nice sound
Bad idea as long as a massive engine sound is kinda cool.
I am a short wave enthusiast and EV electromagnetic noise is bad.
I am a short wave enthusiast and EV electromagnetic noise is bad.
I mean I don't imagine it would be modifying the motor itself to be throwing off anymore radiation than usual, rather capturing the noise already being produced and sending to a speaker in the cabin somewhere
Only if there's an off switch. I certainly wouldn't want that sort of noise. Ideally, I'd hear no noise whatsoever from the car when I'm inside of it.
AM radio is a tried and true technology. It's super simple. I think at the very least they should come to a compromise in which certain emergency frequencies are available/accessible in all cars.
They should expand the use of the AM band to include low speed digital transmissions, and make it a standard for data interchange between vehicles and for warning of road conditions, local alerts, accidents, etc.
In Japan, GPS head units in cars receive such data over FM radio.[1] Nowadays your phone usually provides a data connection to the head unit, but it's still nice to have this official information provided.
[1]https://www.vics.or.jp/en/start/indicate/index.html
[1]https://www.vics.or.jp/en/start/indicate/index.html
When I was a kid I made an AM radio simply by connecting a 3 foot wire to the phono input to the amplifier.
I had a crystal radio set. It had the one crystal, one long wire, one ferrite core to loop the end of the wire around for tuning, one small speaker, and one wire for grounding. No electricity required.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_radio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_radio
You're probably also the kind of guy who writes his own C++ compiler!! ;)
If there were a crisis I'm not sure it would occur to me to try AM radio, or any radio, nor would I know where to tune (I guess I could search).
Back in the '89 Bay Area earthquake I did think of this, and the FM stations were broadcasting the emergency signal and told me where to tune to. But back then tape or radio was generally the choice anyway. I haven't listened to broadcast radio in 20 years.
Back in the '89 Bay Area earthquake I did think of this, and the FM stations were broadcasting the emergency signal and told me where to tune to. But back then tape or radio was generally the choice anyway. I haven't listened to broadcast radio in 20 years.
Question to the knowledgeable group here, is AM radio frequency useful for anything else? Would terminating commercial radios benefit any other industry?
See previous discussion:
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35416627
Bad weather, traffic, mountain passes, etc.
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35416627
Bad weather, traffic, mountain passes, etc.
> is AM radio frequency useful for anything else?
Emergency broadcasts.
Emergency broadcasts.
Sorry, I definitely should have mention any other commercial* gains? As in, any possible chance of a not glaringly obvious 3rd party angle?
You do see signs saying tune in to XXXX Hz to hear information about road construction, air port traffic, etc.
Pretty soon this will be...install our app to access the latest road/construction information...
AM radio is low frequency radio, right? Good for long distance but you can't pack too many bits into it.
Perfect for finding lost objects / dogs / cats. Weather announcements.
What else??
Perfect for finding lost objects / dogs / cats. Weather announcements.
What else??
I believe AM commercial radio broadcasts in the USA are medium frequency, not low frequency. My AM radio tuner on my desk goes from 530 to 1700 kHz.
Making good antennas for this frequency range generally requires rather physically large antennas as the wavelength is quite large, so finding objects is not really a good use of these frequencies.
Making good antennas for this frequency range generally requires rather physically large antennas as the wavelength is quite large, so finding objects is not really a good use of these frequencies.
The wavelength for 1700 kHz is 578 ft. Antenna would be half that, 289 ft.
AM stations usually have a tower that is the antenna.
AM stations usually have a tower that is the antenna.
Not good for finding lost dogs / cats unless hey carry a very large battery and antenna.
Good for long distance, but only with a band-matching antenna (and plenty of power) at the transmitting end.
But fantastic at reaching multiple simple receivers simultaneously over a very wide area with voice-quality transmission when you do.
Good for long distance, but only with a band-matching antenna (and plenty of power) at the transmitting end.
But fantastic at reaching multiple simple receivers simultaneously over a very wide area with voice-quality transmission when you do.
[deleted]
The BOM for a an AM radio is a few dollars only, what's the point of even lobbying? An antenna coaxial and a superheterodyne circuit on the main radio baseband (modern cars all come with a cellular connection) is all you need. You barely need any new parts, the existing components can be modified to support the feature.
It's not to trim the BOM, it's because electric vehicles emit copious amounts of interference. It is easier to drop AM radio than suppress the RFI.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/10/business/media/am-radio-c...
Technical point, you generally would not be able to recover an AM broadcast signal from a cellular baseband. You might be able to get it from a direct sampling receiver (some RTL-SDRs can do this), but it implies additional band filters and of course an antenna.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/10/business/media/am-radio-c...
Technical point, you generally would not be able to recover an AM broadcast signal from a cellular baseband. You might be able to get it from a direct sampling receiver (some RTL-SDRs can do this), but it implies additional band filters and of course an antenna.
I would like to see this, and I would also like to see an expansion of the FM band (with support for it in cars also mandated). Low-VHF TV channels 4-6 are adjacent to the existing FM band and are not really suitable for digital TV broadcasting due to the type of noise they experience (there are very few TV channels which still use those frequencies, and the most of the ones that did post-digital transision used channel 6 to broadcast as pseudo-radio stations since most FM radios could receive the analog audio of channel 6). That's 18 MHz of spectrum which would nearly double the size of the FM broadcast band which is getting quite croweded in many markets with the FCC allowing AM stations to broadcast low-power FM translators to try to help their market share.
The iBiquity IBOC system (a.k.a. HD Radio) now owned by DTS, as implemented in the North American FM radio band, features multiplexing of 2 or 3 subchannels per station across the existing band, so expanding the FM radio band has already been made a non-starter or moot point.
The sound quality of "HD Radio" sucks. It's like listening to 96 kbps MP3s off Napster back in the day. Also, cheap FM radios still don't support it because 1) it's a US-specific technology and 2) iBiquity charges (charged?) obscene licensing fees for it. Doing a quick search on Amazon, the cheapest "HD" radios are around $75 vs $10 for the cheapest analog-only models.
A really good analog FM signal can sound very good on a very good receiver but I am a picky listener and I would not characterize HD FM that way. I don’t hear any difference on my car stereo and I hear very little difference on my old Sony XDR-F1HD, sadly long out of production and one of the best FM tuners ever made.
I'm not sure how that relates to the issue of AM radio being dropped by car manufacters, but IMHO the U.S. ''not invented here'' syndrome seemed to give iBiquity too much of a head start over the more open global digital radio formats, so I agree with your points.
While it's true AM radio is very easy receive, I imagine it's a much less effective use of bandwidth compared to the amount of information (the shannon kind) modern digital communication can cram on there, no?
Wouldn't it be better to repurpose those frequencies for country wide digital broadcast that could also send other data during emergency situations?
Wouldn't it be better to repurpose those frequencies for country wide digital broadcast that could also send other data during emergency situations?
AM radio's band isn't suitable for modern high-speed communications. The most you can extract out of it is ~1200 bps:
https://www.diffen.com/difference/AM_vs_FM
Even if you multiplexed all possible amplitudes into one it still wouldn't be worth it for (two-way) digital communications.
https://www.diffen.com/difference/AM_vs_FM
Even if you multiplexed all possible amplitudes into one it still wouldn't be worth it for (two-way) digital communications.
That seems unintuitive given that we had 56K modems running over telephone systems also designed to carry human-audible audio.
Indeed. The US "HD Radio" system has AM support in addition to FM and on AM it can broadcast up to 60 kbps (though most stations chose a 40 kbps mode with additional error correction to improve reception)[1]. Digital Radio Mondiale [2] (with the unfortunate acronym DRM) is another competing digital system system that can be used in the AM and shortwave broadcast bands, supports similar bitrates.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio#AM
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Radio_Mondiale
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio#AM
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Radio_Mondiale
The radio bands are small. Each AM HD station uses 30 kHz which gives 40-60 kbit. That isn't enough for full fidelity music. And that is using more than one frequency since analog AM is 10kHz stations.
AM band uses a large frequency range, 530-1700 kHz, but the total bandwidth is small, slightly more than 1MHz.
Telephone is bad compared to AM and really bad compared to FM or CDs. Human voice fits in much smaller bandwidth than music.
AM band uses a large frequency range, 530-1700 kHz, but the total bandwidth is small, slightly more than 1MHz.
Telephone is bad compared to AM and really bad compared to FM or CDs. Human voice fits in much smaller bandwidth than music.
> Each AM HD station uses 30 kHz which gives 40-60 kbit. That isn't enough for full fidelity music
That's part and parcel of station management's programming decisions for HD Radio subchannels on the AM band, hence the focus on ''talk''.
That's part and parcel of station management's programming decisions for HD Radio subchannels on the AM band, hence the focus on ''talk''.
The SNR from an AM radio station at about ~30mi is 13dB and if you plug that into the Shannon capacity calculation for regular 15kHz AM radio (not HD AM) you get about 57kBps at ~100mi, that drops to 4kB/sec.
56K modems also had the advantage that the noise floor for the downstream direction was much lower than the upstream direction.
56K modems also had the advantage that the noise floor for the downstream direction was much lower than the upstream direction.
I guess that figure is set by some ancient standard for transmitting bits semi reliable on AM, which doesn't employ the same encoding tricks that modems did. POTS lines had a max baud rate of 2400, and the higher speeds were accomplished by encoding more bits pr baud. Parts of the modem noises was to establish which encoding scheme to uses, based on capabilities of the two devices and the line quality. AM broadscasting can't really make such handshakes, so my guess is that 1200 bps was some lowest common denominator.
edit: wasn't too clear that I meant to say that the 1200 bps must be from an old standard
edit: wasn't too clear that I meant to say that the 1200 bps must be from an old standard
One is going over the air and the other was going over copper lines. I don't know if that makes a huge difference, but I suspect it makes some difference (especially in inclement weather).
So people without cars are supposed to do what?
Fast forward to the first emergency that actually needs this and you're gonna see a bunch of asphyxiation deaths from people running their cars in the garage to listen to the last AM radio they have.
If they really want to keep AM radio viable start a public awareness campaign about its importance and make radios available for free.
Fast forward to the first emergency that actually needs this and you're gonna see a bunch of asphyxiation deaths from people running their cars in the garage to listen to the last AM radio they have.
If they really want to keep AM radio viable start a public awareness campaign about its importance and make radios available for free.
It is possible to have an AM radio that's not inside a car! Many homes have portable radios that are battery operated. Especially in areas that are prone to very severe weather.
The problem is there are parts of the US where cell signals and FM cannot reach but AM comes through just fine. Particularly mountainous regions, where weather and safety reports are important. Telling people driving around these areas to keep a second radio running in their car seems kind of stupid when the functionality can be included in the head unit for pennies.
Preserving AM radio is important for a few reasons that go beyond cars. AM broadcasts have exceptionally long range with relatively little power. Transmitters and recievers are among the easiest circuits to build completely from scratch, as there is no arcane or proprietary knowledge needed to decode the signal. For these reasons, maintaining AM radio infrastructure is an important insurance policy in case of natural disasters or other major public safety events, even if it is something 99.99% of people will not interact with on a daily basis.
Preserving AM radio is important for a few reasons that go beyond cars. AM broadcasts have exceptionally long range with relatively little power. Transmitters and recievers are among the easiest circuits to build completely from scratch, as there is no arcane or proprietary knowledge needed to decode the signal. For these reasons, maintaining AM radio infrastructure is an important insurance policy in case of natural disasters or other major public safety events, even if it is something 99.99% of people will not interact with on a daily basis.
I'm fully on board with keeping AM radio around. I think it's immensely valuable. But considering that the FCC has already eliminated a number of very valuable things through frequency deallocation, I think we need to face up to the real possibility that AM radio is next in line for the chopping block. It's a real shame, but here we are.
I advise people to get a shortwave receiver. They're inexpensive, and are actually even better in emergency situations.
I advise people to get a shortwave receiver. They're inexpensive, and are actually even better in emergency situations.
Agreed! It reminds me of the days when we had POTS for telephone service. It was great to have when there was an extended power outage.
> Fast forward to the first emergency that actually needs this and you're gonna see a bunch of asphyxiation deaths from people running their cars in the garage to listen to the last AM radio they have.
In almost every car you can run the radio off just the battery without the engine and most people have at least one radio in their home besides their car. (If you don't have one, you really should and they're only $10 on Amazon.)
> If they really want to keep AM radio viable start a public awareness campaign about its importance and make radios available for free.
Public awareness campaigns won't pay the bills for radio stations. This is about ensuring there is enough of a market for AM radio stations (since most radio listening is done in the car these days) that they can sustain themselves from ad sales so they can fulfill their public service function in the event of an emergency without (direct) government subsidies to keep the lights on.
In almost every car you can run the radio off just the battery without the engine and most people have at least one radio in their home besides their car. (If you don't have one, you really should and they're only $10 on Amazon.)
> If they really want to keep AM radio viable start a public awareness campaign about its importance and make radios available for free.
Public awareness campaigns won't pay the bills for radio stations. This is about ensuring there is enough of a market for AM radio stations (since most radio listening is done in the car these days) that they can sustain themselves from ad sales so they can fulfill their public service function in the event of an emergency without (direct) government subsidies to keep the lights on.
So creating a completely artificial market via forced Government regulation?
You can purchase a small AM radio that takes AA batteries, available on Amazon. Prices are in the $10 - $20 range.
https://www.amazon.com/Goodes-Transistor-Headphone-Reception...
https://www.amazon.com/Goodes-Transistor-Headphone-Reception...
Usually people not in cars have other convenient sources of information. (Portable radio, TV, public transit announcements, etc)
I mean, AM radio is basically dead (as is FM radio). Most of the stations are foreign language, talk-shows and and in at least one case in the USA, overt foreign propaganda by an unfriendly nation. I imagine the radio spectrum can be repurposed for better uses.
>I mean, AM radio is basically dead
Not where I am, yes some stations have the crazies on them. But the small City where I live has an AM Station. At least daily, it interviews a local politicians. All other stations focus on the politicians in the nearby State Capital or National Politics.
It also plays a bit of middle, right and left wing shows along with music from the 50s. And on weekend evenings it plays old serials from the 20s--40s.
So it is rather unique and gets decent ratings due to its programming.
Not where I am, yes some stations have the crazies on them. But the small City where I live has an AM Station. At least daily, it interviews a local politicians. All other stations focus on the politicians in the nearby State Capital or National Politics.
It also plays a bit of middle, right and left wing shows along with music from the 50s. And on weekend evenings it plays old serials from the 20s--40s.
So it is rather unique and gets decent ratings due to its programming.
I listen to AM radio every day along with very large numbers of other people. It's far from dead, at least in my part of the US.
> talk-shows
This is what the whole thing is about.
This is what the whole thing is about.
Sports radio is still very popular, and exists mainly on AM radio.
Really? Here in Germany there are a ton of stations left that send over radio.
I still use mine.
There are a lot of safety/whether/info stations run by the government. I don't carry a smartphone so that can be really valuable.
There are a lot of safety/whether/info stations run by the government. I don't carry a smartphone so that can be really valuable.
> AM radio is basically dead (as is FM radio)
This is pretty out of touch. Drive-time AM radio is still a HUGE market in certain places. Think Rush Limbaugh et al. Although, that might be what you mean by "overt foreign propaganda by an unfriendly nation", the fact remains that it's 1) hugely popular by the numbers, and 2) directly beneficial to the certain congressional vermin.
This is pretty out of touch. Drive-time AM radio is still a HUGE market in certain places. Think Rush Limbaugh et al. Although, that might be what you mean by "overt foreign propaganda by an unfriendly nation", the fact remains that it's 1) hugely popular by the numbers, and 2) directly beneficial to the certain congressional vermin.
Oh no, I mean literal state propaganda. The parent company of Russia Today leased an AM radio station to spout literal Russian propaganda (English language of course).
* Radio Sputnik for 6 hours a day* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KCXL#Broadcast_of_Radio_Sputni...
* Radio Sputnik for 6 hours a day* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KCXL#Broadcast_of_Radio_Sputni...
Rush Limbaugh is basically dead.
But they would be cool to kill off FM radio?
I assume AM broadcasts can cover significantly larger areas than FM.
I assume AM broadcasts can cover significantly larger areas than FM.
> I assume AM broadcasts can cover significantly larger areas than FM.
Yes, depending on the broadcast power AM radio signals can be picked up from farther away than FM. At night, depending on atmospheric conditions, AM signals can be received from hundreds of miles away. For example, see the daytime [1] and nighttime [2] coverage of WCCO-AM (a 50 kW clear-channel AM station) compared to the coverage of KSTP-FM (a 95 kW FM station) [3]. As you can see, the AM station can broadcast beyond the horizon (well beyond at night) while the FM station, even with twice the power, can't match even the daytime signal of the AM station.
[1] https://i.imgur.com/uSi2Hx7.png
[2] https://i.imgur.com/AJiXEVB.png
[3] https://i.imgur.com/aL2HqsT.png
Yes, depending on the broadcast power AM radio signals can be picked up from farther away than FM. At night, depending on atmospheric conditions, AM signals can be received from hundreds of miles away. For example, see the daytime [1] and nighttime [2] coverage of WCCO-AM (a 50 kW clear-channel AM station) compared to the coverage of KSTP-FM (a 95 kW FM station) [3]. As you can see, the AM station can broadcast beyond the horizon (well beyond at night) while the FM station, even with twice the power, can't match even the daytime signal of the AM station.
[1] https://i.imgur.com/uSi2Hx7.png
[2] https://i.imgur.com/AJiXEVB.png
[3] https://i.imgur.com/aL2HqsT.png
For terrestrial stations, yes, but how does it compare to satellite broadcast?
I had a prof back in the 20th century who claimed that FM stations in the States were fairly localised due to market (serving local ads) forces; that Japan had a different economic model for radio; and that if the US had chosen to adopt the JP style, it would only take something like 3 broadcast (from orbit?) cells to cover the continental 48.
I had a prof back in the 20th century who claimed that FM stations in the States were fairly localised due to market (serving local ads) forces; that Japan had a different economic model for radio; and that if the US had chosen to adopt the JP style, it would only take something like 3 broadcast (from orbit?) cells to cover the continental 48.
I think they should enable AM radio when the car is parked. If the electric motor isn't running, the interference shouln't be an issue.
Unfortunately that's not the case. There are other devices (heaters, AC, etc.) that need power at different voltages than the primary battery, so there are switching converters. Some of those are rather noisy. One of the many youtube hams that also happens to have a Leaf points out that despite applying comprehensive body grounds, line chokes and other measures a Nissan Leaf's AC will zero out most of the HF bands when he is operating mobile.
We need AM in all cars.
why's that a car problem? Give everyone $20 and they can buy a radio with batteries.
thrillgore(1)
r00fus(3)
Really stupid quote, who paid for the article. If an emergency, people may need to travel in their auto. Am I suppose to play with my Cell Phone while driving ?
Also if a weather issue will Cell Towers work ? How will your Cell Battery get charged. Real dumb thinking. AM Radio signals can be heard many hundreds of miles, some even a thousand miles.
So yes, to me AM is a must for dire emergencies.