USPS Discrimination Against Atheism? A Study by Atheist Shoes (2013)(atheistberlin.com)
atheistberlin.com
USPS Discrimination Against Atheism? A Study by Atheist Shoes (2013)
https://www.atheistberlin.com/study
87 comments
"The Atheist post seems to imply that they only sent 1 package to Michigan."
"In my experience, more people lie or are mistaken about their package delivery than packages actually being lost."
Read more carefully: they sent exactly two packages to each person, with the only difference being the tape. This isn't affected by some random customer complaining about a package being late or lost; these are people who are each reporting the arrival times of two packages.
"So 178 items sounds like a ridiculously limited amount of shipments to consider."
If you agree that each of the 89 pairs of packages are more or less independent, then we can use p-values to determine whether the results are significant based on the sample size. They are.
There are still plenty of systematic effects that could have affected the study by invalidating the assumption of independence between the 89 "trials." For example, if the customers all knew the purpose of the study, some of them may have intentionally mis-reported their result. So I agree that you can't reach a firm conclusion based on this one study. I just wanted to point out that many of the objections you raised don't seem to apply, and that this is a pretty interesting result not to be dismissed so lightly.
"In my experience, more people lie or are mistaken about their package delivery than packages actually being lost."
Read more carefully: they sent exactly two packages to each person, with the only difference being the tape. This isn't affected by some random customer complaining about a package being late or lost; these are people who are each reporting the arrival times of two packages.
"So 178 items sounds like a ridiculously limited amount of shipments to consider."
If you agree that each of the 89 pairs of packages are more or less independent, then we can use p-values to determine whether the results are significant based on the sample size. They are.
There are still plenty of systematic effects that could have affected the study by invalidating the assumption of independence between the 89 "trials." For example, if the customers all knew the purpose of the study, some of them may have intentionally mis-reported their result. So I agree that you can't reach a firm conclusion based on this one study. I just wanted to point out that many of the objections you raised don't seem to apply, and that this is a pretty interesting result not to be dismissed so lightly.
I see what you're saying, for the most part, and I definitely missed the fact that each customer was sent one of each. (I'm going to claim that I was distracted by the pictures :)
I'm still having a hard time viewing it as proof of a religious bias. There's still a number of conclusions that could be drawn that aren't that... The decorative tape might be harder for automated postage-processing machines to deal with. The decorative tape might be less sticky than the non-decorative tape (they make no mention of that). I'm not sure how they delivered this stuff to the Post Office, but if the packages were presorted into a group of decorative tape boxes and a group of plain tape boxes, that could be the _entire_ reason one type was lost/delayed more than the other (if a whole bin or a pallet or whatever had an issue).
It's only 9 packages that went missing, too. So if 5 of those 9 went to one city, 3 of the 9 to another, and 1 of the 9 to a third city, then the conclusion to draw is that those 3 cities had issue with the decorative tape for some reason. Not that the entire USPS is religiously biased. If each loss were stated to be in a separate (and significantly different) city, that would be closer to the stated conclusion.
Finally, at the bottom in the small print (I read it a bit more carefully this time), you see that they were shipped via Deutsch Post then handed over to USPS when they reached the US. (That's pretty standard for how international shipping works.) Without tracking, how can they lay blame for lost/delayed packages solely on the USPS? And even if they had tracking only up until the packages left the country (as is how some international shipments work), there are still factors outside of the USPS that could affect this, for instance maybe someone at the Deutsche Post decided for fun (or maybe even some sort of processing reason) to sort all/some of the 178 packages. Then imagine that a single bin of packages went missing and it just happened to be one of the bins of decoratively-taped packages... That could mean one act of incompetence (or even maliciousness) is deciding the entire outcome of the study.
Really though, the fact that they're concluding this based on 10 lost packages still strikes me as odd. An issue with just 10 packages is so well below the levels of extreme incompetence that I've encountered with the Post Office in my years that claiming religious bias feels like giving the system far too much credit.
I'm still having a hard time viewing it as proof of a religious bias. There's still a number of conclusions that could be drawn that aren't that... The decorative tape might be harder for automated postage-processing machines to deal with. The decorative tape might be less sticky than the non-decorative tape (they make no mention of that). I'm not sure how they delivered this stuff to the Post Office, but if the packages were presorted into a group of decorative tape boxes and a group of plain tape boxes, that could be the _entire_ reason one type was lost/delayed more than the other (if a whole bin or a pallet or whatever had an issue).
It's only 9 packages that went missing, too. So if 5 of those 9 went to one city, 3 of the 9 to another, and 1 of the 9 to a third city, then the conclusion to draw is that those 3 cities had issue with the decorative tape for some reason. Not that the entire USPS is religiously biased. If each loss were stated to be in a separate (and significantly different) city, that would be closer to the stated conclusion.
Finally, at the bottom in the small print (I read it a bit more carefully this time), you see that they were shipped via Deutsch Post then handed over to USPS when they reached the US. (That's pretty standard for how international shipping works.) Without tracking, how can they lay blame for lost/delayed packages solely on the USPS? And even if they had tracking only up until the packages left the country (as is how some international shipments work), there are still factors outside of the USPS that could affect this, for instance maybe someone at the Deutsche Post decided for fun (or maybe even some sort of processing reason) to sort all/some of the 178 packages. Then imagine that a single bin of packages went missing and it just happened to be one of the bins of decoratively-taped packages... That could mean one act of incompetence (or even maliciousness) is deciding the entire outcome of the study.
Really though, the fact that they're concluding this based on 10 lost packages still strikes me as odd. An issue with just 10 packages is so well below the levels of extreme incompetence that I've encountered with the Post Office in my years that claiming religious bias feels like giving the system far too much credit.
Stats below:
If there is no bias, the lost packages reports would have equal probability of having come from the athiest group or the non-athiest group.
The (frequentist) probability that the ratio would be 9:1 or worse (given 10 lost packages) is 10/(2^10) which is approximately 0.98%. If you're the type to care about p-values, here we have p < 0.01.
Suppose there indeed exists this bias as it appears (9 times more likely to lose athiest package), we might be curious to ask: how likely is it that we would have detected a statistically significant (p < 0.05) bias with just 10 packages lost total?
Doing a similar calculation as above can check that we only see a statistical significance bias if the loss discrepancy is (10:0, 9:1, 1:9, or 0:10). Now if we suppose the bias is 9:1, how likely are we to have seen one of those events? If we add up the probability of these events (10:0, 9:1, 1:9, or 0:10) occurring under a biased scenario, we get about a 74% chance of us detecting the bias.
A standard requirement is for this number to be at least 80%, our result is close but would like to see more data before publishing in the Journal of Atheist Footwear.
The latter metric is called statistical power or the probability of not getting a false negative, whereas p-value is the probability of a false positive.
If there is no bias, the lost packages reports would have equal probability of having come from the athiest group or the non-athiest group.
The (frequentist) probability that the ratio would be 9:1 or worse (given 10 lost packages) is 10/(2^10) which is approximately 0.98%. If you're the type to care about p-values, here we have p < 0.01.
Suppose there indeed exists this bias as it appears (9 times more likely to lose athiest package), we might be curious to ask: how likely is it that we would have detected a statistically significant (p < 0.05) bias with just 10 packages lost total?
Doing a similar calculation as above can check that we only see a statistical significance bias if the loss discrepancy is (10:0, 9:1, 1:9, or 0:10). Now if we suppose the bias is 9:1, how likely are we to have seen one of those events? If we add up the probability of these events (10:0, 9:1, 1:9, or 0:10) occurring under a biased scenario, we get about a 74% chance of us detecting the bias.
A standard requirement is for this number to be at least 80%, our result is close but would like to see more data before publishing in the Journal of Atheist Footwear.
The latter metric is called statistical power or the probability of not getting a false negative, whereas p-value is the probability of a false positive.
I appreciate the statistics even though I don't really understand them all that well. Since you seem fairly knowledgable of statistics (though I know a lot of people here are too, so other chime in too if you want), could a case be made that we shouldn't be comparing 9 lost decorative tape packages out of 178 with 1 lost non-decorative tape package out of 178, but instead be comparing 9 directly with 1? When 10 packages
And if you're curious, please see my other reply as to why I think, even including statistical significance of one type being lost more than the other, we can't really draw a "religious bias" conclusion.
And if you're curious, please see my other reply as to why I think, even including statistical significance of one type being lost more than the other, we can't really draw a "religious bias" conclusion.
Yep, the numbers I ran are already doing exactly what you suggest. Looking exclusively at the 10 lost packages and considering how likely it should be that 9 of them would belong to one category, compared to our expectation (which is that they would be equally likely to have come from either category, coming from the fact that the same number of packages were shipped with Atheist labeling as without).
The statistics is entirely identical to flipping a coin 10 times and asking the following questions: * Given that I saw 9 heads and 1 tail, how likely is it that the coin is a fair coin. This is the p-value which was about 0.0098 (less than 1% chance) * Given that we are only tossing 10 coins, how likely are we to have seen a statistically significant bias with the predicted bias in place. This is the statistical power, which was 74%.
As you suggest in your other comment, the stats only point to a bias, the origin of the bias is left for people to decide. That said, the packages were sent in pairs, so subdividing the country into states and offices is irrelevant since a given states saw the same number of packages from each category as did each given office, the statistics are saying that on average (across the whole country) there is a bias.
To ease your worries a little, this is not saying the USPS hates Atheist packages 9x more than non-Atheist packages, most of the packages were delivered successfully. All this is saying is that, for the ones that were lost, it is very likely that they were lost because of their labeling. This is the effect you would expect to see if 97.3% of USPS employees treated the packages identically and the other 2.7% have a strong bias.
If we had more specifics about the delayed packages as well, we could get a more nuanced picture, I suspect we would find that 80+% of USPS employees are unbiased, some 10-15% might have some bias against Atheist labeling (would delay an Atheist labeled package), and 2-3% have a strong bias against Atheist labeling (would lose an Atheist labeled package).
If I was at USPS, I would push to conduct an experiment to try to identify which offices were most likely to have some bias one way or another (not necessarily specifically about Atheism, one could test whatever they wanted presumably).
The statistics is entirely identical to flipping a coin 10 times and asking the following questions: * Given that I saw 9 heads and 1 tail, how likely is it that the coin is a fair coin. This is the p-value which was about 0.0098 (less than 1% chance) * Given that we are only tossing 10 coins, how likely are we to have seen a statistically significant bias with the predicted bias in place. This is the statistical power, which was 74%.
As you suggest in your other comment, the stats only point to a bias, the origin of the bias is left for people to decide. That said, the packages were sent in pairs, so subdividing the country into states and offices is irrelevant since a given states saw the same number of packages from each category as did each given office, the statistics are saying that on average (across the whole country) there is a bias.
To ease your worries a little, this is not saying the USPS hates Atheist packages 9x more than non-Atheist packages, most of the packages were delivered successfully. All this is saying is that, for the ones that were lost, it is very likely that they were lost because of their labeling. This is the effect you would expect to see if 97.3% of USPS employees treated the packages identically and the other 2.7% have a strong bias.
If we had more specifics about the delayed packages as well, we could get a more nuanced picture, I suspect we would find that 80+% of USPS employees are unbiased, some 10-15% might have some bias against Atheist labeling (would delay an Atheist labeled package), and 2-3% have a strong bias against Atheist labeling (would lose an Atheist labeled package).
If I was at USPS, I would push to conduct an experiment to try to identify which offices were most likely to have some bias one way or another (not necessarily specifically about Atheism, one could test whatever they wanted presumably).
I'm glad you ran this analysis. I was about to do something similar!
I'm sure we're quite a few years away from the possibility of a POTUS admitting to being an atheist.
Why would the packaging tape make recipient lie (or err) more about not recieving a package? And if there's no conceivable reason then why have you brought it up?
I know your point is that USPS has high variance but I think statistical tests should account for this.
I know your point is that USPS has high variance but I think statistical tests should account for this.
I definitely missed that each customer was sent one of each. Sorry. Really embarrassing considering it was first paragraph of the picture-y part.
This was a randomized experiment with results that were significant with p<0.001. What more do you want? 178 is more than large enough a sample size for an effect size this strong.
Please see my response here, if you're curious: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12610428
I am addressing your original objection, that the sample size isn't large enough. The sample size is more than large enough. That comment you link raises entirely new and separate issues.
It's true they didn't say whether or not they properly randomized the boxes. But I assume they were competent enough to do that, and they certainly don't say that they didn't. They did say they had no issue in Europe and that the problems were entirely from the US. I really doubt it's with the quality of the tape or the automated systems, using a different kind of type shouldn't make such a huge difference.
It really seems like you are just looking for any reason you can think of to disregard the results. Religious bias is a huge problem in the US. Their hypothesis is totally reasonable. And their experiment, while not perfect, provides evidence for that hypothesis.
It's true they didn't say whether or not they properly randomized the boxes. But I assume they were competent enough to do that, and they certainly don't say that they didn't. They did say they had no issue in Europe and that the problems were entirely from the US. I really doubt it's with the quality of the tape or the automated systems, using a different kind of type shouldn't make such a huge difference.
It really seems like you are just looking for any reason you can think of to disregard the results. Religious bias is a huge problem in the US. Their hypothesis is totally reasonable. And their experiment, while not perfect, provides evidence for that hypothesis.
I'm not "looking for any reason [I] can think of to disregard the results". I'm just saying that based on the fact we were given it's naive to jump to the "religious bias" conclusion that they (and other people) have jumped to.
Additionally, based on my experience with the USPS, it's far more likely to be attributed to negligence/incompetence than religious bias.
Finally, I'm not denying there isn't or can't be a religious bias in the USPS, and such a bias may very well be what's causing this company's problems. But this "study" is far from conclusive, and fails to even acknowledge the possibility of a different conclusion.
Additionally, based on my experience with the USPS, it's far more likely to be attributed to negligence/incompetence than religious bias.
Finally, I'm not denying there isn't or can't be a religious bias in the USPS, and such a bias may very well be what's causing this company's problems. But this "study" is far from conclusive, and fails to even acknowledge the possibility of a different conclusion.
Yo would love to talk shot re: shipping. Hit me up at [email protected]
The Pew Research Center surveyed 3,217 randomly selected U.S. adults[0] and asked them to rate how positively they viewed each belief group. Here's the ranking from most positive to least positive:
1. Jews
2. Catholics
3. Evangelical Christians
4. Buddhists
5. Hindus
6. Mormons
7. Atheists
8. Muslims
Surprisingly (at least to me), Atheists is second to last.
Interestingly enough, the low ranking of Atheists persists across party lines. Both Republicans and Democrats rank Atheists only slightly higher than Muslims, and by similar margins too: 2 points in the former and 1 point in the latter.
[0] http://www.pewforum.org/2014/07/16/how-americans-feel-about-...
1. Jews
2. Catholics
3. Evangelical Christians
4. Buddhists
5. Hindus
6. Mormons
7. Atheists
8. Muslims
Surprisingly (at least to me), Atheists is second to last.
Interestingly enough, the low ranking of Atheists persists across party lines. Both Republicans and Democrats rank Atheists only slightly higher than Muslims, and by similar margins too: 2 points in the former and 1 point in the latter.
[0] http://www.pewforum.org/2014/07/16/how-americans-feel-about-...
I think many people in the US will hesitate saying anything against Jews so as not be considered anti semitic. Had the question been about Judaism instead of Jews you might have a different result.
Atheism has been attached to communism and socialism for a long time in the US so has a bad rap. But now with almost 40% of the us public calling themselve non religious and Bernie's socialist leaning campaign shows that is changing.
Atheism has been attached to communism and socialism for a long time in the US so has a bad rap. But now with almost 40% of the us public calling themselve non religious and Bernie's socialist leaning campaign shows that is changing.
Since they didn't seem to specify religious jews, their survey is just mixing ethnic with belief group, which doesn't make much sense.
They are measuring perceptions, which are all inside people's heads. If they had included "lizard people" and "foreigners" on the survey, that would also be a valid way of measuring perceptions even though one group represents 7 billion people and the other zero.
Isn't this the case with most of the groups? I would imagine even atheist Jews have been to synagogue at least a few times. I would consider Catholics who only go to Easter and Christmas mass to not be religious.
The difference is that Jewish is actually an ethnic group as well as a religious group. There is some overlap between them of course, but for example there are Asian Jews and Jewish Catholics.
The Jewish ethnic group are people historically descended from the people of Eastern Europe and the Middle East who practiced ancient Judaism (the religion). That's why 23andme can identify someone as X% Jewish.
The Jewish ethnic group are people historically descended from the people of Eastern Europe and the Middle East who practiced ancient Judaism (the religion). That's why 23andme can identify someone as X% Jewish.
Although I agree with their conclusion, I'd like to see how it would go with other names rather than "atheist" as a group control to eliminate the possibility of a difference between branded and non-branded differences.
I agree. If you could add the same tape with different words it would eliminate the possibility that the worded tape was interfering with some auto-sort functionality.
They definitely should have tried it with Arabic, Cyrillic, and maybe Wingdings for a control group.
>Wingdings
95% package loss rate incoming
95% package loss rate incoming
If you want all your packages to be lost, print the addresses in Wingdings
also were the boxes otherwise identical? were the unbranded boxes obviously empty while the branded boxes always had shoes in them?
From the article it looks like these were all regular shoe deliveries and they chose either to add the branded tape or leave it off. So from a weight/contents perspective there shouldn't have been much difference.
The article does not say that. It says that every person was sent two packages.
They are shoes. It's pretty easy to assume how they split a pair into to equally weight & size packages for the test.
Sure you could assume that, they didn't say so though.
As an experimental design that would be pretty good, but as a product experience I would not be very happy to unbox one shoe, then wait days for the other one to arrive or find out it was lost in the mail.
As an experimental design that would be pretty good, but as a product experience I would not be very happy to unbox one shoe, then wait days for the other one to arrive or find out it was lost in the mail.
It's extremely funny that German atheists are so desperate to feel like they're persecuted by stupid, provincial Americans that they've completely failed to control their experiment.
So the other theory is that any worded tape (or knowing that package might contain shoes) makes Americans (but not Europeans) behave worse. Sure, that sounds like something absolutely essential to be checked.
> makes Americans (but not Europeans) behave worse
If you read the small print, you learn that the packages passed through Deutsche Post before going to the US. So it could actually still be the Europeans.
> So the other theory is that any worded tape
It might not be people at all... There could be some computer vision issue at play. Or hell, maybe it is people, but it's a similar problem: packages with worded tape might be harder for the eye to quickly parse and figure out what to do with, and that's why more issues happen to those packages. There are definitely possibilities other than the one you stated.
Edit to add: All that said, I don't support the tone/spirit of the post you were replying to, so please don't group my response with theirs.
If you read the small print, you learn that the packages passed through Deutsche Post before going to the US. So it could actually still be the Europeans.
> So the other theory is that any worded tape
It might not be people at all... There could be some computer vision issue at play. Or hell, maybe it is people, but it's a similar problem: packages with worded tape might be harder for the eye to quickly parse and figure out what to do with, and that's why more issues happen to those packages. There are definitely possibilities other than the one you stated.
Edit to add: All that said, I don't support the tone/spirit of the post you were replying to, so please don't group my response with theirs.
They've also sent packages to European recipients (I'm assuming through Deutsche Post as well) and there were no difference between taped and untaped ones.
Read through all the information, they pretty much excluded Deutche Post (by comparing with packages sent to European recipients) and US customs (by noticing how rarerly their packages are picked for inspection).
I agree that there are more possibilities and further research is needed but I don't agree with people believing that what they did so far amounts to nothing.
Read through all the information, they pretty much excluded Deutche Post (by comparing with packages sent to European recipients) and US customs (by noticing how rarerly their packages are picked for inspection).
I agree that there are more possibilities and further research is needed but I don't agree with people believing that what they did so far amounts to nothing.
They only state the average when they should also state the median along with the entire data set. Let's say they sent 10 shoes of each type. Nine shoes of each type took exactly the same time. But one pair of Atheist shoe was delayed by 100 days. Now, on average, atheist shoes take 10 days longer to arrive because one of the pairs took 100 days longer to arrive.
This post is from (2013) but I doubt there has been any change in the past 3 years. It is concerning that there is any difference at all in shipping times when tape with the word "atheist" on it is used. The difference was significant (p<0.001). I would love to see a similar study with a variety of packing tape ("Atheist", "Christian", "Muslim", etc).
I would like to see a study with a comparison with non-religious, ostensibly non-discriminatory words. How about just "Shoes"?
Then compare that to a few other packages. One plain brown cardboard with clear tape and a large, crisp shipping label. I expect that will sail straight through all the automatic sorters.
A few with various words (some, perhaps, more likely to be found offensive than "atheist", some less) on tape in high-contrast black and white. In addition to "Shoes", you could write "Merry Christmas" (in mid-January, of course), "Green", "Cleveland" (note: the box doesn't need to go to Cleveland), "Dildos", "FedEx" (sending the box by USPS, of course), "Kittens", "Kidneys" (the box shouldn't contain kittens or kidneys, just have the word on it).
Then one with a complete coverage of wrapping paper with a variety of words, fonts, barcodes, receipts, invoices, and colors all over the box, and a little smudged shipping label on the bottom of the box. It would be like a Where's Waldo for postal workers: Find the one complete shipping label. See how long that takes to get through!
Then compare that to a few other packages. One plain brown cardboard with clear tape and a large, crisp shipping label. I expect that will sail straight through all the automatic sorters.
A few with various words (some, perhaps, more likely to be found offensive than "atheist", some less) on tape in high-contrast black and white. In addition to "Shoes", you could write "Merry Christmas" (in mid-January, of course), "Green", "Cleveland" (note: the box doesn't need to go to Cleveland), "Dildos", "FedEx" (sending the box by USPS, of course), "Kittens", "Kidneys" (the box shouldn't contain kittens or kidneys, just have the word on it).
Then one with a complete coverage of wrapping paper with a variety of words, fonts, barcodes, receipts, invoices, and colors all over the box, and a little smudged shipping label on the bottom of the box. It would be like a Where's Waldo for postal workers: Find the one complete shipping label. See how long that takes to get through!
Like when Puzzle Magazine would feature envelopes from letters they received where their address was in the form of a puzzle for the post office to solve.
Some more:
Anthrax, Plutonium, Guns, Gasoline, Cocaine, Cobras, Ivory
Anthrax, Plutonium, Guns, Gasoline, Cocaine, Cobras, Ivory
In Chicago, maybe 10 years ago, they found a warehouse full of undelivered mail that the mailman was just dumping there.
And recently, 22,000 pcs were not delivered because the mailman was unhappy about a transfer or something.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/mail-carrier-charged-n...
And recently, 22,000 pcs were not delivered because the mailman was unhappy about a transfer or something.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/mail-carrier-charged-n...
well what most people don't realize is that unless its first class it really never has to get there. My mother used to publish a dog breed magazine for the national club. So they used the special rates reserved for magazines and such.
there were times where the bins she brought to the PO were left on the loading docks. Once an entire bin was waterlogged so the PO just tossed it. Let alone no guarantee what state the magazines arrive in, hence its why you find some plastic wrapped or with a brown paper wrapper.
even your local distribution centers and individual post offices can affect the timeliness of deliveries. even most two day mail is not really a guarantee. You are more likely to get an Amazon package delivered by the PO on a Sunday than two day priority or similar.
there were times where the bins she brought to the PO were left on the loading docks. Once an entire bin was waterlogged so the PO just tossed it. Let alone no guarantee what state the magazines arrive in, hence its why you find some plastic wrapped or with a brown paper wrapper.
even your local distribution centers and individual post offices can affect the timeliness of deliveries. even most two day mail is not really a guarantee. You are more likely to get an Amazon package delivered by the PO on a Sunday than two day priority or similar.
I'd be interested in trying "Happy Holidays" vs. "Merry Christmas". I assume this only happens with hand-sorted mail as well. I'd be interested in breaking it down by zip code too.
I have a related anecdote. I live in Chicago, which has the slowest mail delivery in the country. I've lived in a number of zip codes, and I've never found the mail to get lost, merely delayed. However, I recently moved to a new place, and I've started losing mail. I've generally liked my mail people, but I'm convinced that the mail people at my new place are lazy. I've had issues with mail getting rained on because they never shut the top of the mailbox, I've had mail go missing. They have "signed" for certified mail for me. They'll leave a package on my steps, but they won't close the gate on the way out. They ignore the name printed on the mailbox and deliver mail for old tenants, despite mail regulations forbidding them to do so. Plus, I've tried talking to my mailperson, and she is always on the phone and refuses to talk to me. I know delivering mail isn't the most glamorous job, but have some pride.
I have a related anecdote. I live in Chicago, which has the slowest mail delivery in the country. I've lived in a number of zip codes, and I've never found the mail to get lost, merely delayed. However, I recently moved to a new place, and I've started losing mail. I've generally liked my mail people, but I'm convinced that the mail people at my new place are lazy. I've had issues with mail getting rained on because they never shut the top of the mailbox, I've had mail go missing. They have "signed" for certified mail for me. They'll leave a package on my steps, but they won't close the gate on the way out. They ignore the name printed on the mailbox and deliver mail for old tenants, despite mail regulations forbidding them to do so. Plus, I've tried talking to my mailperson, and she is always on the phone and refuses to talk to me. I know delivering mail isn't the most glamorous job, but have some pride.
>Plus, I've tried talking to my mailperson, and she is always on the phone and refuses to talk to me.
As much as we like to try to fix problems systemically, and place blame or praise on organizations as a whole, an awful lot comes down to the bottom of the pyramid/the top of the tree. I would blame most of those complaints on the one person who actually brings the mail to your house when the giant machine spits it all out.
I am fortunate to have a great relationship with our mail carrier. If you're reading this, Patricia, thank you!
As much as we like to try to fix problems systemically, and place blame or praise on organizations as a whole, an awful lot comes down to the bottom of the pyramid/the top of the tree. I would blame most of those complaints on the one person who actually brings the mail to your house when the giant machine spits it all out.
I am fortunate to have a great relationship with our mail carrier. If you're reading this, Patricia, thank you!
> I am fortunate to have a great relationship with our mail carrier.
In all fairness, this is the first time I've had problems with my mail carrier. Normally I've found my mail carriers friendly, helpful and conscientious. I appreciate how hard the job can be, especially in Chicago, where the weather is all over the place, and the traffic is a nightmare.
In all fairness, this is the first time I've had problems with my mail carrier. Normally I've found my mail carriers friendly, helpful and conscientious. I appreciate how hard the job can be, especially in Chicago, where the weather is all over the place, and the traffic is a nightmare.
Post offices certainly vary widely in terms of quality of service. The recurring problem that we have is that the delivery person won't actually attempt to deliver, even if you're at home and the package requires signature - they don't even knock on the door, just leave a sticker outside saying that you weren't there to sign, so please go pick it up.
I don't know if there's a good system in place to deal with it. So far, complaining, either directly to the supervisor over the phone and in person, or filing complaints on the USPS website, have resulted in no improvement. I think it's because they have a shortage of applicants for those jobs, and so are very reluctant to fire anyone; and reprimands just aren't working.
I don't know if there's a good system in place to deal with it. So far, complaining, either directly to the supervisor over the phone and in person, or filing complaints on the USPS website, have resulted in no improvement. I think it's because they have a shortage of applicants for those jobs, and so are very reluctant to fire anyone; and reprimands just aren't working.
I have a camera on my front door with a mobile app to view it.
I recently had out mailman do exactly this (while I was home and only a few feet from the door). I had to chase him down and he told me flat out that he had knocked, waited and I wasn't home.
I showed him the camera footage and I've never had a problem since (and I'd have weekly problems with this beforehand ).
I recently had out mailman do exactly this (while I was home and only a few feet from the door). I had to chase him down and he told me flat out that he had knocked, waited and I wasn't home.
I showed him the camera footage and I've never had a problem since (and I'd have weekly problems with this beforehand ).
They're generally good and I like to use them to ship since they have keys to my building and can drop boxes in the lobby.
However a few weeks ago they marked a package "delivered" when it wasn't (I got a text saying it was delivered which was nice). It came a 2 days later marked 3 minutes after the delivery was due. I figured it was stolen but the shipper indicated that this happens frequently and they wouldn't consider it missing for a couple days.
A relative works for the postal service, its a good gig, good benefits etc.. but they have to realize that for packages at least, the competition is formidable.
However a few weeks ago they marked a package "delivered" when it wasn't (I got a text saying it was delivered which was nice). It came a 2 days later marked 3 minutes after the delivery was due. I figured it was stolen but the shipper indicated that this happens frequently and they wouldn't consider it missing for a couple days.
A relative works for the postal service, its a good gig, good benefits etc.. but they have to realize that for packages at least, the competition is formidable.
This post is from (2013) [..] The difference was significant (p<0.001)
Just as an FYI, USPS closed and consulted a bunch of distribution centers from 2011 through early 2013. These closures were (according to postal employees I spoke with) the cause of lots of delivery problems. At that time, my business was shipping many hundreds of packages annually domestically and internationally and we would have problems with maybe 2 or 3 every year (which were promptly resolved by the USPS claims process). During the period of around 2012-2013, we were dealing with 3 or 4 delivery problems per month. Things have subsequently improved dramatically.
There may very well have been a discrimination problem (it certainly doesn't seem random and I can imagine a scenario where consolidating a distribution center might allow an employee to have a greater affect at disrupting traffic) but I just want to point out that was an especially problematic time for USPS so I wouldn't be surprised if it was a symptom of another problem.
Just as an FYI, USPS closed and consulted a bunch of distribution centers from 2011 through early 2013. These closures were (according to postal employees I spoke with) the cause of lots of delivery problems. At that time, my business was shipping many hundreds of packages annually domestically and internationally and we would have problems with maybe 2 or 3 every year (which were promptly resolved by the USPS claims process). During the period of around 2012-2013, we were dealing with 3 or 4 delivery problems per month. Things have subsequently improved dramatically.
There may very well have been a discrimination problem (it certainly doesn't seem random and I can imagine a scenario where consolidating a distribution center might allow an employee to have a greater affect at disrupting traffic) but I just want to point out that was an especially problematic time for USPS so I wouldn't be surprised if it was a symptom of another problem.
Not directly related, but I am reminded of this fun classic: http://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume6/v6i4/po...
The results are interesting.
But as a godless guy, I don't get it. Why would I care about the theological stance of the people who make my shoes? Why would a shoemaker want to advertise its religion, or lack thereof, on its shipping boxes? We can't leave tribal politics out of shoes now, even?
But as a godless guy, I don't get it. Why would I care about the theological stance of the people who make my shoes? Why would a shoemaker want to advertise its religion, or lack thereof, on its shipping boxes? We can't leave tribal politics out of shoes now, even?
>I don't get it
Let's say you're gay. You shoe maker belongs to the Mormon Church. When you purchase shoes from her, 10% of her income typically goes to the church[1]. The Mormon Church then uses that money to lobby the government to deny your civil rights, and succeeds[2]. It's not rational to contribute to your own oppression. That's why some people don't want to "leave tribal politics out of shoes". You're asking someone to leave politics out of politics.
[1] https://www.mormon.org/faq/church-tithing
[2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics/15marriage.htm...
Let's say you're gay. You shoe maker belongs to the Mormon Church. When you purchase shoes from her, 10% of her income typically goes to the church[1]. The Mormon Church then uses that money to lobby the government to deny your civil rights, and succeeds[2]. It's not rational to contribute to your own oppression. That's why some people don't want to "leave tribal politics out of shoes". You're asking someone to leave politics out of politics.
[1] https://www.mormon.org/faq/church-tithing
[2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics/15marriage.htm...
I suspect what you fund has an impact similar to what you vote.
Like movies? Ethical companies? Give them money.
Dislike what a corporation is doing or donates to? Don't give them money.
I'm just about to attempt switching my soap supply to Dr. Bronners. Family owned business with a 5X earning cap from the lowest paid employee to the CEO. They do some neat stuff: http://www.triplepundit.com/2016/09/dr-bronners-says-bye-bye...
Like movies? Ethical companies? Give them money.
Dislike what a corporation is doing or donates to? Don't give them money.
I'm just about to attempt switching my soap supply to Dr. Bronners. Family owned business with a 5X earning cap from the lowest paid employee to the CEO. They do some neat stuff: http://www.triplepundit.com/2016/09/dr-bronners-says-bye-bye...
I used their soap for years. As much as I like the company and what they do, I just don't like their soap for saily use. It's great for camping trips, though.
Have you ever tried the lavender scent? I can't handle most of their fragrances for daily use, either, but that one seems significantly easier on the nose and skin for some reason.
I don't really get it either, but apparently almost 400 kickstarter backers did [0]. I would guess its just branding, since differentiating yourself as a small shoe maker is probably very difficult.
[0] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1497254033/atheist-shoe...
[0] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1497254033/atheist-shoe...
Sounds like people that buy these shoes are the people who want to be different and really stand out.
It's meant to be ironic. They are also aware of how ridiculous it sounds.
I wonder if printing a tv on the box would help. Or maybe it only works for large boxes.
Are you referring to the article where a Bicycle manufacturer put "Television" on the box and saw a considerable change in the number of damaged goods received by the customers? :D
No surprise, it's a well known fact that Americans in general despise atheists, left to right. No amount of PR bullshit will change that fact, US is a extremely religious country.
Just use non branded tape. Problem solved.
Just use coloreds only drinking fountains. Problem solved.
Indeed, that's exactly what the post says they did.
A better solution would be to shut down the USPS.
(2013), please.
(2013)
it's completely understandable, especially for those missing cases, angel Gabriel took them by the lord's command.
eat those stinky shoes, you atheist scums, none can escape the lord's wrath.
eat those stinky shoes, you atheist scums, none can escape the lord's wrath.
Oh, man!! you accuse other people of having prejudices about yourself while making prejudices yourself.
Your control experiment was "we put labels and we did not put labels". That is a very weak one.
People in customs anywhere are going to stop and look at anything out of the ordinary. That is their job because drugs, diamonds and so on use to be in out of the ordinary packages.
We send 3d printer pieces around the world. We are part of an engineering NGO that promotes education using new technologies, specially in poor countries.
At first almost anything we sent was stopped, opened and inspected(and delayed). Now everything goes smooth.
Difference? We asked customs or people in other countries the actual reasons for being delivered late and the reasons made a lot of sense. Reasons like terrorism in Colombia for example.
They also teach us ways to improve our packaging so next time we send it much better. Around the world there are different conventions for putting serializing address for example. You put it in wrong order and the postman will have serious problems.
There is also people there(in customs or in the companies), when they know you it is way easier. Not because you are atheist or not, but because you can be a drug dealer and they could lose their job if they don't detect it.
Seriously, you are not that important. They have bigger problems to worry about.
Your control experiment was "we put labels and we did not put labels". That is a very weak one.
People in customs anywhere are going to stop and look at anything out of the ordinary. That is their job because drugs, diamonds and so on use to be in out of the ordinary packages.
We send 3d printer pieces around the world. We are part of an engineering NGO that promotes education using new technologies, specially in poor countries.
At first almost anything we sent was stopped, opened and inspected(and delayed). Now everything goes smooth.
Difference? We asked customs or people in other countries the actual reasons for being delivered late and the reasons made a lot of sense. Reasons like terrorism in Colombia for example.
They also teach us ways to improve our packaging so next time we send it much better. Around the world there are different conventions for putting serializing address for example. You put it in wrong order and the postman will have serious problems.
There is also people there(in customs or in the companies), when they know you it is way easier. Not because you are atheist or not, but because you can be a drug dealer and they could lose their job if they don't detect it.
Seriously, you are not that important. They have bigger problems to worry about.
While this is an interesting story, and it's sad to see this sort of stuff happening, I'm kind of more focused on what makes a shoe atheist. Are holy shoes blessed in some manner, or are all shoes naturally religious and some process is applied to the atheist shoes to make them secular? Based on what I can tell from the site, atheist shoes really just need to say "I'm an atheist" on the sole, but I want to believe there's more than that, because what sad individuals are buying shoes just for that. (And if people only buy the shoes because of the style, why do the shoes need to have such sacrilegious soles?)
People buy clothes with religious, political, and identity writing all the time.
Why would you call atheists "sad individuals" for doing the same?
Why would you call atheists "sad individuals" for doing the same?
As an agnostic, I wouldn't call them "sad," but it's like Neil deGrasse Tyson said. [0] It's fine to see people interested in golf congregating and talking about it, but it'd be stranger to see a bunch of anti-golfers congregating and talking about how they don't like to play golf.
[0] https://twitter.com/jonathan_blow/status/273582094448476161
[0] https://twitter.com/jonathan_blow/status/273582094448476161
If golf were responsible for as much tragedy as religion, congregations of anti-golfers would make a lot of sense.
No one cares if you're a non-golfer. Atheists in quite a lot of the country (and the world, for that matter), are a notable minority group. "Persecution" implies a bit more gravity that I'd aim for in describing it, but certainly there's enough of a cultural "thing" about it that it should no longer surprise anyone that atheists might want to congregate together and talk about it.
If someone influential had a plan to buy out some beloved public property and make a golf course there I'd bet there would be a lot of meetings of anti-golfers discussing of not so much how they hate golf but how much it's pointless and adversly affects their community.
Somewhat related: this memorable 20-second _Kids In The Hall_ skit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-pzFNTo8L8
That's a fair point: I got a little too snarky at the end of my comment. I guess I just view 'atheism' more as a lack of religion, rather than a religious option along the lines of Christianity, Islam, etc. Along that logic, I don't feel like I'd ever wear/display symbols of my atheism, but I guess that shouldn't deter others from doing so.
I don't get it either, but it's better than paying Nike for the privilege of wearing their advertising.
How is calling something "athiest" "sacrilegious"? Sacrilege is misuse of something that's sacred -how can athiest banded soles be sacred?
I think that sacrilege is something that takes two to tango, if I don't care that you think my soles are sacred, that's your problem, if you want to treat them specially buy you're own, mine are none of your business, all I can say is "meh"
I think that sacrilege is something that takes two to tango, if I don't care that you think my soles are sacred, that's your problem, if you want to treat them specially buy you're own, mine are none of your business, all I can say is "meh"
it's not meant to be taken so seriously
So 178 items sounds like a ridiculously limited amount of shipments to consider. The Atheist post seems to imply that they only sent 1 package to Michigan. At best, on average, 178 shipments is a shade over 3 shipments per state. Hardly enough for good statistics, and definitely not enough to draw any strong correlations.
Also, it's important to note that in the comments, Atheist mentions that they did not have tracking on their packages. In my experience, more people lie or are mistaken about their package delivery than packages actually being lost. Year after year, I'm continually surprised by how many people end up finding their packages after you tell them "According to the tracking number, it's been delivered. Could you check with anyone in you live with or share a building with who may have accepted it?"
TLDR: As bad as the USPS is, 178 packages sent internationally without any tracking seems like _far_ too few to draw any correlations about wide spread religious bias in the USPS.
Edit to add: Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that atheists aren't discriminated against in the US. (I'm pretty sure we're quite a few years away from even the possibility of a POTUS being an atheist.) I _am_ arguing that the post by Atheist (the company) doesn't indicate discrimination.