Am I Introverted, or Just Rude?(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Am I Introverted, or Just Rude?
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/25/opinion/sunday/am-i-introverted-or-just-rude.html?ref=opinion
246 comments
Haha, just tonight my wife was talking away about this and that and I was completely oblivious with occasional "uh huhs" and "yeahs" when she suddenly stopped and said, "Do you not want to talk right now?"
I said, "No, no, I'm just tired."
She said, "It's ok if you don't want to talk. Just say so."
Thirty-eight years after we met, I think she's on to me.
I said, "No, no, I'm just tired."
She said, "It's ok if you don't want to talk. Just say so."
Thirty-eight years after we met, I think she's on to me.
Oh... oh gosh. This is exactly what happens between my girlfriend and me. I'm guessing this is what will probably happen years into the future. Thanks. ;)
I'd like to think that much of the time she generally understands me, and bless her heart she really does her best, but sometimes when it gets late my ability to maintain conversation just tapers off and crashes. Now I'm not sure if it's me being rude or it's just some mental block that happens! I really want to believe it's the latter, because my ability to stay engaged diminishes after about 9PM and my mind wanders. It's like a conversation shut-off valve clicks in my head.
The plus side is that she is probably better at reading me than I am, so she usually detects when I'm reaching that point before I do.
I swear we've even had the same conversation.
I'd like to think that much of the time she generally understands me, and bless her heart she really does her best, but sometimes when it gets late my ability to maintain conversation just tapers off and crashes. Now I'm not sure if it's me being rude or it's just some mental block that happens! I really want to believe it's the latter, because my ability to stay engaged diminishes after about 9PM and my mind wanders. It's like a conversation shut-off valve clicks in my head.
The plus side is that she is probably better at reading me than I am, so she usually detects when I'm reaching that point before I do.
I swear we've even had the same conversation.
I can't count how many times the wife will say something to me or ask me something while I'm on the computer and I nod and agree and then she asks for a real answer and I realize I wasn't actually listening.
Fortunately we keep good humor about it, and I do try not to do it too often and am usually successful.
Fortunately we keep good humor about it, and I do try not to do it too often and am usually successful.
I think for me, getting the quiet time I need is the biggest way I avoid being rude. As you say, it's like getting enough sleep. Over-drawing my sociability account now just means I'm risking being rude to somebody else later, so if I really want to respect people, I need to carefully control the amount of social time I spend and try to pick things that are less draining.
But for when I'm peopled out, I definitely have some tricks:
* Go to the bathroom and spend a couple of minutes in peace.
* Say "Hey, it's noisy/hot/chaotic in here; want to get some fresh air?"
* At work, I like doing walking meetings, which are less socially intense for me.
* Have socially acceptable reasons for leaving early. E.g., running regularly in the mornings means I can say, "Oh, gotta get up early to train for my race!"
* Minimizing other things that draw down my sociability, like noisy work environments.
* Get people talking to one another. E.g., "You mentioned X. Let me grab Jane, who's very interested in X too!"
I've also had some luck going to events with introvert buddies. If you both go get some quiet together, it doesn't look like you're being antisocial.
But for when I'm peopled out, I definitely have some tricks:
* Go to the bathroom and spend a couple of minutes in peace.
* Say "Hey, it's noisy/hot/chaotic in here; want to get some fresh air?"
* At work, I like doing walking meetings, which are less socially intense for me.
* Have socially acceptable reasons for leaving early. E.g., running regularly in the mornings means I can say, "Oh, gotta get up early to train for my race!"
* Minimizing other things that draw down my sociability, like noisy work environments.
* Get people talking to one another. E.g., "You mentioned X. Let me grab Jane, who's very interested in X too!"
I've also had some luck going to events with introvert buddies. If you both go get some quiet together, it doesn't look like you're being antisocial.
A technique that I have found to be useful is to focus my attention on studying the people themselves, not the words they are saying. By that I mean I turn myself temporarily into a researcher who is watching people (not creepily), and trying to figure them out. I try to discover the reasons and purposes behind things such as facial expression and gesture, clothes and appearances, words and actions at the moment, different ways in which they (maybe involuntarily) interact with different people in the meeting, etc. etc.
I know this sounds a bit cold but surely this is better than I repeatedly decline their invitations, isn't it? And my purpose is pure, I want to be more friendly. Surprisingly, it turns out that since experimenting with this technique I am actually happier than when in the old fake-engaging mode. Also the arsenal of my chit-chatting topics are expanding gloriously because of a better understanding of the persons in front of me.
Most of the times the people(their personal histories, their intentions to be here, their appearances, etc.) are more interesting than whatever their words at the moment. As an example let's consider people's wardrobe, you can ask yourself why does this guy or that lady dress like that for this particular gathering? Did they put thoughts into choosing the clothes or they didn't? If you think they did choose carefully, what were their thoughts? What does the choice say about their personalities, their views on this gathering and people here, their background, etc. What information do this pair of shoes give out about their owner? Even such a small matter can give you a lot to chew on. At least for me this is not boring stuff.
I have used this technique for a few years to a certain extent of success. I admit it's easier said than done. So when in meeting I try to split my attention into two halves, one on listening to the conversation itself(the words people are saying), the other half on studying the persons.
I know this sounds a bit cold but surely this is better than I repeatedly decline their invitations, isn't it? And my purpose is pure, I want to be more friendly. Surprisingly, it turns out that since experimenting with this technique I am actually happier than when in the old fake-engaging mode. Also the arsenal of my chit-chatting topics are expanding gloriously because of a better understanding of the persons in front of me.
Most of the times the people(their personal histories, their intentions to be here, their appearances, etc.) are more interesting than whatever their words at the moment. As an example let's consider people's wardrobe, you can ask yourself why does this guy or that lady dress like that for this particular gathering? Did they put thoughts into choosing the clothes or they didn't? If you think they did choose carefully, what were their thoughts? What does the choice say about their personalities, their views on this gathering and people here, their background, etc. What information do this pair of shoes give out about their owner? Even such a small matter can give you a lot to chew on. At least for me this is not boring stuff.
I have used this technique for a few years to a certain extent of success. I admit it's easier said than done. So when in meeting I try to split my attention into two halves, one on listening to the conversation itself(the words people are saying), the other half on studying the persons.
For anyone interested in becoming more cognizant of body language/non-verbal communication, check out Chris Hadnagy's Unmasking The Social Engineer[1]. It will make socializing or just people watching far more interesting and engaging.
[1]https://www.amazon.com/Unmasking-Social-Engineer-Element-Sec...
[1]https://www.amazon.com/Unmasking-Social-Engineer-Element-Sec...
My coping mechanism is to try to control the conversation. If your mind is wandering because you're bored with something your friends are talking about, try to change the conversation to something more interesting. If your friends consistently want to talk about topics you don't find interesting, you should probably find new friends or at least more variety.
That's a dangerous one, too. It depends on the group, friends, yes. Absolutely. Or people who you know are with you on that and you can detect that quickly as in OK that's the kind of person whose throat I might be at on HN. Excellent. Let the games begin.
But recently started in with the questions and so on with some people who didn't want anything questioned all that much. Understandable as, frankly, it's not all that relaxing to have someone questioning you who's obviously trying to sort of challenge your beliefs and opinions. Not everyone wants to talk through or possibly think through things and I regret it a little. The problem is that these people were comfortable with a certain amount of discussion intensity but there was a line. And I crossed it. It was a little tense. Ugh.
And it's not about disagreement. I mis-characterized that a bit. It's about taking it up a notch in intensity.
But recently started in with the questions and so on with some people who didn't want anything questioned all that much. Understandable as, frankly, it's not all that relaxing to have someone questioning you who's obviously trying to sort of challenge your beliefs and opinions. Not everyone wants to talk through or possibly think through things and I regret it a little. The problem is that these people were comfortable with a certain amount of discussion intensity but there was a line. And I crossed it. It was a little tense. Ugh.
And it's not about disagreement. I mis-characterized that a bit. It's about taking it up a notch in intensity.
It isn't that the conversation is boring - it is more similar to the sensation of not having slept for 36h and struggling to keep my eyelids open. If I was rested I'd find it easy to concentrate, and I'd probably actually find the conversation very interesting.
> Are there any introverts out there who have developed coping mechanisms
Fake it. I realised couple of years back that there are times when I am not really interested in the conversation but its rude to zone out so I pretend and act as if I am interested.
Fake it. I realised couple of years back that there are times when I am not really interested in the conversation but its rude to zone out so I pretend and act as if I am interested.
I couldn't agree more. Force yourself to fake it. The conversation won't last forever and you'll leave a good impression which will be a) a social benefit for you in future meetings, and b) possibly helpful to the other person (imagine if they are thinking "oh man, people usually find me so boring but this person is really listening to me"...)
@smsm42 we might not be able to run like Usain Bolt, but we are able to force ourselves to maintain concentration and pretend for a while.
@smsm42 we might not be able to run like Usain Bolt, but we are able to force ourselves to maintain concentration and pretend for a while.
I'm not sure if you're introverted to the same degree, but NO, I cannot just force myself to maintain concentration. Maybe for 30 seconds, then I'm back to staring blankly across the room until someone says my name again.
This is not something I can control. I don't enjoy it and I'm not doing it on purpose. I've used this analogy too many times on this story already, but it is like I'm horribly sleep deprived and people want me to stay awake for things that I'm utterly incapable of doing in my present state.
This is not something I can control. I don't enjoy it and I'm not doing it on purpose. I've used this analogy too many times on this story already, but it is like I'm horribly sleep deprived and people want me to stay awake for things that I'm utterly incapable of doing in my present state.
Faking it isn't about maintaining mental concentration. If someone is paying attention to you, then it's probably going to be obvious that you're faking it.
Thing is... most people either (a) don't know you well enough to say that you're being flakey or (b) aren't paying that much attention... the free flowing alcohol of adult-aged parties and meetings really helps with this respect.
How do you fake it without putting in concentration? Pay attention to what other people do in similar circumstances: platitudes, sounds of agreement, sticking to unspectacular and unnovel topics like weather/books/sports. I know personally, I don't even like certain sports, but after hearing 3-4 conversations about a particular team, I can regurgitate the mosaic of other peoples opinions about the team.
Thing is... most people either (a) don't know you well enough to say that you're being flakey or (b) aren't paying that much attention... the free flowing alcohol of adult-aged parties and meetings really helps with this respect.
How do you fake it without putting in concentration? Pay attention to what other people do in similar circumstances: platitudes, sounds of agreement, sticking to unspectacular and unnovel topics like weather/books/sports. I know personally, I don't even like certain sports, but after hearing 3-4 conversations about a particular team, I can regurgitate the mosaic of other peoples opinions about the team.
What should I do when 95% or more of the conversations I have are me faking interest?
I actively try to avoid acting rude whenever I can, but in the area I live, I am generally not interested in what people have to say.
I actively try to avoid acting rude whenever I can, but in the area I live, I am generally not interested in what people have to say.
It's easier said than done. Can you fake being able to run like Usain Bolt? What about if you already run a marathon before it? Sometimes there are things you can do and there are things that are beyond you.
>It's easier said than done. Can you fake being able to run like Usain Bolt?
Fortunately, parent didn't advice to fake running like Bolt, just to fake something everybody (except a tiny minority with actual clinical issues) can do: feign interest.
Fortunately, parent didn't advice to fake running like Bolt, just to fake something everybody (except a tiny minority with actual clinical issues) can do: feign interest.
It's actually rather difficult to fake interest in a conversation convincingly, at least in my personal experience. There's only so much nodding and murmured words of agreement one can do before people catch on.
Same here. If I have to interact with people I don't know well, it drains the energy, and I need to recharge after that. Sometimes happens even with people I know, and couple of times it produced a really rude behavior, for which I am very regretful, I didn't really meant to be rude but externally, it looked that way and people noticed. Because it was with friends, which forgave me, it didn't have any bad consequences, but I'd prefer not to do it again.
Unfortunately, don't have a very good recipe except trying to mostly either meet with people I have common interests or pursuits or passions and do not over-extend the interactions past the point where it begins to be taxing both parties, or just leave when I feel my "batteries" are drained enough to the point where I can't be socially adequate. Most people will accept something like "got to work early in the morning" - which also may independently be true :) - and will feel much better than with bad simulation of social behavior.
Not all people understand that some people have limits like this.
Unfortunately, don't have a very good recipe except trying to mostly either meet with people I have common interests or pursuits or passions and do not over-extend the interactions past the point where it begins to be taxing both parties, or just leave when I feel my "batteries" are drained enough to the point where I can't be socially adequate. Most people will accept something like "got to work early in the morning" - which also may independently be true :) - and will feel much better than with bad simulation of social behavior.
Not all people understand that some people have limits like this.
My coping mechanism involves just giving myself a quick break within the social event. Head off to the bathroom once in a while, spend some time in the stall recharging and then go back out. You don't need to leave the social function completely to recharge.
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Here's an article that describes the phenomenon: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121030161416.h...
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"When I skip big gatherings of strangers, I’m not just being a little rude to the individual people around me, I’m being uncivil in a larger sense. The more we isolate ourselves from new people, the more isolated and segregated our society is likely to become"
What is the objective justification for calling skipping a gathering of strangers rude? Who is to say that a society where people are more apart won't turn out better, once people get over the antiquated notion that they MUST be connected or they are somehow defective?
"There are many excuses for failing to conduct ourselves with courtesy, for avoiding gatherings and conversations we don’t think we will enjoy, or for just putting on our pajamas and staying home. Too many of them boil down to just that one thing: We care more about ourselves than about the needs of others.
That’s not about introversion. It’s just an ordinary version of selfishness."
Perhaps an many introverts are introverted because they had social interactions that were traumatic, and they don't trust others to reciprocate if they give? Most of the introverts I've gotten to know are exceedingly kind and loyal once they view you as a legitimate human being.
What is the objective justification for calling skipping a gathering of strangers rude? Who is to say that a society where people are more apart won't turn out better, once people get over the antiquated notion that they MUST be connected or they are somehow defective?
"There are many excuses for failing to conduct ourselves with courtesy, for avoiding gatherings and conversations we don’t think we will enjoy, or for just putting on our pajamas and staying home. Too many of them boil down to just that one thing: We care more about ourselves than about the needs of others.
That’s not about introversion. It’s just an ordinary version of selfishness."
Perhaps an many introverts are introverted because they had social interactions that were traumatic, and they don't trust others to reciprocate if they give? Most of the introverts I've gotten to know are exceedingly kind and loyal once they view you as a legitimate human being.
> Perhaps an many introverts are introverted because they had social interactions that were traumatic
I don't think so, at least not on my experience. I think just some people have limits on how much social interaction they can do - just as some people have limits on how much they can run or lift - and closer to the limit, harder it becomes. If somebody invited you to run a marathon, you may happily accept or you may politely decline if you are not a big runner. If somebody would invite you to a party where you have to bring a grand piano to the top of the hill just for the fun of it - you may enthusiastically accept or decline if you're not a fan of lifting grand pianos. For some introverts social interaction, especially with a lot of previously unknown people, is work - and one may be just not inclined to do that amount of hard work that day.
> We care more about ourselves than about the needs of others.
This is a basic truth, everybody does that, except a very few people we call "saints". Everybody who doesn't give up all their possessions beyond basic physical subsistence, does not live under the bridge and spends at least a minute of their day for anything other than satisfying needs of others is "selfish" this way - and it's completely normal and IMHO one doesn't have to feel eternally guilty about it.
I don't think so, at least not on my experience. I think just some people have limits on how much social interaction they can do - just as some people have limits on how much they can run or lift - and closer to the limit, harder it becomes. If somebody invited you to run a marathon, you may happily accept or you may politely decline if you are not a big runner. If somebody would invite you to a party where you have to bring a grand piano to the top of the hill just for the fun of it - you may enthusiastically accept or decline if you're not a fan of lifting grand pianos. For some introverts social interaction, especially with a lot of previously unknown people, is work - and one may be just not inclined to do that amount of hard work that day.
> We care more about ourselves than about the needs of others.
This is a basic truth, everybody does that, except a very few people we call "saints". Everybody who doesn't give up all their possessions beyond basic physical subsistence, does not live under the bridge and spends at least a minute of their day for anything other than satisfying needs of others is "selfish" this way - and it's completely normal and IMHO one doesn't have to feel eternally guilty about it.
Perhaps an many introverts are introverted because they had social interactions that were traumatic, and they don't trust others to reciprocate if they give? Most of the introverts I've gotten to know are exceedingly kind and loyal once they view you as a legitimate human being.
No. Introversion is not damage. Introversion is not about lack of trust.
It is entirely possible to be "exceedingly kind and loyal", and yet also find socializing to be tiring and not really enjoyable.
No. Introversion is not damage. Introversion is not about lack of trust.
It is entirely possible to be "exceedingly kind and loyal", and yet also find socializing to be tiring and not really enjoyable.
>Perhaps an many introverts are introverted because they had social interactions that were traumatic, and they don't trust others to reciprocate if they give?
I really don't think that is the case, introverts aren't "broken angels who just need to be won over," they have completely different internal motivations.
I really don't think that is the case, introverts aren't "broken angels who just need to be won over," they have completely different internal motivations.
Besides... implying that extroverts don't have traumatic social experiences? Statistically speaking, extroverts should have many times more such bad social experiences simply because they have many more total social experiences.
If that's your argument, then it boils down to extroverts evidently being able to "get over it" much better than introverts.
If that's your argument, then it boils down to extroverts evidently being able to "get over it" much better than introverts.
In my case at least, I absolutely believe the ability to "get over" bad social experiences can turn someone into an introvert or extrovert over their lifetimes.
For example, no amount of conscious effort allows me to let go of bad social encounters, so instead I have a treasure chest of repressed memories over several years (my brain likes to pull one out at random late at night just to torture me sometimes).
Further social interaction always puts me at risk of accumulating more bad experiences that can't be let go, so as a result I have to work extra hard whenever I talk to strangers or acquaintances to overcome the anxiety and "perform well". Around close family where I can be myself, social interaction is not exhausting and I feel like an extrovert.
In other words, perhaps inability to "get over it" leads to social anxiety which leads to taxing social interactions which leads to introversion (...which leads to suffering).
Doesn't necessarily explain introversion for all people, though.
For example, no amount of conscious effort allows me to let go of bad social encounters, so instead I have a treasure chest of repressed memories over several years (my brain likes to pull one out at random late at night just to torture me sometimes).
Further social interaction always puts me at risk of accumulating more bad experiences that can't be let go, so as a result I have to work extra hard whenever I talk to strangers or acquaintances to overcome the anxiety and "perform well". Around close family where I can be myself, social interaction is not exhausting and I feel like an extrovert.
In other words, perhaps inability to "get over it" leads to social anxiety which leads to taxing social interactions which leads to introversion (...which leads to suffering).
Doesn't necessarily explain introversion for all people, though.
> In my case at least, I absolutely believe the ability to "get over" bad social experiences can turn someone into an introvert or extrovert over their lifetimes.
I'm pretty sure that's not the case. One shouldn't mix introversion, shyness and social anxiety. It might be easier to develop social anxiety if your're an introverted or shy person, but you can't overcome your introversion like you can overcome your social anxiety, they're just completely different things.
I'm pretty sure that's not the case. One shouldn't mix introversion, shyness and social anxiety. It might be easier to develop social anxiety if your're an introverted or shy person, but you can't overcome your introversion like you can overcome your social anxiety, they're just completely different things.
Right. I like anyone have my share of bad experiences, however, I am not shy at all, I am not afraid to talk to people, I just don't prefer it because it taxes on my energy.
I think the point is not that introverts don't have bad experiences, but that it's not those experiences that make them introverts, being an introvert is just a quality like being a right- or left-handed.
Sorry, I'm agreeing with the parent comment and adding a corollary that the grandparent comment implies that extroverts don't suffer social trauma.
Skipping a gathering is not rude unless the purpose of the gathering is to honor someone that you care about. Say a birthday party, wedding, that kind of thing. It's not only rude to not come, it's rude to be a grump sitting in the corner too. Because it's about the two people getting married. Yeah, it's rude to not have fun at an event like that. Have to try at least and not complain even the slightest bit. Now at your party, cry if if you want to I think is the appropriate philosophy. I'd say those are the only obligatory events.
You'll note the author phrased it as "uncivil" not rude.
Too many of them boil down to just that one thing: We care more about ourselves than about the needs of others. That’s not about introversion. It’s just an ordinary version of selfishness.
The whole article was trying desperately to shoehorn the quote above as the ultimate truth, but it neglects important nuances and makes me wonder what the author's agenda is. Is the inverse statement true, that extraverts care more about others? That their behaviour is less selfish? Or could it be that both extraverts and introverts can be both selfish and generous, depending ultimately on the individual. That extroversion can be a tool to network with others for no other reason than to gain social mind-share for personal profit, as well as be used to build meaningful relationships depending on how it's wielded and the intention of the user? Or that introversion can be an excuse to snub ones peers as well as a tool to focus their efforts on what they find important, including helping others, rather than spreading themselves thin on many (often meaningless) endeavours?
The author's perspective betrays the unspoken expectations of their culture (as does the name of the publisher). In North Western Europe it's not unusual to keep to yourself and avoid small talk. My partner and I can go for hours without talking to each other while sitting in the same room, often next to each other. You don't have to discuss every idea or observation that pops into your head. You can let an idea brew in your mind, digest it so that when you do discuss it, you can start at a more sophisticated level rather than babbling half formed thoughts and filling the verbal voids with "...like, you know..."
This odd anxiety where if you're not doing or saying something, that you can't just stare out the window and watch the world pass by - that the proper thing to do is to pick up your phone, call a friend, and perform a post-mortem on the little thoughts buzzing around in your head gives me the fucking shits. Sit down quietly and form a cogent thought for one minute PLEASE. Then you'll have something worth talking about.
The whole article was trying desperately to shoehorn the quote above as the ultimate truth, but it neglects important nuances and makes me wonder what the author's agenda is. Is the inverse statement true, that extraverts care more about others? That their behaviour is less selfish? Or could it be that both extraverts and introverts can be both selfish and generous, depending ultimately on the individual. That extroversion can be a tool to network with others for no other reason than to gain social mind-share for personal profit, as well as be used to build meaningful relationships depending on how it's wielded and the intention of the user? Or that introversion can be an excuse to snub ones peers as well as a tool to focus their efforts on what they find important, including helping others, rather than spreading themselves thin on many (often meaningless) endeavours?
The author's perspective betrays the unspoken expectations of their culture (as does the name of the publisher). In North Western Europe it's not unusual to keep to yourself and avoid small talk. My partner and I can go for hours without talking to each other while sitting in the same room, often next to each other. You don't have to discuss every idea or observation that pops into your head. You can let an idea brew in your mind, digest it so that when you do discuss it, you can start at a more sophisticated level rather than babbling half formed thoughts and filling the verbal voids with "...like, you know..."
This odd anxiety where if you're not doing or saying something, that you can't just stare out the window and watch the world pass by - that the proper thing to do is to pick up your phone, call a friend, and perform a post-mortem on the little thoughts buzzing around in your head gives me the fucking shits. Sit down quietly and form a cogent thought for one minute PLEASE. Then you'll have something worth talking about.
Ultimately everything that everyone does is out of satisfying their needs. Whether you need to help other people recover from addiction, or you need a bag of cheetos, both are about your own personal needs. Therefore we are all continually acting out of selfishness.
Introversion and extroversion are a gross and simplified categorization of our personal needs. One or the other may be more socially acceptable, but both are selfish.
Introversion and extroversion are a gross and simplified categorization of our personal needs. One or the other may be more socially acceptable, but both are selfish.
[...] everything that everyone does is out of satisfying their needs [...] we are all continually acting out of selfishness.
If you want to posit feeding the homeless at a soup kitchen as satisfying a desire to feel helpful or fulfilling the wishes of a deity you wish to please in order to secure your place in the afterlife which is ultimately selfish then sure. Let's go one step further and admit we're in a deterministic universe and we have no free will. That takes care of everything. It helps the next beer go down knowing that, despite saying I wasn't going to drink today, it was always going to happen and was determined nearly 14 billion years ago :-)
If you want to posit feeding the homeless at a soup kitchen as satisfying a desire to feel helpful or fulfilling the wishes of a deity you wish to please in order to secure your place in the afterlife which is ultimately selfish then sure. Let's go one step further and admit we're in a deterministic universe and we have no free will. That takes care of everything. It helps the next beer go down knowing that, despite saying I wasn't going to drink today, it was always going to happen and was determined nearly 14 billion years ago :-)
Non sequitur.
I actually agree with you, everything is driven by individual desire i.e. selfishness - even helping others, but it's a bit of a grim way of looking at things. The point I was making is that if we reduce everything to the simplest underlying principal we miss what makes life interesting and we may as well not even be having a discussion.
You could, quite correctly, classify my responses as selfish acts of showing off to gain meaningless kudos in an online forum...or more charitably classify them as thoughtful discourse between people interested in esoteric topics.
You could, quite correctly, classify my responses as selfish acts of showing off to gain meaningless kudos in an online forum...or more charitably classify them as thoughtful discourse between people interested in esoteric topics.
> I actually agree with you, everything is driven by individual desire i.e. selfishness - even helping others, but it's a bit of a grim way of looking at things.
Like you're saying, it's a grim way to look at things and it's even a quite simplified view.
Sure, people sometimes help because of more selfish reasons, that they want to be praised, but I'm pretty sure that pure empathy for people can also be a quite big motivation to help.
Like you're saying, it's a grim way to look at things and it's even a quite simplified view.
Sure, people sometimes help because of more selfish reasons, that they want to be praised, but I'm pretty sure that pure empathy for people can also be a quite big motivation to help.
I don't think it's that bad for introverts here. We're not treated like dirt. We just tend to over think things a bit. Most of the extroverts are too busy socializing to worry about whether someone talks enough. I think everyone puts more weight on their own presence and how much thought others put into to how quiet someone is and so on.
Most people focus on their own thing and aren't all that concerned if yours isn't the exact copy. In other words, I don't think people are really looking and judging MOST of the time that someone thinks they are. Chances are they look disapproving because they have a headache, are tired, and have too much shit to get done to be there and happen to be looking one direction or another, it could be yours.
Most people focus on their own thing and aren't all that concerned if yours isn't the exact copy. In other words, I don't think people are really looking and judging MOST of the time that someone thinks they are. Chances are they look disapproving because they have a headache, are tired, and have too much shit to get done to be there and happen to be looking one direction or another, it could be yours.
If introversion and being a social outcast is their own fault, the society in general and people in functional human relationship networks don't have to feel guilty about it and do anything about it.
well written comment. Found it quite enjoyable.
> When I skip big gatherings of strangers, I’m not just being a little rude to the individual people around me, I’m being uncivil in a larger sense.
I just can't follow this reasoning. People are not entitled to my casual time. I am delighted that there are people in my life who wish I were present more, and it's unfortunate for all concerned that I do not always feel inclined to be. But it is not a wrong done, just an unfortunate circumstance.
I just can't follow this reasoning. People are not entitled to my casual time. I am delighted that there are people in my life who wish I were present more, and it's unfortunate for all concerned that I do not always feel inclined to be. But it is not a wrong done, just an unfortunate circumstance.
There are two extremes - on one side is someone who feels declining any invitation is rude; on the other side is someone who feels it is never rude to decline an invitation. Both extremes and their neighborhoods are pretty far from decent. If you're near one of those extremes, you're not entitled to average folks respecting your actions.
Failing to recognize and live in the grey area somewhere in between (where there is a lot of fair play for diversity which sums up to an individual's personality) doesn't mark you as "introverted" like it's some disability and therefore should be respected, it's simply inconsiderate and if you're unaware of this, it's willful ignorance.
It's not against the law to be inconsiderate, nobody should force you to be different. Just don't expect others to like you, and don't get bitter when they don't.
In other words, when it comes to your "casual time" thinking you're entitled to all of it without reproach is just as bad as someone else thinking they can take any of it at a whim.
Failing to recognize and live in the grey area somewhere in between (where there is a lot of fair play for diversity which sums up to an individual's personality) doesn't mark you as "introverted" like it's some disability and therefore should be respected, it's simply inconsiderate and if you're unaware of this, it's willful ignorance.
It's not against the law to be inconsiderate, nobody should force you to be different. Just don't expect others to like you, and don't get bitter when they don't.
In other words, when it comes to your "casual time" thinking you're entitled to all of it without reproach is just as bad as someone else thinking they can take any of it at a whim.
I disagree. No one is entitled to your casual time, and it's not rude to decline invitations. I have no obligation to spend time with people I don't want to spend time with.
That being said, if I decline any and all invitations, I also have no right to expect to have friends who I can rely on, discover networking opportunities or really meaningful relationships.
It's not inherently rude to decline invitations, but I have to also understand there are consequences.
That being said, if I decline any and all invitations, I also have no right to expect to have friends who I can rely on, discover networking opportunities or really meaningful relationships.
It's not inherently rude to decline invitations, but I have to also understand there are consequences.
Then it comes down to a pedantic discussion of definitions if we're talking about a/any/all/none a single action vs. a series of actions, the qualities of the invitation, etc.
For example, besides from extreme exceptions, it's definitely rude to decline an invitation to your sister's wedding because you don't feel like it.
Likewise it's definitely not rude to decline an invitation to lunch with the coworkers you eat with every day to prepare for an important meeting.
Digging into the weeds about what we really mean by "entitled" and "rude" is probably not productive.
For example, besides from extreme exceptions, it's definitely rude to decline an invitation to your sister's wedding because you don't feel like it.
Likewise it's definitely not rude to decline an invitation to lunch with the coworkers you eat with every day to prepare for an important meeting.
Digging into the weeds about what we really mean by "entitled" and "rude" is probably not productive.
Subtle and adaptive (aka: not rigid, meat cleaver rules). You have it right.
I'm pretty perplexed by your response. Both of your proposed extremes are basically nonexistent.
Also, I am introverted. It really exists, and doesn't need scare quotes. I don't think it's necessarily reasonable to frame it as a disability, but it certainly conveys a different set of abilities than those of extroverts.
Also, I don't even understand why you scare quoted casual time. Do you not distinguish time in which you have obligations to others from time in which you don't?
Also, I am introverted. It really exists, and doesn't need scare quotes. I don't think it's necessarily reasonable to frame it as a disability, but it certainly conveys a different set of abilities than those of extroverts.
Also, I don't even understand why you scare quoted casual time. Do you not distinguish time in which you have obligations to others from time in which you don't?
The extremes are used to make a point. The pure expression probably doesn't exist, but we should all be familiar with those that trend much too close. The whole idea is moderation.
I use "scare quotes" in both circumstances to call into question or express doubt about the legitimacy of the words in context; or in other words to indicate that I'm trying to discuss the usage of the word or phrase instead of it's understood meaning. (I quote "scare quotes" because I'm dubious as to the appropriate usage of the phrase, frightening or insulting anyone with my typography isn't the intent) And I have no idea what "casual time" is. There's a lot of meaning to infer but a lot more meaning to be uncertain about. It's not a phrase I do or would use, but I'm talking about somebody else's usage of that and indicating that by literally quoting them.
The point I was trying to make is that it's wrong to conflate poor social graces with introversion... or there's a strong difference between preferring more time alone and selfishly insisting on your preferences. Extroverts can be just as rude in their own ways.
More generally, there's a worrying trend these days to apply labels to yourself or others to justify being a jerk. "It's ok because I'm/they're/it's an X"
I use "scare quotes" in both circumstances to call into question or express doubt about the legitimacy of the words in context; or in other words to indicate that I'm trying to discuss the usage of the word or phrase instead of it's understood meaning. (I quote "scare quotes" because I'm dubious as to the appropriate usage of the phrase, frightening or insulting anyone with my typography isn't the intent) And I have no idea what "casual time" is. There's a lot of meaning to infer but a lot more meaning to be uncertain about. It's not a phrase I do or would use, but I'm talking about somebody else's usage of that and indicating that by literally quoting them.
The point I was trying to make is that it's wrong to conflate poor social graces with introversion... or there's a strong difference between preferring more time alone and selfishly insisting on your preferences. Extroverts can be just as rude in their own ways.
More generally, there's a worrying trend these days to apply labels to yourself or others to justify being a jerk. "It's ok because I'm/they're/it's an X"
I appreciate you taking the time to respond thoughtfully, even though we probably aren't going to meet in the middle.
Regarding scare quotes: your usage is exactly what is meant by the term. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes.
Casual time is meant to be taken literally, it's not some special jargon, just two words put together. I also clarified the meaning in my previous response.
I don't think anyone but the NYT article author is conflating poor social graces with introversion. My response to that was to unapologetically insist that it is not a matter of rudeness to find socialization burdensome, nor to decline that burden when it is not necessary.
> More generally, there's a worrying trend these days to apply labels to yourself or others to justify being a jerk. "It's ok because I'm/they're/it's an X"
I cannot relate to this worry, it's not something I experience. But in case it's not clear, that is in no way what I was saying. In this context, I would say:
- I am an introvert. That's a fact about me, can't change it, don't even want to most of the time.
- I don't think declining social events is being a jerk. Regardless of whether one is an introvert or not, or whether one is motivated to decline by said introversion.
Regarding scare quotes: your usage is exactly what is meant by the term. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes.
Casual time is meant to be taken literally, it's not some special jargon, just two words put together. I also clarified the meaning in my previous response.
I don't think anyone but the NYT article author is conflating poor social graces with introversion. My response to that was to unapologetically insist that it is not a matter of rudeness to find socialization burdensome, nor to decline that burden when it is not necessary.
> More generally, there's a worrying trend these days to apply labels to yourself or others to justify being a jerk. "It's ok because I'm/they're/it's an X"
I cannot relate to this worry, it's not something I experience. But in case it's not clear, that is in no way what I was saying. In this context, I would say:
- I am an introvert. That's a fact about me, can't change it, don't even want to most of the time.
- I don't think declining social events is being a jerk. Regardless of whether one is an introvert or not, or whether one is motivated to decline by said introversion.
I think "scare quotes" the phrase is by it's nature a pejorative and is often used and/or interpreted as one; sometimes absolutely appropriately. The definition matches close enough, using it can be something like an ad hominem attack. I'm trying to use the typographical tools I have to express ideas, not to take cheap shots at terms I don't like.
--- > I don't think declining social events is being a jerk. Regardless of whether one is an introvert or not, or whether one is motivated to decline by said introversion.
I think frequent refusal to face discomfort for the benefit of others is rude. You have to strike a balance in your life, but there are a lot of ways to strike that balance which are profoundly selfish.
I don't know you, but I've known too many people that went out looking for labels for themselves and when they found them identified with them and let them define who they were. Taking tenancies of a thing and having them reinforced and piled on until a personality trait gets turned into a a problem. I think teaching people that there's this introvert/extrovert dichotomy should be considered harmful because it misses the complexity of people and pushes folks towards extremes instead of enlightening them about themselves.
--- > I don't think declining social events is being a jerk. Regardless of whether one is an introvert or not, or whether one is motivated to decline by said introversion.
I think frequent refusal to face discomfort for the benefit of others is rude. You have to strike a balance in your life, but there are a lot of ways to strike that balance which are profoundly selfish.
I don't know you, but I've known too many people that went out looking for labels for themselves and when they found them identified with them and let them define who they were. Taking tenancies of a thing and having them reinforced and piled on until a personality trait gets turned into a a problem. I think teaching people that there's this introvert/extrovert dichotomy should be considered harmful because it misses the complexity of people and pushes folks towards extremes instead of enlightening them about themselves.
It isn't about facing discomfort. Imagine it was the social norm to go for 36h between sleeps, but for some reason you struggle to stay awake after the first 20h. People tell you to knuckle down and stop being rude, just stay awake like a normal person. You've now been awake for 30h, because your work expects it of you. But after work your friends want to go play soccer. Would it be rude to turn them down? Or would it be more rude to fall asleep while you are playing, or snap at them while you are playing due to the discomfort of pushing yourself well beyond what you are capable of?
This is what being introverted is like, without a sort of social-sleep away from people it is impossible to keep the social part of your brain active in people's presence. You are constantly trying to walk a fine line between offending people by not showing up (which allows you to recharge) and offending people by being socially disfunctional in their presence (which just leaves you more depleted). I don't know if perhaps the introvert phenomenon is maybe something on the very mild end of the autism spectrum, but I do know that, at least without years of experience in dealing with an introvert they care about, extroverts cannot comprehend it without pathologising it in some way.
This is what being introverted is like, without a sort of social-sleep away from people it is impossible to keep the social part of your brain active in people's presence. You are constantly trying to walk a fine line between offending people by not showing up (which allows you to recharge) and offending people by being socially disfunctional in their presence (which just leaves you more depleted). I don't know if perhaps the introvert phenomenon is maybe something on the very mild end of the autism spectrum, but I do know that, at least without years of experience in dealing with an introvert they care about, extroverts cannot comprehend it without pathologising it in some way.
This is often not about labels (though for some people it might be) and self-fulfilling prophecies. I am not afraid of human contact, I do it well, I even enjoy it, but I don't always want to do it. Plus, what I do in my free time is my own business.
So, if I don't want to go to social events, I won't go to social events. Period.
I also see no reason why I should have to justify my choice. The only justification is "because that's what I want to do". If that's not good enough, too bad!
What are you going to do, sue me for "selfishly refusing to meet people in my spare time"? I also find people who bike across the Alps in their free time weird, but it's their choice, and it makes them happy -- live and let live!
So, if I don't want to go to social events, I won't go to social events. Period.
I also see no reason why I should have to justify my choice. The only justification is "because that's what I want to do". If that's not good enough, too bad!
What are you going to do, sue me for "selfishly refusing to meet people in my spare time"? I also find people who bike across the Alps in their free time weird, but it's their choice, and it makes them happy -- live and let live!
Honestly, I respectfully disagree. I don't think I can advance the discussion any further, I would only end up repeating myself.
Well, consider me an extremist then because of if someone thinks they are entitled to even a minute of my time I will kick them out of my life immediately.
I automatically distance myself to people who keep asking to meet up or invite me to stuff where I'm obliged to respond. It has gotten better and easier since I finally stopped making up excuses and just tell them I don't want to.
I automatically distance myself to people who keep asking to meet up or invite me to stuff where I'm obliged to respond. It has gotten better and easier since I finally stopped making up excuses and just tell them I don't want to.
This is really twisted.
Can you give a few typical examples for when your are and aren't entitled to your "casual time"?
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Am I on the spectrum, or does this...
> At first, saying “no” to fund-raisers and coffees brought with it a keen, almost illicit pleasure. What freedom! I started slipping out of meetings and school assemblies at the first possible moment instead of staying to chat. On one delicious occasion, I sat in my car and read a book while my children attended a family-oriented athletic function.
seem like perfectly reasonable behavior? I couldn't care less if someone I knew did this. I had no idea saying no to coffee was rude.
Presumably, if you break one of these rules, e.g. by saying no to some big gathering, you'll be offending someone. This would seem to suggest that there are people out there industriously keeping track of who fails to show up to gatherings and holding it against them. Really? Here, at the end of a century that saw the perfection of human flight, two world wars, and ongoing efforts to make us a multiplanetary species?
If not dragging myself out to spend several hours making small talk is rude, can I just be rude?
> At first, saying “no” to fund-raisers and coffees brought with it a keen, almost illicit pleasure. What freedom! I started slipping out of meetings and school assemblies at the first possible moment instead of staying to chat. On one delicious occasion, I sat in my car and read a book while my children attended a family-oriented athletic function.
seem like perfectly reasonable behavior? I couldn't care less if someone I knew did this. I had no idea saying no to coffee was rude.
Presumably, if you break one of these rules, e.g. by saying no to some big gathering, you'll be offending someone. This would seem to suggest that there are people out there industriously keeping track of who fails to show up to gatherings and holding it against them. Really? Here, at the end of a century that saw the perfection of human flight, two world wars, and ongoing efforts to make us a multiplanetary species?
If not dragging myself out to spend several hours making small talk is rude, can I just be rude?
I don't think it's necessarily about whether you're rude or not.
It's more that relationships require investment. If you never show up to events or coffee with me, don't expect me to be your friend in the future. Similarly, don't expect a deep relationship with your children if instead of interacting with them (or cheering them on) you are always alone or distant.
A single instance isn't rude, but the pattern definitely leads to (justifiable) social isolation.
It's more that relationships require investment. If you never show up to events or coffee with me, don't expect me to be your friend in the future. Similarly, don't expect a deep relationship with your children if instead of interacting with them (or cheering them on) you are always alone or distant.
A single instance isn't rude, but the pattern definitely leads to (justifiable) social isolation.
I entirely agree. But the article outright claims it's rude to decide not to go to large social gatherings full of strangers. (I concede your point on coffee.)
"When I skip big gatherings of strangers, I’m not just being a little rude to the individual people around me, I’m being uncivil in a larger sense. The more we isolate ourselves from new people, the more isolated and segregated our society is likely to become. Those casual interactions in dog runs and at kids’ hockey games are the ones that are most likely to cross social and economic barriers. They expand my little world as well as the overlapping bubbles that create a society."
I went back to the article and found the problem, right here, where she ties together being uncivil in the inevitable human interactions of our day (e.g., bringing your bad energy into the dog park) with how you choose to build community beyond that, implicitly comparing her choices with yours. That's the default tone of the self-congratulatory prig.
Yes, it is good to stretch your comfort zone to meet new people and help build community without choosing situations that would make you miserable. Strangers? Ipso facto good? Rubbish. She may have scared more people off getting out than she inspired as some misguided soul is right now looking at Meetups, choosing "random after dark random networking with drinks" over the LUG. Sure, join the political group or the book club if it inspires you.
"Years ago, I was habitually late. “I can’t help it!” I declared to an expert in time management (I’d turned my effort to reform into a magazine article, as writers do, which gave me the excuse to seek professional help)."
And by the way, showing up late is garden variety selfish behavior that directly harms at least one other actual human being. The author managed to slip in a less insidious self congratulations here, too, a lot of work for one sentence.
I went back to the article and found the problem, right here, where she ties together being uncivil in the inevitable human interactions of our day (e.g., bringing your bad energy into the dog park) with how you choose to build community beyond that, implicitly comparing her choices with yours. That's the default tone of the self-congratulatory prig.
Yes, it is good to stretch your comfort zone to meet new people and help build community without choosing situations that would make you miserable. Strangers? Ipso facto good? Rubbish. She may have scared more people off getting out than she inspired as some misguided soul is right now looking at Meetups, choosing "random after dark random networking with drinks" over the LUG. Sure, join the political group or the book club if it inspires you.
"Years ago, I was habitually late. “I can’t help it!” I declared to an expert in time management (I’d turned my effort to reform into a magazine article, as writers do, which gave me the excuse to seek professional help)."
And by the way, showing up late is garden variety selfish behavior that directly harms at least one other actual human being. The author managed to slip in a less insidious self congratulations here, too, a lot of work for one sentence.
That does not even make sense. How could it possibly be rude to not attend an event of strangers? I probably didn't catch that as I skimmed the article. I'm not that tempted to read it as there's no amount of smoke and mirrors that could convince me. That sounds to me like guilt tripping on a pretty mass scale. That's the author's issue. No need to feel guilty. And no going to events that suck your soul from your body and stomp on it will not help us resolve the our social crises, help achieve world peace, or even nurture your relationships. Just in case the author tried any of those out as proxies for you should go. Come on. Don't be an anti-social twit. You're letting all these strangers down and, well, you're letting America down.
I think that's a reasonable approach you reap what you sow. To me when I hear someone say that an event would be soul crushing or something similar I'm going to go ahead and assume it's not people or a person they want to hang out with. And I was excluding things that are hurtful such as not honoring someone they cared about's celebration for them not you. Also, off the list was basic self preservation. OK, you're not likely to get fired for not attending the one yearly work event but it doesn't help with your reputation so it's not exactly good for the future. So there's a minimum to function as a human being and it's not much. Beyond that, if someone knows they won't have fun absolutely don't go. No obligation. No regrets.
You get events where hardly anyone wants to actually be there. So some of the people who do show up end up resenting those who didn't. Similar story with people that put in an appearance for 20 minutes.
So why have the event in the first place? Seems silly to organize something nobody wants to attend.
Yes, but it's not rude. Say no of course. It's absurd to consider that rude unless it's like your sister's wedding, then it's rude. That sort of thing.
> “Sorry I’m late,” the T-shirt reads. “I didn’t want to be here.”
I don't want to seem rude, but what usually gets me with such cutesy sayings is that it's wholly trite and unoriginal, and why would you want that on a t-shirt you wear?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Sorry+I%E2%80%99m+late+I+did....
If someone were to show me one of these shirts, and be like, "hey, that's you!", I would kinda feel like... you don't really know who I am. You're just trying to explain something as complex as an introvert's inside life and not doing so well.
So, maybe I do feel for the author of the piece.
I feel also that (as an introvert), it's not that I don't want to hang out with my wonderful friends, it's just that there's something I want to do much, much, more, that just happens to be something I do alone. Tonight, my friends want to go dancing, and I love dancing (and I love my friends), but the weather is nice tomorrow, and riding a bike longer than anyone I know would want to is completely irresistible to me. My hobbies have become so extreme as I'm the only one that now participates in them. Anyone can go drinking and dancing. It's inclusive like that.
I don't want to seem rude, but what usually gets me with such cutesy sayings is that it's wholly trite and unoriginal, and why would you want that on a t-shirt you wear?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Sorry+I%E2%80%99m+late+I+did....
If someone were to show me one of these shirts, and be like, "hey, that's you!", I would kinda feel like... you don't really know who I am. You're just trying to explain something as complex as an introvert's inside life and not doing so well.
So, maybe I do feel for the author of the piece.
I feel also that (as an introvert), it's not that I don't want to hang out with my wonderful friends, it's just that there's something I want to do much, much, more, that just happens to be something I do alone. Tonight, my friends want to go dancing, and I love dancing (and I love my friends), but the weather is nice tomorrow, and riding a bike longer than anyone I know would want to is completely irresistible to me. My hobbies have become so extreme as I'm the only one that now participates in them. Anyone can go drinking and dancing. It's inclusive like that.
> If someone were to show me one of these shirts, and be like, "hey, that's you!", I would kinda feel like... you don't really know who I am
Amen to that. I can't actually imagine wearing such a shirt myself, nor can I imagine most other introverts doing so.
Such shirts seem to be entirely designed for extroverts who want to seem edgy and thereby draw attention to themselves.
Amen to that. I can't actually imagine wearing such a shirt myself, nor can I imagine most other introverts doing so.
Such shirts seem to be entirely designed for extroverts who want to seem edgy and thereby draw attention to themselves.
Or introverts who want to be edgy and scare people away.
I would never wear that shirt or any other words on a shirt. Ever. It'd be horrified walking down the street as a walking message of any sort.
It's more or less the reason I'd never put on a custum and walk around, even though this is Oregon. I'd just not feel comfortable as even here most people are gonna look at you when you walk by and soon I'd assume it's ALL people. Then I'd start running, probably, barely making through the door to crack a beer and recover.
I DO NOT like to attract the attention of strangers as it's intrusive on the person doing the looking (hard to avoid walking by). Frankly, when people wear something to get looked at, not a normal saying on their shirt, but something offensive. It's not the words but the intrusion I find offensive. I feel the same about people who talk on their phone in public places or have loud conversations that step on my conversation or quiet.
It's more or less the reason I'd never put on a custum and walk around, even though this is Oregon. I'd just not feel comfortable as even here most people are gonna look at you when you walk by and soon I'd assume it's ALL people. Then I'd start running, probably, barely making through the door to crack a beer and recover.
I DO NOT like to attract the attention of strangers as it's intrusive on the person doing the looking (hard to avoid walking by). Frankly, when people wear something to get looked at, not a normal saying on their shirt, but something offensive. It's not the words but the intrusion I find offensive. I feel the same about people who talk on their phone in public places or have loud conversations that step on my conversation or quiet.
It seems that you're really afraid of socializing. Think of it this way, when you are in your death bed, waiting for the die(), none of these constraints you put yourself through would matter, won't even matter if you weared the shirt. But the way I see it, there are two possible outcomes in these kind of situations where you hesitate to do something for whatever reason :either you do it or you don't, in the future it won't matter what outcome you chosed, so I'll get the doing, because it will probably be another story to tell.
Yes, you're absolutely right. I can even understand that intellectually. Doesn't help, unfortunately.
Though if I got in the habit of wearing a crazy costume and did other crazy stuff like leaving the house, all my hang-ups would work themselves out.
Though if I got in the habit of wearing a crazy costume and did other crazy stuff like leaving the house, all my hang-ups would work themselves out.
I understand, because I've felt at times the same way you do, so I figured what I said above in order to "hack my brain". Doesn't matter what if I say to you the absolute truth, I think the real change comes from within.
The first step is always the hardest, but after you take it, surprinsingly and for your joy, everything will fall into place.
I don't know if this happens to you, but I was always wondering what would people think of me in certain situations, for example talking on my phone in public (where everybody can hear what I say), or wearing a sight-seeker shirt or something along those lines. That really hold me down to do things. So I also figured, most people don't give a shit, and if they comment about it, 10 min later they would have already forgotten. And of top of that, chances are you'll never see them again in your lifetime. That helped me destroy these irrational thoughts I don't even know where the hell I got them on the first place.
The first step is always the hardest, but after you take it, surprinsingly and for your joy, everything will fall into place.
I don't know if this happens to you, but I was always wondering what would people think of me in certain situations, for example talking on my phone in public (where everybody can hear what I say), or wearing a sight-seeker shirt or something along those lines. That really hold me down to do things. So I also figured, most people don't give a shit, and if they comment about it, 10 min later they would have already forgotten. And of top of that, chances are you'll never see them again in your lifetime. That helped me destroy these irrational thoughts I don't even know where the hell I got them on the first place.
I have very little anxiety about doing or wearing something embarrassing in public. The vast majority are strangers I'll never see again. I won't remember them and they won't remember me. And even if they do remember me, I don't care at all, because I can't be confronted with that in the future.
But I have a ton of anxiety about doing or wearing something embarrassing in front of people I have to work with or talk to on a daily basis.
So, for the most part I keep my mouth shut unless spoken to, and just try to copy what other people wear. That way I'm mostly known as the quiet or shy person rather than the bizarre, awkward fellow. Inevitably I'll eventually acquire all of those labels if someone is around me enough, but at least I can make "quiet" outweigh "bizarre" nine times out of ten.
But I have a ton of anxiety about doing or wearing something embarrassing in front of people I have to work with or talk to on a daily basis.
So, for the most part I keep my mouth shut unless spoken to, and just try to copy what other people wear. That way I'm mostly known as the quiet or shy person rather than the bizarre, awkward fellow. Inevitably I'll eventually acquire all of those labels if someone is around me enough, but at least I can make "quiet" outweigh "bizarre" nine times out of ten.
It's more like if you're noticed by a stranger approving or disapproving, it's forgotten in seconds most likely, never making it into to storage even.
What the heck, I was trying to google disapproving (spelling) and got disapproving cat. Is that a thing? Never mind, off topic.
My point, you're right.
What the heck, I was trying to google disapproving (spelling) and got disapproving cat. Is that a thing? Never mind, off topic.
My point, you're right.
I can always get a life later is my philosophy. I've got more interesting stuff to work on now or play with now. Yeah, Ok.
I'd wear this shirt to the gym or work, but not a social gathering. Imagine wearing it to a birthday? That would be extremely rude.
That shirt isn't like an attention grabbing so yes ok for the street but not ok for a birthday party for your neighbor's kid that you agreed to attend for some reason.
I am currently writing this sitting in a small motel room very close to downtown vegas and am very alone.
I am back on heroin. I write this not for shock factor because, frankly, I don't give a shit about how anyone feels about it.
I write this as a warning to those wise enough to hear, about how being introverted can easily lead to a lonely, fairly miserable life as you grow older.
My excuse was always the same as I hear here...I'm not interested in shallow conversation or discussing things with people whom seem to have almost complete misunderstandings of the basics of things etc etc.
I am 51yo, my birthday was last week..2 people texted me happy birthday and I spent the day alone, as none of my local junkie friends bothered to invite me to do anything. Yeah, big surprise I know can you believe it?
I spent almost 35 years of my life, starting at age 15, playing in bands and was always surrounded by fellow musicians and all the various bar archetypes.
Coding came super easy to me and it allowed me to earn very good money while living a lifestyle that had all the trappings of a happy, extroverted kinda life, and I enjoyed it immensely. I felt (and still do) incredibly blessed by the genetic gods to be born at such a time where society valued my native aptitude...I am sure there were periods where it wouldn't have been such a blessing.
Looking back, I see how I was drawn to and used drugs and music as tools to overcome my introvertness, and you know what? They worked very well. But, as they say, what happens when the song ends and the dope runs out?
But this is my dilemma and where it gets nutso...I wonder just how much we truly control the decisions our brain and subconscious make for us. Looking back, I have serious doubts that even if someone had shown me of picture of my bleak life right now, that I would have somehow been able to make different decisions.
Even now, knowing how I should act to prevent this level of isolation, I am unable to do those things consistently enough to make them work and have all but giving up trying.
So yeah..introverted, rude, selfish, disconnected for sure. But also, passionate, informed, and sensitive as well.
That's life I guess.
I am back on heroin. I write this not for shock factor because, frankly, I don't give a shit about how anyone feels about it.
I write this as a warning to those wise enough to hear, about how being introverted can easily lead to a lonely, fairly miserable life as you grow older.
My excuse was always the same as I hear here...I'm not interested in shallow conversation or discussing things with people whom seem to have almost complete misunderstandings of the basics of things etc etc.
I am 51yo, my birthday was last week..2 people texted me happy birthday and I spent the day alone, as none of my local junkie friends bothered to invite me to do anything. Yeah, big surprise I know can you believe it?
I spent almost 35 years of my life, starting at age 15, playing in bands and was always surrounded by fellow musicians and all the various bar archetypes.
Coding came super easy to me and it allowed me to earn very good money while living a lifestyle that had all the trappings of a happy, extroverted kinda life, and I enjoyed it immensely. I felt (and still do) incredibly blessed by the genetic gods to be born at such a time where society valued my native aptitude...I am sure there were periods where it wouldn't have been such a blessing.
Looking back, I see how I was drawn to and used drugs and music as tools to overcome my introvertness, and you know what? They worked very well. But, as they say, what happens when the song ends and the dope runs out?
But this is my dilemma and where it gets nutso...I wonder just how much we truly control the decisions our brain and subconscious make for us. Looking back, I have serious doubts that even if someone had shown me of picture of my bleak life right now, that I would have somehow been able to make different decisions.
Even now, knowing how I should act to prevent this level of isolation, I am unable to do those things consistently enough to make them work and have all but giving up trying.
So yeah..introverted, rude, selfish, disconnected for sure. But also, passionate, informed, and sensitive as well.
That's life I guess.
I'll be in Vegas Monday. Let me know if you want to meet up for Thai food? I realize it's not a likely desire of an introvert, but it might be good to get out and have a chat with someone semiobjective.
There are some very thoughtful comments in response to the parent, and I'm not degrading them. I just want to say in addition to an upvote that yours is more than just thoughtful. Thank you.
Just so you don't think I'm a total flake...I tried 3 different "temp email" services and while i got them working, it seemed difficult to be able to log back into them once you create them and one of them only lasted for a few hours or something...so if I missed your reply (if you did reply) its not me being rude or an ass, its just that those email things didn't work quite as i expected them to work...
LOL..i have to chuckle somewhat at the typical experience that this sort of thing is for my life and the irony of it :) Thanks for the offer anyway...it just doesn't seem like its meant to be or whatever and i of course do not want to give out any identifying information.
LOL..i have to chuckle somewhat at the typical experience that this sort of thing is for my life and the irony of it :) Thanks for the offer anyway...it just doesn't seem like its meant to be or whatever and i of course do not want to give out any identifying information.
No worries on missing me. I'll be back that way soon if you want to catch up. Alot of those new smaller email services can be flakey and hard to use so I certainly understand.
Fair enough, I'm on my way to Table Thai on sunset corporate now, if you want to join at 7 PM, I will be there until 730 at least.
If your absolutely sure u want to do it and it wasn't just
"it seemed like a good idea at the time", send me an email to [email protected] because...what do i have to lose?
Good luck. You sound despondent ... it used to work, but now escapism isn't delivering, and you are afraid where this will lead. Often a change of environment/scenery is the best way to get yourself out of a rut.
H-brain will throw up fear of withdrawl, but you can always get on a shorter plane ride and check straight in to a clinic in some town on the other side of the country, get some methadone and taper off... just try not to make new junkie friends.
Good luck.
http://www.methadone.us/methadone-clinics/ http://www.opiateaddictionresource.com/treatment/methadone_c... http://methadoneclinic.com/how-to-find-free-methadone-clinic...
H-brain will throw up fear of withdrawl, but you can always get on a shorter plane ride and check straight in to a clinic in some town on the other side of the country, get some methadone and taper off... just try not to make new junkie friends.
Good luck.
http://www.methadone.us/methadone-clinics/ http://www.opiateaddictionresource.com/treatment/methadone_c... http://methadoneclinic.com/how-to-find-free-methadone-clinic...
You seem to think these traits are fixed. They are not. I'm currently reading "The Pursuit of Perfect" by Tal Ben-Shahar, give this one a go, it'll free you of your blame, shame and beliefs.
This extrovert/introvert label is used in ways it shouldn't. Two kinds of people hide behind being an introvert: assholes and people afraid of other people, often a mixture of both. Both groups alienate people with their behaviors and thus are lonely, sometimes angry about it, which worsens both traits. They don't want to be, making contact with people exhausting. Instead of addressing the real problem, they get isolated even more or, like you, externalize getting happiness, which I bet Heroin is very good at consistently delivering.
Again: these traits are not fixed. If you think of yourself as unlikable, you will be. If you think people are all stupid (way to generalize), you will alienate other people. If you think other people are dangerous, which you might have had to learn early in your life, you will behave in a way that other people don't find pleasurable and won't choose to be around you. It's painful to think about, so people just say they're introverted.
You can accept that & change, or you can stay where you are. I myself decided to stay in this social coma for 20 years, really angry about it too, being even harder on myself & others. Didn't help. Now people (voluntarily!) call me.
This extrovert/introvert label is used in ways it shouldn't. Two kinds of people hide behind being an introvert: assholes and people afraid of other people, often a mixture of both. Both groups alienate people with their behaviors and thus are lonely, sometimes angry about it, which worsens both traits. They don't want to be, making contact with people exhausting. Instead of addressing the real problem, they get isolated even more or, like you, externalize getting happiness, which I bet Heroin is very good at consistently delivering.
Again: these traits are not fixed. If you think of yourself as unlikable, you will be. If you think people are all stupid (way to generalize), you will alienate other people. If you think other people are dangerous, which you might have had to learn early in your life, you will behave in a way that other people don't find pleasurable and won't choose to be around you. It's painful to think about, so people just say they're introverted.
You can accept that & change, or you can stay where you are. I myself decided to stay in this social coma for 20 years, really angry about it too, being even harder on myself & others. Didn't help. Now people (voluntarily!) call me.
>Two kinds of people hide behind being an introvert: assholes and people afraid of other people, often a mixture of both.
False dichotomy. I love hanging out with people, and get on with a lot of people really well, but I need alone time in between or it becomes a hellish experience. Kind of like how I love being awake, but if I don't sleep regularly then being awake is really horrible.
Then again, extroverts who don't understand this probably think I'm an aloof asshole for not wanting to socialise with strangers all the time.
False dichotomy. I love hanging out with people, and get on with a lot of people really well, but I need alone time in between or it becomes a hellish experience. Kind of like how I love being awake, but if I don't sleep regularly then being awake is really horrible.
Then again, extroverts who don't understand this probably think I'm an aloof asshole for not wanting to socialise with strangers all the time.
Then you're an actual introvert! Nothing wrong with that! I should have been clearer: There are introverts and then the aforementioned two kinds of people hiding behind the label.
> This extrovert/introvert label is used in ways it shouldn't. Two kinds of people hide behind being an introvert: assholes and people afraid of other people, often a mixture of both
That leaves out the sizable kind of people who actually are introverts. It strikes me as rather dangerous to take what seems to be a pretty simple observation - people occupy a spectrum from 'enjoying little to no social contact' to 'does not enjoy being alone at all' and we call this introversion/extraversion - and basically arguing that one of the end of the spectrum is 'wrong' and can be fixed. Not to mention the fact that most actual research on the matter seems to indicate that introversion is, at least to some significant degree, innate, and at the very least can be distinguished at such an early age that it might as well be innate.
Honestly, it's not so different in my mind from believing gay people are gay because <insert some self-serving theory> instead of accepting that in lieu of full understand, we should maybe just assume they are actually gay.
Or Christians insisting that non-believers are in denial and even actively rejecting 'the Truth', actively unhappy, and that they have gaping God-shaped hole inside of them.
Or, for that matter, Christians insisting that other Christians are not happy or doing well because they don't have enough faith, are not trying hard enough, or because 'there must be some kind of sin in their life'.
The danger of such statements is that they have massive impact on the group your judging, and that they ultimately can never be fully refuted. What makes it worse is that, in my experience, most 'outliers' - whether gay, autistic, clinically depressed, etc. - already live with a permanent suspicion that they're just not trying hard enough and making excuses.
EDIT: to be clear, I do agree that any of these labels can be used as an excuse, and nothing is 100% fixed. So in context you might be right. I just feel it's important to note that there are many people who are truly introverted, and they should not feel bad or wrong about that.
That leaves out the sizable kind of people who actually are introverts. It strikes me as rather dangerous to take what seems to be a pretty simple observation - people occupy a spectrum from 'enjoying little to no social contact' to 'does not enjoy being alone at all' and we call this introversion/extraversion - and basically arguing that one of the end of the spectrum is 'wrong' and can be fixed. Not to mention the fact that most actual research on the matter seems to indicate that introversion is, at least to some significant degree, innate, and at the very least can be distinguished at such an early age that it might as well be innate.
Honestly, it's not so different in my mind from believing gay people are gay because <insert some self-serving theory> instead of accepting that in lieu of full understand, we should maybe just assume they are actually gay.
Or Christians insisting that non-believers are in denial and even actively rejecting 'the Truth', actively unhappy, and that they have gaping God-shaped hole inside of them.
Or, for that matter, Christians insisting that other Christians are not happy or doing well because they don't have enough faith, are not trying hard enough, or because 'there must be some kind of sin in their life'.
The danger of such statements is that they have massive impact on the group your judging, and that they ultimately can never be fully refuted. What makes it worse is that, in my experience, most 'outliers' - whether gay, autistic, clinically depressed, etc. - already live with a permanent suspicion that they're just not trying hard enough and making excuses.
EDIT: to be clear, I do agree that any of these labels can be used as an excuse, and nothing is 100% fixed. So in context you might be right. I just feel it's important to note that there are many people who are truly introverted, and they should not feel bad or wrong about that.
You're right. I think actual introverts wouldn't feel so negative about it.
[deleted]
Hope things improve. I can relate to a lot of what you are saying. Guessing you're probably at desert manor or siegel suites. For whatever it's worth, I'm younger and you really have got me thinking about a lot of the choices I've made and who I am as a person.
Happy Birthday for last week.
It's really tough to dig yourself out of a state where you feel depressed, disconnected from society, and I'd guess unwanted. I hope you can though, it sounds like you have a lot to offer.
It's really tough to dig yourself out of a state where you feel depressed, disconnected from society, and I'd guess unwanted. I hope you can though, it sounds like you have a lot to offer.
I don't really know what to say because I haven't ever dealt with heroin addiction. But it sounds like you want to turn things even though you know that you are unlikely to change as a person at this point, isn't that enough to take a step in a different direction? Into a different social circle?
You also seem very self-aware which helps in most every social encounter.
You also seem very self-aware which helps in most every social encounter.
There are two takeaways from modern neurology which are opposite and surprising.
One is along the lines of what you say, a truly shocking amount of what you might think is free conscious will is actually just machinery deterministically reacting to stimuli. Conversely, it's surprising how plastic that machinery is, it can be formed and reshaped to be wholly different through conscious thought and action.
There's a lot of unscientific woo about what you should do with food to make you healthy and most of it is baseless chatter, but there's pretty strong evidence that there _is_ something there even if we're not sure how to control it. Not just food though... exercise, light, meditation, the people you are around, the smell of the air, and a million other things all have influence over that machinery and manipulating them can manipulate you.
One is along the lines of what you say, a truly shocking amount of what you might think is free conscious will is actually just machinery deterministically reacting to stimuli. Conversely, it's surprising how plastic that machinery is, it can be formed and reshaped to be wholly different through conscious thought and action.
There's a lot of unscientific woo about what you should do with food to make you healthy and most of it is baseless chatter, but there's pretty strong evidence that there _is_ something there even if we're not sure how to control it. Not just food though... exercise, light, meditation, the people you are around, the smell of the air, and a million other things all have influence over that machinery and manipulating them can manipulate you.
I know exactly how you feel. I fell into the same trap with heroin, and now, as you point out, it controls everything. But, again, it wasn't a bit-flip from normal to junkie, it was a slow process, then one day I realised that yes, the bit had flipped, and there was nothing I could have (easily) done about it, except to have led an entirely different life and been a different person. And that's the problem. After twenty years of heroin addiction, it defines you, in a way that makes it hard to give up. Rationally, of course, you know you should; but the habits become so ingrained that it can be hard to see how to change. The only time I managed to quit for longer than a few weeks was when I had a naloxone implant surgically inserted that made it physically impossible for opiates to work. Six months later, when it stopped working, I was back on the drugs, just to see if it was OK to try it, and within a week - blam! - addicted again... I know this sounds depressing, but I do feel there is scope to get out. But, if you are introverted like me, then heroin will have increased and strengthened that bubble around you, making a barrier between you and anyone else. It's hard to form close friendships at work when you have to lie all the time about a huge part of your life, your drug habit, and the isolation feeds back into more heroin use when you're alone, as a vicious cycle. So, quitting on its own is never going to work. You must (and this is what I am trying to do) replace the drug with something else, a hobby, some form of socialising, and work hard to make that a part of you, a part of your life, instead of the drug. And that also means cutting off your junkie friends, starting fresh, which when you're in your forties or fifties is no easy task - by now we've made most of the friends we'll ever have, and starting again is difficult. So, sorry I don't have any good or easy answers for you; but I wish you good luck going forward, and I definitely share the pain, and know how hard it will be. Take care!
I have found that the best way to get out of states like that, is force yourself into situations you like and that make you be social because of its inherited nature i.e. Get into a salsa dancing academy, get into a french course, or whatever similar thing you might like. Be so busy your mind has no time to think about addiction.
Belated happy birthday man.
Curious to chat if you'd like - life, shit, wisdom, pain. Hit me [email protected]
Happy Birthday!
On the other hand it might just be your addiction talking.
Hang in there. I'm kinda in the same boat. I think bupenorpine did help me. I wish it was easier to get. I can say this, I believe it helped me with my drinking, and I'm on genetic bupenorpine, not the Suboxone(has nalaxone).
As to friends--I am very lonely. I think I'm friendly, but don't have friends. Part of my problem is I made friends with people much older than myself, and they die, and I am not a extrovert. It seems like all my friends were extroverts. When I was younger, it seemed easier to remain friends with exes, but as I've aged, they moved on, or as one told me, women can't be friends after a certain point in a relationship. If I knew that, I wish I didn't push for intimacy. I look back, and I miss the friend I made in that relationship more than anything else.
I haven't wanted to wake up in years, but I'm still here. Just when I think I've had enough of it, I have days where I feel o.k., not o.k. like in my twenties, but not suicidial.
I know exercise has been mentioned here too much, but light walks have really helped me. I do need to do them daily.
I really don't have any advice, other than hang in there. I do know we are not alone. I wish it was easier for men to find friends.
As to friends--I am very lonely. I think I'm friendly, but don't have friends. Part of my problem is I made friends with people much older than myself, and they die, and I am not a extrovert. It seems like all my friends were extroverts. When I was younger, it seemed easier to remain friends with exes, but as I've aged, they moved on, or as one told me, women can't be friends after a certain point in a relationship. If I knew that, I wish I didn't push for intimacy. I look back, and I miss the friend I made in that relationship more than anything else.
I haven't wanted to wake up in years, but I'm still here. Just when I think I've had enough of it, I have days where I feel o.k., not o.k. like in my twenties, but not suicidial.
I know exercise has been mentioned here too much, but light walks have really helped me. I do need to do them daily.
I really don't have any advice, other than hang in there. I do know we are not alone. I wish it was easier for men to find friends.
Sunlight and exercise helps me a lot, but when I am at my worse (heading in that direction now..) maintaining these good habits (also regularly eating, eating nutritious food, taking pride in my appearance/home) just evaporate.
I live in a major metro area and can't think of food worth leaving the house for when I used to be so into trying new places and love ethnic cuisine. Guess it's depression?
I live in a major metro area and can't think of food worth leaving the house for when I used to be so into trying new places and love ethnic cuisine. Guess it's depression?
Everyone is miserable.
Everyone is alone.
Everyone escapes.
But giving up is a fate worse than death in my eyes.
I'm roughly half your age, but I understand, I get it. But don't give up hope.
You can still change, no matter how deep into the darkness you are. You can still be happy. It just takes small steps; the first is to substitute heroin with something less addictive and harmful. It will be difficult, an almost impossible task, but if you have the will to do so, you can. You're cognizant of the fact that you have a problem, so you're already half of the way there.
I'm roughly half your age, but I understand, I get it. But don't give up hope.
You can still change, no matter how deep into the darkness you are. You can still be happy. It just takes small steps; the first is to substitute heroin with something less addictive and harmful. It will be difficult, an almost impossible task, but if you have the will to do so, you can. You're cognizant of the fact that you have a problem, so you're already half of the way there.
I disagree re: willpower. I've seen serious junkies hit rock bottom over and over. Go to jail, be homeless, get beat up. And in jail they might talk about getting clean and I think even mean it, but the she gets out and OD's the next day. The brain chemistry is a powerful thing, something society needs to come to terms with -- that for some with addiction, medical, chemical intervention is needed. Having strong willpower to me is like saying someone has a pure soul a hundred years ago. I just don't see the value in the statement.
Every social interaction is a kind of investment. At work it's to advance your career or just remain employed. And there are few professions where you really don't have to communicate with anyone at all and can still make a living. Even introverts need to gain enough skill (chutzpah?) to communicate with their colleagues.
Socially, it's another matter entirely. There are obligatory communications that you really can't reasonably dodge, like planning family Holidays, or finding a friend to join you to a concert, or calling around to get a decent price on a set of tires.
Then there are the real small-talk situations. Standing in line at the coffee shop, sitting with another parent you've never met waiting for your turn at the parent teach conference, the bored bartender while you're trying to relax the last evening of a business trip... These opportunities have different payoffs that really depend only to you. If you're an extrovert, a conversation with a stranger may be invigorating. And yes, you might learn something valuable, or offer some advice that genuinely helps a stranger. For me, there is simply no payoff. The investment of awkwardness versus the comfort of remaining withdrawn is just not worth it. Once in a while, I might be in a particularly good mood and actually strike up a conversation. But that is a rare moment for me, and I usually end the conversation thinking that the last thing I said for sure came across as weird and they had no clue what I meant... So usually, I want to remain in thought, or distracted by some type of entertainment or doing something that I deem to be productive. Thank God for my iPhone.
I'll satisfy my obligations to society in other ways.
Socially, it's another matter entirely. There are obligatory communications that you really can't reasonably dodge, like planning family Holidays, or finding a friend to join you to a concert, or calling around to get a decent price on a set of tires.
Then there are the real small-talk situations. Standing in line at the coffee shop, sitting with another parent you've never met waiting for your turn at the parent teach conference, the bored bartender while you're trying to relax the last evening of a business trip... These opportunities have different payoffs that really depend only to you. If you're an extrovert, a conversation with a stranger may be invigorating. And yes, you might learn something valuable, or offer some advice that genuinely helps a stranger. For me, there is simply no payoff. The investment of awkwardness versus the comfort of remaining withdrawn is just not worth it. Once in a while, I might be in a particularly good mood and actually strike up a conversation. But that is a rare moment for me, and I usually end the conversation thinking that the last thing I said for sure came across as weird and they had no clue what I meant... So usually, I want to remain in thought, or distracted by some type of entertainment or doing something that I deem to be productive. Thank God for my iPhone.
I'll satisfy my obligations to society in other ways.
How do you reconcile "Every social interaction is a kind of investment" with "I might be in a particularly good mood and actually strike up a conversation"?
Does being in a good mood mean that you will get more upside to the "investment" of small talk? Are you being optimistic that the conversation will be productive (i.e. "maybe I'll learn something interesting or make an important connection"), or does the act of engaging in small talk yield its own reward, dependent on being in the right mood?
Does being in a good mood mean that you will get more upside to the "investment" of small talk? Are you being optimistic that the conversation will be productive (i.e. "maybe I'll learn something interesting or make an important connection"), or does the act of engaging in small talk yield its own reward, dependent on being in the right mood?
> How do you reconcile "Every social interaction is a kind of investment" with "I might be in a particularly good mood and actually strike up a conversation"?
The price to buy in is less when you're in a good mood.
The price to buy in is less when you're in a good mood.
Absolutely true. I tend to attract good energy when I put out good energy. The inverse, too. It's palpable. If I walked around always in the space of my lowest band, I'd see the world and people as pretty bad.
Once in a while, something really good happens and I have no one to tell about it. In those cases, some typically dormant circuit in my personality lights up and I want to talk. So I'll start the small talk off, but look for an opening to talk about my experience.
Perhaps the investment cost is less.
Are you saying it's socially "obligatory" to not go to concerts alone? I've done that a few times, and I don't think anyone notices or cares, and if they do, so what?
Absolutely, go to concerts alone. It harms nobody. If you go to the concert and made a point of standing facing the crowd glaring with your arms folded, that's harm. Obviously, you're there to have some fun or at least enjoy some good music.
I'm an introvert. I've gone to Disneyland alone, for God's sake. And I'm pretty sure that people who saw me there alone thought I was weird.
It was definitely a so what situation.
It was definitely a so what situation.
Generally people don't look twice at you. Unless you were dressed weird or something, they probably didn't try to determine whether you were there with someone or not, because it's too high a cognitive load to apply for everyone you see at Disneyland.
Or, in gaming speak: You're at the center of your minimap, but not at anyone else's.
Or, in gaming speak: You're at the center of your minimap, but not at anyone else's.
This is a hard one for many, many people. Most people don't give a fuck because they have enough to deal with in their own life without thinking about yours all the time, too. It's an illusion that anyone is evaluating whether you came to the show with someone or not.
I could dress as mickey mouse every day because it'd be somewhat anonymous, at least at first, until that become my identity. Hey Mickey, what's up.
I'm pretty sure no one noticed you at all. It's like that spaghetti stain on your shirt, you can see it a mile away in a mirror but nobody gives a shit about it.
I agree, yes, I think we are obligated to be nice to strangers in public. Fuck those people who bring their bad energy into a coffee shop.
Equally bad is being overly familiar with someone you don't know.
Agreed. I've made that mistake before and others have made it with me. It's not respecting boundaries. I'm a little too curious sometimes asking personal questions or otherwise crossing boundaries. Respect personal boundaries. It's the least you can do.
> Even introverts need to gain enough skill (chutzpah?) to communicate with their colleagues.
We have enough of these skills, thank you very much. We just don't like talking about nothing for three hours and we don't like forcing intimate details of our lives into somebody else's throat. If we have nothing to say, we stay silent.
We have enough of these skills, thank you very much. We just don't like talking about nothing for three hours and we don't like forcing intimate details of our lives into somebody else's throat. If we have nothing to say, we stay silent.
That's a very transactional view of other people if you're saying it's investment with expectation of return? If you mean it's literally an investment as in energy and time.
Is it really all about payoffs? It may be true. It just seems sad. I'd rather lie to myself that it's not that.
Is it really all about payoffs? It may be true. It just seems sad. I'd rather lie to myself that it's not that.
You get a payoff for everything you do, whether you know it or not. It feels really good to help my kids and see them do well. It feels good to help a coworker find a bug that's been dogging them. I feel self-satisfied after getting a thank you for holding a door open for someone. Those positive feelings are all payoffs for my behavior.
But I feel awkward trying to talk to a stranger. No payoff. So I generally don't do it.
But I feel awkward trying to talk to a stranger. No payoff. So I generally don't do it.
Fair enough. It sounds selfish as in I have a son and I'd like to think I don't help him for a payoff but I could be delusional. Or it could be the two things don't contradict each other. Let's say you randomly pay for someone's coffee at a coffee shop and they say what the fuck's your problem? Stalker.
No, they smile warmly and thank you. You share a laugh. You made their day, they made yours. It's not zero sum. Nobody lost anything. Well, except you, some cash.
I forgot to ask do you ever feel good energy from a stranger and have this amazing interaction even if it lasts 3 minutes? It does happen. I'd hazard to say that the sum total of little interactions and individual energy projection is the gestalt of a place and time. Even a room has a vibe we've all felt. You can tell if a room feels tense, a sidewalk is full of anxious people, that was love I just felt. I'm sure there's a better word for this than gestalt, btw.
No, they smile warmly and thank you. You share a laugh. You made their day, they made yours. It's not zero sum. Nobody lost anything. Well, except you, some cash.
I forgot to ask do you ever feel good energy from a stranger and have this amazing interaction even if it lasts 3 minutes? It does happen. I'd hazard to say that the sum total of little interactions and individual energy projection is the gestalt of a place and time. Even a room has a vibe we've all felt. You can tell if a room feels tense, a sidewalk is full of anxious people, that was love I just felt. I'm sure there's a better word for this than gestalt, btw.
do you ever feel good energy from a stranger and have this amazing interaction even if it lasts 3 minutes?
I thought for a while to recall, and, well, not really. There have been circumstances where some external situation affected both me and a stranger in some way and we mutually complained or otherwise acknowledged it. It was a connection based on a shared experience, rather than being all that random. Maybe that counts. But you have to be open in order for those more serendipitous instant connections to happen that you enjoy, and I'm just not open. It's an attribute of my Aspergers-induced introversion, I think.
I thought for a while to recall, and, well, not really. There have been circumstances where some external situation affected both me and a stranger in some way and we mutually complained or otherwise acknowledged it. It was a connection based on a shared experience, rather than being all that random. Maybe that counts. But you have to be open in order for those more serendipitous instant connections to happen that you enjoy, and I'm just not open. It's an attribute of my Aspergers-induced introversion, I think.
Ah, well, impressive level of self awareness. I exaggerated a bit too much that I overdid my point. The 3 minutes example is extremely rare and it's not acceptable to ask someone to trade their personal boundaries for a free cup of coffee.
But I'd say we all could put out just a little bit better energy than we do, just a bit, with some effort, maybe it even becomes easier over time. For example, I make a concerted effort to make eye contact and smile at the check out line person no matter how I feel. It seems like a small thing but acknowledging people who pass in and out of our field in any given day, with head up eye level, is where the action is. I try to see people when I'm out and about.
But I'd say we all could put out just a little bit better energy than we do, just a bit, with some effort, maybe it even becomes easier over time. For example, I make a concerted effort to make eye contact and smile at the check out line person no matter how I feel. It seems like a small thing but acknowledging people who pass in and out of our field in any given day, with head up eye level, is where the action is. I try to see people when I'm out and about.
I'll grant you this: There are parts of the US where I've found it much easier to be heads-up friendly than others. It seems to be in the demeanor of the general population, and smaller, more out of the way places seem to be more friendly, in general.
I'm really flying by the seat of my pants on this one, but perhaps it has to do with the variety of people you meet on a given day. The less variety, the more likely the people you meet are like you and the more comfortable you could be in engaging them. A large variety, and you just can't be sure what you're going to get, and the risk that it's a cold shoulder is too high.
I'm really flying by the seat of my pants on this one, but perhaps it has to do with the variety of people you meet on a given day. The less variety, the more likely the people you meet are like you and the more comfortable you could be in engaging them. A large variety, and you just can't be sure what you're going to get, and the risk that it's a cold shoulder is too high.
I'm not even talking about striking up a conversation or even saying hi to everyone you pass. :-)
More like be there in that moment when an opportunity arises and try to project more good energy into the routine interactions. There's a payoff for that that. It feels good even if it only works sometimes.
It's easier said then done as I'm always tempted to look down, passing through. I practice, fail, fail again then maybe get into the groove better the next day. No big deal. Fail isn't quite the right word as there's no real cost for trying to be a source of good energy even if a lot of people aren't trying.
More like be there in that moment when an opportunity arises and try to project more good energy into the routine interactions. There's a payoff for that that. It feels good even if it only works sometimes.
It's easier said then done as I'm always tempted to look down, passing through. I practice, fail, fail again then maybe get into the groove better the next day. No big deal. Fail isn't quite the right word as there's no real cost for trying to be a source of good energy even if a lot of people aren't trying.
One more important thing about this is that good energy tends to draw good energy. So you might notice that the world seems like a better place because better things happen on days when you put good energy out. The difference is palpable.
It's the obvious things such as I'm less likely to experience rudeness from others but some far less obvious changes that seem out of reach of my energy, such as I'm less likely to be cut off in traffic type of bad experience. I'm not sure what if understanding how this process works even matters. It just works consistently.
It's the obvious things such as I'm less likely to experience rudeness from others but some far less obvious changes that seem out of reach of my energy, such as I'm less likely to be cut off in traffic type of bad experience. I'm not sure what if understanding how this process works even matters. It just works consistently.
"The more we isolate ourselves from new people, the more isolated and segregated our society is likely to become."
So this is the only sentence approaching a real argument in the article. And it's not entirely unreasonable, but the author goes straight to words like "antisocial", "rude", "self-indulgent", and "selfish" to describe the act of skipping large gatherings.
I'm just not entirely convinced that introverts are likely to cause the downfall of civilization. Even in the pathological cases of truly isolated individuals, they're really only harming themselves.
So this is the only sentence approaching a real argument in the article. And it's not entirely unreasonable, but the author goes straight to words like "antisocial", "rude", "self-indulgent", and "selfish" to describe the act of skipping large gatherings.
I'm just not entirely convinced that introverts are likely to cause the downfall of civilization. Even in the pathological cases of truly isolated individuals, they're really only harming themselves.
I go to a bar. Several times a week. Most of the time, it's not very fun. Occasionally, I'll hit upon the right combination of mood and inebriation and I'll have a great time. I'm loud, witty, entertaining. Occasionally I'll run into somebody who can entertain the kind of deep, one-on-one conversations I need to have.
But when I'm not doing either of those things, which is most of the time I'm there, I'm drinking, by myself, at the bar, while everybody else there, most of whom I've known for years, has the kind of group interaction that I simply can't be bothered to participate in.
I have introverted friends that have no problem participating in the group! But I simply can't. It's not that I haven't tried. It's that, even after 6 years of going to that bar, and being friendly with all, some more than others, I'm still not comfortable with group interaction. My mind wanders, I end up pulling away slightly. After a minute it just seems easier to go back to my spot at the bar.
If the conversation is actually interesting to me, then I can participate, at least until it shifts to something I could care less about. I thought about trying to care more, but if I start going against my nature, I get drained and want to go home. If I do that too often I start to wonder why I even go there at all. The way I do it, I'm comfortable. I can spend several hours there a few times a week.
Introversion is real. I work to overcome my limitations, but it seems that any success I find is a result of finding workarounds, not actually fixing the problems, if there is indeed any.
My next big push against my introversion will be having small, private dinners at my home with people I care the most for. Perhaps I can get over my group aversion by amping up the comfort level an order of magnitude.
But when I'm not doing either of those things, which is most of the time I'm there, I'm drinking, by myself, at the bar, while everybody else there, most of whom I've known for years, has the kind of group interaction that I simply can't be bothered to participate in.
I have introverted friends that have no problem participating in the group! But I simply can't. It's not that I haven't tried. It's that, even after 6 years of going to that bar, and being friendly with all, some more than others, I'm still not comfortable with group interaction. My mind wanders, I end up pulling away slightly. After a minute it just seems easier to go back to my spot at the bar.
If the conversation is actually interesting to me, then I can participate, at least until it shifts to something I could care less about. I thought about trying to care more, but if I start going against my nature, I get drained and want to go home. If I do that too often I start to wonder why I even go there at all. The way I do it, I'm comfortable. I can spend several hours there a few times a week.
Introversion is real. I work to overcome my limitations, but it seems that any success I find is a result of finding workarounds, not actually fixing the problems, if there is indeed any.
My next big push against my introversion will be having small, private dinners at my home with people I care the most for. Perhaps I can get over my group aversion by amping up the comfort level an order of magnitude.
> But I simply can't. It's not that I haven't tried. It's that, even after 6 years of going to that bar, and being friendly with all, some more than others, I'm still not comfortable with group interaction. My mind wanders, I end up pulling away slightly. After a minute it just seems easier to go back to my spot at the bar.
Do you find that it matters how many people are in the conversation? For me, once there are 4 or more other people to follow (assuming they're speaking fluidly rather than slowly and deliberately), it seems like my brainpower is completely consumed just following the dynamics of the interaction, and I have almost nothing left over to process my own thoughts on the topic of conversation. I seriously have no idea how people do it.
Do you find that it matters how many people are in the conversation? For me, once there are 4 or more other people to follow (assuming they're speaking fluidly rather than slowly and deliberately), it seems like my brainpower is completely consumed just following the dynamics of the interaction, and I have almost nothing left over to process my own thoughts on the topic of conversation. I seriously have no idea how people do it.
Group conversations are usually shallow, because every person in the group must understand the conversation.
No wonder that you do not like typical group conversation. You simply prefer deep conversations. There is nothing wrong with that and there little need to push yourself for group conversations.
No wonder that you do not like typical group conversation. You simply prefer deep conversations. There is nothing wrong with that and there little need to push yourself for group conversations.
The bar nights that worked are proof it's possible to get to that place. The last paragraph was the punch line, though. That's an awesome plan as I think it's something that can be improved with practice and learning but nobody starts running with a marathon.
Introversion/extroversion are a scale. There are varying levels of introversion and social anxiety.
I find the label "quiet" rather presumptuous. If I don't say anything it's likely because I think the odds of an interesting conversation are unfavourable. Nothing to do with shyness. Blame yourself for not being interesting, don't blame me for being "quiet."
Also, I don't need to "recharge" by retreating to solitude, I just find lots of partying, drinking type situations incredible banal and would rather do something else. This is just like getting impatient with any other activity, like watching the shopping channel.
Of course usually I don't say this to people. That would just be rude.
Also, I don't need to "recharge" by retreating to solitude, I just find lots of partying, drinking type situations incredible banal and would rather do something else. This is just like getting impatient with any other activity, like watching the shopping channel.
Of course usually I don't say this to people. That would just be rude.
Who said anything about partying and drinking? The author is talking about social gatherings of various sorts. Some social gatherings aren't about having interesting conversation but cultivating or facilitating social contact for some purpose. I don't like bullshit banter or stupid conversation, but your emphasis on what you find interesting with no regard for other needs is revealing and speaks to the author's point.
> Who said anything about partying and drinking?
The author.
The author.
Presumptuous is a great choice of word there and I also agree.
Unfortunately due to extrovert (and pretend-extrovert) majority in the world there's always an undertone of "this is the right way and everyone else is weird" lingering in the society.
If the majority were introvert we would land up with people bragging on their resume about their thoughtful quiet nature rather than "oh so outgoing and BUBBLY!!".
As Tycho said, yes if I don't speak to you don't be so arrogant as to attribute that to my shyness maybe I just don't give a fuck about you. Not saying that that's always the case, but hey leave some room for that possibility.
How about this, what if every time an extroverted talked loudly and excitedly to me I just turn around and tell everyone "Oh don't mind him he's just really desperate and lonely and just wants some attention.".
See? Instead of assuming that that's your nature I can assume that is your flaw and you are unable to shut up.
That's exactly what extroverts do to introverts when they attribute being quiet to being shy or having social anxiety or being "socially awkward" and all these labels.
Unfortunately due to extrovert (and pretend-extrovert) majority in the world there's always an undertone of "this is the right way and everyone else is weird" lingering in the society.
If the majority were introvert we would land up with people bragging on their resume about their thoughtful quiet nature rather than "oh so outgoing and BUBBLY!!".
As Tycho said, yes if I don't speak to you don't be so arrogant as to attribute that to my shyness maybe I just don't give a fuck about you. Not saying that that's always the case, but hey leave some room for that possibility.
How about this, what if every time an extroverted talked loudly and excitedly to me I just turn around and tell everyone "Oh don't mind him he's just really desperate and lonely and just wants some attention.".
See? Instead of assuming that that's your nature I can assume that is your flaw and you are unable to shut up.
That's exactly what extroverts do to introverts when they attribute being quiet to being shy or having social anxiety or being "socially awkward" and all these labels.
è questione di gusti, of course. Your taste. There's no objective measure of interesting.
That said, it's reasonable to say I tend not to like the banal banter of drunk people. It's probably true that the overall drinking culture is banal but banal is an escape for a few hours for a lot of people. You don't have to join them on that one.
That said, it's reasonable to say I tend not to like the banal banter of drunk people. It's probably true that the overall drinking culture is banal but banal is an escape for a few hours for a lot of people. You don't have to join them on that one.
Sounds to me like you're just not a very fun person to be around and that you like to blame your lack of social skills on others.
And you sound like you're not a very fun person to be around, solely because you put someone down based on one comment and want to be self-righteous about social skills. Let me guess, you recently "overcame" social anxiety? Get some perpective. It's not gone forever.
I don't think there's anything suspect about being bored by many conversations. Maybe lots of people are boring to him. Not everyone shares interests.
I don't think there's anything suspect about being bored by many conversations. Maybe lots of people are boring to him. Not everyone shares interests.
No, I never had anything to overcome...
I was snarky because the parent sounds like a typical, anti-social bordering on obnoxious, engineer who thinks he's above everyone else.
I was snarky because the parent sounds like a typical, anti-social bordering on obnoxious, engineer who thinks he's above everyone else.
This article hit a nerve with me.
I'm an introvert. I know that now but for years I wondered why I hated being around people and large gatherings. I figured I was just strange and let myself not attend gatherings and be by myself. I found it easier and more satisfying than having to deal with people.
Now, many years later, I understand that I did myself a disservice. I missed many gatherings that I now wished I had attended. I'm sure I missed many connections that I would have enjoyed.
I understand now it's ok to be an introvert but it's not ok to let it control how you deal with people. Not necessarily because you're somehow being less than cordial to people, believe me most people won't miss you, but because you miss out on life's moments and that is your loss and no one else's. Life is too short to miss them and most will not come by again.
Now, many years later, I understand that I did myself a disservice. I missed many gatherings that I now wished I had attended. I'm sure I missed many connections that I would have enjoyed.
I understand now it's ok to be an introvert but it's not ok to let it control how you deal with people. Not necessarily because you're somehow being less than cordial to people, believe me most people won't miss you, but because you miss out on life's moments and that is your loss and no one else's. Life is too short to miss them and most will not come by again.
Yes, you're never missing out on life's moments. This is a moment. It's not that bad.
But yeah you'll miss a lot of good good moments and opportunities to meet very cool people because you weren't willing to experience discomfort, risk rejection, and weather some boredom and irritation. Just showing up actually is 80% of it. It's true if done consistently there are pretty much guaranteed rewards. It just will suck some of the time and it's easy to then run. Speaking for myself.
But yeah you'll miss a lot of good good moments and opportunities to meet very cool people because you weren't willing to experience discomfort, risk rejection, and weather some boredom and irritation. Just showing up actually is 80% of it. It's true if done consistently there are pretty much guaranteed rewards. It just will suck some of the time and it's easy to then run. Speaking for myself.
So, uh, color me selfish. :) Perhaps this isn't a constructive comment, but I just don't understand these articles that take a long, hard, meandering look at human nature only to arrive at some absolute "truth" like the author's some arbiter of what's right and wrong in the world. Whatever gets eyeballs, I guess.
As an introvert with a fairly active social life, I disagree with the general premise.
I took an "always say 'yes'" approach for awhile. I accepted pretty much every invite I received. Eventually I found myself going out all the time, weekdays and weekends. At least once a week I'd have to schedule two or three events in a single day.
It was exhausting in two ways.
The obvious was that it's a pain to schedule so many things, and the nature of social events means you'll meet more people which is a positive feedback loop for more events.
The other was that my personal growth was being limited. I skipped exercise/sports. I was unable to finish, or sometimes even work on, my personal art/programming projects.
I realized it was a problem, and I no longer feel bad turning down event invites. Whether I am overbooked on events or if I just want to build a clay sculpture, I don't consider it to be selfish. Of course I still like to see my friends, and I still meet new people, but it's definitely not the only part of being a human.
I took an "always say 'yes'" approach for awhile. I accepted pretty much every invite I received. Eventually I found myself going out all the time, weekdays and weekends. At least once a week I'd have to schedule two or three events in a single day.
It was exhausting in two ways.
The obvious was that it's a pain to schedule so many things, and the nature of social events means you'll meet more people which is a positive feedback loop for more events.
The other was that my personal growth was being limited. I skipped exercise/sports. I was unable to finish, or sometimes even work on, my personal art/programming projects.
I realized it was a problem, and I no longer feel bad turning down event invites. Whether I am overbooked on events or if I just want to build a clay sculpture, I don't consider it to be selfish. Of course I still like to see my friends, and I still meet new people, but it's definitely not the only part of being a human.
"In a contest between my manners and my preferences, am I allowing my preferences to win?"
There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't mind the consequences that follow.
There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't mind the consequences that follow.
The funny thing is if you get successful people praise you for sticking to your preference.
It's like a fuck-you card.
People will blame the college kid for not dressing more professionally.
But suddenly if the college kid becomes Zuckerberg/Jobs people will praise him.
"Oh he just always wears [that hoodie/jeans/tshirt/turtleneck]. He's cool and simple and down-to-earth like that not like all these other stupid materialistic people who buy expensive clothes."
It's like a fuck-you card.
People will blame the college kid for not dressing more professionally.
But suddenly if the college kid becomes Zuckerberg/Jobs people will praise him.
"Oh he just always wears [that hoodie/jeans/tshirt/turtleneck]. He's cool and simple and down-to-earth like that not like all these other stupid materialistic people who buy expensive clothes."
I find the article to be a gross oversimplification: It's very hard to put oneself in other person's shoes. The same external behavior might be caused by very different internal mechanism.
I have met people that are labeled as introverted that are just what he describes: One on one conversations about their behavior, with people they trust, show that they really dislike most people, and will never feel at ease in any group. They are selfish people that don't care about others at all. But there's more to it. For instance, my son avoids parties because he gets sensory overloaded very quickly: He'll hide in a corner, covering his ears. Is he selfish? I don't think so. We are doing our best to help him handle such situations, but it'll probably be a struggle for him most of his life.
I also think of my own case: I am a bit of a recluse, but it has nothing to do with not caring about people: I am just painfully aware of the terrible first impression I give, regardless of what I try. It's been described as me seeming a bit 'off' in some fashion, as my non-verbals apparently say terrible things that have nothing to do with what I mean. At the same time, I get to see all that rejection as it happens, making the whole thing exhausting. I do it when I have to, but it's unfun, because it feels absolutely hopeless. It's far easier for me to fix it in smaller gatherings, where I get enough time to override that awful first impression.
On the other side of the coin, I know people that are love large gatherings and social situations because they crave novelty. One example that I got to know pretty well happens to be awesome at fleeting connections: She'll leave a party and half the room thinks they got a great connection, which makes her be seen as a wonderful person in many social circles. But what happens when you look deeper? She is a novelty addict. Travels away from home a lot just to feed this. Her marriage is in shambles, because, of course, she got tired of her husband. Her daughters wonder why she is on the road so much. Friends last her about a year, by the time they are either discarded, or they have run away from the selfishness: People are like chewing gum for her.
Sp when it comes to selfishness, introversion and extroversion, it seems to me that the situation is far more complicated than the article makes it seem, and we should all do our best to take a while before we judge people, as first impressions aren't necessarily correct.
I have met people that are labeled as introverted that are just what he describes: One on one conversations about their behavior, with people they trust, show that they really dislike most people, and will never feel at ease in any group. They are selfish people that don't care about others at all. But there's more to it. For instance, my son avoids parties because he gets sensory overloaded very quickly: He'll hide in a corner, covering his ears. Is he selfish? I don't think so. We are doing our best to help him handle such situations, but it'll probably be a struggle for him most of his life.
I also think of my own case: I am a bit of a recluse, but it has nothing to do with not caring about people: I am just painfully aware of the terrible first impression I give, regardless of what I try. It's been described as me seeming a bit 'off' in some fashion, as my non-verbals apparently say terrible things that have nothing to do with what I mean. At the same time, I get to see all that rejection as it happens, making the whole thing exhausting. I do it when I have to, but it's unfun, because it feels absolutely hopeless. It's far easier for me to fix it in smaller gatherings, where I get enough time to override that awful first impression.
On the other side of the coin, I know people that are love large gatherings and social situations because they crave novelty. One example that I got to know pretty well happens to be awesome at fleeting connections: She'll leave a party and half the room thinks they got a great connection, which makes her be seen as a wonderful person in many social circles. But what happens when you look deeper? She is a novelty addict. Travels away from home a lot just to feed this. Her marriage is in shambles, because, of course, she got tired of her husband. Her daughters wonder why she is on the road so much. Friends last her about a year, by the time they are either discarded, or they have run away from the selfishness: People are like chewing gum for her.
Sp when it comes to selfishness, introversion and extroversion, it seems to me that the situation is far more complicated than the article makes it seem, and we should all do our best to take a while before we judge people, as first impressions aren't necessarily correct.
> "I have met people that are labeled as introverted ... my son avoids parties because he gets sensory overloaded very quickly"
All through my childhood I was labeled as introverted. As an adult, having gone through a lot of self-reflection and self-evaluation, I realize that I have both strong introvert and strong extrovert tendencies -- with many of my strong introvert tendencies being sensory rather than social. I think I'm actually more of an extrovert socially, but I never got that label because of the sensory stuff.
For example: I do fairly well in group settings, as long as they're focused somehow. I like sporting events, but not clubs, because all the noise at the sporting event is focused on the action on the field/court/ice but the noise at the club is an unrelated tangled mess of conversations and music. Big lecture halls in college, churches big and small, and actual concerts are all fine. Things marketed as a "party" usually aren't. I like most people, and have friends from a lot of different segments of society. I just don't like being overwhelmed.
It seems silly to characterize me as "rude" or "selfish" because I would turn down certain types of invitations.
All through my childhood I was labeled as introverted. As an adult, having gone through a lot of self-reflection and self-evaluation, I realize that I have both strong introvert and strong extrovert tendencies -- with many of my strong introvert tendencies being sensory rather than social. I think I'm actually more of an extrovert socially, but I never got that label because of the sensory stuff.
For example: I do fairly well in group settings, as long as they're focused somehow. I like sporting events, but not clubs, because all the noise at the sporting event is focused on the action on the field/court/ice but the noise at the club is an unrelated tangled mess of conversations and music. Big lecture halls in college, churches big and small, and actual concerts are all fine. Things marketed as a "party" usually aren't. I like most people, and have friends from a lot of different segments of society. I just don't like being overwhelmed.
It seems silly to characterize me as "rude" or "selfish" because I would turn down certain types of invitations.
"I like sporting events, but not clubs, because all the noise at the sporting event is focused on the action on the field/court/ice but the noise at the club is an unrelated tangled mess of conversations and music."
This was quite interesting thanks.
This was quite interesting thanks.
I learned a lesson watching "What not to wear." A fashion show about people dressing so badly it would hinder their career.
The "contestant" reason was always that no matter what they would be wearing people should judge them from "what's inside."
Well, though luck, people don't do that. They judge you by what you wear, how you stand, how you talk and there is nothing you can do about it.
Sure you can continue pretending you have bad manner because you're introvert, but don't expect the rest of the world to understand and adapt to your peculiarity.
That's when I stopped blaming the rest of the world for how it worked, improved my social skills and moved on with my life.
The "contestant" reason was always that no matter what they would be wearing people should judge them from "what's inside."
Well, though luck, people don't do that. They judge you by what you wear, how you stand, how you talk and there is nothing you can do about it.
Sure you can continue pretending you have bad manner because you're introvert, but don't expect the rest of the world to understand and adapt to your peculiarity.
That's when I stopped blaming the rest of the world for how it worked, improved my social skills and moved on with my life.
I'll need to watch a bit of that show. I'm a senior developer and recently promoted to team lead at a very large company.
In my opinion, moving up further is not about whether I know the latest framework or how fast I churn out code..it's like you said...
"They judge you by what you wear, how you stand, how you talk and there is nothing you can do about it."
This means more frequent hair cuts, nicer fitting clothes, getting rid of the canvas laptop bag from college.
Even if it doesn't matter, it makes me feel better and confident - which would reflect in how I talk and interact.
In my opinion, moving up further is not about whether I know the latest framework or how fast I churn out code..it's like you said...
"They judge you by what you wear, how you stand, how you talk and there is nothing you can do about it."
This means more frequent hair cuts, nicer fitting clothes, getting rid of the canvas laptop bag from college.
Even if it doesn't matter, it makes me feel better and confident - which would reflect in how I talk and interact.
I can completely relate to the T-shirt mentioned in the first paragraph: “Sorry I’m late,” the T-shirt reads. “I didn’t want to be here.”
The thing is that I end up really glad I went about 90% of the time. So I'm not sure I qualify as an introvert or if I'm just a chicken shit extrovert. Either way, it's a big struggle. I do enjoy alone time a lot, though.
The thing is that I end up really glad I went about 90% of the time. So I'm not sure I qualify as an introvert or if I'm just a chicken shit extrovert. Either way, it's a big struggle. I do enjoy alone time a lot, though.
I feel the same way. After considering it, I've decided I'm halfway between an introvert and an extrovert (and also that I don't like telling people about it).
Elaborating on halfway: when my "job" was "be social and go to class all day" and my leisure time was "hang around suburbs with the same crew of friends," I needed a lot of alone time to recharge and I'd be miserable going out.
Now that my job is "write code all day" and my leisure time is "read books and work on music," I feel a heavy need to socialize, and I often enjoy going out.
Just like many things, it's a spectrum, and everyone falls somewhere.
Elaborating on halfway: when my "job" was "be social and go to class all day" and my leisure time was "hang around suburbs with the same crew of friends," I needed a lot of alone time to recharge and I'd be miserable going out.
Now that my job is "write code all day" and my leisure time is "read books and work on music," I feel a heavy need to socialize, and I often enjoy going out.
Just like many things, it's a spectrum, and everyone falls somewhere.
Yes, and I've worked at home for a number of years and have really gotten used to it. It makes a person sort of adjust to stillness and, frankly, loneliness.
Yeah, the half way between idea works well. I think that the fear of socializing is all front loaded. For at least a couple days before anything, I'm anxious, and that usually dissipates once I arrive and get settled. The settled part is grounding.
If I fail to ground successfully or if I flat out don't like being there, then the anxiety can continue the entire time I'm there.
It's exhausting. I can see how someone having some experiences like that might conclude that's how it is. Not necessarily is what I'd say. Get grounded. Accept some fails.
Easy for me to say sitting on my couch blissfully aware that I have no plans until tomorrow.
Yeah, the half way between idea works well. I think that the fear of socializing is all front loaded. For at least a couple days before anything, I'm anxious, and that usually dissipates once I arrive and get settled. The settled part is grounding.
If I fail to ground successfully or if I flat out don't like being there, then the anxiety can continue the entire time I'm there.
It's exhausting. I can see how someone having some experiences like that might conclude that's how it is. Not necessarily is what I'd say. Get grounded. Accept some fails.
Easy for me to say sitting on my couch blissfully aware that I have no plans until tomorrow.
> I think that the fear of socializing is all front loaded
I agree, at least when I'm in a non-social lifestyle (when I'm living a social "school" lifestyle then I get grumpy and look for ways to leave). I think living in a big city (NYC) "helps", because you have a lot of options available and because the loneliness can be so oppressive that it almost forces you out into some sort of social setting.
Usually it helps me to have someone to go with. Then, (1) I can't bail because they're also depending on me, and (2) it gives me a little safety net to fall back on in case I'm having trouble socializing. That said, I've had great experiences going out alone, but it can be tough to get the conversation started (or tough to convince yourself to start a conversation) unless it's explicitly a meet-and-greet kinda thing.
I agree, at least when I'm in a non-social lifestyle (when I'm living a social "school" lifestyle then I get grumpy and look for ways to leave). I think living in a big city (NYC) "helps", because you have a lot of options available and because the loneliness can be so oppressive that it almost forces you out into some sort of social setting.
Usually it helps me to have someone to go with. Then, (1) I can't bail because they're also depending on me, and (2) it gives me a little safety net to fall back on in case I'm having trouble socializing. That said, I've had great experiences going out alone, but it can be tough to get the conversation started (or tough to convince yourself to start a conversation) unless it's explicitly a meet-and-greet kinda thing.
LOL. I've setup a situation for tomorrow where I absolutely can't bail because of how I set it up. I could have done it another way but chose to take on some responsibility regarding an event. I can't bail without being a total asshole. Otherwise, I high chance I would not go.
Yeah, probably important you go, then.
I personally bailed on my previously-determined weekend plans because I'm still recovering from a cold, and 36 hours of techno would dramatically set back my recovery.
I was hoping for social plans tomorrow and I received an invitation to the beach, so I'm looking forward to that. Gotta get my friendship hours in while it's the weekend, because other than a yet-unplanned date, I've got nothing every day after work next week.
I personally bailed on my previously-determined weekend plans because I'm still recovering from a cold, and 36 hours of techno would dramatically set back my recovery.
I was hoping for social plans tomorrow and I received an invitation to the beach, so I'm looking forward to that. Gotta get my friendship hours in while it's the weekend, because other than a yet-unplanned date, I've got nothing every day after work next week.
I think that's a reasonable reason to bail on something like that. LOL. The beach is good medicine.
You're all over this thread (with good contributions) but this is the best. For me, I build up this fiction of how an event will be. How it will be awkward, how I will wish I was somewhere else doing something else.
But it's just a fiction, and the truth is you never know until you try. Going in with an open mind or even trying to have fun instead of prejudging the event has a real effect on if I have a good time.
Different people need different things, for me just a little optimism can do wonders.
But it's just a fiction, and the truth is you never know until you try. Going in with an open mind or even trying to have fun instead of prejudging the event has a real effect on if I have a good time.
Different people need different things, for me just a little optimism can do wonders.
Yes, last night I was all over this thread and thanks as I wasn't sure if it was too much, OK, or didn't matter in the slightest either way. Same problem IRL. :-)
Yes, absolutely, you're right you never know until try it. I have something coming up that I 100% must go to by design, I'm responsible for it. Anxiety setting in and it's very likely if it weren't for the little trick, I'd talk myself out of going. I'd actively let people down if I don't go to this thing. Maybe that's how I should role from now on be front and center with some responsibility so I can't skip out without being a total asshole. :-)
Note: people flip out with happiness when someone steps up and gets something going for other people. It's not that hard to do it either. Weird that more people don't do it.
Yes, absolutely, you're right you never know until try it. I have something coming up that I 100% must go to by design, I'm responsible for it. Anxiety setting in and it's very likely if it weren't for the little trick, I'd talk myself out of going. I'd actively let people down if I don't go to this thing. Maybe that's how I should role from now on be front and center with some responsibility so I can't skip out without being a total asshole. :-)
Note: people flip out with happiness when someone steps up and gets something going for other people. It's not that hard to do it either. Weird that more people don't do it.
OK, the thing I lead yesterday went well. There were a couple irritating people there but that's just people. The penalty for leaving the house is pretty low. :-)
Speaking as a fellow chicken shit extrovert, I can relate. I'm basically extroverted with very mild social anxiety, coupled with run-of-the-mill self-doubt/self-esteem issues.
But once I get going, I code-switch to "outgoing guy" and I usually have a great time.
Well, until I'm done, and then I'm done. :)
But once I get going, I code-switch to "outgoing guy" and I usually have a great time.
Well, until I'm done, and then I'm done. :)
Disclaimer: No suggestion anyone I'm responding to does any of this...
Weed sometimes helps, sometimes hurts, but usually hurts. The weed isn't helpful even if just meeting a couple friends for a beer who know I'm stoned. They aren't stoned so we're in a different space and it's harder to connect, leading to me getting left behind in the conversation. Not intellectually but more emotionally as in why less eye contact with me? I asked about it and sure enough, the answer was what I expected. And these are people who do do it occasionally so even for them they'd rather deal with me not high.
Alcohol usually hurts. The ceremony of having a couple drinks with friends is the drinking together so it's not helpful to be halfway there already. And if it's non-drinking event, see above, same kind of problem. I find too much alcohol to be uncomfortable so I rarely go that route to prepare but I can see how it could seem appealing for people who like it more than I do.
Weed sometimes helps, sometimes hurts, but usually hurts. The weed isn't helpful even if just meeting a couple friends for a beer who know I'm stoned. They aren't stoned so we're in a different space and it's harder to connect, leading to me getting left behind in the conversation. Not intellectually but more emotionally as in why less eye contact with me? I asked about it and sure enough, the answer was what I expected. And these are people who do do it occasionally so even for them they'd rather deal with me not high.
Alcohol usually hurts. The ceremony of having a couple drinks with friends is the drinking together so it's not helpful to be halfway there already. And if it's non-drinking event, see above, same kind of problem. I find too much alcohol to be uncomfortable so I rarely go that route to prepare but I can see how it could seem appealing for people who like it more than I do.
LOL. And i turn into a pumpkin (read: blithering idiot) at 10:00 pm at the latest if it's evening. It's just social exhaustion.
This piece is actually about excuses more than anything else.
> “Have you ever missed a plane?” she asked. I had not. “Then you can help it. You just care more about yourself than about the needs of others.”
Typical. Feelings always come first, and we make excuses to justify our otherwise unjustifiable actions of irresponsibility.
But we also confuse what the most responsible thing to do actually is. We assume it is to be on time. But that's what other's expect of us. That's being responsible in their eyes. Abiding by these expectations is done because we fear rejection and accusation and failure. This is not being truly responsible. This is being a coward.
The correct responsible response is to simply state you don't want to be there, and not go. State your feelings, because that's who you are. And say so in a polite and graceful manner. Or don't. Just be honest, and spend your time better. That's being responsible.
The only thing excuses do is sustain your incompetence and cowardice. If you need an excuse you always have one. There are millions of reasons why anything is not your fault. But that isn't the issue.
The moment you reject excuses all together is the moment you lose the life vest that has prevented you from swimming. You need to face the water, not reason with it. You need to actually swim and decide to go somewhere, not float around in a flotation device made of excuses and let yourself be bounced around by circumstances.
> “Have you ever missed a plane?” she asked. I had not. “Then you can help it. You just care more about yourself than about the needs of others.”
Typical. Feelings always come first, and we make excuses to justify our otherwise unjustifiable actions of irresponsibility.
But we also confuse what the most responsible thing to do actually is. We assume it is to be on time. But that's what other's expect of us. That's being responsible in their eyes. Abiding by these expectations is done because we fear rejection and accusation and failure. This is not being truly responsible. This is being a coward.
The correct responsible response is to simply state you don't want to be there, and not go. State your feelings, because that's who you are. And say so in a polite and graceful manner. Or don't. Just be honest, and spend your time better. That's being responsible.
The only thing excuses do is sustain your incompetence and cowardice. If you need an excuse you always have one. There are millions of reasons why anything is not your fault. But that isn't the issue.
The moment you reject excuses all together is the moment you lose the life vest that has prevented you from swimming. You need to face the water, not reason with it. You need to actually swim and decide to go somewhere, not float around in a flotation device made of excuses and let yourself be bounced around by circumstances.
Just the title of this article is painting a broad picture. Why is it always a binary choice to be introverted or extroverted? Or introverted or just rude?
One thing I have noticed in tech in the past 10 years is that there are more and more people drawn into it who are more extroverted than introverted. This may partially be explained by the increasing appeal of being a geek in today's popular culture/zeitgeist. Being a geek decades ago was not cool. Now, it is almost sort of accepted to be a geek, to the point where some people will try to seem geekier than they really are. Honestly, I don't give a damn about "Doctor Who".
For me, if you really want to "control the conversation" like another commenter said, you don't have to do that. Just take the lead. It is not about being an introvert or extrovert. Be someone who invites people out to do something or asks people if they want to be introduced (and then introduces them - yes, it is not so binary as this can't be an e-introduction v. personal face-to-face introduction). Be more active, less passive.
As I've ranted before, introverts are not always introverts. As Susan Cain talks about in her somewhat-too-popular book called "Introverts", the brilliant Professor Lewin (before he was rightly discredited and tarnished by his sexual harassment problems) proclaimed himself a performer and an introvert. There is no black or white. Everyone has fifty shades of extroversion and introversion in them.
Stop this divide and conquer. Just be yourself. If you don't feel like going outside for three days, just do it. If you feel like social interaction is binge liking your entire facebook feed, go for it.
If to you, you feel it is a net loss to go out to certain social outings, then you have a choice. It can be a net loss, if you are stuck in your head the entire time and thinking 'what do they think about me, what do they think about me' the entire time like a skipping CD. It is all in your head. We all make stories about the world to provide 'evidence' that the world is like X. However, it seems to be, through talking with my extrovert friends, that they don't even have that beat poetry selfish mantra in their head - they just talk to people and find out what that other person is like. Talk to that cute girl or cute guy or 'they'.
One thing I have noticed in tech in the past 10 years is that there are more and more people drawn into it who are more extroverted than introverted. This may partially be explained by the increasing appeal of being a geek in today's popular culture/zeitgeist. Being a geek decades ago was not cool. Now, it is almost sort of accepted to be a geek, to the point where some people will try to seem geekier than they really are. Honestly, I don't give a damn about "Doctor Who".
For me, if you really want to "control the conversation" like another commenter said, you don't have to do that. Just take the lead. It is not about being an introvert or extrovert. Be someone who invites people out to do something or asks people if they want to be introduced (and then introduces them - yes, it is not so binary as this can't be an e-introduction v. personal face-to-face introduction). Be more active, less passive.
As I've ranted before, introverts are not always introverts. As Susan Cain talks about in her somewhat-too-popular book called "Introverts", the brilliant Professor Lewin (before he was rightly discredited and tarnished by his sexual harassment problems) proclaimed himself a performer and an introvert. There is no black or white. Everyone has fifty shades of extroversion and introversion in them.
Stop this divide and conquer. Just be yourself. If you don't feel like going outside for three days, just do it. If you feel like social interaction is binge liking your entire facebook feed, go for it.
If to you, you feel it is a net loss to go out to certain social outings, then you have a choice. It can be a net loss, if you are stuck in your head the entire time and thinking 'what do they think about me, what do they think about me' the entire time like a skipping CD. It is all in your head. We all make stories about the world to provide 'evidence' that the world is like X. However, it seems to be, through talking with my extrovert friends, that they don't even have that beat poetry selfish mantra in their head - they just talk to people and find out what that other person is like. Talk to that cute girl or cute guy or 'they'.
You might appreciate this PSA for Nerds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJyMT4ZVQEc
Yes, after that reading I really confirmed (again) about I be introverted. Because I just don't care about myself, so the other possibility would be a contradiction if be True.
And yes... Sometimes the introversion of some people is just about a sick selfishness behavior. Why thinking you feelings is better and superior to others? Why criticism about the bad English of some ones instead try its meaning? Know a language, like Mathematics or Greek is just about opportunities, is not about be smart.
Actually, what you are trying really say each selfishly content whose are you writing in the internet? Why are we trying so hard to just confirm our existing hurting the others? Where is the fun about that? I just don't understand it. :(
This really makes me sad. Thinking about why some people just don't thinks the reason of your "random" feelings and the horrible reasons to hurt the lifestyle of others to justify your own dementia.
And yes... Sometimes the introversion of some people is just about a sick selfishness behavior. Why thinking you feelings is better and superior to others? Why criticism about the bad English of some ones instead try its meaning? Know a language, like Mathematics or Greek is just about opportunities, is not about be smart.
Actually, what you are trying really say each selfishly content whose are you writing in the internet? Why are we trying so hard to just confirm our existing hurting the others? Where is the fun about that? I just don't understand it. :(
This really makes me sad. Thinking about why some people just don't thinks the reason of your "random" feelings and the horrible reasons to hurt the lifestyle of others to justify your own dementia.
Real party atmosphere in this thread. We should all get together!
"Somewhere there ought to be a club for anti-social people."
-- Ashleigh Brilliant
https://www.ashleighbrilliant.com/LivingWithInsanity.html
-- Ashleigh Brilliant
https://www.ashleighbrilliant.com/LivingWithInsanity.html
Just write it in an email what TV shows you watch mate.
speed dating with this merry group of intellectuals must be a blast.
preferably to the temple.
preferably to the temple.
It's kinda cool how different sites develop different dialects and tones. HN's conversational tone is probably the least fun/humorous I've ever encountered on a website, which is (obviously) good in some instances and bad in others.
What would it take to shift a website's tone? What factors, both technical/website-related and people-related, determine how the tone comes across? Food for thought.
What would it take to shift a website's tone? What factors, both technical/website-related and people-related, determine how the tone comes across? Food for thought.
Downvoting behavior.
Read the heavily greyed comments and turn on showing dead comments. Sometimes there is humour in there!
Karma-sensitive people will adjust their behaviour and stop being funny though, amplifying the effect
Read the heavily greyed comments and turn on showing dead comments. Sometimes there is humour in there!
Karma-sensitive people will adjust their behaviour and stop being funny though, amplifying the effect
Fortunately, they are just Internet Points™, so it doesn't really matter if a handful of people feel offended enough by levity to downvote an occasional joking shitpost.
Except if you are down-voted your opinion gets censored. First to those with colour blindness, then eventually to everyone.
In a probably inevitable extension of nerd culture, the Dale Carnegie image of gregarious success was shattered by stories of powerful, successful people sitting quietly in meetings and substituting controlled online interactions for draining real world encounters.
This part stuck out . Outside of social situations, economically speaking it seems like the introverts are in control of most of society. It is a good trade-off between making a lot of money and being successful as measured by prestige, vs. being extroverted and less successful? I think so.
This part stuck out . Outside of social situations, economically speaking it seems like the introverts are in control of most of society. It is a good trade-off between making a lot of money and being successful as measured by prestige, vs. being extroverted and less successful? I think so.
(Could not RTFA: nytimes blocked here)
I (41/m) used to think I was introvert but now a think I have a bad case of attention deficit syndrome: I always need to do multiple things or I zone out. I am a steaming social animal: I go to parties, business meetings, friday drinks but a few minutes in I need to get my phone and do work. I just cannot help myself: when someone is talking to me I hear everything they say, I respond and have intelligent discourse but during that I am also talking with 5 people on Wechat, thinking up fixes for sites/apps and adding notes in Teamwork. Some people find it rude but when you know me you know it is not so. It was very good for me to work in China for a bit: here everyone sits typing in their phone while talking. And it is, even in meetings with very large companies, normal to pick up your phone and look something up you are not sure about. That is how it is supposed to be: go to a meeting with a bank in London and you have to know every fact by heart because people will pause and look at you when you pick up your phone... What madness is that: either I say I do not know or am not sure and delay matters we are discussing to a follow up or I pick my phone up and Google it?
I (41/m) used to think I was introvert but now a think I have a bad case of attention deficit syndrome: I always need to do multiple things or I zone out. I am a steaming social animal: I go to parties, business meetings, friday drinks but a few minutes in I need to get my phone and do work. I just cannot help myself: when someone is talking to me I hear everything they say, I respond and have intelligent discourse but during that I am also talking with 5 people on Wechat, thinking up fixes for sites/apps and adding notes in Teamwork. Some people find it rude but when you know me you know it is not so. It was very good for me to work in China for a bit: here everyone sits typing in their phone while talking. And it is, even in meetings with very large companies, normal to pick up your phone and look something up you are not sure about. That is how it is supposed to be: go to a meeting with a bank in London and you have to know every fact by heart because people will pause and look at you when you pick up your phone... What madness is that: either I say I do not know or am not sure and delay matters we are discussing to a follow up or I pick my phone up and Google it?
It's interesting, people see me as very extroverted and I can be but what they don't see is just how much I also like my alone time and the older I get the more I can let myself be introverted and be fine with it. I think social media gives me a fake sense of being connected to people and so staying home becomes easier because I can still be "social".
People overestimate themselves. Maybe I'm not introverted, nor rude. Maybe you're just boring, annoying, or rude yourself.
I am fascinated as how people are sharing "strategies" here... like "how to cope with people" or considering that social interactions are "transactions" and "investment".
A little empathy anyone? Like being genuinely interested in the people around you? Like having fun by listening to new stuff...
I see a lot of depressed people around there :(
A little empathy anyone? Like being genuinely interested in the people around you? Like having fun by listening to new stuff...
I see a lot of depressed people around there :(
I watch my son, who behaves a lot like I did/do. 1. His inner imagination and dialog is often much richer than what most people have to offer. Sorry, hearing people talk about the weather gets boring quickly. 2. that inner imagination and dialog don't shut off just because people are around. You can ignore it for a while, but it gets "noisy" after a while, like a caged animal trying to get out. 3. Those quiet times alone are there to maintain sanity and balance. Give the inner dialog time to work out its thought, process the new information, figure out what you should have said instead of what you did.
My son and I are actually deeply empathetic actually, when people describe injuries I feel it with them, feelings of loss hit me hard as well. But keep all the noise in my head at bay while maintaining conversation for long periods is tiring.
My son and I are actually deeply empathetic actually, when people describe injuries I feel it with them, feelings of loss hit me hard as well. But keep all the noise in my head at bay while maintaining conversation for long periods is tiring.
If you don't build relationships with people, beware that you might not have anyone to know or care for you when you are in need. If you want to be part of a supportive community, and the standard conversational forms of social grooming don't work for you, take care to replace them with something, like writing letters or doing acts of kindness
You are making wrong assumption that it's a choice and people just don't want to do "fun" stuff because they hate you or have some other negative personal feeling. It's not so. It's just that stuff is not "fun" for them anymore.
It's hard to understand if you didn't experience it, but something that is fun in one circumstance may be very hard in another.
Imagine eating a cup of ice cream and eating a ton of ice cream. If you already ate all ice cream you wanted, and then all you could, and feel completely bloated and full, and somebody comes to you and says "why don't you eat a little ice cream? I made it myself, it's delicious!" what would be your reaction? What if that person insists, saying "come on, ice cream is fun! Please eat! Do you really hate me that much? Am I that bad a cook? You know, dude, you're really rude!"
It's not depression - just as not wanting more ice cream doesn't mean person hates ice cream in general or is sick or didn't enjoy the ice cream they had before. It's just that they had enough and don't want it anymore. Maybe they'd want more tomorrow. But not right now.
It's hard to understand if you didn't experience it, but something that is fun in one circumstance may be very hard in another.
Imagine eating a cup of ice cream and eating a ton of ice cream. If you already ate all ice cream you wanted, and then all you could, and feel completely bloated and full, and somebody comes to you and says "why don't you eat a little ice cream? I made it myself, it's delicious!" what would be your reaction? What if that person insists, saying "come on, ice cream is fun! Please eat! Do you really hate me that much? Am I that bad a cook? You know, dude, you're really rude!"
It's not depression - just as not wanting more ice cream doesn't mean person hates ice cream in general or is sick or didn't enjoy the ice cream they had before. It's just that they had enough and don't want it anymore. Maybe they'd want more tomorrow. But not right now.
Introverts are usually quite empathetic.
The thing is that for us, interacting with other people is draining so when you see that from that perspective you'd prefer to spend that sociable time for more important/interesting things.
The thing is that for us, interacting with other people is draining so when you see that from that perspective you'd prefer to spend that sociable time for more important/interesting things.
I knew I had come across this idea before:
http://www.theonion.com/article/seemingly-shy-woman-really-j...
http://www.theonion.com/article/seemingly-shy-woman-really-j...
The deeper meaning here is don't make assumptions on people's motives.
I for one would love to have that T-shirt mentioned in the beginning of the article.
I am an introvert but I am aware of the importance of building friendships.
So I took up on cooking and invite people to dinners at my house (the largest was 45 people). People are more relaxed in a home cooked dinner and they tend to like you.
So I took up on cooking and invite people to dinners at my house (the largest was 45 people). People are more relaxed in a home cooked dinner and they tend to like you.
I have had several people accuse me of being Aspergers because I am not the back-slapping, party animal type. Lets leave the medical issue for those who have difficulty functioning in society and not for us introverts.
I get pretty frustrated if I don't have enough alone time. It's driven me away from almost every relationship I've had. That statement doesn't bother me as much as it should.
There is too much "I", that may be the problem.
some people like being with random people more or less than others. Some like being with people they know and don't like meeting new people as much. If it affects your life then probably time to learn some new skills, if not then probably just leave things alone. This idea that there is some exactly right amount of number of people everyone should like hanging around is...strange.
Can't I be both? I am an introvert (personality type) but I am frequently rude to people I do not give much of a shit about (choice).
The author was claiming she was using her introvert nature as an excuse for being rude.
You can be both extraverted and rude too. An extravert should excuse their rude outward behavior on being an extravert.
You can be both extraverted and rude too. An extravert should excuse their rude outward behavior on being an extravert.
Warning: If you read this title aloud to your spouse, you might get an answer.
Missed a plane. Four times. Two of them in the row. ADD sucks.
It's rude to expect people to act a certain way as well.
Alternate title for another post -
Am I rude, or just introvert?
Am I rude, or just introvert?
[deleted]
Why not both?
Because actually people are neither.
I am getting tired of people putting themselves or others into a certain box because this causes a lot of trouble in forms of limiting beliefs.
Categorizing people is like trying to square the circle. You're bound to get it wrong and if you truly belief you've succeeded then you are under a delusion.
Personality traits are nothing but abstractions. Abstractions generally can be useful. For instance, when it comes to programming or engineering. But for stuff like personality traits they are not healthy imho.
I am not big into Christianity but I like how it says in the bible that a.) god made us in his image and b.) you shouldn't have an image of god. Maybe, whoever wrote this, was onto something.
Categorizing people is like trying to square the circle. You're bound to get it wrong and if you truly belief you've succeeded then you are under a delusion.
Personality traits are nothing but abstractions. Abstractions generally can be useful. For instance, when it comes to programming or engineering. But for stuff like personality traits they are not healthy imho.
I am not big into Christianity but I like how it says in the bible that a.) god made us in his image and b.) you shouldn't have an image of god. Maybe, whoever wrote this, was onto something.
Your time is valuable. Never spend it with people who bring less value into your life than you would have got if you spent this time alone. Never ever (exception: if you are responsible for someone, like a child or elderly person). It's that simple. The hard part is estimating how much value somone/going out brings into your life.
Either way, you can call that rude and selfish, I call it a wise way to spend my limited resources.
Either way, you can call that rude and selfish, I call it a wise way to spend my limited resources.
> exception: if you are responsible for someone, like a child or elderly person
So what about when she says: "I sat in my car and read a book while my children attended a family-oriented athletic function"?
I think from that single line that she was actually being rude.
So what about when she says: "I sat in my car and read a book while my children attended a family-oriented athletic function"?
I think from that single line that she was actually being rude.
I suggest you quit drugs and marry a nice girl. Maybe get into NA or something for the drugs.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12573575 and marked it off-topic.
It should be deleted. I was feeling very dark when I posted it.
While I assume you mean well, the heteronormativity of your comment alone is just ... wow.
Frankly, this reads, to me, like telling a homeless person to get a job.
Frankly, this reads, to me, like telling a homeless person to get a job.
Isn't NA basically a Scientology front?
That said, it's interesting to note that for most of recorded history, the #1 recommendation to someone in cubano's position would be to join the locally-favored religion. Without that option -- as objectively bogus as it is -- the chances of getting his/her life back on track may be lower than they historically have been.
That said, it's interesting to note that for most of recorded history, the #1 recommendation to someone in cubano's position would be to join the locally-favored religion. Without that option -- as objectively bogus as it is -- the chances of getting his/her life back on track may be lower than they historically have been.
I think you are confusing Narcotics Anonymous www.na.org with Narcanon (the name comes from Narco Non - as in, no drugs) http://www.narconon.org/about-narconon/ which is based on the works of L. Ron Hubbard.
I have a relative that completed the Narconon program in Melbourne.
I have a relative that completed the Narconon program in Melbourne.
"Isn't NA basically a Scientology front?"
What? I haven't heard that one before.
What? I haven't heard that one before.
Narconon[1] is a Scientology front. Not to be confused with Narcotics Anonymous
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcanon
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcanon
I've never heard or read anyone say or suggest that Scientology runs NA besides you.
I think nyolfen's right, Narcotics Anonymous and Narcanon are two different orgs.
ferrari8608(3)
I'm also not trying to be rude, it is more like some uncontrollable ADD that makes my attention wander when I'm in social situations. But get a few early nights and walks alone and I'm back to normal. When I'm rested I've been told that I'm engaging and funny, but when I'm not people (well, at least extroverts) think I'm being aloof and, as the author said, rude. But needing to sleep or to use the restroom isn't considered rude, so I really feel that my recharge time should be similar. Or maybe I just need a better way of handling it.
Are there any introverts out there who have developed coping mechanisms for dealing with people when you're already peopled out, and are willing to chime in?