Ask HN: How does unlimited vacation policy work in your company?
I've been reading about this, but I would value an honest opinions from employees working on companies where this policy exist. Do you take more time than you would on another company? What the average feeling? As there a lot of abuse? Does it work as good as advertised?
42 comments
I usually wait about a week before activating my unlimited vacation. This frees me up to look for my next job, which must also offer an unlimited vacation policy. I've been doing this for about thirteen months. I project my annual income this year will be around $1.7 million. So far, it has worked very well and I would recommend the arrangement to anyone.
Perhaps the most brilliant aspect of this scheme is that it will continue to sustain your legacy in perpetuity.
Your children, and their children. They're all taken care of.
Your children, and their children. They're all taken care of.
Have you considered outsourcing? Hire a few more more smart people to activate their unlimited vacations. Split the winnings. Imagine the cash if you did it recursively!
"What do you do for work?"
"We're on vacations."
I think you misuse the expression "unlimited vacation". I like your version more.
"Unlimited Vacation" is sometimes used to mean "no vacation" or "very limited vacation". But I don't think that's actually the way many employers think about it.
It's more often a way to say "no accrued vacation". That's important in California, when you leave a job, your employer has to pay out unused and accrued vacation. That can be a big liability to keep on the books, so you can remove it with an unlimited vacation policy.
So it's just an accounting thing.
It's more often a way to say "no accrued vacation". That's important in California, when you leave a job, your employer has to pay out unused and accrued vacation. That can be a big liability to keep on the books, so you can remove it with an unlimited vacation policy.
So it's just an accounting thing.
Just a fuck over the employee for 4% of their earnings thing.
Pretty much this. I always keep about 7 days of vacation banked as a insurance policy. One of my friends was laid off with about half his company, and everyone got "paid through the end of the week." He had a 5 day vacation planned the next week, and they weren't going to pay him for the vacation he had notified them of months in advance. I have an emergency fund, but I'd prefer to save that money and get an actual paycheck if anything happens.
On top of that, banked vacation is a way to have some funemployment if you get an extra week between leaving on job and starting another. It's basically like taking a vacation anyways.
On top of that, banked vacation is a way to have some funemployment if you get an extra week between leaving on job and starting another. It's basically like taking a vacation anyways.
I like our unlimited vacation policy.
- It's not used to push us to work more, I don't feel pressure not to take holiday.
- The founders set the example by each taking 2x 2 week holidays a year, plus other days/long weekends here and there.
- Most of the office shuts down for the 1.5-2 weeks over Christmas.
- I've noticed a few people who take a bit more holiday than others, but I don't think they are over-stepping what's reasonable.
- I get much more benefit out of our policy being flexible than unlimited. I've taken holiday at a day's notice before.
- It's not used to push us to work more, I don't feel pressure not to take holiday.
- The founders set the example by each taking 2x 2 week holidays a year, plus other days/long weekends here and there.
- Most of the office shuts down for the 1.5-2 weeks over Christmas.
- I've noticed a few people who take a bit more holiday than others, but I don't think they are over-stepping what's reasonable.
- I get much more benefit out of our policy being flexible than unlimited. I've taken holiday at a day's notice before.
Have you worked at any other employer where you needed more than N days notice for an N day long vacation? I've found both vacation policies to be the same: I get as much vacation as my manager will approve (sometimes with an upper-limit). The limit doesn't seem to affect flexibility.
We have an unlimited policy. People seem to take 3-4 weeks on avg by my guess, although I'd love to see hard numbers on that as I suspect it is higher, however we don't track it.
There have been situations where it was abused, and those people tend to not last long. In general if your work is getting done well, nobody cares. If you start dropping the ball it becomes a discussion around performance expectations.
As a type A person, it has been hard for me to learn that it is OK, and in fact important, for me to take time off.
What has worked better for me is to use it more as a gradual thing. I might take a day off or work a short day a few times a month. It helps me fit life in, get more rest, and manage stress better because I'm releasing that pressure more frequently than if I waited several months to take a week off.
I still might take longer stretches off, but don't feel any where approaching what I can only describe as desperation for a break I felt at previous jobs.
As a result I'm sure my productivity is higher, and I'm much less interested in fielding the frequent recruiter pitches I get because most of the time I know the companies they are pitching could never offer me something comparable.
If you find a company that implements this policy well, it quickly becomes one of the most valuable parts of your comp package. At a certain point in life the value you place on your free time increases dramatically. So a benefit like this grows in value at the rate for which the value you place on your time increases.
There have been situations where it was abused, and those people tend to not last long. In general if your work is getting done well, nobody cares. If you start dropping the ball it becomes a discussion around performance expectations.
As a type A person, it has been hard for me to learn that it is OK, and in fact important, for me to take time off.
What has worked better for me is to use it more as a gradual thing. I might take a day off or work a short day a few times a month. It helps me fit life in, get more rest, and manage stress better because I'm releasing that pressure more frequently than if I waited several months to take a week off.
I still might take longer stretches off, but don't feel any where approaching what I can only describe as desperation for a break I felt at previous jobs.
As a result I'm sure my productivity is higher, and I'm much less interested in fielding the frequent recruiter pitches I get because most of the time I know the companies they are pitching could never offer me something comparable.
If you find a company that implements this policy well, it quickly becomes one of the most valuable parts of your comp package. At a certain point in life the value you place on your free time increases dramatically. So a benefit like this grows in value at the rate for which the value you place on your time increases.
The only company I had offer this used it as a lever to pressure us to work more and longer. Then encouraged peer shaming if we took a day much less a week off. At that job I had two weeks off in two years.
To be a tiny bit fair, this was a tiny company with 3 engineers doing the whole lean startup thing.
I'd say the situation was valuable to learn from because it was apparent (in hindsight) from the first interview how bad the company culture was. So the lesson was if the company seems to be informal and unstructured, one person wearing five hats, Project Manager is also your designer or lead coder etc... (and I realize I just describe a huge number of startups. Use your best judgement).
tl;dr its more likely to be abused by the company than the employee
To be a tiny bit fair, this was a tiny company with 3 engineers doing the whole lean startup thing.
I'd say the situation was valuable to learn from because it was apparent (in hindsight) from the first interview how bad the company culture was. So the lesson was if the company seems to be informal and unstructured, one person wearing five hats, Project Manager is also your designer or lead coder etc... (and I realize I just describe a huge number of startups. Use your best judgement).
tl;dr its more likely to be abused by the company than the employee
From this thread:
>> a few people who take a bit more holiday than others, but I don't think they are over-stepping what's reasonable
>> as long as you're being reasonable, and you communicate your intention early enough for deadlines
>> If it is being abused your manager will speak to you about it.
Maybe it is just me but I miss the "unlimited" part of the "unlimited vacation policy". Unlimited is not always reasonable, non-abusive, manager-happy-making. It is unlimited.
For example at my last job I took over a process where my predecessor struggled getting things done and missed deadlines regularly. I am not a genius but too lazy so I automated the hell out of the process so that I only needed 3-4 days a month to accomplish everything on time. With an "unlimited vacation policy" I just could have taken the other 16 days of the month off. But seriously, does this actually happen to anyone? Only if is your business and you are your own boss.
[edit] Hier in Germany it is common to have 30 days holiday a year. Nobody would call it "unlimited" but "not enough".
>> a few people who take a bit more holiday than others, but I don't think they are over-stepping what's reasonable
>> as long as you're being reasonable, and you communicate your intention early enough for deadlines
>> If it is being abused your manager will speak to you about it.
Maybe it is just me but I miss the "unlimited" part of the "unlimited vacation policy". Unlimited is not always reasonable, non-abusive, manager-happy-making. It is unlimited.
For example at my last job I took over a process where my predecessor struggled getting things done and missed deadlines regularly. I am not a genius but too lazy so I automated the hell out of the process so that I only needed 3-4 days a month to accomplish everything on time. With an "unlimited vacation policy" I just could have taken the other 16 days of the month off. But seriously, does this actually happen to anyone? Only if is your business and you are your own boss.
[edit] Hier in Germany it is common to have 30 days holiday a year. Nobody would call it "unlimited" but "not enough".
Is this how it works for startups as well? Which part of Germany are you referring to?
It is common for big corps. Here in Bavaria some employers give you only 27 days of holiday because we have 3 more days of christian holidays. In the car industry you have additionally only a 35-38 hour work week.
Biased subjective opinion: no sane person having any other option would work for a start-up. Therefore the start-up employees have worse conditions. My ex-GF had 24 holidays and a 40+8 hour work week (+8 hours for unpaid overtime if necessary).
Biased subjective opinion: no sane person having any other option would work for a start-up. Therefore the start-up employees have worse conditions. My ex-GF had 24 holidays and a 40+8 hour work week (+8 hours for unpaid overtime if necessary).
It is not so much "common" as it is "law". The law mandates a certain amount of holidays in addition to national holidays.
Its 23 or something along those lines of mandated "days off".
Its 23 or something along those lines of mandated "days off".
I work for a company that doesn't advertise unlimited vacation, and instead phrases it as "we don't have a formal vacation policy, it's all up to your supervisors discretion."
Basically, as long as you're being reasonable, and you communicate your intention early enough for deadlines and staffing to be adjusted accordingly, they're cool with it.
The entire company culture supports a healthy work/life balance and leadership constantly drills it into everyone's head that what's important are results and not work. They also lead by example... my supervisor just took a three week vacation, where he was almost completely out of contact. His projects all slowed down and he had a lot of stuff to catch up on when he got back, but it definitely wasn't frowned upon. If anything, it was encouraged.
Basically, as long as you're being reasonable, and you communicate your intention early enough for deadlines and staffing to be adjusted accordingly, they're cool with it.
The entire company culture supports a healthy work/life balance and leadership constantly drills it into everyone's head that what's important are results and not work. They also lead by example... my supervisor just took a three week vacation, where he was almost completely out of contact. His projects all slowed down and he had a lot of stuff to catch up on when he got back, but it definitely wasn't frowned upon. If anything, it was encouraged.
I think taking 4-5weeks off spread out throughout the year is the best way to do it. If it is being abused your manager will speak to you about it. The best thing about unlimited vacation policy is that all your days off are PAID. Most companies will only give you 2weeks PTO. But imagine getting 4-5weeks off PTO. Thats how I see it.
It is as good as advertised if used correctly.
It is as good as advertised if used correctly.
It is as good as advertised if used correctly.
They say the same thing about birth control. Yet, real world stats consistently differ markedly from "if used correctly" stats.
They say the same thing about birth control. Yet, real world stats consistently differ markedly from "if used correctly" stats.
In the US, hardly any software companies offer less than 3 weeks vacation to new employees. I've never heard of 2 weeks.
This makes me think of ISPs and the whole conundrum with their false definitions of unlimited. How do you abuse unlimited?
I've worked at three weeks,5 weeks and unlimited. The reality is that I like 5 weeks more than Unlimited. When I was working unlimited I actually was able to take as much time as I wanted, but it was obvious that different employees had different trust levels in the vacation system. No one would stand in my way, but it was very apparent that certain people were just not comfortable either with me leaving or with taking the time they need themselves. Additionally having unlimited time off means that you do not earn that value when you quit. I have used the money from saved up vacation to sponsor my next job search. This gives me enough time 2 develop new interests and gain traction on a new project.
When I was working at 5 weeks, I generally average using four weeks a year
When I was working at 5 weeks, I generally average using four weeks a year
I've taken 6 weeks so far this year, and I'll take another week by the end of the year. I got married this year, then I went on a honeymoon. I was also in 8 other weddings over the past four months, each of which required a couple of days off for travel. My boss has been extremely understanding, and I don't think it's hurt me professionally at all. When I get back from my vacation, I work a little harder for a similar amount of time. That said, I've completed all my official tasks (and then some), so there's little to complain about, I think.
Where I am now, it depends a lot on your individual initiative and your immediate manager.
We have some departments where everyone takes 4-6 weeks per year, and others where I'm pretty sure only a couple people have been out for longer than a sick day here and there. That's down to the individual managers, I think, and an example of a good way for an unlimited vacation policy to fail. Top brass certainly sets an example of taking plenty of time.
My manager has been on my case lately, encouraging me to take more PTO (I've probably already taken 15 days so far this year, and it'll be close to 25 by Dec 31). The guy who sits on one side of me takes 3-4 day weekends every couple weeks all summer so he can go camping and hiking with his girlfriend. The guy who sits on the other side took two weeks mid-year and that's it. A guy who regularly showed up about 2-3 times per week and worked half days when he did (despite being hired as a full-time employee) was let go.
For me it's better than the last place. 10 days combined PTO minus a medical or family event and one bad cold doesn't even leave you with enough time to take a full week vacation, let alone an additional mental health day here and there. Perfect recipe for burnout.
Here, at the end of a particularly rough stretch, I've learned not to feel the least bit guilty about taking an extra day to recover, or even to do so multiple times in a month. I come back motivated and focused instead of exhausted and resentful, and get more done in 4 good days than I would in 5 miserable ones.
We have some departments where everyone takes 4-6 weeks per year, and others where I'm pretty sure only a couple people have been out for longer than a sick day here and there. That's down to the individual managers, I think, and an example of a good way for an unlimited vacation policy to fail. Top brass certainly sets an example of taking plenty of time.
My manager has been on my case lately, encouraging me to take more PTO (I've probably already taken 15 days so far this year, and it'll be close to 25 by Dec 31). The guy who sits on one side of me takes 3-4 day weekends every couple weeks all summer so he can go camping and hiking with his girlfriend. The guy who sits on the other side took two weeks mid-year and that's it. A guy who regularly showed up about 2-3 times per week and worked half days when he did (despite being hired as a full-time employee) was let go.
For me it's better than the last place. 10 days combined PTO minus a medical or family event and one bad cold doesn't even leave you with enough time to take a full week vacation, let alone an additional mental health day here and there. Perfect recipe for burnout.
Here, at the end of a particularly rough stretch, I've learned not to feel the least bit guilty about taking an extra day to recover, or even to do so multiple times in a month. I come back motivated and focused instead of exhausted and resentful, and get more done in 4 good days than I would in 5 miserable ones.
I worked for an established software company (~3000 employees) that had unlimited vacation.
How much vacation people really took varied greatly by managers and which part of the organization you were in.
There were no minimums and no real philosophy or best practices around vacation. The core engineering groups had good managers and people took 4 - 6 weeks (spread over the year) and would completely disconnect from work during their vacations. People could take 2-3 weeks in a row without much fuss being made.
With exception of support, if you were in a customer facing role your manager was probably a workaholic and made it very difficult to take a vacation or even enjoy vacation when you took it. However, they would constantly trot out unlimited vacation as a perk and act like it was your fault for not taking vacation. I knew people who disconnected for a week for the birth of their baby and felt completely unprotected and overwhelmed with backload of work by the time they came back.
I'm never going back to a company with "unlimited" vacation again unless I know the group I report into strongly protects and encourages at least 3+ weeks of vacation
How much vacation people really took varied greatly by managers and which part of the organization you were in.
There were no minimums and no real philosophy or best practices around vacation. The core engineering groups had good managers and people took 4 - 6 weeks (spread over the year) and would completely disconnect from work during their vacations. People could take 2-3 weeks in a row without much fuss being made.
With exception of support, if you were in a customer facing role your manager was probably a workaholic and made it very difficult to take a vacation or even enjoy vacation when you took it. However, they would constantly trot out unlimited vacation as a perk and act like it was your fault for not taking vacation. I knew people who disconnected for a week for the birth of their baby and felt completely unprotected and overwhelmed with backload of work by the time they came back.
I'm never going back to a company with "unlimited" vacation again unless I know the group I report into strongly protects and encourages at least 3+ weeks of vacation
I worked in one place where the policy changed while I was there. In my experience, people don't take any more time than they did under the prior 'limited' vacation policy. The only beneficiary was the company, which wiped accrued vacation (a liability) from it's balance sheet, making it look more attractive as an acquisition target.
Unlimited Vacation Works at my Company
- because people talk about their trips and vacations
- because people are motivated to work ( example, somebody traveling for a month teleworked for a week to not be way out of the loop
- most people take a long weekend, week, and more rarely, 2 weeks at a time.
The biggest concern from Management is that employees feel guilty, aren't taking enough vacation (there isn't a lot of abuse.) Management actively encouraged one of my 2 week vacations to set an example to show people to take vacations.
Does it work as well as it is advertised? From an accounting perspective, yes. From a not worrying about managing people's vacation time yes. From a team management for meetings / projects - not always - more/better notice could work better. From a people perspective? the same people who overwork themselves tend to not take vacations - so not the best for keeping stress down.
- because people talk about their trips and vacations
- because people are motivated to work ( example, somebody traveling for a month teleworked for a week to not be way out of the loop
- most people take a long weekend, week, and more rarely, 2 weeks at a time.
The biggest concern from Management is that employees feel guilty, aren't taking enough vacation (there isn't a lot of abuse.) Management actively encouraged one of my 2 week vacations to set an example to show people to take vacations.
Does it work as well as it is advertised? From an accounting perspective, yes. From a not worrying about managing people's vacation time yes. From a team management for meetings / projects - not always - more/better notice could work better. From a people perspective? the same people who overwork themselves tend to not take vacations - so not the best for keeping stress down.
My company is cool in that it has unlimited vacation, but you are mandated to take one week off per quarter.
I would be lying if I said that even that gets everybody taking 4 weeks off, but the founders have made themselves very clear, so I feel quite safe following the rules and then some.
The development team actually has come up with an (internal to the team) target of 6 weeks. I'll probably be successful in hitting it by the end of the year.
In addition we have most of the holidays off that you'd expect.
I would be lying if I said that even that gets everybody taking 4 weeks off, but the founders have made themselves very clear, so I feel quite safe following the rules and then some.
The development team actually has come up with an (internal to the team) target of 6 weeks. I'll probably be successful in hitting it by the end of the year.
In addition we have most of the holidays off that you'd expect.
Where I currently work, we have vacation time around 4 weeks every year. On first year I dont think I ever took any vacations, just a day off from time to time. Now I've been taking vacations 2 weeks in summer and 2 weeks in winter, more or less. Its also more flexible and I can take a day off if I just ask on a timely manner. I dont actually do that very often, I work a lot, but its just a great feeling - knowing that you can take a break sometimes. That feeling alone can kinda motivate you to work and be more productive.
Previous -
Ask HN: Are open vacation policies a scam? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12334926
Ask HN: Are open vacation policies a scam? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12334926
In practise, it means that holidays days are simply not accounted for.
Otherwise, it's like usual, tell your team in advance and write the days on the calendar.
There is no abuse. If anything, most people don't take enough because it's not accounted for && there is noone to remind them of "you gotta take 10 days before January [or your current quota be lost][and you're gonna burn out because you work too hard]"
Otherwise, it's like usual, tell your team in advance and write the days on the calendar.
There is no abuse. If anything, most people don't take enough because it's not accounted for && there is noone to remind them of "you gotta take 10 days before January [or your current quota be lost][and you're gonna burn out because you work too hard]"
At Reflect (https://reflect.io), we have an unlimited policy with a required minimum.
I have unlimited vacation time - I'm a private contractor. But when I take a day off, its just 'not getting paid'. So I have to be careful, try to get some hours in every day.
Had it in a start-up a few years ago. It felt like it wasn't real. Not a clear culture about taking it and exactly what we needed to do to cover for ourselves when there are so few people in the company overall.
we have unlimited vacation, and a formal month long sabbatical every X years.
So far, its been great. Vacation approval is up to your manager. Ive never had or heard of a request getting denied. People are responsible; it works.
I do wish there was a 2 week minimum policy just on principle, but it wouldn't really change anything.
So far, its been great. Vacation approval is up to your manager. Ive never had or heard of a request getting denied. People are responsible; it works.
I do wish there was a 2 week minimum policy just on principle, but it wouldn't really change anything.