Hundreds of thousands trafficked to work as online scammers in SE Asia, says UN(ohchr.org)
ohchr.org
Hundreds of thousands trafficked to work as online scammers in SE Asia, says UN
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/08/hundreds-thousands-trafficked-work-online-scammers-se-asia-says-un-report
194 comments
Just saw a documentary interviewing escaped trafficked labors – just men, women ain't even capable of escape. They are falsely promised for "entrepreneurial opportunities," promptly got locked up and financially deprived to do scamming, prostitution, etc. One guy escaped, bystanders took him to the police and the police was part of the traffiking ring and sold him back. He finally paid off somebody with promise of ransom payment from his relatives, and upon entering Chinese border, he was fined by Chinese border control for violations. These local traffik orgs are armed with AKs and well connected politically. What a crazy, crazy world.
> They are falsely promised for "entrepreneurial opportunities"
From what I heard, which I cannot verify, it's more sinister then that. People take completely normal-sounding jobs in normal-looking and functioning offices. After several months of being paid normally for normal work, they're invited to a team-building event in SE Asia. There, they lose their passports, are interned in huge camps and are press-ganged into being scammers, and tortured or killed if they refuse.
This isn't your usual "can't cheat an honest man" tale where you sucker in greedy rubes with a promised free lunch.
From what I heard, which I cannot verify, it's more sinister then that. People take completely normal-sounding jobs in normal-looking and functioning offices. After several months of being paid normally for normal work, they're invited to a team-building event in SE Asia. There, they lose their passports, are interned in huge camps and are press-ganged into being scammers, and tortured or killed if they refuse.
This isn't your usual "can't cheat an honest man" tale where you sucker in greedy rubes with a promised free lunch.
The entire chain that enables this is disturbing, but fascinating.
For instance, the scammers would need some kind of credibility in the job market before the team-building exercise. Do they just start up new legtimate businesses with new people just for this purpose?
And the SE Asia slave camps need a huge amount of compliance from the locals.
And what happens when none of the employees return from the original country?
For instance, the scammers would need some kind of credibility in the job market before the team-building exercise. Do they just start up new legtimate businesses with new people just for this purpose?
And the SE Asia slave camps need a huge amount of compliance from the locals.
And what happens when none of the employees return from the original country?
> And the SE Asia slave camps need a huge amount of compliance from the locals.
Myanmar is home to like 20 different civil wars. Some of these conflicts ended in ceasefires. The areas that got good ceasefire deals (Wa, Mongla, some "border guard forces" who the military lets do whatever they want in return for allegiance) generally have a high degree autonomy from the Burmese government. So these areas are essentially run by warlords who are accountable to no one because the Burmese government cannot enter these areas. China backs some rebel groups and occasionally puts pressure on them to stop various crimes but they quickly adapt (when China cut internet to Mongla they just started using satellite). These areas are home to the largest meth labs in the world, illegal logging, illegal mining, etc. So they are perfect for criminals as they just have to pay "taxes" to whoever is in power. I read a good book on this: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/62141000-stalemate
Some scams are in Cambodia and Laos. The survival of these mostly has to do with corrupt law enforcement. All of the scam victims are either Chinese or in the West so they have even less reason to care.
> For instance, the scammers would need some kind of credibility in the job market before the team-building exercise. Do they just start up new legtimate businesses with new people just for this purpose?
I think it goes something like this: You make $200 a month as a dishwasher in Cambodia. A friend of friend messages you and tells you that you can make $800 a month. Because you are hopeful and want to improve your life you do not thoroughly vet them.
> And what happens when none of the employees return from the original country?
If they are from the region there's usually no record because they are picked up by an "agent" and go through a series of illegal border crossings.
There are people who actually knowingly apply for these jobs too: https://vodenglish.news/underground-group-chat-teems-with-hu...
Myanmar is home to like 20 different civil wars. Some of these conflicts ended in ceasefires. The areas that got good ceasefire deals (Wa, Mongla, some "border guard forces" who the military lets do whatever they want in return for allegiance) generally have a high degree autonomy from the Burmese government. So these areas are essentially run by warlords who are accountable to no one because the Burmese government cannot enter these areas. China backs some rebel groups and occasionally puts pressure on them to stop various crimes but they quickly adapt (when China cut internet to Mongla they just started using satellite). These areas are home to the largest meth labs in the world, illegal logging, illegal mining, etc. So they are perfect for criminals as they just have to pay "taxes" to whoever is in power. I read a good book on this: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/62141000-stalemate
Some scams are in Cambodia and Laos. The survival of these mostly has to do with corrupt law enforcement. All of the scam victims are either Chinese or in the West so they have even less reason to care.
> For instance, the scammers would need some kind of credibility in the job market before the team-building exercise. Do they just start up new legtimate businesses with new people just for this purpose?
I think it goes something like this: You make $200 a month as a dishwasher in Cambodia. A friend of friend messages you and tells you that you can make $800 a month. Because you are hopeful and want to improve your life you do not thoroughly vet them.
> And what happens when none of the employees return from the original country?
If they are from the region there's usually no record because they are picked up by an "agent" and go through a series of illegal border crossings.
There are people who actually knowingly apply for these jobs too: https://vodenglish.news/underground-group-chat-teems-with-hu...
This seems like an important point. Either this element is being exaggerated, or some aspect of their society itself is enabling this at a fairly deep level.
People who need a job apply to new start-up companies all the time. The scammers can just start a new company every few months. All they need a rented office.
This is not exactly secret. Many of these companies are perfectly "legit" legal entities being covered as a "call center"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Q_P__aqAk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Q_P__aqAk
Yeah, I saw that, too. If they refuse, they claimed that they are going to be "harvested" of cornea, plasma, kidney, etc. What I don't understand is that they said they were threatened to be taken to international water for organ harvesting procedures, but was that even necessary? Those camps are pretty criminal already, seems to be an unnecessary extra step.
That sounds very much like the plot of Animal World!
To be honest, it doesn't all add up for me as simply described: offices where multiple people suddenly vanish seem unlikely to escape notice back home, unless they're excellent at picking people without any support network to report them missing. But maybe there's more to it than the simple description. And there is an enormous supply of migrant workers in cities without friends or families to come looking until it's to late, so I suppose it could happen. Or maybe it's garbled in the transmission and the jobs are all actually out of the country, but they don't spring the trap instantly when you walk in
But at least it seems not to be simply little scammers tricked by bigger, eviller ones, but rather they really have people who were genuinely looking for at least fairly honest work being ensnared.
To be honest, it doesn't all add up for me as simply described: offices where multiple people suddenly vanish seem unlikely to escape notice back home, unless they're excellent at picking people without any support network to report them missing. But maybe there's more to it than the simple description. And there is an enormous supply of migrant workers in cities without friends or families to come looking until it's to late, so I suppose it could happen. Or maybe it's garbled in the transmission and the jobs are all actually out of the country, but they don't spring the trap instantly when you walk in
But at least it seems not to be simply little scammers tricked by bigger, eviller ones, but rather they really have people who were genuinely looking for at least fairly honest work being ensnared.
From other accounts, people back home are generally too poor to come looking.
These people have to smuggle themselves out of their own country, then maintain a presence illegally abroad, then run an amateur investigation. It just doesn't work out like that.
These people have to smuggle themselves out of their own country, then maintain a presence illegally abroad, then run an amateur investigation. It just doesn't work out like that.
I live in a rich European country and every once in a while they find some poor smucks forced to pick asparagus at a farm or have sex with a dozen men a day in a hotel. It gets a little column in a newspaper.
It's really not that hard to make people drop off the grid in an uncaring world.
It's really not that hard to make people drop off the grid in an uncaring world.
My understanding — which mostly comes from reading about the "scam centers" operating in the Laos "golden triangle" autonomous region specifically — is that everything happening there is either "legal" or "unprosecutable" due to jurisdictional problems. If a Chinese-owned-and-operated company has a bunch of illegal immigrants from Myanmar and Thailand and Cambodia (but no Laotians!) locked up in a "scam center" in a Laotian AR... then which police force has both the motivation and the right to come knocking, without that being an international incident and potential incitement to another territorial war in the region that nobody wants?
Laotian police have been quoted as saying that they have full authority to come into the autonomous region to investigate a crime, given irrefutable evidence of a crime — but that they can't come in without such evidence; and that it's very hard for them to get such evidence.
I'm guessing that by "crime", here, they probably mean "a felony" (or whatever the Laotian equivalent is) — which is likely the blocker for them, and probably the basis for the very thin line that these criminal gangs are treading.
I believe that "an escapee who can show that their organs had been harvested" would be irrefutable evidence, enough for a police raid; while "an escapee who told a story about being held captive for years" would not.
(And re: the other part, of some of the things happening there being "legal" — a large part of how these companies work is by indentured servitude, in the literal sense: they get people coming there to sign contracts for provision of services and equipment, that create a debt owed by the worker to the service/equipment-provider; and then they don't let them leave until they work it off. These contracts seem to have a lot of power for the gangs; they don't bother to chase escapees who haven't signed them, while considering people who have signed them to be "theirs to keep." Presumably, they've tested these contracts with local law-in-practice, and found that they actually work as a shield for what they're doing.)
Laotian police have been quoted as saying that they have full authority to come into the autonomous region to investigate a crime, given irrefutable evidence of a crime — but that they can't come in without such evidence; and that it's very hard for them to get such evidence.
I'm guessing that by "crime", here, they probably mean "a felony" (or whatever the Laotian equivalent is) — which is likely the blocker for them, and probably the basis for the very thin line that these criminal gangs are treading.
I believe that "an escapee who can show that their organs had been harvested" would be irrefutable evidence, enough for a police raid; while "an escapee who told a story about being held captive for years" would not.
(And re: the other part, of some of the things happening there being "legal" — a large part of how these companies work is by indentured servitude, in the literal sense: they get people coming there to sign contracts for provision of services and equipment, that create a debt owed by the worker to the service/equipment-provider; and then they don't let them leave until they work it off. These contracts seem to have a lot of power for the gangs; they don't bother to chase escapees who haven't signed them, while considering people who have signed them to be "theirs to keep." Presumably, they've tested these contracts with local law-in-practice, and found that they actually work as a shield for what they're doing.)
I am sure that there are terrible human rights abuses as outlined in the parent article, but I think it is also true that the media loves to jump on stories like these and exaggerates things.
See for instance CNN reporting that Kim Jong Un had his uncle torn apart by a pack of dogs. Generally once organ harvesting starts coming in to play, one should put on a very skeptical hat, while there is evidence that this has happened among some prisoners in China, I think one should remain skeptical on first-read of such claims.
See for instance CNN reporting that Kim Jong Un had his uncle torn apart by a pack of dogs. Generally once organ harvesting starts coming in to play, one should put on a very skeptical hat, while there is evidence that this has happened among some prisoners in China, I think one should remain skeptical on first-read of such claims.
> After several months of being paid normally for normal work, they're invited to a team-building event in SE Asia
Holy ####. This reminds me of my previous software developer job when we were supposed to go to South Korea for God knows what[0]. The reason why we had to go there wasn't really explained well to me, and I didn't care enough to ask because I was just excited to go to another country. In the end our application was denied by the embassy, and I always felt a bit disappointed by that.
Perhaps the possibility of my case being sinister is miniscule, but maybe I shouldn't feel too disappointed.
[0] the owner of the company I worked for was South Korean
Holy ####. This reminds me of my previous software developer job when we were supposed to go to South Korea for God knows what[0]. The reason why we had to go there wasn't really explained well to me, and I didn't care enough to ask because I was just excited to go to another country. In the end our application was denied by the embassy, and I always felt a bit disappointed by that.
Perhaps the possibility of my case being sinister is miniscule, but maybe I shouldn't feel too disappointed.
[0] the owner of the company I worked for was South Korean
I don't think that South Korea would fall into this category, its pretty well developed and western-style democracy (with some strong nepotic powers at place but ultimately even they are not untouchable).
If you would be invited to say Philippines, Indonesia (which covers Bali too), Myanmar, Laos etc. that should raise an eyebrow.
If you would be invited to say Philippines, Indonesia (which covers Bali too), Myanmar, Laos etc. that should raise an eyebrow.
just because someone says you are being taken to a particular place doesnt mean thats where you will end up.
That's not how international travel works until you totally leave civilization; no matter who's paying for the trip, you do know where you're going, and each individual has a choice at every border crossing; they can't simply "export" a box filled with people on a plane that's going "somewhere".
Thats only if they play by the rules and everyone is honest and unfettered by coercion.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37327558
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37327558
Yeah, but if you're a westerner being taken on a trip to South Korea, read your plane ticket to see if that's actually were you're going.
If the deal is more akin to "get in this van and my guy will take you to where you need to go", then that's another story.
If the deal is more akin to "get in this van and my guy will take you to where you need to go", then that's another story.
> get in this van and my guy will take you to where you need to go
That could have been their pickup from the airport.
That could have been their pickup from the airport.
Well South Korean is a peninsula, effectively an island, so you're probably fairly safe there if you don't agree to get on somebody's boat or plane. Accepting a plane ticket to a country like South Korea just isn't very risky. Where you might get into trouble is accepting somebody's invitation to smuggle you across a border, or being taken to a country where the rule of law is in doubt or where you could be driven across a border into such a country.
once your in the air you are effectively detained.
a large number of situations, contrived or otherwise, can result in emergency diversions.
you may want to be sure a connecting flight is legitimate when travelling in 'suspect' regions.
this would be high profile kidnapping, but a source of non SEA persons, that would be more convincing, and a source of international ransom revenues, espescially if they were also accused of some crime.
a large number of situations, contrived or otherwise, can result in emergency diversions.
you may want to be sure a connecting flight is legitimate when travelling in 'suspect' regions.
this would be high profile kidnapping, but a source of non SEA persons, that would be more convincing, and a source of international ransom revenues, espescially if they were also accused of some crime.
An airliner being diverted for a kidnapping might happen if a country were trying to nab you, but that isn't a realistic scenario for a criminal gang to orchestrate.
So with zero substantiation from the OP (who admitted this), you believe this explanation and you've now connected it to some company trip to South Korea you once didn't go on?
It's pretty hard simplification for the matter.
There is only 2 airports where this sort of things happen. If your teambuilding event scheduled to be in some god forbidden area of Colombia for example, and if this doesn't bring any suspicion to you - well...
There is only 2 airports where this sort of things happen. If your teambuilding event scheduled to be in some god forbidden area of Colombia for example, and if this doesn't bring any suspicion to you - well...
Sounds like an industry ripe for disruption, AI, LLMs and AI voice generators to the rescue! /s
In all honesty, if AI is killing those organisations, that might be the only half way decent thing coming of the current AI use cases.
In all honesty, if AI is killing those organisations, that might be the only half way decent thing coming of the current AI use cases.
The usual story here (Vietnam) is that the victims are often promised a job with high earning prospect in Cambodia, or they are in debt after playing in casinos over there. Since Vietnam economy isn't in a good shape, there is no lack of potential victims. They don't really get killed either as it will cost the kidnappers, they will just get sold to another scam center. Oh and the victim can buy their freedom back if they scam enough people (my friend lost 10k USD in one such scam), not that there is many people who can do that though.
Source? That sounds straight from a Facebook group
I don't believe you, to be honest. Provide a source or delete if you can't substantiate.
For what it's worth, they would be unable to delete the comment both because it has replies and because it is past a certain age. The comment can't otherwise be edited to have its text removed because it is past a certain age.
I don’t believe this happens with any degree of regularity; it’s like the plot of a movie.
If it happened even once, it would be noteworthy. Do you have any reference to an article about it?
If it happened even once, it would be noteworthy. Do you have any reference to an article about it?
Ever heard of the World of Faith Fellowship?
They’ve had decades of child and adult abuse and they continue to operate pretty much in the open in the USA and hardly anyone has even heard of them.
https://apnews.com/article/nc-state-wire-north-carolina-ap-t...
The idea that something like what the GP is describing could not happen halfway across the world because it would be so well covered is probably highly mistaken.
They’ve had decades of child and adult abuse and they continue to operate pretty much in the open in the USA and hardly anyone has even heard of them.
https://apnews.com/article/nc-state-wire-north-carolina-ap-t...
The idea that something like what the GP is describing could not happen halfway across the world because it would be so well covered is probably highly mistaken.
I personally agree, it is ringing the "apocryphal" bell in my head
Perhaps not as dramatic, but this is not uncommon.
HBO is right now running the documentary series Telemarketers, about a US operation that is clearly a fraud, but it's protected by corrupt and bribed police union management.
HBO is right now running the documentary series Telemarketers, about a US operation that is clearly a fraud, but it's protected by corrupt and bribed police union management.
The well connected politically is the weird thing about this to me.
I think we can all agree that trafficking is…bad. Yet there seems to be this strange political push back against anti-trafficking efforts.
I’ve seen it for years to the point of pretending it’s not even a problem. The recent political reaction to Sound of Freedom, which was not a political movie, is just the latest example.
It’s one of the most worrisome aspects I’ve seen in general “politicize everything” trends.
I think we can all agree that trafficking is…bad. Yet there seems to be this strange political push back against anti-trafficking efforts.
I’ve seen it for years to the point of pretending it’s not even a problem. The recent political reaction to Sound of Freedom, which was not a political movie, is just the latest example.
It’s one of the most worrisome aspects I’ve seen in general “politicize everything” trends.
Politics is a fancy name for "controlling the rules well enough to be able to prospect my little business". Politicians are not all ideologically positive and benevolent, or even patriotic or nationalist, some are really just trying to find a way to do business better.
One of the worst banana republics in that regard are the USA: here in China we'd never let a frigging casino operator rule the country, we have a small pride still.
One of the worst banana republics in that regard are the USA: here in China we'd never let a frigging casino operator rule the country, we have a small pride still.
Bo Xilai literally was on the Politburo and laundered massive amounts of casino money from Macau internationally.
It's the modern day slave trade.
Link to documentary?
I couldn't find the exact video I saw on YouTube. It's funny if you search "escape Cambodia," a lot of Gordon Ramsey's food videos pops up, but if you search "逃出柬埔寨" in Chinese, you find all these terrible trafficking cases.
I'm guessing it's this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-EtdC4zQso
This is the best for Cambodia - "Forced to Scam: Cambodia’s Cyber Slaves" by Al Jazeera - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-EtdC4zQso
> local traffik orgs are armed with AKs
> police was part of the traffiking ring
These statements are not representative of Cambodia, local/Chinese gangsters don't run around with AKs, and the documentary is a little exaggerated like all documentaries but I don't doubt there were suicides and beatings.
Some Facebook ads were very clear what you were doing. There were not 100,000 working in Cambodia and most were not trafficked.
This UN statement is garbage, liars bore me. It's why this is progressing to organ harvesting and other rubbish because the UN is bringing it to fantasy.
Watch the doco and they mention the amounts they were making, then times that by 100,000 trafficked then all the ones who answered the Facebook ads and it doesn't add up.
It's the Chinese doing this, which the UN page doesn't mention. Maybe the report does. But it's a main point for a summary... if the truth mattered.
Video of 40 people escaping a Chinese run Cambodian casino https://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/40-people-swim-back-to-vie...
> local traffik orgs are armed with AKs
> police was part of the traffiking ring
These statements are not representative of Cambodia, local/Chinese gangsters don't run around with AKs, and the documentary is a little exaggerated like all documentaries but I don't doubt there were suicides and beatings.
Some Facebook ads were very clear what you were doing. There were not 100,000 working in Cambodia and most were not trafficked.
This UN statement is garbage, liars bore me. It's why this is progressing to organ harvesting and other rubbish because the UN is bringing it to fantasy.
Watch the doco and they mention the amounts they were making, then times that by 100,000 trafficked then all the ones who answered the Facebook ads and it doesn't add up.
It's the Chinese doing this, which the UN page doesn't mention. Maybe the report does. But it's a main point for a summary... if the truth mattered.
Video of 40 people escaping a Chinese run Cambodian casino https://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/40-people-swim-back-to-vie...
Shoutout for 101 East, which does some excellent reportage on a bunch of underreported East Asian and south East Asian topics.
> It's the Chinese doing this, which the UN page doesn't mention.
I was expecting that in that incoherent and ignorant flow eventually will be some nationality blamed, and I wasnt disappointed.
I was expecting that in that incoherent and ignorant flow eventually will be some nationality blamed, and I wasnt disappointed.
Where there is no opportunity, there will be crime
I’ve had a random person contact me out of the blue on Telegram and try to build a friendship that obviously ends in a pig butchering scam.
Fortunately, I have a rule to never make online friends. If I’ve not met someone in a personal or professional setting before, I assume they’re a robot unless proven otherwise.
Some pig butchers have also tried to contact my parents, but my parents are careful, and I immediately block any such number.
Pretty sad to see that these operations could easily be stopped, but the perpetrators live in extremely corrupt places/semi-failed states where they just pay bribes to the local authorities to leave them alone.
Fortunately, I have a rule to never make online friends. If I’ve not met someone in a personal or professional setting before, I assume they’re a robot unless proven otherwise.
Some pig butchers have also tried to contact my parents, but my parents are careful, and I immediately block any such number.
Pretty sad to see that these operations could easily be stopped, but the perpetrators live in extremely corrupt places/semi-failed states where they just pay bribes to the local authorities to leave them alone.
Can relate. I was in a dating app and there were so many of them pretending “nice looking girl looking for husband” that then tried to befriend you and tried crypto scam. It’s so smooth that even as someone who is relatively well versed in the crypto world and associated scams I couldn’t tell at least in first two or three attempts.
Their first few messages leading upto this would be “do you believe in financial freedom as for a happy life?” I would play along just to see what their strategy is and it would almost always end up trying to lure you into yield farming asking to deposit in some random wallet address promising 15% monthly yield.
It was so frustrating at some point, my first questions to someone matching me would be are you a crypto or onlyfan scam? Man the online dating world has turned completely shameless.
It was so frustrating at some point, my first questions to someone matching me would be are you a crypto or onlyfan scam? Man the online dating world has turned completely shameless.
Just try Tumblr nowadays, which is not even a dating app. But those scammers don't mind, they "only want to make friends" and push ahead with one fresh empty profile after another. And I'm sure it brings them profit, otherwise you wouldn't see them swarming you by dozens.
A quick way to spot one of these is once you establish a nominal connection, ask to meet or video call. The standard scammer response will be something like “I don’t like video calls” or “let’s get to know each other online” first.
Sorry, is "pig butchering" a euphemism for something, or am I missing out on some new scamming trend?
The term was also new to me. From [1] I understand it is a class of cryptocurrency scams starting by building a cordial relationship via social media or dating apps and then suggesting financial investment.
[1] https://www.michigan.gov/ag/consumer-protection/consumer-ale...
[1] https://www.michigan.gov/ag/consumer-protection/consumer-ale...
So-named because you "fatten up the pig" before slaughter.
It’s the name of the scam where they trick people into investing in fake platforms and steal their money.
The scammer starts first by building a romantic relationship with the target (this part can last weeks or months). Along the way, they start suggesting cryptocurrency investments on trading platforms that look legit at a glance but are fake underneath. They instruct the target to deposit money into a wallet, like any exchange, but the perpetrators just steal the tokens and show the mark fake figures.
It’s a long term thing that takes a ton of work…I have no idea how the scammers even pull it off at scale.
This site goes into more detail; https://www.techtarget.com/whatis/feature/Pig-butchering-sca...
The scammer starts first by building a romantic relationship with the target (this part can last weeks or months). Along the way, they start suggesting cryptocurrency investments on trading platforms that look legit at a glance but are fake underneath. They instruct the target to deposit money into a wallet, like any exchange, but the perpetrators just steal the tokens and show the mark fake figures.
It’s a long term thing that takes a ton of work…I have no idea how the scammers even pull it off at scale.
This site goes into more detail; https://www.techtarget.com/whatis/feature/Pig-butchering-sca...
Someone's obviously making the websites, a few other people are finding the victims, and all the money is funneled to one overlord who pays everyone else a small cut of the stolen money.
It is appalling that no social platform is taking this seriously.
It is appalling that no social platform is taking this seriously.
Tumblr has created a special reporting type exactly for these, and they do disappear afterwards quickly (tested this). But by the amount of requests I still receive daily from fresh and empty accounts, I guess the work on avoiding them in the first place still has a lot to catch up. A quarantine period for fresh users risks alienating legit ones, IP filtering won't bring it too far, no idea what one could do to quench it.
> It is appalling that no social platform is taking this seriously.
The big social media corps won't eat into their profits by hiring people to find the scammers.
It will take a law that says something about keeping a human in the loop, or that your reports should always be validated by a human.
The big social media corps won't eat into their profits by hiring people to find the scammers.
It will take a law that says something about keeping a human in the loop, or that your reports should always be validated by a human.
> It’s a long term thing that takes a ton of work…I have no idea how the scammers even pull it off at scale.
When cost of living is a few hundred dollars a month at best, looting 10k from a single mark is going to last quite the time.
When cost of living is a few hundred dollars a month at best, looting 10k from a single mark is going to last quite the time.
It's really nasty, I lost contact with an ex girlfriend after her social media got taken over by this shit. Still no idea if it was just her account that got taken over or if she got swept up into some nonsense.
Idk, I’ve seen the former happen pretty frequently. They basically just socially engineer getting ur login credentials from u. I’m not even sure how the conversation would start but I would guess it’s one of the end goals of “Special offer for u! Check your DM!” incessant comments
It felt way more insidious than that, they were really either trying to be her or roped her into something. I've seen the latter happen pretty frequently, probably because I don't tend to live in what you might call prime target countries for these types of scams to hit as an endgame (NA/Europe/wherever else the money is greener)
"The pig butchering scam is a type of fraud in which criminals lure victims into digital relationships to build trust before convincing them to invest in cryptocurrency platforms. Unbeknownst to victims, the fraudsters control the platforms and will eventually take all the money and vanish. "
I've taken it from the article here: https://www.aura.com/learn/the-pig-butchering-scam
I've taken it from the article here: https://www.aura.com/learn/the-pig-butchering-scam
See this documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW4wYV0V-5s
[deleted]
Both, for instance https://www.wired.com/story/what-is-pig-butchering-scam/
That's a nice way to avoid scams, but the cost doesn't seem worth the benefits to me as someone who otherwise has good awareness about scams. I've made some nice friends off the internet and yet to fall for a scam, so it doesn't seem worth locking out that possibility of friendship just to reduce the odds of being scammed slightly more.
I could easily see giving very different advice to a friend with less scam awareness, though (like an older friend with limited knowledge of technology).
I could easily see giving very different advice to a friend with less scam awareness, though (like an older friend with limited knowledge of technology).
This isn’t new, but it’s good to continue to report on it. I remember even back in 2005 it was generally well known that the gold farmers in World of Warcraft were likely Chinese prison labor. There were even a few articles about it: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/chinese-pr...
There's a big difference between prisoners (who at least in theory are locked up as punishment for committing a crime) and people who've been trafficked into slavery. Even the US uses prison labour, but it's people who committed crimes. What's happening in SEA is kidnappping innocent people, locking them in guarded compounds and forcing them to scam people, and they get raped or beaten if they refuse.
"Even" the US isn't much of a moral barometer for prisoner treatment. The US uses prison labor because the US is one of the worst countries for prisoner (mis)treatment, certainly the worst in the west.
> There's a big difference between prisoners (who at least in theory are locked up as punishment for committing a crime) and people who've been trafficked into slavery[...] What's happening in SEA is kidnappping innocent people
Lots of people in prison are innocent, especially in the US. Prisoners are no less deserving of rights and fair treatment than victims of trafficking. Likewise, I'm sure many trafficking victims are guilty of committing crimes (as are most people).
> There's a big difference between prisoners (who at least in theory are locked up as punishment for committing a crime) and people who've been trafficked into slavery[...] What's happening in SEA is kidnappping innocent people
Lots of people in prison are innocent, especially in the US. Prisoners are no less deserving of rights and fair treatment than victims of trafficking. Likewise, I'm sure many trafficking victims are guilty of committing crimes (as are most people).
>Prisoners are no less deserving of rights and fair treatment than victims of trafficking
Everywhere in the world it's accepted that prisoners lose the rights to freedom of movement and association; that's what being a prisoner means. In that sense trafficking victims are absolutely more deserving of those rights than convicted criminals.
Everywhere in the world it's accepted that prisoners lose the rights to freedom of movement and association; that's what being a prisoner means. In that sense trafficking victims are absolutely more deserving of those rights than convicted criminals.
This is not as simple as your argument makes it out to be. The US has a long history of imprisoning people so they can be used as slaves. Netflix has a good documentary on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krfcq5pF8u8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krfcq5pF8u8
> In that sense trafficking victims are absolutely more deserving of those rights than convicted criminals.
No. you assume conviction = guilt, and that whatever treatment that comes thereafter is just.
For instance, it appears you would endorse treating people like these trafficking victims if they were first convicted by some court you consider valid, since "that's what being a prisoner means".
No. you assume conviction = guilt, and that whatever treatment that comes thereafter is just.
For instance, it appears you would endorse treating people like these trafficking victims if they were first convicted by some court you consider valid, since "that's what being a prisoner means".
If there is profit in holding people prisoner, then there is an incentive to falsely imprison people. Or give them overly long sentences.
Agreed. There should only be a cost associated with punitive action. The incentive should be to get them out of the system (or, don't laugh- maybe rehabilitate them?), not to keep them in it.
But the people who profit are not the people who are able to falsely imprison people.
Except when judges get kickbacks from prisons for sending them prisoners.
https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-ma...
https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-ma...
Incorrect, they get kickbacks: https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-ma...
I think this is sort of the exception that proves the rule. The people profiting form prisons have direct incentives to increase prison populations , but the people who can actually falsely imprison people have, at best, illegal side channel incentives.
There are non-illegal side channels, like "tough on crime" judges getting political donations from deep-pocketed interested parties.
> In that sense trafficking victims are absolutely more deserving of those rights than convicted criminals.
Except the innocent but incorrecty convicted (non)criminals.
On the other hand, some of the victims might not be convicted but guilty of something. But even those should better be taken care of by the regular system.
Except the innocent but incorrecty convicted (non)criminals.
On the other hand, some of the victims might not be convicted but guilty of something. But even those should better be taken care of by the regular system.
I question the utility of imprisonment to achieve any legitimate social goal. It may not be an effective deterrent of the most heinous crimes. It doesn’t seem to work as rehabilitation. It only works as physical prevention of recidivism in people that lack self-awareness and self-control to prevent it, but unfortunately those are exonerating conditions in our system. It seems to me that prison should be understood and used in the opposite way: not punishment, but a compassionate alternative to remove people from society. Punishment and deterrence are something different from a behaviorist perspective, and there are other things that work better, faster, and cheaper. Physical pain is punishment: pepper spray, bullet ants, microwave cannons, carbon dioxide. Deterrence is mainly the quality of alternatives available, for which there should be a floor established, like an agricultural labor camp at sub-minimum wage.
The problem comes into play when there’s a financial incentive to imprison people.
Might is right, huh?
What would you consider an acceptable alternative? If criminals were not stripped of freedom of movement, then what would deter potential future criminals from committing crime? Prison is meant to act as a deterrent so that people with no moral compass have some incentive not to commit crimes.
According to the data, prison is not a deterrent:
https://www.vera.org/news/research-shows-that-long-prison-se...
Instead of focusing on the penal system, which is fairly hopeless, we should focus on preventing people from entering the penal system in the first place by focusing on systematic improvements that reduce criminal behavior as an appealing option. Look up "rational choice theory" with regards to criminal behavior: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory_(crimin...
But that all said, the fact that the penal system is not mutated based on sensible performance metrics such as recidivism rate etc. is a human failing. The thing is, the system has already failed them at that point and they made their decision to not cooperate with society, so of course the people who have chosen to cooperate with society (the same people who have not sufficiently contributed to the systematic improvements that would have prevented that behavior to begin with) will fail to care about them.
My participation in this is to mentor young men (some are "at-risk", which basically means that their demographics are more likely to lead to criminal behavior), which I've done a few times and which is rewarding, because young men really need it right now. If I didn't have a 2 year old son who is keeping my hands quite full, I think I'd do it again.
https://www.vera.org/news/research-shows-that-long-prison-se...
Instead of focusing on the penal system, which is fairly hopeless, we should focus on preventing people from entering the penal system in the first place by focusing on systematic improvements that reduce criminal behavior as an appealing option. Look up "rational choice theory" with regards to criminal behavior: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory_(crimin...
But that all said, the fact that the penal system is not mutated based on sensible performance metrics such as recidivism rate etc. is a human failing. The thing is, the system has already failed them at that point and they made their decision to not cooperate with society, so of course the people who have chosen to cooperate with society (the same people who have not sufficiently contributed to the systematic improvements that would have prevented that behavior to begin with) will fail to care about them.
My participation in this is to mentor young men (some are "at-risk", which basically means that their demographics are more likely to lead to criminal behavior), which I've done a few times and which is rewarding, because young men really need it right now. If I didn't have a 2 year old son who is keeping my hands quite full, I think I'd do it again.
The main purpose of prison is not rehabilitation, or deterrence, but to put dangerous individuals away so they cannot terrorize others. This is why we put rapists in cells (or, at least we try to) - every year in a jail cell is a year they aren't raping women.
that is not the main purpose at all
the main purpose is punishment, see: nonviolent drug offenders in prison
one might argue a higher level purpose is to keep "the right people" in prison, where they lose their freedom, sometimes including the freedom to run against, campaign against, and even vote out the politicians keeping them there
the main purpose is punishment, see: nonviolent drug offenders in prison
one might argue a higher level purpose is to keep "the right people" in prison, where they lose their freedom, sometimes including the freedom to run against, campaign against, and even vote out the politicians keeping them there
I might suggest that the purpose as stated, the purpose as expected and the purpose as actually practiced might all be different
Of course, in the US you can still enslave prisoners
""" Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. """
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...
""" Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. """
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...
Prison labor is not intrinsically bad, but they should not be exempt from minimum wage laws. Ideally there should be some mechanism for forcing prisons to pay the prisoners a fair market wage; even if the prisoner doesn't deserve it, the rest of the labor market deserves to not compete with underpaid prison labor. And we need another constitutional amendment, removing the exemption for convicted criminals in the 13th.
If those issues were cleared up, then giving prisoners the opportunity to learn how to earn money legitimately would be good for rehabilitation. So prison labor is not intrinsically mistreatment.
If those issues were cleared up, then giving prisoners the opportunity to learn how to earn money legitimately would be good for rehabilitation. So prison labor is not intrinsically mistreatment.
I know a few degenerates who would happily go to prison if prison labor was mining gold in WoW.
The big difference between the US and other western countries' philosophy about prison is that most (all?) EU countries see the main goal as rehabilitation whereas the US sees the primary goal as punishment.
Citation needed? I'm unfamiliar with what metric or data you could be referring to in order to conclude that the US is the worst country in the West for prisoner mistreatment.
Any metric. Pick a country with a well regarded prison system (e.g: Norway) and then compare the U.S. system on every metric to see the disparity. Injury, sickness, malnourishment, violence, education, recidivism, drugs, forced labor, mental health. No country that is typically considered as part of “the west” comes close to any of these metrics when compared to the United States.
A question for you: which country in “the west” can you think of that has worse prisoner treatment than the US?
A question for you: which country in “the west” can you think of that has worse prisoner treatment than the US?
[deleted]
Apples and oranges. Norway is a tiny country with a very homogenous population. The US is huge and very diverse socioeconomically, racially, and culturally.
Which western country do you have in mind where it might be worse to be a prisoner than the US?
That's true in principle but the laws and legal system are set up in such a way that a very large percentage of particular demographics will end up in this situation and from an outsiders perspective it doesn't look all that different.
Even if you see it as China enslaving its own citizens under false pretences of criminality, that's still quite different from private entities in one country luring people from another country under the false pretences of high-paying jobs and then enslaving them.
Yes, there are differences. But there are also some pretty worrisome similarities. And the numbers in the US are far higher than those mentioned in TFA, especially when taken over the decades that this has been happening.
The difference is that the US is a democracy and people voted for the politicians who created those laws (and the attorney generals who enforce them), so by democratic logic the people convicted by the system "deserve" to be imprisoned to some degree.
Fortunately politicians are never influenced by money or ideology and 100% represent the choices of the voters.
Tyranny of the majority is a thing.
Sometimes it's not even the majority. Politicians are elected for their main policies that usually involve a couple things, but there are thousands of laws and it doesn't follow that every one of them has majority support.
It's also a matter of inertia to "overthrow" the government in power. In democracies there's a peaceful way to do this, and in autocracies there isn't. The fact that autocratic governments aren't yet toppled does mean something, though obviously not much. But then, the fact that the government is democratically elected doesn't necessarily mean much either. (You sure Americans like Trump?)
Sometimes it's not even the majority. Politicians are elected for their main policies that usually involve a couple things, but there are thousands of laws and it doesn't follow that every one of them has majority support.
It's also a matter of inertia to "overthrow" the government in power. In democracies there's a peaceful way to do this, and in autocracies there isn't. The fact that autocratic governments aren't yet toppled does mean something, though obviously not much. But then, the fact that the government is democratically elected doesn't necessarily mean much either. (You sure Americans like Trump?)
>Tyranny of the majority is a thing.
While that may be true, surely philosophically speaking there's a significant, qualitative difference between saying "this is moral because people voted for it" and saying "this is moral because the stupid victims deserved it". Many people would accept the former, accept that prison labour is morally justified, but very few people would accept that it's morally okay for private criminal gangs to kidnap and enslave people.
While that may be true, surely philosophically speaking there's a significant, qualitative difference between saying "this is moral because people voted for it" and saying "this is moral because the stupid victims deserved it". Many people would accept the former, accept that prison labour is morally justified, but very few people would accept that it's morally okay for private criminal gangs to kidnap and enslave people.
Philosophically speaking, from the perspective of a victim it's all the same. They don't have the luxury of being able to philosophize about it, they are too busy dealing with the reality of it.
The USA still uses slave labour, sorry to inform you. Bust somebody for pot possession, and to protect society, gotta force them to work for basically free? Give me a break. Your country is still a slave leasing one, if not a slave owning one
The ancient Greeks often used crime or war as an excuse to capture slaves. At least they had the honesty to call them slaves afterwards
The ancient Greeks often used crime or war as an excuse to capture slaves. At least they had the honesty to call them slaves afterwards
> There's a big difference between prisoners (who at least in theory are locked up as punishment for committing a crime) and people who've been trafficked into slavery.
Considering what can probably get you in jail in a country like China, I’m not so sure about that.
Considering what can probably get you in jail in a country like China, I’m not so sure about that.
its also a really big misalignment of incentives when prisons can use prisoners as a profit center though their labor. they take away jobs from free people who would have been able to do those jobs and get a (more)fair wage for it
The difference is really not that large, if it exists at all which I don't find to be the case. What severity of crime justifies enslavement? You can have your sentence extended for refusing to labor, regardless of what you're originally in there for. Is that just? Is there "a big difference" between that and trafficked labor?
I don't think "Even the US" is a valid way to justify slavery. I mean, even the US had slavery at one point right?
"Slavery is still constitutionally legal in the United States."[0]
[0] https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/editorial/bs-ed-1209-13...
[0] https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/editorial/bs-ed-1209-13...
Labor historically in a lot of places, was built on peasant-serfs, indentured servitude with a duration, or in many cases slaves. I believe that many educated people in the West are not aware of the extent to which this is true throughout history.
I agree that this is true, however I also think that when we imagine slavery in the West we think of chattel slavery and the reality is that what we call slavery in these peasant-serf contexts was not the same thing, did not have the same mortality rates, etc.
Sorry, but that is insufficient evidence to me for something to be "generally well known." It is well known that there are flawed incentives to testify in Western contexts to things that did not happen in East Asia, this is known among South Korean defectors (not denying that NK is objectively terrible, one of the worst countries in the world - but defectors to SK have been known to say outright false things because this is how they get paid and get media attention and many of these publications will pay for stories).
Something that is "generally well known" by contrast is that China almost certainly harvested organs from prisoners in the 90s and early 2000s.
Something that is "generally well known" by contrast is that China almost certainly harvested organs from prisoners in the 90s and early 2000s.
My friend in Eastern Europe ran a bot farm in WoW. He ran bots on his computers that farmed resources, then sold resources for gold and then sold the gold to Chinese for end-user resale. The only labor involved was hiring some college students and paying them for each top-level character they progress that can be used for farming. He even bought my character for $50 when I stopped playing.
Unsure if it's related to the same region but in general, scammers are getting sophisticated with their attacks finding local churches and email phishing with unusually detailed information about church members. Posting videos asking prayers for specific individuals online is a bad practice since it exposes not only that individual but everyone around them to scam.
Related (as in a similar story but focusing specifically on Cambodia),
They’re Forced to Run Online Scams. Their Captors Are Untouchable (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37304188) (no comments)
They’re Forced to Run Online Scams. Their Captors Are Untouchable (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37304188) (no comments)
This is not new at all, there are US companies facilitating this (see: Tinder e.g) with zero regard for the lives of the people forced into doing this. They actively ignore these things and profit off it, absolutely disgusting.
LinkedIn and various job boards have much more responsibility than Tinder; most of the victims described in the article travel to SEA for what they've been led to believe are high-paying white-collar jobs, not because they're romance-scammed into going to meet a partner there.
LinkedIn isn't common in ASEAN. It's a uniquely North American phenomenon (194m Americans), though there is some traction in India (94m), Brazil (60m), and China (57m).
Most users offered the jobs are getting them via everything apps like WeChat, Zalo, WhatsApp forwards, Viber, Line, etc.
Most users offered the jobs are getting them via everything apps like WeChat, Zalo, WhatsApp forwards, Viber, Line, etc.
> It's a uniquely North American phenomenon
I don't think that's an entirely accurate assessment. There's a significant userbase in Europe as well, on the same order of magnitude as North America.
I don't think that's an entirely accurate assessment. There's a significant userbase in Europe as well, on the same order of magnitude as North America.
This is an accurate assessment, on the other hand things like tinder actually have more reach in Asia mostly due to cultural differences.
[deleted]
LinkedIn has a much lower hit rate, because people tend to search for region specific jobs, whereas Tinder you can send any location you desire with your fake profile (but they're very easy to spot).
The Tinder things are very rarely romance scams, they pivot to crypto scams immediately, "I work in the finance industry scoping out markets for crypto" etc - then I'd imagine they'd encourage someone to invest but they usually see through my attempts at scamming them back, one day I'll figure it out.
The Tinder things are very rarely romance scams, they pivot to crypto scams immediately, "I work in the finance industry scoping out markets for crypto" etc - then I'd imagine they'd encourage someone to invest but they usually see through my attempts at scamming them back, one day I'll figure it out.
LinkedIn was used in a lot of scams with fake jobs.
Sure, but the hit rate is still much lower.
Tinder slave-labour is used also for assembling drones in Russia that attack Ukraine. Source (RU): https://istories.media/news/2023/07/24/studenti-dolzhni-stra...
What is tinder doing to facilitate this? I assumed bots on there were just financial scam bots not of the trafficking kind
"bots" don't run on their own. While the initial message might be from a bot, leads need to then be coached into falling for the scam which involves human labor and can very well be such enslaved victims trapped in third-world countries.
Correct, I did some research into this, while the initial match is automated, you're connected with someone likely under duress, Tinder/Match do not care about this at all (in my present country its 80%+ profiles that are evidently human trafficking and extortion). After asking what they intend to do about the horrific rights violations they're profiting off, they said, "we don't care" literally.
There is also the collateral, the profiles/photos they steal are of real people, which may or may not end up in real life ramifications for them. It used to be entirely generic Asians (Orient, not SE, as they're more attractive to the west apparently) - but these days they've upped the game and use region specific photos (ie; in my case, Slavic origin)
There is also the collateral, the profiles/photos they steal are of real people, which may or may not end up in real life ramifications for them. It used to be entirely generic Asians (Orient, not SE, as they're more attractive to the west apparently) - but these days they've upped the game and use region specific photos (ie; in my case, Slavic origin)
As soon as sam altman hears about this he will make a proposal about replacing scam humans with ai. Which in itself is better than trafficking humans i suppose.
Training AI also requires lots of human labor. https://gizmodo.com/openai-chatgpt-ai-chat-bot-1850001021
AI can't feel suffering, after all.
Indeed. It's usually those around it that feel it.
ai is literally the human equivalent of a sociopath and/or narcissist, it's devoid of human emotion
Tinder has become totally swarmed with these kind of scammers. It’s way worse than it was a few years ago.
It’s becoming basically unusable unless you communicate with photo verified users only, but I’m sure a lot of photo verified accounts are run by these scammers too.
It’s becoming basically unusable unless you communicate with photo verified users only, but I’m sure a lot of photo verified accounts are run by these scammers too.
Yup, the verification works against regular users and in favour of automation. But that's a good business model for them, without impossibly attractive potential matches nobody would pay for anything, so they have no financial desire to stop it.
Slavery is an old, detestable practice. There are more slaves worldwide today than in any other time in history. Welcome to modern civilization. Contemplate that the next time you use something made in China or another third world country. This is a common practice.
https://www.un.org/en/delegate/50-million-people-modern-slav...
https://www.un.org/en/delegate/50-million-people-modern-slav...
My wife's niece is from Laos and works for one of these chinese scam shops in the golden triangle. She is there voluntarily because it makes 5 times more money than her best alternative. Morally repugnant of course.
There's a recent Chinese blockbuster about this called No More Bets, inspired by a true story. But in the movie the victim is saved; in real life he's still enslaved
Another one is Lost In The Stars.
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/haven-for-scams-hit-movies...
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/haven-for-scams-hit-movies...
[deleted]
JFK files: How a Soviet lie that the CIA shot the US president became the original 'fake news' story
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/jfk-files-how-soviet-lie-that-cia-...
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/jfk-files-how-soviet-lie-that-cia-...
I wonder if low quality scams (made by humans) are still going to be a thing given advances in AI.
I bet a human sounding bot can already make a phone call and scam most of our grandparents far better than the average human scammer. Add the ability to mimic the voice of a relative and you can get pretty high success rates, even with more tech-savvy victims I bet.
I bet a human sounding bot can already make a phone call and scam most of our grandparents far better than the average human scammer. Add the ability to mimic the voice of a relative and you can get pretty high success rates, even with more tech-savvy victims I bet.
First it was Kenyan academic ghost writers for hire, now AI putting traffickers out or business too? What's this world coming to....
Sadly I don't expect things will get better for the trafficked victims, this only lowers their "value" in the eyes of criminals. They will probably find even worse uses for them.
Low quality and obvious scams are a feature, they filter only the most gullible.
I think you only need to filter when your scale is very limited due to the effort involved. A human can only make so many calls per day. AI makes these attempts much cheaper.
I think AI chatbots will lift these scams to a new level never seen before without any telltale signs that we can spot.
Well, maybe it can fix the grammatical mistakes and inconsistencies in their stories. There still remains the fact that this person you've never met before is suggesting you send hundreds of thousands of dollars to this great investment platform you've never heard of and is very interested in you yet can't meet up despite have talked for weeks.
Eventually, it's going there but at the moment, people are mostly using low-tech methods to scam others. Oftentimes we'll overestimate/underestimate the abilities of scammers. It's important to realize that access to cloud services and sophisticated AI requires money for that infrastructure and these paltry scammers won't do that unless it's a part of a bigger org.
I'm guessing that most of these scams are coming from large orgs as described in the OP/comments, this seems like a fairly expensive operation. I'm also guessing that for about the same cost they could use AI to cast a much wider net, making it more profitable even if the quality is lower. The paltry individual scammers will probably go out of business soon.
it's already happening at scale, there was a 60 minutes segment on this recently https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-being-targeted-by-grandpar...
The "ethical hacker" shows them how to use an AI to spoof the 60 minutes host's voice, then use it to scam a 60 minutes employee on camera, in real time. It works.
The "ethical hacker" shows them how to use an AI to spoof the 60 minutes host's voice, then use it to scam a 60 minutes employee on camera, in real time. It works.
> The scam centres generate revenue amounting to billions of US dollars each year. Revenue in 2021 from scamming globally amounted to USD 7.8 billion worth of stolen cryptocurrency.
Crypto has made scamming easier than ever. Ironically, it probably is making it easier to track how impactful it is too.
Crypto has made scamming easier than ever. Ironically, it probably is making it easier to track how impactful it is too.
It's a nice honeypot. All the scammers are busy scamming each other.
Are they scamming Westerners? (TFA wasn't clear). They'd have to be pretty fluent in idomatic English to do that.
Do the 5-10 messages I get each week "Hi! This is Irene. Are you going to the party?" come from trafficed people?
Do the 5-10 messages I get each week "Hi! This is Irene. Are you going to the party?" come from trafficed people?
I'm guessing that they're mostly targeting the richer Asian countries, including China (which is on average is poorer than the West, but in the aggregate has comparable spending power as North America).
From what I understand, initial messages don't come from the slaves; instead, you get connected to one if you reply. So the english skills might shift drastically between the first and second message.
If it's not automated, it could easily be some sort of pre-defined script. I don't get many anymore, but I've definitely had mysterious text messages from different numbers supposedly across the country that were nearly identical. Usually it was "hey is this [random name], where were you last night?" I assume this was meant to draw me into some sort of dialogue. It happened enough that I can't really believe it was just a misdial.
They started off targeting Chinese speakers (Mainland China, Taiwan, HK, Malaysia, Singapore) but expanded into English and Thai over the past few years.
A relative of mine got scammed for tens of thousands of dollars exactly this way. They are college educated, COO of the company they founded in the US, and thought they were just making a new friend over several months after receiving a message that was addressed to them by error.
"Many of the victims are well-educated, sometimes coming from professional jobs or with graduate or even post-graduate degrees, computer-literate and multi-lingual." (from the report)
Related; 130 trafficked Indian workers were rescued last year.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/8/indian-workers-resc...
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/8/indian-workers-resc...
Hi, this is UPS. Your packages was the wherehouse due to an error in the shipping address. Please contact our customer service immediately at http://scams4you.xyz
Not even scam bosses allow for remote work i see. Cant they just like hire willing scam workers instead of trafficking people?
It's harder to beat the workers into working harder remotely. Remote workers can also more easily work with law enforcement, quit, and start competing scams.
A bit like legitimiate workers minus the beating part. That's replaced by hazing, harrasment, gaslighting and bullying at the work place. Same end goal, worker control, for both types of businesses, legitimate or scam.
The scams with willing people are just called multi-level marketing.
This is an extreme and poignant caricature of the labor market in general as vast numbers of people experience it. Not to minimize what's happening here: extreme financial pressure with very high stakes is not rare. It's disturbing to see the extremes because there's no hard line between normal labor and this, it's really a continuum.
Aside from enforcement and regulation, what really prevents these exploitative forms of labor from spreading?
Aside from enforcement and regulation, what really prevents these exploitative forms of labor from spreading?
A good thing that soon AI will be able to scam us as good as humans so they won't need to traffick people anymore.
And would that make life better for traffick victims in any way? They’ll brutally be repurposed for some other dirty work
Hundreds of thousands? That's a mind boggling scale. That's at least the size of a decent city. How do you even cope with the logistics of dealing with 100k+ scammers?
The people doing this and anyone supporting it should be put away forever. Still a person's liberty and making them a slave is one of the worst possible lives for anyone and should be relegated only to the worst of criminals like murderers, rapists, and enslavers. I have zero tolerance for those types of people and think the international community shouldn't either.
This is why I discourage people from playing games with scammers to “waste their time.”
I always assumed that they were not really doing this job by choice, whether it’s modern slavery or not.
You’re not saving someone else from getting scammed, you’re messing up a quota for someone who might be physically punished for missing it.
I always assumed that they were not really doing this job by choice, whether it’s modern slavery or not.
You’re not saving someone else from getting scammed, you’re messing up a quota for someone who might be physically punished for missing it.
It's sad that these scammers are victims themselves, but measures that reduce the extent to which these victims can victimize other people are a clear net good for society. You won't save a trafficked scammer by hanging up early so he can move on to easier marks, but you can prevent him from using the next hour to make a new victim out of somebody else.
Or to put this in other terms; you're a Ukrainian machine gunner. In the distance you see Russian soldiers. You know that many of them are from the Russian gulags, unjustly imprisoned in an oppressive autocracy, quite likely for a crime they didn't commit, and now forced to invade a foreign country. You pull the trigger and mow those victims down, because if you don't those victims will make victims out of your friends, family, and fellow countrymen.
Or to put this in other terms; you're a Ukrainian machine gunner. In the distance you see Russian soldiers. You know that many of them are from the Russian gulags, unjustly imprisoned in an oppressive autocracy, quite likely for a crime they didn't commit, and now forced to invade a foreign country. You pull the trigger and mow those victims down, because if you don't those victims will make victims out of your friends, family, and fellow countrymen.
If everyones quota goes to zero perhaps the master behind these scams go down with it.
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If I don’t pay the prostitute it’s definitely not the pimp who is going to get bruises.
> You’re not saving someone else from getting scammed, you’re messing up a quota for someone who might be physically punished for missing it.
At some level, starving the beast is the only way to stop it. The more crimes they commit, the more likely it is they get caught. You can't account for the disposition of victims in the hands of thugs, and there's no guarantee victims won't get fed to pigs even if they were consistently Employee of the Month. If you already have a viable way to dispose of bodies, why let anybody leave?
The better reason not to play games with scammers is that you're antagonizing someone who does not respect rule of law. Consider what someone overconfident in their ability to commit crimes unchecked might do to you in retribution.
At some level, starving the beast is the only way to stop it. The more crimes they commit, the more likely it is they get caught. You can't account for the disposition of victims in the hands of thugs, and there's no guarantee victims won't get fed to pigs even if they were consistently Employee of the Month. If you already have a viable way to dispose of bodies, why let anybody leave?
The better reason not to play games with scammers is that you're antagonizing someone who does not respect rule of law. Consider what someone overconfident in their ability to commit crimes unchecked might do to you in retribution.
They torture people to do online scams? What a bizarre world this has become. Never thought we would see trafficked and online scams in the same sentence. Effectively, I guess, they don’t want to pay the employees and so force them at gun point.
i remember an article about people from Moldova trafficked to Turkey, where they promptly had one or two organs harvested and then sent back home.
the horror...
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I don't know about Myanmar but I am a little bit skeptical about "hundreds of thousands" in the rest (Thailand, Laos, Cambodia). I've traveled the region extensively and am in a remote place in Laos now.
I think the UN is using the word "trafficked" way too liberally. While I heard stories from fellow travelers and citizens (only in Cambodia, be careful in Phnom Penh and don't go to Sinahouk); my guess is that the majority of these are in some kind of situation (like owing money to the boss) or maybe justifying what they are doing (it's not a crime if you are forced!).
For some reason, I find this "hundreds of thousands" quite sinister. It devalues the whole issue as it normalizes it; while there are some people now in real need of help and in real danger.
I think the UN is using the word "trafficked" way too liberally. While I heard stories from fellow travelers and citizens (only in Cambodia, be careful in Phnom Penh and don't go to Sinahouk); my guess is that the majority of these are in some kind of situation (like owing money to the boss) or maybe justifying what they are doing (it's not a crime if you are forced!).
For some reason, I find this "hundreds of thousands" quite sinister. It devalues the whole issue as it normalizes it; while there are some people now in real need of help and in real danger.
I mean, these aren't people locked up on slave ships and hauled to a new world or something, but they are absolutely trafficked in that they are forced to do the work against their will without a way out - literally modern slavery.
This comment feels mega weird to me, like you're trying to downplay the plight of these hundreds of thousands of modern-day slaves because it doesn't meet your definition of trafficking.
I'm certainly going to trust official figures coming from the UN over someone on HN who happens to be traveling in SEA
This comment feels mega weird to me, like you're trying to downplay the plight of these hundreds of thousands of modern-day slaves because it doesn't meet your definition of trafficking.
I'm certainly going to trust official figures coming from the UN over someone on HN who happens to be traveling in SEA
Many advocacy groups (particularly those making claims about human trafficking) fudge their numbers to make their cause seem more important, and you can see why, we would probably not be discussing this article without such an eye catching statistic in it.
If you try to see how they got this number in their report it is "credible estimates/sources" that are "on file at OHCR". So there's no way to independently verify this, you have to just trust them, which doesn't breed confidence in their estimates.
If you try to see how they got this number in their report it is "credible estimates/sources" that are "on file at OHCR". So there's no way to independently verify this, you have to just trust them, which doesn't breed confidence in their estimates.
Anecdotally I met an NGO worker once in Phenom Phen who was drunk and admitted exactly this -- because he had to justify his 200K Euro job in that city. With that salary you're like a king, you'd probably do alot to keep it.
I don't see in any country in SEA -- and I live out here -- how you could hide 100K people in concertation camps to do high tech scamming.
There is a comment above about someone's Laotian wife working hard conditions doing these scams because it pays much better than local work -- this seems much more convincing.
Even the issue with the Vietnamese casino workers was only 40 people -- though not to minimize it's importance.
There is a comment above about someone's Laotian wife working hard conditions doing these scams because it pays much better than local work -- this seems much more convincing.
Even the issue with the Vietnamese casino workers was only 40 people -- though not to minimize it's importance.
We're talking about hundreds of thousands across several countries, not in a single facility. If you have 50 prisoners per building, you only need 4000 buildings like that to get to 200k. This could be happening anywhere, even in large cities. You don't need huge infrastructure per location to do this, though it does take some logistics to keep it up. Running a clandestine prison in the middle of a city is not trivial, but certainly not impossible to keep under wraps. I'm surprised it's profitable, though.
For Laos and Cambodia you do. They have small populations and most cities don’t have any large buildings at all. I can understand this happening in remote areas in these countries where there are no locals and no local law enforcement. But to be happening in hundreds pf thousands scale at these small cities is not reasonable.