Chinese University Tops MIT in Engineering Rankings(blogs.wsj.com)
blogs.wsj.com
Chinese University Tops MIT in Engineering Rankings
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/10/08/chinese-university-tops-mit-in-engineering-rankings/?mod=e2fb
72 comments
Seeing everyone on here so dismissive is simply shocking to me. If you don't like these results or don't believe them look at the overall trend folks. A decade ago there wouldn't have been the Chinese University in the top 10. Now they have half the top rankings. I take my hat off to them; I respect their achievements and if you follow the trend forward they look unstoppable.and of the people at these universities they or their parents grew up in villages without electricity with nothing. they've built out of that the ability to scratch the stars quickly. much respect let's hope this doesn't turn into a latent Cold War
BA/MA in Chinese studies here. I greatly admire China's accomplishments, starting back around 1,000 BC :)
China today is on a trajectory of becoming the premier world technological power, simply based on its tremendous energy and drive and respect for learning.
The U.S. and Europe are in decline, by comparison. The U.S. in particular is relying heavily on Chinese and other foreign students to keep its science, math, and engineering graduate programs going. The native U.S. population is lazy and unmotivated by comparison.
And tellingly, increasing numbers of Chinese grads are returning to China to work rather than seeking citizenship in the U.S. Even non-Chinese are flocking to China to start up technology companies, something unheard of a generation or two back.
I too hope this doesn't turn into some kind of cold war.
China today is on a trajectory of becoming the premier world technological power, simply based on its tremendous energy and drive and respect for learning.
The U.S. and Europe are in decline, by comparison. The U.S. in particular is relying heavily on Chinese and other foreign students to keep its science, math, and engineering graduate programs going. The native U.S. population is lazy and unmotivated by comparison.
And tellingly, increasing numbers of Chinese grads are returning to China to work rather than seeking citizenship in the U.S. Even non-Chinese are flocking to China to start up technology companies, something unheard of a generation or two back.
I too hope this doesn't turn into some kind of cold war.
'The U.S. and Europe are in decline, by comparison'. No argument about this. Where are the passionate national debates about why this is so and what can be done about it? Or maybe they are going on and I'm not seeing them.
Don't you think China had some help getting to where they are today? Western governments and corporations have systematically moved all technological and manufacturing power to China for the past 60 years. How can the U.S. population possibly compete with China, when we've been completely sold out to them? Manufacturing and doing other types of business is not cheap or easy in the U.S. because of the situation that our trusted institutions have driven us into. I really don't think it has anything to do with the population being lazy or unmotivated.
My bet - I think it's going to be a hot war and I think that's been the plan all along. China was conquered long ago by the West, but they are valued by the powers that be since their people are so easily enslaved. China is going to be the new super power and the US simply won't exist anymore. Just my opinion and I hope I'm wrong.
My bet - I think it's going to be a hot war and I think that's been the plan all along. China was conquered long ago by the West, but they are valued by the powers that be since their people are so easily enslaved. China is going to be the new super power and the US simply won't exist anymore. Just my opinion and I hope I'm wrong.
> Seeing everyone on here so dismissive is simply shocking to me.
Not to me. China bashing on HN is surprisingly common and rewarded with karma. Given that the average HNer doesn't know much about China, I assume the typical cognitive process goes something like "I want to believe this comment => up vote". I personally look forward to the day where we can put nationalism behind us. Also, props to Tsinghua.
Not to me. China bashing on HN is surprisingly common and rewarded with karma. Given that the average HNer doesn't know much about China, I assume the typical cognitive process goes something like "I want to believe this comment => up vote". I personally look forward to the day where we can put nationalism behind us. Also, props to Tsinghua.
So… Everyone is righty pointing out the uselessness of ranking systems. But, these are also the same kinds of ranking systems that place MIT, Cambridge, Stanford & the rest in the elite. Publication, reputation, etc. It's not about a specific ranking system either. Every ranking uses circular, subjective or self fulfilling measures. These reputations are also very long lived and carry outside of their context. Great research in biology does not really indicate great undergraduate teaching in the humanities.
Universities attract students, funding, press and all the other goodies with their reputations. Students then trade on these reputations. It's a big problem overall, and it doesn't have good feedback loops of the kind which will encourage universities to improve.
Also, the more attention the rankings get, the more they get gamed and corrupted.
Here's the thing, say you are looking for a place to study mechanical engineering, it will be difficult to find the new upstart schools that are doing great work. It's even harder to get employers, parents and colleagues to respect it. That's to say nothing of a course attempting to teach a subject like engineering outside the paradigm of Universities altogether.
It's a pickle.
The world is way too big for us to rely on a vague name recognition & reputation system anymore. It's too dynamic to wait for them to self correct and it's way too thirsty for better ways to train and educate to be without a dynamic system where new approaches and institutions can emerge.
Universities attract students, funding, press and all the other goodies with their reputations. Students then trade on these reputations. It's a big problem overall, and it doesn't have good feedback loops of the kind which will encourage universities to improve.
Also, the more attention the rankings get, the more they get gamed and corrupted.
Here's the thing, say you are looking for a place to study mechanical engineering, it will be difficult to find the new upstart schools that are doing great work. It's even harder to get employers, parents and colleagues to respect it. That's to say nothing of a course attempting to teach a subject like engineering outside the paradigm of Universities altogether.
It's a pickle.
The world is way too big for us to rely on a vague name recognition & reputation system anymore. It's too dynamic to wait for them to self correct and it's way too thirsty for better ways to train and educate to be without a dynamic system where new approaches and institutions can emerge.
The Weibuo quote in the article sums it up. Would you rather have your child go to Tsinghua or MIT? The fact is, MIT remains the most prestigious scientific and engineering school in the world, and number of published articles be damned.
Another metric not considered by USNWR is academic freedom. Can students and faculty at Tsinghua use Google? I don't think so. No Google Scholar, no Google Books, not even Search. How ridiculous. Without equal access to the Internet, a fair comparison is not possible. And what if a student published an article complaining about lack of access to some internet resources? End of career.
That said, this evaluation should be a wake up call to American educators that our formerly great academy has deteriorated, brought down by decades of decaying performance in K-12 and lack of energy and commitment in the universities, where many or most of the science and engineering graduate students are foreign born.
Another metric not considered by USNWR is academic freedom. Can students and faculty at Tsinghua use Google? I don't think so. No Google Scholar, no Google Books, not even Search. How ridiculous. Without equal access to the Internet, a fair comparison is not possible. And what if a student published an article complaining about lack of access to some internet resources? End of career.
That said, this evaluation should be a wake up call to American educators that our formerly great academy has deteriorated, brought down by decades of decaying performance in K-12 and lack of energy and commitment in the universities, where many or most of the science and engineering graduate students are foreign born.
They usually know how to jump the wall or get direct lines out for erm research purposes. ChinaSys, an acedemic/industry systems conference, is taking registrations in... Google docs.
I hope this is not a wake up call: what we don't need in academia is more gaming of the publication and citation system! This is a wake up call to not take usnews too seriously.
I hope this is not a wake up call: what we don't need in academia is more gaming of the publication and citation system! This is a wake up call to not take usnews too seriously.
Interesting. I guess when it's a matter of national prestige and encouraging scientific accomplishment, the authorities might look the other way. But that's not really the same as complete and open access.
And I agree with you that we don't need even more gaming of the system; but we definitely need more motivation of K-12 students in the math and science fields.
And I agree with you that we don't need even more gaming of the system; but we definitely need more motivation of K-12 students in the math and science fields.
The "motivation" should come from a genuine curiosity and interest in making the world a better place. Academia, even western academia, is often motivated by securing more funding so they can....secure more funding. That creates a closed loop that serves no one outside of it.
The US News report just shows who is better at gaming the system. Heck, even MIT has its problems, though you'll find more pockets of genuine interest and capabilities. Tsinghua also has a lot of great researchers, but usually this is inspite of, not because of, the games played to optimize for these metrics.
The US News report just shows who is better at gaming the system. Heck, even MIT has its problems, though you'll find more pockets of genuine interest and capabilities. Tsinghua also has a lot of great researchers, but usually this is inspite of, not because of, the games played to optimize for these metrics.
China only has two prestigious universities, Peking and Tsing Hua. They collect all financial and political support to make these two universities rank higher and higher, not only to save face on the international stage, but also to make sure all intelligence is under the control of Beijing. They may really have reached success in winning global reputation, but the chance for their research to turn into benefit for common people will be very small.
American education based on sales. It sells knowledge and that is why it is going downhill. Being politically correct on races is another curse. And don't talk about creativity when you students cannot do math on paper!
It is? Can you provide some evidence?
If it's true, as a matter of national pride, let's hope other countries join the race to have the top ranked engineering university. We could use a dozen more MIT's in the world.
It'd be more interesting to see a ranking by only the average competitiveness of their undergraduate school students, and I bet you will see lots of Chinese and Indian university on top and American Universities are not anywhere close.
America has so many good universities but at the same time just a small talent pool.
America has so many good universities but at the same time just a small talent pool.
For some Indians who may be invested in knowing the rankings, there are 9 of them with the first one starting at 100th position (IIT-D). Ouch.
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To those that believe that US system is rotten and ineffective and think that Chinese are doing something right because they are Chinese I can tell you only one thing.
NEVER TRUST A COMMUNIST REGIME.
Even if you compare millionaires to millionaires the quality of life in China is far worse than in the USA. Never trust a communist propaganda. Never ever do that. The gov and chinese in general are known for trying to save face at every occasion and will fabricate anything that can benefit them.
If USA and UK is so bad then why thousands of Chinese are trying to immigrate there ? In Communist regime even if you are good and talented you will become a property of the state and they will use you for their benefit. Do not expect a good quality life but constant abuse for more propaganda and mind control.
No wonder that massive amount of people of Hong Kong are requesting british passports. Because in China you are nothing more than a property of a regime.
Even if you compare millionaires to millionaires the quality of life in China is far worse than in the USA. Never trust a communist propaganda. Never ever do that. The gov and chinese in general are known for trying to save face at every occasion and will fabricate anything that can benefit them.
If USA and UK is so bad then why thousands of Chinese are trying to immigrate there ? In Communist regime even if you are good and talented you will become a property of the state and they will use you for their benefit. Do not expect a good quality life but constant abuse for more propaganda and mind control.
No wonder that massive amount of people of Hong Kong are requesting british passports. Because in China you are nothing more than a property of a regime.
Please do not take HN threads on ideological flamewar tangents.
I'm a chinese. I think most of what you said is right. The gov achieved a lot of success. At the same time, they made lots of mistakes and commited lots of crimes.
Thanks for commenting. I hope you did not get from my comment above that I have a negative opinion about chinese people in general.
It's quiet the opposite in fact. People of China have achieved a lot but I am afraid too many of chinese people had to and still have to suffer and distribution of wealth in China is worse than in the other parts of the earth.
It's quiet the opposite in fact. People of China have achieved a lot but I am afraid too many of chinese people had to and still have to suffer and distribution of wealth in China is worse than in the other parts of the earth.
A bogus claim like this is no better than any communist propaganda at all
What? You mean the People's Republic of Capitalism?
Good then that China is an autocratic capitalist country and not communist.
Yeah autocratic capitalist country my ass. Did you get your pills today ?
There is not a true communist state in the world. Not even DPRK. But China after DPRK has the most communist traits. It's ugly regime and if you have never been there or did business with them you have no clue what you are talking about. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
> Yeah autocratic capitalist country my ass. Did you get your pills today?
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Ahahaha! China is not the Soviet Union. It's a capitalist society like almost anywhere else, and I'm positive that being rich in China rocks (apart from the air pollution).
Or getting caught in a clamp down and being put in front of a firing squad to "Pour encourjay lays ortras" As the Late Terry Pratchett put it.
Then you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. And the air pollution in China is something you can't imagine. The VW scandal is nothing compared to chinese air pollution.
And China is far worse than the former Soviet Union because they have more money and more control. Being lower class in China is far worse than in former states of the soviet union.
And China is far worse than the former Soviet Union because they have more money and more control. Being lower class in China is far worse than in former states of the soviet union.
You talk a whole lot, but you've never addressed his point that "it would rock being rich in China". (I am not taking a side).
Being rich does not guarantee that you will have a good life anywhere. There are numerous other things you have to consider.
Yes a rich man can buy a big land for himself and build a wall to keep the beggars outside. He can even move to the countryside and never go out or use a private jets / helicopters.
The thing is that China is a home for a lot of people and is too polluted and crowded because of wealth distribution. If people do not care about the environment, intellectual property and a countless of other things then being rich and filthy rich are too different things.
A wealthy man can walk the streets of european/american cities without worrying too much about its health or not having a space for himself without guards. Do not forget that european / us cities are dwarves compared to Asia in general.
The movie Elysium is a good picture (maybe too exaggerated but hey) of people being wealthy in China.
Yes you can have a good life in a golden cage but it's still a cage.
The thing is that China is a home for a lot of people and is too polluted and crowded because of wealth distribution. If people do not care about the environment, intellectual property and a countless of other things then being rich and filthy rich are too different things.
A wealthy man can walk the streets of european/american cities without worrying too much about its health or not having a space for himself without guards. Do not forget that european / us cities are dwarves compared to Asia in general.
The movie Elysium is a good picture (maybe too exaggerated but hey) of people being wealthy in China.
Yes you can have a good life in a golden cage but it's still a cage.
Compared to the US, China has a lot less of both violent crime and beggars. I'm sorry but it seems you don't know what you are talking about.
First of all you know nothing about me and that's fine.
Second just because you live in Hong Kong or Shenzhen it does not mean you know anything about China. Especially these 2 do not reflect anything at all about China. And that is fine that might be the reason why have you chosen them and not the other places in China.
Third. You do not seem to speak the Chinese language.
Fourth. Just because you have a positive prejudice towards China does not mean you are right.
Fifth. If you would know something about authoritarian regimes and especially China or NK you would know that hiding and punishing beggars is a common practice to save face.
Sixth. Please educate me how country of 1.3bn has a lot less beggars and violent crimes than US a country of 320m.
Seventh. If you have never lived in a communist country you surely can't be aware of propaganda and hiding of crimes. Ask some chinese friends of yours how hiding crimes, especially the violent ones goes in China. How it was in every communist state. You will be surprised.
Eighth. I understand you like China/Chinese more than Americans but do not close your eyes before the crimes of these regimes I am begging you. For all of those that died and suffered in gulags
Ninth. I recommend you to visit countryside and especially the northern region if you have the balls.
Second just because you live in Hong Kong or Shenzhen it does not mean you know anything about China. Especially these 2 do not reflect anything at all about China. And that is fine that might be the reason why have you chosen them and not the other places in China.
Third. You do not seem to speak the Chinese language.
Fourth. Just because you have a positive prejudice towards China does not mean you are right.
Fifth. If you would know something about authoritarian regimes and especially China or NK you would know that hiding and punishing beggars is a common practice to save face.
Sixth. Please educate me how country of 1.3bn has a lot less beggars and violent crimes than US a country of 320m.
Seventh. If you have never lived in a communist country you surely can't be aware of propaganda and hiding of crimes. Ask some chinese friends of yours how hiding crimes, especially the violent ones goes in China. How it was in every communist state. You will be surprised.
Eighth. I understand you like China/Chinese more than Americans but do not close your eyes before the crimes of these regimes I am begging you. For all of those that died and suffered in gulags
Ninth. I recommend you to visit countryside and especially the northern region if you have the balls.
If you love American life just stay here and no one is asking you to move to China.
There are tons of people (not necessarily rich) prefer living in China than in America. They just care about different things.
As a Chinese citizen living in San Francisco right now, I would say the overall living quality in America is no where near as good as in China. If not for the prosperous software industry here, there is no reason to stay in America at all.
China has its problems but America has its own too. The same goes both for the society and the government. I do feel a lot safer walking down the streets in China, and air pollution has never been a big issue. What you see on news headlines are not what you see everyday.
There are tons of people (not necessarily rich) prefer living in China than in America. They just care about different things.
As a Chinese citizen living in San Francisco right now, I would say the overall living quality in America is no where near as good as in China. If not for the prosperous software industry here, there is no reason to stay in America at all.
China has its problems but America has its own too. The same goes both for the society and the government. I do feel a lot safer walking down the streets in China, and air pollution has never been a big issue. What you see on news headlines are not what you see everyday.
I am not going to try to convince you that's none of my business. You are either coming from top 10% of talented chinese or your family was simply rich. 90% chinese can't afford what you can.
And air pollution is not problem in China ? Are you kidding me ? Just ask my any korean in Seoul how air pollution from China is not a problem. And THAT IS SEOUL that's being hit by chinese air pollution.
The pollution in chinese cities is too big to not consider it an issue.
And air pollution is not problem in China ? Are you kidding me ? Just ask my any korean in Seoul how air pollution from China is not a problem. And THAT IS SEOUL that's being hit by chinese air pollution.
The pollution in chinese cities is too big to not consider it an issue.
I'm not saying air pollution is not a problem at all. It may had gone really bad in a few major cities a few times, but it's not something everyone gets to experience. The overall air quality is not top notch but it's also not so bad as many of the Americans think. There are many things I hate about China but air pollution won't even be in the list.
Comparing to that I'm bothered a lot more here about the prevalence of guns, drugs, high crime rates, the unfairness in education (how many ivy league students come from poor families?), ridiculously expensive medical system, so many bullshit in the law, government wasting so much money while getting almost nothing done... I'd happily trade air pollution with solution to any of these problems. Sometimes it's just funny to see how Americans could be okay to accept all of that really well, some may not even realize these are all appalling problems, while they still give such a big fuss about air pollution in China.
Comparing to that I'm bothered a lot more here about the prevalence of guns, drugs, high crime rates, the unfairness in education (how many ivy league students come from poor families?), ridiculously expensive medical system, so many bullshit in the law, government wasting so much money while getting almost nothing done... I'd happily trade air pollution with solution to any of these problems. Sometimes it's just funny to see how Americans could be okay to accept all of that really well, some may not even realize these are all appalling problems, while they still give such a big fuss about air pollution in China.
The very basic thing is : gun is not allowed anywhere in china except military and special forces. This comes down to one thing , it is hard to start violation here. And chinese here is controlling 1.5 billion people. Do not talk about the things that you dont know shit about it. You tell me i like more of china than america but here is the truth i havent seen any gun violence in china thus i havent seen gangs or mafia here. Dont believe in the tales of triad or other stuff. They stayed in past and china is one of the safest countries in the world. I suggest you to watch less fox and cnn. In china you can freely walk around drunk around 4 or 5 am without worry.
Sorry but your yellow fever is blinding you to see and accept the facts. I am not american nor is english my native language and i do not watch any mainstream english media.
Yes you do not see a gun violence in China because guns are banned and are only in possession of military and triads. The most violent crimes are carried by the poorest using knives,shovels or anything they can use. And that is not being reported by anybody. Or do you really believe in country of 1.5bn that it is impossible to hide these crimes ?
In China if you are a white foreigner you can freely walk around drunk because if you go missing it is not that easy to hide the truth from the public.
Guns are US problem hey have you heard of 2nd most brutal shooting ? That happened in Korea a country where even a licensed hunters have to put their weapons in safes in police stations.
The worst mafia in China is its government. I know you do not care about any of these because you live in a relatively rich region but only if you would see millions of poor souls working in China then you would finally understand.
Rich and big cities are not CHINA! They are mostly a relict of past western influence.
Yes you do not see a gun violence in China because guns are banned and are only in possession of military and triads. The most violent crimes are carried by the poorest using knives,shovels or anything they can use. And that is not being reported by anybody. Or do you really believe in country of 1.5bn that it is impossible to hide these crimes ?
In China if you are a white foreigner you can freely walk around drunk because if you go missing it is not that easy to hide the truth from the public.
Guns are US problem hey have you heard of 2nd most brutal shooting ? That happened in Korea a country where even a licensed hunters have to put their weapons in safes in police stations.
The worst mafia in China is its government. I know you do not care about any of these because you live in a relatively rich region but only if you would see millions of poor souls working in China then you would finally understand.
Rich and big cities are not CHINA! They are mostly a relict of past western influence.
You know what? That's a pretty reasonable argument, and I agree with it.
hahaha Have you ever lived there to have any sort of clue what you're talking about? Jeeze, I love the Internet sometimes.
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"Each school’s score is based on its number of publications and citations as well as its global and regional research reputation."
Oh lord... one is easy to game, and the other is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Oh lord... one is easy to game, and the other is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
That's how all those rankings are done. Some of them are even "worse" in that they only include english language publications, and result with US and UK taking pretty much every spot in the top 50, claiming the rest of europe is terrible.
(I'm not saying that US/UK do or don't have the best universities, I'm saying that system of ranking is terrible for so many reasons)
(I'm not saying that US/UK do or don't have the best universities, I'm saying that system of ranking is terrible for so many reasons)
The Professor I worked for in the early '90s told me that he'd been involved in some ranking exercise for one of the UK funding bodies where he was deeply unpopular as he wanted to work from objective measures and then come up with a ranking whereas the standard game was apparently to work out the rankings based on which departments everyone "knew" to be best and then designing the ranking scheme to get the "right" answer.
That kind of stuff, and the whole nonsense around the desperate scramble for publications really put me off of a career in academia.
That kind of stuff, and the whole nonsense around the desperate scramble for publications really put me off of a career in academia.
Also, more than that these rankings should weigh much more on the quality of education rather than the research outcome because a large mass of college students are misguided through these rankings. Is it the responsibility of these ranking systems or the students themselves to be more careful? I am not sure. Another way to tackle this is to have different kind of rankings- say, Research rankings, Teaching quality rankings- following more objective metrics rather than opinion based, as arethuza mentioned in his anecdote.
Exactly, so MIT has clearly been ...
Oh, wait, you mean you were implying that Tsinghua University was gaming the rankings ...
MIT students, in my experience, have been overrated for years.
Oh, wait, you mean you were implying that Tsinghua University was gaming the rankings ...
MIT students, in my experience, have been overrated for years.
In my experience, those that bash MIT have been overrated for years.
See? I can use anecdotal evidence to offend swaths of people too.
See? I can use anecdotal evidence to offend swaths of people too.
He is not claiming one or the other is gaming it, he is saying this is a terrible set of metrics to rank universities with
He is not claiming one or the other is gaming it, he is saying this is a terrible set of metrics to rank universities with
"Ok, they've outplayed us in our game. Lets call this game terrible and start a different one with new rules!"
See my other comment before attributing malice to my words. As a french, I've never in my life found the rules to be any good as they were biased against us and other non english speaking country (imho).
Except of course for the "Mines ParisTech : Professional Ranking of World Universities" :D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mines_ParisTech_:_Professional...
Which is actually a really interesting ranking. Not based on academic research whatsoever.
Which is actually a really interesting ranking. Not based on academic research whatsoever.
Though, that formula for prestige has been in place for at least the last century in European and American universities.
And it has been gamed for at least the last century. Nothing new here.