Italy’s rarest pasta(bbc.com)
bbc.com
Italy’s rarest pasta
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20161014-the-secret-behind-italys-rarest-pasta
138 comments
Do you think Su Filindeu tastes much different from any other pasta prepared with sheep broth and pecorino? It seems like it should, given the huge amount of work going into it, but since the ingredients are so simple, it also seems like it shouldn't make a huge difference...
Absolutely.
I'm not in Italy but in China. 'Lamian' or literally 'pulled noodles' are a staple dish for my own and colleagues lunches on most days. Staples in North China are largely wheat or corn based.
Dough is usually pre-kneaded to the consistency the chef prefers. 'Cut' is then done by pulling, doubling-up, re-pulling, etc, until reaching the right thickness that the stand desires.
The article mentions su filindeu as being thin and stretched, with drying into a web-like layered structure. This is certainly going to be interesting and a bit different.
But this process of pulling and cutting varies chef-by-chef. Arguments break out a lunch between colleagues who prefer 'thin' noodles vs 'regular' vs 'think'. Going to a single place and ordering a preference just doesn't work. 'thin' where a chef makes the dough thick may be thin in diameter, but not in mouth texture. 'thick' (or wide and thick) in a restaurant that provides regular or thinly kneaded dough just doesn't feel satisfyingly chewy in a restaurant that doesn't routinely serve a thicker dough - not enough chew.
And then there's the flour used.
The difference that technique brings is huge. Liken it to bread: flour with a consistent level of ¬14-15g of protein (similar to flour used for pasta, though usually different type) per 100g can result in remarkably different breads depending on kneading, resting, forming, and remarkably more techniques.
I'm not in Italy but in China. 'Lamian' or literally 'pulled noodles' are a staple dish for my own and colleagues lunches on most days. Staples in North China are largely wheat or corn based.
Dough is usually pre-kneaded to the consistency the chef prefers. 'Cut' is then done by pulling, doubling-up, re-pulling, etc, until reaching the right thickness that the stand desires.
The article mentions su filindeu as being thin and stretched, with drying into a web-like layered structure. This is certainly going to be interesting and a bit different.
But this process of pulling and cutting varies chef-by-chef. Arguments break out a lunch between colleagues who prefer 'thin' noodles vs 'regular' vs 'think'. Going to a single place and ordering a preference just doesn't work. 'thin' where a chef makes the dough thick may be thin in diameter, but not in mouth texture. 'thick' (or wide and thick) in a restaurant that provides regular or thinly kneaded dough just doesn't feel satisfyingly chewy in a restaurant that doesn't routinely serve a thicker dough - not enough chew.
And then there's the flour used.
The difference that technique brings is huge. Liken it to bread: flour with a consistent level of ¬14-15g of protein (similar to flour used for pasta, though usually different type) per 100g can result in remarkably different breads depending on kneading, resting, forming, and remarkably more techniques.
Out of curiosity, are you using ¬ to represent "approximately" in place of the ~ (tilde) symbol? The only place I've ever encountered the ¬ symbol is in formal logic, where it represents [not].
Typo.
US keyboard in UK mode, pressing the key marked ~ resulted in ¬.
US keyboard in UK mode, pressing the key marked ~ resulted in ¬.
I love lamian. It's hard to find in the US (especially here in Minnesota) but there's one Szechuan place near that does a really nice dish with that type of noodles in chili vinegar sauce with crushed peanuts.
I was curious and went to look up lamian on Wikipedia. Found a link on the page for chow mein, which I followed out of curiosity. It was fascinating to see the way Minnesota chow mein was singled out as particularly bad. Unfortunately in my experience it's absolutely true. That was my introduction to Chinese food as a kid, so sometimes I'll have a little for nostalgia, but in the end it disappoints. I think if I had some that was well prepared I would be in heaven, as in the movie Ratatouille.
You can see here how difficult it is to make.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaeyFyQemDw
Basically, Ramsay (not really a slouch at cooking) is trying to make lamain and he's getting a huge bitching out by the existing chef who tell him it's going to take him ten years to get good at it.
I think this video is a good counterpoint to when Ramsay is outclassed, knows it, and is respectful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaeyFyQemDw
Basically, Ramsay (not really a slouch at cooking) is trying to make lamain and he's getting a huge bitching out by the existing chef who tell him it's going to take him ten years to get good at it.
I think this video is a good counterpoint to when Ramsay is outclassed, knows it, and is respectful.
I'm in MN too. What is the restaurant called?
I'd guess Little Szechuan[1]. Note that the original University Ave location in St Paul is now hot pot only.
1: http://littleszechuan.com
1: http://littleszechuan.com
Actually, the Tea House nearby. I _think_ it's lamian. At least it has that super chewy texture. I have no idea if they're fresh made or not, though. Still, about as good as you're going to get in the area, I think.
Where, please. Really good Chinese in MN is hard to find.
You're forgetting another way to process the noodles. Knife cut (刀削). That gives a completely different mouth feel and form factor.
That's my favorite kind of noodle, and it's hard to find in the states in general, as it takes a long time to get good at it and you generally don't batch make the noodles.
That's my favorite kind of noodle, and it's hard to find in the states in general, as it takes a long time to get good at it and you generally don't batch make the noodles.
I didn't taste it yet, but texture and preparation affect a lot the taste of pasta, in general.
Also, this is made with semolina flour, which is different (and much better IMHO) from the flour used to make pasta usually (in Italy and in the rest of the world).
Also, this is made with semolina flour, which is different (and much better IMHO) from the flour used to make pasta usually (in Italy and in the rest of the world).
I wouldn't call semolina unusual at all. De Cecco [1], probably the best of the bigger Italian brands, makes all their pasta products with 100% semolina (pasta di semola di grano duro). Bigger, cheaper brands such as Barilla use either the lower-grade durum flour or a mix of semolina and flour.
(For those confused with the terminology: Both come from durum wheat, but semolina is milled more coarsely from the bran, whereas durum flour is everything else, milled to a finer flour.
[1] http://www.dececco.it/us_us/
(For those confused with the terminology: Both come from durum wheat, but semolina is milled more coarsely from the bran, whereas durum flour is everything else, milled to a finer flour.
[1] http://www.dececco.it/us_us/
You're very right, and thanks for the detailed clarification!
I got confused with the terminology, apparently my brain doesn't work well when trying to speak three languages at the same time :)
I got confused with the terminology, apparently my brain doesn't work well when trying to speak three languages at the same time :)
Based on the description of preparation, the texture would be the defining difference, not the taste.
Texture defines taste.
https://flavourjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/20...
https://flavourjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/20...
According to your citation, texture and taste and aroma are separate characteristics with some overlap that combine to define flavor. The defining component difference in Su Filindeu would be texture, enhancing the flavor.
That's awesome thanks. Its always been intuitive for me that texture would affect how air mixes with food in the mouth and would also affect flavour distribution of sauces in the mouth but its good to see someone put actual study into it
As an aside, if you don't mind, how close is Sardo to Latin? Can you rather easily read Latin texts (assuming you haven't studied Latin, and are proficient in Sardo). Thanks!
I speak Sardo, and I studied Latin for 5 years at High School, and I was very bad at it.
So I would say that "modern" Sardo (defining the "old" as the first written texts some centuries ago) it's close enough to Latin to see where every word comes from, but definitely too far to give you understanding.
I can understand Spanish though :) (context: we've been in the Spanish Kingdom for like 400 years, and the language have been influenced a lot, many shared words.)
So I would say that "modern" Sardo (defining the "old" as the first written texts some centuries ago) it's close enough to Latin to see where every word comes from, but definitely too far to give you understanding.
I can understand Spanish though :) (context: we've been in the Spanish Kingdom for like 400 years, and the language have been influenced a lot, many shared words.)
How close is it to Romansh, the old raetic/latin language still spoken in Grisons, Switzerland? Could you understand them?
Given that I've never been in Grisons, but I heard it only from YT, I would say that it's not very close with Sardo.
I can understand them though, but mostly because I know Italian. (Romansh also sounds to me somewhat Portuguese and Slavic at the same time, it's a very cool language).
I can understand them though, but mostly because I know Italian. (Romansh also sounds to me somewhat Portuguese and Slavic at the same time, it's a very cool language).
Neat, thanks!
I do not speak Sardo, as I speak another Sardinian language, but I guess I know enough to comment. Sardo spelling is probably closer to Latin than most other romance languages and some sentences are surprisingly close to their Latin equivalent.
I would say that it still lack many Latin features (for example cases, neutral gender), and sentence construction is generally different enough that native speaker wouldn't have a significant advantage to other romance language speakers.
I would say that it still lack many Latin features (for example cases, neutral gender), and sentence construction is generally different enough that native speaker wouldn't have a significant advantage to other romance language speakers.
> Can you rather easily read Latin texts (assuming you haven't studied Latin, and are proficient in Sardo).
I guess the statement about "closeness" comes from the study (Pei, Mario 1949) referenced in the Wikipedia page about Sardinian language that somehow developed a metric and tested several languages against their parent one. Apparently Sardo has the lowest distance from Latin among Romance languages.
On a more practical side, I speak Sardo and studied Latin in high school. I cannot easily read Latin texts without a dictionary at hand and a little grammar review. I guess their similarity arises when you compare the written languages but most of us experience Sardo as a spoken-only language and many find it difficult to follow in written form. On the contrary we experience Latin as a written only language. Who knows, probably it would be a lot easier for us to understand spoken Latin.
I guess the statement about "closeness" comes from the study (Pei, Mario 1949) referenced in the Wikipedia page about Sardinian language that somehow developed a metric and tested several languages against their parent one. Apparently Sardo has the lowest distance from Latin among Romance languages.
On a more practical side, I speak Sardo and studied Latin in high school. I cannot easily read Latin texts without a dictionary at hand and a little grammar review. I guess their similarity arises when you compare the written languages but most of us experience Sardo as a spoken-only language and many find it difficult to follow in written form. On the contrary we experience Latin as a written only language. Who knows, probably it would be a lot easier for us to understand spoken Latin.
This raises a good point. Even when languages are "close" it usually doesn't mean "mutually intelligible" unless they are really close. I grew up in the US but I have Italian parents who came over somewhat recently in immigration terms - the 1970's. My first language is/was Standard Italian, as my grandmother really pushed my parents not to teach me their dialects. My mom is from Genova and my father from a small town in Abruzzo called Alfedena - since you are Italian, you probably know, very different dialects. Zeneize is considered its own language. Anyhow, to my point, Standard Italian is extremely close to the spoken dialects in my family, probably closer than Sardo to Latin, but I still have trouble understanding either side of the family in dialect. Part of that, of course, is that I was raised outside of Italy, but not entirely as I don't have trouble with the Florentine dialect since I speak pretty close to what they do.
And don't get me started on written versus spoken! Then again, my dad's dialect might look like Welsh if anyone thought to write it down. But on my mom's side, Zeneize does have a sort-of official written form, and if I read carefully I sometimes have an idea of what's going on :)
And don't get me started on written versus spoken! Then again, my dad's dialect might look like Welsh if anyone thought to write it down. But on my mom's side, Zeneize does have a sort-of official written form, and if I read carefully I sometimes have an idea of what's going on :)
My girlfriend is Sardinian and speaks Sardo. She's said to me in the past that it's fairly close to Latin, certainly closer than other languages (French/Spanish for example), but Sardo is generally a mix of Latin, Italian, with a few Spanish words.
Also worth noting there are different dialects of Sardo (such as Logudorese, in the north, if I remember the name correctly). And some dialects are closer to Latin than others.
In Italy/Sardinia dialects can be so far apart from one another that it's difficult to understand one another.
Also worth noting there are different dialects of Sardo (such as Logudorese, in the north, if I remember the name correctly). And some dialects are closer to Latin than others.
In Italy/Sardinia dialects can be so far apart from one another that it's difficult to understand one another.
Some of the dialects are so far apart that they are actual languages distinct from Italian.
If you search in the ISO list of languages[0] you can find neapolitan, sardinian as distinct languages different from italian.
[0]http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/English_list.php
[0]http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/English_list.php
Sardinian (Sardo) is a separate language, not a dialect of Italian. Road signs (town/city names) in Sardinia are often in both Sardo and Italian. You can think of it like the difference between Welsh/English.
> You can think of it like the difference between Welsh/English.
I don't think that's quite right: Welsh is a Gaelic language and English is Germanic, so they're from different families, while Sardinian & Italian are much more closely related.
I don't think that's quite right: Welsh is a Gaelic language and English is Germanic, so they're from different families, while Sardinian & Italian are much more closely related.
Possibly more like Scots language(not Scottish Gaelic) and English
http://www.ayecan.com/read_scots/burns_museum.html
> Though his position in society wis ower laich for him tae hae the richt tae vote, Robert wis nanetheless passionate aboot politics and made his writin desk his ballot box. Scunnerin the weel-daein and pooerfu, hooanever could prove a fykie business.
> Robert Burns loved the lassies. He fell in love aften an wi ease, and wi mony weemun frae a wheen o backgrunds. The wey he treatit his lovers wis different ilka time, and ilka relationship affected Robert in its ain weys.
http://www.ayecan.com/read_scots/burns_museum.html
> Though his position in society wis ower laich for him tae hae the richt tae vote, Robert wis nanetheless passionate aboot politics and made his writin desk his ballot box. Scunnerin the weel-daein and pooerfu, hooanever could prove a fykie business.
> Robert Burns loved the lassies. He fell in love aften an wi ease, and wi mony weemun frae a wheen o backgrunds. The wey he treatit his lovers wis different ilka time, and ilka relationship affected Robert in its ain weys.
Sardinian and Italian are much much closer than Welsh and English. Speaking Italian, I can make out written Sardo kinda sorta ok, and I'm not a native Italian speaker. As an English speaker, I can't make heads or tales of Welsh.
Italy has only been a united country for about 150 years, so it hasn't been that long since Italian (as we know it today) is widely spoken. Previously, people tended to speak their local Romance language. See the intro and history sections of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian language.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language has some information.
Beyond that, it frankly just "looks" a bit more latin, with s's at the end of words for plurals, and more u's than Italian has.
I think it also has fewer loan words, and has staid in some cases closer to older Latin words: 'domu' for house rather than 'casa'.
Beyond that, it frankly just "looks" a bit more latin, with s's at the end of words for plurals, and more u's than Italian has.
I think it also has fewer loan words, and has staid in some cases closer to older Latin words: 'domu' for house rather than 'casa'.
Sardo is about as close to Latin as Italian, Castilian, and Catalan.
BTW Sardo is actually not one language, but a set of languages spoken in the island.
BTW Sardo is actually not one language, but a set of languages spoken in the island.
I've never heard of this language, is it specially known for being particularly close to Latin or something? Why would you expect it to be any more mutually intelligible with Latin than any other modern Latin dialect is? (I mean French, Spanish, etc.)
From TFA: Residents here still speak Sardo, the closest living form of Latin.
Ah, I must have skimmed it too quickly to notice that. Thanks!
Anyway, I doubt it is close enough to Latin to be mutually intelligible, as all modern Romance languages are derived from Vulgar Latin, which is known to be very different form the written Classical Latin.
Anyway, I doubt it is close enough to Latin to be mutually intelligible, as all modern Romance languages are derived from Vulgar Latin, which is known to be very different form the written Classical Latin.
There are lots of languages you've probably never heard of :). I realized the same when I started to read about the family of Romance languages to learn what the concept was all about. Not being an expert, it does seem to me to be a theme that languages of relatively isolated communities tend to me significantly more conservative in their evolution than in more cosmopolitan communities.
I'm heading there next summer for a couple of weeks. Could you recommend some must do places to see, things to do? Would be really interested to hear from your perspective.
Gotta have that Sard worm-cheese
How is Sardinia different to mainland Italy?
This makes me think strongly of Matthew B. Crawford's books ("The World Beyond Your Head", "Shop Class as Soulcraft"). He focuses directly on difficult techniques like this, things that require both intellectual focus and physical technique to master - craftsmanship. He believes that this is the finest work we can do. Pure intellectual abstraction doesn't exercise our minds fully, we need to engage with the physical world and its complexities as well.
Think about it - this is so incredibly sensitive to the exact consistency of the pasta dough, it must change by temperature, humidity, time of day, barometric pressure... to make it work, she just has to feel the pasta, to know pasta in a way that can only be done with years of manual effort.
That's why they can't build a machine to do it. They can't control the conditions well enough.
Think about it - this is so incredibly sensitive to the exact consistency of the pasta dough, it must change by temperature, humidity, time of day, barometric pressure... to make it work, she just has to feel the pasta, to know pasta in a way that can only be done with years of manual effort.
That's why they can't build a machine to do it. They can't control the conditions well enough.
I fail to believe such a machine cannot be made. I do however believe it may not be economical to do so. If it can be measured then why cannot it be reproduced? None of the values you listed cannot be measured and accounted for.
She has three listed ingredients, however I am curious how much perspiration is in the final product, surely her hands impart something through the skin contact.
Finally the drying process would have its own effect, after preparing it how much of a difference is there between it and another pasta? What exactly do they consider the differences? Is it purely texture, if so then just the preparation of the final dish can affect what you will perceive
She has three listed ingredients, however I am curious how much perspiration is in the final product, surely her hands impart something through the skin contact.
Finally the drying process would have its own effect, after preparing it how much of a difference is there between it and another pasta? What exactly do they consider the differences? Is it purely texture, if so then just the preparation of the final dish can affect what you will perceive
You should read Crawford, then. Read Sidney Dekker's "Drift into Failure" as well. Complexity is the problem. Complex, evolving, interacting conditions. You can't just measure in a vacuum when you have many interacting variables.
What you're talking about is the result of the reductionist intellectual tradition. And it's been fantastic at many things - it built our modern world. But it cannot solve every problem. Not everything humans do can be reduced to simple measurement and process.
What you're talking about is the result of the reductionist intellectual tradition. And it's been fantastic at many things - it built our modern world. But it cannot solve every problem. Not everything humans do can be reduced to simple measurement and process.
Blocked in the UK. Can someone help us read our own website?
Edit: why is this at -3? You guys are assholes.
Edit: why is this at -3? You guys are assholes.
You downvoted since our machine learning algorithm predicted you were about to call us assholes.
It's not hosted on "our own website" - our licence fee isn't paying for it, neither is HM Government; hence we cannot read it because the BBC cannot engage in commercial activity - I assume it has ads, or maybe a paywall - in the UK.
> BBC WORLDWIDE IS THE MAIN COMMERCIAL ARM AND A WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY OF THE BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION (BBC). OUR VISION IS TO BUILD THE BBC'S BRANDS, AUDIENCES, COMMERCIAL RETURNS AND REPUTATION ACROSS THE WORLD.
> BBC Worldwide helps keep the Licence Fee as low as possible, returning £222.2m to the BBC in the last financial year, an increase of 17.6% from 2014/15, adjusted for disposals, and equivalent to 13.0% of BBC Television content funding in the year.
Why, though, they don't duplicate the content with the IP-restriction instead of paywall/ads/whatever it is, I'm not quite sure.
> BBC WORLDWIDE IS THE MAIN COMMERCIAL ARM AND A WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY OF THE BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION (BBC). OUR VISION IS TO BUILD THE BBC'S BRANDS, AUDIENCES, COMMERCIAL RETURNS AND REPUTATION ACROSS THE WORLD.
> BBC Worldwide helps keep the Licence Fee as low as possible, returning £222.2m to the BBC in the last financial year, an increase of 17.6% from 2014/15, adjusted for disposals, and equivalent to 13.0% of BBC Television content funding in the year.
Why, though, they don't duplicate the content with the IP-restriction instead of paywall/ads/whatever it is, I'm not quite sure.
I found another link [0] to the article at the bbc.co.uk domain but it seems to immediately redirect to the article hosted at bbc.com.
[0] www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01gns25
[0] www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01gns25
Try any of these:
Tor Browser archive.is archive.org Google cache Bing cache Coral cache
Tor Browser archive.is archive.org Google cache Bing cache Coral cache
Did you try Google Cache?
have they tried getting chinese la mien chefs to duplicate her work?
Also relevant: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299605105_The_Compu...
Also relevant: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299605105_The_Compu...
Without knowing exactly what is required for making su filindeu, the video of Paola Abraini looks to me a lot like a la mian maker in training. I wouldn't be too surprised if a la mian chef picks it up right away and starts making su filindeu ten times faster than she does, instantly turning the "rarest pasta in the world" into "a pasta from Sardinia".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHGZLjJ1CAk&t=40s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHGZLjJ1CAk&t=40s
In the spirit of famous-English-chefs-unable-to-make-thin-noodles, here's Gordon Ramsay unable to make la mian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaeyFyQemDw
Do they always cut his shows such that it's impossible to tell what's going on, or is that one just extra mutilated?
I'm actually incredibly interested to know if su filindeu is historically linked to la mian in any way (apart from the obvious pasta came from China argument)
It didn't come from China: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13760559
It's not exactly impossible that both arrived at something similar independently.
It's not exactly impossible that both arrived at something similar independently.
Your link describes the arabs bringing it to Sicily somewhere around 8th/9th century. So? Do we know they didn't get it from China? Of course Italian pasta is unique, it has had ample time to develop its own culture around it, but I've never seen evidence that the initial idea was born in Italy. It would be a bit like the Japanese claiming they invented Tofu. Well, no, but does it matter?
If you've never had handmade pasta in Italy, you're missing out.
My mother in law makes ravioli by hand for special occasions:
* She mixes the flour, water and salt * That is then spread out into sheets with the help of a hand-cranked machine. * She then uses a cutting roller to cut those into the right shapes. * Then the filling (mix of greens) goes into each one by hand and it's closed up. * They get cooked. * At the end they get a healthy bunch of ragù (bolognese meat sauce, if you must) on them.
I feel guilty eating them, because it takes hours and hours to do all that, and then it's gone in a few minutes it seems like.
My mother in law makes ravioli by hand for special occasions:
* She mixes the flour, water and salt * That is then spread out into sheets with the help of a hand-cranked machine. * She then uses a cutting roller to cut those into the right shapes. * Then the filling (mix of greens) goes into each one by hand and it's closed up. * They get cooked. * At the end they get a healthy bunch of ragù (bolognese meat sauce, if you must) on them.
I feel guilty eating them, because it takes hours and hours to do all that, and then it's gone in a few minutes it seems like.
> I feel guilty eating them
If you want to honor her time you shouldn't waste a moment on guilt, you should just let the taste of the pasta linger as long as you can, until it is interrupted by something else besides guilt!
You can get back all of those moments she put in by savoring the dish. That's the beauty of well made food: it will tell quite a story in your body if you let it.
If you want to honor her time you shouldn't waste a moment on guilt, you should just let the taste of the pasta linger as long as you can, until it is interrupted by something else besides guilt!
You can get back all of those moments she put in by savoring the dish. That's the beauty of well made food: it will tell quite a story in your body if you let it.
Maybe you should gift her with a newer pasta machine. :)
Pasta certainly isn't a staple of Finnish cuisine, but through family I have Italian relatives, and my parents have been making handmade pasta since before durum wheat was widely available here (it certainly was a very different world back then). Their hand cranked pasta machine has among other “heads” a tool for ravioli, taking in two sheets of pasta dough and automatically applying contents for each one it cuts. Certainly faster than filling them one by one, can't tell if you can taste the difference. (I really used to like pasta, shame that certain grains and I don't get well together.)
Pasta certainly isn't a staple of Finnish cuisine, but through family I have Italian relatives, and my parents have been making handmade pasta since before durum wheat was widely available here (it certainly was a very different world back then). Their hand cranked pasta machine has among other “heads” a tool for ravioli, taking in two sheets of pasta dough and automatically applying contents for each one it cuts. Certainly faster than filling them one by one, can't tell if you can taste the difference. (I really used to like pasta, shame that certain grains and I don't get well together.)
You can make handmade pasta in any country...
I make my own pasta and I still feel guilty eating it.
Hello! Author of the story here. Really appreciate all the interest and wanted to jump in on a few questions in the thread.
Taste? It's delicious. The pasta is so thin that it really melts in your mouth. I've tasted it many times now and think that the trick is to not put in too much pecorino.
Sardo? As many Sardi on this thread have correctly pointed out, Sardo is a separate language from Italian, as opposed to a dialect. Like Italian, Romansch, and Spanish, it's rooted in Latin. There are many variations of it and each region speaks a different version. Barbaricino (what they speak around Nuoro) is considered the least Italian-ized version of it. There are more than 500 words that are nearly identical to Latin (domus, janna, etc) with more distant words (stemming from Sardinia's earliest indigenous population) that often refer to geological formations or animals (giara, marxani, nuraghe, etc).
Taste? It's delicious. The pasta is so thin that it really melts in your mouth. I've tasted it many times now and think that the trick is to not put in too much pecorino.
Sardo? As many Sardi on this thread have correctly pointed out, Sardo is a separate language from Italian, as opposed to a dialect. Like Italian, Romansch, and Spanish, it's rooted in Latin. There are many variations of it and each region speaks a different version. Barbaricino (what they speak around Nuoro) is considered the least Italian-ized version of it. There are more than 500 words that are nearly identical to Latin (domus, janna, etc) with more distant words (stemming from Sardinia's earliest indigenous population) that often refer to geological formations or animals (giara, marxani, nuraghe, etc).
What I am about to say is no solution, but: I can't quite understand why don't people don't begin by trying and make a basic YouTube video about this subject.
Don't want the tradition to fade? Spread it as much as possible.
Don't want the tradition to fade? Spread it as much as possible.
Sure.
Here's Jamie Oliver attempting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHGZLjJ1CAk (this might be the video linked in the article, that one failed for me). It doesn't seem very easy.
Here's Jamie Oliver attempting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHGZLjJ1CAk (this might be the video linked in the article, that one failed for me). It doesn't seem very easy.
It's great to see the pasta-making in action, but damn, that guy is annoying.
Whether that's true or not I don't think your observation adds much to the conversation.
Wow, what I nice way to counter the micro aggression of the parent post. Well done, I'll be stealing that.
As per the article, Abraini has been filmed so that the technique can be preserved, at least partially, although it seems hard to replicate.
There's a bunch of videos on YouTube showing the technique. They even filmed both remaining practitioners.
It appears to be a normal pasta recipe. We know plain water is used. We don't know how heavily salted the salt water is.
Perhaps because I can't speak Italian, but I can't find a recipe. If they really want to preserve it they should probably start with that in multiple languages. Then at least we can experiment with the technique without having to make too many guesses.
I'm pretty sure we'd figure out the required elasticity fairly quickly.
It appears to be a normal pasta recipe. We know plain water is used. We don't know how heavily salted the salt water is.
Perhaps because I can't speak Italian, but I can't find a recipe. If they really want to preserve it they should probably start with that in multiple languages. Then at least we can experiment with the technique without having to make too many guesses.
I'm pretty sure we'd figure out the required elasticity fairly quickly.
The recipe is described in TFA, the issue is not the recipe itself it's the actual manufacture, the hard work and the educated touch to know the necessary adjustments and when the consistency is just right:
> “There are only three ingredients: semolina wheat, water and salt,” Abraini said, vigorously kneading the dough back and forth. “But since everything is done by hand, the most important ingredient is elbow grease.”
> Abraini patiently explained how you work the pasta thoroughly until it reaches a consistency reminiscent of modelling clay, then divide the dough into smaller sections and continue working it into a rolled-cylindrical shape. Then comes the hardest part, a process she calls, “understanding the dough with your hands.” When she feels that it needs to be more elastic, she dips her fingers into a bowl of salt water. When it needs more moisture, she dips them into a separate bowl of regular water. “It can take years to understand,” she beamed. “It’s like a game with your hands. But once you achieve it, then the magic happens.”
> When the semolina reached just the right consistency, Abraini picked up the cylindrical strand to stretch and fold the dough, doubling it as she pressed the heads of the su filindeu into her palms. She repeated this sequence in a fluid motion eight times. With each sweeping pull, the dough became thinner and thinner. After eight sequences, she was left with 256 even strands about half as wide as angel-hair pasta. She then carefully laid the strands on a circular base, one on top of another, to form a cross, trimming any excess from the ends with her fingers before repeating the process over and over.
> When she’d formed three layers, she took the base outside to dry in the Sardinian sun. After several hours, the layers hardened into delicate sheets of white razor-thin threads resembling stitched lace. Abraini then broke the circular sheets into crude strips and packed them into boxes, ready for the San Francesco feast’s prior to place them in boiling sheep’s broth with grated pecorino and offer it as a thick soup to the pilgrims.
> “There are only three ingredients: semolina wheat, water and salt,” Abraini said, vigorously kneading the dough back and forth. “But since everything is done by hand, the most important ingredient is elbow grease.”
> Abraini patiently explained how you work the pasta thoroughly until it reaches a consistency reminiscent of modelling clay, then divide the dough into smaller sections and continue working it into a rolled-cylindrical shape. Then comes the hardest part, a process she calls, “understanding the dough with your hands.” When she feels that it needs to be more elastic, she dips her fingers into a bowl of salt water. When it needs more moisture, she dips them into a separate bowl of regular water. “It can take years to understand,” she beamed. “It’s like a game with your hands. But once you achieve it, then the magic happens.”
> When the semolina reached just the right consistency, Abraini picked up the cylindrical strand to stretch and fold the dough, doubling it as she pressed the heads of the su filindeu into her palms. She repeated this sequence in a fluid motion eight times. With each sweeping pull, the dough became thinner and thinner. After eight sequences, she was left with 256 even strands about half as wide as angel-hair pasta. She then carefully laid the strands on a circular base, one on top of another, to form a cross, trimming any excess from the ends with her fingers before repeating the process over and over.
> When she’d formed three layers, she took the base outside to dry in the Sardinian sun. After several hours, the layers hardened into delicate sheets of white razor-thin threads resembling stitched lace. Abraini then broke the circular sheets into crude strips and packed them into boxes, ready for the San Francesco feast’s prior to place them in boiling sheep’s broth with grated pecorino and offer it as a thick soup to the pilgrims.
I read the article. For a pasta that is so technically difficult, listing ingredients without quantities and no description of the dough at its most elastic state is not a recipe.
Even if we assume a standard pasta recipe, what's in the sheep broth!?
Even if we assume a standard pasta recipe, what's in the sheep broth!?
You're basically asking for a recipy on how to make Jiro's sushi. It doesn't really help, you can get all those amounts and timings just right, but the actual value is in the muscle memory and applied knowledge of the people who've trained close to teo decades in going through the motions and perfecting their craft. In doing so they adjust for all kinds of environmental influences through their training. I think we're closer to having a conscious AI than to have robots with the ability of human hands.
As far as I can tell looking at Youtube videos, any Chinese chef able to hand pull noodles would learn how to do it in 5 minutes. It's an amazingly similar technique. I'd say it's more an issue of finding local people willing to learn it.
> In the last few years, Italy’s premier food and wine magazine, Gambero Rosso, has invited her to Rome twice so they can film her preparing the dish.
Video of it being made
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuRLaO1G5A0
Thanks for the video, really helps me understand the process.
However she's not folding it eight times. A commenter on the video mentions that she's doing it wrong, strings are huge.
However she's not folding it eight times. A commenter on the video mentions that she's doing it wrong, strings are huge.
In that case have some https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKN9MajEVOQ
Sounds like a similar process to hand-pulled cotton candy, just with pasta instead of sugar.
here's how to make that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auRNHI2nkIU
here's how to make that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auRNHI2nkIU
A lot of embellishments in the article.
The pasta can be found at the San Francesco di Lula festival, which can be comfortably reached by car. Only a few pilgrims may do it on foot, some barefoot, as a form of devotion, but these days it's increasingly rarer
The pasta can be found at the San Francesco di Lula festival, which can be comfortably reached by car. Only a few pilgrims may do it on foot, some barefoot, as a form of devotion, but these days it's increasingly rarer
>Last year, a team of engineers from Barilla pasta came to see if they could reproduce her technique with a machine. They couldn’t.
You can tell that Eliot is a pessimist; because if they couldn't design a mechanism to make this pasta on the first visit, it must be impossible!
Admittedly though, it does seem like a lot of work.
You can tell that Eliot is a pessimist; because if they couldn't design a mechanism to make this pasta on the first visit, it must be impossible!
Admittedly though, it does seem like a lot of work.
I find it quite annoying that many outlets (be it articles, TV documentaries or tourist guides) always try to point out how something arcane can not be reproduced by modern technology or that the "knowledge has been lost". But it seems like people like the narrative.
With all the talk of the loss of manufacturing jobs maybe they can instead talk about making this pasta. It might get some people to start producing it in the US.
The name of the pasta in the article is: Su Filindeu
Do you think the process could be automatized? from my naive perspective, that doesn't seem a tremendously difficult task.
From the article:
"Last year, a team of engineers from Barilla pasta came to see if they could reproduce her technique with a machine. They couldn’t"
"Last year, a team of engineers from Barilla pasta came to see if they could reproduce her technique with a machine. They couldn’t"
I expect it certainly can be automated, but there's an ROI to be considered. If it was just a matter of new dies and some process tweaks using existing machinery, it absolutely would be done and that's likely what the Barilla people were trying for.
If new technology has to be developed to match the manual process, that's far a riskier proposition just for the purpose of adding yet another box of pasta in fancy grocery stores.
It probably makes far more sense, economically, for a small number of elite chefs to learn and replicate the technique for their restaurants. I am sure folks are trying.
If new technology has to be developed to match the manual process, that's far a riskier proposition just for the purpose of adding yet another box of pasta in fancy grocery stores.
It probably makes far more sense, economically, for a small number of elite chefs to learn and replicate the technique for their restaurants. I am sure folks are trying.
She's measuring elasticity and water content through feel. Then she applied the correct amount of salted water or regular water.
My assumption was they didn't have an existing way to measure elasticity / water content on pasta that thin economically.
To your point, new tech == tell professors who might care and move on.
My assumption was they didn't have an existing way to measure elasticity / water content on pasta that thin economically.
To your point, new tech == tell professors who might care and move on.
> I expect it certainly can be automated
Why would you expect that? Many processes are resistant to automaton.
I would be surprised if it could be automated. The amount of nerves and muscles in the hands is enormous, and many of the materials have no artificial equivalents. Cameras don't even get you close because you need to see inside the dough to make measurements. And quite a lot of the process isn't observed at all, it's modeled in the chef's head and hands. Things like the ratio of muscles around her fingers encode reactions to data coming in from nerves. Very difficult to study let alone replicate. A process like hand pulled pasta seems like the absolute worst case for automation.
Why would you expect that? Many processes are resistant to automaton.
I would be surprised if it could be automated. The amount of nerves and muscles in the hands is enormous, and many of the materials have no artificial equivalents. Cameras don't even get you close because you need to see inside the dough to make measurements. And quite a lot of the process isn't observed at all, it's modeled in the chef's head and hands. Things like the ratio of muscles around her fingers encode reactions to data coming in from nerves. Very difficult to study let alone replicate. A process like hand pulled pasta seems like the absolute worst case for automation.
I'm not suggesting it would be easy, but there are many manufacturing processes that routinely do things which are staggeringly difficult and sensitive in all kinds of domains. It really is a matter of understanding the process and compensating for the things a machine can't do in the same way as a human.
I posit that the ROI for such an endeavor would be disappointing in that all you will have is another type of fancy pasta. That would sort of take the magic and cache out of the dish as well.
I posit that the ROI for such an endeavor would be disappointing in that all you will have is another type of fancy pasta. That would sort of take the magic and cache out of the dish as well.
As I wrote here in another comment: I expect conscious AI to be achieved sooner than replicating what human hands can do.
My bad. For some reason I missed that part.
When reading it, I thought about another HN post in which a Japanese classified cucumbers using deep learning and thought that maybe that could be applied too to get the right texture and moisture.
When reading it, I thought about another HN post in which a Japanese classified cucumbers using deep learning and thought that maybe that could be applied too to get the right texture and moisture.
If I wanted to replicate this, I'd try to get a machine to make the strands and then lay them by hand. Laying pasta that thin in an accurate way with a robotic arm requires amazing computer vision and such, but pulling dough in exactly this certain way is machineworthy.
I'd almost expect the opposite. According to the article, most of the difficult comes from managing the consistency of the dough. Salt water and water need to be added throughout the pulling process to prevent tearing. The laying process could probably be achieved by a loom-like machine: thread the string around knobs at the edge of the disc, and then cut around the outside.
Is there some sort of 3D printer for pasta?
[deleted]
[deleted] I'm guilty of only reading half the article.
Read closer:
>Recently, she’s begun making su filindeu for three restaurants in the area – and in the process, offering non-pilgrims a chance to taste it for the first time.
>Recently, she’s begun making su filindeu for three restaurants in the area – and in the process, offering non-pilgrims a chance to taste it for the first time.
The article specifically says the two provide it to the restaurants. It's right there in the text, they talk about it for two paragraphs...
Bit out of the way for me in Massachusetts but looks delicious.
Google cache to the rescue for UK users:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_Uzr_k0...
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_Uzr_k0...
Thanks. But more generally WTH? How does their policy make any sense?
For non uk people: """BBC Worldwide (International Site)
We're sorry but this site is not accessible from the UK as it is part of our international service and is not funded by the licence fee. It is run commercially by BBC Worldwide, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the BBC, the profits made from it go back to BBC programme-makers to help fund great new BBC programmes. You can find out more about BBC Worldwide and its digital activities at www.bbcworldwide.com. """
For non uk people: """BBC Worldwide (International Site)
We're sorry but this site is not accessible from the UK as it is part of our international service and is not funded by the licence fee. It is run commercially by BBC Worldwide, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the BBC, the profits made from it go back to BBC programme-makers to help fund great new BBC programmes. You can find out more about BBC Worldwide and its digital activities at www.bbcworldwide.com. """
The BBC is forbidden from undertaking any commercial activity within the UK in their charter. While obviously quite integral to the way the BBC works and is able to work, this is a weird side-effect of that restriction.
Reminds me of the situation in Germany, where private publishers and TV networks managed to successfully shoot down some of the better ideas of how to use public television. Result is that public television networks are forbidden to produce in-depth articles accompanying their reports and may only expose free internet access to their shows within tight limits.
The compromises reached seem more and more like "you may produce content using public money as long as you make sure the content stays sufficiently sucky".
The BBC charter is being renewed soon, and there is certainly a faction within Government that is trying to push the BBC in this direction.
Except the BBC do undertake commercial activity within the UK through BBC Worldwide, by selling TV programmes and films through the BBC Store and on DVD/BD.
Some of the BBC websites that were previously blocked in the UK (such as Future and Earth) are now available because they don't show adverts to UK visitors.
Surely the same can be done for the Travel website (show adverts to everyone except UK visitors).
Some of the BBC websites that were previously blocked in the UK (such as Future and Earth) are now available because they don't show adverts to UK visitors.
Surely the same can be done for the Travel website (show adverts to everyone except UK visitors).
The error page would be a hell of a lot less irritating if they just said that, instead of the nosensical Newspeak they've chosen instead.
I'm not sure, but I think it's the tories' bizarre fixation with making the BBC terrible in order to prove that state funded things are worse than their private sector counterparts.
You see it every now and again when they want to apply even more rules to prevent the BBC making programmes they think might be successful/popular[1]
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/may/11/john-whittingd... (the best example I could find: government "forced to deny" what I suspect. Something something yes minister.)
You see it every now and again when they want to apply even more rules to prevent the BBC making programmes they think might be successful/popular[1]
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/may/11/john-whittingd... (the best example I could find: government "forced to deny" what I suspect. Something something yes minister.)
I wonder if there's some kind of restriction meaning they aren't allowed to serve ad content to those living in the UK (and presumably paying a licence fee) and thus the simplest option is just to wall off users based in those locations
Yep, this is exactly right.
As this is a link to the BBC, I thought this might be talking about the spaghetti tree incident of 1957: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti-tree_hoax
Didn't know there are BBC pages that you cannot see in the UK! http://i.imgur.com/rUaBZPy.jpg
The international part of the BBC is funded by ads. The simplest solution to not make British citizens pay for it is to block it. Apparently.
http://pastebin.com/AZ2kda1e
Because the BBC can kiss my arse if it thinks anything it produces isn't mine.
Because the BBC can kiss my arse if it thinks anything it produces isn't mine.
I find it reprehensible that the article is blocked to UK users. BBC worldwide wouldn't exist without license fee payers, yet they feel like they can block content from us.
If it is any consolation: In Germany people are going to prison because they refuse to pay the mandatory "television tax" despite not having a TV (or any interest in watching the garbage that ARD and ZDF produce).
Meanwhile, the top bureaucrats of ARD/ZDF earn salaries in the region of EUR 600000 per year.
Meanwhile, the top bureaucrats of ARD/ZDF earn salaries in the region of EUR 600000 per year.
A weird consequence of the BBC charter. The article has ads on it, so they're obliged to adblock it for you. Apparently they gave up maintaining the separate ad-free version: http://www.bbc.co.uk/faqs/online/website_changes
I'll write in and complain about this for sure; I pay a tax to see and fund the BBCs content and directly or indirectly that pays for BBC worldwide to exist. It's like saying I funded a startup and they did well from that and set up a subsidiary with the money and that subsidiary blocked me because of this. It wouldn't be defensible.
BBC Worldwide returns a profit to the BBC of about 150 million pounds. Your TV license isn't paying for it: it's lowering your TV license.
You should write to your MP rather than the BBC.
Now I'm super curious about it, but the preparation in sheep broth and pecorino is one of the best combinations to have with pasta IMHO, very promising.
Btw if you've never been to Sardinia make sure you visit at least once in life, you won't regret it :)