Homejoy back as Homeaglow(homeaglow.com)
homeaglow.com
Homejoy back as Homeaglow
http://Www.homeaglow.com
51 comments
That left a seriously bad taste in my mouth at the time; not sure I'd ever want to pay for services from that founder.
At best, it was neutral-meaning and _awfully_-executed.
At best, it was neutral-meaning and _awfully_-executed.
Wow, what a glorious trainwreck of a thread.
That founder seems so tenaciously determined to promote his new iteration of the same old failed startup but keeps getting called out over and over again on his shadiness.
That founder seems so tenaciously determined to promote his new iteration of the same old failed startup but keeps getting called out over and over again on his shadiness.
This is just some feedback on the availability form--
It's uncomfortable to have to give you my email on it, and it becomes irritating to only be told there are no service providers in my area. I'm not sure why you're collecting it there, care to illuminate that for me? Or at least reassure me I won't be spammed?
I'm genuinely interested in your service for a multitude of reasons... So please, see this as an attempt at constructive feedback/questioning.
Also, the form doesn't remember your choice for flexibility. It'd be a nicer experience if it did.
It's uncomfortable to have to give you my email on it, and it becomes irritating to only be told there are no service providers in my area. I'm not sure why you're collecting it there, care to illuminate that for me? Or at least reassure me I won't be spammed?
I'm genuinely interested in your service for a multitude of reasons... So please, see this as an attempt at constructive feedback/questioning.
Also, the form doesn't remember your choice for flexibility. It'd be a nicer experience if it did.
I thought the same thing; they probably collect the email to notify you once they actually do have cleaners available. However, a much more frictionless approach would be to only ask for an email after the search, like "Would you like us to notify you once cleaners are available in your area?" That's more genuine.
I don't have any affiliation with the site but this is something that messes with me as a dev because I hate spam.
You have expressed interest in the service. Maybe they don't serve your area, or maybe you aren't ready to use the service this month or next month but might 6 months from now. So how does this service get your business, a business that in theory you want?
Is the business supposed to simply wait for you to re-find it when you need it, or continue to come back and search again for when it's available in your area?
Isn't the whole point of LEAN and MVP to do this process so you know where demand is coming from?
You have expressed interest in the service. Maybe they don't serve your area, or maybe you aren't ready to use the service this month or next month but might 6 months from now. So how does this service get your business, a business that in theory you want?
Is the business supposed to simply wait for you to re-find it when you need it, or continue to come back and search again for when it's available in your area?
Isn't the whole point of LEAN and MVP to do this process so you know where demand is coming from?
Couldn't they tell you first if service is available, then ask if you'd like to sign up for it or get a notification if it becomes available? That would be effective without feeling deceptive.
I'm wondering how they fixed the problem with cleaners that take the client away and get paid directly instead of going through Homejoy platform. It's similar to Upwork I guess, where the same possibility exists, but still works. Focusing on the cleaner profile is interesting as the cleaner will only get more number of jobs done when they're realized through the platform. I don't have the details about this change from Homejoy to Homeaglow, but I would like to know :) At least the Business Insider's article didn't mention or I didn't get it.
Yes, this is an interesting question. Watching PathJoy become HomeJoy and then close, I assumed (wrongly I guess) that they had moved from the match making concept into an actual cleaning company that owned the whole process. This BTW is how traditional companies keep employees from stealing clients. The employment has greater value than the single client. At any rate, it's more obvious in this latest iteration that they think there is a platform play here.
So, is this Fly Maids, as previously discussed here[1]? I'm very confused.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10466888
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10466888
So after their last business failed, they shut it down, exported all the data out of it, started a new business, imported all the data, and are now operating sans all the original investors?
I believe I read they bought the data.
I said this above, but they are an information arbitrage company trading information that isn't valuable. How much value can you extract from a market for connecting people who need their homes cleaned with cleaners? Like not a lot.
They have the data from the review system, as at URL [1]. They can [they hope] create value by providing a reputation service that serves the interests of both customers and cleaners by allowing them to screen each other. They're not handling the actual transaction the way that AirBnB does, however, so I'm not sure what the specifics of the business model are.
[1] https://www.homeaglow.com/crystalb
[1] https://www.homeaglow.com/crystalb
'Arbitrage' The simultaneous purchase and sale of an asset in order to profit from a difference in the price[0].
They take information that they purchased from their previous company, and also collect information presumably, and sell it. Their profit is based on the difference in that informations value to a different buyer.
A service worker submits background info, how much they are willing to work for, logistics of what they'll do and other info. This is free for homejoy because that person wants to work and this will let them do that.
They take that information and sell it to a buyer. The buyer pays:
cost = [workers specified rate] + [ informations value]
So homejoys profit is presumably something like the value of that information - opex as they likely have no assets.
I am not saying there is anything wrong or unethical about this, just that there are no barriers to entry, high competition and high ability to substitute this for many things. This is sort of like the yelp model, except that yelp, despite some of the hits to its reputation, has a massive data set that is relatively complete and very difficult to replicate now in magnitude and completeness, it is also more broadly useful. While eating out is, to some extent, a luxury, people do need food. So more people, I would baselessly assert, eat out in some capacity on the monthly basis than have their home professionally cleaned.
[0]http://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/arbitrage.asp
They take information that they purchased from their previous company, and also collect information presumably, and sell it. Their profit is based on the difference in that informations value to a different buyer.
A service worker submits background info, how much they are willing to work for, logistics of what they'll do and other info. This is free for homejoy because that person wants to work and this will let them do that.
They take that information and sell it to a buyer. The buyer pays:
cost = [workers specified rate] + [ informations value]
So homejoys profit is presumably something like the value of that information - opex as they likely have no assets.
I am not saying there is anything wrong or unethical about this, just that there are no barriers to entry, high competition and high ability to substitute this for many things. This is sort of like the yelp model, except that yelp, despite some of the hits to its reputation, has a massive data set that is relatively complete and very difficult to replicate now in magnitude and completeness, it is also more broadly useful. While eating out is, to some extent, a luxury, people do need food. So more people, I would baselessly assert, eat out in some capacity on the monthly basis than have their home professionally cleaned.
[0]http://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/arbitrage.asp
We both understand arbitrage to mean the same thing. Where we disagree is on whether or not this is the correct way to describe what homejoy is doing. I don't think that your model fits the actual facts of the transaction.
This confirms my suspicion that most startups have fake testimonials on their landing page.
How do they make money? The cleaners can set their own hourly rate and get to keep the tips. If Homeaglow simply takes a cut, say 10%, then the cleaners don't really get their requested hourly rate though...
They do if they automatically Homeaglow automatically adds on the 10% to the advertised price.
Thanks, after finding a ZIP code they actually serve (94117), I saw that they charge a flat $5 processing fee on top, regardless of the cleaners rate or # of hours. I assume they charge that for all follow-up cleaner visits too.
In that line art picture slider it looks like they will bring me more books and a new plant? That's a service I might pay for. After the cleaner comes your house has more cool stuff in it.
They also apparently re-upholster your couch and put the buttons back in different locations...
I noted that they look to repoint your brick work also.
Also, I have a cleaner but prefer them to leave some of the spiders in my house. Those spiders hopefully deter the more dangerous ones (redbacks, white-tailed, etc) and their webs hopefully frustrate mosquitoes.
Also, I have a cleaner but prefer them to leave some of the spiders in my house. Those spiders hopefully deter the more dangerous ones (redbacks, white-tailed, etc) and their webs hopefully frustrate mosquitoes.
homejoy taught me that honestly, it's much less trouble to just clean my own damn apartment.
laundry, on the other hand, i will gladly outsource.
edit: only because i don't have in-unit laundry.
laundry, on the other hand, i will gladly outsource.
edit: only because i don't have in-unit laundry.
People mocked the laundry-folding robot at CES, but if one that works and isn't too expensive hits the market, then I will absolutely get one.
Rebrand until it sticks?
Honest question -- Is anyone at YC still in regular contact with the Cheungs? They seem to be embarrassing themselves with these repeated attempts. When Homejoy shut down, I still had a lot of respect for what they built. Now, if I were a prospective investor in one of their future ventures, I would have serious doubts about their judgment.
>Once you find a cleaner you love, directly connect with them
to always get them back
Never used Homejoy, was the above always a feature?
Never used Homejoy, was the above always a feature?
It indirectly was a feature. Instead of always going through HomeJoy customers would start going directly to the cleaners cutting HomeJoy out completely. This was on top of HomeJoy offering coupons that made the service so cheap they would lose money until the customer stopped going through them and directly through the cleaner.
Sorry, what I meant was, with the previous implementation of Homejoy, could you get the same person every time?
I realize their issue was people just went around Homejoy and paid the cleaner directly. I'm wondering if people did this because they liked the work the person did and wanted them back but Homejoy didn't offer this feature.
I realize their issue was people just went around Homejoy and paid the cleaner directly. I'm wondering if people did this because they liked the work the person did and wanted them back but Homejoy didn't offer this feature.
I may have been a bit facetious with my response previously but if I remember correctly HomeJoy offered that. Though it may be irrelevant whether HomeJoy offered the feature or not; if you're interacting with a person directly and you have the opportunity to continue working with them and it would be better financially for both of you (no HomeJoy cut for the cleaner and likely a lower price for you) then it's a bit inevitable. That was one of the issues HomeJoy ran into.
Perhaps HomeAglow is structured differently? Their website doesn't say.
Perhaps HomeAglow is structured differently? Their website doesn't say.
I can understand why customers skirted Homejoy, and I would likely do the same. I asked my original question because I had wondered if that was there attempt at solving a pain point. Perhaps they lost customers not because they wanted to save $20, but because they wanted that same cleaner back and Homejoy didn't offer that option. So the only solution was to talk directly to the cleaner and cut the middle man. However it sounds like the above might not be true and people truly just wanted to save $20 and the process of booking and paying the cleaner isn't a lot of work (text them, set up time, pay using square/cheque/cash).
Did they solve their untenable business model of assuming that cleaners are interchangeable service workers AND assuming that cleaners aren't smart enough to cut out the middle-man who literally does nothing after the initial introduction?
In case there is any confusion on the matter, Homeaglow is the operating name of ABAP Holdings, incorporated in Delaware in August 2015. The company has two employees, and Mr. Aaron Chueng is listed as a co-founder and principal contact.
Aaron Cheung just won't give up. I wonder what site he wget'ed this time?
Hard to see how this will have better luck than the last X iterations of this "Uber" for cleaners idea...
How are you supposed to say this? "Ho me ah glow"? "Home ah glow"? What a weird name choice.
"Home aglow".
(aglow: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aglow)
(aglow: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aglow)
Home A-glow.
Aglow is a word: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aglow
Aglow is a word: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aglow
"When you leave the oven on and come home hours later -- Home-A-Glow!"
The art of pivoting - Homejoy in its current concept was literally the 13th idea we fully built out and tried to execute on and tried to get customers for. And so a lot of the questions I get are," How do you even get to that 13th idea, and how did you decide when to move on?" The best guidance that I can give on that is the kind of look at these three criteria, which is once you realize that you can't grow, and despite building out all of these great features and talking to all of these users none of them stick, or the economics of the business just don't make sense - then once you make that realization you just need to move on.
Adora Cheung, How to Start a Startup; Lecture 4
They worked hard, but at the end of the day this is really hard to execute on because it is a luxury item, not very sticky, has no urgency and the barriers to entry are virtually non-existent. Uber is a good market maker in an analogous indutry, however they have some pretty key differences.
* Extreme urgency. If I need to get to point B, it is likely important that the quicker and easier I can get there from point A is important to me. I can probably wait to have my room cleaned, but I definitely need to be at work by 9 all the times it is a weekday or I have to be there.
* Bigger market. There are more people who, at some point during the day, find themselves needing to go somewhere that isn't where they are. Probably more people travel over a mile a day than need their house cleaned.
* Cheaper and more efficient. Uber is much cheaper than Taxis in many situations, and often a higher value prop. You can save money taking a subway and a bus to many locations, but of these things do not go to the destination in an acceptable schedule, Uber will, and it will do it cheaply and there aren't too many options although there are certainly some. If you need your house cleaned, you can google like 10-4000 providers.
* Labour is more attractive. This one is big, maybe biggest. While Uber has been slashing prices, and not offering a great value prop to drivers in many cases (based on conversations with a few drivers) they are still held in relatively high esteem by society, and the work itself is of (for many) more desirable than cleaning houses. Given the option for equivalent wages, I would rather drive around and pick people up than clean someones house.
At the end of the day Uber and Homejoy are information arbatrageurs. The delta between knowing where all cars that would be willing to take a fare are as well as where all the people who need to travel are, is a lot more valuable than knowing how to contact all the people who are willing to clean houses is.
editII: unpredicatability. I can't predict that fucking bank of america would cancel my credit card at 5:00am in the morning when I was leaving the bar to get a cab. I needed a ride and 10 minutes prior had no idea. I can however, pretty regularly predict when I need my house cleaned making it quite easy to evaluate options and make those arrangements.
* difficulty to complete by user. I could, if I was some sort of heathen or proletariat type punter, clean my own house. However, it would be more difficult for me to travel somewhere far away. Granted, cleaning a dirty house would take a long time, but if we just assume an average uber is like 4 miles, most people would pay like 6.00 to not walk 4 miles which would be about an hour. However, many people would spend an hour cleaning their house rather than have a complete stranger come over and do it for them for >6.00 while they waited.
Adora Cheung, How to Start a Startup; Lecture 4
They worked hard, but at the end of the day this is really hard to execute on because it is a luxury item, not very sticky, has no urgency and the barriers to entry are virtually non-existent. Uber is a good market maker in an analogous indutry, however they have some pretty key differences.
* Extreme urgency. If I need to get to point B, it is likely important that the quicker and easier I can get there from point A is important to me. I can probably wait to have my room cleaned, but I definitely need to be at work by 9 all the times it is a weekday or I have to be there.
* Bigger market. There are more people who, at some point during the day, find themselves needing to go somewhere that isn't where they are. Probably more people travel over a mile a day than need their house cleaned.
* Cheaper and more efficient. Uber is much cheaper than Taxis in many situations, and often a higher value prop. You can save money taking a subway and a bus to many locations, but of these things do not go to the destination in an acceptable schedule, Uber will, and it will do it cheaply and there aren't too many options although there are certainly some. If you need your house cleaned, you can google like 10-4000 providers.
* Labour is more attractive. This one is big, maybe biggest. While Uber has been slashing prices, and not offering a great value prop to drivers in many cases (based on conversations with a few drivers) they are still held in relatively high esteem by society, and the work itself is of (for many) more desirable than cleaning houses. Given the option for equivalent wages, I would rather drive around and pick people up than clean someones house.
At the end of the day Uber and Homejoy are information arbatrageurs. The delta between knowing where all cars that would be willing to take a fare are as well as where all the people who need to travel are, is a lot more valuable than knowing how to contact all the people who are willing to clean houses is.
editII: unpredicatability. I can't predict that fucking bank of america would cancel my credit card at 5:00am in the morning when I was leaving the bar to get a cab. I needed a ride and 10 minutes prior had no idea. I can however, pretty regularly predict when I need my house cleaned making it quite easy to evaluate options and make those arrangements.
* difficulty to complete by user. I could, if I was some sort of heathen or proletariat type punter, clean my own house. However, it would be more difficult for me to travel somewhere far away. Granted, cleaning a dirty house would take a long time, but if we just assume an average uber is like 4 miles, most people would pay like 6.00 to not walk 4 miles which would be about an hour. However, many people would spend an hour cleaning their house rather than have a complete stranger come over and do it for them for >6.00 while they waited.
I think another fundamental difference between cleaning and cab rides is that with cab rides you're essentially buying a different product each time (because you are going to/from different points) so the value of a marketplace is much higher. With cleaning services, you're buying the same product again and again (same house, same procedure, etc.) so the marketplace is just a useless middleman.
this is interesting, and I overlooked it completely but it is fundamentally important. Uber, Lyft and AirBnB are probably the best known sharing economy companies. While you could make the point that each house homejoy cleans is different, and to the worker they go to different locations, but to the user this is a service commodity.
While, like apples or coffee vary in quality, if they are at a certain bar it doesn't matter. To a user a clean house is pretty similar so really the only thing that matters is how I value cleanliness. I can even do it myself in a pinch. So the reputation almost has no value for a commodity product.
You either trust homejoy/homeaglow or you trust someone else, but the result is nearly the same and managing this is not complex because you need almost the same thing everytime. So if you independently find someone to do it, you can just have them do the same thing repeatedly.
Ride and homesharing provide the same service in different places and contexts and they provide the complex coordination of scheduling and market making on the fly. Diverting a moving vehicle to pick up a person in a different location than their last ride and bringing them to a location they have never been before.
Airbnb provides people with different schedules to coordinate buying and selling space in differing locations with a degree of trust and efficiency. You get a different product from airbnb every time.
Homejoy does not provide a distinct service from either the market, or itself.
really good point.
not sure what the service equivalent of a commodity is.
While, like apples or coffee vary in quality, if they are at a certain bar it doesn't matter. To a user a clean house is pretty similar so really the only thing that matters is how I value cleanliness. I can even do it myself in a pinch. So the reputation almost has no value for a commodity product.
You either trust homejoy/homeaglow or you trust someone else, but the result is nearly the same and managing this is not complex because you need almost the same thing everytime. So if you independently find someone to do it, you can just have them do the same thing repeatedly.
Ride and homesharing provide the same service in different places and contexts and they provide the complex coordination of scheduling and market making on the fly. Diverting a moving vehicle to pick up a person in a different location than their last ride and bringing them to a location they have never been before.
Airbnb provides people with different schedules to coordinate buying and selling space in differing locations with a degree of trust and efficiency. You get a different product from airbnb every time.
Homejoy does not provide a distinct service from either the market, or itself.
really good point.
not sure what the service equivalent of a commodity is.
Insightful comment and one that many so-called "uber for x" companies should study up on.
While I can agree with your points, but it is only possible to analyze N reasons when it is established that the business failed. Had they not, we would be applauding the sheer effort that went into the startup.
The way I see it, if you are not building something that businesses will pay for (B2B), you are making a huge bet akin to a lottery.
The way I see it, if you are not building something that businesses will pay for (B2B), you are making a huge bet akin to a lottery.
Why?
Previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10466888