Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-taxicommission-idUSKBN13Q3YD
220 comments
So, they want to encourage ride-sharing in the original meaning - carpooling. Not the "taxi company in disguise" meaning. Sounds fair enough to me.
For context, the taxi regulation in Sweden is very light. There is no medallion system limiting the number of cars, and no regulation of prices. You just need an extended driver's license, an approved taxi-meter (same as how grocery stores need their scales to be approved), and the pricing plan listed clearly in the window.
There has been quite a bit of criticism of this lack of regulation, since some private taxi drivers will prey on tourists by overpricing their services by 3x and waiting at airports. Since their rip-off prices are displayed right there in the window, it's fully legal. Tourists don't know the typical price of a taxi, and fresh off an airplane are not sure what the local currency rate is (Sweden isn't on the Euro), and hence get ripped off.
For context, the taxi regulation in Sweden is very light. There is no medallion system limiting the number of cars, and no regulation of prices. You just need an extended driver's license, an approved taxi-meter (same as how grocery stores need their scales to be approved), and the pricing plan listed clearly in the window.
There has been quite a bit of criticism of this lack of regulation, since some private taxi drivers will prey on tourists by overpricing their services by 3x and waiting at airports. Since their rip-off prices are displayed right there in the window, it's fully legal. Tourists don't know the typical price of a taxi, and fresh off an airplane are not sure what the local currency rate is (Sweden isn't on the Euro), and hence get ripped off.
"So, they want to encourage ride-sharing in the original meaning - carpooling. Not the "taxi company in disguise" meaning. Sounds fair enough to me."
I'm not necessarily a fan of Uber, but this is ridiculous.
If 'taxis' are legal in Sweden then there's no reason Uber should not be able to operate so long as they are obeying the laws.
Ostensibly, this is about a specific issue - distance travelled and the lack of ability for tax authorities to measure that.
Two things to know about Nordic countries:
1) They are super, super aggressive when it comes to tax things. Cheating on taxes is worse than some major crimes!
2) They are culturally anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial. I know this may seem odd given the number of startups - but their version of 'socialism' is cultural. To be a 'business person' or 'CEO' or to 'have your own company' even up until the 1980's was considered a 'dirty word'. They have this view that 'private business is immoral' in some ways. It's hard to describe. They are just default skeptical of anyone creating a business. Obviously that has evolved a lot over the last 30 years, but the underlying cultural phenom is still kind of there.
Finally - this may simply be political. Taxi entities around the world are trying to find ways to get Uber banned, and so they find an issue or concern that gives them a legal footing.
Again, I'm not for or against Uber really ...
I'm not necessarily a fan of Uber, but this is ridiculous.
If 'taxis' are legal in Sweden then there's no reason Uber should not be able to operate so long as they are obeying the laws.
Ostensibly, this is about a specific issue - distance travelled and the lack of ability for tax authorities to measure that.
Two things to know about Nordic countries:
1) They are super, super aggressive when it comes to tax things. Cheating on taxes is worse than some major crimes!
2) They are culturally anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial. I know this may seem odd given the number of startups - but their version of 'socialism' is cultural. To be a 'business person' or 'CEO' or to 'have your own company' even up until the 1980's was considered a 'dirty word'. They have this view that 'private business is immoral' in some ways. It's hard to describe. They are just default skeptical of anyone creating a business. Obviously that has evolved a lot over the last 30 years, but the underlying cultural phenom is still kind of there.
Finally - this may simply be political. Taxi entities around the world are trying to find ways to get Uber banned, and so they find an issue or concern that gives them a legal footing.
Again, I'm not for or against Uber really ...
As a Swede:
1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses.
2) There's no hostility towards entrepreneurs as far as I've seen it, quite the opposite. However people in general do seem to realize that there is a very real tradeoff between business interests and the interests of citizens. You can't have 0% corporate tax and free healthcare and education.
As for Uber Pop, the drivers are not volunteers and are simply either taxed for the profits they make through Uber Pop or they can do actual not-for-profit car pooling.
1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses.
2) There's no hostility towards entrepreneurs as far as I've seen it, quite the opposite. However people in general do seem to realize that there is a very real tradeoff between business interests and the interests of citizens. You can't have 0% corporate tax and free healthcare and education.
As for Uber Pop, the drivers are not volunteers and are simply either taxed for the profits they make through Uber Pop or they can do actual not-for-profit car pooling.
"As a Swede:
1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country."
Yes - thanks for this.
You made my point better than I could.
'Cheating on taxes' is seen as much more of an 'immoral crime' in Scandinavia, than in other places.
In Canada, 'cheating on taxes' is seen like maybe 'cheating a payment' or something. It's 'wrong' obviously, but there is not a 'stigma'.
For whatever reasons (socialized culture, very small community where cause/effect are direct - I don't know? - you tell me :)) - cheating on taxes is a 'much bigger deal', socially, and probably even legally.
But you said it better than I did :)
Yes - thanks for this.
You made my point better than I could.
'Cheating on taxes' is seen as much more of an 'immoral crime' in Scandinavia, than in other places.
In Canada, 'cheating on taxes' is seen like maybe 'cheating a payment' or something. It's 'wrong' obviously, but there is not a 'stigma'.
For whatever reasons (socialized culture, very small community where cause/effect are direct - I don't know? - you tell me :)) - cheating on taxes is a 'much bigger deal', socially, and probably even legally.
But you said it better than I did :)
>You can't have 0% corporate tax and free healthcare and education.
I don't think this was really your point, but is there any particular reason you think there's a need for corporate tax, rather than just taking the same money via capital gains tax?
I don't think this was really your point, but is there any particular reason you think there's a need for corporate tax, rather than just taking the same money via capital gains tax?
You can't have 0% corporate tax
and free healthcare and education.
Taxation is ultimately a social tool to organise how people work as a group/nation, who does what etc.
I think Estonia has or had 0% corporate tax.
Estonia has 20% corporate tax according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_tax . Sweden has 22% according to the same document. Not a world of difference.
Reducing corporate friendliness to the tax rate is overly simplified of course. Sweden is on the whole a rather easy to start a company in, there is one single government entity to deal with and it can all be done online. There are relaxed accounting rules unless you reach a certain size etc.
Reducing corporate friendliness to the tax rate is overly simplified of course. Sweden is on the whole a rather easy to start a company in, there is one single government entity to deal with and it can all be done online. There are relaxed accounting rules unless you reach a certain size etc.
Right, just to clarify. You can have 0% corporate tax rate, you just have to recoup those taxes elsewhere.
And as corporations are benefiting from free education and healthcare they clearly should pay into that system too.
And as corporations are benefiting from free education and healthcare they clearly should pay into that system too.
I think you should study the field of tax incidence a bit.
Corporate tax actually falls on shareholders and workers. It sounds nice: tax those faceless corporations and not us nice citizens. But the actual end result is not necessarily what one may think.
You will of course find lots of material claiming this and that about corporation tax, because people are passionate about it, but for some balance, this is a summary I picked at random:
https://hbr.org/2014/08/who-pays-corporate-taxes-possibly-yo...
(And in case of Sweden, consider that it is a particularly open economy.)
Corporate tax actually falls on shareholders and workers. It sounds nice: tax those faceless corporations and not us nice citizens. But the actual end result is not necessarily what one may think.
You will of course find lots of material claiming this and that about corporation tax, because people are passionate about it, but for some balance, this is a summary I picked at random:
https://hbr.org/2014/08/who-pays-corporate-taxes-possibly-yo...
(And in case of Sweden, consider that it is a particularly open economy.)
> Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country.
Does Sweden use some sort of flat fee tax system -- e.g. take the total annual expenses and divide by the population and everyone pays the same amount? If not, then I'd ask whether it's stealing for a person to make less than another person and therefore pay less taxes.
Does Sweden use some sort of flat fee tax system -- e.g. take the total annual expenses and divide by the population and everyone pays the same amount? If not, then I'd ask whether it's stealing for a person to make less than another person and therefore pay less taxes.
Definition of stealing: Taking something you're not entitled to. People are entitled to make less money and pay fewer taxes as a result.
Do you live here in Scandinavia? Because the comment on entrepreneurship sounds VERY odd for me living here in Stockholm. I've literally never seen an instance of that, quite the opposite. Being a business person is just an occupation as any other, what Swedes are quite against is for you to make 100x to 1000x what your workers earn just by being the owner or CEO of the company.
This sense of equality is well ingrained in society and it's one of the reasons I wanted to live here (after living most of my life in Brazil).
Like another comment in this thread said: Uber can still operate here, you just can't disguise a service making profit as carpooling. I've used Uber quite a lot here and every single time it was just a taxi also running with Uber, I don't think this ban will affect Uber at all.
This sense of equality is well ingrained in society and it's one of the reasons I wanted to live here (after living most of my life in Brazil).
Like another comment in this thread said: Uber can still operate here, you just can't disguise a service making profit as carpooling. I've used Uber quite a lot here and every single time it was just a taxi also running with Uber, I don't think this ban will affect Uber at all.
I work in a start-up hub surrounded by about 50 different start-ups, all trying to make it.
Swedes are PLENTY entrepreneurial.
Swedes are PLENTY entrepreneurial.
>> you just can't disguise a service making profit as carpooling
What does it matter what they call it? Carpooling/ridesharing ...
Aren't you still using a platform someone else built? Is it then your submission that said entity should not be compensated?
What does it matter what they call it? Carpooling/ridesharing ...
Aren't you still using a platform someone else built? Is it then your submission that said entity should not be compensated?
1) They are super, super aggressive when it comes to tax things. Cheating on taxes is worse than some major crimes!
Which major crimes would that be? I'm a Dane, and this sounds ridiculous to me.
2) They are culturally anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial.
That is way overstating it at best, and at worst just BS. True, we in the Nordic countries (or at least in Denmark), don't have quite the reverence for business men and entrepreneurs that Americans seem to have. But we do generally have a great deal of respect for our captains of industry and for people who've succeeded at building something.
Which major crimes would that be? I'm a Dane, and this sounds ridiculous to me.
2) They are culturally anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial.
That is way overstating it at best, and at worst just BS. True, we in the Nordic countries (or at least in Denmark), don't have quite the reverence for business men and entrepreneurs that Americans seem to have. But we do generally have a great deal of respect for our captains of industry and for people who've succeeded at building something.
My (half) brother is Danish.
The 'anti tax' statement is his, told to me, while I was in Denmark. The Danish tax authorities have to know specific things about your status - including if you carpool to work or not, in order to establish your tax status. They tax in a different way there - they establish your 'effective rate', rather than doing tons of deductions. Whether or not you carpool for example, affects your rate. He indicated to me that misrepresenting anything - even a minor issue to the tax authorities - is a fairly serious crime.
To contrast - the last time I met with him in Denmark, I went to dinner with some of his 'friends'. One of them had just gotten out of a 'halfway house' for murder. He spent almost no time in actual jail.
Anecdotal, but legitimate nevertheless.
The 'anti business' attitude in Scandinavian countries is (or was) palpable, esp. among anyone over say 45. It's a much more difficult thing to illustrate, but go ahead and talk to an older Swede. You'll see what I mean.
The 'anti tax' statement is his, told to me, while I was in Denmark. The Danish tax authorities have to know specific things about your status - including if you carpool to work or not, in order to establish your tax status. They tax in a different way there - they establish your 'effective rate', rather than doing tons of deductions. Whether or not you carpool for example, affects your rate. He indicated to me that misrepresenting anything - even a minor issue to the tax authorities - is a fairly serious crime.
To contrast - the last time I met with him in Denmark, I went to dinner with some of his 'friends'. One of them had just gotten out of a 'halfway house' for murder. He spent almost no time in actual jail.
Anecdotal, but legitimate nevertheless.
The 'anti business' attitude in Scandinavian countries is (or was) palpable, esp. among anyone over say 45. It's a much more difficult thing to illustrate, but go ahead and talk to an older Swede. You'll see what I mean.
misrepresenting anything - even a minor issue to the tax authorities - is a fairly serious crime
You have to understand that in Denmark, salaried workers don't have to report their own taxes. Their employers and bank are obliged to do it for them. Only on the rare occasion when the bank or the employer don't have all the information, do most Danes have to edit their tax return. This state of affairs makes it hard to make "an honest mistake", when doing your taxes, and you have to go out of your way to cheat outright.
It's hard to comment on your anecdote about the murderer when I don't know the details, but I can tell you that the penalty for murder in Denmark is between 5 years and life in prison. I think the average sentence is 12 years, but I can't find a source for that.
You have to understand that in Denmark, salaried workers don't have to report their own taxes. Their employers and bank are obliged to do it for them. Only on the rare occasion when the bank or the employer don't have all the information, do most Danes have to edit their tax return. This state of affairs makes it hard to make "an honest mistake", when doing your taxes, and you have to go out of your way to cheat outright.
It's hard to comment on your anecdote about the murderer when I don't know the details, but I can tell you that the penalty for murder in Denmark is between 5 years and life in prison. I think the average sentence is 12 years, but I can't find a source for that.
But isn't the system the same as we have in Finland: although employers report to the tax authorities and deposit PAYE, the tax authorities make a calculation and send it to the employee. But the individual is still responsible for declaring any income. You don't have to send back the report, if it includes everything and you aren't making any deductions. But if you have income that's not known by the tax authorities, and you don't report it, that's a crime.
Yes, that sounds similar. My post was not meant to contrast Denmark with the world, but Scandinavia with the US, where it's the task of the individual to report any income. This makes it easier make mistakes or to cheat.
Sure, but my point on the other hand was that also in Scandinavia, the responsibility of submitting a correct report still ultimately lies with the taxpayer.
> The 'anti business' attitude in Scandinavian countries is (or was) palpable, esp. among anyone over say 45. It's a much more difficult thing to illustrate, but go ahead and talk to an older Swede. You'll see what I mean.
I'm Swedish, my Aunt is a hardcore "thought the USSR was great"-Vänsterpartiet-leftist, but even she does some work as self-employed entrepreneur and when I came of age and started doing contract work breathlessly started telling me about all the stuff I could deduct off my taxes.
I don't think you can generalize this.
I'm Swedish, my Aunt is a hardcore "thought the USSR was great"-Vänsterpartiet-leftist, but even she does some work as self-employed entrepreneur and when I came of age and started doing contract work breathlessly started telling me about all the stuff I could deduct off my taxes.
I don't think you can generalize this.
Comments about aunts and uncles, the more eccentric the better, do wonders for off-topic HN subthreads.
Denmark has gotten a lot better at encouraging business growth, lowering the capital requirement for registering a private company and introducing a new "start-up" business type that costs 1-DKK to register. With that business type you have three years to grow up to the capitalization level of private company and your qualification as such once you do achieve that level is pretty much automatic, at least as far as I can recall from my Knowlege Based Entrepreneurship class from a year ago. The start-up business type is mostly unknown, as it hasn't been marketed very well to the public. I'm glad I got to learn about it because it seems quite a bit easier and cheaper than starting a similar company in the US.
Nonsense. The Nordic countries are the best to start a/do business in [1][2]
[1] http://www.forbes.com/best-countries-for-business/list/
[2] http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings
[1] http://www.forbes.com/best-countries-for-business/list/
[2] http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings
The Nordic companies are not 'the best' at startups, not remotely close.
They have some nice attributes.
I worked for the EU government studying these issues a decade ago.
One of the primary reasons it's hard for startups over there, is that there are really weak eco-systems - you need 'big pocketed' acquierers (among other things) to sustain the model.
Paradoxically, the (admittedly older) 'anti business' attitude, which again doesn't really exist so much among younger people today - doesn't imply that they are 'bad at business'.
I would actually agree, that 'pound for pound' Swedes are decent at startups, but because of other factors - i.e. market size, eco-systems, language, geography ... it's hard for them to compete with Valley startups.
They have some nice attributes.
I worked for the EU government studying these issues a decade ago.
One of the primary reasons it's hard for startups over there, is that there are really weak eco-systems - you need 'big pocketed' acquierers (among other things) to sustain the model.
Paradoxically, the (admittedly older) 'anti business' attitude, which again doesn't really exist so much among younger people today - doesn't imply that they are 'bad at business'.
I would actually agree, that 'pound for pound' Swedes are decent at startups, but because of other factors - i.e. market size, eco-systems, language, geography ... it's hard for them to compete with Valley startups.
You are contradicting yourself and honestly I don't see the point of correcting these falsehoods but I will note that Sweden and other Scandinavian countries are doing pretty damn well internationally considering how small the populations are [1][2][3].
[1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnol...
[2] http://smashdig.com/artikel/10-most-successful-swedish-start...
[3] https://sweden.se/business/10-world-shaping-swedish-companie...
[1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnol...
[2] http://smashdig.com/artikel/10-most-successful-swedish-start...
[3] https://sweden.se/business/10-world-shaping-swedish-companie...
I'm not remotely contradicting myself.
Also - your 'references' are standard 'glam posts' by media outlets, they are pop culture references, not serious measures of the success of businesses.
Those types of articles and the common 'country rankings' are surprisingly not particularly relevant - the later, almost always depend on the criteria chosen.
For example - if you have as your 'startup criteria':
A) The prevalence of educated population B) Access to healthcare C) Quality of Universities
etc.
Then you'll get certain results that may have nothing to do with startups.
My point that 'Swedes are good at startups but Sweden is not the best place for startups' is not remotely contradictory.
Given the choice between Sweden, and any of the American tech-hubs, there is little comparison: America is better.
And it has mostly to do with market size, access to capital, exit opportunities, exchanges, talent pools etc. etc.
+ The scale of American business means there is a level of specialization unheard of almost anywhere else. There are tons of jobs in the Valley that literally don't exist anywhere else.
+ Growing fast and need to hire 1000 developers over the next 5 years? Impossible in Stockholm. Possible in the Valley. Plausible elsewhere.
+ Looking to be acquired? Tons of buyers, many with deep pockets in the Valley. Sweden? Almost none. You'll have to get someone in Germany/UK/USA etc. interested in making a very foreign acquisition. Much harder.
+ Language and culture are barriers. Swedes have access to EU talent, but how many will move? Low rates of mobility in Europe. In America, people move 1000Km for a job, less so in Europe.
+ Want to go IPO? It's a lot easier for an American company.
Do you know why at YC, young entrepreneurs are seriously pressured to simply 'move to the Valley'? It's related to all the reasons above. These are essentially the reason that 'the Valley' is a powerhouse, compared to other places - even when 'other places' may have consistently higher degrees of education etc. etc...
Also - your 'references' are standard 'glam posts' by media outlets, they are pop culture references, not serious measures of the success of businesses.
Those types of articles and the common 'country rankings' are surprisingly not particularly relevant - the later, almost always depend on the criteria chosen.
For example - if you have as your 'startup criteria':
A) The prevalence of educated population B) Access to healthcare C) Quality of Universities
etc.
Then you'll get certain results that may have nothing to do with startups.
My point that 'Swedes are good at startups but Sweden is not the best place for startups' is not remotely contradictory.
Given the choice between Sweden, and any of the American tech-hubs, there is little comparison: America is better.
And it has mostly to do with market size, access to capital, exit opportunities, exchanges, talent pools etc. etc.
+ The scale of American business means there is a level of specialization unheard of almost anywhere else. There are tons of jobs in the Valley that literally don't exist anywhere else.
+ Growing fast and need to hire 1000 developers over the next 5 years? Impossible in Stockholm. Possible in the Valley. Plausible elsewhere.
+ Looking to be acquired? Tons of buyers, many with deep pockets in the Valley. Sweden? Almost none. You'll have to get someone in Germany/UK/USA etc. interested in making a very foreign acquisition. Much harder.
+ Language and culture are barriers. Swedes have access to EU talent, but how many will move? Low rates of mobility in Europe. In America, people move 1000Km for a job, less so in Europe.
+ Want to go IPO? It's a lot easier for an American company.
Do you know why at YC, young entrepreneurs are seriously pressured to simply 'move to the Valley'? It's related to all the reasons above. These are essentially the reason that 'the Valley' is a powerhouse, compared to other places - even when 'other places' may have consistently higher degrees of education etc. etc...
> + Language and culture are barriers. Swedes have access to EU talent, but how many will move? Low rates of mobility in Europe. In America, people move 1000Km for a job, less so in Europe.
I completely disagree with this statement and I'll have to call your sources for it. Even more here in Stockholm, but mobility around Europe for tech jobs is huge, I work at Klarna with 45 different nationalities. Same thing happens at Spotify where I have friends working in.
Hell, even in a small startup and a small to medium-sized company where I know people working at they have people from 10 different countries in Europe, even from richer countries such as Germany, England and Switzerland.
I have friends working in Dublin, London, Berlin, Frankfurt, Zurich and all of them working with different nationalities all the time.
I completely disagree with this statement and I'll have to call your sources for it. Even more here in Stockholm, but mobility around Europe for tech jobs is huge, I work at Klarna with 45 different nationalities. Same thing happens at Spotify where I have friends working in.
Hell, even in a small startup and a small to medium-sized company where I know people working at they have people from 10 different countries in Europe, even from richer countries such as Germany, England and Switzerland.
I have friends working in Dublin, London, Berlin, Frankfurt, Zurich and all of them working with different nationalities all the time.
That's an odd statment. Not all startups need gigantic cash influx nor (oh god) 1000 engineers. 100 million a year businesses can operate with under 100 core developer staff (need more for other operations of course but those are generally easier to hire for).
> 1) They are super, super aggressive when it comes to tax things. Cheating on taxes is worse than some major crimes!
Yes. It is seen as freeloading. Which, in fact, it is[1].
> 2) They are culturally anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial.
That is simply ridiculous, unless you want to define a recognition that externalities are a thing as 'anti-business'. Or put another way, what exactly is it about the profit motive that transforms bad behavior into good behavior? (You may define 'bad behavior' differently, but that's a different question.)
A friend who lives in Sweden, and has spent several years living in the U.S. put it well. Americans are weirdly uptight about sex, believing that public acknowledgment that humans like rutting at least as much as other animals somehow poisons the commons. Swedes are weirdly uptight about preservation of the commons itself.
It isn't anti-business to recognize that commercial activities, like any other activities, effect others in potentially good and bad ways. Every first-world country does. Nordic countries generally value the social norms and structures they've built more than they value enabling the scraping every possible niche for profit.
[1] You may not like the bundle of services provided, but the obligation exists. That's how government works, at least until someone builds that infinite-land machine. I'm really not in the mood for a rerun of Net.libertarians vs. Rousseau, so won't respond to that argument.
Yes. It is seen as freeloading. Which, in fact, it is[1].
> 2) They are culturally anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial.
That is simply ridiculous, unless you want to define a recognition that externalities are a thing as 'anti-business'. Or put another way, what exactly is it about the profit motive that transforms bad behavior into good behavior? (You may define 'bad behavior' differently, but that's a different question.)
A friend who lives in Sweden, and has spent several years living in the U.S. put it well. Americans are weirdly uptight about sex, believing that public acknowledgment that humans like rutting at least as much as other animals somehow poisons the commons. Swedes are weirdly uptight about preservation of the commons itself.
It isn't anti-business to recognize that commercial activities, like any other activities, effect others in potentially good and bad ways. Every first-world country does. Nordic countries generally value the social norms and structures they've built more than they value enabling the scraping every possible niche for profit.
[1] You may not like the bundle of services provided, but the obligation exists. That's how government works, at least until someone builds that infinite-land machine. I'm really not in the mood for a rerun of Net.libertarians vs. Rousseau, so won't respond to that argument.
I am a Swede and I kind of disagree with what you are saying. Maybe creating a company was considered "dirty" in the 80s but nowadays it is completely reversed.
I don't believe anyone is skeptical of anyone creating a business, in fact I think most people would be very positive towards it.
Also, I like Uber and have used it several times when in Stockholm. Altough, more often than not it's a normal taxi that picks you up. Why I like Uber is simply because of the app and that it is so much better than any competition.
Plus, I hope that soon I will get picked up by a robot driver and want to contribute to that happening asap.
I don't believe anyone is skeptical of anyone creating a business, in fact I think most people would be very positive towards it.
Also, I like Uber and have used it several times when in Stockholm. Altough, more often than not it's a normal taxi that picks you up. Why I like Uber is simply because of the app and that it is so much better than any competition.
Plus, I hope that soon I will get picked up by a robot driver and want to contribute to that happening asap.
> "So, they want to encourage ride-sharing in the original meaning - carpooling. Not the "taxi company in disguise" meaning. Sounds fair enough to me."
> I'm not necessarily a fan of Uber, but this is ridiculous.
> If 'taxis' are legal in Sweden then there's no reason Uber should not be able to operate so long as they are obeying the laws.
I think you've misunderstood what was said in the original article. This doesn't make Uber illegal at all in Sweden, they can continue providing taxi services like they have done. However, it makes the ride-sharing part of it, UberPOP for example, illegal. I.e if you want to ride share then that's fine, but you shouldn't be compensated for it. Bringing it back to the original concept of carpooling.
However, Uber Black or UberX would be, from my understanding of it, perfectly fine and they can continue to offer those services.
> I'm not necessarily a fan of Uber, but this is ridiculous.
> If 'taxis' are legal in Sweden then there's no reason Uber should not be able to operate so long as they are obeying the laws.
I think you've misunderstood what was said in the original article. This doesn't make Uber illegal at all in Sweden, they can continue providing taxi services like they have done. However, it makes the ride-sharing part of it, UberPOP for example, illegal. I.e if you want to ride share then that's fine, but you shouldn't be compensated for it. Bringing it back to the original concept of carpooling.
However, Uber Black or UberX would be, from my understanding of it, perfectly fine and they can continue to offer those services.
You are mistaken. UberPOP is already not operational in Sweden. UberX is what's being targeted.
I don't believe so. UberX is not ridesharing, UberPOP is. Also, if I am mistaken, please point me to the source in the article that actually states that they're targeting UberX. The article explicitly mentions UberPOP, if it would affect X I'm fairly certain they would've mentioned that along the way.
The fact that POP is not operational in Sweden at all doesn't mean it automatically targets X. UberPOP is just the ride sharing service most people are familiar with so it makes sense for Reuters to use that as an example, as well as add to the appeal of their article. There are however other companies that do provide for-profit ride sharing services in Stockholm. This just means that there's now going to be a law that prohibits UberPOP and similar for-profit ride sharing services entirely, regardless of if they already operate or not.
As also noted by Uber itself, X is not ridesharing.
UberX is the most popular private car service that Uber has to offer. It's commonly referred to as the "low-cost option" for riders, it allows you to quickly arrive at your destination without breaking the bank.
To contrast with UberPOP
With UberPOP, you can share your UberX and split the fare with multiple users.
That's ride sharing.
The fact that POP is not operational in Sweden at all doesn't mean it automatically targets X. UberPOP is just the ride sharing service most people are familiar with so it makes sense for Reuters to use that as an example, as well as add to the appeal of their article. There are however other companies that do provide for-profit ride sharing services in Stockholm. This just means that there's now going to be a law that prohibits UberPOP and similar for-profit ride sharing services entirely, regardless of if they already operate or not.
As also noted by Uber itself, X is not ridesharing.
UberX is the most popular private car service that Uber has to offer. It's commonly referred to as the "low-cost option" for riders, it allows you to quickly arrive at your destination without breaking the bank.
To contrast with UberPOP
With UberPOP, you can share your UberX and split the fare with multiple users.
That's ride sharing.
UberPOP is what we have in Helsinki. You're able to split the fare with multiple users, whom you know, going the same route as you are. Imho actual ride sharing would be the "taxi" picking up random other people along the way and then the service billing everybody fairly in the end. With UberPOP fare splitting is just a convenience feature of the service, i.e. "instead of you giving me that 5 euro note for your share of this taxi ride, let's do it automatically".
Maybe pop works differently in places which have both it and X though. Those descriptions certainly make it seem like that.
Maybe pop works differently in places which have both it and X though. Those descriptions certainly make it seem like that.
Well, the problem is that for some reason Uber and its drivers do not think they have to live up to the same regulations that taxi drivers do, even though they provide the same exact service and compete for the same customers. That is called unfair competition.
So if you allow Uber to exist in its current form then you'd also have to waive taxi regulations, and I do not see why we would be interested in doing that.
Oh, and I have never experienced the hostility towards entrepreneurship and private business. But of course I wasn't born before the 80's, so can't comment on that :-)
So if you allow Uber to exist in its current form then you'd also have to waive taxi regulations, and I do not see why we would be interested in doing that.
Oh, and I have never experienced the hostility towards entrepreneurship and private business. But of course I wasn't born before the 80's, so can't comment on that :-)
> They are culturally anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial.
http://www.technologist.eu/sweden-the-land-of-unicorns/
Neo-liberalism has gone too far. Anything that limits the company power to do everything is seen as "anti-business". It is not like that, good rules improve fair competition. That rules can hurt ONE or a FEW companies while creating a more healthy system that benefits the rest of companies and citizens.
http://www.technologist.eu/sweden-the-land-of-unicorns/
Neo-liberalism has gone too far. Anything that limits the company power to do everything is seen as "anti-business". It is not like that, good rules improve fair competition. That rules can hurt ONE or a FEW companies while creating a more healthy system that benefits the rest of companies and citizens.
In Norway there is definitely no hostility in any form towards entrepreneurship. In fact it is safer to start a private company here as after closing down the business one still can apply to some social support from the state.
Also there are lot of various free courses about how to do reporting and accounting for new businesses. And one can do the accounting oneself in a spreadsheet and/or free web sites when the business is small.
Also there are lot of various free courses about how to do reporting and accounting for new businesses. And one can do the accounting oneself in a spreadsheet and/or free web sites when the business is small.
I heard that Norway is great for new businesses. Like if you are located outside the city you can pay lower taxes, that's not the case in Sweden. Also the culture seems a bit different when it comes to startups. A friend of mine said that it's easier to attract investors in Norway although the country is smaller, I don't know how deep those differences go but norwegians are probably more open to new companies.
> 1) They are super, super aggressive when it comes to tax things. Cheating on taxes is worse than some major crimes!
Do you think the Greeks, who have made tax evasion a national past-time, are doing it better?
> 2) They are culturally anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial.
In almost any ranking I've seen, Nordic capitals (Stockholm, Copenhagen, Helsinki) scores at the top of the list of startup-friendliness.
> Obviously that has evolved a lot over the last 30 years, but the underlying cultural phenom is still kind of there.
Jantelagen ja. But is it a problem in practice for venture capitalists?
Do you think the Greeks, who have made tax evasion a national past-time, are doing it better?
> 2) They are culturally anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial.
In almost any ranking I've seen, Nordic capitals (Stockholm, Copenhagen, Helsinki) scores at the top of the list of startup-friendliness.
> Obviously that has evolved a lot over the last 30 years, but the underlying cultural phenom is still kind of there.
Jantelagen ja. But is it a problem in practice for venture capitalists?
In most places they are breaking laws and calling it 'disruptive innovation':
Losing crazy amounts of VC cash to [often illegally] compete against traditional companies that must be cashflow positive. It's not a level playing field. Laws exist so that drivers could make a livable wage; Uber is devaluing the medallions they've invested in.
Meanwhile in Europe they're still trying to argue that they're not a taxi company.
There's real disruptive innovation where laws don't exist yet. Digital data mining, surveillance, self driving cars, AI, etc.
Let's not confuse the two.
Losing crazy amounts of VC cash to [often illegally] compete against traditional companies that must be cashflow positive. It's not a level playing field. Laws exist so that drivers could make a livable wage; Uber is devaluing the medallions they've invested in.
Meanwhile in Europe they're still trying to argue that they're not a taxi company.
There's real disruptive innovation where laws don't exist yet. Digital data mining, surveillance, self driving cars, AI, etc.
Let's not confuse the two.
Would you mind providing a source for 2)?
In my experience you couldn't be more wrong.
In my experience you couldn't be more wrong.
Talk to an older Swede.
If you're young, and talk mostly to young Swedes, it's a different story.
Actually, one of the reasons that this may be 'contentious' is because of 'startup culture'.
When I say 'business' - you might be thinking 'startup'.
Surely - it's 'cool' among young people to be at a startup, doing some cool thing like 'games' or 'music'.
But the attitude towards most business, by that I mean what is really 99% of the private economy is still pernicious.
Cultural example - do you know the film 'Girl with the Dragon Tattoo' - the Swedish version? The film is about the follies and evil of an old Swedish noble/industrial family. In the film they are all portrayed as bad, they hate each other, they are greedy, one is a rapist/murderer. Arguably this could be 'populist' anywhere, but it's I think anecdotally relevant for a Nordic country. Across Europe 'business' remember, is the 'bourgeoisie' - i.e. one of the 'offending' classes of 'the revolution'. The view that 'rich people' are basically entirely get their wealth from the economic enslavement of the 'working people' is a cultural epitaph there - and across Europe, to varying degrees.
The idea that people can 'create things of value' an 'exchange them' and 'create jobs' - was not widely held. Wealth was a 'zero sum game' - some had it, other did not and that was it.
As further indirect support, I'll offer the rise of the Social Democrats during the early 20th century, who had enormous power (near total) and influence for decades - and become so entrenched that the were almost de-facto the nature of Swedish/Nordic (and to some extent European) political culture. This did not happen quite as much in the UK, and certainly not in Canada, Australia or the USA.
During the 1980's-1990's they underwent a series of reforms to undo some of the 'socialization of the economy' (same time as Thatcher, Reagan). Same thing happened in Germany in the 1990's, but on different terms.
Anyhow - 'startups among young people' - surely. And surely nowadays the government 'gets' that startups are 'good'. But the cultural aversion to 'big business', I believe, still exists if you factor in all generations, government, institutions etc...
If you're young, and talk mostly to young Swedes, it's a different story.
Actually, one of the reasons that this may be 'contentious' is because of 'startup culture'.
When I say 'business' - you might be thinking 'startup'.
Surely - it's 'cool' among young people to be at a startup, doing some cool thing like 'games' or 'music'.
But the attitude towards most business, by that I mean what is really 99% of the private economy is still pernicious.
Cultural example - do you know the film 'Girl with the Dragon Tattoo' - the Swedish version? The film is about the follies and evil of an old Swedish noble/industrial family. In the film they are all portrayed as bad, they hate each other, they are greedy, one is a rapist/murderer. Arguably this could be 'populist' anywhere, but it's I think anecdotally relevant for a Nordic country. Across Europe 'business' remember, is the 'bourgeoisie' - i.e. one of the 'offending' classes of 'the revolution'. The view that 'rich people' are basically entirely get their wealth from the economic enslavement of the 'working people' is a cultural epitaph there - and across Europe, to varying degrees.
The idea that people can 'create things of value' an 'exchange them' and 'create jobs' - was not widely held. Wealth was a 'zero sum game' - some had it, other did not and that was it.
As further indirect support, I'll offer the rise of the Social Democrats during the early 20th century, who had enormous power (near total) and influence for decades - and become so entrenched that the were almost de-facto the nature of Swedish/Nordic (and to some extent European) political culture. This did not happen quite as much in the UK, and certainly not in Canada, Australia or the USA.
During the 1980's-1990's they underwent a series of reforms to undo some of the 'socialization of the economy' (same time as Thatcher, Reagan). Same thing happened in Germany in the 1990's, but on different terms.
Anyhow - 'startups among young people' - surely. And surely nowadays the government 'gets' that startups are 'good'. But the cultural aversion to 'big business', I believe, still exists if you factor in all generations, government, institutions etc...
You started talking about "anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial", now you moved the goalposts to "big business".
Yes Swedes don't worship people like Trump like Americans do. But people going into business (hairdressers, contract work, running a supermarket, startups) is very different.
Yes Swedes don't worship people like Trump like Americans do. But people going into business (hairdressers, contract work, running a supermarket, startups) is very different.
I didn't say 'big business' - I referred to 'anything that was not a cool startup'.
The guy who wrote "the girl with dragon tattoo" was a leftwing journalist. There is no cultural epitaph of pervasive leftist majority anymore in the Nordic countries. If anything there are much more nationalist conservative right-wing views among the common population because of the recent waves of ME immigrants. The media by an large is still left.
It's true that many west european countries had very strong socialist movements for decades (not as much now though), but there isn't even possible to make such statements that it's somehow became engraved in the culture. Look at the former East Block countries, there it might be true, but then the mistrust of the public to businesses is because of the corruption. Sweden also has a fair bit of corruption, but the authorities together with lobbying organizations and media spread enough propaganda that the country is somehow the least corrupt in the World.
It's true that many west european countries had very strong socialist movements for decades (not as much now though), but there isn't even possible to make such statements that it's somehow became engraved in the culture. Look at the former East Block countries, there it might be true, but then the mistrust of the public to businesses is because of the corruption. Sweden also has a fair bit of corruption, but the authorities together with lobbying organizations and media spread enough propaganda that the country is somehow the least corrupt in the World.
Yeah right, let's all ignore the swedes talking about their own nation and listen to actual facts
Possibly: young Swedes on HN talking about young cool startup culture vs. someone who has lived around the world, in many countries (i.e. strong comparative basis), including a fair bit of exposure to Scandinavia, and worked for the European Government (European Investment Bank) towards establishing comparative basis for entrepreneurial and business clusters in USA and EU.
Someone who has not lived outside of Sweden does not know what how their culture compares relative to others.
General attitudes towards business in Sweden are far, far different than they are in North America, and it's a cultural/historical issue - a point by the way, which is not very contentious, despite how it may seem here on HN.
Someone who has not lived outside of Sweden does not know what how their culture compares relative to others.
General attitudes towards business in Sweden are far, far different than they are in North America, and it's a cultural/historical issue - a point by the way, which is not very contentious, despite how it may seem here on HN.
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some private taxi drivers will prey on tourists by overpricing their services by 3x and waiting at airports. Since their rip-off prices are displayed right there in the window, it's fully legal. Tourists don't know the typical price of a taxi, and fresh off an airplane are not sure what the local currency rate is (Sweden isn't on the Euro), and hence get ripped off.
Typically this should lead to more competition there. Is something preventing that? Taxi thug groups (i.e. cartels), lack of space, ..?
If the price and product are clear, and if there's opportunity for competition, well.. I don't want to sound too libertarian, but, you know... :)
Typically this should lead to more competition there. Is something preventing that? Taxi thug groups (i.e. cartels), lack of space, ..?
If the price and product are clear, and if there's opportunity for competition, well.. I don't want to sound too libertarian, but, you know... :)
Not really. There is an econ paper that explains why (Xavier Gabaix's shrouded prices theory), but the idea is this:
There are some consumers that are naive (tourists in this case) and you can exploit them (go to the airport, and wait until you get a naive guy).
Now, suppose a competitor can find a way to educate consumers: you print pamphlets listing the true costs and hire someone to distribute them everywhere. Now tourists are well informed, but what's the benefit for the competitor? It just did something expensive but now he faces informed guys that will only pay the competitive price. So in equilibrium no one will teach the naive consumers.
There are some consumers that are naive (tourists in this case) and you can exploit them (go to the airport, and wait until you get a naive guy).
Now, suppose a competitor can find a way to educate consumers: you print pamphlets listing the true costs and hire someone to distribute them everywhere. Now tourists are well informed, but what's the benefit for the competitor? It just did something expensive but now he faces informed guys that will only pay the competitive price. So in equilibrium no one will teach the naive consumers.
But isn't this exactly the duty of an entity like, say, the municipality or the airport administration? That's one of the major roles of the state: To step in when there is no profit motive to do the 'right thing'.
Indeed. But I was replying to the pro-libertarian point of view, where municipalities or airport administrations play no role in the taxi industry, which sorts any problems "by itself"
But to do that you have to shoot a monkey dead and take all his bananas
(I may have just come from another, less logical subthread in this topic)
(I may have just come from another, less logical subthread in this topic)
Except you could just put a billboard right there in the airport exit saying how much an average trip to the city center costs for very little money.
I'm pretty sure I've seen exactly this - information booths at airports saying "this is what a licensed cab looks like, this is the fare to downtown, don't be fooled". It's not universal, though, because you'd need to get rights to put up the sign.
Also, at least in Sweden, each licensed taxi company sets their own fares so the problem isn't one of licensed vs unlicensed taxis. A sign saying you shouldn't pay more than X to get down town could work, but who gets to decide what X is?
Or just set up a taxi next to it for 2.5x the price? Or maybe force taxis at airports onto a centralised exchange with a big electronic comparison billboard that everyone can see?
I get that something is preventing that, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. But what is? Can we fix that instead and make the market more accessible?
If not, then regulate away, of course.
I get that something is preventing that, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. But what is? Can we fix that instead and make the market more accessible?
If not, then regulate away, of course.
Or just set up a taxi next to it for 2.5x the price?
There's almost certainly a taxi next to it that only charges X, and all taxis are required to clearly post their prices in their windows. The taxi charging 3X is simply banking on the fact the enough people are operating with incomplete information and will just hop into the first taxi they see without fully understanding how the system works.
There's almost certainly a taxi next to it that only charges X, and all taxis are required to clearly post their prices in their windows. The taxi charging 3X is simply banking on the fact the enough people are operating with incomplete information and will just hop into the first taxi they see without fully understanding how the system works.
In the UK, taxi rates are regionally regulated, with local councils dictating the maximum fare (per mile, per minute waiting in traffic, etc). I thought this was fairly common (in first-world countries).
As a tourist flying into Sweden, it wouldn't have occurred to me that the fare would be unregulated, and that I would need to exercise caution when choosing a licenced taxi.
As a tourist flying into Sweden, it wouldn't have occurred to me that the fare would be unregulated, and that I would need to exercise caution when choosing a licenced taxi.
Or they just don't care, because their company is reimbursing it to them anyway.
Such a simple explanation, makes perfect sense.
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Taxi ranks at (wealthy) airports are almost never subject to market competition. To avoid crowding and crime, some number of drivers or companies get permission to pick people up at the airport, and everyone else is shut out. Other taxis can drop you off, but not pick up a return fare. Usually this comes with fixed prices to avoid extortion, but if it doesn't you get this oligopoly pricing.
Incidentally, this is part of the vehement objection to Uber - on-demand pickup still happens, which breaks the stranglehold on cab ranks.
Incidentally, this is part of the vehement objection to Uber - on-demand pickup still happens, which breaks the stranglehold on cab ranks.
Taxi thugs? Thug means someone who intimidates with threats of violence to get their way.
Why would any taxi-driver feel like upsetting the apple-cart?
Why would any taxi-driver feel like upsetting the apple-cart?
Intimidating competitors. The taxi industry is notorious for this.
Of course it's only a few bad apples that ruin the basket, but it's not unheard of.
Of course it's only a few bad apples that ruin the basket, but it's not unheard of.
> There has been quite a bit of criticism of this lack of regulation, since some private taxi drivers will prey on tourists by overpricing their services by 3x and waiting at airports. Since their rip-off prices are displayed right there in the window, it's fully legal. Tourists don't know the typical price of a taxi, and fresh off an airplane are not sure what the local currency rate is (Sweden isn't on the Euro), and hence get ripped off.
I was in Stockholm over the summer, and prior to going I read about this beforehand on almost every site I visited. Is it the most tourist friendly thing? No, but it is listed in big numbers on the taxi. It only takes seeing a few taxis to get an idea of what is a good price. Everything in Stockholm ended up being expensive, so the taxi was just a minor inconvenience.
I was in Stockholm over the summer, and prior to going I read about this beforehand on almost every site I visited. Is it the most tourist friendly thing? No, but it is listed in big numbers on the taxi. It only takes seeing a few taxis to get an idea of what is a good price. Everything in Stockholm ended up being expensive, so the taxi was just a minor inconvenience.
> You just need an extended driver's license, an approved taxi-meter (same as how grocery stores need their scales to be approved), and the pricing plan listed clearly in the window.
You're omitting the most important thing here: the actual taxi traffic permit. That's the hard part in this process.
You're omitting the most important thing here: the actual taxi traffic permit. That's the hard part in this process.
That's the hard part in this process.
Not in Sweden. There are probably hundreds of taxi companies in Sweden and starting a new one is basically no harder than starting any other company.
Not in Sweden. There are probably hundreds of taxi companies in Sweden and starting a new one is basically no harder than starting any other company.
I'm currently going through this process and there's some bureaucracy involved:
1. You need to show that you have financial resources of 100 000 SEK for one car and 50 000 SEK for all subsequent ones you're registering for. This needs to be reviewed and attested by an auditor. https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/globalassets/global/blanke...
2. You need to be a certified traffic manager. https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/vagtrafik/Yrkestrafik/G...
Nothing super complicated but it's not just getting an extended driver's license like OP says.
1. You need to show that you have financial resources of 100 000 SEK for one car and 50 000 SEK for all subsequent ones you're registering for. This needs to be reviewed and attested by an auditor. https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/globalassets/global/blanke...
2. You need to be a certified traffic manager. https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/vagtrafik/Yrkestrafik/G...
Nothing super complicated but it's not just getting an extended driver's license like OP says.
"ride-sharing" is ride-sharing. That's the only meaning it has.
Ride-hailing is what Uber and Lyft and ArcadeCity and Fare and all the rest of the taxi-apps offer.
Ride-hailing is what Uber and Lyft and ArcadeCity and Fare and all the rest of the taxi-apps offer.
> Uber is currently seeking to convince Europe's top court that it is a digital service, not a transport company, in a case that could determine whether app-based startups should be exempt from strict laws meant for regular companies.
Uber found a way to abide by New York State's existing regulations for a special license for drivers and commercial insurance. Everywhere else it plays make-believe - 'we're just a technology company' - for as long as it can.
The end-game in Europe is probably that Uber Technology will abandon its ambitions to be a not-a-taxi company, and provide its app to local transportation companies who are already regulatory-compliant.
The taxi company that I used to drive for was large enough to build its own modern [1] app-based dispatching system. So they don't need uber's technology anymore.
[1] http://www.taxiwars.org/electronic-taxi-dispatch-v1.0/
Uber found a way to abide by New York State's existing regulations for a special license for drivers and commercial insurance. Everywhere else it plays make-believe - 'we're just a technology company' - for as long as it can.
The end-game in Europe is probably that Uber Technology will abandon its ambitions to be a not-a-taxi company, and provide its app to local transportation companies who are already regulatory-compliant.
The taxi company that I used to drive for was large enough to build its own modern [1] app-based dispatching system. So they don't need uber's technology anymore.
[1] http://www.taxiwars.org/electronic-taxi-dispatch-v1.0/
> The taxi company that I used to drive for was large enough to build its own modern [1] app-based dispatching system.
If nothing else, I appreciate that Uber is pushing taxi companies to develop on-demand hailing apps. I've started seeing local companies advertise them specifically in response to Uber's success.
If nothing else, I appreciate that Uber is pushing taxi companies to develop on-demand hailing apps. I've started seeing local companies advertise them specifically in response to Uber's success.
The end-game you propose has a problem in that they're already companies in that space. It might still make sense for Uber to enter that space, they have the brand recognition others lack. I don't really see how this will generate enough growth and profit to make their investors happy though.
My take on the whole Uber vs Taxis thing is much more about just convenience and user experience.
If the taxis got together and created an app that you could hail a taxi, track its progress, and follow it to your destination, and take the payment automatically, there would have been no (or far less) need of Uber.
I have had several experiences where I called for a taxi, but none arrived. Then I went to the main road and hailed one within minutes.
So it's all about user experience.
If the taxis got together and created an app that you could hail a taxi, track its progress, and follow it to your destination, and take the payment automatically, there would have been no (or far less) need of Uber.
I have had several experiences where I called for a taxi, but none arrived. Then I went to the main road and hailed one within minutes.
So it's all about user experience.
> If the taxis got together and created an app that you could hail a taxi, track its progress, and follow it to your destination, and take the payment automatically, there would have been no (or far less) need of Uber.
They did. Before Uber even existed.
Check out http://www.taxi.eu/en/
They did. Before Uber even existed.
Check out http://www.taxi.eu/en/
The problem is that it doesn't solve the problem with availability. With surge pricing, Uber is able to get you a ride whenever you want, if you are willing to pay for it. With fixed pricing it regularly happens that you won't be able to get a taxi for hours during busy periods. I've just been to Potsdam (Germany, Uber is banned there) and wanted to get a taxi back at night. I tried for 45 minutes by hailing and calling the local number several times, with no success. Either I couldn't reach anyone or they told me they don't have anyone available. Luckily I did this while already walking in the right direction, so I was at the hotel after 80 minutes. With uber I'd have paid more but would've had a ride within 10 min or so.
This ability to always get a ride within a few minutes, no matter where and when, that is what I (and many others) like about uber. Tracking cars in the app is nice but hardly the defining factor.
This ability to always get a ride within a few minutes, no matter where and when, that is what I (and many others) like about uber. Tracking cars in the app is nice but hardly the defining factor.
The most amazing ride service exists in Thailand. All throughout the cities are modified Izuzu trucks with a signature red color (there are other colors for going outside the city) where the truck bed has a covered canopy with two benches (parallel to the direction of travel). To use the service you walk to the road, raise your arm and any available passing red truck will stop and ask you where you're going and then they take you there. The fee you pay is dependent on the distance but generally starts at 20 Bath per person (in the city I live). For context, that's the cost of an ice cream at the park, or water bottle at 7/11.
In comparison, Uber recently came to this city and it's very poor. It's more expensive than a red truck and the only possible extra convenience it could provide is a pick up from your door, but most red truck drivers would arrange that with you too. The Uber drivers here also seem not to have had any training.. I gave up trying to use it when the driver asked me to walk a few hundred meters instead of picking me up where I was on the GPS.. that's not the point! I'm glad to continue using red trucks
In comparison, Uber recently came to this city and it's very poor. It's more expensive than a red truck and the only possible extra convenience it could provide is a pick up from your door, but most red truck drivers would arrange that with you too. The Uber drivers here also seem not to have had any training.. I gave up trying to use it when the driver asked me to walk a few hundred meters instead of picking me up where I was on the GPS.. that's not the point! I'm glad to continue using red trucks
Not sure if the following has already been mentioned in other comments, so apologies if I'm posting redundant information.
The "ride-sharing services" that make profits are already illegal in Sweden according to court decision, since it essentially means "taxi company without the annoying taxes". And consequently UberPOP has been suspended in Sweden along with several other EU countries (as also noted in the original post).
So the new proposal mostly seems like a way to clarify legislation: If you do something systematically to make a profit, we call that business and you pay taxes and follow all other relevant legislation (worker's rights etc). Makes very much sense to me.
The "ride-sharing services" that make profits are already illegal in Sweden according to court decision, since it essentially means "taxi company without the annoying taxes". And consequently UberPOP has been suspended in Sweden along with several other EU countries (as also noted in the original post).
So the new proposal mostly seems like a way to clarify legislation: If you do something systematically to make a profit, we call that business and you pay taxes and follow all other relevant legislation (worker's rights etc). Makes very much sense to me.
Stockholm is full of 'fake' taxis that take you longer routes and charge you more money.
I'd much rather use Uber.
I'd much rather use Uber.
I would use any taxi company that charged me the price up front, paid through the app, calculated based on distance from source to destination and some heuristics about time-of-day, time-of-year, etc.
The driver would be incentivized to get you to your destination quickly and there wouldn't be that awkward tension about whether the guy is taking the best route, driving too slow or whatever.
Even if they occasionally lost money because of freak traffic conditions, I'll bet they would win over a lot of customers.
The driver would be incentivized to get you to your destination quickly and there wouldn't be that awkward tension about whether the guy is taking the best route, driving too slow or whatever.
Even if they occasionally lost money because of freak traffic conditions, I'll bet they would win over a lot of customers.
I feel like the discussions of what Uber does undervalue this. Medallion systems are silly, Uber is using some shady legal arguments, etc, fine. But the actual taxi experience is often terrible.
Last time I took an actual taxi in a new town, the driver spoke next to no English, misunderstood my destination, and got lost 3 times. He tried to drop me off in the middle of the woods because his outdated Garmin told him to. He then tried to charge me ~$80 because of all the bizarre detours, demanded cash instead of a credit card (at the end), and tried to follow me when I objected.
That's exceptional, yeah, but not hugely so. Uber's biggest value to me is the guarantee that the driver will have clear directions, not try to change route, take a credit card, and otherwise not scam me. The cab industry in a lot of places is really corrupt compared to other businesses.
Last time I took an actual taxi in a new town, the driver spoke next to no English, misunderstood my destination, and got lost 3 times. He tried to drop me off in the middle of the woods because his outdated Garmin told him to. He then tried to charge me ~$80 because of all the bizarre detours, demanded cash instead of a credit card (at the end), and tried to follow me when I objected.
That's exceptional, yeah, but not hugely so. Uber's biggest value to me is the guarantee that the driver will have clear directions, not try to change route, take a credit card, and otherwise not scam me. The cab industry in a lot of places is really corrupt compared to other businesses.
It's not that exceptional, I've experienced that in several countries. Of course you could complain, but first you have to know who to contact at the local authority. With uber it's easy. If the driver tries to rip you off, you contact them and get fast and helpful support. And you won't have to pay if the driver decides to take a detour.
That's a common offering here in my home city by any company. You can ring them up and agree a price.
On the technology side... Gett.com seem to be offering an identical solution to Uber with the bonus of fixed price service within certain bounds. Looking at trips within a few miles of the city centre it'll offer a fixed price or "by the meter". Anything too far out however and it'll offer only "by the meter". Still, worth a punt?
EDIT: Bit more of a review...
I've contacted their support in the past and it's been pants. A couple of weeks for a human reply.
I also don't like how you have to decide the tip before the trip ends. Once you're dropped off, 'bing' the money is gone. I guess this is a culture difference but I prefer to decide to tip once I've decided I'm happy with the service. it's not a given.
On the technology side... Gett.com seem to be offering an identical solution to Uber with the bonus of fixed price service within certain bounds. Looking at trips within a few miles of the city centre it'll offer a fixed price or "by the meter". Anything too far out however and it'll offer only "by the meter". Still, worth a punt?
EDIT: Bit more of a review...
I've contacted their support in the past and it's been pants. A couple of weeks for a human reply.
I also don't like how you have to decide the tip before the trip ends. Once you're dropped off, 'bing' the money is gone. I guess this is a culture difference but I prefer to decide to tip once I've decided I'm happy with the service. it's not a given.
Apps for hailing and pre-agreed fares exist with normal taxis in Sweden, at least for normal in-city fares. Also there is no medallion system.
Basically the things that create a market for Uber (limited taxi permits, low tech regular taxi) aren't as pronounced in Sweden as they are elsewhere.
Uber is a taxi company like any other.
Basically the things that create a market for Uber (limited taxi permits, low tech regular taxi) aren't as pronounced in Sweden as they are elsewhere.
Uber is a taxi company like any other.
Regular, real/official, taxi's are easily recognisable by their number plate which is orange with black letters whereas regular vehicles are white with black letters.
You don't have to use fake taxi's, that's your choice. A regular taxi ride in Stockholm and a Uber ride (depending on the time of day) usually don't have a big price difference between them. Unless you want to take one of the Tesla taxi's.
You don't have to use fake taxi's, that's your choice. A regular taxi ride in Stockholm and a Uber ride (depending on the time of day) usually don't have a big price difference between them. Unless you want to take one of the Tesla taxi's.
And taxis sometimes are cheaper than Uber here. I just moved apartments and paid 400 SEK for a taxi van to carry most of my boxes from one part of Stockholm to another, Uber XL was quoting a fare between 550 and 620 SEK.
How is a tourist supposed to know this and avoid getting ripped off?
My brother lives there and explained to me how they can be identified, I otherwise would not have known.
My brother lives there and explained to me how they can be identified, I otherwise would not have known.
I don't think that problem is unique to Stockholm, plenty of other cities have that issue.
Usually when I go to a new location, doing a Google search or two on these things proves helpful. The number plate stuff is on wikipedia and the VisitStockholm.com website for example: http://www.visitstockholm.com/en/Good-to-know/Getting-around... has all the information on taxi's, how to recognise them, what the regulations around them are and other methods of getting around.
A little bit of research upfront can spare you many unpleasant experiences no matter where you're going and regardless of if you know a local or not.
Usually when I go to a new location, doing a Google search or two on these things proves helpful. The number plate stuff is on wikipedia and the VisitStockholm.com website for example: http://www.visitstockholm.com/en/Good-to-know/Getting-around... has all the information on taxi's, how to recognise them, what the regulations around them are and other methods of getting around.
A little bit of research upfront can spare you many unpleasant experiences no matter where you're going and regardless of if you know a local or not.
The issue is that there is no meter on the "fake" taxis. In other countries, you can easily tell if you're being ripped off based on the meter. If it's off, then you can be 100% certain.
> How is a tourist supposed to know this and avoid getting ripped off?
Checking a travel guide before they visit a new country?
Checking a travel guide before they visit a new country?
I'd much rather use Uber because they are subsidising my ride.
"A photo illustration shows the Uber app logo displayed on a mobile telephone, as it is held up for a posed photograph in central London" - that's some caption!
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So I'm guessing that Uber is going to start a Swedish non-profit and pay all profits to their (likely) Irish entity as tech licensing fees and keep moving.
Anyone have a reason to think this won't be the outcome if they can't fight this in court?
Anyone have a reason to think this won't be the outcome if they can't fight this in court?
Uber will not make a profit for decades, break-even is a stretch of credulity.
Unless you think they can somehow turn around $2bn loss on $1.8bn revenue in a very thin margin business.
Unless you think they can somehow turn around $2bn loss on $1.8bn revenue in a very thin margin business.
"Profits are evidence of the creation of social value, not deductions from the sum of the common good."
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/256612/welcome-machine...
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/256612/welcome-machine...
The 600 or so Uber Pop drivers that have been found by the taxation agency have had an extra ~2kUSD added to their taxes.
So I guess Uber is on the clear
The key word is "profits". Uber has certainly never made those.
Is anyone really surprised that Sweden, of all places, is suggesting this?
That's insane, when you know that this is exactly the buisness model of one of France's largest, if not the largest, tech company Blablacar
As a German, I say that is exactly what is wrong with Blablacar, so this is a good thing ;) Blablacar rpesents itself as a service that matches people having a spot in their car and people needing to travel from A to B, and for a long time they did just that. Now they started mandatory booking though their payment system (with the added benefit of insurance, granted), and everything about it has become worse: my girlfriend lives far away from big cities, but relatively close to the Autobahn, and it is much worse now for her to get a ride. Previously she could message people offering rides that should take them close to her place and ask them how much they wanted, now private communication is prohibited, fares seem precalculated, etc...
I guess it is a hard market, sure, but nobody forced them to compete against simple ride sharing websites, but they did, and now try heavy handed tactics once they captured a big piece of the market... /rant
I guess it is a hard market, sure, but nobody forced them to compete against simple ride sharing websites, but they did, and now try heavy handed tactics once they captured a big piece of the market... /rant
Germany prohibits profit from ride-sharing already and has for a long time. It hasn't stopped BlaBlaCar, Mitfahrgelegenheit and so on.
alright but now this time FOR REAL!!!
but why tho?
its ur boi
zzzzzzzzzman(17)
[deleted]
Sorry, but either regulate it as the taxi industry or force the taxi industry to be a profitless business as well. If being professional is defined by having a certificate or such then simply have these services require their drivers provide such certification.
Honestly, just how many ways can we find to prevent innovation from disrupting the protected by daunting regulations from occurring? At times I am beginning to wonder if this is less about protecting current businesses as it is government losing control over its people.
Honestly, just how many ways can we find to prevent innovation from disrupting the protected by daunting regulations from occurring? At times I am beginning to wonder if this is less about protecting current businesses as it is government losing control over its people.
Taxi regulation in Sweden is very lax and it's trivial to become a certified taxi business and get a taxi license. Uber could have the paperwork taken care of by early next week if they wanted, they just doesn't want to comply with the few necessary regulations.
Uber does exist in Sweden, with a service that requires the drivers to have a taxi license. UberPop that was shut down didn't.
> Sorry, but either regulate it as the taxi industry or force the taxi industry to be a profitless business as well
What is the difference between "ride sharing" and "taxi" anyway? Sounds to me like they're saying that ride sharing is people sharing their car, and taxi is if you're for-profit. If Uber wants to be for profit, they need to follow the taxi regulation.
What is the difference between "ride sharing" and "taxi" anyway? Sounds to me like they're saying that ride sharing is people sharing their car, and taxi is if you're for-profit. If Uber wants to be for profit, they need to follow the taxi regulation.
I think in this case it may be a 'fine point - but that fine point is fair.
Tax authorities are gods in Nordic countries.
'No meter' = 'no way for tax guys to know what's what'.
Swedes are not stupid though ... Uber might respond with giving up GPS data of rides to tax authorities. This would not be entirely unreasonable and would quash the specific legal point.
My bet is there is more going on here though ...
Tax authorities are gods in Nordic countries.
'No meter' = 'no way for tax guys to know what's what'.
Swedes are not stupid though ... Uber might respond with giving up GPS data of rides to tax authorities. This would not be entirely unreasonable and would quash the specific legal point.
My bet is there is more going on here though ...
Sure enough, read the text for actual information and you'll see that it's reporting on a press conference about a commission that issued a report. This, through the magic of journalism, turns into "Sweden".