The Microsoft Surface Book Review(anandtech.com)
anandtech.com
The Microsoft Surface Book Review
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9767/microsoft-surface-book-2015-review
111 comments
Huh, that's odd. I haven't had any of those issues. In fact, apart from a few difficulties with NPM (which were NPM issues, not Windows issues), I've never had any issues with Windows 10.
I admit to missing SSH, and a nice text-centric command line (sometimes), but Powershell is a decent shell that's built in. Chocolatey is a decent package and app manager that takes 15-20 seconds to install. And Atom and Sublime work wonderfully on windows.
Also, VS, which has a awesome free community edition, can be used to develop in most languages and frameworks. If you think it's top notch you should use it.
Part of the problem I've noticed with linux users complaining about Windows is that they try and develop linux applications or web servers on windows, then complain that it's difficult. This shouldn't really be surprising. The opposite situation is trying to develop a windows application or server on linux to deploy on a windows server. It's doable with Mono, but it's difficult. But I've never heard anyone from Windows land complaining about it.
I admit to missing SSH, and a nice text-centric command line (sometimes), but Powershell is a decent shell that's built in. Chocolatey is a decent package and app manager that takes 15-20 seconds to install. And Atom and Sublime work wonderfully on windows.
Also, VS, which has a awesome free community edition, can be used to develop in most languages and frameworks. If you think it's top notch you should use it.
Part of the problem I've noticed with linux users complaining about Windows is that they try and develop linux applications or web servers on windows, then complain that it's difficult. This shouldn't really be surprising. The opposite situation is trying to develop a windows application or server on linux to deploy on a windows server. It's doable with Mono, but it's difficult. But I've never heard anyone from Windows land complaining about it.
I agree, a lot of people tend criticise Windows simply for not being Unix, which is unfair, and I like the design of the NT kernel.
And this is slightly off-topic but I have tried several times to fully embrace the Windows way, learnt PowerShell (ISE rocks), and even spent significant time building a startup using F# in VS and hosting it on Azure. In retrospect it was nice but there were just too many rough edges for me,
* Setting up a nice console environment means using a 3rd-party system like cmder/conemu + Cygwin/Msys/etc.
* Getting git working along with ssh-agent is still hit & miss
* Installing, for instance, Python packages that rely on C bindings requires extra trickery to set up,
* Chocolately isn't bad, but it is just downloading and running installers for you, it doesn't really have a dependency solver like yum or other Linux package managers do (NuGet does but don't think Chocolately uses those features). Plus it's more for packaged software than libraries/tools. OneGet may fix that in the future.
These are all surmoutable issues, for sure, but in the end it was just easier to move back to Linux. Not just for familiarity, but also convenience and ease - for me Windows was like death by 1000 papercuts. A shame, as I much prefer the Windows/PowerShell data model of communicating objects to text. I just wish MS would spend some time working on the overall dev experience outside of VS.
(I'm sure enough people will say desktop Linux has it's fair share of issues and I totally agree. Wireless drivers, Wayland still not quite there, battery usage, and much more. Which is why I'd be happy to pay for Windows if the dev experience was improved.)
And this is slightly off-topic but I have tried several times to fully embrace the Windows way, learnt PowerShell (ISE rocks), and even spent significant time building a startup using F# in VS and hosting it on Azure. In retrospect it was nice but there were just too many rough edges for me,
* Setting up a nice console environment means using a 3rd-party system like cmder/conemu + Cygwin/Msys/etc.
* Getting git working along with ssh-agent is still hit & miss
* Installing, for instance, Python packages that rely on C bindings requires extra trickery to set up,
* Chocolately isn't bad, but it is just downloading and running installers for you, it doesn't really have a dependency solver like yum or other Linux package managers do (NuGet does but don't think Chocolately uses those features). Plus it's more for packaged software than libraries/tools. OneGet may fix that in the future.
These are all surmoutable issues, for sure, but in the end it was just easier to move back to Linux. Not just for familiarity, but also convenience and ease - for me Windows was like death by 1000 papercuts. A shame, as I much prefer the Windows/PowerShell data model of communicating objects to text. I just wish MS would spend some time working on the overall dev experience outside of VS.
(I'm sure enough people will say desktop Linux has it's fair share of issues and I totally agree. Wireless drivers, Wayland still not quite there, battery usage, and much more. Which is why I'd be happy to pay for Windows if the dev experience was improved.)
Installing python packages that require C bindings on Windows is pretty straightforward, provided that:
- you have exact MSVC version, that was used to build your python (and yes, they are ancient, and no, you cannot purchase them anymore),
- it is possible at all to build the given package by the required MSVC version (see also: icu, boost, qt5 and the minimum MSVC version required),
- there are no dependencies on many additional libraries (i.e. building GDAL for Windows python is a real pain),
- the extension does not use some kind of home-brew build system that the author never tried to run on Windows (hello, py2cairo),
- you don't need some other compiler (scipy, I'm looking at you and your fortran).
But for simple extensions like psycopg2, it is a piece of cake. It is building packages, that are not native in Windows, but you have them in dependency chain, that are the problem.
- you have exact MSVC version, that was used to build your python (and yes, they are ancient, and no, you cannot purchase them anymore),
- it is possible at all to build the given package by the required MSVC version (see also: icu, boost, qt5 and the minimum MSVC version required),
- there are no dependencies on many additional libraries (i.e. building GDAL for Windows python is a real pain),
- the extension does not use some kind of home-brew build system that the author never tried to run on Windows (hello, py2cairo),
- you don't need some other compiler (scipy, I'm looking at you and your fortran).
But for simple extensions like psycopg2, it is a piece of cake. It is building packages, that are not native in Windows, but you have them in dependency chain, that are the problem.
As a comment on git setup. I've never once had a problem by using Github for windows, and then summarily completely ignoring the UI. It adds `git` to your PATH.
> Getting git working along with ssh-agent is still hit & miss
Git for Windows support ssh out of the box, any particular reason you want to use ssh-agent?
Same experience here. There are basic stuff that can't be approved by a junior tester. For example, when the operating system asks you to select an application by default but when you approve the action an error appears saying that you need to go the control panel...
>> Apart from the inferior development experience (outside of VS - which is top-notch), there are just too many bugs,
>> unfinished pieces and a general lack of polish. Updates wouldn't install, the Store kept crashing/disappearing,
>> Modern Apps would interact badly with virtual desktops.
>> Win 10 should never have been released in such a state.
Sounds like El Capitan.
>> unfinished pieces and a general lack of polish. Updates wouldn't install, the Store kept crashing/disappearing,
>> Modern Apps would interact badly with virtual desktops.
>> Win 10 should never have been released in such a state.
Sounds like El Capitan.
Are you sure your installation is OK?
In El Capitan, I've never had Store crash, not sure what would be equivalent to Modern apps, but the virtual desktops are ok-ish, etc.
The only thing that is really bugging me is non working IPSec/IKEv2.
In El Capitan, I've never had Store crash, not sure what would be equivalent to Modern apps, but the virtual desktops are ok-ish, etc.
The only thing that is really bugging me is non working IPSec/IKEv2.
And that doesn't even scratch the Surface of the issues related to privacy that Windows 10 kicks up...
Are you running Fedora on your Surface?
No, on a small 11in netbook. I needed a mobile dev environment, and it was either a Surface that could double as a tablet and run Linux VMs, or a netbook running Linux.
You can run Linux natively on the Surface, SecureBoot isn't a problem, but the bigger issues are drivers and a touch-unfriendly UI.
(I went with an Acer Aspire E11 - $150, 8hr battery, and fanless - it may be the best Linux netbook every made!)
You can run Linux natively on the Surface, SecureBoot isn't a problem, but the bigger issues are drivers and a touch-unfriendly UI.
(I went with an Acer Aspire E11 - $150, 8hr battery, and fanless - it may be the best Linux netbook every made!)
> Updates wouldn't install, the Store kept crashing/disappearing, Modern Apps would interact badly with virtual desktops.
Sounds like a hardware issue. Cannot reproduce. Are you running the mainline release or did you opt in to the experimental builds?
Sounds like a hardware issue. Cannot reproduce. Are you running the mainline release or did you opt in to the experimental builds?
Mainline release on a modern Dell/Intel laptop with all drivers installed. Same laptop runs Linux fine so unlikely hardware issue.
Updates would crap out with random errors like 80074005 - which a casual user should never see. I got it working again by stopping the update services from the console (net stop ...), deleting the cache and re-running.
The store would be running, then you'd Alt-Tab out and back again and it would be gone. Same happened with other Universal apps, OneNote in particular.
It certainly got more reliable over time, and I have tried the insider builds on a spare laptop and they're better - but the initial 10240 release was sub-par.
Updates would crap out with random errors like 80074005 - which a casual user should never see. I got it working again by stopping the update services from the console (net stop ...), deleting the cache and re-running.
The store would be running, then you'd Alt-Tab out and back again and it would be gone. Same happened with other Universal apps, OneNote in particular.
It certainly got more reliable over time, and I have tried the insider builds on a spare laptop and they're better - but the initial 10240 release was sub-par.
>>Same laptop runs Linux fine so unlikely hardware issue.
That literally means nothing. You can have CPUs which run Prime95 for days without fail and then die after running a proper memtest.
That literally means nothing. You can have CPUs which run Prime95 for days without fail and then die after running a proper memtest.
Perhaps, but I'd suspect that would manifest itself with a BSOD/kernel panic rather than the same user-level applications breaking in a reproducible manner without affecting the rest of the OS.
Anecdotally, I've used every Windows release since 3.1 and Windows 10 is pretty much on par with Windows 7/8. I don't have updates that fail, I don't have store apps crash (not that I use them) and generally think the polish is on par with most Windows releases over the years - which is to say, it's .. meh. I didn't even have a problem with Windows 8, because like most professionals, I don't live in the start menu, don't use touch apps and generally use Windows to just get shit done which means most of my time is spent within the application (which is what an OS should do right?)
I do think that if I switched to Linux for "a few weeks" I'd have the exact same reaction as a Linux user switching to Windows. In fact, this is how I've used Linux for the last 15 years and pretty much every experience since 2000 has been just that "it's nice but lacking polish".
Everyone has their own favorite flavor of OS, Windows 10 is no better or worse than previous releases.
I do think that if I switched to Linux for "a few weeks" I'd have the exact same reaction as a Linux user switching to Windows. In fact, this is how I've used Linux for the last 15 years and pretty much every experience since 2000 has been just that "it's nice but lacking polish".
Everyone has their own favorite flavor of OS, Windows 10 is no better or worse than previous releases.
I think it has 100% to do with what is your purpose.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE my OpenSUSE desktops. I have a tiled window manager with means zero menus. Everything is shortcut keys (The way I use Windows 8). Windows PowerShell and CMD are catching up SLOWLY but I love my rxvt-unicode terminal. I love using Ranger (Comand line file manager) and VIM works perfectly.
People need to stop seeing Fedora as anything but a test bed for Red Hat and use another distro. Fedora is always unpolished and has a ton of hiccups. (My own biased opinion)
Windows at work stinks (I use 2 desktop computers that are Linux) one laptop Windows 7 and one desktop Windows 8. I have issues with updates on both windows machines and they are a PAIN to fix. It gets permissions wrong all the time and I can actually be locked out of removing icons from my desktops let alone the horrible exchange server. So I got permission to use Linux since I get things done much fast on it. Also the email gets blocked due to spam from all the stupid stuff my co-workers do.
My personal computer at home has not been able to upgrade to Windows 8.1 and my 8.0 won't install more updates. (Wife HATES Tiled Window Managers and hates when she has to switch between Windows 7 or Windows 8 or KDE). My memory gets used up all the time and I can't htop in command line and kill apps. I have to three finger salute and wait for the graphical interface to kick in. Hangs and is sluggish at random times. Still prefer Windows to OS X just for sane OS grammar sake.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE my OpenSUSE desktops. I have a tiled window manager with means zero menus. Everything is shortcut keys (The way I use Windows 8). Windows PowerShell and CMD are catching up SLOWLY but I love my rxvt-unicode terminal. I love using Ranger (Comand line file manager) and VIM works perfectly.
People need to stop seeing Fedora as anything but a test bed for Red Hat and use another distro. Fedora is always unpolished and has a ton of hiccups. (My own biased opinion)
Windows at work stinks (I use 2 desktop computers that are Linux) one laptop Windows 7 and one desktop Windows 8. I have issues with updates on both windows machines and they are a PAIN to fix. It gets permissions wrong all the time and I can actually be locked out of removing icons from my desktops let alone the horrible exchange server. So I got permission to use Linux since I get things done much fast on it. Also the email gets blocked due to spam from all the stupid stuff my co-workers do.
My personal computer at home has not been able to upgrade to Windows 8.1 and my 8.0 won't install more updates. (Wife HATES Tiled Window Managers and hates when she has to switch between Windows 7 or Windows 8 or KDE). My memory gets used up all the time and I can't htop in command line and kill apps. I have to three finger salute and wait for the graphical interface to kick in. Hangs and is sluggish at random times. Still prefer Windows to OS X just for sane OS grammar sake.
Actually, out of the box, the last few Fedora releases (22, 23) are way more polished than RHEL 7.
It does not change the fact that they are testbeds, but the Gnome 3 did really wonders.
It does not change the fact that they are testbeds, but the Gnome 3 did really wonders.
Might just give a VM a test. I still can't find a better balanced distro for Linux in terms of stability and packages. Zypper package manager is best in class and the build.opensuse.org is lightyears ahead of ppa.
That's absolutely true. I've gone back and forth between Linux and Windows over the past 10 years or so - using Linux at work and Windows for casual/office/music production. I used Windows 8.1 for my last job and it was a nice experience overall.
Although the latest Fedora 23 is perhaps the most polished version yet ;)
Although the latest Fedora 23 is perhaps the most polished version yet ;)
Though its funny-at least in the Bay Area (I know I know, we're in our own little world here, etc) Windows has a very minimal mindshare amongst devs (except for having to use it for work).
I use pretty much all 3 main platforms as daily dev enviroment. Mint for work, Windows for hobby and OSX for when I work outside my house. And I find that they are all pretty equal as dev experience(outside of VS, which I avoid because it locks me too much on windows). What would you classify as a better dev experience on Fedora than on windows? I think it might come down to just being used to it or personal preference. They all have strong/weak points but mostly I can get a productive experience on all of them.
Cannot speak for OP, but the thing, that makes Fedora better developer experience than Windows is dnf (yum) and especially -devel packages.
Windows or MSVC does not really have a standardized way how to cope with third-party SDKs. It is basically unzip the libs and includes somewhere and configure that path that in your project (good luck making other people build your solution). It kind of works with shallow dependencies, but not when your dependencies form a nice graph.
In Fedora, these things work out of the box and you don't have to waste your time.
Windows or MSVC does not really have a standardized way how to cope with third-party SDKs. It is basically unzip the libs and includes somewhere and configure that path that in your project (good luck making other people build your solution). It kind of works with shallow dependencies, but not when your dependencies form a nice graph.
In Fedora, these things work out of the box and you don't have to waste your time.
Absolutely. Being able to install a -devel package and just get on with things is incredibly important.
"Since this is a device from Microsoft, you get zero bloatware installed."
A very strong selling point for the Surface family, in my opinion.
A very strong selling point for the Surface family, in my opinion.
I must say that iOS 9 feels a bit like that. There is a constant nagging for using apple services. And every update to the iOS resets everything. iOS will want me to use icloud, I refuse, are you sure you really don't want to use icloud, yes I just told you! But you certainly want to use apple pay. No. Really? Yes. But let's set up apple music. Don't want that either. Are you sure, etc etc.
In fact the music player regularly redirects to the apple music tab while I just want to listen to my own playlist.
It feels really really cheap.
In fact the music player regularly redirects to the apple music tab while I just want to listen to my own playlist.
It feels really really cheap.
Pro tip: you should always buy Windows laptops, etc. directly from the Microsoft store. Their signature branding for many other manufacturers's products means that they sell for about the same price, but with no crapware.
Amen. I bought four of the new Dell XPS 13s for work. The three from the MS Store are fantastic; the one from Dell took several hours just to make it useable.
I feel like there should be a case study in every MBA program in the country using Microsoft as an example of what happens when you let a partner control the 'last mile' of your user experience - and consequently, your brand.
For years the Windows experience was completely ruined by hardware manufacturers pre-loading laptops with a ton of very poorly developed software. It's a night and day difference.
For years the Windows experience was completely ruined by hardware manufacturers pre-loading laptops with a ton of very poorly developed software. It's a night and day difference.
They did not willfully let their partners control the last mile. They demanded this right in their original OEM agreements, and used it to define the out of box experience for Windows 3.1 and Windows 95. Circa 1999, the Department of Justice took it away from them as a result of an antitrust litigation settlement.
There's also Android and what the cell carriers are doing it with regards to bloatware and security updates to use as another source of material.
good point - they are facing a similar problem.
in some ways, android has it worse, because they have to deal with hardware vendors and carriers
in some ways, android has it worse, because they have to deal with hardware vendors and carriers
Then there is something like this too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8546702
Unless of course Windows' update completely bricks your laptop.
I bought a family member an Asus laptop from the Windows Store that was running 8.1, and the Windows 10 update has destroyed it. Asus refuses to look at it, calling it a "software issue". So now I'm in the process of trying to get Microsoft to look at it, and waiting to see whether they will take responsibility or shove it off to someone else.
I bought a family member an Asus laptop from the Windows Store that was running 8.1, and the Windows 10 update has destroyed it. Asus refuses to look at it, calling it a "software issue". So now I'm in the process of trying to get Microsoft to look at it, and waiting to see whether they will take responsibility or shove it off to someone else.
Take it to one of their retail stores, if you/they live close to one. They should be able to help.
Good tip, except for when you want to be able to customize your laptop. You can't customize say a Dell laptop in Microsoft Store.
[deleted]
Oh man, tell me about it. My SO just bought a new Lenovo laptop. We spent the entire first evening with it running Windows updates. And the entire second evening removing all the garbage that comes installed with it. Finally it's day 3 and ready to be used.
dont worry, Lenovo uses bios hooks to reinstall said garbage
[citation needed]
Or are you just talking about doing a factory restore on system which brings back everything to it's original state?
Or are you just talking about doing a factory restore on system which brings back everything to it's original state?
No, but theoretically, the way they did it, they could install whatever they wanted.
Source: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/lenovo...
Source: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/lenovo...
i was a 100% windows user for a long time, even had a Windows phone in the blackberry era. Decided to switch to Apple after using iPhone 4 and original iPad. Bought Macbook 4 years ago and with an SSD and RAM upgrade its still great.
Gave microsoft a second chance with the flagship Lumia Windows Phone 7, and Surface RT, because I was primarily a windows dev. Needless to say, I was burned on both of those devices (buggy, very poor and limited apps, and microsoft basically gave up on both platforms within 2 years). I've since purchased an iMac, two more iPhones, and a new iPad
Looking at some of the early problems with the Surface Book, I'm worried microsoft is going to drive more users away.
Gave microsoft a second chance with the flagship Lumia Windows Phone 7, and Surface RT, because I was primarily a windows dev. Needless to say, I was burned on both of those devices (buggy, very poor and limited apps, and microsoft basically gave up on both platforms within 2 years). I've since purchased an iMac, two more iPhones, and a new iPad
Looking at some of the early problems with the Surface Book, I'm worried microsoft is going to drive more users away.
I'm a converted Mac user as well, but I cannot see the Book (which is a first generation product, and an impressive one as that), Surface and Windows 10 as anything else as steps in the right direction for Microsoft, and for consumers in general.
Apple really needs an heavyweight competitor that can challenge them in terms of design and innovation, otherwise they will get complacent (IMHO they already are, to an extent).
Apple really needs an heavyweight competitor that can challenge them in terms of design and innovation, otherwise they will get complacent (IMHO they already are, to an extent).
Hadn't thought of it like that... Where Apple used to have their CEO 'drive' innovation - New Microsoft are replacing that motivation driver.
My wife has the Lumia WP8 and the Surface Pro 3, which she's quite happy with. I agree that Surface RT is an unnecessary travesty of a concept though.
Microsoft really need to pick a differentiator and advertise on that basis. Maybe two for the consumer/enterprise markets. For years the unofficial slogan was "Microsoft: because you have to use Word" or "because it's the only open games platform". Both have been badly eroded in the past decade.
Microsoft really need to pick a differentiator and advertise on that basis. Maybe two for the consumer/enterprise markets. For years the unofficial slogan was "Microsoft: because you have to use Word" or "because it's the only open games platform". Both have been badly eroded in the past decade.
I think it's worth remembering that MSFT should consider itself lucky, that it has customers to drive away.
The pro 1 came out only a just few short years ago, and they wrote down a lot of that product.
It's really weird to say this about the guys who once were called the Borg, but I have faith in their design team.
Sadly they seem to be creating an expectation that one should wait for the 3rd device in a series.
The pro 1 came out only a just few short years ago, and they wrote down a lot of that product.
It's really weird to say this about the guys who once were called the Borg, but I have faith in their design team.
Sadly they seem to be creating an expectation that one should wait for the 3rd device in a series.
Perfect is the enemy of done
From a business perspective - the end result is the same. Whether you wait for Steve to stop barking say 'ship it'. Or you ship when it's 'good enough. Apple knew where the hockey puck was heading as early as the mid 90's [1] and could probably have shipped something better than the Newton but before the iPhone. They were touch and go there for a while.
Microsoft can afford to ship first and ask questions later. The end result in terms of getting the product right within a given timeframe is the same.
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPS1DMlzz0M
From a business perspective - the end result is the same. Whether you wait for Steve to stop barking say 'ship it'. Or you ship when it's 'good enough. Apple knew where the hockey puck was heading as early as the mid 90's [1] and could probably have shipped something better than the Newton but before the iPhone. They were touch and go there for a while.
Microsoft can afford to ship first and ask questions later. The end result in terms of getting the product right within a given timeframe is the same.
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPS1DMlzz0M
"Wait for version 3" has been the conventional wisdom about Microsoft products for decades now. (Example: Windows didn't really take off until Windows 3.1.)
Their modus operandi has always been to throw stuff out there, and then if it seems to be finding a market iterate on it until it doesn't suck anymore. So in that respect Surface is just continuing the grand tradition.
Their modus operandi has always been to throw stuff out there, and then if it seems to be finding a market iterate on it until it doesn't suck anymore. So in that respect Surface is just continuing the grand tradition.
Upto 15 hours of battery life for light usage? Now that's impressive! I wonder how the i5 compares to the latest MacBook Air.
Why compare it with the Air though, when the latter has an abysmal display for 2015/16.
Is it though? I get that from my base model MacBook (2015).
Isn't this device immensely more powerful than that? You're comparing a Core M to i series, integrated weak GPU to powerful dedicated GPU, Surface Book has a larger higher resolution display - to be comparable seems incredible. Admittedly Surface Book has a lot more space/weight for battery so it's not really a fair comparison either way you look at it.
I'd be amazed if I could get my rMBP (2015) to pull 15 hours though which seems like a fair comparison on most fronts, so I'm definitely impressed.
I'd be amazed if I could get my rMBP (2015) to pull 15 hours though which seems like a fair comparison on most fronts, so I'm definitely impressed.
On Ars's reviews, the i5 Surface Book got 749 minutes in the light wifi browsing test, and the 2015 rMBP 13" got 794 minutes.
Thanks for pointing this out, my relative comparison is obviously off. I stand by the comment that the rMBP is the right comparison but presumably the 2015 Macbook would do even better in that test.
> Isn't this device immensely more powerful than that?
But it's also only claiming that battery life for "light usage", and so I suppose it depends on what that means.
But it's also only claiming that battery life for "light usage", and so I suppose it depends on what that means.
You get 15 hours when Apple only claims 9 hours of battery life?
Oh, absolutely. Use Safari, never use chrome. And don't play games. If you watch video, only watch h.264. I've often gotten 2 full days of work without plugging it in.
How does one force the computer to watch video in h.264 please?
Apple's claimed battery life is based on a workload heavier than just refreshing a web page every 30 seconds. My rMBP 15" is rated for 9 hours, but I usually get over 10 doing a mix of Office and Safari browsing.
That's a refreshing change from every other manufacturer. Microsoft definitely has not taken this route. The SP4s 9-Hr battery life has been overstated by many accounts(including my own)
tl;dr "The hardware and build quality is very good. Performance is fantastic. Software on the Surface Book is a let down.
The first firmware update fixed a lot, but there are still too many outstanding issues to recommend the Surface Book at this time."
I got to play with one in best buy the other day. The hardware is pretty damn good. It is a lot thinner than I expected. It isn't too bad to hold as a stand-alone tablet either. I was having issues with ejecting the tablet from the base though. It felt like I was trying to break the thing. The keyboard and trackpad seem fine and very macbook-like. This seems to be a very good machine for a Windows user (I'm not the target demo). My son wondered about its gaming capabilities lol.
So basically it has the same issues with Windows 10 as a 300$ laptop.
People who pony up that kind of money for same software experience are brave in my view.
People who pony up that kind of money for same software experience are brave in my view.
While I am indeed disappointed by the technical issues being reported for the new MSFT devices, I still applaud them for some outstanding engineering. I am considering the Book or Surface Pro 4 as a desktop replacement. But frankly I don't consider it a good value. I'll stick with my 5 year old desktop, which gets a respectable 7.3 experience index.
What I REALLY would like is a Windows 10 tablet in the 9"-10" range and in the $400 range. Perhaps there'll be a Black Friday sale on the Surface Pro 3.
Cheap windows tablets are a thing: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00YCX7SEW/ - of course every concievable corner has been cut, so it's an atom with little storage.
My favourite which I'm tempted to actually buy is http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00O636WJU , which costs ~£60 and comes with a year of Office 365 + terabyte cloud storage which also normally costs £60.
My favourite which I'm tempted to actually buy is http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00O636WJU , which costs ~£60 and comes with a year of Office 365 + terabyte cloud storage which also normally costs £60.
Boom.
http://www.fudzilla.com/reviews/39204-cube-i7-stylus-tablet-...
http://www.gearbest.com/tablet-pcs/pp_227132.html
Can you install linux or is the bios locked down?
The Surface 3 will be $399 on Black Friday at Best Buy.
A laptop that doesn't have great trackpad interface is a non-starter. Really looking forward to trying out the Microsoft laptop in person. But still using my 2010 macbook pro and smooth-as-glass scrolling is a minimum bar.
From the article:
"The other half of the typical notebook interaction is done with the trackpad, and here Microsoft has delivered one of the best trackpads on any Windows PC."
"With that one quirk aside, anyone who uses a Surface Book is likely going to be very happy with the trackpad experience."
"The surface is glass, which makes it very smooth and easy to glide your finger over."
"The other half of the typical notebook interaction is done with the trackpad, and here Microsoft has delivered one of the best trackpads on any Windows PC."
"With that one quirk aside, anyone who uses a Surface Book is likely going to be very happy with the trackpad experience."
"The surface is glass, which makes it very smooth and easy to glide your finger over."
The scrolling in Chrome is a major concern for me though. After using Apple trackpads it is downright painful to use Windows hardware and scrolling. Microsoft needs to nail these software issues in order to compete, because in terms of hardware, they're vastly superior to Apple right now. I hope they don't squander that advantage.
Scrolling between browsers always seems like an issue for me, even with a mouse. I'll configure Firefox, and then Chrome/IE/Safari will be too fast or not fast enough.
I know this is nitpicking and borderline off topic, but does the white balance on those photos look so far off that it's distracting to anyone else?
I got a Surface Book on launch day (one of the i7s with an nvidia GPU). A rough summary:
Good:
* The build quality is stellar.
* Having the CPU in the screen means the keyboard never gets uncomfortably hot, even when running games. Very comfortable.
* Pretty fast CPU.
* The SSD is obscenely fast, I can get more than 1gb/s on sequential reads. Wish I got that kind of performance in my desktop.
* All the custom hardware integration (the latch, rotation, tablet mode, etc) is pretty robust.
* Good touchpad and pretty decent keyboard.
* Great battery life. When I'm reading ebooks or news I can easily get 5hrs out of the tablet; the laptop mode lasts way longer than that. The numbers in the Anandtech review are pretty representative. Playing Armello on the tablet gets a few hours battery life; I'd probably get 5+ using Steam In-home Streaming.
* When the fan is running (high cpu load, etc) it's very, very quiet. This is the quietest laptop I've ever owned.
* The external port dock is pretty convenient.
* The charging connector is magsafe-style and it's already saved me from a couple nasty incidents.
* You can charge the tablet by itself if you want to.
* The pen and digitizer are great. I have a pretty reasonable time doing web browsing, email and IM on the tablet using the pen to write. The quality of the pressure sensitivity and precision tracking on the pen is pretty good.
* The iGPU is actually (though still only somewhat) up to the challenge of driving the panel at full DPI. Past high-DPI laptops I've owned had Intel GPUs that were clearly not up to the task of compositing the whole screen at 60hz while rendering webpages.
* Considering the problems I've had with the device, Microsoft customer support has been helpful and responsive.
Bad:
* In general the Surface Book and its accessories are just too expensive.
* Intel's video drivers are a goddamn trainwreck. It's an embarrassment. I've had more BSODs (all in the Intel drivers) and TDRs (at least a dozen video driver resets) in the couple weeks I've owned this thing than I've had all year on my desktop. When you're using the NVIDIA GPU in the keyboard things are pretty solid, except that Intel's surface sharing implementation is also totally hosed so vsync doesn't work right. :(
* The WiFi drivers (and probably some other device - I haven't figured out how to profile windows user-mode drivers) are really terrible, they burn a ridiculous amount of CPU and cause latency spikes that make audio hitch. The ethernet in the port dock is fine, at least.
* The cable on the port dock is too short and it's actually quite inconvenient.
* The keyboard/tablet latch requires ever so slightly too much force to remove - It's pretty hard to do one-handed without lifting the whole device. (Very easy with two hands, though.)
* The Fn-lock setup on the keyboard is an annoyance (but not remotely as bad as past Microsoft keyboards with this design)
* Microsoft hosed palm detection for pen input in Win10 and it's a real annoyance. It's not as good as it was in 8.
* The touchpad drivers don't have adjustments for things like palm detection.
* The weight balance between keyboard/tablet is ever so slightly off, such that if you fully extend the screen it tilts backward a little. Not a problem when typing, but it makes me nervous :-)
Good:
* The build quality is stellar.
* Having the CPU in the screen means the keyboard never gets uncomfortably hot, even when running games. Very comfortable.
* Pretty fast CPU.
* The SSD is obscenely fast, I can get more than 1gb/s on sequential reads. Wish I got that kind of performance in my desktop.
* All the custom hardware integration (the latch, rotation, tablet mode, etc) is pretty robust.
* Good touchpad and pretty decent keyboard.
* Great battery life. When I'm reading ebooks or news I can easily get 5hrs out of the tablet; the laptop mode lasts way longer than that. The numbers in the Anandtech review are pretty representative. Playing Armello on the tablet gets a few hours battery life; I'd probably get 5+ using Steam In-home Streaming.
* When the fan is running (high cpu load, etc) it's very, very quiet. This is the quietest laptop I've ever owned.
* The external port dock is pretty convenient.
* The charging connector is magsafe-style and it's already saved me from a couple nasty incidents.
* You can charge the tablet by itself if you want to.
* The pen and digitizer are great. I have a pretty reasonable time doing web browsing, email and IM on the tablet using the pen to write. The quality of the pressure sensitivity and precision tracking on the pen is pretty good.
* The iGPU is actually (though still only somewhat) up to the challenge of driving the panel at full DPI. Past high-DPI laptops I've owned had Intel GPUs that were clearly not up to the task of compositing the whole screen at 60hz while rendering webpages.
* Considering the problems I've had with the device, Microsoft customer support has been helpful and responsive.
Bad:
* In general the Surface Book and its accessories are just too expensive.
* Intel's video drivers are a goddamn trainwreck. It's an embarrassment. I've had more BSODs (all in the Intel drivers) and TDRs (at least a dozen video driver resets) in the couple weeks I've owned this thing than I've had all year on my desktop. When you're using the NVIDIA GPU in the keyboard things are pretty solid, except that Intel's surface sharing implementation is also totally hosed so vsync doesn't work right. :(
* The WiFi drivers (and probably some other device - I haven't figured out how to profile windows user-mode drivers) are really terrible, they burn a ridiculous amount of CPU and cause latency spikes that make audio hitch. The ethernet in the port dock is fine, at least.
* The cable on the port dock is too short and it's actually quite inconvenient.
* The keyboard/tablet latch requires ever so slightly too much force to remove - It's pretty hard to do one-handed without lifting the whole device. (Very easy with two hands, though.)
* The Fn-lock setup on the keyboard is an annoyance (but not remotely as bad as past Microsoft keyboards with this design)
* Microsoft hosed palm detection for pen input in Win10 and it's a real annoyance. It's not as good as it was in 8.
* The touchpad drivers don't have adjustments for things like palm detection.
* The weight balance between keyboard/tablet is ever so slightly off, such that if you fully extend the screen it tilts backward a little. Not a problem when typing, but it makes me nervous :-)
I have a Dell laptop, and the Intel/NVidia driver combo has been the buggiest part of the whole thing. Really irritating.
Same for my Asus laptop. Makes me wish for just one card. I know, I can always disable one of them...
Same on my Asus. The problem is that forcing the nVidia GPU means hotter/more fan/faster battery drain while forcing Intel means...it uses the buggy Intel drivers.
I'm not complaining too much if only because when I bought it, a 17" i7/16GB/nVidia/1920x1080 laptop for under a grand was a great deal of power for the cost (and it's only a backup machine for occasional use at events) but man...it's the one thing that's been a pain since I got the thing. Additionally I was bummed to learn that even with the dGPU forced on, it doesn't play well with my Oculus dev unit but I didn't know the requirements when I bought the notebook so that's just hindsight. Usually I just force the dGPU and leave it plugged in whenever humanly possible.
I'm not complaining too much if only because when I bought it, a 17" i7/16GB/nVidia/1920x1080 laptop for under a grand was a great deal of power for the cost (and it's only a backup machine for occasional use at events) but man...it's the one thing that's been a pain since I got the thing. Additionally I was bummed to learn that even with the dGPU forced on, it doesn't play well with my Oculus dev unit but I didn't know the requirements when I bought the notebook so that's just hindsight. Usually I just force the dGPU and leave it plugged in whenever humanly possible.
The function lock is actually "smart" even though they don't document it properly, it is actually a toggle and hotkey in one.
Whenever you hold the function key and hit another key while holding function, then release function it will stay in the mode you started in.
Whenever you hold the function key and hit another key while holding function, then release function it will stay in the mode you started in.
I discovered the 'toggle' property recently and that's a real improvement to it, which is why I find it less problematic than every other implementation of Fn keys. Still would rather have a full set of keys, though.
> * You can charge the tablet by itself if you want to.
What you mean by that?
What you mean by that?
There's a surface connector on the tablet, just like on the base. So if you've been using the tablet you can plug it in to the charger directly and keep using it. (Not sure I'd ever do this...)
I assume he/she means you can charge the tablet without it being attached to the keyboard.
I've been drooling over getting one of these but the cost kind of keeps me away. However, I think I am going to try and track down a Surface 3 which is hopefully a bit cheaper now with the 4/Book out.
Since Microsoft is clearly aiming at this to be a Macbook killer, it would be nice if the performance comparisons included the various Macbook models.
"It’s not light, especially if you consider 3.34-3.48 lbs (1.51-1.58kg) heavy." Interesting tautology.
In tablet mode, the Surface Book is thin and light, and the new Pen is quite responsive.
I just love how Intel sells dual core as an "i7".
Why not just make it a laptop for significantly less? The tablet thing is mostly a gimmick.
One person's gimmick is another person's killer feature. Say what you will about the usefulness of the convertible nature of the Surface Book, but it is thoroughly and competently engineered (unlike some other entries in this space). And if people find a competent convertible to be useful, they'll buy it.
It makes a great ebook/email/news reader and that's one of the reasons I like the tablet. I can also use it to do steam in-home streaming or watch a movie.
On the other hand, I'm not the sort of person who would buy a dedicated tablet otherwise. I can't stand owning a bunch of devices.
On the other hand, I'm not the sort of person who would buy a dedicated tablet otherwise. I can't stand owning a bunch of devices.
Not to mention that there are already laptops. As Apple and other manufacturers have shown, it's often smarter to address market segments that aren't being adequately addressed rather than jumping into a crowded one.
I see that as gimmick too. I have a surface pro 3 and barely use it as a tablet.
As a superlight-no compromise-unlimited budget laptop there was sony's z series, which I really miss. It had everything, including an RJ45 port, 4 cores i7, two SSDd in RAID and was significantly lighter than this thing (just over 1kg). The only thing it didn't have is good speakers.
As a superlight-no compromise-unlimited budget laptop there was sony's z series, which I really miss. It had everything, including an RJ45 port, 4 cores i7, two SSDd in RAID and was significantly lighter than this thing (just over 1kg). The only thing it didn't have is good speakers.
It depends what you're comparing it to.
I enjoyed using the iPad as a tablet for watching videos or casual web browsing (typing in URLs or searches on an onscreen keyboard is OK), but found the keyboards available to be utter crap.
The Surface works great as a tablet and the keyboard is great on flat surfaces -- I can use it on a train or plane with fold-town tables, no problem. But if I am lying on the couch and try to type on the keyboard, my belly is too jiggly and does not provide an adequate surface. I am hopeful that (once the software bugs are ironed out) the Surface Book will work in that use case, while still being tiny and tablet-like.
Could I just use a laptop sometimes and a tablet sometimes? Sure, but then I'd have to have two devices I carry around instead of one.
I enjoyed using the iPad as a tablet for watching videos or casual web browsing (typing in URLs or searches on an onscreen keyboard is OK), but found the keyboards available to be utter crap.
The Surface works great as a tablet and the keyboard is great on flat surfaces -- I can use it on a train or plane with fold-town tables, no problem. But if I am lying on the couch and try to type on the keyboard, my belly is too jiggly and does not provide an adequate surface. I am hopeful that (once the software bugs are ironed out) the Surface Book will work in that use case, while still being tiny and tablet-like.
Could I just use a laptop sometimes and a tablet sometimes? Sure, but then I'd have to have two devices I carry around instead of one.
It is without the pen and OneNote. Now it is a legitimate feature that people legitimately buy a Surface to have.
I see people in meetings sitting there and jotting away in OneNote all the time. It is very useful when you project one and then use OneNote as a "whiteboard" of sorts.
I see people in meetings sitting there and jotting away in OneNote all the time. It is very useful when you project one and then use OneNote as a "whiteboard" of sorts.
If I pay a gorgeous screen, I want that screen CLOSE to me, so I can benefit from it as much as possible. I'm not sure how I feel about a notebook that advertises "Look at our awesome hinge that moves the screen as far from you as possible!"
Are you really complaining about the screen being set back by 1"?
I actually think most laptops have the screen weirdly far away from the user- The only recent laptop that I really like for this reason is the Aspire Switch 12, which is an absolutely superb laptop:
http://us.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/series/aspireswitch12
http://us.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/series/aspireswitch12
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I checked it out at the MS store and it's fine. It doesn't have the aesthetic design perfection of a macbook and the hinge is awkward, but if you want a windows machine it seems like a good option.
I won't buy any MS devices though because they are incredibly buggy (in my experience). I have a surface and it has so many irritating bugs (mostly related to power management) that I hate it now. Many of the surfaces in the MS store were unusable due to various bugs. I know people bang on them hard in the store, but I never ran into a macbook in an apple store that didn't work as expected.
I won't buy any MS devices though because they are incredibly buggy (in my experience). I have a surface and it has so many irritating bugs (mostly related to power management) that I hate it now. Many of the surfaces in the MS store were unusable due to various bugs. I know people bang on them hard in the store, but I never ran into a macbook in an apple store that didn't work as expected.
I just gave Windows 10 another try with a view to purchasing a Surface 4 if successful (OneNote + Stylus = :)) - but after a few weeks reverted back to Linux (Fedora).
Apart from the inferior development experience (outside of VS - which is top-notch), there are just too many bugs, unfinished pieces and a general lack of polish. Updates wouldn't install, the Store kept crashing/disappearing, Modern Apps would interact badly with virtual desktops.
Win 10 should never have been released in such a state. I'm hoping the Threshold release out this week will go some ways to repairing the damage and presume will be a better fit for the Surface Book.
Maybe I'll look at the Surface line again in a few months.